Seanad debates
Wednesday, 11 May 2005
Anti-Social Behaviour: Motion.
5:00 pm
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I move:
That Seanad Éireann:
—notes the increasing incidence of anti-social behaviour in communities throughout the country and the growing public concern arising from the prevalence of anti-social behaviour;
—deplores the failure of the Government to implement any measures to deal effectively with the problem of anti-social behaviour;
—condemns the Government for failing to resource adequately the gardaí, through manpower and finance, with the result that they are currently unable to respond to many incidents of anti-social behaviour and enforce existing laws against perpetrators;
—welcomes recent statements made by Opposition groups which have set out various proposals aimed at dealing effectively with the scourge of anti-social behaviour, and calls for the development of an action plan, which would:
—fully and immediately commence and resource all provisions of the Children Act 2001;
—appoint a Minister of State to co-ordinate a cross-departmental sustained fight against anti-social behaviour;
—launch a major public awareness campaign on anti-social behaviour;
—establish a localised problem-solving court which would operate under the principles of restorative justice; and
—set up within cities and towns a substantial number of local community policing committees.
Anti-social behaviour hurts our society. Every day in many neighbourhoods, it spoils the sense of community, degrades the environment and reduces the quality of life. It chips away at our sense of security, our civic pride and peace of mind. Anti-social behaviour ranges from petty incivility to outright criminal damage to people and property.
While the Government has spoken much about law and order and anti-social behaviour, its actions have failed to match its words. Talk is cheap and the Government's inactivity has wreaked havoc in many parts of the State, where people are afraid to walk the streets at night and where elderly people and families feel imprisoned in their homes because of intimidation and fear of gangs of thugs and louts congregating in their estates. Failure to resource adequately the Garda in manpower and finance, has resulted in the force being unable to respond to many incidents of anti-social behaviour and enforce existing laws against perpetrators. A recent Millward Brown IMS poll revealed that 83% of the population does not believe young people are safe on our streets. The Central Statistics Office revealed that one in 20 households, some 250,000 in total, has experienced vandalism. These statistics are an alarming indictment of the Government and cannot be ignored.
The Minster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell, and sections of the media have focused on anti-social behaviour orders, ASBOs, as the solution to anti-social behaviour on our streets. While the Fine Gael Party believes ASBOs can play a part in tackling the problem, they can only be seen as a small part of a designated strategy. That strategy must see greater co-operation between the community and the Garda at local level and changes to Garda rostering. Garda rostering requires a major review to ensure gardaí are on duty where and when they are most needed.
Community policing must be resourced sufficiently. Within the force it must be seen as important and adequate promotion prospects must apply. How often is it the case where a shortage in any area of Garda manpower results in the community policeman or woman being the first to be withdrawn and allocated to other duties? This culture cannot continue if we are to build lasting trust between the Garda and communities in the battle against crime and anti-social behaviour.
Recently on a visit to Scotland Yard with Oireachtas colleagues, I saw at first hand the value the Metropolitan Police places on community policing and the resources put into it. We visited the London Borough of Bexley where a community safety strategy has been developed, leading to a reduction in youth and alcohol-related disorder and crime in general. The symptoms of crime are examined and preventative measures are put in place. It is important that Ireland examines and learns from best practice in community policing in other countries.
Great importance is placed on community policing by other forces. A sergeant and several constables will be based in various areas. A visible police presence working in a community is a proven crime deterrent. For example, the community police in Bexley are rostered to visit the local schools when people are bringing and collecting their children. It is a way of getting information and knowing what is happening in the community. However, a similar situation does not exist with community policing in Ireland. It must be further developed and seen by gardaí as an area with promotional prospects rather than as a gap-filling assignment.
Last month, the Fine Gael Party launched a national campaign on anti-social behaviour, as did the Labour Party. Fine Gael believes it is time for communities to be given back to the people and the scourge of anti-social behaviour ended. Our campaign will tackle the issue of anti-social behaviour on five distinct fronts. These will involve a tougher, targeted approach to anti-social behaviour, empowering our communities, changing the way the Garda works to achieve maximum efficiency and putting in place preventative measures to deter others from engaging in this destructive cycle of behaviour. All these measures should be facilitated through an overall framework of major and radical initiatives at national level, including the appointment of a Minister of State who would co-ordinate, lead and drive an anti-social behaviour campaign.
We refuse to ignore anti-social behaviour and will stand against it, working side by side with those who refuse to tolerate harassment or intimidation of their neighbours or defacement of our shared public space. We intend to end the culture of poverty and low aspiration that fuels much anti-social behaviour. We need to promote programmes to help marginalised young people discover their role in society and reach their full potential, but at the same time we will punish those who flout the rules. We will make it clear to anyone engaged in anti-social behaviour that there will be consequences. It is the perpetrators, not the law-abiding citizens and community, who must pay the price.
The absence of a central anti-social behaviour fund means moneys used to tackle the problem are currently resourced from several areas of Government, and there is no coherent analysis of their effectiveness. Current funding appears to stand at approximately €25 million. Additional funding will be needed to tackle anti-social behaviour but that funding must be linked to clear policies, targets and outcomes.
There are a number of sources where additional funding is possible. For example, under the Proceeds of Crime Act, the Criminal Assets Bureau holds €73 million. Additional funding could come from moneys received under the dormant accounts fund and the national lottery. On-the-spot fines for anti-social behaviour would result in a steady stream of income which could be used to fund the fight against anti-social behaviour.
Constructive proposals from a number of sources have been made to the Minster. When will he be in a position to introduce legislation to tackle anti-social behaviour? There are a number of provisions in the Children Act 2001 which have not yet been acted on. They involve important aspects such as parental control and will clearly require funding. We are providing the Minister with constructive suggestions on getting the funding. It appears that the Government is not even committed to the Children Act, passed four years ago, or convinced of the policies which it has introduced.
We are being constructive in our suggestions. The time for talk and press releases is gone. What we now need is action which will restore peace to our communities, ravaged by anti-social behaviour. We hope that when it comes to introducing this legislation, the Minister's actions will speak louder than his words.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I second the motion. I welcome the Minister to the House and thank him for attending the debate.
This morning I spoke to a constituent of mine who recently had to leave her local authority home in my constituency because of the torrent of abuse she had to face as a young mother over the past few months. I told her that I would hopefully have an opportunity to speak to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and she asked me to put on the record her experience of the abuse she has suffered in her community and the reasons she had to leave her local authority home.
This woman is on her own with two children. She bettered herself by going to college and has provided a decent home and income for her family. However, she has had to leave her home in the past three weeks because of the sort of behaviour to which Senator Cummins referred. I said I would have an opportunity to speak to the Minister about what is going on in her community. The abuses include shouting, including verbal abuse on numerous occasions while her child was asleep; house burglary; personal items removed from her house; human excrement placed on her porch walls; junkie needles posted through the letter-box and thrown in the back garden while her children were playing; a child's bedroom and the mother's bedroom destroyed with blood; and the living-room and kitchen ransacked. All this was done by a small, targeted, well-organised group of thugs in her community. When a friend of hers who had a British-registered car called to see this woman, he suffered racist abuse, with the words "Brit scum, Brits out" written on his car. The paint work on his car was scraped and his tyres were deflated. Anti-social obscenities were uttered on several occasions. Street yobs were openly drinking in this woman's area. The Garda response was delayed, and assistance has not been obtained by the local authority.
I am not saying this is the experience of every person in similar circumstances in my community or countless other communities throughout the country, but it is typical of the kind of menace we face on an ongoing basis from anti-social activity. The bottom line is that matters are not improving but getting worse. The Minister might say that it is always the job of the Opposition to say that things are getting worse, while paradoxically, the Government will say things are getting better. However, the headline crime figures from my own district in the Tallaght area alone show that from 2000 to 2004, there has been a 300% rise in violent assaults. They are not my figures but those of the Minister. While he might argue that headline crime per head of the population is decreasing, that does not properly reflect the level of intimidation and violence faced daily by entire sections of our community.
