Seanad debates
Tuesday, 4 March 2003
Order of Business.
2:30 pm
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business shall be No. 1, Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, with the contributions of spokespersons for each group not to exceed 30 minutes – this follows requests from two or three of the parties that speaking time be increased from 20 minutes to 30 minutes, to which I am glad to accede – and those of all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes and on which Senators may share time, the debate to commence at the conclusion of the Order of Business, to continue until 5 p.m. and resume at 7 p.m. and continue until everyone who wishes to speak has spoken; No. 2, statements on the Convention on the Future of Europe, during which we will have the presence of the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Roche, to be taken from 5 p.m. until 7p.m.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I propose an amendment to the Order of Business: that No. 1 be deleted, that the matter not be debated until such time as the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service organises a meaningful review and consultation with all interested parties on the operation of the Freedom of Information Act 1997 and that any proposal or proposals to amend the principal legislation prior to the conclusion of such a review be regarded by Seanad Éireann as premature.
My party will oppose today's Order of Business as the Leader is, in effect, proposing a guillotine of our proceedings in the House tonight and, in a most unseemly way, attempting to rush through what is poorly thought out and ill-considered legislation. The Government is wrong to rush it through the House. The Bill was published only on Friday. Most colleagues received it in their post either yesterday or today. We have not been given enough time for any kind of review of the matter to take place. None of the players involved in the freedom of information regime has been properly consulted by any committee of the Oireachtas. For us to advance the Government's proposal at this stage would be wrong and completely against the all-party spirit in which the Freedom of Information Act was put in place in 1997.
I understood the objective of the alleged watchdog, the Progressive Democrats, was to keep an eye on Fianna Fáil.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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When Citizen McDowell was up his lamp post in Donnybrook last summer, his message was that he would keep an eye on proceedings. How the worm has turned. The alleged mould breakers have now become the poodles of Fianna Fáil in government. This is a bad day for them.
(Interruptions).
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I am sure we all send our best wishes to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the talks on Northern Ireland and wish the talks well. Will the Leader assure the House that when a conclusion is reached, which we hope will be positive, we will be able to discuss the matter in the House this week?
Will colleagues join the Committees on Procedure and Privileges in supporting the legal challenge to the absurd ruling of the Morris tribunal in respect of the case being taken by Senator Jim Higgins and Deputy Howlin? Will colleagues on all sides support them in ensuring the principle of parliamentary privilege, enshrined in the Constitution, is maintained?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Everyone must agree that the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 is being rushed through. It is the revenge of Sir Humphrey to get the Bill spun through as quickly as possible and all the pain over with in one day by pulling all the teeth together. It reflects badly on the Government. Senator Hayes's proposal has much merit. While we all agree that certain amendments should be made to the legislation, we object to the replacement of open government with a Stalinist iron curtain around information on the workings of government.
Martin ManserghJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I thought the Senator would like that.
Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole knows it is not true.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The progressive wing of the Government is upset by this but, unfortunately, that is where matters stand. We have not had an assessment of how well or badly the Act is working. In the main it is working very well. However, issues need and can be addressed. The contents of the Bill have taken everyone by surprise. There has been no consultation with those who use the legislation, including the NUJ, Senator Ross's union. I know my right wing colleague is upset by the idea of access to the workings of the Establishment but this must take place. Consultation is an essential part of any review which has not taken place. I will save my comments on the Bill until we debate it. I am simply giving the reasons I am supporting Senator Brian Hayes's proposal which the Government should consider.
Last week I raised the question of having a debate on public private partnerships. I said unidentifiable forces were at work to upscuttle their proper workings. Such partnerships allow the State to get support from the private sector to give better public service in a way that is attractive to all. One of the reasons given for objecting to PPPs is that EUROSTAT maintains public private partnerships impact on the Government's bottom line. In a recent statement Mr. Pat Cox made it clear that this was not the case.
We have been led to believe – I have not had time to check it – that, for example, the Cork School of Music project was scuttled on the basis that it was having an impact on the Government's bottom line, which is untrue. Clarification is required. I will not point the finger at anybody until we discover who has been making these statements. The Minister for Finance could do much to help us. Perhaps, this afternoon, as a gesture on FOI, he might decide to deal with some of these issues.
