Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Renua Ireland)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach the legislation to reform Seanad Éireann he proposes to introduce during the lifetime of the current Dáil Éireann; the suggestions and proposals he intends to adopt arising from his meeting with Opposition Members earlier in 2015 to discuss reform of Seanad Éireann; the steps he has taken to implement the recommendations of the working group on Seanad Reform, which his Department published on 13 April 2015; to progress the draft Seanad Reform Bill prepared for the working group; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31755/15]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach the status of the proposals for reform of Seanad Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [33947/15]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach the status of the most recent Seanad reform document; the recommendations therein; the actions being taken; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38960/15]

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on proposals for the reform of Seanad Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40212/15]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his proposals to reform the Seanad; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42214/15]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his comments in Dáil Éireann that he did not think it would be possible to introduce the planned reform of Seanad Éireann before the next election for Seanad Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42218/15]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, together.

The Deputies may recall that I met the leaders of the different parties and groupings in the Dáil and the Seanad in December 2013 to discuss how best to proceed with reform of the Seanad. Following this, in February 2014 the Government presented a package of proposals on Seanad reform to the Leader of the Seanad for submission to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of the Seanad.

In addition, in February 2014 the general scheme of the Seanad Electoral (University Members) (Amendment) Bill was published for consultation. The purpose of the Bill is to enable implementation of the 1979 constitutional amendment to extend the Seanad franchise to graduates from institutions of higher education in the State that do not currently form part of the Seanad university constituencies. This Bill is due for publication in 2016. More recently, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government published the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2015, whose purpose is to amend the Seanad electoral Acts inn regard to nominations for panel member elections and candidate election posts for university member elections and to amend the Electoral Act 1992 in regard to the supplement to the register of electors.

In order to further progress the Seanad reform process, I established an independent working group in December 2014 with a focus on possible reforms of the Seanad electoral reform system within existing constitutional parameters as well as on exploring ways of reforming Seanad Éireann generally and the manner in which it carries out its business. The working group published its report on 13 April last and it is available on my Department's website. The associated draft Bill and explanatory memorandum prepared for the group were also published on my Department's website on 14 May.

I issued a statement when the report was published in which I welcomed it and described it as being innovative and radical and as containing some far-reaching recommendations about how Members are elected to the Seanad and on how it should perform its functions. I indicated there needed to be a public and political discussion and consultation on the report. To that end, I requested that the working group make a presentation to the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht and to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of the Seanad. On 5 May last and again on 8 July, statements on the report were made in the Seanad with the chairman of the working group and former Senator Joe O'Toole, a member of the group, in attendance.

I also said that I intended to meet Opposition party leaders to discuss the report's contents and this meeting took place in July. Arising from that meeting, I gave a commitment to have a debate in Dáil Éireann on the working group's report and it is my intention that this will take place before the end of this session. The report recommended that the commencement date for the new arrangements, were they to be accepted, should be immediately following the next Seanad general election.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. It is an extraordinary situation that since the Taoiseach got that wallop two years ago from the electorate, he has been extremely lacking in terms of bringing forward any substantial reform to how Seanad Éireann works, how people are elected to it and the work it does. We met the Taoiseach on this issue last July and while I do not want to upset the Taoiseach, it was one of the most farcical meetings I ever attended in terms of the Taoiseach's lack of any notion of what he wanted to do himself. He had the independent report and put it on the table and asked us for our opinions but had no real opinion himself. It then emerged during the meeting that the Government had no position on the independent report. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, who was representing the Tánaiste, said the Government had not even considered it, yet the Government was asking the Opposition for commitments on specific aspects of it. At the end of the meeting, we asked the Taoiseach whether he would support the elements of the independent report that referred to direct franchise for citizens having a say in electing Senators. He demurred at that and eventually Deputy Ross put it to him that he was up for anything. The Taoiseach used the phrase that he would "consider anything".

The meeting was very incoherent and many of us left it scratching our heads because it was clear to us that neither the Taoiseach nor any member of the Government knew what they were doing with regard to the Seanad or the independent report the Taoiseach had commissioned. The members of the independent group who produced the report were busy lobbying everybody and felt they had got the green light from the Government and were encouraging the Opposition to play ball and agree with the recommendations made, although we would not have been entirely happy with all of the recommendations, particularly some of those to do with the compromise in regard to the direct franchise rather than the better solution that was produced here in legislation, both before and after the last referendum.

