Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business today is No. 1, a motion referred to the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government, on which it has completed its deliberations and which relates to specific acts against the environment that may be prosecuted as criminal offences, without debate; No. 2, Social Welfare Bill, 2002 – all Stages, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, all other Senators ten minutes and Members may share time and to conclude no later than 5 p.m.; No. 3, an earlier signature motion concerning the Social Welfare Bill, 2002; No. 4, Statute Law (Restatement) Bill, 2000 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil]– Report Stage, to be taken from 5 p.m. and to conclude no later than 6 p.m.; and No. 5, Immigration Bill, 2002 – Committee Stage, to commence on the conclusion of No. 4 and to last until 8.30 p.m.

After the Order of Business, I wish to meet with the leaders of Fine Gael and Labour, and the representative of the Independent Senators—

David Norris (Independent)
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Well done.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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—before he trips me up again, as no doubt he would like to. I wish to discuss the precise timing of debates. We will be able to have a sos at lunchtime, which would be highly desirable. In addition, I understand that the Social Welfare Bill may not last for the allotted time, although that situation may change. If we could have such a discussion after the Order of Business it would be helpful. I have liaised with the Minister of State, Deputy Hanafin, and the Minister who is taking the Immigration Bill, both of whom are committed to being present at their allocated times.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Yesterday, the Human Rights Commission published a far-reaching report concerning a proposal for the establishment of a Garda ombudsman in this jurisdiction. The Human Rights Commission was established under statute law and its reports are laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and are available in the Oireachtas Library. I am seeking a debate early in the new year on this significant report.

As the Cathaoirleach will be aware, an eminent former Member of this House, Dr. Maurice Manning, is now president of the Human Rights Commission. The commission has taken a view that is somewhat different to that of the Government concerning the need for an ombudsman for the Garda Síochána. The Government's view, as set out in An Agreed Programme for Government, is to establish an independent Garda inspectorate. The commission holds the view that the appointment of an ombudsman would be a more sensible step. This would be in line with the Police Ombudsman of Northern Ireland who has done terrific work since the establishment of her office following the Good Friday Agreement. I am, therefore, seeking an early debate on this important issue, which all Members have a direct interest in discussing before the Government makes its decision.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I echo that.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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However, I would like to hear the Minister outline the Government's view. We have heard it bandied about in the national press and the broadcast media, but the Minister should make a short statement of intent to the House today or tomorrow before the Seanad rises for the Christmas recess.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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He could do so after today's parliamentary party meeting.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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I wish to raise another point which is related to this significant and serious issue. I do not suggest the Government is acting unconstitutionally or otherwise, but it is acting outside the spirit of the law and the debate in the House.

During the course of the debate on the legislation, to which Senator Brian Hayes referred, in this House and the Lower House, there was a lengthy discussion regarding the importance of directly elected mayors. That issue was seen as an enticement to encouraging more people to participate in local politics and ensuring that the office assumed a status in society. It was an extremely important discussion and there was an understanding that we would move in the direction outlined. I accept, however, that the Government is entitled to make a decision not to do so. This is an issue in which I am disinterested and which is of no concern to me personally. Directly elected mayors in other countries hold enormous attractions for society, be it as figureheads or executives. I know politicians in other parties are not enthusiastic about this matter. There are two issues involved. The establishment of the title "mayor" has given a new distinction to that office. I request a full debate on the issue.

On the point raised by Senator Hayes, I support the idea of a dual mandate. People should be allowed to elect whom they wish, when they wish and for whatever reason. I have always held that view. I know it is a shameful position.

David Norris (Independent)
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It is democracy.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Being a regular double-jobber, far be it for me to talk down to people on that issue.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is enjoying a personal hiatus at present.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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It is important these matters are discussed in that way.

We must also deal with the matter of where we stand on the council of the west. I will not abandon that issue which is another of interest to people in rural areas to which only half a day's news is dedicated. We have buried the issue of the council of the west and blocked Waterford Airport. We are urbanising the country at will. It is not a matter of taking one side against the other, we are creating a split society. The House must push the idea of a regional approach, of which the west and other provincial areas will be a part, to development policy. I am not saying people have not done so before, but this issue should be as important as any other.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am delighted everybody is now of the view that we should appoint a Garda ombudsman, an idea first put forward by my party approximately two years ago.

David Norris (Independent)
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It was not Senator Ryan's party then, he was an Independent.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan, without interruption, please.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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Not for the first time Senator Norris's wit gets in the way of the facts. I was a member of the party at the time.