We have had many debates in the House on corruption in planning. There have been all sorts of inquiries into who received money, who obtained receipts and what was built. If what happened in Loughrea this week happened in north Dublin, we would oblige people to climb trees in order to find out what happened.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I compliment Senator Ulick Burke on taking a brave stand on this issue. It is something that should concern every Member. There should be an inquiry into what is happening in planning in Galway. This is not a political or a party issue; everyone in the House should seek to discover why these questions are being asked. Those on Galway County Council should recognise that they are not separate from the rest of the world and if they take decisions like this, they will have to answer questions in another place at another time. There is something not right here. We should intervene on this issue and seek a full inquiry or, at least, an explanation. This is a matter for the Department of the Environment and Local Government and the area to which it relates needs to be opened up. I hope Senator Ulick Burke will seek a debate in the House where it can be discussed. I would be happy to support him in making such a request.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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On a normal Tuesday there are so many issues I would like to raise. The decision by the police authorities in London to reintroduce officers on the beat, having discovered, as everyone knew, that this works or the heroic display of democracy by the Parliament of Turkey last weekend in the face of the most extraordinary bribery are issues we should debate.
I wish to be associated with the remarks of Senator Brian Hayes and I wish the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister success at Stormont. I am sure the Taoiseach is lecturing the parties in Northern Ireland about dialogue, consultation, the need for openness and transparency and the need to keep all channels of communications open and not to take decisions in a way which alienates large sections of the population.
This brings me to the extraordinary situation in which we find ourselves. The Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003, as published by the Government, arrived at my home in Cork yesterday at around midday. If the Government had its way, that would have been the first I would have seen of it. It would have been an utterly unintelligible Bill because it consists of a series of amendments to an Act. I do not have the entire Acts of the Oireachtas in my personal library. Fortunately, however, the Internet – not the Government – came to my assistance.
I have been presented with a Bill which an increasing section of public opinion – the voluntary organisations, the media, the organisations which represent journalists, the Opposition parties – agrees is not merely a minor change. To quote something I said in the House on 5 February, it is a subversion of the freedom of information legislation. When I asked the Leader on 5 February whether the Government proposed to subvert the Freedom of Information Act she gave a rare and categorical "No", from which I can only conclude that she either has no influence or no shame. One way or another, this House was conned about the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003.
I formally support and second the Fine Gael amendment to the Order of Business. This Bill does not deserve consideration. Labour Party Members always want to be constructive and, as soon as time permits, we will introduce a Bill which will respond to the Government's apparent concern about the five-year limit by proposing that it be extended by another year. We will also propose a structure of proper consultation which will lead to a consensus. This is an issue that ought to be dealt with by consensus. If it is not dealt with in that way, the public is entitled to believe there is a hidden agenda.
I believe this is part of the secret deal for Government under which the Progressive Democrats will remain quiet and Fianna Fáil will get its wish and return to the way it likes to do business best, namely, to deal with issues in secret. As Senator O'Toole said, Fianna Fáil and the Civil Service will withdraw into their Stalinist cocoon of secrecy.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I was dealing with Stalinists when Members opposite did not know what they were.
(Interruptions).
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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While I like to give latitude to the leaders, I do not want—
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I was talking about the Order of Business.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that. However, it is not permitted to make long speeches on the Order of Business. I will give the Senator latitude, but I ask him to be brief.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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In terms of the way the House does its business, to produce a Bill of such gargantuan impact on a Friday morning and demand that we dispose of it by Tuesday night is an example of the Fianna Fáil of old, which I thought had been consigned to history. Some things emerge after a period: first, a leopard does not change its spots; and, second, a poodle is no match for a leopard.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I am sure the House will agree that Senator Ryan is sight to behold when he draws himself up to his full five feet of indignation.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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I apologise, is that five foot six inches or six feet?
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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It is totally wrong to suggest that the Bill, which will be considered today and which should be debated on Second Stage and not on the Order of Business, is a subversion. I reject that assertion. The Bill was published last week and was discussed a great deal in the press at the weekend. I am sure most people have a particular attitude to the Bill, but I do not believe there is anything a committee could achieve which this House cannot achieve in an open debate. The Leader has allocated a generous 30 minutes per speaker.
