Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I hope the Minister will withdraw his amendment killing this Bill and support it as it stands. We ask those on the Government benches to also support this Bill as it would do what all parties agree needs to be done and bring RTÉ under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I have read the media reports that the media Minister, Deputy Patrick O’Donovan, has outlined to his Government colleagues that it is his opinion that this Bill does not go as far as the Government’s proposed legislation and, therefore, the Private Members’ Bill will be opposed. I have read the media reports that his view is that our proposal differs from the approach by the Government in two substantive ways. First, he believes it does not provide for the accountability of the director general of RTÉ to the Committee of Public Accounts for RTÉ’s financial statements or value-for-money matters. If that were proposed as an amendment, we would support it.

His other objection is that it does not allow the RTÉ board the discretion to appoint a regulated private sector auditor in addition to the Comptroller and Auditor General. I would ask whether this matters. The external auditors that RTÉ had for decades did not expose or uncover any of the financial scandals or irregularities that we now know were common in RTÉ. Their ineptitude was exposed at the Committee of Public Accounts and the media committee in 2023 and 2024. RTÉ spent a whole lot of public money on these external audits for a whole lot of box-ticking and nothing else. We then had auditors’ reports on the previous auditors’ reports, or special examinations done to see why so many things were missed. This is simply throwing good money after bad. TG4 was audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General during this time and did not have the financial irregularities that RTÉ had. Again, I am not sure why the Minister would insist on a duplication of work.

This is a simple Bill that does one thing we all agree needs to happen: bring RTÉ under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I do not understand why the Minister wants to delay that. I hope that his response gives a detailed reasoning as to why he would purposely delay RTÉ coming under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Minister’s alternate Bill is 93 pages long and includes 31 heads of Bill. I am not here to dig into the technicalities of it or nit-pick at the minutia of the proposed Government Bill. I am not here to oppose it, tear it down or have a go at the Minister on its content. I am not here to rubbish it because it was not my idea. I am sure there are many aspects of it that we in the Sinn Féin Party would happily support. I know we would positively contribute to its passage through the various Stages. However, the reality is that that would be a long time from now and possibly anything up to two years.

The Bill we are putting forward today passed First Stage on Tuesday, 27 February 2024. The Bill was not opposed by the Government and there was no debate. We all agreed that this needed to be done. We moved to introduce this Bill in the face of Government inaction on the RTÉ debacle. Even the former RTÉ chairwoman, Siún Ní Raghallaigh, stated that the then media Minister, Catherine Martin, had a “hands-off” approach in relation to the national broadcaster. She also stated that she would like to see RTÉ under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Government had a year of evidence that RTÉ needed to be brought under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General but it did not act.

In 2023 and 2024, the media committee and the Committee of Public Accounts examined the running of RTÉ. The flip-flops may have generated the headlines but the under-the-table payments to RTÉs top star at the time, misleadingly labelled as consultancy fees, and the nonsense reasons given, exposed the misuse of the barter account. RTÉ used this separate account outside of its main financial statements to record transactions that involved goods and services exchanged for advertising. Cash payments from the barter account resulted in a punishing 35% additional cost yet the Government did not move to change anything. The complete dereliction of duty and responsibility from RTÉ executives was laid bare for months, for the nation to see, yet the Government did not move to change anything.

After reading back on the debates when this Bill was introduced last year, I was reminded of the contribution by my party colleague, Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh, that in the midst of the hearings, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, in the Minister's seat, categorically ruled out the Comptroller and Auditor General taking control of RTÉ in light of the events happening at the time. In March 2024, the Committee of Public Accounts recommended that the Government bring RTÉ back under the statutory remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General so RTÉ would become accountable to the committee, which can examine and report to Dail Éireann on the annual accounts of designated public bodies following audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Based on the evidence before it, the committee believed that decisions taken by RTÉ demonstrated a lack of rigorous financial controls, poor communication and little transparency, and amounted to a failure of governance which, combined, had damaged public trust in an organisation for which trust should be paramount. Yet again, the Government did not move to change anything.

