Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on waste management, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, Senators may share time and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; No. 2, statements on the ESRI mid-term review of the national development plan, to be taken at 3 p.m. and to conclude not later than 6 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes, Senators may share time and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements; and No.13, motion No. 35, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 3 p.m.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Leader will be aware that the Government is planning to roll out electronic voting next year for local and European elections to ensure people can vote by the electronic method in each polling station throughout the country. There is general support for this even though it will cost approximately €38 million this year to implement the proposal. Both principal Opposition parties have raised questions about the security system in place for the new system of voting. It is important to have a debate in this House with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government who can take questions on the issue from all sides over approximately 40 minutes. As the integrity of the ballot is the cornerstone of our democracy, it is important that there is confidence in the security system and that there is acceptance from all parties. Will the Leader make time available for such a debate over the next week or so? It would be a worthwhile debate because it is important that all the questions on the issue are answered before the system is rolled out.

I agree fully with Senator John Paul Phelan's comments yesterday when he asked the Leader to organise a debate on the arts and funding for the arts. We are approaching the centenary of the founding of the Abbey Theatre, our great national theatre in Dublin, which was established in 1903. The first performance took place in 1904. The Leader will be aware that there is a huge debate in Dublin and throughout the country about the future of the Abbey – whether it is to be moved, future funding for the theatre and the proposals from the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism about this great national institution. Will she make time available for a debate in this House to allow discussion not just on the general issue of arts but also to allow the Abbey Theatre and its future role in this great city to be debated and teased out?

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I congratulate the Leader on her new television career.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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What happens outside the House is a matter for the Leader, not for this House.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It would be churlish of us to ignore it.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate the Senator on his book.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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There is an article in yesterday and today's newspapers about the proposal to build a golf course on Bartragh Island off Ballina. I do not play golf and I wonder about people who spend a lot of time at it. On the other hand, it is a hugely important tourism attraction and one of the most eco-friendly pursuits. I am aware it is very important to protect the Kerry slug, the natterjack toad and other creatures. If there were damage to the environment, I would be very clear on my position. There is no hotel along the coast of north Mayo from Belmullet. Mayo has now lost the gas pipeline and has experienced a landslide. The golf course is proposed for an area a little further along the coast where the people seem to get no breaks. We could pick any acre of Ireland and find a good reason for not putting a shovel in the ground. We should take a compromise position on these issues; the truth is that if we were to take the extreme position, we would not even be cutting our lawns. I would like to hear the Government's view on the national plan and where it stands on this type of proposal which will damage the area.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I would counsel caution on things like golf courses. The citizens of the greater Cork area have been deprived access to the Old Head of Kinsale—

Peter Callanan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator was never there.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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—because of an extraordinary succession of decisions by the High Court and Supreme Court in the case of the property rights of perhaps the most exclusive golf course in the country. I do not know if Senator Callanan is a member, but he obviously knows more about it than I do. I am not prepared to accept that golf courses are necessarily eco-friendly if the price of that eco-friendliness is to exclude the vast majority of local people.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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They are vital for tourism.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I do not want to see that sort of tourism if it means excluding local people from services.

Earlier this week the heads of the Irish universities raised, as they have done on a number of occasions, the question of cutbacks in third level education. It is probably correct to say that primary education is more important, which it is, but the truth is that all levels of education are extremely important. However, the area which will have an immediate effect on national competitiveness is a cutback in third level education. It is a matter for the Government to sort out what it believes in. If it is saying that fewer people will graduate from our third level institutions, then it is effectively saying it is going for a lower skilled workforce. As this will have an immediate effect on the country's capacity to develop economically, there is an urgent need for a debate on funding for third level education in particular, and also the funding of research in third level education. I would like the Leader to consider this issue.

