Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann: — having regard to the conclusions and recommendations of the Report of the Scoping Inquiry into Historical Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools run by Religious Orders, published on 3rd September, 2024;

— noting that it is the opinion of the Government that these matters of significant public concern require, in the public interest, examination by the establishment of a Commission of Investigation;

— noting that the Minister for Education and Youth has led the Government's consideration of these sensitive matters;

— noting the factual information compiled and the specific matters identified for further consideration in the Report of the Inter-Departmental Group on the Recommendations of the Scoping Inquiry into Historical Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools run by Religious Orders, which has assisted in informing Government considerations on the scope, format, and terms of reference for a Commission of Investigation; and

— further noting that a draft Order proposed to be made by the Government under the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 (No. 23 of 2004) has been duly laid before Dáil Éireann on 9th July, 2025 in respect of the foregoing matters referred to, together with a statement of reasons for establishing a Commission under that Act; approves the draft Commission of Investigation (Handling of Historical Child Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools) Order 2025 and the statement of reasons for establishing a Commission of Investigation.

I welcome the opportunity to bring this motion to the House. I wish to begin by acknowledging the survivors whose courage and commitment have brought us to this point today. I sincerely thank every single survivor for his or her bravery, whether they were in a position to come forward or not. I particularly thank the late Mark Ryan and his brother, David, whom I welcome to the Gallery today.

I acknowledge the many survivors of historical sexual abuse in schools who told their stories in the years before Mark and David came forward and the hundreds who have come forward since the RTÉ radio documentary, “Blackrock Boys”, was aired in November 2022. I acknowledge Liam and Seán, who are also in the Gallery with David. The Ryan brothers and the many others who came forward to disclose their experiences of historical child sexual abuse in schools have had a central role in the developments that have brought us here today.

Of course, this is not the first time the State has had to confront an appalling legacy of child abuse and a need to inquire into past failings. The Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse published its final report in May 2009, revealing the extent of abuse suffered by thousands of children in residential institutions managed by religious congregations. Those shocking revelations of historical abuse in institutional settings forced us to confront a dark chapter of our past. Now, we are faced with revelations of widespread and often brazen historical sexual abuse of children in day and boarding schools. We must once again confront a painful and shameful history as we seek to lance this national wound.

As a result of the revelations that followed the Ryan brothers’ courageous disclosure of their own experiences of sexual abuse in schools, the Government established a scoping inquiry into historical sexual abuse in day and boarding schools run by religious orders. The scoping inquiry was independently led. I acknowledge the work of Mary O’Toole, who carried out the scoping inquiry, and my predecessor, the Minister, Deputy Norma Foley, for all her work in this area.

A trauma-informed survivor engagement process was central to the scoping inquiry. This consulted widely with survivors on what they considered should be included in a Government response to historical sexual abuse in schools run by religious orders. I commend the scoping inquiry team for undertaking this sensitive work with great care and compassion.

So many survivors of historical child sexual abuse did not have a voice. Some could not say what had happened and others were not heard or believed. The scoping inquiry’s survivor engagement process was a distinctive approach, providing each individual participant with the opportunity to tell the scoping inquiry about his or her experience and what he or she wanted to see happen next in a safe environment. As many will recall, the scoping inquiry was told of 2,395 allegations of historical sexual abuse in schools run by religious orders, involving 884 alleged abusers in 308 schools across the country between 1927 and 2013. Devastatingly, a considerable number of those allegations related to special schools.

The scoping inquiry made 14 recommendations informed by the views of survivors, including the establishment of a commission of investigation. It recommended that the commission should examine the handling of allegations and concerns of child sexual abuse in schools and that its remit should be broadened to include all schools. It recommended that the commission should include a survivor engagement programme and that it should take a survivor-centred and trauma-informed approach.

The report of the scoping inquiry was published on 3 September 2024. A high-level interdepartmental group was immediately established to advise the Government on the recommendations of the scoping inquiry and to prepare draft terms of reference for the commission of investigation. The Government immediately accepted the primary recommendations of the scoping inquiry to establish the commission of investigation. It has accepted 13 of the 14 recommendations of the scoping inquiry to date. Several of those recommendations relate to the remit and operation of the commission of investigation.

The Government has agreed to appoint Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath, an eminent judge of the Court of Appeal, as chair of the commission. Mr. Justice MacGrath brings considerable experience to this role. He was called to the Bar in 1984 and to the Inner Bar in 2000. He was appointed a judge of the High Court in January 2018, where he presided over civil cases. On the criminal side, he presided over trials in the Special Criminal Court and the Central Criminal Court between 2020 and 2024. He was appointed to the Court of Appeal in June 2024. I thank him for agreeing to carry out this important work. He will be assisted in this work by a number of commissioners and a support team.

The findings of the scoping inquiry were nothing short of devastating. These children and young people were sent to school, as thousands of children are every day, to get a better chance in life, improve their outcomes, make friends, socialise and learn.

What some were met with within these school gates was beyond comprehension.

The scoping inquiry's report sets out not just the devastating accounts of the sexual abuse that participants experienced as children, but the impact on their education, the loss of opportunity in school and the often life-long impact on relationships, employment and their sense of self. As it was said to me, children's childhood was taken away from them. Participants' accounts of there being no place or sense of safety in their schools represents an egregious breach of trust from those responsible for running those schools. Some participants spoke of loss of community, faith, family and even country, as the aftermath of what they experienced trickled through every facet of their lives. Others spoke of the difficulty in telling anyone what had happened, and indeed a deep sense of shame and guilt. That shame and guilt does not belong to survivors. It belongs to those responsible for child sexual abuse in schools. What is clear from the scoping inquiry is that survivors want accountability. They deserve accountability.

The establishment of this commission of investigation is the next step towards delivering that accountability. The Government takes the appalling crime of child sexual abuse in schools with the utmost seriousness, and it is clear that the potential scale of this issue is quite significant. The establishment of the commission represents Government's commitment to a serious response, in which we seek to understand the past to inform the present, the here and now, and the future.

The terms of reference of the commission have been prepared by the interdepartmental group and they closely reflect the recommendations of the scoping inquiry. Crucially, at every step, the work of the interdepartmental group was centrally informed by the views of survivors, expressed so powerfully in the scoping inquiry's extensive survivor engagement consultation process. Since the report was published, many others have come forward for the first time, whether to support agencies or to report what happened to them to An Garda Síochána. Through their harrowing accounts of their own experiences, the scoping inquiry participants have paved a path for so many others who may now choose to tell their stories to the commission.

This commission will have a remit to examine the handling of sexual abuse in all types of schools. This was a wish expressed by many survivors, and one which I think we can all strongly support. It will investigate concerns of child sexual abuse and failures to treat such concerns in a manner that protected children. It will examine the causes and responsibilities for those failures, and it will have the power to compel witnesses and documents, which was a key concern for survivors who participated in the scoping inquiry. Schools, persons and entities responsible for and associated with schools, An Garda Síochána, the HSE and its predecessor and successor organisations, and the Department of education, will all fall within the ambit of the commission's terms of reference. While I expect voluntary co-operation from any group or entity that the commission wishes to engage with, and I note that the scoping inquiry reported that it had received positive engagement, I emphasise that such co-operation is required and enforceable.

Survivors want to know why child sexual abuse was so prevalent in some schools and contexts, why it happened and why it went on for so long. As a society, we need to understand the impact of child sexual abuse in schools, and crucially we need to learn for the future. I know that a common wish for many survivors is that they want to be sure that what they endured can never happen again. The commission will investigate matters of critical importance to survivors, as they so eloquently described to the scoping inquiry. These include actions taken or not taken where concerns of child sexual abuse arose; failure to prevent harm to children where concerns of child sexual abuse arose; failure to report crimes and concerns to the appropriate authorities; concealment of child sexual abuse; whether laws and guidelines were followed; whether persons suspected of child sexual abuse were permitted to have access to children, or indeed moved to other locations or institutions where they again had access to children; whether there were co-ordinated actions with regard to child sexual abuse; and the approach taken toward criminal prosecutions and civil litigation.

Another core priority for survivors is the need to see this process conducted as efficiently as possible and in a timely manner. That is why the terms of reference require that the commission complete its work within five years. Within the first two years, the chair is required to confirm his belief that this is achievable, or to propose any modifications that may be required to facilitate completion within five years. Survivors have been clear that they want to see outcomes in their lifetimes and I am absolutely committed to making sure that this happens, as I know the chair and all those involved in the commission are. To that end, the scoping inquiry's recommendation that the commission adopt a sampling approach is provided for in the terms of reference. The commission will conduct an initial national survey as it seeks to establish the potential volume of witnesses and evidence that may be available to support its investigations. It will then select samples for detailed investigation, informed by what survivors relate to it in the national survey.

The commission may consider child sexual abuse in schools between 1927 and 2013 in its report. The terms of reference recognise that when such matters took place longer ago, there are realistic limitations on the commission's ability to conduct a meaningful investigation into those particular matters, and there may be fewer survivors or witnesses who can inform the commission as to what happened. To that end, the commission has the power to reduce the time period under investigation as it considers appropriate, and this will allow it to concentrate on periods of time that may provide answers for more of the survivors who come forward in that national survey. This is for the commission to decide and it will be based on those who come forward in the early days. The commission also has discretion in its work with regard to whether any part of its investigation is subject to ongoing legal proceedings.

It is important to say that the commission will also have a survivor engagement programme which runs in parallel with its formal investigations. All survivors who wish to provide an account of their experiences to the commission will have the opportunity to do so through this programme. I emphasise that the survivor engagement programme will be non-adversarial, and survivors will be able to provide their account in private, in a supportive environment without cross-examination. The survivor engagement programme can also hear from a relative of a deceased survivor and it is completely anonymous. This reflects the views of survivors expressed in the scoping inquiry report that any process would need to accommodate survivors who cannot, or who do not wish for whatever reason, to speak publicly about what happened to them.

The survivor engagement programme will not only help the commission in its work, but I believe it will contribute to our national understanding of what happened in our schools and allow us to learn lessons for the future. The work of the commission will, at all times, be survivor-centred and trauma-informed. It will identify broad themes and concerns arising from survivors' accounts and will report to the chair on all of these. The survivor engagement programme is one element of an overall survivor-centred and trauma-informed approach for the commission. This will include consultation and clear communication with survivors, training for the commission's team in working with those who have experienced childhood sexual abuse, and implementing practical steps to minimise risks of retraumatisation. While implementing these measures will be a matter for the commission itself, I know that this in particular is of great importance to Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath.

The commission is independent and will begin its work in the coming months. An initial period of consultation with survivors and other stakeholders will be an important part of that work, in advance of a national survey as set out in the terms of reference. When the commission has the necessary arrangements in place to begin its engagement with survivors, that will be widely advertised to ensure that as many people as possible know that they can contribute, they can come forward and they can engage with the commission.

The scoping inquiry made a number of other recommendations, and 13 of its 14 recommendations have now been accepted by Government. The area of redress, as I am so aware, is important for survivors, to ensure that the institutions and religious orders responsible for the schools where child sexual abuse occurred are held accountable, including financially. The report of the interdepartmental group advises that more work must be undertaken on any potential scheme. Any scheme must be funded by those who ran the schools where this abuse occurred. Let me be very clear: all potential mechanisms that can be brought to bear to secure the funding from those responsible for sexual abuse in schools must be considered and it will be. This work will include looking at potential changes to the statute of limitations for civil claims, changes to the status of unincorporated associations and examining the assets of the relevant religious orders and other bodies with responsibility for running schools.

I fully recognise how important redress is for survivors as a measure of accountability for what they experienced as children and the lifelong impact it has had for so many. This is why more work and more analysis is required regarding financial redress. I emphasise that this work will happen in parallel to the work of the commission and that it is vital that the work of the commission proceeds without undue delay. That is why Government has approved the establishment of the commission now, as the other work continues. It will not be delayed.

The Government has also accepted further recommendations of the scoping inquiry. These relate to the experiences of victims and survivors of sexual violence in the criminal justice system. As colleagues will be aware, the zero-tolerance strategy is a whole-of-government strategy, with a clear focus on how we can improve the criminal justice system and support and encourage survivors to come forward.

We also had engagement on the memorialisation. What is clear from the scoping inquiry is that there was no one agreed view as to what memorialisation should look like. Engaging with survivors on how we bring that forward and on how we ensure there is a memorialisation at the end of this will be a focus of the commission. Supports for survivors throughout the commission’s work is key, and I give that commitment to those who come forward that there will be supports throughout this process. We will make sure it is trauma-informed and survivor-centred at all times.

Finally, as to recommendations regarding further strengthening of child protection in schools, it is important to note that the scoping inquiry found that the current child protection systems in our schools are effective. My Department takes child protection very seriously and considers that the protection and welfare of children is a fundamental responsibility of all involved in the care and education of children. In 2021, the Department engaged an independent reviewer to carry out a high-level independent review of the Department of education's current child protection policies and processes. The review examined the policies and procedures the Department has in place for the protection and safeguarding of children and young people. The aim of the review was to identify any existing or potential gaps, risks or areas for improvement, and to make recommendations for improvements both short and long. The procedures were updated in August 2023 and the Department has continued to implement the recommendations contained in the review, which included the publication of the updated child protection procedures for schools which was published in May of this year.

The obligations and responsibilities which arise from the procedures have been taken very seriously by schools since their introduction. However, more can always be done and my Department is establishing a child protection in schools group, as recommended by the report of the scoping inquiry, to further strengthen those robust systems. This group will deal with overarching child protection policy and will provide updates as required to the commission of investigation in the course of its work, in relation to child protection in schools.