David Norris (Independent)
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I do not mind.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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My party produced the detailed proposals for it. If all the people who agreed with my party voted for it, I would probably be sitting in the Leader's seat.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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And where would I be?

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Leader would be sitting in my place.

We like to discuss many things that happen in the world. There is something particularly offensive about the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority being refused permission to attend mass in Bethlehem on Christmas Day. I suggest that the leaders of all the groups in the House sign a motion to be passed without debate tomorrow morning calling on the Israeli Government to reverse that decision. It is a simple request. Most people agree that the decision was wrong. I ask that the Leader consider the introduction of such a motion today, with a view to voting on it tomorrow. It does not matter if there is not full agreement on it.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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On a point of information, the amendments have been circulated on a white list.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I know, but I am entitled to a full list of amendments on a yellow sheet which the staff of the House work very hard to produce. That list has not been produced.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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It will be available later.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The gist of the amendments is contained in this morning's newspapers, but they are not available in proper form in the House. I suggest the Government, or the Minister involved, has decided that the media is a more important forum than the Oireachtas in terms of discussing these amendments. That is as close to contempt for the House as a Minister can display. It is not impossible to deal with these matters rationally. The Leader has been reasonable about the timescale for dealing with this legislation. We had some misunderstandings, but we have reached a reasonable position and I thank the Leader for her capacity to deal with the Government yet again.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is the festive spirit.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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The Government has let the House down. A protest should be sent, through the Cathaoirleach, in this regard. Government Departments have the resources to produce amendments on time. If they cannot do so, they should request that business be postponed. The idea of Government submitting amendments late, over-working staff in the House and leaving the Opposition in a position of considerable disadvantage is ridiculous.

John Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Ryan's proposal regarding the Palestinian leader. It is reasonable and is something which should be close to the hearts of the Irish people. Ireland underwent its religious emancipation in the 1800s. It is entirely reasonable that people should be free to worship, particularly at Christmas. I am a great supporter of Israel's right to survive, thrive and live in peace and harmony with its neighbours. The best way to do that is to treat its neighbours with respect.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Many Members of this House and the Lower House were lobbied extensively by traditional music lovers. All of us would have supported the concept in the Arts Bill that appropriate recognition be given to traditional music. I compliment Senator Ó Murchú for his crusade within the Comhaltas movement, which we would have supported.

David Norris (Independent)
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We would not.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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We are all aware of the tragedy of the family who lost a premature baby in Cavan Hospital recently. I hope Senators will note the statement in today's newspapers by Tom Clarke, professor of neo-natal paediatrics in the College of Surgeons, to the effect that he feels the Minister for Health and Children is being unfairly treated because the survival rate of such infants, even in maternity hospitals in the city, is very poor.

The Department of Health and Children generates many problems itself by failing to release information. My colleagues have not been able to obtain information regarding the death rate of full-term infants delivered at home in the past five years. I have been writing to the Department since April and have not received any satisfactory replies. Even a freedom of information request has been refused. I have been told to obtain the information from the Central Statistics Office. There is no openness or transparency on this serious issue. I am seeking a debate in the new session on maternity services in this country. I have received more satisfactory replies from the midwives delivering children than I have from the Department of Health and Children.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Henry in regard to the availability of information from the Department of Health and Children. In recent days health boards received letters from the Department of Health and Children regarding the preparation of their plans for 2003. The health strategy, Quality and Fairness, is in a shambles. Serious concerns are expressed by public representatives, particularly members of health boards, in regard to funding for 2003. Dictatorial letters were issued by the Department of Health and Children which read as follows, "The Minister for Health and Children has stated—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator cannot quote. Is he seeking a debate on the issue?

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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Cutbacks are to take place in all health boards and no provision has been made for additional services or the improvements of services in 2003. I am requesting that the Leader—

(Interruptions.)

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I ask that the Leader invite the Minister for Health and Children to this House to explain the future for the nine health boards. This issue must be addressed quickly because the health service is in a shambles.

David Norris (Independent)
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I would like to return to a question I raised yesterday on licensing laws, planning and so on. There should be a debate in the House on the matter which should include the question of planning. It is extremely disturbing to find out today that planning permission has been granted by An Bord Pleanála for some kind of visitor centre on top of the Cliffs of Moher. Apparently a hotel will be built at some stage. This type of thing was kicked out when it was tried north of the Border on the Giants Causeway. The way in which An Bord Pleanála currently operates is a cause for concern, therefore, there should be a full debate on planning matters.