Last night a leaflet from Sinn Féin was put through my door. The last paragraph read, "Sinn Féin is dedicated to forcing a British withdrawal from the occupied Six Counties." I heard the President of Sinn Féin say the direct opposite less than two weeks ago. All of us on this island are entitled to know which is the real Sinn Féin. Is it the one which is dedicated to forcing a British withdrawal, which means forcing one million people who are British to withdraw or, alternatively, is it the nice, touchy feely language of inclusion which is articulated in Belfast when it is politically necessary? Is this a case of Sinn Féin revealing a different side because it is 200 miles south of the Border? Oireachtas Members would like to know which is the real Sinn Féin.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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The huge gas explosion which occurred in the south Dublin area is a very important issue. The confidence of people not just in south Dublin but throughout Ireland has been undermined by the fact that subsidence in footpaths may damage old piping. While I am not an alarmist, this could happen in any part of Ireland. Having discussed the matter with the various agencies, whether Eircom, Bord Gáis or the local authorities, the Minister should make a statement in this House on the condition of the piping in various parts of the country. This would help to restore confidence among the public.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes's request for the Minister to come to this House to answer questions on electronic voting. I am fully in favour of electronic voting because anyone who goes through a close count will be aware of the emotion and anguish one's family and supporters experience. I will tell the Minister that it is very infuriating to find returning officers not franking ballot papers, which are then excluded from the count. I welcome electronic voting because there is no traceability in the current system as a result of the negligence of returning officers who fail to frank papers. I know from personal experience that this happened and it is very annoying.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I join Senator Ormonde in expressing concern about the gas explosion in Dublin last week on which the Health and Safety Authority will issue a report. It is important that that report is published immediately. This week the Commission for Energy Regulation is offering tenders for gas supply to 7,000 homes in the midlands and west. There are concerns not only in Dublin with its older buildings, but throughout the country, and confidence must be restored.

In his book, Looking Under Stones, which I started to read last night, Senator O'Toole has claimed not to be a golfer but the worst footballer Kerry has ever produced.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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That is correct.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I did not get far into the book and I did not see how that occurred.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The contents of the book are not relevant to the Order of Business.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I was raising it only to make the point that another sport in which I have taken an interest, as have many others, in recent weeks is rugby. I was impressed at the response to Ireland's Call instead of the national anthem, by those who played rugby in Australia last week, and again this weekend, and the way the Thirty-two Counties' anthem was being used. I wonder if it is time to rethink our national anthem. I am a great lover of our national anthem. At Croke Park, I love to hear it sung so well as Gaeilge. When we come to a point of having a Thirty-two Counties anthem, should we have a rethink? I am not sure if this is a job for the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Deputy Donie Cassidy might compose it.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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Let us at least consider whether it is better to have a Twenty-six Counties or Thirty-two Counties anthem. If it were decided to opt for the latter, Ireland's Call might suit the part.

Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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I asked about a week ago for a debate on stem cell research in view of the vote to be taken on 27 November. An Oireachtas committee has just rejected the proposal in question. It is important the House has a chance to debate the matter because civil servants have just told us that Ireland will vote to destroy human embryos if this vote goes ahead. A good end is never justified by evil means. Members deserve an opportunity to debate the matter before the vote is taken.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I support the call by many Members yesterday for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House and outline how he will deal with gangland crime. Given that those calls were made yesterday, did the Leader speak to the Minister yesterday and, if so, has she a response for us as to when he might come to the Seanad? While these days we tend to think only of gangland crime, the findings of a survey published yesterday show an 18% increase in the number of burglaries in Dublin and a 25% increase in burglaries in the rest of the country. Crime is a major issue and we must not lose sight of the types of crime that exist in the community. I look forward to the Leader's response on her discussions with the Minister yesterday.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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I join previous speakers in calling for a debate on the arts – we have not had such a debate to date – to allow me the opportunity to highlight the plight of the Cork School of Music, which I have highlighted on a number of occasions. Equally, I wish to join with Senator Lydon in calling for a debate on stem cell research. However, I disagree fundamentally with what he said. It is dangerous to say we would be destroying human life by voting for the proposal.

Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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I have been speaking to the civil servants.

John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)
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The matter needs to be clarified straightaway because the last thing we want here is a fractured debate that is not based on facts. If one makes statements such as that made by Senator Lydon, one should quote specifically the legislative basis on which the statement is based. My understanding is that we are still awaiting interpretation of the Constitution and a Supreme Court ruling on this fundamental issue. There is need for a debate to bring clarity to statements such as that.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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If I could heal the rift between the two Government parties, it would be helpful to the House.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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I wish to change the subject and say a few words about the economy. The Exchequer returns were produced yesterday and they were not too bad. Let us congratulate the Government as things are going rather better than expected. There is one problem to which I should draw attention and it would be useful if the House were to debate it. Some figures were produced last week on what is known as private sector debt, indicating that individuals in their personal lives are borrowing phenomenal amounts of money. That is manifesting itself most obviously in the housing market. What we see here is a real problem of debt, growing by about 25% per annum, particularly among young people. A problem will arise if interest rates increase. If they rise steeply, the problem will be critical and will lead to the repossession of houses and people being bankrupted. It will lead to people not being able to pay their credit card bills. I suggest the Minister comes into the House to address this problem. I ask, in particular, that he address the problem of lending by the banks and the building societies which is so rash and reckless that these institutions no longer look for multiples of income when lending money for houses. They do not care about multiples of income but about how much equity or value is in the house, as opposed to the loan. This indicates they are looking at repossessions, not at ability to pay. At the end of the day, the price we will pay could be appalling. We could get into a negative equity situation in this country which would be a massive economic problem. I do not wish to denigrate the Government's achievements in turning the economy around—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has received fair latitude.