It is utterly wrong to suggest that a guillotine is being imposed. The Leader explicitly said that the debate would continue this evening for as long as people wanted to contribute. Furthermore, this is a Seanad Bill and there will be an interval between its passage through this House and its introduction in the Lower House. There will be adequate time for consultation during that period and between today's debate and the taking of Committee Stage here next week. There is nothing unusual in the way the Bill has been published or is being considered. The House will have adequate time to debate its merits and consider amendments to it.
I agree with Senator Brian Hayes in regard to something which is of far more importance, that is, the events taking place in Hillsborough today. I wish the Government and all the parties participating well in their endeavours and I hope there will be a successful outcome which will ensure the peace we have enjoyed in recent years will continue and be enhanced. It is wrong to suggest that the Taoiseach would lecture the parties in Northern Ireland. Even if he were so disposed to do so, I doubt if the parties in Northern Ireland would be prepared to listen to such a lecture.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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In regard to the Morris tribunal, another matter to which Senator Brian Hayes referred, it is perhaps somewhat excessive to say the that ruling is absurd. Nevertheless, I take the point that the House has an obligation to protect the privilege of its Members in regard to papers and to communications made to them in confidence. As the Cathaoirleach will be aware from his chairmanship of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, we have already affirmed that on not one but two occasions. I am confident that affirmation will be successful if, indeed, contested in the courts.
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader of the House request her successor, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, to come into the House and assure us that Eircom will guarantee equal access for all to affordable line provision? That Eircom has broken the conditions of its licence means that many in certain parts of the country will not have affordable access to line provision. Given that it currently holds the majority market share, there is no alternative in some cases but to seek line provision from Eircom. It is, therefore, of the utmost importance that the Minister clearly shows he has teeth with regard to making Eircom comply with the conditions under which it got its licence.
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader of the House confirm that the Taoiseach received the most leadership votes?
Ulick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Is this a Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting?
John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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The idea that Fianna Fáil needed a watchdog was mooted here today. However, the Taoiseach obtained 96 votes and the partnership approach of the Government is leading to the stability the country needs in these turbulent times.
(Interruptions).
David Norris (Independent)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes's amendment to the Order of Business. This is important legislation which needs to be treated with due care and consideration. The Government has not done this. The fact that it simply appointed five departmental Secretaries General to produce it and significantly failed to consult its own Information Commissioner weakens the approach to the Bill.
One must be very careful with animal analogies, particularly those referring to poodles. The effeminacy of poodles has been greatly exaggerated. They can be extremely vicious animals. I am quite sure—
David Norris (Independent)
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It is very much on the Order of Business. I wish to raise a couple of other matters, of which one is the question of the abuse of taxi plates. This surfaced in the Sunday newspapers and has been the subject of a good deal of comment—
David Norris (Independent)
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I am asking a question which is a little long-winded. It was indicated on the airwaves that an amendment to the legislation might be required. It is appropriate that this be done in this House because, whereas nothing criminal has been done and one cannot do other than admire his entrepreneurial ingenuity, it seems Mr. O'Leary puts his own transport requirements way above those of other citizens, which is not appropriate in a republic.
I agree with Senator Ryan that it would be useful for us to continue to monitor the situation regarding Iraq, in particular because it would provide us with an opportunity for a bit of a gloat at the action of the Turkish Parliament in which the members were described as standing up jubilantly, all except the Finance Minister, Mr. Ali Baba, who sat with his head in his hands as he watched the bribes disappearing down the tube.
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I support my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, in relation to the Freedom of Information Act. As has been stated, we got the amending Bill only yesterday. It is disgraceful that the Government is trying to ram it through tonight. Irrespective of what is being said on the other side of the House, the Government is trying to ram it through.
On another issue, I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Education and Science to come to the House to outline the Government's policy or lack of in relation to third level education fees. We have had so many leaks that the roof is almost falling in on this issue. I ask the Government to come clean on its policy in relation to these fees.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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We, on this side of the House, have always found the Leader very reasonable and co-operative in her approach to business and very responsive to requests from this side of the House. I ask her, therefore, to look again at what we are proposing. In particular, although it is at very short notice – we are getting used to short notice – I ask her to look at the Bill the Labour Party published only today in relation to freedom of information. The Labour Party, in its co-operative and reasonable way, will give an extra year to the Government to retain the Cabinet secrecy it desires so much. However, my party's Bill also allows for a reasonable period of consultation on this important matter.
