Seanad debates
Thursday, 25 November 2004
Order of Business (Resumed).
10:30 am
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I join with Senators in requesting a debate on decentralisation, in which we can celebrate the first phase of this ambitious programme.
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In reality, this is phase 2 because, as Senator Leyden pointed out, phase 1 included an excellent decentralisation campaign in 1989 and 1990, which was opposed at the time by Fine Gael. This time last year, the Opposition was less concerned for the people of Roscommon and how they might benefit from decentralisation and more concerned with wrecking the Civil Service.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Did the Senator read the announcement yesterday?
Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The programme will go ahead and, as Senator Leyden rightly pointed out, we will see decentralisation within the next two years and Roscommon too will get its jobs.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Cathaoirleach for the careful consideration he gave to the matter I raised yesterday and his note in that regard. I look forward to having a discussion with him outside the House regarding the NRA and how the matter might be pursued.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do not think the Senator will have a discussion with me. He had better put that out of his head.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Whatever you say, Sir. I am grateful for the Cathaoirleach's careful consideration. It involves areas with which the Leader and Senators will be familiar in close proximity to Muckross Abbey——
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wonder with whom I can pursue this matter. We are aware of the unfortunate incident in which the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, was involved. Thankfully, no one in his car was seriously injured. However, there are special considerations in this regard which we could usefully examine.
I strongly support my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, in his request for a debate on decentralisation. I ask that the Leader arrange such a debate given the significant reduction in numbers from 10,000 to 3,500. The Government likes to make announcements about the roll-out of this, that and the other.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Killarney is included. It is getting a full Department.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Many Senators are offering and I would like the Senator to be brief, to come to the point and ask a question of the Leader.
11:00 am
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Cathaoirleach will appreciate how much I am in accord with his rulings. I am always brief and to the point. This seems to be a rolling reduction rather than a roll-out and we need a debate on the issue, to which I look forward.
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Cathaoirleach will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to refer to decentralisation. I am so completely decentralised myself that I sometimes wonder where I am. The House might wish to be reminded of the release yesterday of a young lady from County Armagh who had been held as a hostage for 37 days. It is a source of great relief to everybody. Perhaps the Leader would convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the officials in his Department the gratitude of the community in Northern Ireland for the efforts they might have made in that regard.
I support Senator Bannon's point about the discussion and examination of European matters in the House. It is an extremely important point and will become more important as the debate on the constitution progresses. Will the Leader meet with the other party leaders to discuss ways in which European business could be given higher salience in the House?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Order of Business must conclude in seven minutes and 12 Senators wish to contribute. I ask them to be brief or some will be disappointed.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to raise the issue of the Chernobyl Children's Project. During the last few days some signals have emanated from Belarus to the effect that the number of children travelling to Ireland under that project could be restricted. This project is successful, worthwhile and important for the wellbeing of the children in that badly blighted area. Perhaps the Leader would raise this issue with the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to ensure that the numbers planning to travel will actually do so. The children come here for much needed rest and recuperation. The least we can do is ensure that the Minister for Foreign Affairs intervenes to ensure that this happens.
Senator Norris raised a significant issue. Will the Leader follow up on the matter of the Gulfstream jet and report back to the House? Finally, we have already seen a successful initial step in decentralisation. The former Deputy from Kildare North is now an EU Commissioner. That is a good form of decentralisation.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I join Senators in seeking a debate, as Senator Norris has mentioned, about the Gulfstream jet that is landing at Shannon. Such a debate would afford us the opportunity to put some facts on the record. I am sickened each day to hear Shannon Airport being besmirched by Members on the other side of the House. It is time we had an opportunity to reply.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Hear, hear. That would be very welcome.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a disgrace how Senator Norris and others continue to destroy the good name of Shannon Airport, as well as the good name of the United States Government.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That Government has been extremely supportive of this country, not least in terms of foreign direct investment.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is time there was a debate on this. I am sick at how the names of County Clare and Shannon Airport are dragged through the mud in this House without an opportunity to reply.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Last year, the then Minister for Finance said: "It would be catastrophic if decentralisation was not delivered by the next general election. We will have to make sure we deliver on this or we will suffer heavily at the polls." He was speaking on decentralisation in the budget debate.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has the Senator a question for the Leader? That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It certainly has when calling for a debate on decentralisation. The people of Waterford have been deceived. A total of 300 jobs for Dungarvan and 225 jobs for Waterford were promised. People in these areas have been treated with contempt. I seek an early debate on this issue. Waterford is not on the priority list or in the first phase of decentralisation. It will be 2008 before the county is even considered again.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Bheadh sé tráthúil anois cuireadh a thabhairt don Aire, an Teachta Ó Cuív, teacht isteach agus labhairt faoi na rudaí dearfacha atá ag tarlú maidir le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge. Feicim le cúpla lá anuas go mbíonn mionfhógraí sna páipéirí maidir le comhionannas teanga, agus tá sé tábhachtach go mbeadh an t-eolas ar fad ag an Teach seo. Chomh maith leis sin, léigh muid sna páipéirí nach raibh éinne ag cur ina choinne maidir le stádas oifigiúil oibre a bhaint amach don Ghaeilge san Eoraip. Bheadh áthas ar an Aire, an Teachta Ó Cuív, teacht isteach agus labhairt linn faoi na rudaí sin.
