Dáil debates

Tuesday, 7 November 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Cabinet Committee Meetings

4:15 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee B, social policy and public services, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [44867/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach the Cabinet committee that has assumed the responsibilities of the former Cabinet committee on justice reform. [43824/17]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee B, social policy and public services, will next meet. [44043/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on Cabinet committee B, social policy and public services. [46348/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee B, social policy and public services, last met. [46483/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach the Cabinet committee at which issues relating to justice are discussed; and the number of times it has met since June 2017. [47086/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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116. To ask the Taoiseach the Cabinet committee in which justice issues are discussed; and when the last meeting took place. [46213/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, and 116 together.

Cabinet committee B covers the areas of social policy and public service reform, including education, children, equality, social inclusion, Irish and arts and culture and continued improvements in and reform of public services. Issues relevant to reform of the justice system are also included in its remit. Cabinet committee B met on Monday, 11 September and is scheduled to meet again next week.

Cabinet committees also aim to ensure a co-ordinated approach to the delivery of commitments in A Programme for a Partnership Government. The commitments seek to provide opportunities for everyone living in Ireland, of all ages and backgrounds, to participate fully and benefit from a recovering economy. For example, I expect committee B to focus on the roll-out of improved child care services, implementation of the DEIS action plan and improving services for people with disabilities.

The Government is also determined to ensure substantial reform of the policing and justice systems. The Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland is due to report next year but, in the meantime, the Policing Authority is overseeing implementation of the existing Garda modernisation and renewal plan. The Government expects to see further progress in the year ahead in areas such as civilianisation, a new divisional model of policing, improved ICT systems and victim support services.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will concentrate on reform of the justice system, with particular reference to white collar crime. As part of the Fine Gael leadership campaign, the Taoiseach promised action on this matter. There was a fanfare of publicity last week when some measures were announced. For example, we were told that the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, was to be made an independent agency, but it already is under the Company Law Enforcement Act 2001. We were told that the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Bill 2017 was important, but it has gathered dust as part of the legislative programme for the past five years. I do not have the current figures, but in 2016 there were 35 staff in the ODCE assisted by five gardaí. This gives an insight into the State's attitude to white collar crime and corporate enforcement. What the Government should be doing - I would like to believe the rejigged committee will do so - is considering international best practice in tackling white collar crime, including appropriate, independent and properly resourced agencies and robust legislation. Will the Taoiseach update the House on these matters?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I wish to ask about the sub-committee on public services and whether it is considering the Government's responsibility for the current rail dispute. Subsidies for transport services, specifically rail services, have decreased dramatically since 2008, from €181 million to €117 million. If the Government was simply to restore the level of subvention to Irish Rail in 2008, Irish Rail would have more than enough money to fund the pay claims of rail workers who have not received a pay increase for ten years. If the Government raised its subvention to average EU levels, an extra €120 million would be put straight into Irish Rail's transport services, which would be more than enough to finance the modest pay claim of rail workers who do not want to be out on strike but who believe they have no other choice. Have the Taoiseach and the sub-committee accepted that it is the Government's failure to subvent public transport that is the cause of the dispute? There is a rigged game. It means that, even if Irish Rail does well and makes a profit of more than €3.5 million, that profit is taken away from it; therefore, it cannot possibly finance a pay increase. Unless we provide the subvention that we used to give or is common across Europe, this type of dispute will continue.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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During the break between Dáil sittings we saw the first outing of the new communications union in national advertising - the colour ads and accompanying PR campaign that were rolled out highlighting the changes in funding by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection for dental cleaning and polishing services. It seems that the new interest in paid advertising that the Taoiseach brought to the Department remains in place.

Any expansion in a service is welcome, but what is not welcome is an advertising campaign being used to cover up a service which is in crisis.

I draw the attention of the Taoiseach to the appalling waiting lists for orthodontic treatment. People are waiting longer than 12 months - in some cases up to 24 months - for treatment. That bad news is never acknowledged and there are no advertisements about how bad the situation is. Thousands of children are waiting longer than 12 months for orthodontic treatment in every part of the country. In the grade 4 category, over 2,500 people have been waiting for over 13 months and a further 2,500 have been waiting for over 25 months, a total of 5,000. Close to 4,000 people are on waiting lists in the grade 5 category.

That gets to the core of the serious issues affecting children and teenagers waiting for orthodontic treatment. It is simply not good enough. People are annoyed when they see glossy full-colour advertisements from the Taoiseach's Department while at the same time the Government is failing to have any impact on issues affecting children in a significant way.

I raised the issue of hospices on previous occasions. People working in them are being treated very badly by the Government in terms of public pay policy. The Taoiseach said on the record of the House that hospices and section 29 companies were not subject to FEMPI. They were and I, and I understand Deputy Burton, met some of those affected recently. A documentary trail clearly illustrates that they were subject to FEMPI and were directed to take pay cuts by the HSE. They are now being denied pay restoration. Therefore, hospices have to pay their staff restored rates of pay. In many instances, they are €300,000 in the red as a result, depending on the size of the hospice.

