Dáil debates

Thursday, 16 November 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions - Priority Questions

Brexit Negotiations

12:25 pm

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade the meaning of the phrase sufficient progress in relation to phase one of the Brexit talks and Ireland; if progress has been met in the current round of talks; if Brexit talks will move to phase two in December 2017; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48487/17]

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We are still in phase 1 of the talks on Britain leaving the European Union. Three issues are currently being addressed in those negotiations. One is Ireland and what will happen in Ireland in a post-Brexit situation. The European Union says that we cannot move on to phase 1 unless sufficient progress has been made on all three areas and we support that. What does sufficient progress mean for the Government in respect of the Border? What is the bottom line and when will we know that sufficient progress has been made? For us to know that, we must have an understanding of what sufficient progress means from the Government's perspective.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I have a written reply to that, which the Deputy will get, but I will answer directly. It is to be hoped we are coming towards the end of the first phase of negotiations but that is not necessarily the case unless the sufficient progress test can be passed. The three issues are citizens' rights, the financial settlement and Irish issues. Within the Irish issues are three core issues. The first is what is called the common travel area and we have made good progress on that, allowing Irish citizens to move, live, study, access social welfare, carry pension entitlements and vote in Britain, and likewise in respect of British citizens here. The second two issues are complicated. The first is a commitment to fully implement the Good Friday Agreement in all of its facets. We have a mapping exercise between the British negotiating team and some Irish negotiators working with the task force to map out the complexity of that. There are 142 different areas of North-South co-operation that we are trying to figure out how to deal with in full in the context of Brexit. It is not easy. The third issue is the Border. The papers that were leaked last week are negotiating and working papers for the task force and they sum up where we are.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What is sufficient progress?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We want to ensure there is no regulatory divergence in Northern Ireland from the rest of Ireland. We would prefer for that to apply to all of Britain in order that we can continue to function on the island of Ireland, consistent with the Good Friday Agreement, ensuring that North-South co-operation can happen. If the rulebook changes between the two jurisdictions, that becomes much more difficult and more complicated, and we need assurances about that issue before the task force can give a signal that we can move on to phase 2 issues.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There are a number of problems with that. The Taoiseach has already said that we will not exercise any veto. That is manna from heaven for those on the British side. Second, there are mixed messages from the Government about the matter. The Minister has several times told the House and me - I have been at many meetings where he has discussed this issue - that it is vital that the North of Ireland stays in the customs union and Single Market.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister's view is that the best option is for Britain to stay in the Single Market but that the North should. The Taoiseach said last week that that is not necessarily what should happen. He also talked about divergence and said that it is possible, once Britain accepts the rules. How does that square with the European Union needing to protect the integrity of the customs union? Divergence of regulations is only part of the issue. If that is the case and we are to get divergence in standards, rules and so on, that is essentially a case of the North staying in the customs union anyway. We are confused about how matters stand in this regard and what the Government's position is. The only way we can avoid any hardening of the Border and the disruption of the movement of goods and services is for the North to remain in the customs union and Single Market. That should be the absolute position of the Government. It might be the Minister's position but a different position and wording is coming from the Taoiseach, which raises concerns for us.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I hope that is Deputy Cullinane's position now too. If it is, his position has changed somewhat into a more realistic position. The Government's position is that we would like to see Britain as a whole not only stay in the customs union but to stay as an extended part of the Single Market. That would solve many problems for many people and livelihoods. This is a negotiation, however, and there are two sides to it. We have to find agreement. I have said that Ireland will be firm and stubborn but fair when looking at proposals that can allow the island of Ireland to function with a consistent position on the Good Friday Agreement. A customs union arrangement for the island of Ireland does not solve everything by itself. It needs to go beyond that with regard to the regulatory environment but it would certainly help. We are saying that if Britain cannot operate under the same rules as Ireland and the rest of the European Union, there will need to be a facilitation that is unique and flexible that applies to the challenges on the island of Ireland. We have made that clear. It is also the task force's position. Unfortunately, this is now one reason we may not move on to phase 2 in December but I hope we will be able to find a way forwards between now and then.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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No divergence does not make a customs union. Our position is realistic. Is it unrealistic to ask for the entire island of Ireland to stay in the European Union? Perhaps the Minister now supports one part of the island coming out of the European Union. Is it unrealistic to say that the vote in the North, where people voted to remain in Europe, should be respected? Is Deputy Coveney genuinely telling me as a Minister that he believes it is unrealistic for a party in the North to want the entire island of Ireland to stay in the European Union? We have always said that we want the North to stay in the customs union and Single Market. We want the Good Friday Agreement to stay in the legal architecture and framework of the European Union. It is complex but that has to be worked out. The people of Ireland did not ask for Brexit and we can all accept that. We are trying to come up with solutions. The Minister has been in the North for a long time, meeting Sinn Féin representatives, and he can see the work we are doing in the European Parliament to negotiate with the British Government, European negotiators and with the Minister. We are earnest and honest about what we want to achieve, which is the best possible deal for the people who live on the island of Ireland. For us, that means the entire island staying in the European Union. If that means the North staying in the customs union, then that is what should happen because, in my view, that is in the best interests of people who live on the island of Ireland.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not want Britain to leave the European Union. I want the island of Ireland to remain in the European Union but we are in a negotiation following Britain deciding through a referendum to leave. We need to ensure that we protect Ireland's vulnerabilities, both North and South, in that context. We are negotiating through a European task force led by Michel Barnier, who understands the Irish issues very well. We are at one with the EU task force's approach here, which is to take a tough position to protect the concerns on the island of Ireland, ensure that there is no hard border in the future and that the Good Friday Agreement in all of its facets, particularly with regard to North-South co-operation, can function in the future. It is recognised in the task force that, to do that, the same rule book needs to apply to both jurisdictions. It would make it much easier to do that if we could stay in the same customs union. I do not think we disagree on most things. We need to be consistent to ensure that the British Government understands that Ireland will stubbornly stick to this position because we must and will protect the interests of our own citizens.