I understand from what the Taoiseach has said today that the legislation concerning the university panels will not now be finalised before the next election, although he committed to bringing it forward at that meeting. He has said today that it will be published in 2016. Will he confirm that means it will not be introduced before the general election, but that it will be left to a new government to implement it? Is it clear where the Taoiseach stands on this issue? Will he indicate whether he supports all of the recommendations of the independent working group he established, particularly in regard to the direct franchise and allowing citizens have a say in electing Senators?

This goes to the heart of the democratic revolution we were promised but never got from the Government. The people rejected the Taoiseach's proposition to abolish the Seanad, which he only thought up before the last general election to try to gain some momentum for his party. Most of the Taoiseach's party did not agree with the proposal but he went ahead with it. The public said "No" and the reason for that was that they valued alternative voices in democracy and valued debate.

They value of the idea of politicians having a platform and capacity to articulate ideas about society and about how things should evolve. The Seanad has played that role in spite of all of its challenges and difficulties. It has been a platform for alternative voices down through the years, from party-affiliated Members, as well as Independents. The people did not want to suppress that voice, even though the Taoiseach wanted them to do so.

The Taoiseach's failure on the Seanad is evident, particularly since his commitment to the party leaders following the independent review group. Nothing has happened. We have not been called into any meeting. There are about two weeks to go in this session, yet he throws out in his reply that he intends to have the debate before the end of the session. There are so many things supposed to happen before the end of this session that I am getting dizzy. There are letters coming from Ministers wanting to rush through emergency legislation and so on. There are a load of guillotines lined up for next week. The Chief Whip contacted me this morning to say he wishes to guillotine five or six Bills. That goes to the heart of democratic revolution.

The Taoiseach's reluctance to engage in proper debate on these issues, or to facilitate a genuine parliamentary democracy, is at the heart of it. Since he got the wallop when the people said no to the abolition of the Seanad he has thrown his hat at it and does not seem to want to progress any reforms, despite the fact that every Opposition party told him they would co-operate with the legislation. The Taoiseach was asked a direct question about it at the meeting but he did not answer. We do not know where he stands.

I received an invitation and I am sure the Taoiseach also did, to take part in the general election debate on TV3. I am prepared to do that but he is not. He has laughed. His view is that if he avoids those debates it is better. The public and the younger generation think that politicians should debate issues in the Dáil and Seanad Éireann, and that we should allow alternative voices to have their say. The Taoiseach belongs to a sort of cute hoor form of politics that says the more one ducks and dives, the less----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is not very parliamentary.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was meant in the most parliamentary way. It is not meant to be----

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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The Deputy is displaying a nasty streak today.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, that is a well known phrase and many works of political science, actually----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Would you put your question, please?

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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That is a nasty streak coming out. It is unbecoming of the Deputy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As a person who has studied political science, the Minister of State, Deputy Sean Sherlock, will find that phrase in many recommended documents, articles, books and so on. They use other language as well which one would not ordinarily use.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are many things in books. The rules of the House are different.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My point is that it seems to be the Taoiseach's view that the less space there is for parliamentary debate, the better. The less room for debate between any politicians of any hue, the better. I was in Temple Bar last Saturday week. Deputy Lucinda Creighton and I turned up but the Taoiseach did not. No one from Fine Gael or the other parties attended.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let us get on. I will let the Deputy back in again.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was the same in UCD. There were six or seven politicians who attended but no leader from Fine Gael or the Labour Party. This is a trend. It is wrong that politicians should avoid debating with one another.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure that rambling contribution deserves any kind of response. Are we to have a sudden revelation here in the Oireachtas that the greatest debater of all time has arrived?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy refused to accept any responsibility for the ministries he held. Now suddenly everybody should be cowering away under the benches because they are going to be devoured by this wonderful new political scientist who knows all the answers to all the questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Anybody----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy may continue with his arrogance if he wishes. I saw his picture in the local papers in Castlebar in the Sacred Heart home, the new expansion of which his representatives there say will never go ahead. The Deputy was standing there with his people. He is welcome any time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach. Am I allowed to go to Castlebar?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will be welcome when the facility is opened.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let us get back to the Seanad.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It took the Taoiseach five years to deliver that.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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It is being delivered.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to talk about the questions in respect of the Seanad. Deputy Micheál Martin might send me the list of Bills he believes are going to be guillotined. The Chief Whip has set out a very long list of legislation that we need to get through before the end of this session.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but they will guillotine it all.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I hope that far from obstructing Bills like the bankruptcy Bill the Deputy will co-operate and see they are put through in the interests of everybody.