I learned today that people will be restricted in certain areas of Galway, notably the Gaeltacht, in terms of being allowed to build houses. It seems that one must now be fluent in the Irish language. I am all in favour of the Irish language but that seems to be an extraordinary narrowing of views and damaging to the Irish language because it will create a reservation. Will inhabitants be provided with wigwams and totem poles?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Has the Senator a question for the Leader of the House?

David Norris (Independent)
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I support what the Minister is doing in regard to the dual mandate and I hope he manages to have the legislation passed. There is a practical reason for that measure which we in this House know perfectly well, that is, one cannot get meetings of committees because there is some kind of little council huddle in Ballydehob which people insist on going to, which is wrong.

(Interruptions.)

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

David Norris (Independent)
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I do not agree with Senator Finucane in regard to the Arts Bill. I was interested to receive a heavily orchestrated campaign on the issue, which I read with great interest. I then discovered that distinguished traditional musicians such as Paul Brady and the Chieftains took a completely different view. I am pleased the Minister had the courage to listen to these submissions because he was perfectly correct to do so.

Why are we not having Private Members' time today? It is usual to have Private Members' time and, unless I missed it, there was no mention of it in the Leader's remarks.

Ann Ormonde (Fianna Fail)
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I support the request for a debate on An Bord Pleanála. I ask for this on its own and not as part of any other legislation. We need to debate the whole composition of An Bord Pleanála to see how accountable and transparent it is. I ask the Leader to request the Minister at some time in the new year to come into the House for a debate on the issue, purely to refresh our minds as to An Bord Pleanála's role in relation to county councils and local authorities. Questions need to be asked at this stage.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I ask the Leader to draw to the attention of the Minister for Agriculture and Food the suggestion from Europe yesterday that in any future case of foot and mouth disease vaccinations should be introduced. I am a great believer, as many of us are, of subsidiarity which means decisions are reached much closer to where citizens live. More and more decisions are being made at European level and taken away from individual nations. The case made about vaccination is understandable compared to the burning of carcasses in Britain last year, but dangers are posed to the agricultural industry, the tourism industry and so on as a result of decisions being made in Europe rather than in this country. I urge the Department of Agriculture and Food to debate this issue in the immediate future so that Europe does not foist something on us which is not in our interest.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I support Senator Henry's call for a debate on maternity services. I have a brother-in-law who has given parliamentary evidence in another jurisdiction on the question of home births. The issue of whether all births need to take place in large high-tech maternity hospitals is something which is worthy of discussion.

I would like to comment on what Senator Norris said. If we believe in pluralism, multiculturalism and so on, those of us who belong to the dominant language tradition in practice in this country – maybe that is most of us if it is English-speaking – should have a bit of respect and not trample over places.

David Norris (Independent)
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I did not—

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator may totally disagree with the idea of Gaeltachts but I do not think—

David Norris (Independent)
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I did not say that.

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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People are entitled—

(Interruptions.)

Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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That is what makes this country part of what it is.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to avail of this opportunity to thank Senator Finucane for his kind comments this morning. I have no doubt, given the part of Ireland from which he comes, that he appreciates the importance of the traditional arts at local community level, for which I thank him. I thank the Fine Gael Party generally, particularly Deputy Deenihan, for the guidance and leadership he has given in this regard, including Members of the other political parties, all of whom have united on this issue, which is good for the arts.

The Minister put his finger on it this morning, and what he said on radio is an indictment of the Arts Council. Two main issues were aired. He said there is no coherent policy in the Arts Council for traditional arts after 50 years and adequate funding has not been provided. When reference is made to this – it is a pity Senator Norris has left – we should remember that PricewaterhouseCoopers presented the Minister with a comprehensive document. Its findings were quite clear. First, there must be a radical change where the traditional arts are concerned, second, substantial funding must be provided in the future and, third, an appropriate structure must be put in place. PricewaterhouseCoopers gave two options – a separate council or the Arts Council appropriately restructured. The rank and file of people throughout this country want to see this happening.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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There will be a debate on the Arts Bill. I have been more than generous.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for your indulgence but I am supporting the call for the debate on this basis. I have nothing against the Chieftains or Paul Brady and I am pleased they have made millions.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot go into details.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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People at community level must be considered. Some 2 million people attend traditional events every year. This year the Fleadh Ceoil in Listowel attracted 250,000 people, which is the bottom line. If Senator Norris had waited, he would have heard the reply from this side of the House.

Geraldine Feeney (Fianna Fail)
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I support the requests by Senators Henry and Mansergh for a debate on domiciliary deliveries. Home births are becoming increasingly popular and tightened regulatory measures are, therefore, needed. It is unclear to whom domiciliary midwives are answerable and I support the call for a debate on the topic.

