Seanad debates
Thursday, 26 June 2003
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion to approve the National Council for Special Education (Establishment) Order, 2003, which was referred to the Joint Committee on Education and Science and on which the committee has completed its discussions, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Opticians (Amendment) Bill 2002 – Report and Final Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 11.10 a.m., approximately; No. 3, Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Bill 2002 – Second Stage, to be taken on conclusion of No. 2 and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and on which Senators may share time, the Minister to be called to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; No. 4, statements on disability to mark the Special Olympics World Summer Games 2003, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and conclude not later than 4 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed seven minutes and on which Members may share time. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the suggestion made yesterday on the Order of Business and thank the Leader for including in today's Order Paper statements on disability to mark the Special Olympics World Summer Games. It is a positive development.
My group has placed motion No. 33 on the Order Paper. I raised the issue yesterday and would like to return to it today. It arises from the UN Court of Arbitration ruling against the British Government on the Sellafield site. The net point is that the UN court has rightly determined that the Irish Government has a right to information on safety at Sellafield, or, at the very least, should be consulted by the British Government and British Nuclear Fuels. Will the Leader agree to take this motion on which I do not think there is disagreement on an all-party basis at some stage next week? We now have an opportunity to put it up to the British Government to allow our inspectorate, the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, on site at Sellafield to ensure independent monitoring of the facility and that independent and objective information is given to the Irish Government and the people through our inspectorate. Now is the time to do this.
The British-Irish Council is not suspended, unlike the Northern Ireland Assembly and the North-South Ministerial Council. I understand there will be a meeting next December and that in September there will be a meeting of Environment Ministers from all of the islands. This is a key issue when it comes to east-west relationships between these islands. At the very least, our inspectorate should be on site at the Sellafield facility. I ask that the motion be taken on an all-party basis some time next week. I believe the Government would welcome this and know the people would welcome independent monitoring of the facility at Sellafield.
The reality is that New Labour in Britain is committed to a nuclear future. Nuclear power will continue to be the source of some 20% of its energy supplies over the next ten years. That is the reality of politics in Britain. We must find a way to ensure the information we are given is accurate, independent and impartial, which is the reason our inspectorate should be on site.
There is a lot of pessimism concerning Northern Ireland. Perhaps there could be a short debate next week, or certainly in the new session, on what the Government is planning to do with the British Government to give the talks process a kick start. A possible suggestion I might put to the Government is that a meeting be called of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation in order that momentum is continued and pro-Agreement parties continue to meet on a regular basis to give support to the process. If the vacuum continues, the only ones who will fill it are those who have no interest in peace and are totally committed to wrecking the process, which we need to support with all the pro-Agreement parties in Unionist, Nationalist and republican Ireland which are prepared to make the necessary compromises.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is appropriate that we should be aware of what is happening in Europe at the conclusion of the debate on the farm talks which will have a huge impact on this country. We should look for a full report on the issue in this House and try to make the debate a little better than the last one by considering the future for Irish farmers and farming. It appears they are being squeezed in the middle, which affects parts of rural Ireland and all that is happening there. We, as a country, are ignoring what is happening in rural areas. I referred previously to the reduction in infrastructure and I am not just talking about main roads from one main urban centre to another. The fact is that one can now draw up a long list of towns, including Kilrush, Tuam, Ballinrobe and Kilbeggan, which do not even have a hotel anymore. We have had discussions here about what is happening in terms of schools being closed down in certain areas. There is a lack of decentralisation and rail infrastructure. There was a discussion recently about the Athenry connection on the Sligo-Limerick line.
One of the problems in this House is that Members are focusing too much on their own constituencies – I am not saying this in a critical way – and not looking at the broad picture, which is that rural Ireland is being slowed down and the lights are being turned out slowly. There should be a more committed Government position on the issue of decentralisation and development, a matter raised by Senator MacSharry yesterday and by Senator Feighan. I would like to have a full debate on the issue where Members would give their views, make proposals and get a positive response from the Government.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I want to raise the issue of the two reports published yesterday dealing with the financing of long-term care for the elderly, that is, the expenditure review of the nursing home subvention scheme, and the study of future financing of long-term care. These are comprehensive reports which point to a number of issues and technicalities relating to this area. One indicates that the number who have availed of the nursing home subvention scheme since it began in 1994 has grown from more than 3,000 to 8,300. The other highlights four ways in which future care for the elderly can be financed. These include private insurance, for example, or a general increase in taxation, savings from the individuals being cared for, including their homes and, most alarmingly, an increase of 1.5% in the level of PRSI to finance this level of care in the future.