I acknowledge that there is a strong culture of child protection in schools and the vital role played by our school communities in that regard. Many of the survivors who came forward to the scoping inquiry explained they felt compelled to do so because of their need to ensure that what they endured would not happen to another child. Their greatest priority was often to ensure that lessons would be learned to ensure the ongoing safety of children in schools going forward. I commend, acknowledge and thank survivors for that.

Today is an important day - I know it is a challenging and difficult day for many - for all those who experienced the devastation of child sexual abuse in our schools. Again, I recognise Mark and David Ryan, and the service they have done. Mark left an immeasurable legacy, and I know from having met with David, that he is utterly determined to continue what they started together. I want to say to him here today and to the countless other survivors, I am truly sorry for what was done to you and for the devastating impact it had on your lives. I thank each and every person impacted for their bravery. I commend this motion to the House.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the House for the opportunity to speak on this hugely important and challenging motion. I join the Minister, Deputy McEntee, in recognising that the enormous contribution of the survivors whose tireless work and participation has brought us to this point today. I add my personal note of welcome to David Ryan who is in the Gallery, and who spoke so compellingly about his experiences not just in the RTÉ radio documentary, "Blackrock Boys", but in interviews with the media since. The path foraged by David and his late brother Mark has enabled many others to come forward and, often for the first time, to speak about their own experiences. We owe them and many other survivors a huge debt of gratitude for what they have brought to the fore.

The contents of the scoping inquiry report last year stopped many of us in our tracks. I thank Mary O'Toole and her team for their compassionate and dedicated work on this. The historic sexual abuse that happened on such a scale in our schools, and for so long, was absolutely shocking. Perhaps equally shocking were the accounts given by the participants whose childhoods were stolen, whose education was interrupted or, indeed, ended abruptly and who experienced family break-ups, lifelong impacts of addiction, mental health difficulties, problems in relationships and loss of opportunities. Where childhood was stolen, adulthood was stolen as well because it had a huge impact on many people.

As Minister of State with special responsibility for special education and inclusion, I am particularly disturbed by the findings of the scoping inquiry in respect of children attending special schools. The scoping inquiry noted that the Central Statistics Office stated that children with disabilities experienced sexual abuse at a much higher rate than children without disabilities. To think that such a breach of trust could happen in our schools is simply devastating. We owe it to the children with additional needs to read that out again. Children with disabilities experienced sexual abuse at a much higher rate than children without a disability. That is hugely shocking. When we think about the impact it had on children and their families - families who entrusted the care of their children to these communities and this is what was actually happening - it is truly and deeply shocking.

The scoping inquiry's findings reflect this and outline a particular number of allegations regarding special schools. It found that with regard to religious orders' records show some 528 recorded allegations of historical child sexual abuse throughout 17 special schools against 190 alleged abusers. It also stated that this is unlikely to be the full extent of the historical child sexual abuse in special schools. As Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion, I find that hugely troubling and shocking.

Special schools were among those named by participants in the scoping inquiry’s trauma-informed, survivor engagement process. That the additional vulnerability of children in special schools could be so exploited is truly appalling and there has to be accountability.

The importance of inclusivity in the commission of investigation cannot be overstated. I welcome the remit laid down in the terms of reference for the scoping inquiry to include all schools for which it will select a sample for detailed investigations. It is important that all survivors and their support networks know from the outset that the commission has a survivor-engagement process whereby any survivor or relative of a person who is deceased or incapacitated can give an account of their experience of child sexual abuse in a supportive and, as the Minister, Deputy McEntee said, a non-adversarial setting. We have to ensure it is a non-adversarial setting and that survivors are supported. In particular, I welcome the provision in the commission’s terms of reference that it will strive to be as survivor-centred as possible and that specific steps are laid down on how it approaches its work.

I strongly support the requirement for support for survivors at a key stage in the process, especially the provision for support for those with additional needs, to facilitate an accessible and inclusive process wherever possible. There are voices that may never have been heard before but I am very glad to see the commitment to ensure they are heard now. I welcome further provision for a survivor-centred approach, including clear communications and transparency, which will assist survivors and those supporting them to make informed choices about their engagement with the commission. Support for survivors at this stage of the process includes emotional and psychological support. A trauma-informed approach to working with those who have experienced child sexual abuse will include practical steps to ensure the process does not revisit the trauma and create more difficulties for people.

We must ensure this is done in consultation with survivors and with the relevant expert advice. The value of the survivor engagement programme's non-adversarial approach is crucially important. I know Mr. Justice MacGrath will be engaging in preliminary consultations with survivors, and I expect advice in the coming months. The commission represents an invaluable opportunity to understand what happened in schools, including special schools, where this was able to continue for so long, and the lifelong effects of childhood sexual abuse in our schools. I welcome, in particular, the focus on the future learning of the commission.

It is important to recognise that the scoping inquiry found current child protection schemes and frameworks in recognised schools to be effective. Nonetheless, there is always scope to learn from what has happened in the past and to work collectively, not just in this House but across society, to ensure the safety of our children now and into the future to enable them to achieve their full potential. In that regard, the requirement for the commission to report within five years and to advise the Minister of any changes needed to achieve that objective is extremely welcome. The terms of reference set out that the commission should also take into account what has already been established in previous investigations, including the scoping inquiry. It may also consider the outcomes of other investigations, including those relating to special schools and the extent of any criminal convictions of specific individuals related to special schools. This will assist the commission in meeting its terms of reference in the allocated timeframe.

I encourage all survivors, who have borne an extremely heavy burden, to come forward, regardless of where they are today. It is important that this process is as encouraging as possible to ensure that people come forward. I also acknowledge the impact on their families, including the families of those with additional needs who trusted those running the schools to care for and protect the particularly vulnerable children. I acknowledge those who have supported survivors of childhood sexual abuse in schools who are often an important part of the process of a victim coming forward, including the scoping inquiry and the commission of investigation. I thank them for their tireless efforts.

As the commission gets under way, the accountability the victims all so richly deserve will come one step closer. Like all Members of this House, we have met survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Despite the challenges they have faced in life, they have confided in us as public representatives or they have faith in the system to go forward and tell their stories. For some of them, it may be the first port of call. Speaking from experience as a public representative, we have to ensure that we believe in this process and that it is as open and as transparent as possible. All the hiding has been done. Families and survivors have had to endure challenges and difficulties. I am reminded of a gentleman who spoke to me a number of years ago about his challenges arising from childhood sexual abuse and the challenges faced by a number of survivors. He told me that we were at our least Christian when we were at our most religious. I think of that man today as we discuss this motion in Dáil Éireann.

As Members of this House, we owe it to David and everybody else who has been affected by childhood sexual abuse. We owe it to their families and the communities to strive to make sure that what has happened in the past will never again be inflicted on any child, whether the child has additional needs or otherwise. It is important that we have full faith in the process and that we ensure that we have an open and transparent process. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, has worked extremely hard on this as well. She is as committed as I am to ensuring that we have the best process in place and that we bring to the fore the best help we can get, whether it is redress or in the commission, for those people who have carried such a burden throughout their lives.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Today, we discuss a painful chapter in the State's history, namely, the systemic failure to protect children from sexual abuse within day and boarding schools. Sinn Féin welcomes the establishment of the commission of investigation. We also welcome the fact that the terms of reference include all survivors, regardless of whether they attended a religious or non-religious school or institution. The establishment of a commission has been called for by survivors for decades. In truth, it should not have taken this long for the Government to act. For decades, survivors carried the weight of their trauma in silence. If they chose to speak out, they were met by a wall of institutional indifference and State inaction.

Survivors should not have had to fight this hard for so long to be heard. We owe particular recognition to David and Mark Ryan, whose courage in the RTÉ documentary, "Blackrock Boys", helped push this issue into the light. Our thoughts are with Mark's family and friends today. We welcome Liam, Seán and David to the Visitors Gallery. It is largely due to the courage and perseverance of survivors, not Government interest or initiative, that has brought us here. In fact, as is so often the case, the State's role was to deny, delay and frustrate. Every year of delay has meant survivors grow older, evidence is potentially lost and accountability deferred. Any further delay will disadvantage survivors and risks allowing those responsible to avoid accountability.

We welcome the commitment to an interim report after two years and the alignment of the terms with recommendations stemming from survivors' voices during the scoping inquiry. However, we are disappointed by the exclusion of physical abuse from the commission's remit. The Minister might provide a clear explanation for this omission. The success of this commission hinges on the core principle of being survivor-centred and trauma-informed.

The failures of the past are tragically exemplified in the Grace report, with survivors describing that process as "re-traumatising" and "adversarial". This cannot happen again. On this, a number of issues have been raised by Inclusion Ireland and others. I ask the Minister to take note. The survey referenced in Part 3, No. 8(a) should include "other mechanisms which will give due recognition to the particular communication needs of individual survivors". Surveying on its own "will not suit people who are non speaking or who have literacy issues". Part 4, No. 11(a) should "include accessible information and communication including but not limited to audio, visual, plain English, easy to read versions of all relevant documents and materials, the inclusion of intermediaries and independent advocates to support the person's participation". Part 4, No. 11(a) "Must include legal representation as a form of support for survivors". Part 4, No. 12(a) should "stipulate how it will be ascertained a person is 'incapacitated'". The Minister should "ensure this part of the terms of reference is compatible with provisions of Assisted Decision making Act and presumption of capacity". On reporting, in Part 5, the terms of reference should "Stipulate commission reports must be published in accessible formats". These are important points. I ask the Minister and Minister of State to take note and to act on them.

The voice of all survivors must be at the heart of this process. The commission's proposed sampling method, drawing on models used successfully in independent inquiries into child sexual abuse in England, Wales, Canada and Australia, appears sensible. However, transparency is non-negotiable. The commission must clearly communicate how cases are selected, ensuring the process is open, fair and accountable. Fundamentally, this is about accountability. On this, redress must be clearly outlined and transparent. If legislation is required to ensure religious orders are held to account, I urge the Minister to bring it forward without delay.

A redress scheme for survivors should be established without delay. There have been reports in the media in recent days of pushback to the Minister on this from within her Department.

She must resist that pushback. She must think of the survivors. They have waited long enough. The Minister has an opportunity to finally address this terrible hurt, this dark stain on Irish history. Sinn Féin stands ready to work with her constructively and with survivors and all parties to ensure this commission delivers truth, secures accountability and places survivors - their needs, their voices and their right to justice - at the very heart of everything it does. Let this be the moment we finally get it right.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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This is a positive step and a step in the right direction after many years of waiting. Like most public representatives, over the years I too have met and spoken with people from my constituency and other places who have been the victim of sexual abuse in schools. Sometimes it was an institution and sometimes it was not. The one thing that certainly strikes me is that the two were not separate. Sexual abuse and violent physical abuse were always together and that is something that needs to be taken into account here. The primary thing I see at the core of all this was power. It was about the person, the abuser, being in control and in power, and instilling fear not just into the person they were abusing but into everybody in the environment, so that it would remain a secret. That is something that needs to be acknowledged. That the investigation does not look at physical abuse is something that needs to be urgently re-examined.

It was interesting that the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, spoke about special schools and particularly vulnerable children. He spoke about when he was in school way back in the sixties. Obviously, there were children who were from a very poor background and the abuser would always pick on the children he felt were more vulnerable or whose families would not have the capacity to be able to stand up if they went home and told, whereas other families might have. The abusers were able to work that out. That has been one of the elements of all of this. Very often we find the abuser picked out on whom they would carry out their abuse and picked where they would carry it out. The whole scope of this needs to go right to the core of that and recognise that many of the people who have been so damaged by all of this may not have the capacity to be able to come forward in the same way as others. That is something that needs to be acknowledged. That is why it is so important this exercise goes to the very core of it and that everybody gets an opportunity not just to tell their story but to ensure their story is heard. These people have been the victims of terrible childhood trauma, which has had a lifelong impact on their lives. It is a positive step but the issue of redress and a whole lot of other issues need to be looked at here. I urge the Government to take this very seriously and move it forward with haste.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome members of the Ryan family to the Gallery this afternoon. We remember their brother Mark and commend all of those survivors, some of whom have had the courage and internal strength to be able to come forward. For the others who we know are watching this at home and who may never have said it out loud, we commend them nonetheless for surviving what they have been through. I welcome this announcement. I am genuinely confused about the exclusion of physical abuse. As has been requested, the Minister may be able to provide us with an explanation. I am reminded of a very close family member of mine who is now deceased. She had her head battered off the blackboard in school repeatedly. She had a massive scar down her face. She wore a fringe all her life to disguise it. It seems very unfair that this very real physical abuse that was visited on her would not be part of this.

Like others, I have spoken to survivors of mental, physical and sexual abuse in schools. The evil bastards who perpetrated these vicious crimes acted with impunity. They absolutely did and they had cover for their actions. They often had help from the health board and An Garda Síochána, making sure their secrets were kept hidden and their victims discredited or ignored. It is hard to see how this damage will be undone but I welcome this important step. It is important the Minister gets this right. It cannot be a gesture. It has to be about justice, recognition and collective truth-telling. We cannot fully heal until we name the ways in which this systemic abuse and the systemic secrecy shaped us and shaped how we live and who we are today.