We in Sinn Féin knew that something had to be done. In the face of Government inaction, and with more and more mismanagement of public moneys at RTÉ being exposed, we wrote this Bill and submitted it to the Bills Office. Then, in October 2024, that Government, which is essentially the same as this Government, with the Green Party then instead of the Lowry group now, announced its intention to introduce its own Bill. That was eight months after this Bill passed First Stage in the Dáil. This week, the Minister sent his general scheme of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill to the joint committee on communications, culture, arts, sport and media for pre-legislative scrutiny, which will conclude in September. It could be two years after we introduced this Bill before his Bill will get to the same stage. I do not think this House has the time to see a duplication of work on bringing RTÉ under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General, particularly when we all agree on what needs to happen.

There are 1,000 things the committee on sport, arts, media and communication could be working on instead of examining that particular aspect of the Government Bill, which will do what this Bill already does. We could use those hours to examine the RTÉ €3.6 million write-down on a failed IT system. We could be digging into RTÉ's history of bogus self-employment and what resolving that will mean for the national broadcaster's finances. We could use those hours to examine the Arts Council’s accounts and look at the €6.7 million spent on an abandoned IT system project, or the National Gallery’s purchase of an unused scanner costing almost €125,000, or whatever is the next financial scandal that will arise under this Government. If there is one thing we have learned recently, it is that there probably will be another financial scandal.

Anyone who knows me knows I want to work in collaboration with people around me for the greater good. If we did not have this Bill already before the House and ready to move to Second Stage, I would be happy to wait for the Government’s Bill. The 1990 Broadcasting Act, introduced by the Fianna Fáil Minister, Ray Burke, allowed RTÉ to appoint its own auditors instead of the Comptroller and Auditor General having oversight. We can undo that wrong today. Let us not drag our feet. Let us not duplicate our work and waste this House’s time and the committee’s time going over old ground. Let us work collaboratively and move this Bill forward now.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann declines to give a second reading to the Broadcasting (Oversight of RTÉ Accounts) (Amendment) Bill 2024, on the grounds that a general scheme achieving the same policy objective has been referred to the relevant Oireachtas Committee for pre-legislative scrutiny.".

Cuirim fáilte roimh an deis seo labhairt le Dáil Éireann ar an mBille seo. I dtosach báire ba mhaith liom aitheantas a thabhairt don méid oibre atá déanta ag an Teachta Ó Snodaigh ar an mBille. I acknowledge the work of Deputy Ó Snodaigh in preparing this Bill and of Deputy Byrne in proposing it today.

The reassignment of the Comptroller and Auditor General as auditor of RTÉ is something that has broad support across the House. It was one of the key recommendations made in the review of governance and culture in RTÉ prepared by the expert advisory committee chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan. In May last year, the Government decided to accept in principle all of the recommendations of that review. In October last year, the general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill was published so it is not the case that nothing was done. The general scheme gives effect to all of the legislative recommendations of the expert advisory committee, including the assignment of the Comptroller and Auditor General as auditor of RTÉ.

The programme for Government commits to enacting new legislation to ensure that the corporate governance model in RTÉ is open, transparent and appropriate to its public service mandate. In line with this commitment, last month, the Government approved the publication of a revised general scheme, which retains the totality of the initial general scheme while also providing for additional measures to ensure that the responsibilities of RTÉ as a public service media provider reflect the level of public funding provided to it. The general scheme represents the most comprehensive set of reforms to the governance and regulation of public service media since the Broadcasting Act 2009. It will enhance accountability, transparency and value for money not just in RTÉ but also in TG4, as our public service media providers, and establish a new statutory framework to support the provision of public service content by the wider media sector.

The assignment of the Comptroller and Auditor General is a key, but not the only, provision in reforming the legislative underpinning for corporate governance in RTÉ. In line with the recommendations of the expert advisory committee on governance and culture, the general scheme also strengthens the functions and duties of the boards of both RTÉ and TG4 and expands the functions, duties and accountability of both directors general. In particular, the boards of both public service media providers will be required to hold their respective directors general to account for their management of the organisations. This reflects the recommendations and findings of the expert committee on governance and culture in respect of the relationship between the board and executive in the lead-up to the payments scandal.