The report also highlights an issue we have debated at length in this House, that is, the abolition of the means test for carers. It is high time carers received the assistance that they need from the State. The report highlights this deficiency in the system. I welcome the recent announcement by the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, that he is willing to consider abolishing the means-test for carer's allowance. I ask the Leader of the House to arrange for a debate on the issue. I am aware we are taking statements on disability this afternoon and thank the Leader for arranging them. However, it would be worthwhile to debate the merits of these reports.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I join in the request to the Leader for a debate at the earliest possible opportunity on the outcome of the CAP reform talks which took place this week. In doing so, we should congratulate the Minister for Agriculture and Food on ensuring the future of the Common Agricultural Policy is secure, in particular, on securing an increase in the amount of butter available to intervention, protecting the milk quota, securing the slaughter premium for Ireland and maintaining cereal prices. He has achieved a lot, contrary to what has been said by the president of the Irish Farmers Association. It is also rather fascile of the president to say the Minister was worn down by having to stay up all night. It has been a feature of the talks since the late Mr. Gibbons and Mr. Clinton were Ministers for Agriculture and Food to have them go on into the early hours of the morning and well into the following day. The Minister has shown that he is capable of staying, not just for one day but for several days, to conclude a successful deal, for which he is to be commended. He said some detail needed to be worked out in relation to the technical aspects. Perhaps we should have the debate next week rather than tomorrow. However, we should have it before we rise, if possible.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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The Equal Status Act has now been on the Statute Book for over five years. The purpose behind it was to ensure equality of treatment for all sections of the community, particularly minorities, and end discrimination. It seems the pendulum has now swung in the other direction. I am talking, in particular, about the right of access of members of the Traveller community to public houses. Just over one week ago 11 campers arrived in my constituency in County Mayo. They were duly served in accordance with the legislation, refused to leave the premises and literally wrecked it. This has been an ongoing feature over the past two or three years. I attended a meeting of the Vintners Federation in Mayo the following night and heard complaint after complaint. In one case, a lady publican stated that when she had served a certain amount of drink to individuals, they refused to leave, saying "We'll redesign your place, Madam."
The situation in our county, in particular, has been appalling. There is an urgent need to revisit the legislation, consider it section by section in order and ensure that the pendulum swings equally on both sides. Publicans are very vulnerable, they have no right of protection and are totally exposed. We need to examine the legislation, as a matter of extreme urgency, because further tensions between the settled community and the Traveller community will arise unless we get the balance right.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I wish the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, every success on his peace mission to Palestine. As Members will be aware, he is meeting Yasser Arafat and the Prime Minister, Mahmoud Abbas. The Minister, on foot of the experience he gained during the negotiations on Northern Ireland, is doing his utmost to bring about peace in that region. He is a courageous Minister visiting a troubled and dangerous land. The Israelis are not happy about his decision to go to Palestine, but I commend the Minister on being prepared to go there to try to bring about peace in that region.
I also want to thank the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Joe Walsh, on his excellent performance at the negotiations. It is extraordinary that, within minutes of the Minister concluding a very important deal for this country, the president of the largest farmers' organisation condemned it without being aware of the details. I ask the individual in question to be restrained in his approach until he sees—
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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In the same way Members on the Government side can congratulate the Minister without seeing the deal. We are starting all over again.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Leyden know the details?
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Our Minister has been negotiating for a long time. He is the most experienced Minister for Agriculture in Europe. He has concluded a very important deal. I would like to see the details being brought before the House before the summer recess, but I will not allow anybody to condemn a deal when they are not aware of the details of it. I am entitled to commend the Minister because I trust and know him.
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden does not know the detail yet.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I know the Minister and I know what he said. I heard him on "Morning Ireland" and he knew what he was talking about. However, the leader of the IFA was not briefed on the issue.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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When we have the debate, the Senators can raise those points. I call Senator Norris.
(Interruptions).
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I would not trust Fine Gael's crowd in there at present.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Norris.
(Interruptions).
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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When he next comes to Limerick, I will introduce them to him.
Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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He was the Padre Pio of Irish politics.
David Norris (Independent)
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Would it be possible to contain Senator Leyden?
(Interruptions).
Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should withdraw that.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris, without interruption.
David Norris (Independent)
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Without interruption and without fingers.