I was not a Member when the original Bill came before the House. The legislation was introduced here first because the Minister of the day knew the Seanad would engage in an extensive debate on it. The Second Stage debate on the original Bill lasted for a number of weeks. The Leader should adopt the same spirit, if the Government allows it, and recognise that what is before us today is a travesty of freedom of information. It is freedom from information and tears apart the principle of openness, accountability and transparency.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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I ask the Leader to take a reasonable approach, as she always has, and to be independent on this. I call for a debate on this matter.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The point has been adequately made. I call Senator Coghlan.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support the reasonable request made by Senator Brian Hayes. The Government has always been well able to corral a committee or group when it wished to procrastinate. On this occasion, instead of three wise men, there are five Sir Humphreys.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Four. There was one Lady Humphrey.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I stand corrected. In any event, it is known how Sir Humphreys operate or, should I say, govern.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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This matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. I have two other items to deal with but I will conclude my remarks on this matter first. There has been no consultation. I agree with Senator O'Meara that the Leader has been reasonable to date on the Order of Business. However, there is an attempt to get this matter through without consideration. That is not good enough and the Leader should accept that.
There was an announcement some time ago regarding an audit of State assets. I asked the Leader when the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, might come before the House. She responded reasonably at that time and I ask again that this be done. We have not heard the result of this audit, when the assets will be advertised or when the first phase of the sell-off – to which today's newspapers refer – will begin. That is not good enough. It is not known whether the family silver or the kitchen sink is involved. Members are entitled to information on this matter and the Minister of State should be brought before the House.
It has come to my attention that different local authorities operate different criteria in regard to the allocation of public housing. Such a lack of uniformity is not good enough and the Leader should arrange for the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Noel Ahern, to come before the House to discuss this important matter. It is most unfair to applicants.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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On an point of order of some importance to me, Senator Brian Hayes was guilty of a serious breach of protocol when he referred to the Deputy Michael McDowell as Citizen McDowell. Such references, together with the concomitant bestial references from other Members, run the risk of seriously damaging my good name. I ask the Cathaoirleach to see to it that Senator Brian Hayes and others desist from such breaches of protocol.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is there a question on the Order of Business?
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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There is a more serious matter to which I wish to refer. Is the Government still committed to introducing the whistleblowers Bill? The Leader will recall that some three years ago the Taoiseach, in the Lower House, committed the Government – I assume his commitment follows through to this Administration – to supporting a Private Member's Bill in the name of my current party leader which would, among other things, give protection to civil servants who blow the whistle on wrongdoing in Government. If, as I assume is the case, the Government is still committed to that Bill, does the Leader agree that it is somewhat hypocritical for the Government to shut off one of the mechanisms by which such information comes to public notice, while claiming that it is still committed to introducing a Bill of that kind?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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In accordance with Standing Orders, the Order of Business must be completed within the next four minutes. Four Senators are offering. I ask them to be brief. I call Senator Bannon.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I propose a vote of sympathy on the death of the late—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There are procedures under Standing Orders for expressions of sympathy.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I support the proposed amendment to the Order of Business. I did not get the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill in the mail because of the deteriorating postal service.
James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Leader's proposal for the taking of Second Stage on the Bill is an insult to democracy and decent politicians. More time should be allowed for this debate.
John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I join my colleagues in expressing regret at the manner in which the Government is trying to ram the legislation on freedom of information through the House tonight. I agree with the amendment proposed by my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes.
Senator Cummins referred to the possible reintroduction of higher education fees. Over the weekend, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment have expressed different views on this issue. I urge the Leader to ask the Minister for Education and Science to attend the House to debate it. With examinations pending, this is an important time of the year for students, especially those who are filling CAO application forms.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I support the amendment proposed by my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes. Second Stage debate on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill is to be rammed through the House when Senators have not been appropriately informed about the legislation.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to raise with the Minister for Agriculture and Food the crisis in agriculture that has been exacerbated today by the charges to be imposed on farmers for rendering, which will result in a reduction of €40 per head. I also ask the Leader to request the attendance in the House of the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with responsibility for consumer affairs to explain the views of the Consumers' Association of Ireland that big stores are making huge profits as the price of agricultural produce falls. This has serious implications because, according to a European study, agricultural prices in Ireland have fallen by 9%, yet this benefit is not being passed to consumers. At the same time farmers are being ripped off and are not being paid for their products. It is a double rip-off on both farmers and consumers.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The matter can be raised during Private Members' business.