It is an appalling and cynical way for a Government to treat our hospices. I have raised this issue on Leaders' Questions and the Order of Business. Has the Cabinet sub-committee agreed that what was done is wrong? Can he confirm that the wrong in respect of hospices and section 29 companies will be rectified?

4:25 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I want to support Deputy Martin. I am conscious that the Taoiseach acknowledged last week that he is aware of the impossible situation in which hospices are being put. I take it he will respond in due course.

Have the Taoiseach or Government had a discussion on harassment and bullying in the workplace, specifically public employment and publicly funded institutions? We have had a slew of stories recently which have involved harrowing and grotesque allegations of bullying in the Gate Theatre, which has been a significant recipient of public funds over the years. In theatrical terms, it has a fantastic record. The description of what has been happening to women in partially publicly funded employment is hardly believable. I know the Taoiseach does not have a direct role in this, but as a public funder I ask him or his Government to take a leadership role.

This is an incredibly important issue, most obviously to women in the workplace. It is also important to young people in the workplace, whether men or women, who may be at the start of their careers. Powerful dominant figures may use their power and dominance to make life very difficult for other people and seek to extract behaviour and favours from them which they would not otherwise dream of attempting to do.

Having become Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar is obliged to offer leadership. This is a policy issue. He cannot hide behind law. He has to make it clear what the standard of his Government will be in his approach to this. Do we require stronger legislation?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I refer to the justice function of the Cabinet sub-committee. Was there any discussion on the staffing levels of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, or was it brought to the attention of the Taoiseach, in particular the fact that the most senior Garda position, that of detective inspector, has been vacant since September of last year? The issue was raised in the House and the national media in May this year, with promises that the position would be filled speedily, but this has not happened to date. Will the Taoiseach provide assurance that this very important role will be filled without further delay?

I refer to the Government's pension policy. Has the committee discussed pensions policy? The Taoiseach began work on an action plan for pensions when he was Minister for Social Protection. There was talk of a universal auto-enrolment pension scheme. Where stands that now?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There was quite a range of questions on almost every topic, very few of which were dealt with by the Cabinet sub-committee. I am not in a position to answer them all in four minutes. I will try to answer what I can, starting with white collar crime.

On 2 November, the Government launched a suite of 28 measures aimed at enhancing corporate governance, increasing transparency and strengthening Ireland's response to white collar crime. I agree with the suggestion of Deputy Adams that we should look at best international practice and we can certainly do that. It is a priority for me and something about which I feel very strongly. I will personally spearhead the implementation of this initiative and the 28 actions. I do not necessarily think the actions should stop there. We can do what was announced last week, as well as doing more. The public demands that there be greater accountability in justice when it comes to white collar crime, in particular.

The package of measures includes a review of the effectiveness of State bodies with a role in the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of those engaged in fraud and corruption. The establishment of the ODCE as an independent company law compliance and enforcement agency, provisionally named the bureau of corporate compliance and enforcement, will provide greater autonomy and ensure it is better equipped to investigate the increasingly complex breaches of company law. The sourcing of expertise and specialist staff will be enhanced under the agency model. The Department proposes that a structure similar to a commission, as is the case with the Revenue Commissioners and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, would be the most appropriate for this agency.

There will also be a joint agency task force to tackle white collar crime. The pilot will address payment fraud, including invoice redirection fraud and credit card fraud, a criminal enterprise which is increasingly exploited by sophisticated criminal enterprises and which can have a devastating effect on individuals and businesses, resulting in the closure of companies and job losses.

The Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Bill and Criminal Procedure Bill will, among other things, streamline criminal procedures to enhance the efficiency of criminal trials. The Protected Disclosures Act will be evaluated to ensure the legislation has been effective in line with its objectives and how it might be improved if necessary. Each of these measures includes milestones for delivery which are time bound and have been assigned to a lead Department for implementation.

On the vacancy to which Deputy Howlin referred in respect of a Garda detective inspector in the ODCE, I understand the duties and role have been undertaken by another detective inspector in addition to other duties. An ambitious programme of recruitment and promotion is now underway across An Garda Síochána. This is taking some time, but arising from the process a new appointment will be made to the post as soon as possible. In the interim, the Garda authorities have confirmed that they intend to assign the role on a full-time basis, effective immediately. It is important to note that there has been a full complement of gardaí at sergeant rank throughout this period.

The allocation of resources is, of course, a matter for the Garda, subject to the oversight of the police commission. The Government has made it abundantly clear that it is entirely committed to tackling white collar crime. This was evidenced by the significant package of measures we launched last week. The House will shortly have an opportunity to debate the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Bill, which includes legislative provision for the recommendations arising from the Mahon tribunal and will substantially advance meeting Ireland's obligations under a number of international anti-corruption instruments.