David Norris (Independent)
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I strongly support Senator Brian Hayes in terms of what he said about Sellafield, particularly in light of the fact that in recent days radioactively contaminated salmon was found in supermarkets in Britain. This contamination came about as a result of a fish farming process where the fish were apparently fed with pellets made from fishmeal from fish caught in the Irish Sea. Any level of contamination is a cause for concern and we are entitled to be protected against it, particularly when one considers the method by which these fish became contaminated. The way these unnatural products were fed to these unfortunate creatures led to the problems, which bear a horrible resemblance to what happened in the case of BSE, that have occurred. I support Senator Brian Hayes's point that it should be an all-party motion. We should be united on this; there should not be any reason for scoring partisan points.
It also might be appropriate if we had a debate on the fishing industry in general and the fact that it is extremely difficult to get some of our best products. We simply have not woken up to the fact that among the best things we can do in the catering industry is prepare our own naturally occurring products well. It is difficult. One does not often get decent crab in a restaurant nowadays. One is presented with soft-shell crabs, New England crabcakes, etc. Why do we not return to using our own raw materials, such as prawns, which are superb.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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We do not frequent those kinds of restaurants, I am afraid.
David Norris (Independent)
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This is a serious economic element of the fishing industry. It may appear frivolous, but that is not the case. Lobster and prawns, for example are exported from this country. One can get them in Paris but not here. If we treat our excellent raw materials with respect, it will help us to develop our tourist industry. Instead of giving tourists from abroad these little waterlogged efforts from the Far East – tiger prawns that taste like rubber tyres – we should give them good Dublin Bay prawns.
Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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It has been eight and a half months since the Northern institutions were suspended. Even on a best case scenario, they are unlikely to be restored before 12 months are out. I, therefore, support the call for consideration of this matter before the recess in order to help all parties, not just the Governments, to consider what needs to be done to ensure a participative and inclusive peace, with justice and stability, in Northern Ireland.
I also support calls for an objective debate and laying out of what was achieved in Brussels overnight. It is obviously too early to assess the position, but the Minister for Agriculture and Food has a great track record in negotiating for Ireland. I am sure he has done as well as it is possible to do on this occasion.
I echo calls for a debate on Sellafield. The interest of this country in avoiding contamination and disaster is obvious. The angle on which the British Government may be vulnerable is the billions of pounds that are poured down the nuclear black hole without any obvious return. One always wonders the extent to which this is compatible with EU competition rules, which are so strict about investing even €100 million into airlines or anything of that nature.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator O'Toole's call for a proactive debate on agriculture. On the last occasion on which we discussed this matter the debate was similar to a tennis match at Wimbledon; it was merely a point-scoring political exercise. Farming is in trouble and I am a little concerned – perhaps the Senator opposite received prior notice – at the commendation and the praise being heaped on the Minister when we have absolutely no idea about the contents of the deal made in Brussels.
I am aware that the farming lobby groups felt disenfranchised during the entire process. My party called for a debate on agriculture in the Lower House and was refused, at all times, by the Minister. It is, therefore, somewhat premature and naive to congratulate a Minister when many people and representatives were disenfranchised during the debate.
A total of 6,500 acres in the Finn Valley area in Donegal have been designated SACs. The problem we and the farming community have with that is there was absolutely no consultation; the Minister for the Environment and Local Government merely listed the farms on a map. The farmers involved are entitled to be aggrieved and they believe that this lack of consultation is endemic to the Government.
Michael Kitt (Fianna Fail)
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I echo the compliments to the Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Agriculture and Food, Deputies Cowen and Walsh, on their performance in the negotiations in which they were involved. I hope that we will have an opportunity to discuss the results of the farm negotiations next week. Whatever about the detail, we can get more information at that stage. We also note that the Minister has obtains options for this country, which is extremely important.
Some weeks ago, I raised the reduction in the number of J1 and J2 visas for young Irish people going to the United States. Many young people who in the past took a chance in going to the United States are effectively trapped there and cannot return home on holidays or for family occasions. Yesterday I heard of a serious case of a woman married to an American man who was back in Longford and could not return to the United States. There appears to be a serious tightening of the visa regime. I would like the Leader to see if we can get some information on this and perhaps have a debate on emigration, visas and related issues in order that people can get out of the difficult situation in which they find themselves.
Mary Henry (Independent)
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A framework convention on tobacco control was adopted by the World Health Organisation at the end of last month. This is the first global health treaty. The Minister for Health and Children has a very good record on tobacco control. This treaty needs to be signed and ratified by 40 member states of the United Nations in order to come into force. The Leader should encourage the Minister to allow Ireland to become one of the early signatories of the convention which addresses a very important health issue.
Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Relationships between Ireland and Britain are particularly good at the moment. The main reason for this is the partnership that exists regarding Northern Ireland. However, one area still requires attention – perhaps we could have a debate on it – that is, the in-built bias in the judicial system against Irish people. A young Irishman from Carrick-on-Suir, Christy McGrath, is languishing in prison. He was convicted in the most dubious of circumstances on the basis of very questionable evidence. Senior parliamentarians in Britain and Ireland have come out in support of him, as have many personalities in other walks of life. He is now seeking an appeal and is represented by the well-known solicitor Gareth Pearce. I fear that he may languish in prison for ten years before an appeal is granted.
One year ago a Clonmel man was released, having served almost 30 years, and his conviction was overturned. He was another innocent man who spent almost his whole life in prison. It is time to reach an understanding with the British Government that its judicial system should be impartial and fair when dealing with Irish people. Christy McGrath is a leading jockey who comes from a very respectable family and is supported by his local community. The only hope we have is that the Houses of the Oireachtas will take the lead in this regard.
Maurice Hayes (Independent)
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I support the request for a debate to review the state of play in Northern Ireland in order to ensure there is no political void. Coming from the County Down coast, I know the issue of Sellafield is of great interest, not only to the people living there but also to the fishing industry. While I do not want to start another food scare, the best of what passes for Dublin Bay prawns are caught in the outfall of Sellafield.
Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with those speakers who have called for a debate on the CAP reform policy agreed last night. In answer to Senator McHugh, it is wrong to say the different organisations were not consulted. I am a member of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food which has met all the groups, the IFA, the ICAS and the ICMSA.
Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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What about the SAC categories which come under the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a discussion across the floor.
Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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The record should be put straight. It is very hard for the Minister to fight the cause when different farming groups are moving in different directions, which was the case. The IFA was totally against decoupling.
Eamon Scanlon (Fianna Fail)
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Halfway through it changed its mind and decided it wanted decoupling. It is very hard for the Minister. We will have to wait and see what is contained.
Senator O'Toole mentioned rural development. I do not agree that rural areas are dying. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, has responsibility for rural development. Funding from the CLÁR programme, which he introduced, is bringing rural communities back to life. This funding is providing roads for people who had no roads, with sewerage and water schemes which are making a difference, particularly in my area in the north-west.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes suggested having a debate on Private Members' motion No. 33. That would be suitable and I am amenable to it. I hope the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, can come here next week to debate it. I just need to get confirmation. The Senator also asked for a debate on Northern Ireland before we finish. We are moving on this. He also requested the reconvening of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, which is chaired by one of our distinguished Senators. While we can see if that would be an option, I will recommend a debate on Northern Ireland before we finish.
Senator O'Toole spoke about the CAP reform talks and in more general terms how rural life is affected by depopulation and other related issues. I agree with the request of Senator Dardis for a debate at the earliest possible opportunity on the outcome of the CAP reform talks.
Senator McCarthy spoke about the financing of long-term care for the elderly and the two reports issued yesterday. I read that the number availing of nursing home subvention has grown from 3,000 to 8,000 in just a few years. This will be important in years to come. While we still have the youngest population in Europe, its ageing has crept up on us almost unnoticed until now. The Senator also spoke about the abolition of the means-test for carers, a matter on which I know the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Callely, is working.
Senator Higgins called for a review of the Equal Status Act following the incident highlighted in a pub in County Mayo. This would be suitable. Acts are often appropriate to needs at the time they are introduced. Systems, views and attitudes can change and progress is made. It may be time to look at it the other way around.
Senator Mansergh highlighted the fact that it was eight and a half months since the Northern Ireland institutions were suspended and supported the call for debates on Northern Ireland, the CAP reform talks and Sellafield. While we also have to deal with a considerable amount of legislation next week, those issues have now emerged as important.
Senator McHugh called for a proactive debate on agriculture with a focus on SACs. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has undertaken a review while Seán Duignan has been appointed as chairman of the appeals board in the review process. As SACs are the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, they will not arise in our debate on agriculture.
Senator Kitt spoke about J1 and J2 visas. Tales abound about difficulties people are having. Since the introduction of the homeland security arrangements, security has become much tighter. I will ask the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Tom Kitt, who has responsibility for this matter, for an update.
Two days ago Senator MacSharry highlighted the issue of planning matters. This is a major issue and there is unanimity in the House with regard to how it should be tackled. I do not know if there will be time to deal with it before the recess. I hope we can meet and work out a formula in order that we can deal with it, at an early stage, after the summer recess. It is an issue in respect of which debate is deemed to be necessary.