Margaret Cox (Fianna Fail)
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Senators have requested a discussion on the Irish language related aspects of the County Galway development plan. When discussing the Irish language, we should remember that it is important to include people rather than to exclude them. Various people in this House may have an opportunity to debate the matter, but I hope they also make submissions in relation to it. We cannot forbid people in one part of a county from living in another area. If we have the opportunity to discuss this subject, it is important that we separate emotions from the central issues of equality and access for those in Galway city who may wish to live in the Gaeltacht areas. We cannot allow divisions to continue.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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The Senator can vote against it.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Brian Hayes raised the matter of human rights and referred to former Senator Maurice Manning, who is now chairman of the Human Rights Commission. He also called for the commission's report to be debated in the House. I will be happy to put such a discussion on the agenda in the new year. The Seanad will resume after its Christmas recess on Wednesday, 29 January 2003, the same date as the Dáil.

Senator Hayes also asked for an invitation to be extended to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government to come to the House to discuss the dual mandate. Senator Norris also raised this subject, but I cannot say if he is in favour of it or not as I cannot understand my shorthand. Senator Hayes pointed out that he has no particular interest in the matter, which makes it easier for him to put forward his ideas.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I have an interest in the matter, but I have no particular view on the final decision.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to invite the Senator to my party's meeting today, but I suppose I should not do so.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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There might be a war at the meeting.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I might hear more about it from the outside.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator could attend as a fraternal delegate.

Senator O'Toole mentioned the proposed changes to legislation dealing with directly elected mayors, a provision about which I am enthusiastic. People have their own views on such matters and it appears that the idea is to be forgotten. Senator O'Toole is in favour of the direct election of mayors, but others have alternative ideas. I believe the matter will be discussed later today.

Brendan Ryan (Labour)
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I am just ambitious.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan, with the support of Senator Hanafin, argued strongly that the House should issue a unanimous statement to the effect that the Israeli authorities' refusal to allow the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Mr. Arafat, to go to Bethlehem should be overturned. I agree with the Senator and I am sure other Senators feel that a motion, signed by representatives of the various groups in the House, should be passed without debate. It is a poignant matter to consider at Christmas, as the town of Bethlehem has a particular resonance for most people.

Senator Ryan also asked about the list of amendments. I agree that it is unfortunate that the definitive list is not yet available. It is not the fault, however, of the Cathaoirleach or the hard-working staff of the Seanad. I do not know why the amendments were received late by the Seanad officials. The Senator is right to state that it would be preferable if the amendments had been made available within the stated and proper time. It should not have happened and I apologise to the House for it.

Senator Finucane spoke about the importance of traditional music in the context of the Arts Bill, 2002, and called for the Bill to be brought to the House. I understand that the Bill has reached Committee Stage in the other House. Has it been discussed in the Dáil?

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It should be in the Seanad soon. Senator Norris also spoke about the Arts Bill and mentioned the role of The Chieftains in the Irish music scene. Senator Ó Murchú, like others, has a strong opinion on the traditional arts and he mentioned that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, said during a radio interview this morning that there has been no coherent policy or funding for traditional arts. Different people have different points of view on this issue. The Minister is trying not to ghettoise but to ensure that the traditional arts have a clear and funded plan.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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The problem lies with the management and not the money.

Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There will be problems next year.

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am quite sure there will be a debate on the matter.

James Bannon (Fine Gael)
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How can we advance the health strategy?

Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris mentioned the planning laws and the development that has been allowed by An Bord Pleanála on the Cliffs of Moher. Senators Norris and Cox raised the issue of housing in Gaeltacht areas. Senator Ormonde asked for a general debate on An Bord Pleanála outside the context of any particular Bill. She has made similar strong requests in the past. I will endeavour to get the Minister, Deputy Cullen, to come to the House in the new year to discuss these matters.

I agree that the County Galway development plan, to which Senator Cox referred, is a national issue. Are we to treat people as if they are in an encampment or a reservation by telling them that they can live in one place and not in another? My personal opinion, in case people in Galway start to write to me, is that it would be wrong to do so. Senator Cox was right to say that we should have a debate on the matter.

Senator Quinn said that we should not adhere slavishly to European laws, particularly the law on animal vaccination. He argued that we should decide our policy on such issues for ourselves. He said that the much-vaunted principle of subsidiarity, which is sometimes not followed, should be used in this instance.

Order of Business agreed to.