I had a view about the Seanad that I would have liked to have seen it abolished. The people gave me their answer and I accepted it. Following that, I was very grateful to former Senators Manning and O'Toole, Mr. Tom Arnold, Dr. Elaine Byrne and others, who set up the working group and had no vested interests other than to put forward a number of radical and innovative ways of dealing with the matter. They made the central point that were this to be accepted, and I accepted it although it is not accepted by Deputies Micheál Martin or Gerry Adams----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach does not accept it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do accept it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach could not tell us at the meeting.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They made the point that the time to implement the report would be after the next Seanad general election. Perhaps the Deputy did not read the report. He clearly has a very different viewpoint, as does Deputy Gerry Adams. There is no point in getting into a long, contentious argument, which is what all the other reports about Seanad Éireann have led to over 40 years, about what to do with it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We all agreed on one thing at that meeting, except the Taoiseach. This is the usual disingenuous presentation of things. There should be direct elections.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept that we agree the Seanad needs reform in the way it does its business. A number of issues were mentioned in that report by people who have long experience and which are very much worth noting. They did say we should implement it after the next Seanad general election.

I am not going to be as presumptuous as the Deputy. His party, from what I can gather from his spokespeople, looks to have an overall majority as an individual party and is not associating with anybody. It does not want to be in partnership with anybody.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Neither does Fine Gael.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That assumes the Deputy intends to lead his party to an overall majority in the election in the spring. Good luck to him. As far as I am concerned, I do not want to be in any way presumptuous but if it happens that the Government I have the honour of leading is returned by the people, which is a matter for them, this is a report which I look forward to implementing.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to remind the Taoiseach in case he strays into other territory that I have not been in Castlebar in a few months.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is welcome any time.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Taoiseach very much. I have asked him to report on his proposals to reform the Seanad, and to report on his comments that he did not think it would be possible to introduce the planned reform of the Seanad before the next general election. We will not discuss the Taoiseach's cuteness or any other matter except, if possible, these ones. I have never accused the Taoiseach of being cute.

I join the Taoiseach in thanking those who participated in the working group on Seanad reform. He will recall that it was established after the electorate gave him a wallop and defeated the proposal to abolish the Seanad. The working group was given very tight terms of reference and was to consider submissions and previous proposals for reform; look at the role of a reformed Seanad; its powers and functions; the method of election; selection of Members; and any such matters the working group saw as relevant. Despite the limitations imposed on it by the terms of reference, there were some important recommendations. These include recommending that a majority - 30 - of the panel seats be elected by popular vote on the principle of one person, one vote; and that the principle of one person, one vote be extended to include Irish citizens in the North and holders of Irish passports living overseas. The working group argued for a system of online registration of voters and downloading of ballot papers.

Although the recommendations may have fallen short of what Sinn Féin and others believe is needed to make the Seanad a genuinely democratic and representative, accountable elected Chamber, they are nonetheless important. We disagree with the Taoiseach retaining the privilege of appointing 11 nominees, and with the failure to deal with university representation, gender representation and the representation of ethnic groups, particularly the Traveller community. That is a summary of what was reported back.

A promise and proposals were made in this regard as far back as Bertie Ahern that citizens in Northern Ireland should also have Oireachtas representation as of right. I recall the meeting on 8 July to which the Taoiseach invited us. It was a waste of our time. When the Taoiseach asked us what we thought of the report, I asked him what he thought of it. The Taoiseach did not have a view. It became clear in the next few moments that the Government had not even considered the report. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, made this clear and said that the Labour Party had not decided what its position was and the Government had yet to apply itself to this. I remember telling the Taoiseach that the Government should sort out its position on this and bring it to the Dáil when we could have a debate on it. I believe my memory of that is correct but this has not happened. The Bill was published on 5 May, which was seven months ago. In response to me at the time, the Taoiseach promised a debate on the issue but there has been no debate. It is now clear that no legislation will be introduced or passed by the Dáil in respect of the Seanad before the next general election. Arguably, we would not even be having this discussion if we had not put down the questions at this time. I see no evidence to suggest the Government and the Taoiseach are serious about Dáil reform.

I also think the John McNulty affair shows how all the old tricks continue to work in the new dispensation because that was an abuse of the Seanad, particularly in respect of those citizens who would serve on the cultural panel. There is still a chance. The Government could still schedule a long overdue debate in both the Dáil and the Seanad on the working group report. I do not have the details but our Whip reported to our last group meeting that there would be a series of guillotines this week on motions and proposals that the Government is bringing forward.