This major modernisation of corruption offences law will repeal and replace seven previous prevention of corruption Acts from 1889 to 2010. It is a major update and modernisation of our law in this area. I am advised that, at its peak, subvention to Irish Rail was €308 million in 2008. It was cut back substantially but it has been increased by 35% in the past three years. It now stands at 93% of the 2008 figure.

4:35 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is for all transport and not just Irish Rail.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That may be the case but as the Deputy knows, Irish Rail receives over half of all the subvention that goes to public transport but carries only 20% of passengers. If we were to be fair and put passengers first, we would subsidise the buses much more as they carry much more passengers than rail services.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They should all be subsidised.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has suggested rail subsidies should be raised to the European average, arguing that if we did so, it would meet the pay demands of the unions. I would have thought we should put the passenger and consumer first, and if we raised our subsidies to the European average, we should be looking for a European rail service. That is the priority I would attach to this and it demonstrates the contrast in our approach. My priority will always be safety and services, people and passengers, and it is what we should put first. On pay we could do European benchmarking. If it makes sense to have a European level of subsidy for railways, surely the same should apply to pay and we could pay staff whatever is the European average. If the logic applies on the level of subsidy, it should also apply to the level of pay.

Deputy Martin asked about the work being done by the strategic communications unit, SCU. I am glad to confirm it is doing exactly what I said it would. It is informing people of their entitlements, including new entitlements. This includes the campaign around the restoration of treatment benefits. Free scaling and polishing is available for people who pay pay-related social insurance, PRSI, including the self-employed for the first time. It is one of the new benefits that the Government is introducing for the self-employed and restoring for others. It is a good step forward and it is about making work pay.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about orthodontics?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is about making work pay and the contributory principle. It is also about ensuring people get value for their PRSI. It is only the first step in a new system of social insurance that will be developed over a number of years.

I acknowledge that we have had very serious delays and waiting times for orthodontic work. I do not agree it does not get acknowledged. If one turns on the news on any given day, it is 80% negative and 20% positive. It ought to be 50/50 but it is not.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is never acknowledged by the Government's publicity machine.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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This can be seen through two simple examples. When unemployment rates increased, it was the main item on the news but now they are decreasing, it is item No. 20 if it is even on the news at all. When the amount of mortgage arrears were increasing, it was the main item on the news but now they are decreasing and it is barely news at all.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Taoiseach criticising the media?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The SCU does not go any way towards redressing-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on as we are not making progress.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are not giving the Taoiseach good enough coverage.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It does.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will move to Questions Nos. 7 to 9, inclusive.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Shocking.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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John Concannon will be getting a call.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am beginning to think the Taoiseach will be going to North Korea as well for the publicity.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The point I raised is very important to women. I understand what the Taoiseach spoke of is important but it ignores what has happened with the harassment and bullying of women.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have no control over that.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It ill-behoves the Taoiseach not to respond to that.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have taken four minutes in excess of what is allowed for the questions.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is a very unfair remark. I would be happy to continue to answer all the questions asked by Deputies-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach. I advise the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to be reasonable.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----but I am in the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's hands as to whether that complies with Standing Orders.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have exceeded the time. There are two other groups of questions.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I would be very happy to forget about all the other questions and just answer these.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am in the hands of Members. If they want to continue with this group for another 25 minutes, they can do so.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We need another minute.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I would like the Taoiseach to reply.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It would take more than a minute as there are number of other questions to answer.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is fine.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There are 25 minutes left.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am happy to reply but this system does not work.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Are we moving to the next questions?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We can have another minute on these.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will not be taking the third group.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The matter of the hospices is being examined and I have received Deputy Burton's correspondence on it in recent days. I understand the Labour Court will not deal with it because there is no dispute between the employer and the employees. I have asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Health to examine the matter and I am confident we will be able to resolve it by the end of the year, or certainly in line with the 2018 service plan.

Bullying in the workplace has not been discussed at Cabinet committee level, although I agree it is a very important matter. It is perhaps one we should discuss. There can be no tolerance of assault, sexual harassment or bullying of any sort in any workplace. I want that message to go out very clearly. The Gate Theatre is a private institution and not a public body. It has its own board and trustees, and it is incumbent on them to put in place an independent investigation to ensure the allegations made are thoroughly investigated. Separately to this, I have discussed the matter bilaterally with the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and she will meet members of the Arts Council today to discuss the matter and see if we need to take some actions across the arts sector. I do not believe for a second matters like bullying or sexual harassment are unique to any one sector. They are probably prevalent in society and I am full of admiration for the people who have come forward in this and other countries to tell their stories. If they continue to do so, it may help to change the climate and make people who may consider treating fellow workers or people subordinate to them in the workplace in such a beastly manner. I hope it would cause them to think twice in future.