Shane Ross (Independent)
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—in a difficult global situation. The Government has done reasonably well and it is right for Members on this side to acknowledge that.

Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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When discussing the liquor licensing laws recently we may have forgotten the effect of the legislation on youth clubs and sports clubs which wish to organise discos and, in particular, the No Name Club, a national body based in Kilkenny, which organises discos where no alcohol is served. It should be possible to allow these discos to continue by closing down a bar where no alcoholic drinks would be served. Young people would still have the buzz and the atmosphere of the disco. Under the current legislation, there is a difficulty for organisations such as the No Name club in holding a disco. This issue should be examined. I understand the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is favourably disposed towards making a slight change in the law to allow those discos to continue. When the Minister comes into the House, I ask that we debate this issue also.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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In recent months the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government requested local authorities to seek a €10,000 development levy from home owners. This will hit voluntary bodies, sporting organisations and so on and will have a huge impact on the cost of housing throughout the country. In addition, the Minister proposes to introduce a new €600 fee for the emptying of septic tanks. These two stealth taxes follow the abolition of housing grants last year. It is important that we have debate on this issue which will affect our young people. Local authority waiting lists will grow as a result of this type of action. We should have a debate in the near future.

Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I support Senator Lydon's request for a debate on stem cell research. There is a question regarding whether we adhere to the position we take in European debates on the issue. The science is expanding at such a rate that it is not possible to wait for a Supreme Court decision which may not move us much further down the line. Therefore, a debate would be appropriate.

I also add modest support to Senator Quinn's call for a rethink of our national anthem. The national anthem was fine for its time and expressed the spirit of that time. However, I am not sure it still expresses the ethos of the nation, which is largely pacifist and anti-violence. I find it difficult to explain to my children living in the North the importance of abjuring violence and the futility of armed struggle while at the same time encouraging them to sing the national anthem. The same is true of other national anthems. The Marseillaise is an absolutely bloody affair and if one goes past the first stanza of God Save the Queen it is horribly sectarian and narrow. These anthems have had their day. The spirit of the nation is rather different now and it is time to move on.

Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader request the Minister for Education and Science to come to the House to explain his stance on primary level teacher training? His lack of consultation with the established traditional teacher training bodies has raised their concerns, and that of students, regarding the proposed Hibernia College on-line teacher training course. While I recognise there is a shortage of national school teachers and that many schools have had to rely on untrained teachers for years, I hope the Minister will come in and clarify his position regarding the future of a course such as that being provided by Hibernia College and also his failure to consult established and traditional bodies as to their future. If it is the situation that the cutbacks in education manifest themselves through the shortcutting of teacher training, the issue should be debated. I hope this debate takes place quickly in order to focus people's attention on what we should be doing rather than on outside protests. We must focus particularly on the qualification of suitable numbers of teachers to provide adequately for children at primary level.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I too support Senator Lydon's call for a debate on stem cell research. We have had particularly subdued exposure to this area. Debate on the issue need not be fractious but could underline the concept that citizens are entitled to be made aware of anything that fundamentally concerns them. The slightest possibility that human life would be destroyed to help other human life raises questions for all of society.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I also support the call for debate on stem cell research. We have encouraged the biotechnology industry to come and invest heavily in Ireland. Therefore, we must be sure what will be promoted here. It may not be research being done here that causes a problem but the techniques which are brought in for production in the factories.

Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Kitt's call for another look at the legislation regarding young people using facilities such as bars and lounges. From my experience of rural areas I know that the only place teenage discos were held was in the local bar because there was no community hall for them. This is a problem. The only place young members of rural GAA, soccer and youth clubs have to socialise in is a licensed premises. When the Bill was being debated in the Seanad, Senator Ormonde raised this issue with the Minister who said he was prepared to look at it again, and that should be done.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes's call for further debate on electronic voting. Not only are there questions about the security of the system, but voters have not been given any information on it. What training is in place for presiding officers and polling clerks? Notwithstanding what Senator Finucane said about the appalling practice in some places of presiding officers not stamping ballots, we need to hear more on the issue of electronic voting.