The impact of this abuse was felt not just by the child at that time but it lives with them forever and influences their family and their whole lives. The Minister referred to institutional sexual abuse but the truth is that the trauma is here today. It is not historical necessarily. It lives with people right up to today. Deputy Kenny spoke about power and the Minister spoke about shame. It is really important that the shame switches sides and that the shame is on the abuser and on those who covered up, no matter what their role was. However, it also has to be about power and returning power to those survivors, giving them back the power that was so cruelly taken from them.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the establishment of this commission. It is very welcome and very long overdue. It is essential that this commission of investigation must be survivor-centred and the terms of reference must be comprehensive and drafted in consultation with the survivors and the representative organisations. Given that up to 300 allegations of sexual abuse in 32 schools in Cork were recorded during the scoping exercise, I suspect it is more. I have spoken to some of these survivors. I have known these survivors. Many have detailed that they had to emigrate because they were hurt. Many experienced marital breakdown, psychiatric events, addiction and suicide attempts. In 1981, The Stranglers song "Golden Brown" was at number one and I was called in by my school principal and told I was not going to be thrown out of the school but they would much prefer if I did not come back after the Easter holidays. That is how they dealt with cover-ups and abuse - they just got rid of it. I heard speakers talking about it and burying stuff. I commend the Ryan family because the two most difficult things to do in this country are to tell the truth and help people. You will be absolutely battered and punished for it.

What makes me angry here is the cover-up that happened in this. I urge us all to work together on this. I have lost many friends. It took over 22 years to find out what actually happened in the area I represent in east Cork. I have lost school friends from primary school where the abuse started. I was not aware of it and I was in the same class. It continued into secondary school. People ran away from the school and came back qualified as solicitors and everything else but unfortunately ended their lives. Between 2000 to 2002, we had 59 suicides in east Cork, 58 of which were men.

This is a huge scoping exercise. I also point out that some of the people who were responsible for this and who are accountable are still alive. Some of these principals and vice principals, Christian Brothers and lay teachers, are still alive. Others have thankfully been convicted and have died in prison but this is a huge issue. I am only speaking from my own experiences. I have been lucky enough that I was strong enough to stand back from it but there are others who have died as a result of this. Please let everybody work together and do the right thing for these survivors.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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This commission to investigate historical sexual abuse in schools is very much welcomed but it is long overdue. With every year of delay, survivors grow older and the risk of evidence being lost increases. Thousands of children across the State were failed by those entrusted to protect and raise them. Not only were they failed but their entire childhood was ripped away and destroyed. It is vital that survivors play a central role in this commission. It must be survivor-centred. While the commission represents progress, I am extremely disappointed that physical abuse is excluded. The Minister must address this point and clarify why this decision was made.

Recently, I met a man who was failed by the State 72 years ago. After the tragic loss of his mother, he and his sibling were placed under the supported care of the Sisters of Charity. This happened despite neighbours offering to care for him and his family to keep them together as one. The State intervened and said no. The State ensured the family was torn apart and sent to a boarding school. As the survivor told me, it was more of a workhouse than a boarding school. The horror and brutality he endured as a child is staggering. Seventy-two years later it still haunts him. The institution and the religious order that inflicted such brutality must be held accountable. The suffering inflicted does not just devastate the survivors; it ripples onto each passing generation. The children of these survivors are left shouldering that emotional burden too.

We have heard the Ministers promise this before. Now, we need action. This man's childhood could have been saved from horror; instead, the State failed him repeatedly, denying him the chance of a normal stable life and denying him a life surrounded by family, neighbours and a community who wanted to care for him. He was cast to the wolves by the State. As important as redress is for survivors, the people responsible for robbing their childhoods need to be fully accountable for their actions or for watching on and doing nothing. I worked with adults with disabilities, who are some of our most vulnerable people, many of whom do not have a voice. We need a person-centred approach, one that does not retraumatise survivors. They have been through enough.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We all welcome this belated move to set up this commission of investigation. We have all heard the stories of family members, friends and constituents and watched documentaries featuring people who had the courage to come forward and tell their stories and, let us be honest, force the Government to set up a means to investigate and somehow reconcile with the past. I hope this commission of investigation will bring healing and acknowledgement and that a measure of justice will be made available to victims of sexual abuse in schools. It is frustrating and hard when every single move has to be fought for. People have to campaign and bare their souls on national media to get any semblance of justice. When other instances of abuse, including physical abuse, that happened on the watch of the State, are looked at, I ask that the State and Government are not so slow to make amendments and take action.

Anybody who listened to Philip Boucher-Hayes's radio show over the past couple of weeks or listened back afterwards will have heard some of the testimonies of people abused and brutalised in schools. I am talking about physical abuse, the thousands of daily violent assaults against children carried out under a veneer of legality due to the corporal punishment rules that existed at the time. It is important that we are clear that the abuse, brutality and assaults that took place - the physical abuse against children by people in positions of power who were supposed to be caring for them - was illegal, criminal behaviour then. It was criminal assault. It was not covered under corporal punishment, as backward and brutal as those rules were. What happened in those schools was far beyond what those intolerable rules allowed. That should not be used as an excuse for the State to duck its responsibilities to those victims. That physical abuse caused real and lasting harm to those children well into their adult lives. I urge the Minister to include, either in this commission of investigation or in a separate commission of investigation, physical abuse in religious-run schools and national schools run by the State with a view to bringing about restitution, acknowledgement and a measure of justice and healing which the people affected also deserve.

Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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A couple of days ago, I got a phone call from a guy I knew. He saw the Minister talk about the commission of investigation. His voice was very low when I was talking to him. A member of his family was in the house and he did not want them to hear what he was talking to me about because of the shame and stigma that are still there. He did nothing wrong; he is a victim and a survivor. People want justice and for their voices to be heard. Why has this taken so long? This man said he is not looking for anything; he wants his voice and his story to be heard. He is looking for justice. He is an exceptionally brave person, like everyone else who has been a victim of this abuse.

The new commission of investigation will be a relief to many but it will also bring back the trauma of what they went through. I spoke to a mother and baby home survivor who said that every time she walks into a shop and sees the newspaper headlines or turns on the news, she is retraumatised and it brings it all back. There can be no more delays. This has to be moved on. I think everyone is of one mind that this work is really important and needs to be done. It should be borne in mind how difficult it will be for the survivors. They cannot be left waiting for answers. A lady contacted me last year who also falls under this commission of investigation. She said she was a damaged person. She has worked hard and done very well but she still suffers greatly. She deserves justice. Justice delayed is justice denied. Unfortunately, we have seen the cruelty of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael in the mother and baby home redress schemes. I hope this Government has learned from that and the mistakes of the past will not be made again. I was at an event last year where I met a fella I went to school with. There was a Christian Brother convicted of abuse and he pleaded guilty - Brother Brian in the North Monastery. I was in the same year as this lad who was abused by this Christian Brother who went to jail. He is lucky he has a great wife and a great family. He and all these victims need support. Some of them have had to do it alone and that is not right.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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While the establishment of the long-overdue commission of investigation cannot but be welcomed, I will not, in good conscience, applaud a process that has taken far too long to come into being. I think today particularly of the older survivors I have met and engaged with. They expressed to me how they felt through the years that the State was waiting for them to die, hoping time would erase their voices. The impact of the actions of the perpetrators did not end when the abuse ended. The impact has caused innocent survivors a lifetime of pain and trauma, sometimes borne in isolation.

It is important that open, easily accessible and ongoing mental health supports are made available to every survivor who wants to engage and to their families. Survivors have called for truth-telling, acknowledgement and dignity. They want their voices to be heard. Some survivors, particularly older ones, expressed to me their view that five years is too long. They are fearful they will not see justice or outcomes in their lifetimes. It has also been put to me by those who suffered physical abuse that the scope of this inquiry does not go far enough and limiting it to sexual abuse only risks repeating the exclusion and fragmentation that has plagued past investigations. The fact there is no guaranteed redress scheme is of serious concern. Survivors deserve compensation and support, not the promise of future consideration.

That institutions or religious orders may still evade accountability is unacceptable. Sinn Féin has long called for the State to use every legal lever to compel co-operation and contribution. That must happen. The horrendous childhood experiences of survivors cannot and will not be forgotten by them or their families. Likewise, the State should not forget their lived experience. This State owes survivors more than sympathy; it owes them the truth, justice and action that has been too long deferred. It owes them a proper, fitting memorialisation of that lived experience and their immense bravery and determination, which have brought this State to establish the commission of investigation. That is warranted and needed and must be included as part of the commission's work.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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For too long, survivors have had to fight to be heard. Since 2009, I have known and worked with courageous men who were the victims of sexual abuse at Creagh Lane school in Limerick. I met some of them again yesterday. The way they have been treated is frankly appalling. They have been on a very long journey to justice. Unfortunately, that journey has yet to be concluded. These men were failed terribly by the State. It is important that while we discuss this issue, we do not lose sight of just how evil these crimes were.

One survivor of Creagh Lane, who told me he was abused at the age of eight, described the school being about survival and him looking at a teacher and thinking, "How do I get away?" Another survivor told of how he had to be tied to a buggy just to get him to school. Yet another spoke about how he shut down, stating, "All I know is I was crying for my mother."

This abuse impacted on them as children and has followed them into adulthood, some suffering mental health challenges and others having left this world through suicide. From protests outside the gates of Dáil Eireann to bringing their concerns to the European Parliament, these men have fought to bring attention to the abuse and their nearly daily battle to seek redress. The case cuts to the heart of how we, as a State, have treated those who have been wronged. The commission of investigation must be better. It must take a very different approach to that taken by previous Governments in the context of dealing with reports of such vile abuse. Following Louise O'Keeffe's 15-year legal battle, it took years for survivors of sexual abuse in day schools to have themselves included in redress schemes, years which, unfortunately, many of the men abused at Creagh Lane did not have. While several of the issues relating to Creagh Lane have been addressed, we are far from getting closure. I urge the Minister to make contact with the group as a matter of urgency and discuss their ongoing issues, which are far from being sorted. The abuse they suffered is not historical. They live with the terrible consequences to this very day.

The establishment of a commission of investigation is a long overdue acknowledgment of the harm done to thousands of children in the State. However, I am concerned that the commission will have up to five years to submit its report. That is far too long.

To echo some of the comments my colleagues made about physical abuse, there has to be some version of that included in the report because thousands of people suffered such abuse. I saw it in my school and classroom. I saw colleagues in my classroom being absolutely battered, smashed off the walls and smashed over the heads for making simple mistakes with essays, etc. Children nowadays would have probably been diagnosed as dyslexic, not as being bold or as truants. They were absolutely smashed every single day of the week, and they will all be excluded from this.

Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Before I begin, I acknowledge the presence of Mr. David Ryan in the Public Gallery. Mr. Ryan and his brother Mark participated in an RTÉ radio documentary, which precipitated all of what we are speaking about today.

The establishment of this commission of investigation is welcome. It is not before time. The scourge of child sexual violence in our schools and the abject failure of authority figures and institutions to protect defenceless young people from this life-changing abuse is something that Irish society needs to address. We need to do so in the open and with a determination to honour those who are speaking out and to prevent similar abuses in the future. I say this as the chairperson of a national school board. There will be no way of protecting children in the future if we cannot acknowledge and address the failings of the past.

I would like to record my utmost respect for all those who have brought us to this point. Their determination to see these horrific injustices acknowledged and redressed is a gift to Irish society. It is a huge service to us all and it comes at enormous personal cost. Openness and transparency are so important. I am aware that the Government and other institutions of power have excelled in the past at covering up the reality of child sexual abuse, a reality that they knew about and could have responded to but chose not to. We need only look to the Carrigan report affair in 1931 to see the DNA of denial that blighted child protection in Ireland from the State’s foundation. The Carrigan committee, appointed in 1930, held 17 sittings and one of its witnesses was the police commissioner of the time who highlighted an:

... alarming amount of sexual crime increasing yearly, a feature of which was the large number of cases of criminal interference with girls and children from 16 years downwards, including many cases of children under 10 years of age ...

The police commissioner said he believed less than 15% of sexual crime was being prosecuted for various reasons but the Government of the day chose not to publish neither the 1931 Carrigan committee's report nor the evidence given to the committee. This was on the advice of the Department of Justice, as we learned from archival files released in the 1990s. The Department of Justice decided that the obvious conclusion to be drawn from the report was that the ordinary feelings of decency and the influence of religion had failed in Ireland and that the only remedy was by way of police action. This attitude, that the problem of child sexual abuse was better left unsaid and unaddressed by the criminal justice system, seemingly for the sake of religious morality and in an attempt to maintain a outward sense of respectability for the State, had very real and awful consequences for the children affected.

In 2014, the European Court of Human Rights ruled in Louise O’Keeffe’s favour against Ireland because over the 20th century the Irish Government adopted an entirely hands-off approach to monitoring the behaviour of teachers in State-funded, religious-run schools, that is to say, in the vast majority of schools in Ireland. Louise O’Keeffe successfully established that it was a breach of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights - that is, the right to be free from torture and other cruel treatment - for the State not to have any way of parents complaining to Government authorities over instances of abuse. Instead, parents were sent to the parish priest. As the European Court of Human Rights ruled, the State failed in its due diligence duties to protect children and young people from abuse in schools. This inquiry will delve into that issue in detail. Religious and other authorities also failed massively.

We cannot fail in our obligation to ensure a human-rights-respecting response through an effective investigation and adequate redress. The Government’s terms of reference for this inquiry need some amendment to avoid some of the grave injustices done in recent years to those affected by matters that commissions of investigation have already addressed. First, it is imperative to listen to what Inclusion Ireland is telling us about the needs of people with intellectual disabilities, who will represent a significant number of those affected by sexual abuse in schools. It is imperative that we learn from the Grace case. Inclusion Ireland’s CEO, Ms Derval McDonagh, wrote in the Irish Examiner yesterday that in the scoping inquiry, 17 special schools accounted for 590 allegations involving 190 alleged perpetrators. That is 25% of the total number of allegations of abuse. Inclusion Ireland has asked us to raise with the Minister the need to change No. 8(a) of the terms of reference in order that the survey intended to identify test cases will be accompanied by other methods that give due recognition to the particular communication needs of individual survivors.