Earlier this month, I referred the general scheme for pre-legislative scrutiny to the Oireachtas committee with responsibility for media policy.

I understand that the matter was considered at the first meeting of the Oireachtas committee on 14 May and that officials from my Department briefed the committee yesterday on the general scheme. It will be entirely at the discretion of the committee to decide how long it spends on that. If there is any great sense of urgency, there is no reason it should take two years. It is entirely in the hands of the committee to deal with this. The committee can sit as many times a week as it wants. If it wants to discuss any issue, however many meetings it wants to hold, there will be no hindrance. It is unfair to my officials to suggest my Department will somehow hamper other investigations. That is not the case, as was spelled out to the committee yesterday.

Given that the general scheme, including the provisions relating to the Comptroller and Auditor General, is currently before the Oireachtas committee, I propose that this Private Members' Bill be declined a Second Reading by the House. I do not see the merit in bringing forward separate elements of the reforms contained in the general scheme in stand-alone Bills. Were this Private Members' Bill to pass Second Stage, it would be referred to the same Oireachtas committee now considering the general scheme for scrutiny before it could progress to Committee Stage. This would appear to be duplicative in the extreme.

There are two substantive differences between the Bill being considered today and the general scheme undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny. First, the Bill does not provide for the accountability of the director general of RTÉ to the Committee of Public Accounts for RTE’s accounts, value-for-money matters or any other matters that may be addressed in a special report prepared by the Comptroller and Auditor General. This is a standard but nonetheless necessary provision in legislation governing State bodies, as it identifies the officer in the body accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts and the nature of that accountability.

The general scheme also provides expressly for the accountability of the directors general of both RTÉ and TG4 to the Committee of Public Accounts. In doing so, it is extending that accountability to the director general of RTÉ and expanding the current provisions relating to the accountability of the director general of TG4.

Let us recall that the Committee of Public Accounts required a specific motion of Dáil Éireann in July 2023 to enable it to examine the presenter payment issues and related governance failings that arose in RTÉ. It is absolutely necessary that the director general of RTÉ be directly accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts. That is not part of the Deputy's Bill, however. While an audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General has significant teeth, accountability to the Committee of Public Accounts adds a further level of transparency and ensures that the people's elected representatives can scrutinise the chief executive officers of public bodies which are, after all, ultimately owned by the people.

The second substantive difference between the general scheme and this Bill is that the Bill will remove the discretion of RTÉ's board to appoint a regulated private sector auditor. In contrast, the general scheme provides the RTÉ board with the authority to appoint a regulated private sector audit firm to carry out an annual audit, in addition to the mandatory annual audit to be carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General. This practice has been adopted in the university sector and in respect of the only other commercial State body subject to a Comptroller and Auditor General audit, Uisce Éireann. In this context, it is also important to note that, under the Companies Act 2014, at least one of RTÉ's active trading subsidiaries will continue to require an audit by a regulated private sector audit firm. In particular, it is highly likely that RTÉ's subsidiary which manages the transmission network, 2RN, will continue to require a regulated private sector auditor in the coming years given its size. The Bill throws up a clear anomaly in that this would not be allowed and there would be effectively no audit of 2RN.

The key similarity between the general scheme and the proposed Bill is that both appoint the Comptroller and Auditor General as auditor of RTÉ. This will have two effects. First, the Comptroller and Auditor General will carry out an audit of RTÉ’s annual accounts and, second, the Comptroller and Auditor General will have the discretion to carry out value-for-money examinations of RTÉ.

The expert advisory committee on governance and culture in RTÉ emphasised that the Comptroller and Auditor General has a more expansive role than a regulated private sector auditor. In particular, the expert advisory committee referred to value-for-money considerations. The special reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General have been vital in recent years in focusing on issues ranging from individual property transactions and procurement to financial governance and reporting standards. The reports continue to drive change and reform across in a number of public bodies.

The national counter-disinformation strategy, published last month, emphasised the importance of a trustworthy information environment in the context of growing disinformation, both in Ireland and internationally. In this context, trust in public service media as a reliable source of information is more important than ever. Trust, as we know, must be earned and maintained. While the assignment of the Comptroller and Auditor General is certainly one mechanism that will build trust, it will not in itself build and restore public trust in RTÉ. That is why I have brought forward a general scheme which contains a comprehensive set of reforms to improve transparency, accountability and value for money in the public service media providers.