I know the Minister wants to tackle the issue — no Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would not want to tackle it — but I ask him to put all his efforts into this area because this is the aspect of crime which is hurting communities. The high-profile cases, the very serious crime we see reported daily on television, represent a reality with which the Minister and the Garda must deal but the anti-social menace people face is a much more real-life experience in terms of their homes and workplaces and we must counter it strongly.
I have appealed to the Minister on a number of occasions to please include a particular project in my own constituency as part and parcel of the Garda youth diversion project. I know that more money has been devoted to this latter project in recent years, but the stay-in-shcool project in St. Aengus's parish in my own area of Tallaght does exceptional work with about 50 youngsters. They might well be out on the tear and out of control were it not for this excellent programme which intervenes, encourages them and ensures that they have some educational opportunity. We are waiting for the Minister's Department to include this project as part of the Garda youth diversion project. Though the Minister no doubt receives many such appeals, I ask him to again consider the application because I can give first-hand testament to the work which this community is doing through the stay-in-school project.
There are some issues which we need to address. Senator Cummins is right to say we need more Garda visibility. That may well require a rostering change in terms of the availability of gardaí on the ground. My own area, Tallaght, has the same population as Limerick city, which has four Garda stations compared to one in Tallaght, and twice as many gardaí. There is no proper proportioning of the available resources within communities, particularly those affected by crime.
Community policing is one of the most important aspects of policing, yet too often where a member of the force is placed in a community, taps into it, recognises the hassle points in it and understands the troublemakers he or she is hived off into another aspect of policing within two years or even 18 months. Community policing must be at the heart of policing work in terms of engaging with communities.
Another issue which should be addressed is repair orders. I am aware of many private individuals whose houses and gardens are in a poor state of repair. Local authorities should have the power to tell those individuals that they must clean up or improve those dwellings or they will be fined. The problem is that youngsters hang out in these places because they are in a state of disrepair. Local authorities should be able to impose an immediate sanction on any private individual who does not keep a house and garden in good repair to ensure these places do not become hang outs for people who wish to cause trouble.
Restorative justice is important. Great strides have been made in other EU countries in implementing restorative justice. Nobody is talking about putting children behind bars. That will only lead to a revolving door syndrome in terms of those children acquiring knowledge of more heinous crime through the prison system, although there are cases where a child must be taken into custody as a means of protecting him or her, the family or the community.
We need to develop restorative justice in this country. The victims of crime want to see an effort made by the perpetrator to give something back, to commit to society and to show that he or she is wrong. The problem is that so many of these out of control youngsters are so brazen in their attitude. They laugh at the gardaí and at their parents, who might be doing their best to bring them up well. They laugh at authority in general. We must encourage the principle of restorative justice if we are serious about this problem.
Finally, I reiterate a point I made on Committee Stage of the Garda Síochána Bill, that a radical Garda recruitment programme is required in the most disadvantaged communities in this city. There are 7,000 local authority houses in my constituency. Not one person from those houses has joined the Garda in recent years. The best way to change the attitude between the community and the Garda is through a radical programme of recruitment in the communities worst affected by crime. The Patton principle should be extended to recruitment procedures in the Republic. Where a community is disengaged from gardaí and feels no sense of loyalty to them, vigilantism and the threat of paramilitarism will fill the void.
A radical programme of recruitment in these communities could be implemented by stipulating that 10% or 15% of all new recruits should come from disadvantaged communities. That would help to break the bad attitude that often exists between such communities and the Garda.
This motion is composed of suggestions from Fine Gael and the Labour Party. More must be done to tackle this problem.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Seanad Éireann" and substitute the following:
"—welcomes the initiative of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in proposing a system of anti-social behaviour orders in December 2004 for inclusion in the Criminal Justice Bill;
—notes the subsequent expression of support in April 2005 for these measures by the larger parties in Opposition;
—commends the Minister for his proposals in the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 to enhance the powers of the Garda Síochána in the investigation and prosecution of offences, in particular his proposal to provide for a fixed charge procedure in relation to lesser public order offences;
—congratulates the Government on the range of measures it has already introduced to deal with public order offences and public disorder;
—welcomes the fact that, despite more precise and accurate recording of headline crime figures by the Garda Síochána, the crime rate in Ireland has fallen from 28.4 crimes per 1,000 in 1995 to 24.4 crimes per 1,000 in 2004;
—welcomes the improving public order situation reflected in the downward trend of assaults causing harm and public order offences since the beginning of 2003;
—welcomes the Government's decision to increase the strength of the Garda Síochána to 14,000 members and the progress which is being made in bringing this increase about;
—notes that the number of gardaí actually fell between 1994 and 1996;
—welcomes the increase by over 90%, from €599 million in 1997 to €1.1 billion in 2005, in the financial resources made available by the Government to the Garda Síochána;
—welcomes the Government's commitment to continued implementation of the measures and interventions provided for in the Children Act 2001 aimed at young offenders and those most at risk of offending;
—welcomes the increase in Garda youth diversion projects from 12 in 1997 to 64 in 2005;
—supports the Minister's proposals in the Garda Síochána Bill to provide for the establishment of joint policing committees and local policing fora as a means whereby local authorities and the Garda Síochána can work in partnership to combat such behaviour;
—welcomes the recent report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights on community policing;
—welcomes legislation already sponsored by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to combat such behaviour, including legislative provisions to combat abuse of intoxicating liquor;
—welcomes the proposals of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to update and modernise the licensing laws with a view to improving compliance and enforcement and combating drunkenness and disorderly conduct, as well as under age and binge drinking; and
—welcomes the further increase in judicial resources provided by the Minister in the Civil Liability and Courts Act 2004."
I will speak later on the amendment.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I thank the House for inviting me this evening to discuss the important issue of anti-social behaviour orders or ASBOs. I abhor the behaviour mentioned by Senator Brian Hayes. It is by no means normal but it is also by no means unheard of.
There are people in society who behave in an anti-social manner. We cannot avoid that fact. There are various remedies available to us but to use the criminal law as the only sanction is not always effective. Article 40.3 of the Constitution states:
1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.
2° The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen.
It is not simply a question of the State establishing a criminal law to prohibit certain behaviours but of taking active steps to protect the victims of anti-social behaviour from the consequences of that behaviour.
To rely purely on the criminal process, which involves proving things beyond reasonable doubt in trials conducted in courts, is unfair to the victims. The reason it is unfair is that the wealthy in our society, should they be confronted with an anti-social neighbour of the type described by Senator Brian Hayes, would hire a private detective to find out the names of the people involved, get a solicitor to secure an injunction against those people and would, inevitably, be in a position to ensure that somebody who breached a court order in the form of the injunction would be sent to jail for contempt. That course is theoretically available to people under civil law where criminal prosecutions, for one reason or another, are not sustainable. However, it is not available to ordinary people unless they have extremely thick wallets. It is open to everybody to dine in the Savoy Hotel in London provided they can afford it. It is wrong to claim that our criminal law, or our civil law, is adequate to deal with anti-social behaviour.
This is not something new. Mr. Justice Rory O'Hanlon said in the High Court, in a case in 1994 involving Deputy Gregory among others, that a person who is the victim of abusive, intimidating or violent language or behaviour on the part of another person should be able to invoke the protection of the legal process without waiting for an actual assault to take place and without having to embark on costly legal proceedings in search of an injunction. He said it seemed reasonable and proper that a person who has been guilty of some form of outrageous behaviour or language should be asked to give guarantees in an appropriate form that it will not be repeated in the future. He went on to point out that this has been the course adopted by the courts for so many centuries that the origin of the jurisdiction is buried in the mists of the common law. He was talking about the right of justices of the peace to bind people over and require them to put up sureties for their future good behaviour.
The concept of a non-criminal intervention to prevent people from making other people's lives a misery already exists. Critics are lining up, particularly in one newspaper, to claim there is something wrong with anti-social behaviour orders. They should get real and talk to people in communities where these are important issues. They should get out of their leafy suburbs, the halls and corridors of their universities and their lawyers' offices and talk to people who must put up with this type of behaviour every day. A coalition against ASBOs has been founded by a group of people who clearly are not on the receiving end of anti-social behaviour. They do not know anybody and would not know how to talk to anybody in the position described by Senator Brian Hayes.