No. 11(a) of the terms of reference needs to be amended in order that survivors will be explicitly guaranteed accessible information and communication, including, but not limited to, audio, visual, plain English and easy-to-read versions of all relevant documents and materials. We must also facilitate the inclusion of intermediaries and independent advocates to support every person’s participation.

No. 11(b) must explicitly guarantee survivors legal representation in order that their statutory rights under section 12 of the Commissions of Investigation Act mean something in practice. Section 12 of the Act gives every person who comes before the commission as a witness the right to access and comment on all evidence relevant to them.

On No. 12(a), Inclusion Ireland and I are very concerned about the use of the term "incapacitated". Every person has the right to make decisions, including through assisted decision-making, where necessary. This term of reference needs to be amended to comply with our obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act. I agree with Inclusion Ireland that there should be an advisory panel of people with disabilities who can provide inputs to the chair of the commission.

I also acknowledge what One In Four has said about the fact that this inquiry will not be a substitute for other forms of justice and accountability. I would argue – and my wife, the brilliant Dr. Maeve O’Rourke, has written extensively about this – that some previous State inquiries have, unfortunately, acted as a barrier to other forms of justice. They have sealed documents, thereby preventing survivors from accessing them. They have refused to give survivors a transcript of their evidence. They have denied survivors legal advice or assistance, while alleged wrongdoers have the resources to demand and comment on all evidence and draft findings. They have not shared evidence with the Garda. It is notable that the IICSA historical child sexual abuse inquiry in England and Wales stated explicitly in its terms of reference, "Any allegation of child abuse received by the Inquiry will be referred to the Police."

I would like to know more from the Minister about how, if at all, this inquiry will co-operate with the Garda. Many survivors would expect that if the commission of investigation is gathering information about alleged wrongdoers – particularly if it is gathering corroborating information from many different sources – that it will share this information. I would also like to know if the Minister has discussed this issue with survivors and what changes might need to be made to the underlying legislation or the terms of reference to ensure that survivors’ expectations of criminal justice are met.

The commission will cover a wide range of experiences and contexts. Some survivors and advocacy groups like Restore Together take a restorative approach to justice, whereas others will be more focused on accountability and redress, like those suing the Christian Brothers. The commission will need to be cognisant and accommodating of both of these approaches. There must also be greater efforts to mitigate the risk of retraumatisation in the in the inquiry proper. The scoping inquiry report notes that a key concern for survivors is the risk of retraumatisation arising out of cross-examination during testimony. There is a confidential element that has the potential to be more therapeutically informed, but the commission will have no regard to its work in its overall findings.

I refer the Government to the work of Dr. James Gallen in that regard. Dr. Gallen identified a failure in our approach to cross-examination in protecting the rights of survivors and found that our approach in public inquiries is unduly conservative. Dr. Gallen notes that it is by no means inevitable that cross-examination will remain traumatising and distressing for survivors. It is a choice that has been made. He has identified plausible alternatives, like ground hearings or the use of intermediaries, which, while by no means perfect, are a significant improvement on the status quo. Dr. Gallen goes on to state that there is no logical justification for denying victim-survivors accommodations and protections that they would be afforded as witnesses in a criminal trial. However, he notes that the provision of special protections is likely inadequate given that the system is adversarial.

Tribunals and commissions of investigations are not courts and should not be treated as such, particularly when vulnerable people are involved. Fundamentally, the point I am trying to make, and the point that Dr. Gallen makes, is that we need to adopt a non-confrontational approach that minimises the risk of retraumatisation to the greatest extent possible.

I mentioned previously that there are different approaches and perspectives on justice among survivors and advocacy groups, including those suing the Christian Brothers. I attended a fine Christian Brothers' school but it is utterly shameful how obstructionist and downright immoral the Christian Brothers and other religious orders have been in terms of redress to victims and survivors of abuse in the schools they operated. My party leader, Deputy Bacik, has published a Bill that would facilitate child sexual abuse proceedings against unincorporated associations, including religious orders, and provide a mechanism for recovering damages from the associated lay-run trusts which have been set up by these bodies and to which their assets have typically been transferred. I understand that when the Bill was published prior to the general election, Deputy Bacik received a commitment from the Tánaiste, Deputy Harris, the then Taoiseach, that he would work with her on it. The Bill has been sent to the current Taoiseach as well. As yet, there not been a response. I urge the Taoiseach and the Minister to work with Deputy Bacik on getting the Bill over the line. The bitter experience of so many survivors shows that any appeals to religious orders based on their moral duties will be ineffective. The State must have the necessary and robust powers to compel these orders to provide survivors with the justice and redress they deserve.

Robert O'Donoghue (Dublin Fingal West, Labour)
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Ireland has been scarred by decades of institutional abuse. Due to the clergy, industrial schools, mother and baby homes and Magdalen laundries, nearly every family in Ireland has felt some trace of pain. It is not lost on me that we are discussing this topic when excavation work is starting on the mother and baby home in Tuam. Survivors have been denied justice for far too long. I welcome the announcement by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, that the Government is to establish a statutory commission of investigation into historical sexual abuse in schools. However, I do not believe that survivors should need to wait five years for the outcomes of the process. This move is long overdue. It only came about thanks to the bravery of survivors, advocates, the findings of the scoping inquiry and the tireless work of campaigners who fought for truth and justice for so many years. This commission is a vital step forward, a chance to uncover truth, accountability and justice and to shine light on the dark and painful reality of the abuse that occurred in our schools. We need to look at why allegations and concerns were ignored and concealed over so many decades in hundreds of schools, most of them run by religious orders.

We owe an enormous debt of gratitude to the survivors and to every person who has come forward to share their trauma. I would like to acknowledge the enormous work done by One In Four, which worked persistently to help survivors to break the silence surrounding childhood sexual abuse. Its courage helped to expose one of the most shameful chapters in our education system. This process must be about making sure these voices are heard. For survivors who have never spoken about the horrors they experienced, I urge them to come forward to take part in this investigation. They will be supported every step of the way.

While this commission is hugely welcome, it must not stand alone. Survivors have been clear. This cannot just be symbolic. We must include real accountability from religious orders' school bodies responsible. That needs financial contributions too because burdens of redress should not fall on the taxpayer alone. The Labour Party is again calling on the Government to establish a redress scheme in parallel with the commission. Survivors should not be forced to wait years for justice. That redress scheme must be fully resourced, transparent and led by survivors. It is also essential that religious orders, many of which are directly responsible for the schools involved, pay their fair share. They must not be allowed to hide behind legal loopholes, trusts or technicalities to avoid their obligations. The Labour Party brought forward its Bill in order to remove the very obstacles that have for so long stood in the way of redress.

I take this opportunity to highlight the critical and central legislation brought forward by my colleague Deputy Ivana Bacik on behalf of the Labour Party. Deputy Bacik worked tirelessly on the civil liability (child sexual abuse proceedings against unincorporated bodies of persons) Bill, which is designed to remove the legal barriers that have prevented many survivors of institutional abuse from taking civil actions against religious orders responsible. For too long, these institutions, many of them unincorporated bodies, have evaded accountability by hiding behind complex legal structures and transferring assets into lay-run trusts. Survivors have faced enormous obstacles when seeking justice. This legislation, brought forward by the Labour Party, would change that. It would also allow survivors to bring civil claims directly against unincorporated bodies such as religious orders. Crucially, it gives courts powers to access the assets held in associated trusts, even where these trusts were set up to shield an institution from liability. It is a simple principle: if you are responsible, you must be accountable.

Survivors must not be met with silence or legal gymnastics. They deserve a fair pathway to justice. This Bill is about making sure no institution can hide from responsibility any longer. We call on the Government to support the Bill and act now to deliver real justice for survivors. The Labour Party's Bill would create a clear and immediate pathway to justice and we call on the Government to support it without delay.

This moment calls for more than words; it calls for firm action. Now is the time to stand with those survivors to ensure they are heard and make sure that those responsible are finally held to account. Survivors have waited long enough.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the establishment of a commission of investigation into historical child sexual abuse in schools and the opportunity to discuss the matter. This is a long-overdue step in the pursuit of truth, accountability and justice for survivors throughout our country. However, it is not just a national issue, it is a local issue too. In Dún Laoghaire, in my constituency, the impact of abuse by religious orders in day and boarding schools is deeply felt. The names of schools and institutions may vary but the stories of trauma, secrecy and silence are tragically familiar. I pay tribute to the late Mark Ryan, who sadly passed away in September 2023. I welcome David, his brother, and his colleagues to the Public Gallery.

The Ryan brothers came forward to tell their stories in the documentary "Blackrock Boys". They and other survivors deserve the truth and justice from the institutions involved. The men's courage, at times to their personal cost, is the reason we are here today. I commend the work of Mary O'Toole, senior council, whose scoping inquiry brought 2,395 allegations, involving 884 individuals over 300 schools, to light, including 590 from special schools alone. These are not just numbers; they are lives derailed and trust betrayed.

I also welcome the expansion of the commission to all schools. I called for this when the issue originally came to public prominence. Survivors have made it clear that they want inclusion, not fragmentation. They want the truth, not tied up in footnotes. I welcome the Government's decision to act on that call to expand the remit and to take a sampling approach to ensure timely delivery. That was the right decision and I commend the Minister and the Department for recognising the breadth of the trauma inflicted and the diversity of schools in which it occurred.

Let us be clear: truth without accountability is not justice. Many survivors, including those in Dún Laoghaire, have spoken of the need for financial redress, not as compensation but as a recognition of the impact of the abuse while under the care of these institutions. It is not just about looking back. It is about protecting children today. The scoping report confirms that child protection measures in our schools have improved, but survivors have rightly insisted that the system must be made even stronger. I support the implementation of every one of those recommendations.

I hope this commission will not only uncover the truth but will give survivors in every community, including Dún Laoghaire, a voice, a hearing and, ultimately, a measure of healing. Let us proceed with care, courage, compassion and an unshakable commitment to justice.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I also welcome the establishment of the commission by the Minister last week. It is appropriate but, at this juncture, it is worth looking back at how it came about.

Reference has been made to those survivors who brought it about through their courage. Let us never underestimate the courage and determination it would have required for the victims who came forward in the "Blackrock Boys" episode of "Documentary on One" and all the people who came after them, encouraged by their bravery. They came forth, engaged with the scoping inquiry and told their stories so we got some idea of the enormous scope of this problem, how many were affected and suffered over many decades as a result of sexual abuse in schools.

It is important to welcome the fact that the Minister took on board the recommendations of the scoping inquiry and has now enveloped those non-religious schools or those other schools that were outside the scope of the inquiry. They need to be part of it as well. That the Minister took those recommendations on board is positive. The only negative is that it potentially exposes the State to greater financial liability in terms of the damage that was done to people. I do not have a problem with that. In fact, I think it is our responsibility as a State to stand up and be counted in respect of what happened and to accept responsibility for it.

What is most important for those people who were abused within State or religious institutions, in religious schools or by religious orders, is that when it comes to paying the bill, they deserve financial compensation, and I agree with that, but that compensation is not there in any way to put them back to where they were. It cannot do that. It is, however, an incredibly important marker of the importance and extent of the damage done to them. One of the things we, as a society, recognise, whether we like it or not, is that when we put down financial compensation, it reflects the seriousness of a matter. That happens in our courts all the time. If we are not willing to back up inquiries, commissions, scoping exercises and all the rest with actual resources to acknowledge the harm done, it is all for nothing. Those things come together.

When we look back at the history of the State, these appalling acts are not new to us. We knew they happened in other institutions. More have been exposed in recent years and we have seen another sad face of Ireland. When that happens, if an institution has responsibility or liability in that regard, we must be absolutely sure it cannot avoid it. We cannot have a repeat of what happened 23 years ago when religious institutions essentially were let out the door with a limited liability. I am thinking of my own constituency and the Edmund Rice Schools Trust, which runs the Christian Brothers' Clonkeen College. That school is just down the road from where I grew up. That body has frustrated the handing over of money to the Department of Education to cover compensation. It has done so in a way that has further compounded the damage it did to children. The current students of Clonkeen College are denied playing pitches next to the school because that body has, in an effort to leverage the Department of Education, cut off the pitches next to the school and tried to barter with the Department on its financial liability. That can never be allowed to happen. It is compounding the damage done in the past by individuals who were members of orders. We now have a situation whereby that damage carries on to the current generation of children. Boys in Clonkeen College cannot use pitches next door to their school. They are denied a resource that should be available to them.

When it comes to being answerable for these things, the State has ultimate liability and must put together a scheme to compensate those people. The Minister was right when she said that work could continue in parallel with the work of the commission. I look forward to what Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath is going to do. He is a judge of impeccable credentials and I know he will bring an independence of thought to this that will be very welcome. While he is doing his work, there is no reason we cannot be progressing work on a redress scheme. Most importantly, if there are other bodies from which moneys can be recovered, punitively, in terms of recognition or whatever else it might be, as much to recognise the damage done as to save the taxpayer money, we need to ensure there is no loophole to allow those institutions to get out of it. We must ensure there is no alternative avenue for bodies that are responsible for terrible abuses - crimes, in no uncertain terms - for them to evade paying dues that would otherwise be covered by the Irish taxpayer. That must be absolutely clear and certain when redress schemes come. There can be no letting institutions off the hook, as happened in the past in a disgraceful way.