Feargal Quinn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Today, 25 November, is a sad day because it is the day that the number of deaths on the roads this year equals the total number of deaths on the roads last year. We seem to have forgotten that the ability to do something about this is in our hands. However, it requires the commitment of the Minister and the Government. They would have the support of the nation. We know how to solve this problem; we had it solved for a number of months after the penalty points scheme was introduced. However, as soon as it became known that the system was not being enforced, we took our eyes off the ball. Now there are more than 30 deaths per month where previously there were 20 per month. The Leader should bring the Minister before the House so we can let him know the commitment of this House and of the nation to solving this problem. It is in our hands. I urge people to do something about it.
Camillus Glynn (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I support the call for a debate on decentralisation. I will have many good things to say about it. I wish to raise a matter which I have raised on a number of occasions. Each day we see coverage in the media of the number of unprovoked attacks that are occurring in our towns and cities, as well as the increasing use of guns and the ongoing use of knives. I also raised on three occasions what took place over Hallowe'en. It is important that we do something now. Proposals should be put forward in the House by the Minister, Deputy McDowell, who is no stranger to this Chamber and always comes here when invited, to ensure we will not be saying the same things here next year. It is urgent that the Leader have a debate on this as soon as possible.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I, too, seek a debate on decentralisation. Today is also Thanksgiving Day. This is some way to give thanks to the people of Tipperary, who have been left out. Will the Leader also correct the record of the House? Senator Hanafin blames Mr. Phil Flynn and the trade unions and Senator Leyden blames Fine Gael but there is no reason that decentralisation should not take place to Thurles. It is one of the few areas that was over subscribed and the building and sites are available, thanks to the co-operation of the Garda. There should be an immediate explanation of why this has not been implemented.
Will the Leader consider bringing the Cabinet before the Equality Tribunal? The Equality Tribunal was to go to Roscrea but now it is not going there. The Cabinet has not treated the people of Tipperary equally when compared with the people in counties Laois and Offaly, who are getting everything. There is nothing for Tipperary.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Some three weeks ago the offices of the Private Security Authority were opened in Tipperary. Senator Coonan might not be aware of that advanced decentralisation.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is the Senator seeking a debate on Tipperary?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Senator is not in Tipperary county council now.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have made inquiries and have received assurances from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that its decentralisation to Tipperary is going ahead. There will be a report next March.
Mary Henry (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Norris is right to raise the issue of the Gulfstream jet again. When I first raised this issue at the end of the debate on the transfer of sentenced persons Bill, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, said that if any people were being transferred to other countries through Shannon Airport on that jet, they had the protection of the Constitution. This is an extremely important issue. The Minister is on the record on this matter.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Now I know why the Save Leitrim campaign was established. It was to save Leitrim from Senator Leyden rather than to save the electoral boundary of the county. I support my colleagues' call for a debate on decentralisation. Yesterday, we saw the broken promises in this regard so it would be apt to have a debate on the issue.
I agree with Senator Glynn's comments on unprovoked attacks. I have raised the matter previously and we should have a discussion with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the issues that have arisen following the recent spate of attacks. Will the Leader outline the provisions for a debate on the budget next week? What is planned or agreed?