Last December, I announced in the Dáil and at a meeting of Dublin City Council that I intended to take the ASBO option. For Senator Cummins's information, I said at the time that I would table amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill, which is currently before the Houses, to introduce into Irish law a system of anti-social behaviour orders. I make no apology to any coalition or aspiring coalition for my initiative. We must provide adequate protection for people who are subjected to such behaviour.
It is not enough to advise people to get an injunction or to state that gardaí should be able to prevent it through policing. Anti-social behaviour practitioners can text to each other the location of gardaí on an estate, if they are there. The gardaí cannot be there when the beer can is thrown at the window or stand guard at every gable wall to prevent the house resonating as soccer is played against it until midnight while the poor old woman who lives in the house is terrified. They cannot be in all these places at all times to prevent this type of behaviour. It is delusional to think they can.
However, they can do what has been done in Britain, which implements a system of law that applies not merely to juveniles but also to adults. A recent House of Commons report identified that the majority of ASBOs made in Britain related to adults. It should be possible to bring a person before a court to say he or she has been loitering in the front garden of Mrs. so and so who is a widow and drinking cans and throwing them against her wall or syringing blood into her room or whatever the case may be. It can be made clear that if the person is near this woman's house again in such circumstances he or she will be committing a criminal offence. In such circumstances a person can be prohibited from certain categories of behaviour so as to protect the rights of the woman in question. Nothing could be more civilised or more fair than such a jurisdiction. It did exist in common law in the form of the right to bind people over to keep the peace and be of good behaviour without criminal conviction and without proceeding to prove cases beyond reasonable doubt, as is required for due process in criminal law.
I make no apology for going down the ASBO route to this group of people who I would put at the pointy-headed intellectual end of the spectrum. They know nothing about the effect that anti-social behaviour can have on people who have no protection in the absence of some means of enforcing a degree of decency on neighbours from hell or people from the neighbourhood who are making their life a hell. I make no apology for the proposal to adopt ASBOs. This approach has been tried in Britain and the House of Commons has reviewed its effectiveness. I invite those people who think there is something wrong with the system to consult those reports.
I will not slavishly follow the British model. I do not believe that it is correct for an ASBO to be imposed for a minimum of two years. A maximum of two years would be a more effective system. I do not believe it is possible to have an ASBO system that is at variance with our system of juvenile justice as set out in the Children Act. It has to be married to reality in the case of people who are under the age of 18. The system cannot be one which is designed for adults and applied to juvenile justice in exactly the same way.
People over the age of 14 should be amenable to ASBOs in the ordinary course of events. A person of that age is of sufficient maturity, of sufficient physical maturity in particular, to intimidate neighbours. Fourteen to 18 year olds should be amenable to being brought before juvenile courts for the purpose of a hearing as to whether an ASBO should be made in regard to them. That does not criminalise young people because there is no conviction in having an anti-social behaviour order made against one. Where one does commit a crime is if one breaches that order. However, having been brought before a court and been shown the yellow card, if one deliberately breaches that order then in those circumstances one should be liable to further punishment. In appropriate cases relating to younger persons, parental supervision regimes can be put in place.
I make no apology for the principle of this matter. It is well overdue that it should happen. When I announced proposal this last December there was not too much fuss about it. It was only when Fine Gael and the Labour Party showed some agreement with me on the subject in April that a coalition against ASBOs came into existence.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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We created a sense of awareness which the Minister was not able to do.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is speaking as if he is a Member of the Opposition.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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It was they who evoked this opposition.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I congratulate them most sincerely.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is in a position of power and he has not delivered.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should have been in Ballymahon last Monday morning to see what happened a family there.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I request Senator Bannon to refrain from interrupting the Minister.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I congratulate those parties most sincerely for seeing the light and for coming on board. There is a slight difficulty in that the Green Party with whom they hope to do business has come out solidly against this proposal.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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The coalition is gone before it starts.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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That is not propaganda, that is the case.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senators should please allow the Minister to speak without interruption.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I wish to move on to some other points.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is a pity the Minister did not provide us with a script. It would have been helpful.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Anti-social behaviour orders are not of their nature, and cannot be, the only answer to the problem. More community policing is essential and that is a point on which there appears to be agreement across the House.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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It is important to have a responsible Minister.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I believe the Senator will be slightly disappointed to hear that the record of the party of which he is a member is sadly deficient in regard to policing. In the years 1994 to 1996 there was a decline in the number of police in Ireland.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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There was not a murder every day.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The numbers went down to 10,804 at the end of 1996.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The crime situation was outlined by Senator Brian Hayes earlier.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I will have to ask Senator Bannon to leave the Chamber if he does not desist.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The annual policing budget in 1997 was just short of €600 million, it is now €1.1 billion. I want Senators to absorb those facts.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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What was that as a proportion of GNP?
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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In terms of numbers——
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It has actually gone down. In real terms the budget has gone down.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The force has grown from roughly 10,800 in 1997 to 12,150 today.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The force will reach 14,000, with people in training and those fully qualified, as early as the end of 2006. I am delivering on the Government's commitment to expand the Garda Síochána. Unlike other parties I am not presiding over a period when the number of gardaí went down——
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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——year after year while they were in office.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I also remind Members of this House that the Opposition parties did not make any commitment in 1997 or in 2002 to increase the number of police. On the contrary——
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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——the former Deputy Shatter wrote a cynical letter suggesting it could not be done and would not be done. What is more, the Labour Party was entirely silent on the issue. In fairness to Fine Gael in 2002, it took a constructive position and stated it would put in place a commission to look at the question of increasing the strength of the Garda Síochána.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should look at his programme for Government.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should not talk about reports, the Cabinet must be living on them.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The strength of the Garda Síochána is now at an all-time high and will be——
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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——over 14,000.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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When will the Minister honour his commitment?
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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What is the Minister doing about the criminal gangs in Dublin?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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It is the case that the headline crime rate has fallen from 29 per 1,000——
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Can I just——
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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They are starting to throw hand grenades in the windows in Limerick.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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In fairness to the Minister I have to intervene. He should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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In 1995——
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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By his nature, he is confrontational.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Minister was blamed for every murder back in those days.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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When the Senator's party was in office, the headline crime rate was 29 per 1,000 of the population.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should give us the real numbers.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Last year it was 25 per 1,000 of population.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Minister should give us the real numbers.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Headline crime has gone down emphatically since then.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Minister knows that is a three-card trick. He should give us the real numbers.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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If Senators do not co-operate I will have to call for the Cathaoirleach.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Minister will not debate the issue.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is the worst coward in the House. Every community in rural Ireland——
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator Bannon to withdraw that comment.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I demand that comment be withdrawn.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I call on Senator Bannon to withdraw his comment. I heard it.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I also heard it. I want that comment to be withdrawn.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator Bannon to withdraw his comment.
David Norris (Independent)
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The Minister is well able to survive. He has a big smile on his face. Political cowardice is a legitimate charge.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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There is decorum in this House. The Senator made an allegation against the Minister which was unfair and unfounded.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator want to repeat it?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Acting Chairman should tell the House what he said.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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He accused the Minister of being cowardly.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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That is mild by comparison with what the Minister accuses the Opposition of. Let us move on.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Acting Chairman is protecting the Minister.
David Norris (Independent)
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Everyone knows the accusation is not true. In any event, the Minister does not mind.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I do not believe it is very fair or honourable of Senator Bannon.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I am very grateful for the Chair's valiant attempts to uphold the dignity of this House.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but it is not a matter for the Minister to decide. The Chair believes it is an unfair comment to make to a member of the Cabinet. It is incorrect and Senator Bannon should withdraw it, in fairness. He made a statement to the effect that the Minister was cowardly. That is not fair and he should withdraw the allegation.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I am not withdrawing it. I did not use the word "cowardly".