I share Senator O'Toole's sentiments with regard to Bartragh Island in Killala Bay. Slugs, snails, toads and insect life have done well on account of all the eco-friendly, nature-friendly places throughout the land. In particular, the natterjack toad has survived very healthily on the famous Dooks links between Glenbeigh and Killorglin. As the Cathaoirleach would probably know, the natterjack toad is the emblem of the club.

Frank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Scanlon and Senator Kitt's proposal regarding a review of the legislation on licensing hours. The legislation has a detrimental effect on tourism. Rural Ireland does not have other facilities and tourists have to bring their children into bars and restaurants. I have also been approached on this issue by traditional musicians. We have many traditional music weekends around the country, especially in the summer, where skills are handed down at workshops by day. However, most of the revered musicians, with whom young musicians want to play, perform in the bars where young people will not be allowed at night. This will affect the handing on of the traditional arts.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes raised the issue of electronic voting. Both Opposition parties have brought forward papers on the subject and have requested a debate. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, would be interested in speaking in the House on the matter. He is not well at present, but I will ask him to come to the House for such a debate soon.

The Opposition called for an arts debate yesterday. This is a good call, particularly in this centenary year of the Abbey Theatre. Senator O'Toole raised the issue of Bartragh Island. The divergence of opinion on the issue is interesting. Everybody has their own opinion. I was surprised to hear people were against a plan which I thought sounded good. Senator Ryan urged caution on the matter of golf courses. Where there are good golf courses people, particularly tourists, have come to play and have brought a lot of money to local areas. Senator Ryan also raised the topic of third level colleges, particularly the cutbacks in research, and stressed the necessity of research for third level colleges. The Senator also discussed the matter of the Sinn Féin leaflet which, I believe, is of a local nature. He asked which was the real Sinn Féin, the one that co-exists with other parties or the one that wishes to root out everybody else. Perhaps the Senator might show the leaflet to me, as I have not seen it.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I expect the Leader feels they did not all mean it.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator may be sure of it. I recall a case a number of years ago with a particular presiding officer where 27 ballot papers went through unfranked. Although it did not affect that particular election, they were wasted votes. There was no record at all. I favour electronic voting and I hope it can be fully explained in the debate we will have here and that any fears will be laid to rest.

Senator Quinn agreed with Senator Ormonde's comments concerning the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern. The Senator also raised a very interesting point about a new national anthem. It is instructive to see the way Ireland's Call is treated and sung. So often, national anthems are not sung on pitches but everyone still knows them. The sentiment of actually being at a match, with the crowds and the anthem rolling is quite strong. This topic was also taken up by another speaker.

Senator Lydon raised the topic of stem cell research. Months ago, Senator Henry asked for that debate here. We can have a debate. I understand a committee is sitting at present which is examining this subject. Senator Minihan was correct when he called for all of the facts to be discussed and for a full debate on this matter. I hope that nobody would make rash, unfounded statements but that we would establish the facts.

Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Terry raised the issue of crime levels. Yesterday, there were calls in this House, as there were in the other House, concerning action by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, who took Private Notice Questions in the Dáil. I attended the launch of Senator O'Toole's book and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was still answering those questions. I hope to make contact with him today to ask him to attend this House because there is general concern about these matters. I feel that he would be keen to accept our invitation. He spoke about the general increase in burglaries, which rose by 18% and 25% throughout the country.

Senator Minihan echoed the call for a debate on the arts. That would be very useful and it is amazing that we have not had one to date. We had a Bill on tourism from the Department. The Government will be glad to hear the kind words of Senator Ross on the Exchequer returns. The Senator also expressed concern at the way banks are operating lending policies.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Just toads.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Only toads. I thought that it was slugs and snails as well. The Senator is in favour, as I am, of electronic voting. The Senator said they all had their day; they have had a fair day. The Senator asked whether the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, could attend the House. He is on our list but the issue seems to have receded. However, we should ask him to attend the House.

Senator Feighan discussed young people, echoing the call of Senator Kitt but advancing the discussion further to include traditional musicians. The Minister said he would look at this issue again.

Order of Business agreed to.