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There has been a varied debate this morning covering both the international and the parochial. I will stick to parochial matters and County Donegal, as I always do. There are disturbing reasons for that. At 10%, Donegal still has the highest rate of unemployment in the country and continues to suffer as a result of false promises on the part of the Government. Donegal town was promised 230 jobs and Buncrana was promised 120 jobs under the decentralisation programme. Gweedore, an unemployment blackspot, was also promised 30 jobs.
The situation in Donegal is serious. Its county council has invested funding in buildings for those who are supposed be sent there under the decentralisation programme. However, these buildings are empty and are costing ratepayers in Donegal money. Donegal and Derry will soon have the most highly skilled workforce in the IT sector in this country and the two are going to be linked via broadband in the not too distant future. Donegal County Council, Letterkenny Chamber of Commerce and every Opposition spokesperson in Donegal have been let down. Decentralisation must be placed back on the agenda.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I cannot allow the Senator to continue making this statement.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Donegal has been let down on far too many occasions.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have raised the issue of decentralisation on numerous occasions and it was I who requested the debate on it in the House in light of the deception I identified in respect thereof. It is not acceptable that the programme has been reduced from 10,300 to 3,500 places. This is a sad day for democracy and politics and thousands of civil servants have been deceived. Why does the Taoiseach have so many special advisers when all he need do is listen to Senator Leyden?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is another issue on decentralisation to which I wish to refer, namely, that the Government has reversed the claim that the private sector and not the State would pay for the building work relating to the programme. This is a serious issue. The private sector was supposed to pay for all the buildings required. Who made the decision that the private sector would pay and who reversed it? If the State has to pay, the burden on taxpayers will again increase.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Brian Hayes sought a debate on what he terms as the "shambles" of decentralisation.
The Senator also sought a debate on the 11,500 children born here of non-national parents. As the Senator stated, legislation dealing with the outcome of the referendum will be introduced next week. The debate on that legislation, which is scheduled for next week, will encompass that and many other matters. I hope we will have an opportunity to debate the issue fully at that time.
Senator O'Toole also requested an early debate on decentralisation and stated that the House was misled in terms of what was said during the previous debate here on this matter. There is only one slot for next week in which legislation is not due to be debated. Senator Ross already requested a debate last week on Aer Lingus. I agree that decentralisation, particularly in terms of the positive news relating to it, should be debated in the House. It is a matter of whether we can come to an arrangement with Senator Ross. It is amazing that the people who are so exercised today about decentralisation are those who did not want it.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We did not want it in the form proposed.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I was not referring to Senator O'Toole.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have consistently supported decentralisation and I requested a debate on it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I accept what the Senator says. That I am replying to the point he raised does not mean I am referring to him.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Leader to reply, without interruption.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Ryan referred to opposition to moving Development Co-operation Ireland to Limerick. That matter was debated by the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs at which representatives of the various NGOs were present. I cannot understand why people would not wish to go to Limerick because it is a fine city.
The Senator also inquired, like Senator Brian Hayes, about the 11,500 children born here of non-national parents. However, he was more exercised about obtaining the facts in order that we might have a full debate on the matter.
Senator Hanafin requested a debate on decentralisation. As stated earlier, there is only one slot available next week for debating matters other than legislation and I have designated this for a debate with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, on Aer Lingus. However, we will see if we can defer this and hold a debate on decentralisation instead.
The Senator also referred to the position of SDS. I met the assistant secretary of the Department who is in charge of An Post who asked that there not be a public debate on the matter at present. I say this in the event that people might think we are dodging a debate. We cannot have such a debate yet because of the matters currently being discussed with the unions.
Senator Bannon also requested a debate on decentralisation. He cannot complain because Longford is doing fine and the outlook for it is great.
Senator Bannon and Senator Maurice Hayes inquired about EU legislation. The Joint Committee on European Affairs has a sub-committee which is charged with EU scrutiny of which Deputy Deasy of Fine Gael is chairman. He replaced Deputy Gay Mitchell in the post on the latter's election to the European Parliament. In addition, Senator Bradford is a member of the joint committee which, I understand, does good work. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs is also charged with scrutinising certain EU matters. Senator Bannon made a valid point about the use of this forum and I will elaborate on that when I come to deal with the points raised by Senator Maurice Hayes.