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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That is an unfair comment to make against a Minister, in particular this Minister. It is up to the Senator.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Minister can give as good as he gets any day. I am sure he is not offended.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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On reflection, I believe the comment is not justified and the Senator should withdraw it.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Acting Chairman. This is fascinating. Next.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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If the Senator is not prepared to withdraw it, that is fair enough.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Acting Chairman has often made tough comments himself.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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The fact is, and this House knows it well, that anti-social behaviour must be dealt with on a number of fronts. It must be dealt with in terms of disadvantage and the education system — keeping those children who are most at risk in education by all possible means. It must also be dealt with through community policing, as has been said. I was glad my Department was in a position to assist the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights in sending a delegation recently to Britain to see how community policing is working there, as part of the preparation of the report that has been produced on that issue. It is a useful and constructive report.
In addition to all the extra policing resources, the reform of the Garda Síochána, the changes as regards laws on intoxicating liquor, which have happened and will happen, and the changes I have introduced to do with public order offences, we must have provision for an anti-social behaviour order as part of the available series of remedies for those people who are being let down by the state of our laws. I am quite happy to bring that forward.
Garda youth diversion projects are, of course, a matter of great importance. As the Government's amendment points out, the number of such projects has grown from 12 in 1997 to 64 in 2005. Youth diversion projects and other strategies such as those contemplated by the Children Act are the way forward as regards most forms of juvenile delinquency. There is still a hard core of people, both adults and teenagers, who pose a serious threat to the well-being of their neighbours. They make their neighbours' lives hell and make it difficult for people with decent standards to bring up their children in some localities because even to stand up for decency is in itself to become the target of abuse and intimidation. It is undoubtedly true that those people deserve the protection of our law and that is why anti-social behaviour orders will be put in place.
I agree with Senator Brian Hayes that the Garda Síochána must have links and roots in every part of the community. Most people who have an interest in criminal justice can recall what Michael Staines, the first Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, said as to how the civic guards he was establishing in the pangs of a Civil War would have to operate with the support of the people as an unarmed force. That is, most certainly, the way forward for the Garda Síochána. We have seen in Northern Ireland what happens when a police force becomes alienated for one reason or another from the communities it serves.
I believe the linkages between the Garda Síochána and local communities need to be strengthened. One of the ways to do this is through community policing. Another way, as Senator Brian Hayes pointed out, is to ensure that ethnically, geographically and socio-economically, a broadly representative police force is recruited. We are on Committee Stage of the Garda Síochána Bill in Dáil Éireann. Last night I was discussing these issues with the Opposition spokespersons and I indicated that one of the amendments we propose to make to the Bill, which has been debated at length in this House as well, was to make provision for that type of criterion to be fed into the recruitment process, lest it should be said that some form of positive discrimination to do with ethnic, geographic and socio-economic representivity was excluded or ultra vires, for some technical reason. This could happen, for example, if someone were to claim it was purely to be done on the basis of how many points were obtained in the leaving certificate, or whatever, as a more objective standard for the evaluation of recruits.
We must have a volunteer Garda reserve force. It is essential for a number of reasons. In every parish or community in Ireland there are some people who have a direct involvement with the Garda Síochána and who are available to come and assist gardaí in the carrying out of their duties. In the past the representative associations have feared that this would be to introduce some form of "yellow pack" policing. This is not the case in the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Canada or Australia. It is not regarded in those countries as having that function.
In our situation, it is a tangible link between the Garda Síochána and the community it serves. Just as much as the former FCA, now the Reserve Defence Force, is a pillar of support in the community for the Army, so would a volunteer reserve force be for the Garda Síochána. It would be a tangible link for it in every community in Ireland. It is a good idea that in every two or three roads there will be one or two people with uniforms they put on at weekends or whenever necessary, to come out and assist the Garda Síochána in enforcing the law. It is a good, not a bad idea. It would be greatly to the benefit of the Garda Síochána if such a force is created, as is provided for in the Garda Síochána Bill, which has gone through this House and which, shortly I hope, will have gone through Dáil Éireann as well.
Far from weakening the leverage or the strength or importance of the Garda Síochána, it will strengthen that force and build up new links to the community, which are necessarily weakening now in an era where people commute 30 and 40 miles by car to police communities with which they have no connection. The truth is that in Northern Ireland, for security reasons, members of the police force had to live away from many of the places they had to police. There is no reason for that type of phenomenon in Ireland, but house prices, new socio-economic habits and a different lifestyle have led to a situation where many people are policing communities in which they do not live. We have gone past the situation where one could require the young garda recruit to live in the barracks until the day that he married, the John McGahern era in Irish policing. Members of the Garda Síochána are entitled to live where they want and we cannot require them to live in State-provided accommodation, or anything like that. However, substitute linkages with the local community can be provided so that policing in communities is not entirely of a commuting nature.
I welcome cross-party support for the initiatives we are taking on anti-social behaviour. I emphasise that ASBOs cannot of themselves be 100% of the solution or a majority part of the solution because more deep seated issues must be dealt with. I will address a number of them in the near future with exciting proposals to radically reform the way in which our educational infrastructure is used to deal with disadvantage, both before and after school, to ensure children who are being failed by the education system are assisted by means of breakfast and homework clubs. This will help them to stay in touch with and involved in the education process and ensure they are not found loitering around estates with nothing to do in the afternoon when the devil makes work for idle hands.
I also strongly believe that the Garda needs to be substantially reformed. The Garda Síochána Bill 2004 is not the be all and end all of reform of the force but it is the sure foundation upon which reform can happen. The new emphasis on community policing and a stronger emphasis on the value of highly visible policing in the community must be pursued. That requires the additional numbers I am recruiting to the force. They must still be highly trained, which means that I cannot click my fingers and produce them just like that, but they are coming on stream and more than 14,000 members will be in uniform by the end of 2006. However, it is not enough to increase budgets and strength; the effectiveness of policing must also be increased. Effectiveness in many cases requires a new respect and value for front line policing in the community and deeper links between gardaí and the communities they serve. Those initiatives will go some way to dealing with ASBOs and will make a substantial contribution.
The ASBO proposal will not be a slavish repetition of what happened in Britain. However, it worked there and the House of Commons report indicates it is an effective way forward. The proposal will be dovetailed into our juvenile justice system but, in the case of adults, it will provide a solid new power for the courts. We will, by means of all these initiatives, change the climate in Ireland and give those people who are under siege in their communities a strong sense of hope that there is a society which offers them solutions to their problems.
When many people in our society see Article 40 of the Constitution, they think of the accused, the offender and so on. However, this article applies to all citizens and we are concerned with all their rights. Article 40 protects one's right to lead a decent life and is not solely something for lawyers to invoke as part of the criminal process when their clients are accused of an offence. It puts an obligation on the State to protect those who uphold and abide by the law in the enjoyment of their constitutional rights. ASBOs, in particular, are not merely necessary but they are effective and fair in striking the balance between the interests of those who abuse other people's rights and those who have inadequate defences and resources to assist in vindicating their rights.
While I welcome a debate on this subject and while I may have been dismissive of those who have formed the coalition against ASBOs, by all means let us have a political conversation and a vigorous debate on the issue but, in the last analysis, let us be real and let us talk about the people who are in the front line. Senator Norris had his difficulty with the tax inspectors.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I do not know whether he wants to have ASBOs to prevent people from using his front door as a lavatory. Law-abiding people such as Senator Norris are entitled to the protection of the law just as much as everybody else.
David Norris (Independent)
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It is a privilege to share a debating chamber with the Minister. This is vintage McDowell and I relish it. Although I did not think it was necessary for the remark to be withdrawn, I cannot think of a more inept characterisation of the Minister than that of a coward. Whatever else he is, he is not a coward. I suspect him of being a bit of a pointy head because he has a razor sharp intellect and has the capacity to make his views very clearly, firmly and unambiguously known, which I welcome. We should not be so dismissive of intellectual inquiry but it is a great old phrase used by the Reagans in America.
I also very much enjoyed the characterisation of people emerging from the leafy suburbs and ivory towers. I refer to the letters page in today's edition of The Irish Times. The majority of letters on this issue supported the Minister. A number were written by a Dr. Hanley of The Rise, Mount Merrion, County Dublin, and a Jason O'Mahony of Coppinger Glade, Stillorgan, County Dublin. The leafy suburbs and a few of the pointy heads are coming out in support of the Minister.