When we look at this broad spectrum of issues, we, as a country, must first and foremost acknowledge that we have failed those children who were abused, those individuals who were the victims of sexual assault, violence and abuse. Crimes were committed against them and we must acknowledge that we failed them because the systems to protect them were not in place at the time. We like to think they are now, but they can always be improved. We can always do more to protect our children. We have acknowledged that in retrospect.

I recently spoke at an event for the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, and criticised another country's record in respect of a particular human rights issue. We in Ireland, despite the fact that we hold ourselves out as a reasonable country that respects the rule of law, is progressive and all those kinds of things, must also now acknowledge our human rights abuses in the past. This is part of it. We cannot stand on the international stage, criticise other countries and say they are not doing enough, that they should not do this or that, without also saying that we are not perfect. We have made gross mistakes in the past that have damaged families, households, children, adults, children who became adults, and all the other individuals involved. We must acknowledge that. The acknowledgment of that is not just about words but must also include compensation. It must be a tangible mark of the damage that was done and the fact that we as a State and nation accept responsibility for our part in failing to protect those children and to deal with those issues in a timely manner. This has been going on far too long.

Just this morning I went with my daughter to what will be her first school to meet the teachers. We entrust our children to those custodians, educators and teachers. We expect our children to be protected. We expect them to be safe. As parents, we hope and expect that. As a State and country, we have an obligation to ensure that is not just an idle hope and expectation but is backed up by proper regulation and protection. We hope that will be the case. As we look to the future, the way we ensure that these horrible things are not discussed in this Chamber in 20, 30, 40 or 100 years' time is to ensure those protections are in place to protect children. They should have been protected a generation or two generations ago and we must ensure children are protected into the future. All of that is the responsibility of the people who occupy this Chamber and the Government. It is an awesome responsibility, but is not beyond delivery. We can do it, but it comes with a package of measures that includes acknowledgement, compensation and future protection.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think anyone is going to stand up and say they are not happy or relieved, if those are the right terms, at the establishment of the commission of investigation into the handling of historical child sexual abuse in day and boarding schools. Sometimes when you say it quickly, you do not get the full ramifications of what we are talking about.

We know there have been huge failures in relation to children, women and a whole cohort of people. We know the issues people have had in fighting the State and how the State has fought back when it should not have. We should have had accountability and transparency, and those needs should have been addressed. We acknowledge that even late, it is better that this finally happens.

We know we still must deal with issues such as those who suffered the brutal abuse of Michael Shine. We know how long it took those women who suffered symphysiotomy to get an element of justice. I agree with many other Deputies that when we talk about mother and baby homes and all the rest of it, and when we talk about the number of religious orders and their history of abuse, there has been abject failure to hold them properly to account. I agree with what many others have said. It is not good enough. We must ensure that legal technicalities are not good enough. We can see what the Christian Brothers and others have done to try to protect themselves when they failed miserably to protect children. There is no greater sin.

We welcome that this is happening. As I say, it is not before time. We must ensure the commission deals with all the cases it should. We need to look at issues in respect of those who suffered physical abuse. I previously brought up an issue with the Minister, Deputy Foley, and, in fairness to her, there has been some decent engagement.

It related to a man who, when he was eight, in 1970, in Dublin, suffered brutal physical and sexual abuse. It is only when you deal with this that you realise just how real and how terrible it all is. We need to deal with what has been an absolutely brutal legacy in this State. There are other issues - unfortunately, there always will be - but we need to deliver justice for people a lot quicker.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the establishment of a commission of investigation into historical sexual abuse in schools. I commend all survivors on coming forward. I send a special thought to those who cannot come forward or those who are no longer with us due to this. This is very long overdue. This scandal has damaged countless lives, and for far too long survivors have carried the burden of silence, shame and institutional denial. The failure of successive governments to properly and finally deal with it in a comprehensive way has added to the trauma of survivors. Sexual abuse in young children tends to end up with the child feeling shame and guilt. They do not understand what is going on. They know it is wrong, they know it hurts and often they ask what they have done to bring it on them. They should never, ever feel that shame or guilt. It is not their fault they were too young to know even what was going on.

In my county of Clare, there have been allegations of sexual abuse in schools. Those allegations have named six perpetrators, and we can assume that probably more names were added to that. The fact that the scope does not include physical violence means that victims are left feeling they do not matter but also means perpetrators are getting away with victimising children and making it out to be normal to be abused physically.

It is essential now that the Government liaise with survivor groups and Opposition parties to ensure the commission is as robust as possible. We must ensure that the failings of past inquiries are not replicated. Survivors' voices and experience must be to the forefront in this inquiry. They need to be acknowledged and listened to. They have waited for far too long. Previous inquiries failed them and ignored them. Here we are 11 years later discussing the establishment of a commission of inquiry to provide an effective resolution for victims of sexual abuse in Irish schools. It is appalling that victims have had to take legal action to force the Government to do its job and vindicate their rights. These cases represent a disgraceful dereliction of duty by the State. The findings of the O'Toole scoping inquiry were appalling but not surprising, but one of the most heartbreaking conclusions of the inquiry was that many survivors never felt safe or supported enough to come forward. For years they were met with disbelief, silence or threats. The scoping exercise highlighted how systems had failed children repeatedly, not just through acts of abuse but through the coverups and neglect that followed. I hope the victims of this get what they deserve.

Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I welcome this Bill and acknowledge the fact that the Minister has progressed this very quickly in her position. My colleagues will go into more detail about the specifics of the Bill, but I will just use these few minutes to ask that when the Government is looking at this redress scheme it learns from previous redress schemes and the mistakes we have made in the past. Oftentimes our previous redress schemes retraumatised and really failed people over and over again in the most public and inhumane way.

I want to talk specifically about Westbank Orphanage in Greystones, Wicklow. There were 30 to 50 children in Westbank Orphanage at any one time. It moved to Wicklow in the 1940s and closed its doors only in 2002. The children within that orphanage were beaten with electric flexes and coat hangers. They were starved. They were used as forced labour. They were trafficked up to the North to unregistered foster homes. They were used for fundraising purposes by the woman who ran that home. She treated them absolutely awfully. The children even lost their names in that process. They all had to have her name, Mathers, so they did not know who they were and it was years before many of them even realised that their own brothers and sisters were living with them in that home. It is really awful that the trauma of the children - they are adults now - who suffered at the hands of that woman was not acknowledged by the State and was left out of the mother and baby home scheme. They asked in 2014 and James Reilly at that stage refused to incorporate them into it. They have spent all that time fighting and pushing for their trauma to be acknowledged and for them to be recognised.

I welcome the fact that the Minister of State, Deputy Neale Richmond, in the Seanad in recent weeks has acknowledged the difficult time those victims experienced. He called it out for the historical injustice that it is and gave a personal commitment to get the institution included in the redress scheme. He also said the Tánaiste, Deputy Simon Harris, would also support that, not in this scheme but in the previous scheme. I welcome that move and I absolutely will work with him as much as possible to get this done. These people have been calling for this for many years, so I hope that in this term of Government, finally, they will be heard and acknowledged.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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This is an extremely difficult and challenging topic. I feel a huge weight on me to speak on behalf of people who have experienced child sexual abuse in day and boarding schools. I welcome the visitors to the Gallery. As difficult as it is for me, I do not know the words to describe what it must be like for them. It is very important that we discuss this here, that there can never again be silence for what has happened in the past and that we have full justice for survivors or victims. Those two words are interchangeable throughout my contribution. This needs to be realised through a non-adversarial and trauma-informed approach.

The Scoping Inquiry into Historical Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools Run by Religious Orders from 2022 laid out lessons that must be listened to and implemented for this newly announced Commission of Investigation into the Handling of Historical Child Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools. Well done to the Minister for getting it to where it is now. She is very new in her post and she is to be commended on pushing through with this.

The scoping inquiry, which I read over the weekend, was told of 2,395 allegations of historical sexual abuse in schools run by religious orders, involving 884 alleged abusers in 308 schools countrywide between 1927 and 2013, involving 42 religious orders that run, or previously ran, schools in the State. The 1970s saw the highest number of incidents. This was just a few years after free second level education started. The Central Statistics Office has estimated that the number of people who may have been affected by child sexual violence who are over the age or 35 years is 15,300 men and 26,000 women. That is 41,300 people, and they were children at the time.

The terms of reference of this new commission are vital to ensure that mistakes are not repeated. I am a little concerned, however, that there will be a parallel process with regard to redress. There is no mention of assets of religious orders or schools in the terms of reference, and I am concerned about that. Ireland has already paid €1.5 billion in redress for survivors of intuitional abuse. This is an extremely important detail that should be set out at the beginning and not rely on "parallel" work. I understand what the Minister has said but I am really quite cautious about the fact that it is a parallel thing. I do not want things to be delayed but, at the same time, we have learned from the past that things have not been as they should have been.

The "RTÉ Investigates" programme on the Christian Brothers showed that that entity held, transferred and sold over 800 properties over the course of three decades since the scandal of clerical child sexual abuse began to emerge in full public view from 1990. The scoping inquiry showed that the Christian Brothers were the largest offender when it came to child sexual abuse in schools and the largest provider of schools.

The Minister must make a full statement on this parallel process regarding assets, outlining what is known, how the Government will oversee this "work" and what steps are being taken to address issues in a timely manner.

Legislation to address the lacuna with regard to unincorporated associations is long overdue.

It enables, for example, Christian Brothers to force every victim suing it for child sexual abuse in civil courts to seek court orders for each individual Christian Brother who was a member of the congregation at the time of abuse and effectively taking maybe over 100 cases against brothers instead of one. The exploitation of that legal loophole was first highlighted by RTÉ in 2023 yet today the Christian Brothers continue to exercise this legal tactic in courts.

The “RTÉ Investigates” programme also highlighted the problem for the public in trying to get to the bottom of exactly what assets religious institutions and charities have. The Christian Brothers, for example, do not have to publish their full accounts as a charity here whereas in the North and in England they did. Financial information is available to the public with the exception of charities that are private charitable trusts. The Christian Brothers are not a private charitable trust. Due to a loophole stating that private charitable trusts are not currently required to submit their annual financial statements to the Charities Regulator, because regulations prescribing how these financial statements are prepared were never enacted. I am aware that it is intended that amendments to the Charities Act 2009 and the Charities (Amendment) Act 2024 with tougher regulations to make it a legal requirement for all charities to submit annual financial statements in addition to completing the annual report form. However, the information will still not be published on the register. We need to ensure that these religious orders are compelled by law to be transparent. The amendments to the Charities Act 2009 do not go far enough. Religious orders should not be able to hide behind any legal loopholes.

We know from experience that religious orders and other charities will use every loophole, lacuna and ambiguity in regulation to avoid disclosure. The Government cannot make mistakes made in previous inquiries and have no place to be repeated in this new commission. Unfortunately, Ireland seems to love to repeat making the same mistakes when it comes to the care of children.

The terms of reference must clarify the debt owed to the state from religious bodies and others who failed in their duties to protect children from harm. The former Social Democrats TD Róisín Shortall called for a very significant proportion of costs to come directly from them. This must be included before the commission begins so that it is crystal clear what is expected.

The Government must do everything in its power to ensure this new commission is accessible to all. The scoping inquiry found that a very large number of allegations of abuse happened in special schools. The accommodation rights of people with intellectual disabilities must be recognised in the terms of reference. This includes things like plain English, audio visual and accessible formats of all documents produced. It also means communication accessibility for those who are non-speaking or with literacy disabilities is crucial. The surveys outlined in the terms of reference may not be sufficient for people who have such additional needs. We need to ensure it is as inclusive as possible.

We must also use the lessons we learned from the Grace case and ensure everyone's rights under the UNCRPD are upheld. That includes stipulating how it will be ascertained a person is "incapacitated" and to ensure this part of the terms of reference is compatible with the provisions of the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act and presumption of capacity. It is very concerning to say "incapacitated" without any detail on how this conclusion is arrived at.

The Social Democrats will work with the Minister and all Members of the Oireachtas to make sure this is a trauma-informed, survivor centred and fully appropriate redress scheme for all people. The people who will come forward in this commission are victims and survivors but one thing that must not be forgotten is they were children. They were children at the time the abuse happened to them and it ruined their lives. They had their lives ruined by people in authority who did whatever they wanted to those children and no one stopped it.

When I read the scoping inquiry at the weekend, what really struck me was that children went to day schools and to boarding schools. The children who went to day schools went home at the end of the day, were with their families and they may have been safe for a while but those children who went to boarding schools could not escape. There was nowhere for them to go. They were there day and night and whatever those people wanted to do to them was done to them. They had no one to protect them and they were trapped. Think of the fear of that. How they got through that I really do not know.

The State should not be going with a begging bowl to any religious organisation or school or anyone involved in this and relying on the goodwill of those bodies. People who sexually abused children in our schools or people who covered it up or people who turned a blind eye do not have any good will. They have no morals. They are hiding assets and relying on loopholes to avoid redress. We will work with the Minister. It is incumbent on everyone in the Oireachtas to make sure this is the best it can be for those survivors who have come through. I commend the Minister for this work and look forward to working with her on this and making sure that this is the beginning of the end and we do not need to continually have these inquiries and investigations because it is the end of the silence and the abuse for children in our schools.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I welcome the establishment of this commission of investigation. While I have hope for it I am concerned that while the Commission of Investigation Act 2004 does allow for human rights compliance in the establishment of tribunals, inquiries and commissions of investigation, unfortunately in the two decades since the levels of compliance make a patchwork quilt when it comes to domestic and international standards of human rights compliance. I am concerned that these terms of reference need absolutely to be critically drafted in thinking about human rights compliance and making sure they are trauma informed and meet the needs of survivors. They are the people this is for.