Senator Leyden also requested a debate on decentralisation. He indicated his disappointment that the jobs are not coming on stream now but made a strong case to the effect that they will come on stream.
Senator Norris inquired about a particular aircraft. I have in my possession approximately 30 pages of information that I spent yesterday procuring. I was assisted in this regard by an extremely helpful official in the Department of Foreign Affairs. The documentation provided covers many issues and lists a large number of salient facts. It indicates that the number of the aircraft concerned, which is owned by Premier Executive Transport Services, a small US airline, is N379P and that this aeroplane has used Shannon Airport on 13 occasions. I would be here until midnight if I were to read all the information contained in the documentation into the record. I will pass it on to the Senator and perhaps he, in turn, might leave it outside the Chamber on public display.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Leader for procuring the information.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I wish to state that I did not refuse to obtain this information.
David Norris (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I never said that. I must correct the record. I stated that the Leader was having difficulty obtaining the information. I also made it quite clear that she made honest and valiant efforts to obtain it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The documentation contains many interesting facts. Having perused it in its entirety from early morning, however, I am convinced that everything is in order and kosher. The good name of Shannon Airport, which Senator Dooley — who is no longer present — championed so strongly, is not besmirched by any of the facts provided.
Senator MacSharry, who has also left the Chamber, stated that we should debate the triumph of decentralisation.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Leader should not refer to Members who are absent.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How can I answer the questions they posed in that event?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Leader's answers are always given through the Chair.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I remind the House that there was very successful decentralisation in the 1970s. A total of 400 staff from the then Department of Education were decentralised to Athlone at that time and another 400 were decentralised there in the late 1980s.
Senator Coghlan inquired about the Muckross road. I am familiar with the stretch to which he referred and I am glad that no deaths occurred. I am happy for the Senator because Killarney will boom and bloom as a result of the first phase of decentralisation. Senator Maurice Hayes expressed his delight, which is shared by all Members, that Ms Annetta Flanigan has been released in Afghanistan. Of course our delight is tinged with sadness over what happened other detainees in another country. The Senator asked about the manner in which business relating to Europe is dealt with in the House. This echoed the question asked by Senator Bannon. I am aware of the work of the Joint Committee on European Affairs and the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny. At the same time there could be a more focused approach here in the Chamber on European matters. To that end, we proposed to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that MEPs take turns to come to the House. We must allow them time to find their feet but I hope that the programme can begin again next term.
Senator McCarthy asked about the Belarus project. Every area in the country has a committee engaging in that very fine work. The children are given a break, good nutrition and fresh air, all the things which are poisoned back home. I cannot understand why they do not want to send the children. The reason may relate to adoption laws. I intend to speak to Deputy Dermot Ahern, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, about the matter.
Senator Dooley made an impassioned speech about Shannon Airport. I ask Senator Norris to share the documentation received with him.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Cummins raised the issue of decentralisation. I am informed by Senator Minihan that Senator Ó Murchú raised with him the issue of having a debate on the role of the Irish language with the participation of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. The difficulty for the House is that instead of having an excess of time for debate, there will be a deficit of debating time for general issues as distinct from debate on legislation.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Senator Quinn spoke about road deaths. It is 25 November and I wonder if Members have all their Christmas shopping done. The American visitors have left the Distinguished Visitors Gallery — today is Thanksgiving Day.
Senator Glynn asked for a debate on unprovoked violence and other Senators have also called for a debate on that matter. I wish to clarify to the House that requests for debates on those issues are not being disregarded; there is simply not sufficient time between now and Christmas. Senator Coonan sought a debate on decentralisation. He suggested Tipperary as a location and was answered very gamely and valiantly by Senator Mansergh.
Senator Henry stated that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said in this House that people transiting through Shannon Airport had the protection of the Constitution while here. I agree with her that this is an important statement. Senator John Paul Phelan also asked for a debate on violence and wondered when the House would debate the budget. That debate will be held in Private Members' time.
Senator McHugh sticks to his local issues which he always defends with great vigour. He spoke about Gweedore being a blackspot and the need for decentralisation there. I remind Senator Feighan that decentralisation is coming despite all the people who did not want it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I hope that Roscommon will share in it. With Senator Leyden and the Senator standing up for Roscommon, it will come about.
Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Shannon will be drained by then.