I also welcome a number of comments made by the Minister towards the end of his contribution. I have always thought it a dreadful notion that we should slavishly follow United Kingdom legislation and I am relieved and pleased, but not entirely surprised, that the Minister will not slavishly follow the UK example but will tweak the provision. In the tweaking of the provision lies its possible beneficial results, although I am suspicious of it and have genuine concerns. However, the Minister's objective to put an end to anti-social behaviour, which is a serious problem, is shared throughout the House. I wish there was machinery for recording dissent whereby I could record that I did not vote on this because there are items of merit in both the motion and the amendment but there is also lamentable political partisan point scoring, in which I do not want to indulge.
David Norris (Independent)
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I would like to abstain and have my abstention recorded to show that I took a substantial interest in the matter.
Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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Abstaining is most uncharacteristic of the Senator.
David Norris (Independent)
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I will not be seduced down that particular leafy glade.
The ASBOs are directed against behaviour that causes harassment and they are applicable to anyone aged over ten. My worry concerns what the Minister described as the possible criminalisation of children and I am not at all as happy as the Minister that such orders have been successful. A total of 2,600 have been granted in the UK since the beginning of last year; 42% of which were breached. Approximately 50% of those who breached the orders ended up in prison. However, they were put in prison for offences which are not criminal and that worries me, particularly because, under the British model, hearsay evidence is accepted. In other words, it is possible that where a grudge exists between neighbours, hearsay evidence could be accepted.
The publication of names, addresses and photographs of accused people occurs a great deal in our newspapers and that is a lamentable and unfair punishment. This can happen in Britain under these ASBOs. Somebody accused of a matter that is not a criminal offence may go to jail on an accusation and have their name, address and photograph printed in newspapers. That is a pity.
We must listen to people such as Mr. Geoffrey Shannon. I am not sure about the shape of his head, but he is somebody who is listened to with respect, although people may not always agree with him. He is concerned it is a knee-jerk reaction rather than a considered attempt to tackle juvenile crime and that we must stop panicking. I am not suggesting the Minister is panicking but reputable people have concerns.
I can quote Dr. Andrew Ashworth, another academic with whom the Minister is probably more familiar than I am, who stated that the combined effect of ASBOs has been that they turn the criminal law upside down as people are sent to prison for committing a non-criminal act, such as entering a part of town from which they are banned or for an offence that has a maximum penalty of a fine. The Minister is introducing a new principle into Irish law whereby people can be sent to jail for these matters.
There is also the question of people with diminished responsibility. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour and I see it in my area but I pity some of the people engaged in it because they are victims of mental distress or alcoholism. The Minister, who is a caring person, is aware of this problem. If one examines the existing prison population one sees a much higher incidence of mental illness already within it. That is worrying because it raises the question as to how appropriate it is to exclusively take this approach.
I will wait to see how the Minister tweaks and tailors this and how he fits it into the existing system whereby vulnerable offenders can be diverted into the social system and the use of community gardaí. I am glad the Minister is interested in the concept of a reserve Garda force.
I see the Minister is leaving but I am glad I was here for his speech and that he was here for part of mine. I am sure he will take note through his representative of the points made.
The alternative to ASBOs is fully implementing the Children Act 2001 and acting on it. This should be done before we introduce ASBOs. It is outrageous that it has not been enacted fully yet. Under that Act if young people commit criminal offences they can be brought before the courts, which have the power to use diversionary mechanisms such as the Garda juvenile diversion programme. In light of the failure of the ASBOs revealed in the statistics I have put on the record, it is interesting to note that the juvenile liaison programme has an excellent success rate whereby 90% of children do not reoffend as children. Its role ought to be strengthened. The Garda has 64 diversionary projects throughout the country through which it intervenes to prevent young people from getting involved in criminal activity. This involves conferencing with gardaí, parents and family, and community sanctions.
We are all in favour of community orders rather than imprisonment. It costs €250,000 per annum to send someone to a juvenile detention centre. Apart from anything else, that is expensive. Other measures in the Children Act include community service orders for 16 and 17 year olds, probation orders, day centre orders, probation training or activities orders, probation intensive orders, residential supervision, suitable persons, parent supervision, mentor, family support, restriction on movement orders and dual orders.
May I say en passant that I should have known that the capacity of a judge to bind someone to the peace is gone and the Minister should examine reinstating it. I had not realised it was gone and it is a frightful shame as in my opinion it would be far more effective than ASBOs.
Under the Children Act, parents can be brought in and made undergo training in parental skills. They can be ordered to pay compensation for offences by their children, so there is an entire range of sanctions. I simply state that I wait to see how the Minister tweaks these provisions. I am suspicious because he is introducing new principles into Irish law but for the time being I will give him the benefit of the doubt, as he should give to those of us with reservations. He should be prepared to take what we say with a certain degree of seriousness. I enjoy the banter — nobody enjoys it more that I do — but we must consider the welfare of the entire community. We should not slavishly follow the United Kingdom.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome this timely debate as anti-social behaviour is undoubtedly a problem in inner cities and towns throughout the country. The Minister and the Acting Chairman were subjected to a minor aspect of it this evening with the unruly behaviour in the Chamber, and the Acting Chairman had great difficulty in bringing it under control. It shows the difficulties that victims of such behaviour encounter, sometimes on a daily basis.
I was taken with what the Minister stated on the effects of anti-social behaviour on victims. Unfortunately our criminal law rarely if ever takes account of victims. I welcome the Minister's emphasis on the effects on victims, and wish to see it extended to the entire criminal law. We have debated that issue both here and at the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights.
I know time fades the memory but when we were growing up I am sure we were all guilty of causing aggravation to people by playing football on the streets or handball against the gable end of a house. Anti-social behaviour is not a new phenomenon but perhaps the accessibility of stimulants makes it more severe than it used to be.
The long-term effects of not addressing anti-social behaviour are as serious as its short-term effects. Anyone that has observed such behaviour over the years has found that in the housing estates where it occurs, a small minority of families are involved and where it goes unchecked those same families are involved in far more serious offences and crime ten or 20 years later. That is one of the many good reasons this should be tackled in the interests of a properly regulated society.
The Minister has taken a number of initiatives over the years, such as the fixed penalty in the Criminal Justice Bill whereby people who commit certain offences can have an order placed on them by gardaí and if they fail to pay they are brought to court.
Managing anti-social behaviour through the Garda without the involvement of the courts and prisons is a step in the right direction, and I have no doubt that all sides would commend the Garda youth diversion programme. This programme deals with 12 to 17 year olds who are at a vulnerable and impressionable age where much of what they do will have a life-long impact and will help to chart their future careers. It is very important to put the mechanism in place to ensure the paths they follow lead to a satisfying and fulfilling life.
The Opposition has many times alluded to a matter which is germane to the motion. I am happy the Minister has initiated a process to increase Garda numbers to 14,000. I am pleasantly surprised to note the Minister expects the process to be completed in 2006. The initiative to bring 275 new recruits on stream in each quarter of a three-year period will contribute. A visible Garda presence on the beat is a great deterrent to all sorts of crime. I can never understand why traffic enforcement is conducted by gardaí who hide behind trees and bushes with speed guns and are only seen if they stop a driver. In other countries with more effective traffic controls in place, police are highly visible which does not detract from detection or enforcement but makes people aware that enforcement is a high priority. Making the Garda presence more evident is a very positive step.
The Minister outlined the reduction in the rate of public order offences and headline crimes such as murder. If one is a victim, however, the crime one suffers is one too many. While we will never achieve zero tolerance, our aim should be to travel in that direction at all times. I am pleased that the Seanad had a significant influence on the Garda Síochána Bill. The establishment of joint policing committees will be a constructive step which facilitates more focused and effective policing at local level and bridges the gap in the dissemination of information to the public. Senator Cummins mentioned our recent, low-profile trip to London, which did not receive the level of attention focused on some of our colleagues who went a little further afield.
Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Despite its low profile, those on the trip found it very informative. We were given an insight into the approach to policing in a major metropolis. As one need not reinvent the wheel, police in London had copied many initiatives from Amsterdam and, particularly, Chicago, which has very strong community policing arrangements. One of the most significant community policing activities in London is tackling the public's perception that crime rates are at an all-time high and escalating. When they were informed, people were more reassured. Newspaper headlines concentrate on significant criminal activity in certain areas which influences perceptions and gives rise to a lack of confidence among the public. The London initiative is therefore welcome.