I have already mentioned the changes to the legislative basis for corporate governance in RTÉ and TG4, including the strengthened role and duties of the board and accountability of the directors general to the board. These changes are not happening in a vacuum; they are designed to copper-fasten and underpin the reforms being implemented by the new leadership in RTÉ, both at board and executive level.

In terms of value for money, the assessment of the Comptroller and Auditor General is, as set out in law, ex postand focused primarily on financial procedures and the economy and efficiency of processes and procedures. That is why the general scheme also significantly strengthens the role of Coimisiún na Mean as the independent regulator of our public service media providers, something the Bill before the House does not do.

Currently, RTÉ and TG4 set their own performance commitments on an annual basis. To enhance accountability and ensure value for money can be assessed, the general scheme provides that Coimisiún na Mean will ultimately identify the performance commitments of RTÉ and TG4. This will augment and strengthen public trust in our public service media providers. This also is not covered by the Bill.

Coimisiún na Meán will also continue to assess the funding needs of RTÉ and TG4, but will do this every three years instead of every five. To enhance the transparency of this process, it will carry out its work in accordance with a published methodology. As part of this, the regulator will identify performance commitments and outputs and associated financial inputs. It will also ensure that state aid rules are observed to prevent overcompensation of our public service media providers. This means that any funding recommendation sent to Government by Coimisiún na Meán will set out the net cost to RTÉ and TG4 of fulfilling their public service remit but not more than this. As I said in the media, this is more far-reaching than the Bill before the House.

Ultimately, the objective of the general scheme is to create a public service media that is trusted and trustworthy, holds power to account and is accountable. The Bill features one important component of the measures necessary to achieve this. However, as I have set out, we must approach the reform of our public service media in a far more comprehensive and cohesive manner, not through piecemeal reform measures. The general scheme currently undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny in an Oireachtas committee will achieve that. I see no reason the Oireachtas committee would have to delay it. If the Deputy wishes to progress it further through pre-legislative scrutiny, we would welcome that. I look forward to working with the committee and the Deputies to bring the general scheme through that pre-legislative scrutiny.

For these reasons, I consider that this Private Members' Bill should be declined a Second Reading.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. I also thank Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Byrne for doing so much work on the Bill beforehand.

I have come to the House to offer a welcome and support. I have not yet had the opportunity to see the details of the general scheme but, taking the Government at its word, it certainly seems like what the Minister has done in the first number of months in his role is positive in terms of steps towards accountability and transparency.

From where I sit, I see both sides, and ultimately all sides, of the House trying to get to the same destination but maybe looking at the issue in different ways in terms of the pathway to reach that destination. I see merits in both pathways. If the Minister could provide Members with details of the general scheme, that would be very relevant. We want to avoid a situation similar to the one that came to pass last year arising again.

Like Deputy Byrne, I sit on the Committee of Public Accounts. We see the importance of that committee as the mechanism for achieving real accountability for the expenditure of public funds.

I understand the merits of what the Minister said about not giving the Bill a Second Reading and maybe with more detail, we could support that position. I commend the Deputies and Sinn Féin.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I dtús báire, gabhaim buíochas le mo chomhghleacaí, an Teachta Joanna Byrne, as an mBille seo agamsa a chur chun cinn. Is í a shínigh é agus atá ag tógáil ceisteanna chun tosaigh maidir leis na meáin chumarsáide thar cheann an pháirtí.

The Committee of Public Accounts stated it believed "decisions taken by RTÉ demonstrate a lack of rigorous financial controls, poor communication, little transparency and amount to a failure of governance which combined have damaged public trust in an organisation for which trust should be paramount." Some of that statement was reflected by the Minister earlier. The statement was made by the Committee of Public Accounts following its investigation into RTÉ which exposed the use of a secret barter account outside its regular financial control; the understatement of published earnings and underwriting of additional payments to presenters: scandal surrounding obscene salaries, allowances, junkets, resignations, exit packages, the use of contractors and bogus self-employment; significant financial losses; and a lack of scrutiny revolving around the shambles that was Toy Show The Musical.

