Brendan Ryan (Labour)

I am one of the world's great law and order liberals. While I continue to be reluctant to portray crime as being worse than it is, one learns lessons in politics and would be very foolish to use the information with which one is provided. I was a candidate for the Dáil in the 2002 general election, but the Seanad did not lose me in spite of my best efforts. While it was a difficult election for Opposition parties as everyone felt very well off, a matter of concern which was raised consistently on private and local authority housing estates was the extraordinary nuisance of low-level and unpleasant anti-social behaviour. Perhaps, the problem is more intense in such areas. I refer not to the sort of extreme cases which have been mentioned during the debate but to the low-level degradation of the sense of community created by youngsters who drink, shout, break windows and run away and use appalling language. They respond to any reprimand with even worse language than they have already used.

As people to whom I spoke got older they became nervous about vigorous, energetic and threatening young men a quarter of their age and decided the best thing to do was to stay in after dark. It is dreadful how often people tell one they called gardaí in such circumstances and were told that while officers were very sorry, there was nothing they could do. No matter how difficult a set of circumstances are, a member of the Garda should never say to a citizen that there is nothing he or she can do. Such comments tend to lead to a chat about people being brought to court and let out again. It is a line too many gardaí use and they must discipline themselves and accept they harm people's confidence when they utter it.

Senator Jim Walsh was accurate to point out that a great deal of the argument involves perception rather than an out-of-control crime wave. While that does not make crime less real or painful, communities need to feel they are in control and have support from the forces of law and order. If one creates that perception, communities can feel they are in a position to deal with some anti-social behaviour simply through the increased presence of people on the streets. If one allows a minority of nasty people, who are often though not always young, to create a climate in which most of the decent people in a community go home, lock their doors and hope for the best until the following morning, one will not succeed in doing anything other than to cement the view that crime is out of control.

I had the privilege to chair the task force which began the process of regenerating St. Michael's estate in Kilmainham. The task force needed a chairman and someone from 160 miles away was accepted to have no vested interests. Good people on the estate had horrendous stories to tell. They had gone as far as to put steel plates on the doors of their apartments and stay in at night. They locked their doors and did not re-open them until morning, when they swept up the syringes, condoms and other detritus left by Dublin drug addicts who entered the estate during the night. Every stairwell light was broken because drug users wanted darkness. Windows were covered in plastic so that gardaí would be disadvantaged by the lack of light. It was a heartbreaking account of events in apartment buildings which were originally built to a high standard. The apartments were big and had efficient heating but had been abandoned by society. It was tragic that a decision had to be taken to demolish them, thereby resulting in the failure of an expensive experiment.

I support anti-social behaviour orders in principle, although I want to learn their details. They provide communities with sanctions against individuals and groups who claim immunity but they are not the only remedy. The issues raised in the Fine Gael motion and by the Minister are important. A willingness to find workable solutions is needed in a political discussion of crime. Imprisonment does not work.

The imprisonment of young people creates crime rather than prevents it. Half of indictable offences are committed by those aged 17 and under. Society's objective ought to be that no offender under the age of 17 ends up in prison, otherwise it is almost guaranteed that a lifelong criminal will be created. If a person under the age of 25 is kept out of prison, he or she will not be imprisoned after reaching that age. Anti-social behaviour orders need to be combined with a visible community police presence. The theory behind the re-organisation of the Garda is partly based on efficient responses to crime after the event. Concentrating gardaí in towns and large urban stations so that they may speed to the scene of a crime was great on "Z-Cars" but ignores the primary role of uniformed police, which is to reassure the community. That can only be done through a visible presence even when nothing is happening so that people feel that police form part of their community's background. When I was a child, I knew the name of every garda in Athy. Not many children now know the names of the gardaí in their communities. The gardaí knew me and would inform my father if I caused trouble. They had an effective set of remedies.

It must be asked why young people disregard authority. Part of the fault lies with the authorities. A divided society has been created, in which much social disadvantage is invisible. On television and radio, disadvantage is only seen on occasional scare programmes. Both the perpetrators and victims of crime are invisible because they are socially disadvantaged. Our society must be reintegrated. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made provocative speeches about the necessity of sustaining a degree of inequality. Inequality should be reduced. The Minister distorted this argument by pretending that attempts were being made to abolish inequality. One of the consequences of Ireland's prosperity is increased inequality which has contributed to a sense of hopelessness and anti-social behaviour. I support the motion but hope for sensible debate on crime and its causes and remedies.