As colleagues have pointed out, a key issue we need to consider is accessibility and making sure that those who are hardest to reach are a part of this process from the very outset. They are the ones who will ultimately feel the impact of this commission of investigation in their own lives.

That leads me to my second point. We still need a real paradigm shift in how the State treats victims of State wrongdoing. There is still a mechanism by which they are treated with suspicion and not cared for in the way the State needs to. We should be looking at people in these situations with compassion and care and we should be recognising the power relationship between the State and these children, as they were, when these wrongs were done to them. It is not one person at fault here. It is not the Civil Service, or the Government or any given Department – it is a state-wide attitude which permeates and still treats people with suspicion and mistrust instead of the compassion and care with which all these commissions of investigation, inquiries and tribunals should be imbued. We can use this opportunity to really turn a corner as a state and to start recognising the role of the State in the treatment of people who have been victims of State wrongdoing with much more care and compassion, taking a trauma-informed and a human-rights compliant approach.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the establishment of this commission of investigation into historical child sexual abuse in all schools. The scoping inquiry received 2,395 allegations involving 884 alleged abusers across 308 schools nationwide. That is 2,395 allegations; 2,395 cases of children abused by monsters, and 2,395 cases of our nation's children being failed by our schools, 308 schools, and by our State. Survivors have shown immense courage in coming forward about their suffering. For too long, survivors have carried their trauma without recognition, accountability, justice or redress. This must finally be put right.

The Government has listened carefully to the findings of the scoping inquiry and to the voices of survivors. The commission will finally deliver recognition, accountability, justice and redress. It will cover all primary and post primary schools. It will also cover how An Garda Síochána, the HSE and the Department of Education handled concerns and reports of child sexual abuse.

Its remit spans from 1927 to 2013 but the commission may focus on specific periods where appropriate.

The commission must take a survivor-centred and trauma-informed approach, with emotional and psychological support to be available throughout. I echo the comments of Caoilfhionn Gallagher, the special rapporteur on child protection, who in welcoming the commission of investigation called for support for survivors at key stages of the process, including clear communication and transparency and steps to mitigate the risks of retraumatisation. I, therefore, welcome the Minister's commitment to establishing a separate survivor engagement programme alongside the commission's investigative work. This is not part of the formal investigation but it is just as important. This process must provide the safety, dignity and respect many were previously denied.

The scoping inquiry made clear that many survivors viewed financial redress as a critical part of accountability and I fully support the Government's approach in pursuing this. The Minister has stated that all potential levers will be used to secure funding from schools and institutions where abuse occurred. In October 2024, the then Taoiseach, Simon Harris, confirmed that the Government may legislate to require organisations to contribute to a redress scheme. The Minister and the Tánaiste have shown leadership on this issue and I welcome their commitment.

The State has a duty to act decisively and ensure accountability in every instance where abuse was allowed to occur. We must ensure the State has the legal means to hold institutions accountable and require contributions from those responsible. I commend the bravery of the survivors who have come forward over the years and who broke the silence and the shame and smashed the culture that allowed this to happen. We owe them our deepest gratitude and respect. My thoughts are especially with the families of those who are not here to see the commission set up. I thank the Minister and all those involved for their work in establishing this commission. Its creation marks an important step forward on the path to truth, accountability and justice. I fully support this motion and the work of the Minister and urge all Members to do the same.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the establishment of the commission of investigation, which, unfortunately, is long overdue. The reality is that we will never know how many victims are not alive to see this day. Louise O'Keeffe had to fight tooth and nail to hold the State to account for the abuse she suffered. This Government and its predecessors have known for decades of the horrendous abuse endured by children who should have been in a safe place, yet it is only setting up the commission of investigation now. That said, I do welcome the commission.

I pay tribute to those children who for years felt they had no voice and that they were not listened to, with State authorities failing to question those responsible. Those authorities have questions to answer, too. What sort of a society turns a blind eye to a child making an accusation of sexual abuse? Perhaps a society in which it is permissible to lock up women for the crime of pregnancy, a society that offered the children of those women up for forced adoption and even for medical experimentation and trials, and a society where physical abuse of children was commonplace.

Why will the Government not investigate the physical abuse of children in schools? We all know it happened. One only has to listen to "Liveline" in recent weeks to hear of the torture that was inflicted on children as young as five. It was torture, and it was facilitated by our schools and our State. Where are the trauma supports for those children? Where is the forum for their truth to be heard, the harrowing stories told by elderly men and women of the torture they were subjected to day after day? This was not corporal punishment. Let us call it what was - it was torture of children. The terms of the commission should be expanded or an additional commission should be created to carry out these investigations.

What redress will be available to victims? We have seen huge delays in setting up redress schemes following previous commissions. The mother and baby institutions payment scheme only opened for applications this year. That commission first met in 2015. The Minister must ensure that we do not get a decade of delay in a redress scheme being established and she must ensure that the schools and institutions at which abuse took place make significant financial contributions to the redress scheme. This must be done in tandem with the commission gathering evidence. It is a sorry state of play that we are here again. I welcome this commission but it must be victim-centred. That is the only way to operate it.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the establishment of a commission of investigation into historical sexual abuse in schools. I am thinking first and foremost of the survivors, some of whom are here in the Public Gallery today, and those who were abused as children in the very places they should have been safe, namely, our schools and our State institutions.

This has been a long time coming. The findings of the commission must acknowledge the harm done to thousands of children across the State. Their voices and their healing must be to the forefront of the investigation. Let us be honest - we have only got here because those brave survivors refused to stay silent. They carried unimaginable pain, so it must be acknowledged that survivors have been waiting a long, long time for this commission.

It must also be noted that those who have been involved in physical abuse have been omitted from this investigation, which is deeply concerning, considering those who endured such harrowing experiences. It was not just corporal punishment. Some of them were, as an Teachta Conway-Walsh noted, tortured. It is imperative that the Minister explain this and reconsider those who have been through physical abuse in these schools and are not being included in this investigation. If we are going to ensure that this investigation truly is centred on those who have experienced abuse, those who have been through physical abuse must be included.

The commission must expose not just the abuse, but the cover-ups. We cannot have a repeat of previous lengthy legal proceedings in which some survivors were totally ignored. An adequate redress scheme is also imperative, one that properly reflects the damage done to families up and down the country. Survivors must be at the heart of every step and their voices and their healing must come first.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I declare my solidarity with all those affected and their families, who still bear the scars and carry the legacy of this abuse. So many abused children went on to develop addictions and health issues as a result of the heinous trauma inflicted upon them. The scale of abuse that was revealed in the scoping inquiry that led to this commission is simply astounding. A total of 2,395 allegations of abuse have been made against 888 alleged abusers but, again, this was in a very small range of schools. Shockingly and sickeningly, almost one quarter were in schools for children with additional needs. We must bear in mind that the inquiry was limited.

The revelations of child sexual abuse in schools run by the Spiritan religious order, particularly Blackrock College, where adult men bravely spoke out - I salute them - about their ruined childhoods at the hands of abusers, indicate massive under-reporting of male abuse generally. We need a secular, objective sex education programme to educate children about abuse - something the religious orders that run these schools have resisted at every hand's turn, along with the far right, on the grounds of protecting children.

Physical abuse has not been included and no redress has been indicated. For far too long, whenever it is put under pressure from a particular scandal or revelation, the Irish establishment has commissioned piecemeal reports or commissions, as seen by the official commission into the mother and baby homes. They have been designed to reveal as little as possible, not just to protect the church, but also to shield the political establishment and indemnify the State financially. We have a redress scheme operating for the mother and baby homes that excludes many. We need a real reckoning with the gross abuse that took place arising from the inordinate power given to the Catholic Church by the Irish State in the century since Independence. Rather than establishing public systems of education, health and care, the State handed over control of these to the church, which resisted any feeble efforts made to establish public education and health.

This is not an historical issue as 90% of primary schools are still religious-run and just 5% are multidenominational.

On redress, it is time to seize the church's assets. We all know the money is there. The widespread abuse was inevitable when secretive organisations like this existed. The Christian Brothers have paid €54 million officially, which is a drop in the ocean. We all know they are hiding money. The figure for the Spiritans is €157 million, for the Brothers of Charity, it is €33.9 million, for the Jesuits, it is €43 million and for St. John of God, it is €54 million. It is time for the Criminal Assets Bureau to get that, to take their land and money so they can atone for what they did.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I welcome that the commission is being established. There are real issues with the very long delay in getting here. There are issues with the timeframe proposed, which is another delay. There are very serious issues with redress and, as I read through it, there are issues with how survivors' testimonies are to be treated. If I get time, I will come back to all that.

I pay tribute to all the survivors. I have met survivors of Creagh Lane school in Limerick a number of times. The abuse they suffered is obviously horrendous and it has had a devastating impact on their lives. They recently came into the possession of church documents that reveal exactly what was going on in the church, the knowledge that those at the top of the church had and the fact that they did nothing apart from move around some teachers and priests who they knew were abusers.

The first letter is from a paedophile Christian Brother to his superiors in the Catholic hierarchy. Dated 24 February 1970, it is from Brother John Kevin Drummond and addressed to Brother Loftus, head of the Christian Brothers' training college. Brother Drummond says it is with deep regret that he sends Brother Loftus the application for a dispensation of his temporary vows. He says he has interfered sexually with some of his pupils and he cannot in conscience allow himself to remain in the congregation, much less go back to the classroom knowing the same thing could happen again. Brother Drummond asks Brother Loftus to accept his sincerest apologies for the harm he has done to the congregation and pray for him that he may make up in some way the harm he has done for those boys. Brother Drummond says he would be very grateful if Brother Loftus would send on the dispensation as soon as possible as he is only a nuisance and embarrassment to the brothers at the moment. He says he has been changed from Limerick where it happened to the Christian Brothers in James's Street, Dublin 8.

Then there is a letter to the vicar general enclosing Brother Drummond's confession. It states:

I have a little more trouble for you. We are getting more than our share of it these days. Our council voted unanimously that he should be dispensed and let go and we would be grateful if you do the needful in the matter as soon as convenient. Of course there is no immediate hurry. If there were, I suppose we could give him leave of absence in anticipation of the dispensation coming.

The third document is one signed by the vicar general. It states:

Acting in accordance with the faculties granted by decree of the Sacred Congregation of Religious and in response to the request of Brother John Kevin Drummond of St. Helen's Province, Ireland, the Governor General, being away from Rome, the Vicar General, with the affirmative vote of the General Council, now declares that Brother John Kevin Drummond is freed from the obligations of his vows.

Brother Drummond is therefore released from his vows, but it is never reported to the Garda. The church later denied any knowledge of what had happened and it concealed the evidence it knew about it for years. The Catholic Church knew all about paedophile priests and brothers. It was and is complicit in the endemic rape and sexual abuse of children. It knew about it but prioritised protecting the reputation and wealth of the church over the needs of the children in its care. The truth is that the State, in thrall to the church, did exactly the same.

Very quickly on the issues, there needs to be redress. Redress cannot be kicked further down the road. The State needs to pay redress now and then pursue the church and religious orders in a full way, including seizing assets, in order to compensate for that. The survivors must receive redress immediately. There cannot be any more delays.

I am concerned with how the terms of reference for the commission refer to the evidence. They state the commission "shall exercise its discretion in relation to the extent of the evidence that it considers ...". They continue:

The Commission may make such findings and further recommendations arising out of its investigation relating to the handling of ... child sexual abuse, and child protection ... In its recommendations, the Commission may also have regard to the work of the Survivor Engagement Programme.

I am concerned about the separation of the survivor testimony, which needs to be core to the work of the commission.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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In my four minutes, I will make some general comments rather than going into the terms of reference, although I share the difficulties. I would have preferred if the terms had come before the Dáil so we could have looked at them and discussed them. We should have learned from previous debacles, but that has not happened. I welcome the Minister’s work but we are now left with a fait accompli in relation to the terms of reference.

We are looking at the period from 1927 to 2013. Incidentally, 2013 was the year the Magdalen report came out and, finally, the State could not get away from the one strong finding that it was fully involved in the oversight of the Magdalen laundries and in using them and providing money. We have had over 100 years of institutionalisation and utterly failing to learn. We have terms of reference here setting out how we have failed to protect children and prevent sexual abuse, the concealment of sexual abuse and so on. This is not new. In my time, we had an apology from the Taoiseach in 1999. Ten years later, the Ryan report showed systematic and systemic abuse at every level in the boys’ industrial schools and serious emotional and physical abuse in the girls’ schools. That was in 2009. We then had the Murphy report on the Archdiocese of Dublin and the Ferns report on Wexford, which makes for the most difficult reading. I cannot imagine what it was like for the victims. We had this over and over. In the case of the mother and baby homes report, even though the body of the work is very good, the executive summary is absolutely appalling. It distinguished between contaminated evidence, which was that of the survivors, and those whose evidence had great value placed on it, namely, the social workers, the religious orders and so on. Have we learned from that? Have we learned from the redress scheme I attended – I am giving it the wrong name – in Dublin, where, even now, I would still be committing an offence if I dared to tell what award was given to the person I represented? Even more important, that person would still be committing an offence if they disclosed.

