David Norris (Independent)

I will not be seduced down that particular leafy glade.

The ASBOs are directed against behaviour that causes harassment and they are applicable to anyone aged over ten. My worry concerns what the Minister described as the possible criminalisation of children and I am not at all as happy as the Minister that such orders have been successful. A total of 2,600 have been granted in the UK since the beginning of last year; 42% of which were breached. Approximately 50% of those who breached the orders ended up in prison. However, they were put in prison for offences which are not criminal and that worries me, particularly because, under the British model, hearsay evidence is accepted. In other words, it is possible that where a grudge exists between neighbours, hearsay evidence could be accepted.

The publication of names, addresses and photographs of accused people occurs a great deal in our newspapers and that is a lamentable and unfair punishment. This can happen in Britain under these ASBOs. Somebody accused of a matter that is not a criminal offence may go to jail on an accusation and have their name, address and photograph printed in newspapers. That is a pity.

We must listen to people such as Mr. Geoffrey Shannon. I am not sure about the shape of his head, but he is somebody who is listened to with respect, although people may not always agree with him. He is concerned it is a knee-jerk reaction rather than a considered attempt to tackle juvenile crime and that we must stop panicking. I am not suggesting the Minister is panicking but reputable people have concerns.

I can quote Dr. Andrew Ashworth, another academic with whom the Minister is probably more familiar than I am, who stated that the combined effect of ASBOs has been that they turn the criminal law upside down as people are sent to prison for committing a non-criminal act, such as entering a part of town from which they are banned or for an offence that has a maximum penalty of a fine. The Minister is introducing a new principle into Irish law whereby people can be sent to jail for these matters.

There is also the question of people with diminished responsibility. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour and I see it in my area but I pity some of the people engaged in it because they are victims of mental distress or alcoholism. The Minister, who is a caring person, is aware of this problem. If one examines the existing prison population one sees a much higher incidence of mental illness already within it. That is worrying because it raises the question as to how appropriate it is to exclusively take this approach.

I will wait to see how the Minister tweaks and tailors this and how he fits it into the existing system whereby vulnerable offenders can be diverted into the social system and the use of community gardaí. I am glad the Minister is interested in the concept of a reserve Garda force.

I see the Minister is leaving but I am glad I was here for his speech and that he was here for part of mine. I am sure he will take note through his representative of the points made.

The alternative to ASBOs is fully implementing the Children Act 2001 and acting on it. This should be done before we introduce ASBOs. It is outrageous that it has not been enacted fully yet. Under that Act if young people commit criminal offences they can be brought before the courts, which have the power to use diversionary mechanisms such as the Garda juvenile diversion programme. In light of the failure of the ASBOs revealed in the statistics I have put on the record, it is interesting to note that the juvenile liaison programme has an excellent success rate whereby 90% of children do not reoffend as children. Its role ought to be strengthened. The Garda has 64 diversionary projects throughout the country through which it intervenes to prevent young people from getting involved in criminal activity. This involves conferencing with gardaí, parents and family, and community sanctions.

We are all in favour of community orders rather than imprisonment. It costs €250,000 per annum to send someone to a juvenile detention centre. Apart from anything else, that is expensive. Other measures in the Children Act include community service orders for 16 and 17 year olds, probation orders, day centre orders, probation training or activities orders, probation intensive orders, residential supervision, suitable persons, parent supervision, mentor, family support, restriction on movement orders and dual orders.

May I say en passant that I should have known that the capacity of a judge to bind someone to the peace is gone and the Minister should examine reinstating it. I had not realised it was gone and it is a frightful shame as in my opinion it would be far more effective than ASBOs.

Under the Children Act, parents can be brought in and made undergo training in parental skills. They can be ordered to pay compensation for offences by their children, so there is an entire range of sanctions. I simply state that I wait to see how the Minister tweaks these provisions. I am suspicious because he is introducing new principles into Irish law but for the time being I will give him the benefit of the doubt, as he should give to those of us with reservations. He should be prepared to take what we say with a certain degree of seriousness. I enjoy the banter — nobody enjoys it more that I do — but we must consider the welfare of the entire community. We should not slavishly follow the United Kingdom.