Going back to my original question, will the Taoiseach tell us why it is not possible to introduce the planned reform of Seanad Éireann before the next general election? Will he report on his proposals to reform the Seanad?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The working group, which I commended very strongly, recommended that if the report was to be implemented, it should be done after the next general election. Former Senators Manning and O'Toole, and the former Minister, Mary O'Rourke, made very cogent arguments as to why this should be but also as to what it would mean for the electorate and the way it might do its business. Deputy Gerry Adams is quite entitled to have a view that is very different from that report and that is fair. It is not just a case of the Government saying that this is its view because one wants the arguments and discussion for and against, which is natural. I would have thought that the report of people from all the different parties, who gave long years of service, would be one that would be acceptable to the Members in this House and be implemented. That is what they said. They said it should be done after the general election.

I always thought it unfair in respect of the universities panel. A referendum was held in 1979 and the Bill was published. However, as it will not be implemented before Christmas, it will fall to the next Administration to make its decision regarding Seanad reform. The parties can set out all their points. Obviously, we will set out our points. I hope that in the early part of the next Administration, some changes can be made that will make Seanad Éireann, which is here to stay by virtue of the people's vote, more effective and allow it to do its work in a different way in the times ahead.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Fianna Fáil was the only party which supported and campaigned for the retention of Seanad Éireann, although we wanted a reformed Seanad. I think that following the referendum most people were of the view that reform was required and should happen. That was the overwhelming perspective received from the people.

At the meeting in July, to which all the leaders were summoned by the Taoiseach, the only people who did not have a view on the independent report were the Taoiseach and the Government. That was explicitly stated by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White. He was very clear in making his point - almost to the point that one detected a certain sense of annoyance on his part about how things had unfolded. All those on the Opposition side agreed that they were in favour of the legislative approach, legislating for direct franchise to the Seanad. That point was put to the Taoiseach very clearly. The Opposition agreed it would run with this report's recommendations, particularly on direct franchise to the Seanad. As the Taoiseach did not follow through on that in any shape or form, we need to be very honest and straightforward about that aspect of it. There has been no follow through since that meeting in July. The Taoiseach did not come back to us about any aspect of this in terms of building a consensus because it is also agreed that a consensus is required. The Opposition was willing. The independent group kept putting pressure on the Opposition because it had a sense it had got a green light from the Government. However, the reality we experienced at the meeting was completely at variance with what it expected would happen. That is my sense of it. I did not get any sense that the Government is seriously considering the independent report at all.

In terms of reform in politics generally and the points about debates, I am not talking about myself. I am talking about any leader here. I will debate with anybody. It should happen, if somebody else comes in. We tell young people to get involved in politics. We go to schools and tell students to get involved and interested in their community and in the world and they expect that from all political representatives. That is what people expect. They expect politicians, regardless of who they are, to debate passionately about whatever they believe in or disagree with. The example they get from Government is an orchestrated and choreographed response that is really designed to avoid any meaningful debate or engagement. That is the point. This speaks against the whole value of parliamentary democracy and democracy in general because it allows others to come to the fore.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thought Deputy Micheál Martin was speaking about himself and had said that he was invited by a television station to debate certain issues with me and that he accepted that. He was talking about himself.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Fair enough, but he said-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The general point is beyond that.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy actually said he was not speaking about himself-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Through the Chair, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I look forward to the opportunity to have debates with you all - everybody.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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You all.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Because-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy the Leader of the Opposition or is it Deputy Gerry Adams?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach does not want to debate one-to-one with anybody. He should debate with Deputy Gerry Adams.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are talking about reform of the Seanad.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is Deputy Micheál Martin the Leader of the Opposition or is it Deputy Gerry Adams?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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RTE and the Taoiseach are at one on this. RTE agrees with the Taoiseach. It is probably facilitating him in one way.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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RTE is entitled to its own opinion.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let us get back to the business at hand.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach has had the back door in there, to be quite blunt about it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As far as I am concerned, I debate political issues every day of the week-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The same thing happened last year.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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----- and, in some cases, far more robustly than what the Deputy does in here. Be that as it may, the Deputy has a particular slant he wants to follow at all times. I suppose he is entitled to that. We have a series of really important pieces of legislation to put through between now and the end of this session. I hope co-operation will be forthcoming from the Opposition parties on these matters rather than them waiting to prolong things just for the sake of discussion.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Taoiseach accept that there will be a guillotine on those? Five minutes ago he said there was no guillotine.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are speaking about Seanad reform.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I hope we do not have to guillotine-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach has asked for guillotines. He has tabled motions to the Whips for guillotines.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is a thing called speaking through the Chair.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My apologies.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have the bankruptcy, the climate change and the legal services legislation to finish.

