Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach the formal processes and mechanisms for documenting decisions made within his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15215/15]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he is satisfied that the standard of record keeping in his Department, including the maintenance of minutes of meetings, is adequate; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31706/15]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 and 4 together.

Records in my Department are created and held in compliance with the provisions of the Data Protection Acts, the Freedom of information Act and the National Archives Act. Minutes are taken of meetings held in my Department where judged appropriate. For example, records are kept of all decisions taken at Government meetings on the basis of memoranda submitted by Ministers. Records are kept of all Cabinet committee meetings and circulated to relevant Ministers and a note is normally taken of meetings I have in the Department with delegations or interest groups.

My Department has a designated member of staff who is responsible for managing the Department’s records and a designated certifying officer who is responsible for compliance with the National Archives Act 1986. National Archives staff assist with work relating to the annual transfer of Departmental records to the National Archives. These staff maintain a central registry record-keeping system, comprising a registry file tracking system and a central repository for the storage of departmental records. The location of files in the Department is monitored from the time of their creation until they are transferred to the National Archives for permanent preservation. In-house workshops on the creation and maintenance of records have been provided for staff by relevant officials from the Department and the National Archives.

The Office of the Government Chief Information Officer in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has been established to give guidance and leadership in the development of an ICT and record management strategy across the Civil Service. My Department will actively engage with this work. This Government has also introduced a range of legislative reforms to increase transparency, including a restoration and enhancement of the freedom of information legislation, a new protected disclosures regime and ground-breaking legislation to regulate lobbying.

Members will be aware of the move from a 30-year to a 20-year release of records. The British Government did this and, clearly, one does want to see a situation whereby papers relevant to one Government in respect of, for instance, Northern Ireland would be released many years earlier than would normally follow here. The Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, is examining the issue and the Government has given its approval to move to that system.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I note the Taoiseach's reply states that records are kept where judged appropriate, which is an interesting phrase. It would seem to suggest that there is wriggle room for him and others to decide the taking of minutes may not be appropriate.

In his constant drive to avoid being accountable, the Taoiseach has, of course, refused to answer detailed questions in the House about his role in the departure of the former Garda Commissioner. Central to the evidence heard by Mr. Justice Fennelly is that not only did he not keep minutes of his discussions, he did not even record a decision, in particular a crucial meeting at which the Taoiseach was present along with the Secretary General of his Department, the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Attorney General. A serious decision was taken at that meeting to send the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality to the Commissioner's house with a message that the Taoiseach may not have confidence in him the following morning. The judge is absolutely scathing of the fact that there is no record or minutes of the meeting or of the decision taken. No one took minutes of the discussions. I suggest that is how one can end up with the situation whereby the majority of those present at the meeting end up disagreeing with the Taoiseach's evidence. One person went as far as to describe the Taoiseach's story as a fantasy.

The Taoiseach's failure to keep a single record of what he admits were a gravely serious set of meetings goes 100% against the statement he has just made and he has repeatedly made during Question Time over the past four years. He said to me that under him every meeting would be minuted, even if he was talking to a constituency delegation. He used a colourful phrase at one stage. A delegation from a constituency came to speak to him, during which he thumped the table and he said even that was recorded. He said no meeting would be too small to record everything in minutes.

Some three or four years ago he made a nasty slur against his predecessor and used innuendo to the effect that records could have been disappeared and so on. He belatedly withdrew that statement two years later and said he should not have said it, even though the decision his predecessor took had 149 documents backing it up. The Taoiseach has said consistently that he wants the full minutes of everything that was discussed.

Can the Taoiseach explain why, at the meeting between him, the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Secretaries General of his Department and the Department of Justice and Equality and the Attorney General, the standards upon which he insisted were not met? Can he accept that his failure to ensure any record was kept leaves us a conflict of evidence, whereby a member of his party has said his evidence was fantasy? Surely that is a real step backwards rather than the proper reform which he advocated. Does the Taoiseach regret that no minutes were taken or record kept of what was an extremely important meeting, leading as it did to a commission of investigation having to be established? Mr. Justice Fennelly is absolutely scathing in his report about the absence of any record of the meeting. Does the Taoiseach apologise for no record being kept and regret the fact no minutes of meeting exist?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin referred to accountability. The issues examined in the interim report by the sole member were referred from the Oireachtas committee dealing with justice and other matters and were included in the terms of reference for the commission of investigation by me, with the approval of the Government. In that regard, I was fully accountable to the commission of investigation and was very happy to welcome the clear and unambiguous findings of the sole member. There was, of course, a decision recorded to the effect that there should be a commission of investigation in the first instance, and that was brought to the Government the following day in regard to setting it up.