Noel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I know, Sir, you are very concerned about this issue. The Leader must act on it.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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I support my colleagues on this side of the House in their total opposition to the manner in which the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill has been handled. This is a dark day for democracy because the Bill is sinister, subversive and dangerous. The modus operandi in introducing the Bill three days after publication is wrong. It is an insult to the House.
If the Members on the other side of the House are serious about protecting their rights they should immediately take a stand with the Government. They should not act as puppets and poodles and they should resist any attempt to bulldoze the Bill through.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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This is not relevant to the Order of Business.
Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leader for her concession in proposing that spokespersons should have 30 minutes on Second Stage. Senators on all sides have much to contribute and the proposed 15 minute time allocation is inadequate, especially in the context of the way the debate is to be taken. I, therefore, propose amendment No. 2: that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the Order of Business be amended to allow for unrestricted time for debate on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003. There should be no guillotine and no attempt to restrict the right of Senators to express their views on this horrendous and repulsive legislation.
Michael McCarthy (Labour)
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I second the amendment. I support the reservations expressed on this side of the House at the manner in which the Government has attempted to control and envelop in secrecy the workings of what is an arch-conservative, right-wing Administration.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is great that the House and Visitors Gallery are so full. I welcome everybody.
The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, proposed an amendment to the Order of Business which I expect to be dealt with at the end of my response.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. The Leader, without interruption.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes said I was acting in an unseemly fashion. I may be many things but unseemly I am not.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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The Leader should ask the Members sitting behind her.
John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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She is a distinguished former Minister.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The debate on the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003 will not be guillotined. We will sit until midnight. The time slots can now be extended and Senators will be allowed to speak for 20 minutes or more. The proceedings might become a little unseemly as time progresses if everybody says the same thing but if Senators wish to be allowed 15 to 20 minutes, that will be acceptable. I will confirm this with the Cathaoirleach afterwards.
I agree with Senator Brian Hayes on the North. Before we degenerate into unseemly behaviour, the House should unite in wishing well the Taoiseach, Mr. Tony Blair and everybody involved in the talks in the North in the hope they will be fruitful, that there will be a commingling of ideas and, in particular, that they will lead to more certainty in a week or two.
Senator O'Toole agreed with Senator Brian Hayes and also called for a debate on public private partnerships, which I agree is necessary. When the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, comes to the House shortly, perhaps we will question him on this, either privately or publicly. There is some spancelling of people with regard to the pushing through of public private partnerships.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I was obviously wrong. "Subversion" understated it.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Dardis spoke about the North, a subject on which we all agree, and the Morris tribunal. I remind the House that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges for the Seanad took the initiative on the Morris tribunal issue. We were determined that we would take the lead in the matter and the Dáil followed us. While I hope it will follow us to whatever end is necessary, I also hope common sense will prevail.
Senator Ulick Burke referred to the need for equal access for all Eircom subscribers to affordable line provision. I will communicate with the Director of Telecommunications Regulation, Etain Doyle, because it would be wrong if there were breaches of licensing agreements.
Senator Hanafin said, quite rightly I hope, that we had no need for a watchdog and that we were well able to watch ourselves. I do not know who raised the watchdog issue. Perhaps it was Senator Brian Hayes.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Hanafin for raising the matter and telling us how many votes Deputy Bertie Ahern got in becoming Taoiseach.
Senator Norris supported Senator Brian Hayes and reminded us all that poodles were vicious when provoked which I hope is not the only occasion. I very much agreed with him in respect of taxi plates and the fact that the rich were purchasing them to speed up journey times to their destinations. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, is proposing an amendment to legislation that may reduce the person in question to a bicycle. I do not know—
Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is the way to sock it to him.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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As we do not name people in the House, I did not do so purposely. I congratulate the Senator for making the point con brio.
To Senator Cummins I say that I am not attempting to ram anything through.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Consideration of this Bill will go on until midnight and I look forward to hearing contributions from everyone.
Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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What about the staff? They do not know when they can go home because the Leader will not tell them.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am not proposing a guillotine. If Senators wish to sit past midnight, they may do so.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There is a long-standing precedent in the House that the Government side sets out the parameters of business. In fairness to the staff of the House, I ask the Leader to be serious. Does she suggest that we sit until 1 a.m., 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. to debate this matter fully?