The anti-social behaviour of those who have got into difficulties and those who have the potential to get into them should be tackled. Police in Bexley have organised a football team for young people who had been loitering in the area and created a film-making group and an art group. Instead of graffiti, the young people were drawing murals. Their energy was focused in positive activities which made them feel respect for civil society and changed their lives. Police in Bexley record home visits and take a number of steps involving parents and behavioural contracts before they reach the anti-social behaviour order stage. We should put the same steps in place to ensure that the anti-social behaviour order is the last resort after encouragement and partnership have failed to result in proper conduct.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am one of the world's great law and order liberals. While I continue to be reluctant to portray crime as being worse than it is, one learns lessons in politics and would be very foolish to use the information with which one is provided. I was a candidate for the Dáil in the 2002 general election, but the Seanad did not lose me in spite of my best efforts. While it was a difficult election for Opposition parties as everyone felt very well off, a matter of concern which was raised consistently on private and local authority housing estates was the extraordinary nuisance of low-level and unpleasant anti-social behaviour. Perhaps, the problem is more intense in such areas. I refer not to the sort of extreme cases which have been mentioned during the debate but to the low-level degradation of the sense of community created by youngsters who drink, shout, break windows and run away and use appalling language. They respond to any reprimand with even worse language than they have already used.
As people to whom I spoke got older they became nervous about vigorous, energetic and threatening young men a quarter of their age and decided the best thing to do was to stay in after dark. It is dreadful how often people tell one they called gardaí in such circumstances and were told that while officers were very sorry, there was nothing they could do. No matter how difficult a set of circumstances are, a member of the Garda should never say to a citizen that there is nothing he or she can do. Such comments tend to lead to a chat about people being brought to court and let out again. It is a line too many gardaí use and they must discipline themselves and accept they harm people's confidence when they utter it.
Senator Jim Walsh was accurate to point out that a great deal of the argument involves perception rather than an out-of-control crime wave. While that does not make crime less real or painful, communities need to feel they are in control and have support from the forces of law and order. If one creates that perception, communities can feel they are in a position to deal with some anti-social behaviour simply through the increased presence of people on the streets. If one allows a minority of nasty people, who are often though not always young, to create a climate in which most of the decent people in a community go home, lock their doors and hope for the best until the following morning, one will not succeed in doing anything other than to cement the view that crime is out of control.
I had the privilege to chair the task force which began the process of regenerating St. Michael's estate in Kilmainham. The task force needed a chairman and someone from 160 miles away was accepted to have no vested interests. Good people on the estate had horrendous stories to tell. They had gone as far as to put steel plates on the doors of their apartments and stay in at night. They locked their doors and did not re-open them until morning, when they swept up the syringes, condoms and other detritus left by Dublin drug addicts who entered the estate during the night. Every stairwell light was broken because drug users wanted darkness. Windows were covered in plastic so that gardaí would be disadvantaged by the lack of light. It was a heartbreaking account of events in apartment buildings which were originally built to a high standard. The apartments were big and had efficient heating but had been abandoned by society. It was tragic that a decision had to be taken to demolish them, thereby resulting in the failure of an expensive experiment.
I support anti-social behaviour orders in principle, although I want to learn their details. They provide communities with sanctions against individuals and groups who claim immunity but they are not the only remedy. The issues raised in the Fine Gael motion and by the Minister are important. A willingness to find workable solutions is needed in a political discussion of crime. Imprisonment does not work.
The imprisonment of young people creates crime rather than prevents it. Half of indictable offences are committed by those aged 17 and under. Society's objective ought to be that no offender under the age of 17 ends up in prison, otherwise it is almost guaranteed that a lifelong criminal will be created. If a person under the age of 25 is kept out of prison, he or she will not be imprisoned after reaching that age. Anti-social behaviour orders need to be combined with a visible community police presence. The theory behind the re-organisation of the Garda is partly based on efficient responses to crime after the event. Concentrating gardaí in towns and large urban stations so that they may speed to the scene of a crime was great on "Z-Cars" but ignores the primary role of uniformed police, which is to reassure the community. That can only be done through a visible presence even when nothing is happening so that people feel that police form part of their community's background. When I was a child, I knew the name of every garda in Athy. Not many children now know the names of the gardaí in their communities. The gardaí knew me and would inform my father if I caused trouble. They had an effective set of remedies.
It must be asked why young people disregard authority. Part of the fault lies with the authorities. A divided society has been created, in which much social disadvantage is invisible. On television and radio, disadvantage is only seen on occasional scare programmes. Both the perpetrators and victims of crime are invisible because they are socially disadvantaged. Our society must be reintegrated. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made provocative speeches about the necessity of sustaining a degree of inequality. Inequality should be reduced. The Minister distorted this argument by pretending that attempts were being made to abolish inequality. One of the consequences of Ireland's prosperity is increased inequality which has contributed to a sense of hopelessness and anti-social behaviour. I support the motion but hope for sensible debate on crime and its causes and remedies.
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I am pleased to contribute to this evening's debate. Growing concerns exist about the incidence of anti-social behaviour. The most worrying aspect is that the vulnerable are at the receiving end. I am particularly concerned for the elderly. Communities can be subjected to serious harassment, which can cause distress despite its not involving criminal offences. Standing up to offenders can be impossible for older or vulnerable people. Relief must be provided through the State. The heart of the debate concerns behaviour that is serious but not criminal and the role of the State in this matter.
I have no problem with the element of the Fine Gael motion which notes the growing public concern over the prevalence of anti-social behaviour. However, reality is ignored elsewhere in the motion. That is a pity because issues of public concern should be debated in the context of fact and reality. Those moving the motion would have the House believe the Government is failing to adequately resource the Garda. This should be rebutted. The Government has pursued a wise and multifaceted approach. The Garda Síochána Bill currently before the Oireachtas is the first comprehensive legislation to deal with policing in 80 years. For the first time, legislation provides for a reserve force and partnerships between the Garda and local authorities. Those moving the motion would also have us believe the Government is failing to address the issue of Garda numbers. The Minister clearly outlined to the House that the target for extra gardaí to which a commitment was made in the programme for Government will be met by late 2006. There is no doubt that the goal of recruiting over 1,100 gardaí every year between 2005 and 2007 will be reached.
Minor menaces, including the blaring of loud music or persistent late night interference from people walking down the street, may over time ruin individual lives without crossing the line to criminality. A mechanism is needed to protect the public from behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress. Many speakers referred to the ASBOs which were introduced in the UK. I welcome the acknowledgement of the need for ASBOs and the Government's proposal to introduce them. Amendments to the criminal justice legislation will introduce ASBOs into Irish legislation
The Minister pointed out that while these orders will be similar to those in operation in the UK, they will not be an exact replica. One of the key differences is that in this jurisdiction, only the gardaí will be able to go to court to secure an anti-social behaviour order. In the UK, the police and the local authorities can make such applications. We must take action against anti-social behaviour via the State and the gardaí are best placed to fulfil this role.
ASBOs are the key to dealing with behaviour that is serious but not criminal. The granting of such orders is a matter of civil law but a breach of an order is a criminal offence. An order, which can be in place for up to two years, can prohibit an offender from engaging in specific anti-social behaviour in a defined location. The breach of an ASBO moves the individual into the criminal realm.
It is interesting that some of those who are supposedly in favour of ASBOs are becoming proficient in denouncing their impact in the UK. The Minister referred to the House of Commons report in this regard. We hear much of the 30% of people in the UK who end up in the criminal system, but very little about the 70% who do not. It is a case of seeing the glass as half full or half empty.
A prominent claim in the UK is that one third of those served with an ASBO go on to breach it and then enter into the criminal system. Like all other measures designed to deal with social problems, ASBOs should not be considered in isolation. I draw Members' attention to section 29 of the Criminal Justice Bill. Some people have claimed that the introduction of ASBOs ——
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator consider it a success that one third of people end up in the criminal system?