Everyone in the Government was wringing their hands over these scandals but my colleagues in Sinn Féin and I got to work straight away, submitting the Broadcasting (Oversight of RTÉ Accounts) (Amendment) Bill to the Bills Office way back in July 2023, almost two years ago. If all that waste of money was not bad enough, things got worse. In the two years since, the Government has not produced its own legislation. RTÉ's director general, Kevin Bakhurst, is reported as telling people in private as far back as February of last year that the broadcaster would be bankrupt overnight if it fully compensated wronged workers for their bogus self-employment. This is a serious and incredible assertion that was not made known during the reviews, committee hearings and investigations at the time.

Only this month, we have learned about the €3.6 million write-off of a failed IT scheme which aimed to deliver a new HR system for RTÉ. This multimillion euro waste was not made known during the reviews or committee investigations either. In fact, RTÉ told the expert advisory committee review into contractors' fees, HR and other matters that a modern and fit-for-purpose HR system would begin to be rolled out from 2024. The board had already discussed the failed HR system in 2023. We now know that RTÉ did not ultimately proceed with the HR modules. I do not know whether RTÉ lied to the review. What else has been hidden?

In the midst of all this cloak and dagger stuff, these smokescreens and drip-feeding of information, there was no indication that the culture at RTÉ had changed. The Government then agreed to use €725 million of taxpayers' money to bail out RTÉ. The least the public could expect from us is that we would regulate for independent oversight of how that money is being spent and how money was spent in the past. The Comptroller and Auditor General's mission is "to provide independent assurance that public funds and resources are used in accordance with the law, managed to good effect and properly accounted for". The Comptroller and Auditor General used to have this role in respect of RTÉ but the former Fianna Fáil Minister, Ray Burke, who was convicted of tax fraud, removed that oversight power with the Broadcasting Act 1990, leaving RTÉ free to arrange its own auditing through private contractors, who have consistently failed to spot the unjustifiable waste of public moneys. Ahead of the changes he made through the Broadcasting Act, Ray Burke is reported to have said "I'm going to fucking screw RTÉ". That was at a time when he felt aggrieved by RTÉ election coverage as it related to him. This shows why politicians should not have control over the funding of a national broadcaster. He continued on and RTÉ was screwed over but the Act also forced habits to form within RTÉ that were probably reflected in recent years because of a cap on the funding that could be raised through advertising. When RTÉ breached that advertising cap, it put the money into an escrow account, hiding it away from the Minister of the time. I believe this led to people setting about some of the scandals we have seen since.

This Bill aims to correct all that by making it so that RTÉ is not in charge of its own auditing. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have opposed the Bill. We know that from today. The then Minister for public expenditure, Deputy Donohoe, said in 2024 that the Comptroller and Auditor General should not have power to audit RTÉ. We introduced this Bill on First Stage. The Committee of Public Accounts recommended on a cross-party basis that RTÉ should come under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The chairperson of the RTÉ board, Siún Ní Raghallaigh, also recommended that RTÉ be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General before she was effectively and unceremoniously sacked on live television by the Minister for media during the term of the previous Dáil, Catherine Martin. The expert advisory committee review into governance and culture at RTÉ then recommended that RTÉ should come under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Minister for media, Catherine Martin, then announced that RTÉ would come under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. With all of this flip-flopping, the Government must have got some free flip-flops from RTÉ.

Two weeks ago, the new Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, who was here earlier, said in respect of this legislation "We have beaten the Deputy to it because RTÉ has been put under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General". He obviously did not understand that producing the heads of a Bill is not the same thing as enacting law. I do not know whether he meant to mislead or if he just does not understand how this works. The Government's excuse is that there is no point in passing this Bill because the Bill whose general scheme has been produced will achieve the same objective and go further. As others have mentioned, this general scheme is 93 pages long. I have read it. I dealt with it yesterday. I thank the officials who came before the committee yesterday to explain some of the details. It is quite wide-ranging.