The Deputy referred to the groups which come before me. All such engagements with the political process with me in the job I hold, be with they companies, organisations, firms or anything else, have note takers to record the issues discussed and any conclusions arrived at. That is done in the case of every single outside entity that comes before me. I have referred to this case before, where a decision was taken that there should be a commission of investigation, and that was brought to-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Not at the meeting to which I referred. Be honest and specific about what I have asked. I asked about the meeting with the Secretary General.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy started off by saying that I was not accountable. I was accountable to a commission of investigation conducted by a sole member who had evidence in person and in writing from all the people who were at the meeting, and I was happy to welcome his conclusions. As I said, on the other matters the Deputy mentioned, outside bodies and organisations always have a departmental note taker to record the issues discussed and any conclusions arrived at.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask a supplementary question?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Just one. There is a group of questions coming up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach refused to answer the specific question I asked, namely, why minutes of the meeting on the evening when he sent the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality to the former Garda Commissioner's house were not taken. Mr. Justice Fennelly is absolutely scathing of the failure to record the meeting.

The Taoiseach referred to note takers. There were two Secretaries General present, namely, the Secretary General to the Department of the Taoiseach and the Secretary General to the Department of Justice and Equality. Why did the Taoiseach not instruct them to take notes of the proceedings? Will he acknowledge that he did not do so, that no note was taken at the meeting, and will he explain why? Does he regret it?

It is nothing to do with the decision to decide on a commission of investigation. The Taoiseach tried to slip that in as an answer, but it is not an answer and has nothing to do with it. A judge, in his conclusion, cannot believe that there are no minutes of the meeting. Why is that the case? Will the Taoiseach accept that no minutes were taken?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to quote from the programme for Government which commits the Government parties to bring an end to the "unacceptable executive practice where no record is kept of ministerial involvement with an issue and resulting decisions".

I am also reminded of the Taoiseach's first speech in the House as Taoiseach, when he told us and the people of the State:

today I enter into a covenant with the Irish people. In these times of crisis, full of many unknowns, honesty is not alone our best policy but our only policy. The new Government will tell the people the truth regardless of how unwelcome or difficult that might be. We will tell it constantly and unreservedly.

However, there has been no effort to keep this in spirit or in practice or to bring it into law.

There are a number of controversial examples of this, including the one which has just been cited of the crucial meeting involving the Taoiseach and the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality before he was dispatched to the home of the former Garda Commissioner. There are various takes and versions of what happened at that meeting. The Tánaiste of the day, Deputy Gilmore, stated the Taoiseach told him it was his position that he may not be able to express confidence in the Commissioner at the following day's Cabinet meeting. The Taoiseach denies this. There is no minute to verify which one of them is telling the truth. Was it a deliberate act that no minute was taken? Was a decision taken, even informally, that it would not be minuted or was it just bad practice? Did someone forget to do it? We also have the 23 meetings on Irish Water that took place between Bord Gáis Éireann and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government between April and September 2012. Of these 23 meetings, only ten had minutes and of these five amounted to one typed page. The former Minister, Phil Hogan, had two meetings with-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are straying a bit now, Deputy.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is the same point-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, it is not.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----because there are no minutes of two meetings which-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is questions to the Taoiseach.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If I understand it, this is about documenting decisions-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Record-keeping in his Department.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Fair enough. I make the point that the commitment was given by the Taoiseach that he would end the practice up until then of not minuting meetings, whereby no record was kept of ministerial involvement in an issue and resulting decisions. Famously, this was the case over a range of meetings between Ministers and, in this particular case, the former Minister, Mr. Hogan, and Bord Gáis Éireann officials.

Coming to my point, we are advised that the election will not be until spring so there is still time to bring into law what the Taoiseach committed to do in the programme for Government. We still have time to introduce legislation, in consultation with Opposition parties and with their support. There is still time to bring in new practices and rules in the Government and Civil Service to ensure proper minutes are kept by Departments. Perhaps this would save this issue being perpetually flung at the Taoiseach in the last throes of the Government. Will he do this? Will he use the next short period to introduce the legislation required?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams is aware that minutes are taken of every Government meeting, of all Cabinet sub-committee meetings and of meetings with outside organisations, agencies, companies and individuals. I am quite sure there are meetings on a regular basis between public servants about issues of progress, and they are probably not deemed to be formal meetings. In the case of the meeting referred to, the people who were present at it, including myself, made written statements to the commission of investigation and proceeded to give oral evidence at the committee of investigation. This was considered and presented in the report which was published on 1 September by the commission.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No minute was taken.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was happy to-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Taoiseach accept that? Does he accept no minute was taken? Will the Taoiseach answer the question?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was happy to note the report took account of all of the evidence provided and sets out in detail-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Taoiseach accept the basic point that no minute was taken?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Martin cannot be shouting from the sidelines.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----the sole member's findings and conclusions about the matter.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, does the Ceann Comhairle's power to assess whether a Minister or the Taoiseach has answered a question apply to these oral exchanges?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not a matter for the Chair to decide whether the Deputy has got a satisfactory answer or not.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a mechanism for ministerial questions?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, there is no mechanism-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A written appeal?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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-----whereby I can demand a different reply to a particular question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will not ask the Ceann Comhairle to demand that. I would not do that to him, because to demand a clear reply from the Taoiseach is a task too gargantuan for the Ceann Comhairle or anybody else at this stage.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Let us not waste time. We have spent 33 minutes on these four questions and I want to move on.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach should have answered the question. He had a meeting that effectively sacked a Garda Commissioner and took no minute of it and he will not give a straight answer.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy Martin to please respect the Chair. One thing that should not go out the window is respect for the Chair, whoever is in it.