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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If the Senator had been listening ——
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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What about the 70% who do not go into the criminal system?
Noel CoonanJohn Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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Some people have claimed that the introduction of ASBOs will mean that those guilty of anti-social behaviour will always end up in the criminal system. I restate my point that a certain percentage of people will end up in the criminal system but that same percentage would have done so anyway. We must take account of those people who will benefit from an ABSO and not end up in the criminal system. That is the way to approach this if one wants to be positive and the House of Commons report supports this argument.
Another issue thrown into the mix is that of the criminalisation of children. This is an emotive area that is sure to engender anxiety in people. Some have expressed concern that the proposed measures would lead to the criminalisation of children for behaviour that is not, in itself, criminal. They further argue that this will undermine the welfare approach of the Children Act. However, we should examine the proposals closely to ascertain whether the same penalties will apply to children and adults alike. The Minister referred to this issue and suggested that the question is how the penalties will be applied in respect of children and adults. It is in this context that we should take the discussion forward.
Anti-social behaviour is a symptom of wider societal problems and is closely related to general criminal behaviour. Increased crime is accompanied by increased anti-social behaviour. This has been the experience here and abroad.
ASBOs have been in operation in the UK since 1998 and have been employed on many occasions in the past seven years. The Minister has said that he will not slavishly follow the UK model, which I welcome. We have heard a plethora of so-called experts in the UK denounce ASBOs and their effects in Britain. It is a little strange, in that context, that every mainstream party in the UK supports ASBOs. Questions must be asked about those who oppose the orders. They are not practising politicians who engage with the public and who are aware of anti-social behaviour problems in their constituencies. If there were serious problems with ASBOs, I would have expected at least one political party to oppose them.
Vociferous groups will also come out against measures to deal with anti-social behaviour in this country. They will protest, highlight extreme cases and use emotive language in their campaigns. Yet, as in the UK, the main political parties here support the measures. Fine Gael ——
John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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It is interesting that the only two parties who do not support the ABSO measures are Sinn Féin and the Green Party.
Consensus on the seriousness of the problem and the measures to deal with it will not stop some groups attempting to make political gain from anti-social behaviour. I hope that this will not be the case in this House because we must move forward to address this blight on Irish society.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The raid in Ballymahon post office in County Longford on Monday last highlights the breakdown of law and order. Let us try to imagine what it would be like to be a 17 year old and to wake up to find an armed man standing in your bedroom, threatening you. That was the fate of a young girl, whose only crime was to be the daughter of the local postmaster in Ballymahon. This girl is an innocent victim of our rapidly increasing rate of anti-social behaviour.
The raid on the Ballymahon post office was not an isolated incident in County Longford, however. There were similar raids in Colehill, Edgeworthstown, Tashinney and on the Bank of Ireland in Ballymahon. In County Westmeath, there were armed raids in the last few months in Glassin, Horseleap and Athlone. Building sites in Keenagh, Granard, Lanesboro and Longford town are being cleaned out on a nightly basis.
Numerous representations have been made to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform seeking an increase in Garda numbers in County Longford and a request for a meeting between the Minister and a council delegation was made more than a year ago. However, when the Minister came to County Longford recently to open a new child care facility and sign documents relating to prison decentralisation, he made no effort to meet the local councillors to discuss the problems of raids and Garda numbers. This has led people in Longford to make accusations of unhealthy arrogance on the part of the Minister. He has snubbed the town and county councillors. The councillors were not made aware of his impending visit and only learned of it because the Mayor is a member of the executive that signed the decentralisation documentation.
The current uproar over the lack of consultation on Garda manpower is ironic, given that the Garda Síochána Bill brings community policing to the forefront, with consultation bodies to be set up following its passing into law. Local councillors in County Longford welcome the opportunity to become more involved in police decisions, as envisaged in the Bill. However, they are wondering from where the extra gardaí required for community policing will come. The Government has continued to renege on its commitment in this regard.
Where are the extra 2000 gardaí that were promised? Longford, Ballymahon and Lanesboro need extra gardaí as do almost every town and village in the county and, indeed, the rest of the country. If the Government cannot provide the additional manpower required, what hope do we have?
Fine Gael believes that the law is biased against the victims of burglary and armed trespass. It calls on the Government to review legislation in this area, with a view to re-balancing the scales to protect the victims and impose tougher sentences on criminals. Assaults, violent incidents, fatalities, break-ins and so on, are an everyday occurrence. One only has to turn on the radio or pick up a newspaper to be aware of this. Rural policing needs to be stepped up, not scaled back. Dublin gangs are now targeting rural areas. Having a Garda presence in an area is the greatest deterrent to criminals. Security can be increased by providing more patrol cars and extra resources, including gardaí on the beat.
It is worrying that, over the past three years, more than 1,300 firearms have been stolen from rural homes and gun dealerships throughout the country. Most of these weapons have found their way into the hands of criminal gangs. This begs the question as to why such a large volume of illegally held arms is to be found in country areas. Is law and order breaking down to such an extent that rural dwellers must adopt a wild west approach to ensuring their own safety? Gun rule will become the norm in our society unless the Government rectifies the appalling situation in which we now find ourselves. The extreme anti-social behaviour that currently exists in many areas, and to which several Opposition Members have referred, is very annoying for citizens, particularly the elderly.
The closure of many small rural Garda stations has left areas without the security that such a Garda presence would bring. This applies especially to old people and other vulnerable sections in rural communities. It is totally unacceptable that people cannot go about their daily lives without fear of intimidation. This desperate situation is being brought home to us repeatedly on the doorsteps, yet the Government is doing nothing apart from spinning and emitting lots of hot air.
Figures produced by the Health Research Board at the end of last year showed that drug use outside Dublin almost trebled between 1998 and 2002. Alcohol consumption and drug abuse is directly related to the lack of youth facilities and measures to assist the most marginalised young people. It is essential to bring them into the fold, rather than pushing them further to the outer limits of society.
The introduction of anti-social behaviour orders could lead to an unprecedented and counter-productive increase in the number of young people being detained, according to solicitors dealing with criminal cases in the United Kingdom. Under such orders, behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress is capable of including everyone from serious criminals to people whose appearance makes us feel uneasy. Realistically, anti-social behaviour in juveniles can be tackled using a wide range of measures under the Children Act 2001.
The Government must honour its commitment to recruit 2,000 extra gardaí. In addition, minimum sentencing should be introduced for repeat offenders and a properly organised and researched crime unit should be established to tackle crime.
People are enraged when free legal aid is provided for criminals. I hope the Minister will take that issue on board. It is sickening for people to hear that free legal aid is being provided to someone who may have committed a serious crime.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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That situation needs to be examined and addressed.
Tony Kett (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to share my time with Senator Brady.
Tony Kett (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I am glad of this opportunity to support the amendment to the motion as outlined by my colleague, Senator Jim Walsh. Fine Gael has afforded us an opportunity to show how successful the Minister's crime prevention programme has been to date. Although this applies to both sides of the House, it is unfortunate when divisive motions are tabled and amendments are equally divisive. One ends up with the Opposition telling us how poorly we are doing, while we end up outlining the facts to them.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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If the Senator had been in Ballymahon last week he would have seen the facts concerning the Government's negligence.
Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator had an opportunity to speak, but he is intent on taking up everyone else's time as well.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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As a matter of courtesy to other Senators, Senator Bannon should allow them to speak.
Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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Instead of shouting at one another, it would be more beneficial if we put forward constructive views. It is our job to put our shoulders to the wheel in order to introduce legislative programmes that benefit the public we are here to serve. It is unfair to suggest, as the motion does, that the Minister has been sitting on his hands during his period in office.
This month alone, the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights — of which both Senator Jim Walsh and Senator Brian Hayes are members — sat through one of the finest processes I have been involved with, coming up with a concept for the introduction of community policing. Some 60 submissions were made to that committee which involved five days of hearings. Members of the joint committee also made a worthwhile trip to London where they met a police inspector at Scotland Yard who was most informative and enthusiastic about the concept of community policing.
