John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)

I acknowledge the input of Mark and David Ryan in highlighting all the issues we are discussing. It was harrowing to listen to everything that was said in the context of their case. Their work has informed the public and us as legislators.

Like Deputy Connolly, I do not have much hope in what the State is setting about to do. I say that because I watched the Grace case very closely and what was asked of the inquiry. I saw the terms of reference being changed within minutes on the floor of the House because they were recognised as inadequate. The Minister of State at the time, Finian McGrath, came back with a new set of recommendations. Even that did not serve the inquiry well. We saw what happened with the report. We still do not know that much about Grace or the 47 others, who we seemed to wipe from the record. It is an appalling carry-on by a government.

Abuse has gone on in schools and institutions in this State for far too long. The people now moving into their middle and senior years who are known to have been abused have carried the mental stress of that throughout life. Their lives have been destroyed and they have had little or no support from the religious orders concerned or, indeed, the State.

I accompanied a victim of this abuse to meet with representatives of the religious order that was in charge of the school he attended. He was offered three sessions with a counsellor. This man experienced horrific abuse and his life was ruined. He came back to the State from America to resolve things and met nothing but obstacles to his telling his story and getting recognition for what happened to him. The fact the religious order recognised he was abused and then offered three sessions of counselling is, in itself, an indication of how reluctant the orders are to accept responsibility for what happened in their schools.

I recently met a group of people in Kilkenny, all of whom attended the same school and discovered each other by chance. They had not told their partners what happened to them. They had hidden the trauma, grief and sadness in their history from their husbands, wives and families. Now they are telling their stories and they are experiencing huge obstacles in the way of their being recognised for what happened to them. They have no access to counselling other than by paying for it themselves. They are now realising again that their lives were ruined and they have not enjoyed life as they might have expected, whether they are single or married with a family. That is something the State must consider.

I agree with the point made earlier that when a process like this is started, the compensation must run alongside the process. We need the support and counselling services, and any other service that may be required, running alongside the process the Minister is proposing. We must ensure that whatever the circumstances, should anyone who has been sexually abused raise a concern about any aspect of his or her life or current care, that person must be listened to. It is not good enough that the State might listen, learn and then attempt to provide compensation or attempt to address the issues while leaving those who have been really badly sexually abused to live further in that sadness. That must be addressed. Without doing it that way, we are simply creating further trauma for the victims who are attempting to address the issues.

I started by telling the House about the man who came home from America. He is still here trying to address those issues. He has informed the Garda and the religious orders. He has done everything one would expect of someone who had this type of horrific story to tell. Yet, everyone has turned their back on him. He is not the only one.

There is a history of this type of abuse. We know this went on in our schools. We know what happened with the Grace case, which was a different thing. We know that those who are engaged currently with Tusla are experiencing the same obstacles being put in their way when they, as parents, try to protect their children who are saying they have been abused. Those parents are saying they have gone to Tusla only to become the victims of the system. They are being pushed around and made to feel they are the ones guilty of something.

We have seen the courts not deal with issues like this. We have seen some of the settlements ex parte. I met separately with six families recently who tell the same story, with all the same detail. They are not getting justice.

I do not know for how long the State can continue to ignore this type of abuse and wait for it to be dealt with in another 20-plus years' time. We must look constantly to address the issues that are affecting these people's lives. We have to be understanding that this is a huge issue. If not, we will be standing here again in a few years' time addressing Tusla and the abuse of children.

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