These are important Bills and I hope that the Opposition parties, in the interests of having the legislation put through, will be able to make their valid points and where amendments are made and accepted, fair enough.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Taoiseach now confirming that they will be guillotined?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I cannot confirm what will happen in the Dáil, but I hope we will get all those Bills through in the time that is available in this session. I look forward to the Deputy’s help in that regard.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to my original question, which is for the Taoiseach to report on his comments that he did not think it would be possible to introduce the planned reform of Seanad Eireann before the next election. That is contrary to what he told me seven months ago when he promised that we would do this.

I was at a meeting last night in Ballymascanlon called by the local county branch of the Irish Farmers Association to deal with rural crime. I will not take us along that road although it is an issue worthy of debate. What struck me was the anger at the politicians who were in attendance. All the main parties were there but we had been instructed not to speak. Towards the end of the meeting that instruction was relaxed. The reason there is so much anger, not just about rural crime but a range of issues, is the high-flown rhetoric the Taoiseach employed when he talked about political reform and spoke of Paddy needs to know, a democratic revolution, never doing things the way they were done in the past, doing them differently and that honesty was going to be the policy.

Then we come to the issue of Seanad reform and, as we were reminded a moment ago, the referendum question put by the Government did not include the ability to vote for reform, which was our preference. The question was either retain it or get rid of it. One would think, given how the electorate responded to that, and given that this working group was set up that the Taoiseach would have responded speedily but he did not. He has had the report - I will not repeat what happened at the meeting that took place - for seven months and he has not brought it forward. That is why so many citizens are cynical about politics and angry about some politicians, on top of all the other policies the Government has employed. It is not enough to say the working group did not see this being brought in until after the next general election. That does not stop us from priming ourselves and getting the best legislation possible. Why did the Taoiseach not bring forward the report? Was that a real promise he made in May when he agreed to do so or was it just off the top of his head? Was he serious? Why do we not have this issue addressed, including the legislation and the debate that is required in order to fulfil the Taoiseach’s commitment to political reform and the democratic revolution?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy is aware, in a referendum the answer is either "Yes" or "No". It is not "might" or "would" or "maybe". It is not a question of asking people do they want to consider abolition of this entity or not, and by the way they might consider something else while they are at it. It is a straightforward question. I am quite sure that many of the people who were at the meeting in Ballymascanlon last night, a place I know well, voted one way or the other as they were perfectly entitled to do, in response to the question they were asked. They gave their answer and Seanad Éireann is here to stay. In order to reflect on all the different reports from different parties, entities and Senators, that have been there for many years-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach have the report?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes and it is a very good report. It is a very objective report from experienced people who have served in the Seanad and in this House and understand the mechanics of politics very well and have no vested interest in the Seanad or in being Members of the Seanad.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why did the Taoiseach not bring it forward?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did not bring it forward because of the view taken by the working group on the question of implementation.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not what it said.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If that is not what it said the Deputy seems to know, regardless of whether he read it. That is what it said. There is not agreement on this report.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We have not had a chance to debate it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is no agreement on this report. The Deputy will have his debate before Christmas, but he will not agree with Deputy Micheál Martin or us. There will be different points made and that is fair in political discourse and debate but I do not think the people in Ballymascanlon last night were angry about high-flown rhetoric about Seanad Éireann.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach think so? It is about the money the Government gave to the banks.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Not at all. The Deputy should not be foolish. There are many challenges and issues to be considered and they can only be dealt with by decisiveness and clarity and not high-flown rhetoric, like putting €2.2 billion on the table for social housing, or whatever. People understand that.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Cutting Garda numbers.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Garda numbers yes, and a new unit to deal with cross-Border crime, and a new authority to deal with that and €200 million to provide the Garda with proper information systems so that it can apprehend criminals. We can get everybody involved, north and south of the Border to deal with this.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Welcome to the club.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy’s contacts will I am sure be helpful to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda in that regard and we look forward to putting those criminals behind bars where they should be.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I work with both of them as the Taoiseach knows.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It does not take high-flown rhetoric to do that. We need communications systems, security forces that are well financed and facilitated with resources to do that and protect our citizens. That is why people get angry when they do not see that. I hope they see it now.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach still has not answered the question.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a matter for the Taoiseach, not for me.