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I consulted the Seanad record and discovered that, in the past, the House sat quite late into the night in order to consider important matters.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt, except to observe that Senator Ryan was funny.
We are not guillotining the Bill and everybody who wishes to speak will have an opportunity to do so. Senators cannot have it every way; they cannot say they do not have enough work to do and then leave the House at 7 p.m. stating that they do not wish to debate any further into the evening. Senators are welcome to remain in the House to debate this important legislation at length.
I remind Members that Committee Stage, on which they may debate matters in great detail, will not be taken until next week. Senators will have an entire week to reflect and decide upon the amendments they wish to table in respect of the Bill. Second Stage is very interesting from many points of view, but the meat will be in the detail of the amendments that will come forward. I will not permit people to tell lies to the effect that I am ramming this Bill through and guillotining the debate. Senators may play the March Hare from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and state otherwise, but I tell them that they are wrong.
Kathleen O'Meara (Labour)
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The Leader is not being reasonable now.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I remind Senators that there cannot be crossfire. There has already been much of it today and I ask Senators to refrain from this behaviour.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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For the information of Senator Coghlan, there were five Sir Humphreys and one Lady Henrietta.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The debate on State assets which the Senator requested has been agreed to in principle by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon. It is a matter of finding the time to come to the House. I thank Senator Coghlan for raising the matter, and that of public housing, again.
Senator Derek McDowell wishes to be referred to as "Senator McDowell" and does not want to be confused with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Michael McDowell.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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He who climbs poles, a man with whom the Senator does not wish to be associated.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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"Poodle" was the word that really upset me.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Whistleblowers Protection Bill is still on the agenda for publication by Government. A false analogy was drawn between whistleblowers and the other matter referred to.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Bannon said that the proposal regarding Second Stage of the Freedom of Information Bill was an insult to democracy.
Senator John Paul Phelan spoke about the higher education grants. Senator Coonan said that the crisis in agriculture was exacerbated today by the imposition on farmers of higher charges for rendering and he wishes the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, who represents consumers, to come before the House to debate the matter.
Senator Higgins proposed an amendment to the Order of Business to allow unrestricted debate on Second Stage of the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Bill 2003. Senator Brian Hayes also referred to that matter and I will allow extra time to be provided, if necessary, to allow people to speak. Senator McCarthy seconded the amendment.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We will deal with that matter tomorrow.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is about former Senator Patrick O'Reilly. We will deal with it before the Order of Business tomorrow.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Senator McDowell wants to raise a point of order.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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This is not intended to be frivolous, although the first sentence may make it seem so. The Cheltenham festival is to be held next week.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with the Order of Business.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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It is a genuine point of order. If you hear me out, you will see that it is a point of order.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It is not. I have two amendments before me.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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Why has Committee Stage of the Bill in question been scheduled for a week when we all know the Minister for Finance will be unavailable?
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is out of order and should resume his seat.
Derek McDowell (Labour)
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The Minister for Finance will not be here next week. It is a serious discourtesy to the House to schedule Committee Stage of the Bill for a week when we know the Minister will not be here.
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, you have suggested, a Chathaoirligh, that we proceed to the next business. There are two amendments and a substantive matter to be put to the House.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I did not suggest we proceed to the next business. I am trying to take the two amendments but cannot do so with Members not adhering to my rulings.
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The Leader made a comment about the time limit. It seems she accepted the second amendment to which she said she had no objection.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We will deal with that matter when we come to deal with the second amendment. The Senator should, please, resume his seat. Two amendments have been proposed to the Order of Business. I will take them in the order in which they were proposed. Senator Brian Hayes has proposed that No. 1 be deleted from the Order of Business. Is the amendment being pressed?
Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Amendment put: "That No. 1 be deleted from the Order of Business."
Tá
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We now come to amendment No. 2 in the name of Senator Higgins, namely, that a time limit shall not apply to contributions by Senators on Second Stage of No. 1. Is the amendment being pressed?
Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order, the Leader said something about the time limit. She said she was not opposed to—
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader proposed 30 minutes for spokespersons and 20 minutes for all other Senators.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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They are talking about filibustering.
Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senators are talking about that.
Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I remind Senators that this is a four minute vote. The bells will ring for two minutes and after a further two the doors will be locked.
Amendment put: "That a time limit shall not apply to contributions by Senators on Second Stage of No. 1."