Then, there is the mother and baby homes redress scheme. I feel the Minister’s former Cabinet colleague, Deputy O’Gorman, was captured by the Department. Babies under six months were left out of that scheme. Imagine leaving out babies under six months. The Minister has been there as a mother. We were told the logic, which was that six months did not matter, the babies' brains were just a tabula rasa, let them cry, it did not matter. It was only after six months they suffered and so we then included them in the redress scheme.

What I am saying with all this – and I have very little time left to say it – is that the institutions have been forced every step of the way. The religious orders have not come on board at all. Each Government has been forced every step of the way to do something on the backs of courageous victims, in this case, the two Ryan brothers, one of whom is now dead. We saw their courage in coming forward in an RTÉ programme. That has been the same throughout, so one has to ask the question how come there has been report after report and still no proactive action from a government, except to set up another commission because the evidence of the thousands of allegations is so overwhelming. What type of society allowed sexual abuse to go on while we decried talk about sexuality as abnormal? That is the environment we were raised in. One did not talk about sexuality, the normal part, while the perverse and perversity continued. While I welcome this commission, I am not full of hope given my experience of commissions of inquiry and given the Grace case and so many reports.

I hope I am wrong.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge the input of Mark and David Ryan in highlighting all the issues we are discussing. It was harrowing to listen to everything that was said in the context of their case. Their work has informed the public and us as legislators.

Like Deputy Connolly, I do not have much hope in what the State is setting about to do. I say that because I watched the Grace case very closely and what was asked of the inquiry. I saw the terms of reference being changed within minutes on the floor of the House because they were recognised as inadequate. The Minister of State at the time, Finian McGrath, came back with a new set of recommendations. Even that did not serve the inquiry well. We saw what happened with the report. We still do not know that much about Grace or the 47 others, who we seemed to wipe from the record. It is an appalling carry-on by a government.

Abuse has gone on in schools and institutions in this State for far too long. The people now moving into their middle and senior years who are known to have been abused have carried the mental stress of that throughout life. Their lives have been destroyed and they have had little or no support from the religious orders concerned or, indeed, the State.

I accompanied a victim of this abuse to meet with representatives of the religious order that was in charge of the school he attended. He was offered three sessions with a counsellor. This man experienced horrific abuse and his life was ruined. He came back to the State from America to resolve things and met nothing but obstacles to his telling his story and getting recognition for what happened to him. The fact the religious order recognised he was abused and then offered three sessions of counselling is, in itself, an indication of how reluctant the orders are to accept responsibility for what happened in their schools.

I recently met a group of people in Kilkenny, all of whom attended the same school and discovered each other by chance. They had not told their partners what happened to them. They had hidden the trauma, grief and sadness in their history from their husbands, wives and families. Now they are telling their stories and they are experiencing huge obstacles in the way of their being recognised for what happened to them. They have no access to counselling other than by paying for it themselves. They are now realising again that their lives were ruined and they have not enjoyed life as they might have expected, whether they are single or married with a family. That is something the State must consider.

I agree with the point made earlier that when a process like this is started, the compensation must run alongside the process. We need the support and counselling services, and any other service that may be required, running alongside the process the Minister is proposing. We must ensure that whatever the circumstances, should anyone who has been sexually abused raise a concern about any aspect of his or her life or current care, that person must be listened to. It is not good enough that the State might listen, learn and then attempt to provide compensation or attempt to address the issues while leaving those who have been really badly sexually abused to live further in that sadness. That must be addressed. Without doing it that way, we are simply creating further trauma for the victims who are attempting to address the issues.

I started by telling the House about the man who came home from America. He is still here trying to address those issues. He has informed the Garda and the religious orders. He has done everything one would expect of someone who had this type of horrific story to tell. Yet, everyone has turned their back on him. He is not the only one.

There is a history of this type of abuse. We know this went on in our schools. We know what happened with the Grace case, which was a different thing. We know that those who are engaged currently with Tusla are experiencing the same obstacles being put in their way when they, as parents, try to protect their children who are saying they have been abused. Those parents are saying they have gone to Tusla only to become the victims of the system. They are being pushed around and made to feel they are the ones guilty of something.

We have seen the courts not deal with issues like this. We have seen some of the settlements ex parte. I met separately with six families recently who tell the same story, with all the same detail. They are not getting justice.

I do not know for how long the State can continue to ignore this type of abuse and wait for it to be dealt with in another 20-plus years' time. We must look constantly to address the issues that are affecting these people's lives. We have to be understanding that this is a huge issue. If not, we will be standing here again in a few years' time addressing Tusla and the abuse of children.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and Minister of State for progressing the commission of investigation. It matters to me, as it matters to all previous speakers. This is a very solemn day, not because we are beginning something new but because we are acknowledging something that was hidden for many years.

The commission is being established because survivors of childhood sexual abuse, both men and women, had the courage to speak. I thank them for that. They have broken silences imposed on them by shame, industrial-institutional power and societal difference. Their testimony has illustrated a dark and systemic failure that occurred not in a single place or era but in day and boarding schools right across our country, spanning generations. The scoping inquiry uncovered almost 2,400 allegations involving more than 880 alleged abusers in 308 schools between 1927 and 2013, which is not that long ago. Many of the allegations were reported from the records of approximately 42 religious orders that currently or previously ran schools in Ireland. These are not just statistics. Every number represents a child's life altered and a trust betrayed.

The Government's acceptance of the inquiry's recommendations, including a comprehensive investigation into the handling by schools, religious orders, State bodies and law enforcement of allegations, is both welcome and essential. So, too, is the appointment of Mr. Justice Michael MacGrath as chair of the commission. His legal experience, including his service in the High Court and the Court of Appeal, ensures the work will be done and guided with independence and integrity.

We must reflect on the substance of the terms of reference.

They go beyond historical fact finding and direct the commission to ask difficult but essential questions. Why were concerns not acted on? How were allegations concealed and-or ignored? What was the role of schools, religious authorities and the State? The inquiry will not only look into what happened, but how it was handled or, indeed, mishandled. That includes failures to report abuse, the shielding of abusers, the moving of individuals between schools and dioceses and the use of legal processes to silence and deflect accountability.

The terms of reference also rightly include a survivor engagement programme, grounded in a trauma-informed approach. This will also allow survivors and the family members of those who cannot speak for themselves to share the impact of their experiences in a safe, supportive and open setting. Their voices are not peripheral to this process; rather, they are central to it.

Some will ask why this has taken so long, why it did not happen sooner and why revisit painful history. The answer is quite simple. Justice does not expire. For too long survivors felt invisible. This commission is a chance to acknowledge that what happened to them mattered, that it should never have happened and that we as a State take responsibility not just for uncovering the truth but for acting on it.

We must ensure that what emerges from the commission leads to real, lasting change. The scoping inquiry found our current child protection systems are robust, but there is always more to be done. Let this commission serve not only as a reckoning with our past, but as a recommitment to the future of our children where safeguarding is not optional and silence is never again a shield for abuse.

Courage can be a challenge and everyone who has the courage to speak out should be commended. They might find solace in knowing their story will contribute to the safeguarding of the youth of today.

To the survivors, I say to them that they have been heard and acknowledged. I thank them for that. This motion, investigation and moment are because of their strength. While we cannot undo the past, we can honour their testimony with action, honesty and a firm commitment to justice. I urge all Members of this House to support the motion. Let us approve the establishment of the committee of investigation, not as a symbolic gesture but as a concrete step in a long journey towards justice, accountability and, ultimately, healing.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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We welcome the establishment of this commission of investigation into historical sexual abuse in schools. It is long overdue, of course. The commission must seek to acknowledge the harm done to the thousands of children in this State. We urge that the commission is carried out in a proper manner, avoids the failings of previous commissions and that it puts survivors at the very heart of everything.

I previously mentioned to the Minister some of the other survivors of mother and baby homes, for example, and the good work being carried out by the Coventry Irish Society. I am hoping the Minister can look at that again. It does specialist support work with survivors in the West Midlands. Its accommodation is inappropriate at the moment in that it is an open-plan office on the fourth or fifth floor of Eden House near the railway station in Coventry. I ask the Minister to try to find some resources in the upcoming budget so that a proper place can be put in to deal with all the services it provides, such as counselling, for the survivors all over the West Midlands.

I also wish to mention the report this morning about the CAMHS cases in Kerry. Although it is slightly tangential, it is important. There are children who have been let down negligently by the State. There are two problems. I do not believe for a second that the evidence and information are not available to publish the north Kerry report. This has been going on for three years. I do not know what is going on inside the HSE, but the information is there. We have been saying for years now that it is going to have to be opened up and that all of the north Kerry cases should be established. While the scheme is working quite well, people whose care commenced prior to 2016 are excluded from the scheme, even those people who have been given the exact same apology as the people whose treatment occurred between 2016 and 2022. People outside of the south Kerry area are also excluded from the scheme. As a result of that, there is another further injustice being done to the families and those children. What is the injustice? It is that the people who are in the scheme get €5,000 to help their case, while those outside the scheme are further punished because they have to dig into their own pockets or find €5,000 so that they can achieve justice. It is going on and on. I cannot understand it. People in the HSE cannot understand it. Why is the scheme not being opened out? I ask the Government to address this gaping injustice in the way the scheme is being operated.

To go back to the point in hand, I welcome that this is finally taking place. I know the Minister’s heart is in the right place. I am sure the commission will be established, be survivor-centred and that the justice survivors deserve will be achieved.

Michael Collins (Cork South-West, Independent Ireland Party)
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This issue has shaken public confidence and raised serious concerns about transparency and accountability in our institutions. As public representatives, we have a duty to respond not with words alone, but with action. I speak from personal experience. My aunt was severely physically abused by a teacher simply because she was considered at that time as a bit slow. That was the language used at the time. We must do better for her and for every child who still faces barriers today. Even days before her death, she spoke to me about the hurt it caused her all of her life. It does not ever go away. It is a severe hurt on people, both mentally and physically.

If we take the Grace case, we cannot allow this to be another moment of outrage followed by silence. Real change must follow. The recent Farrelly commission report on the Grace foster home abuse case has resulted in much public debate and concern. This investigation took almost ten years and cost approximately €13.6 million. It found evidence of financial abuse and a serious lack of oversight by the South-Eastern Health Board and the HSE. This report is important because it shows ongoing problems within our social care system. The findings highlight the urgent need for better oversight and accountability to protect vulnerable individuals. The public reaction to the report shows a broader demand for transparency and justice in handling cases of abuse and neglect in today’s context.

The Farrelly commission report is a stark reminder of the systemic flaws that still exist within our social care frameworks. It calls for immediate action to ensure that such failures are not repeated. The report’s revelations have prompted calls for reform to enhance the protection and care of vulnerable individuals, ensuring they receive the support they need. Moreover, the report’s findings resonate with the ongoing discussions about the importance of safeguarding vulnerable people. As we navigate through these challenges, it is crucial to prioritise the well-being of those in care or school and to implement robust measures to prevent abuse and neglect. The Farrelly commission report serves as a catalyst for change, urging policymakers and stakeholders to take decisive action to address these critical issues.

In the seconds I have, and before the Dáil rises in the next couple of days, I have urged for a debate on education. This is a huge issue, of course. Education in general is a huge issue.

On a slightly different issue, since the Minister is present, I wish to take 20 seconds to impress the issue of a second special class in Owenbeg, Sligo. Councillor Michael Clarke has asked me to raise this matter. Since April, four more eligible children have come forward in the national school. Both classes are now needed. These children deserve to learn in their own community in Owenbeg National School in Sligo near their families and peers. Denying them that right would be a step back for inclusion and well-being. I ask the Minister to consider that.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent Ireland Party)
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I wish to remember and acknowledge the late Mark Ryan who with his brother, David, was instrumental in the establishment of the scoping inquiry. There are no words for what has happened here. What was going through my head when I was coming over here is that, in this country, we commemorated 100 years of the troubles that we had. We are looking at this from 1927 to 2013.

When you look at that in context, I do not know where the words are going to come from.

I welcome this commission, I really do. Is it a little too late? Yes, it. Why does it take so long for anything in this country to come before us when wrongdoing has happened? There is inquiry after inquiry, cover-up after cover-up and people suffering. Two decades pass and somebody says something, and then it takes two more decades to happen again. Wrong has been done. How many people have died since this happened? How many people cried for help and were ignored? What scars have been inflicted on the families left behind?

I welcome the fact that inquiries such as this and others get rid of the red tape. When we know that things went wrong, we escalate matters and make sure they are dealt with. We need to start acting today, while those who caused this pain and suffering to others are alive. We cannot wait until they die or until they get too old and nothing can be done. I know the Minister is acting now, and I welcome that. Going forward, no matter what business we do, accountability is needed across the House. If we make a mistake, we have to raise our hands and own up. That goes for every inquiry that happens. There is no point in spending millions upon millions on cover-ups. Hands up and fix the problems. It is unbelievable that we went from 1927 to 2013 and that the commission is only being established in 2025.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I welcome the fact that there is going to be an investigation into the handling of child sexual abuse in schools over many years. Many lives have been destroyed as a result of the abuse people suffered in schools in this State.

I have a number of issues with the terms of reference of the commission. The definition of "child sexual abuse" provided is problematic. How that wording is used is unacceptable and is insulting to victims. It does not recognise the gravity of the crime. It is a one-dimensional definition. It leaves out the perspective of the child completely. Much sexual abuse is carried out as a result of a person seeking to have power over another individual. Will sexual abuse for the motivation of enforcing power be included in the scope of this investigation? It does not seem so under the current definition.