In addition to meeting local community activists, we also met the Garda Commissioner, the Dublin city manager, Mr. Denis Bradley of the Northern Ireland Policing Board and many others. The beneficial outcome was the report we all received last week, which showed that conventional policing has failed in its efforts to deal with anti-social behaviour in the community. The report also found that the Garda Síochána was reactive rather than proactive. All of us who have served as councillors would agree with that.
The Minister has provided positive legislation that will help society to develop socially and recreationally. That corpus of legislation includes the Garda Síochána Bill, to which several Senators have referred, as well as the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, which strengthened the role of the Garda Síochána.
A recent survey in the north inner city, which Senator Brady and myself represent, suggested that persistent anti-social behaviour — much of which is, unfortunately, drug-related — was committed by a small number of people. The survey revealed there was a major disincentive for local people to involve themselves in their community, either through voluntary organisations or otherwise. Public disorder, including street violence — particularly among young males — is one of the major threats to society.
The experience of anti-social behaviour is not unique to Dublin, as other cities have the same problem. A multi-agency response is required to tackle it, involving education, health and housing. Over the years, the design of housing estates has contributed to some of the current social disorder. Parental control is vital because the role of parents in the lives of the younger generation is central to any solutions we may come up with here.
Effective community policing is the way forward but in establishing a community policing organisation we must ensure it will not be the poor relation of the Garda Síochána. Such a structure for community policing must include gardaí of senior rank. In addition, gardaí must be willing to work in community policing and have the potential to benefit from promotion if they do so. When it comes to enforcing anti-social behaviour orders, community policing is the way forward.
Cyprian Brady (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Kett for sharing his time with me and welcome the Minister of State to the House. I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Michael McDowell, for the personal passion he has shown in dealing with this subject. His address to the House earlier was eloquent.
I sought a definition of anti-social behaviour and the best one I came up with was in a Dublin City Council policy document which defined it as "any behaviour which causes, or is likely to cause, any significant or persistent danger, injury, damage, loss or fear to any person living in a house or an estate, and which includes violence, threats, intimidation, coercion, harassment, nuisance or serious obstruction of any person". It also includes the manufacture, sale and supply of drugs.
As Senator Kett noted, significant strides have been made in our area, the north inner city of Dublin, in dealing with anti-social behaviour, not only in recent times but over many years. I will refer specifically to two programmes. I have seen at first hand the benefits of the youth diversion programme which attempts to change the behavioural patterns of young people who get into trouble. The use of positive role models from among their peers is essential when dealing with young people. While adults will tell young people what to do, it is only when they are told what is right and wrong by members of their own age group that young people assume personal responsibility which is lacking in many cases of anti-social behaviour.
The community policing fora is the second initiative I wish to raise, specifically in the context of the inner city. The fora have been established in a number of areas and have proved effective in breaking down the barriers which exist in some communities between residents and the Garda. The community policing forum model has proven successful in this regards because it gives communities and residents a direct link to policing and an opportunity to have a say in how their areas and communities are policed. Anti-social behaviour affects all communities and I welcome the Minister's attempts to address it, particularly through community policing committees.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I compliment my colleague, Senator Cummins, for tabling this motion because it has been an interesting debate. I listened to the Minister's knockabout performance. Senator Brady probably reflected Dublin opinion when he noted that anti-social behaviour impacts most on urban areas. I will speak about rural Ireland, specifically the area I know best, west Limerick and the town of Newcastle West.
The document produced by the Fine Gael Party refers to rostering, an issue I ask the Minister to examine. To illustrate my point I will give as an example the anti-social behaviour which takes place at weekends in Newcastle West. As a result of recent events, a local councillor, Patrick O'Donovan, and I visited the local superintendent to discuss the issue and outline the concerns of the community. Members of the community who approached us had a sense of helplessness and frustration and asked who would control anti-social behaviour in the area. The superintendent, who has 24 gardaí in his division, pointed out that only four gardaí will be on duty at any time at a weekend because a four cycle shift system is in operation. Of these, two will be in a squad car, one in the Garda station and one available.
I pointed out that anti-social behaviour in Newcastle West usually occurs at certain flashpoint times, namely, between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. on Friday and Saturday nights. The town is no different from many other towns in which people from outlying rural areas congregate to attend discos. They then go to fast food restaurants and usually disperse at around 3 a.m. The period prior to 3 a.m. when most vandalism occurs gives cause for concern. Windows have been broken, barrels and benches dumped in the river and a recently erected post box was ripped out and found 100 yards away. How can one control these and similar incidents of wanton, senseless vandalism with a depleted Garda resource? Effective deployment of Garda resources on the streets during flashpoint times would eliminate much of the problem. The square in Newcastle West is a central point and if two gardaí were deployed on it late on weekend evenings, it would make a substantial difference. The superintendent pointed out that it was a matter of effective deployment of resources. The reason I focus on rostering is that much could be done to improve Garda deployment.
I also told the superintendent that at 9 a.m. on Monday mornings, a busy time for gardaí who must issue summonses and access the PULSE computer system, Newcastle West, like elsewhere, is quiet. The solution, therefore, lies in rostering and the deployment of resources.
A fine, ultra-modern Garda station has been fitted out in Abbeyfeale but its opening times are restricted. While this may be necessary because the Newcastle West station is the central point in the area and is open on a 24 hour basis, it is nevertheless a major deficiency to open a modern Garda station without providing the required tools, in other words, the PULSE computer system to key in the data. It defeats the purpose to provide nuts and bolts without providing the type of system required. Much could be learned by examining the current approaches to PULSE and Garda deployment.
I welcome the Minister's comments, particularly with regard to anti-social behaviour orders. From what I have read, these have worked effectively in the United Kingdom and would be desirable here because we require a deterrent. Society has changed dramatically. When I was growing up people who fell out, as they often did, may have used their fists but I do not recall a single occasion on which a person was kicked while on the ground. Unfortunately, people are now kicked senseless. I do not know what is happening to society but it is on a slippery slope and it is important that we apply brakes or controls to halt the slide.
7:00 pm
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am glad the Fine Gael Party tabled this motion. It generated a lively, interesting debate, the House reached a consensus on many issues and Senators shared their experiences, many in graphic detail, of the type of anti-social behaviour taking place throughout the country. This issue is relevant to the ordinary person in the street and affects communities everywhere so it is no surprise that we had such a lively debate.
The Minister devoted most of his speech to anti-social behaviour orders. As I stated in my opening speech, too much emphasis has been placed on these orders. Instead of honing in on them, we should introduce preventative and support measures and tackle the symptoms of anti-social behaviour, including poverty and deprivation. The Minister failed to address any of these issues or my comments on the Government's policy on the Children Act, to which it does not appear to be committed. He did not, for example, respond to my remarks on the sections of the Act dealing with supervision and community sanctions.
The Fine Gael Party also made proposals on generating finance. We have taken a constructive approach and offered a positive policy. The Minister stated once again that all these matters would be addressed in his amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill. We asked when this would happen because we are fed up with talk but little action from the Minister. We had more rhetoric tonight but people on the street who are affected by anti-social behaviour every day want to see action. Our motion calls for that action.
The Dail Divided:
For the motion: 30 (Cyprian Brady, Michael Brennan, Peter Callanan, Margaret Cox, John Dardis, Timmy Dooley, Geraldine Feeney, Liam Fitzgerald, Camillus Glynn, Brendan Kenneally, Tony Kett, Michael Kitt, Terry Leyden, Don Lydon, Marc MacSharry, Martin Mansergh, John Minihan, Paschal Mooney, Tom Morrissey, Pat Moylan, Labhrás Ó Murchú, Francis O'Brien, Mary O'Rourke, Ann Ormonde, Kieran Phelan, Eamon Scanlon, Jim Walsh, Kate Walsh, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)
Against the motion: 17 (James Bannon, Paul Bradford, Ulick Burke, Paul Coghlan, Noel Coonan, Maurice Cummins, Frank Feighan, Michael Finucane, Brian Hayes, Mary Henry, Joe McHugh, David Norris, Joe O'Toole, John Paul Phelan, Shane Ross, Brendan Ryan, Sheila Terry)
Tellers: Tá, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Níl, Senators Cummins and Finucane.
Amendment declared carried.
Mary O'Rourke