I do not expect it to be passed as quickly as the Minister seems to think it will be. It has already taken six months to get to this point because it is so wide-ranging. This is the second general scheme and we do not know whether there will be a third. The committee has been given an extension of time up to the first week in September to scrutinise the general scheme. The Minister seems to be indicating that the committee should have all the time in the world. Although we do not want to act according to the timetable he has set out, we would like an additional fortnight to get through the work and to liaise and consult those who will be affected by the general scheme. That is an ask of the Minister. Even that would delay the production of the legislation until October. That does not include passage on Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth Stages in this Chamber and in the Seanad. Deputy Byrne mentioned earlier that this could be a long time coming and that RTÉ would not fall under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General for a number of years. That is a possibility. I looked over at the Minister when Deputy Byrne said that and he smirked, but it is a possibility. That is what happens when you have an omnibus Bill - timetables move.

We want to make sure that, come next year, RTÉ will be under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The other points the Government has flagged in its general scheme are welcome. We do not oppose those changes. We are saying we should pass this simple legislation to make sure that, from its enactment, RTÉ will come under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This Bill, as presented, is simple and we should pass it as quickly as possible. As I have said, we can address this in a simple way and quickly.

Faoin mBille seo, beidh na rialacha céanna i gceist do RTÉ agus atá ann cheana féin do TG4. D'fhéadfadh RTÉ a lán rudaí a fhoghlaim ó TG4, a dhéanann cláir d'ardchaighdeán a chraoladh go rialta in ainneoin nach bhfuil ach pinginí caite ina threo i gcomparáid le RTÉ agus in ainneoin go ndéanann sé ár dteanga náisiúnta mionlaigh a chur chun tosaigh i gcónaí. Ní raibh aon fhadhb riamh ag TG4 i dtaobh airgeadais toisc go dtagann sé faoin Comptroller and Auditor General cheana féin. Bhí an tuiscint sin ann nuair a bunaíodh é ag an tús. Tá gá leis an reachtaíocht seo a reáchtáil chomh tapa agus is féidir chun a dhéanamh cinnte de go bhfuil na fadhbanna atá ann faoi láthair, agus a bheidh ann amach anseo mura tarlaíonn sé seo go tapa, leigheasta. Tá an deis ag an Rialtas bogadh de réir seo agus an leasú atá aige a tharraingt siar ag an staid seo.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I ask Deputies to be mindful of mentioning people who are not in the Chamber in their speeches.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge the work of Deputy Ó Snodaigh in preparing this Bill and Deputy Byrne for proposing it today. Those in RTÉ have wantonly squandered the public moneys with which they have been entrusted. They have spent money lavishly entertaining themselves. They have spent the money of ordinary people on flip-flops for themselves. RTÉ has paid so-called stars obscene salaries based on the tall tale that broadcasters abroad were knocking the door down to secure the talent in RTÉ. When rocked by scandal, which seems to be a quarterly occurrence these days, RTÉ pays lip service to accountability. Lessons need to be learned as soon as possible. It is the same sorry mantra all the time, the one near certainty being that the organisation will be knocked by scandal anew in the period ahead.

What I find particularly galling about the station's practices is that while spending recklessly on itself, it was operating as a rogue employer and taking money out of the pockets of its workers through the practice of bogus self-employment. This is something we want to investigate at the Committee of Public Accounts. As a new member of that committee, I want to ensure this happens. Bogus self-employment should not happen anywhere in our country. RTÉ misspent taxpayers' money, on the one hand, and denied payments due under the Social Insurance Fund, on the other. It also denied staff their holiday pay and pensions and then had the gall to drag out the fight against those who were simply seeking what it had immorally denied them.

It is right that this Bill should proceed as soon as possible. It is wrong that the Government will oppose it, particularly as RTÉ receives significant public money and has displayed woeful stewardship of that money. I again ask that RTÉ should be accountable to the Comptroller and Auditor General. It should be brought before the Committee of Public Accounts. The Oireachtas has mandated this responsibility to ensure that we have efficiency as regards our public expenditure. I ask the Minister of State to do this as soon as possible to ensure we have no more scandals.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy. That concludes the list of speakers. We come back to the Minister of State.

Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their contributions. As the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, stated at the beginning of the debate, the assignment of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General as auditor of RTÉ has broad support across the House. It is one of the key recommendations of the expert advisory committee on governance and culture in RTÉ chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan. The programme for Government is clear that legislation is required to ensure the corporate governance model in RTÉ is open, transparent and appropriate to its public service mandate. As the Minister outlined, this goes further than the assignment of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill, which was published last month, sets out a range of corporate governance and regulatory reforms, including strengthening the role and the duties of the boards of RTÉ and TG4, and the accountability of both directors general to their boards.

With regard to the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General, there are two substantive differences between the general scheme and the Bill before the House. First, the general scheme provides for the express accountability of the director general to the Committee of Public Accounts. We can all attest to the value of the work done by the committee to hold RTÉ to account in the summer of 2023. It is important there is no doubt about the responsibility of the directors general as persons accountable to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts to discuss both the annual financial statements of the public service media providers and, crucially, the value-for-money matters.

The second key difference between this proposed Bill and the general scheme is that the latter provides the RTÉ board with the authority to appoint a regulated private sector audit to carry out an annual audit in addition to that of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Given RTÉ's still large percentage of commercial income, this is an important consideration. More broadly, the general scheme is wider in scope than the Bill, addressing not only corporate governance but also the way in which the independent regulator, Coimisiún na Meán, assesses the performance of the public service media providers and makes funding recommendations to the Government. For example, under the proposed reforms RTÉ and TG4 will no longer set their own performance commitments. Instead they will be identified by Coimisiún na Meán. This is an important measure to promote accountability.

The national counter-disinformation strategy published last month clearly sets out the challenges to our democracy posed by disinformation. In light of these challenges, trusted public service media producing independent factual and impartial journalism is more important than ever. As we saw in July 2023, that trust can easily be lost. One of the key objectives of the general scheme is to create a public service media that is trusted and transparent. It is intended to copper-fasten and to underpin many of the reforms already under way in RTÉ, which have been led by a new team at board and executive level.

The best approach to reforming public service media is in as comprehensive and cohesive a manner as possible. The general scheme achieves that. Therefore, while agreeing with the Deputies' intentions, I am of the view that the Bill should be declined a Second Reading and that we should instead work together to pass comprehensive reforming legislation.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State and call on the proposer of the Bill, Deputy Joanna Byrne.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachtaí who contributed. I thank the Minister and Minister of State for their responses.

While I appreciate everything we received from the Minister and Minister of State this evening, there is a simple thing being lost with regard to the Bill that has been presented. The Bill simply puts RTÉ accounts under the oversight of the Comptroller and Auditor General. There is no need to lump this one simple change in with an omnibus Bill that includes the transposition of the European Media Freedom Act, the implementation of the Future of Media Commission recommendations and the one-man crusade of the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, against allowing Coimisiún na Meán impose a levy on Netflix and other multinational streaming corporations that would benefit Ireland's film-making sector. We can address all of those proposals as part of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill. We can address this one simple proposal right now if there is the political will to do it. If we all agree that RTÉ should be under the oversight of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and I have heard nobody disagree, then we can pass this Bill into law without delay in order that the Comptroller and Auditor General can get to work right away in making sure RTÉ's accounts are in order.

I questioned the Comptroller and Auditor General on this matter at last week's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts in response to some comments made here on the floor of the House to the effect that he had beaten me to it and that this was a revenue train. I got clarity from both the clerk to the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General that this is not the case and might not be for some time. I am not entirely sure if the Minister understands his own timelines. He said earlier that it was May of last year when he initiated legislation and brought it forward slightly in announcements made in October. However, it was actually only this week that general scheme of his amendment Bill has brought forward.

Despite all the goodwill in the world, these things inevitably take time. The Government's opposition to the Bill before the House and its efforts to delay the move to place RTÉ under the aegis of the Comptroller and Auditor General only enable further bad governance, another free for all and more squandering of money. If we are all singing from the same hymn sheet, I do not understand why there would be any reluctance to progress the Bill. We all want the same thing. This represents step one when it comes to the bigger picture, and the rest could be done by means of the Bill the Minister is going to introduce.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time next week.