A child can never give consent. When sexual abuse happens, children are exploited, used, forced and coerced. We need to be careful and sensitive about the language used. We also have a problem with commissions of investigation and the time they take to make decisions and facilitate justice. The Government, in these terms of reference, is providing the commission of investigation with the ability to do the same thing over and over again. That is free rein and discretion with regard to how long the investigation can take. The Government has not set a limit in the terms of reference regarding the time it will take to do what is envisaged. That is a difficulty. So many of these investigations over the years have gone on and on. The terms of reference need to be watertight. We need to make sure that we do not have runaway timescales and multiple deadline extensions and delays.

I know for a fact that it will be many years before this investigation is going to be over. The reality is that many of the people affected will be dead by the time a decision is made. We believe there should be a permanent office of public investigation to ensure that we build capacity to do this work to a high standard and in an efficient, timely manner. The Minister is setting the timescale for this investigation to cover the period from 1927 to 2013, but she will also allow for discretion to reduce that period in respect of part of the investigation or in respect of any school.

The other aspect that I have difficulty with is that this investigation will not make any statements of fact. This is a problem. The crime of sexual abuse demands a statement of fact. Perpetrators of sexual abuse should be jailed. The Garda should be carrying out this investigation and making sure that those perpetrators are brought to justice. Unfortunately, at the end of all of this, we will not have justice for anybody in this country.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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Like others, I welcome the establishment of the commission of investigation into historical sexual abuse in all-day and boarding schools. I do in all sincerity regret that it has taken so long to move into this area and ensure that all survivors who are still alive receive acknowledgement and, hopefully, some justice. I express my personal sympathies to the survivors and all the families involved. The scoping inquiry was told, as others have mentioned, of 2,395 allegations of historical sexual abuse in day and boarding schools run by religious orders, involving 884 alleged abusers in 308 schools across all parts of the country between 1927 and 2013. The historical context has been outlined time and again, but we are very slow learners, if people will pardon the pun, when it comes to dealing with these matters.

During my first term as a TD, we had many debates on what became the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002, the Committee and Report Stages of which were debated in 2005. That legislation was passed specifically to deal with the residents of institutions, not those attending day schools, but in 2005, I tabled an amendment to include former pupils of day schools who were the victims of abuse. This was not allowed and the matter was not followed up on. Here we are 20 years later. It is a shocking, embarrassing and sad indictment of successive Governments that they let this run on for so long. We know that throughout the history of the State, the State itself, its agencies, many ordinary people, judges, gardaí and those involved in social work facilitated decades of abuse in our society, largely, but of course not exclusively, perpetrated by those in religious orders. I know the Minister was not here back in the day. It was a former Minister, Mary Hanafin. Why has it taken so long to get to this point? We will face more harrowing debates about the torture and abuse in day and boarding schools. Even though there were efforts to minimise the extent of the abuse and real efforts by religious institutions to reduce the responsibility, we have done nothing to act in respect of that.

Back in the day, I described the €12.7 million indemnity agreement with the religious orders as shameful. It was a bargain from their perspective but it was a slap in the face for the survivors. We still have not seen the framework for what will happen here with regard to compensation and just redress, but we need to proceed as quickly as possible now that the scoping inquiry has been completed. All I am asking is that all schools are included, all stories are told and that there is full transparency and full compensation. Nothing less will suffice.

Martin Daly (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the motion to establish the commission of investigation into the handling of historical child sexual abuse in both boarding schools and our schools generally. I fully support it. I pay tribute to the courage and resilience of the survivors who have campaigned on this issue. I remember the people who were abused who are not with us directly because of the abuse they suffered in silence, in a system they felt would deny them justice, vindicated in their belief by the abused who were denied justice. The scourge of child sexual abuse in these institutions was, unfortunately, pervasive, hidden and corrosive. It resulted in many blighted lives, some ending in the most tragic of circumstances.

The power of institutions, both religious and State, ensured concealment, dissimulation and deferred justice. It not only protected the abusers but moved them, placing them in new arenas of potential abuse, both here and overseas. It was a system devoid of morality that enabled evil to prosper. It permeated the thinking at the very top echelons of religious and State structures. It was an example of power corrupted, where the preservation of institutions was prioritised above all else, including the safety and well-being of children. It hollowed out the moral and ethical core of this State, which only began to re-emerge in the 1990s.

There was an imbued cultural acceptance that authority knew best and that children were not to be believed. That culture was cultivated in an active protection of institutions. The level of coverup was gargantuan, and it continued right up to the present day. While many members of religious orders, themselves often conditioned or abused, were good people, it cannot be said their good outweighed the evil that was tolerated in their midst. Diocesan schools, both primary and secondary, must also bear responsibility. This is a deep wound for many good people of faith, but it does not change the reality that these organisations have, time and again, resisted scrutiny and accountability.

The lengths some religious orders went to in protecting their financial assets has been truly monumental. The deal reached with the State in the early 2000s, viewed now with 20:20 vision of hindsight - and that is being generous - appears to have helped many institutions avoid real accountability. Even with reduced liability, many of these institutions still did not meet their obligations. It is now time to allow both psychological and emotional restitution and then financial accountability for their abusers and the institutions that shielded them.

This motion is about justice long overdue. It is acknowledging the truth, the pain, and the extraordinary courage of survivors who have spoken out. The findings of the scoping inquiry were devastating. There were thousands of allegations and hundreds of schools, and a pattern of silence and inaction that spanned generations. Behind every statistic is a person, a child, a life, forever altered. Survivors came forward not just to be heard but to ask the State to act. Today, we have taken the important step in answering that call. I fully support the Government's decision to establish a full commission of investigation with a remit that includes all types of schools. That broader scope is critical. It was a direct request from survivors, and it has been answered.

I also welcome the acceptance of nearly all of the scoping inquiry's recommendations, including a strengthened child protection system and legal reforms. The work ahead on financial redress will not be easy, but it is critical. Survivors have been clear: accountability must include those who oversaw and enabled abuse. I welcome the Government's commitment to explore every legal and constitutional mechanism to ensure that institutions are held to account and contribute meaningfully to any redress scheme.

Just as important is how we support survivors today. I commend the Government on ensuring clear information is available on how survivors can access counselling, report abuse, and seek help. Services such as One in Four and the dedicated Garda units are essential. This is not only about confronting our past; it is about safeguarding our present and shaping a just, compassionate, future where the rights of children are never again subordinated to the protection of institutions. We owe that to the survivors. We owe it to the children of today, and we must get it right.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank all Deputies. Over the past number of hours, many Deputies contributed to the debate on this motion and I want to acknowledge the constructive way in which they engaged and the input from all sides in assisting our deliberation and consideration of this motion on such a sensitive issue. It is important to see such strong support for making sure that accountability, which is rightly sought by survivors via the commission of investigation, is delivered. This is an issue of profound importance to our society. This is an issue that impacts every single person, whether you are an individual who has experienced sexual abuse or whether you are somebody who has children, grandchildren, nieces, or nephews going to school. It is so important that our response is clear, strong and acknowledges what happened in the past but it is important that we collectively commit to doing everything we possibly can to ensure it can never happen again.

The abuse, and the sexual abuse of a child, is the most egregious breach of trust we can think of. I am not sure words can describe this happening to a child. It is the most difficult type of crime for us to respond to and for it to happen in a setting where children should be safe, where children should be protected and where children should be cared for by those who are in positions of power requires the most serious response from Government - one that learns from the past and improves for the future. It is our duty as adults to protect, to care for, to nurture and to shelter children and it is our duty as legislators to respond. That is what this commission is intended to do.

It is so important we ensure the power to compel witnesses and to compel documents is part of the terms of reference and the commission's work, so we get the answers we all need to see. The commission will investigate the handling of concerns of child sexual abuse. It is important to say there will be findings of fact. We are not trying to replace a court of law. We are not trying to replace the work of An Garda Síochána but there will be very clear findings here into the handling of concerns of historical child sexual abuse.

There were many questions from colleagues on the Garda and its work. If we look at No. 10 of the terms of reference, it states that the commission will exercise its discretion regarding ongoing procedures. It will meet its obligations regarding reporting of information to appropriate authorities. Already the cases that arose in the survivor engagement process have been referred to Tusla and An Garda Síochána for further review where necessary. I know from my previous role and from speaking to the Garda Commissioner that in respect of the work published last September, many more people came forward to the Garda. The work here will never interfere with or prevent survivors from going to the Garda and will never prevent the Garda from ensuring, through the courts, those responsible can be held accountable.

What we will explore here, and what we will report on, is the handling of concerns of historical sexual abuse because we know this happened. We do not have to debate in this Chamber whether sexual abuse happened in our schools. It happened. What we have to investigate here is why happened, how did it happen, how was it let happen for so long, how did those who were in positions of power allow this to happen, what did they know, when did they know it, why did they not respond, why was their response not to go to An Garda Síochána or to anybody else and why was their response to move people from one school to the next, so they could continue this horrific sexual abuse. We have to make sure all of this information is known and is reported on by the commission of investigation.

I understand this has been a very difficult and very long journey for many people. There are those who are not here to see us get to this point. That is why it is so important we have a time limit on this. I want to stress that any suggestion the two-year report is an opportunity for the commission to come forward to say it needs more time and wants to extend it, and that it can do so on multiple occasions, is the reason we are putting a five-year limit on this. What must be set out clearly in the two-year report is that if the commission feels it is not on track for the five years, it must amend its work to make sure it comes in within that five-year period. We cannot have a situation where survivors, who have waited decades in some instances to get to this point, are left waiting further decades or further years. We are very clear on that and that is why the terms of reference set out very clearly that this must be completed within a five-year period.

The following might help or assist in answering the question on around physical abuse and why it was not included. I absolutely acknowledge the physical abuse people suffered in our schools - the criminal acts that happened in our schools. This cannot be under the banner of corporal punishment. There were people physically assaulted and brutally assaulted in our schools. So often that came hand in hand with sexual abuse. However, the scoping inquiry was clear in its remit that it needed to look at sexual abuse in our schools. It was very clear that if we were to get the answers survivors are absolutely entitled to, we must stick within that remit. That is not in any way to diminish or to not respond to the very serious challenges and the very serious crimes that were committed where children were brutally and viciously assaulted. The terms of reference have been very clear that if we are to get the answers survivors are absolutely entitled to within a time period that is acceptable to anybody here, then we need to stick within those terms of reference.

The commission is a significant step towards accountability. I acknowledge that this is a long journey for many, but further work is being done in parallel as regards redress. Colleagues raised the issue of redress. I am determined that there will be financial accountability for survivors. In response to that, however, we need to do more work in order for survivors to get the accountability to which they are entitled. That is why we have not accepted that specific recommendation to allow it to progress immediately with the commission of investigation. More work is needed to understand exactly what assets are being held by religious orders and institutions, including financial resources and other resources. This work is also needed to understand if there are other mechanisms and levers that are needed to make sure that those responsible for these types of crimes are the ones who pay toward a redress scheme. There was a very clear request by many of the survivors that the institutions, religious orders and those responsible for these crimes and for covering them up be the ones who pay for it. That is why this separate body of work is happening. I am really clear here. In other instances, redress schemes have not happened until after a commission of investigation has taken place. I want this work to start now in order that we are not waiting five years before we even start looking at a redress scheme. They will happen in parallel. I am committed, as I think all colleagues in this House are, to working toward making sure those who are responsible pay financially.

My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, made specific mention of the findings of the scoping inquiry regarding the sexual abuse of children in special schools. It was such an egregious breach of trust among some of our most vulnerable citizens and was absolutely abhorrent. I echo the Minister of State's words on the importance of inclusivity in the commission and ensuring that the voices of those who may not have been heard are facilitated. Many colleagues have raised the issue of making sure that every single person can have access to this commission of inquiry, whether it is the initial survey that will be done in the coming months, the engagement through the survivor engagement programme or through the inquiry itself. The terms of reference are very clear that there will be:

(a) clear communication and transparency, allowing survivors to make informed choices as to whether to engage with the Commission;

(b) support for survivors at key stages of the process, [that means] emotional and psychological support, and support for those with additional needs to facilitate an accessible and inclusive process wherever possible;

[...]

(d) practical steps to mitigate risks of retraumatisation, [as was raised by our colleagues in the Labour Party] in consultation with survivors and relevant expert advice.

It is very clear, and having engaged with the chairperson, he is clear that any engagement will be accessible to every single person. I stress that all of these terms of reference have been developed with the support of the Attorney General. Making sure the process is victim-centred and human rights-focused has been a priority for the Attorney General and for all of us involved.

In terms of memorialisation, the scoping inquiry found that there was no one agreed position as to how we ensure that what happened in the past would not be forgotten. The work of the commission will assist in that by feeding into what memorialisation looks like in the future.

Members raised the fact that the commission may consider information from the survivor engagement programme and the fact that this should be part and parcel of the investigation. It is really important for any person who comes forward who does not want to be known and wants his or her contribution to be anonymous that we do not in any way link the programme and the commission by saying that people who come forward will be part of the inquiry. It is really important that survivors can participate in the survivor engagement process in a confidential way. The information that will be provided will feed into and will be part of the overall objective and overall approach taken by the commission.

I thank colleagues for their contributions and support on the establishment of this commission of investigation. I will finish how I started, through commending and thanking survivors, because we would not be here without them. I particularly thank David, who is here in the Gallery, and his brother Mark, who cannot be with us here today. Without his and David's brave words and actions, we would not be establishing this commission of investigation and so many others would not have the chance to make sure their voices and stories are heard. Most importantly, as a Government and as a society, due to those actions, we now have an opportunity to do everything we can to ensure something like this can never happen in our schools again. I thank my colleagues and look forward to working with them. I wish the commission well in its work.