Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I take this opportunity, on my behalf and that of my party, to congratulate President Obama on his success in the US presidential elections. He and the United States have been good friends to Ireland and we wish him and the United States every success in what will be a very challenging environment over the coming years. I also pay tribute to Governor Romney for what was a very competitive campaign, which riveted many people over the past weeks.

On the domestic front, I mention an issue that I raised some weeks ago with the Taoiseach, the savage cuts in home help hours. The rhetoric being used in this House bears no relation to the reality with respect to the impact of these cuts. I met thousands of people last Saturday when people from all over Munster were marching in Cork, and I got first-hand accounts from people whose elderly relatives have had home help hours cut. I recall the Taoiseach saying some weeks ago that the overall position is that anyone with an assessed need for a home help service will not be left without one. That is not the reality.

I met a young woman on Saturday who detailed the case of her elderly disabled mother. She said that although it was difficult for them to manage before the cuts, it is now impossible because of these cruel measures. She indicated that there was no alternative to considering placing her mother into long-term care, which she is sure will cost the State dearly compared to care at home. Her GP wrote to the HSE and the Taoiseach noted there would be medical assessment in that regard. The GP indicated that although cost-saving measures must be addressed by the HSE, it is inhumane to deny a disabled, elderly person the fundamental right to live in her own home with dignity. He went on to say that he finds the cutting of home help hours for vulnerable patients very upsetting and unjustifiable, and it makes no economic sense.

There is a range of other cases, and I am sure every Deputy in the House has had people outline details of elderly people who have had hours cut fully and the service fully stopped. There are two elderly sisters who are nearly blind who have had their hours fully stopped. This position is untenable and unfair. The manner in which these cuts have come about, as the campaign for Older and Bolder and others have argued, means that there has been no notice in many cases. The impact has been "colossal and potentially dangerous" in the words of Age Action Ireland.

Does the Taoiseach accept that these cuts fly in the face of repeated commitments in the programme for Government? Will the Taoiseach consider reversing those cuts imposed on families?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Every time the Deputy raises an issue about matters to do with the elderly and disabled, there is an immediate emotional contact. It is true that this is a very difficult area in which to make any kind of adjustment without individual difficulties arising. I understand that. I meet such circumstances myself and I have had occasion to have queries about individual cases raised where particular circumstances apply either with a person's position or the change in a service being provided.

The service plan for 2012 was to deliver 10.7 million home help hours to 50,000 people. The reviews carried out are done in such a way so that anybody who is a current recipient of a service and who has an assessed need for a service will not be left without a service. I have seen cases where people may have a medical service that washes and changes them, which is a personal and sensitive matter, and a spouse or family member may not be trained to do that kind of work for an elderly person. There are different sorts of assistance given through various measures from the HSE, such as respite care, home care packages, home help or the meals on wheels service.

In the Cork area, for example, HSE south has provided in excess of 1.2 million home help hours to more than 6,100 clients.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Break it down.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The current activity in the Deputy's county delivers over 82,000 hours per month over the plan already agreed for 2012. The Cork city team and management of professional staff are working so that it can be realised in a measured and appropriate manner. It is not a case of simply having a blanket reversal but rather making an adjustment which is not without difficulty for some people. For those with an assessed medical need, the HSE has been instructed by the Minister that such people be treated sensitively.

We can all come up with individual cases straying outside that boundary. The Deputy asked me to reverse these but that is impossible. The managing professional teams dealing with the issue - I met some service providers when I was in Cork recently - must work in a measured and sensitive fashion, so those who need the service will continue to get it.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It would cost more for these people to be in hospital.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach promised increased funding for home care packages and more home help hours. That promise has been clearly broken. Apart from that, the Taoiseach mentioned medically assessed need. I have told people what the Taoiseach said to me in the House six weeks ago, that people with such an assessed need would not be cut, there would be sensitivity and so on.

They just laughed at me and asked whether I and the Taoiseach were for real. This is not what is occurring on the ground. People are being left without a service that they clearly need.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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All of the time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know of a case of two sisters, one aged 84 years and the other aged 93 years. One is wheelchair-bound and both are nearly blind. They used to have five hours, which clearly means that there was an assessed need. Their time was reduced to two hours and has now been stopped fully. People with clear medical needs and who were receiving home help hours have had their services stopped fully.

I want the Taoiseach to move away from the rhetoric of the House. For many families looking in, there is no relationship between the rhetoric used and the reality on the ground.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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None whatsoever.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We owe it to people to go beyond the set piece replies from the HSE, the Department or the Minister concerned.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Spin doctors.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to interrogate what is occurring on the ground. The original case of a disabled elderly woman in west County Cork that I identified to the Taoiseach was horrendous. Her daughter has been actively supporting her mother, but the former is at the end of her tether in terms of being able to keep her mother at home. The general practitioner, GP, has written to the HSE to confirm this and to say that something must give.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin's Government abolished the health boards.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If we force elderly people from their homes into institutions, nursing homes and community nursing units, we will cost the State far more than is currently the case under the home help service. The Government has proposed additional cuts worth €8 million. That decision is reversible. It is within the Government's capacity.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I invite Deputy Martin to send me the details of the particular case he mentioned in west Cork.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Can we all do that?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy hold on one minute, please?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. We know about the Deputy's cases as well. I do not know the details-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not know the details of the provider who is providing the service in that case.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Just cutting the services.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not know the extenuating family circumstances. I invite Deputy Martin to send the details to me and we will see. I am not standing up-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We all know of cases.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Fine Gael and the Labour Party are cutting the services.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We know all of that. Deputy Martin mentioned a specific case that he says is horrendous. As far as I am concerned, the elderly woman in west Cork who is disabled and who needs medical attention should get it on the assessment carried out by the professional teams of the HSE.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Reverse the cuts.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Two reviews have been carried out already this year. In each case, all of these circumstances can vary from house to house, from person to person or from family circumstances to family circumstances. Is that person receiving home care assistance outside of the home help service? What other elements of health provision for that person are being received? I do not know. I invite the Deputy to send me those details.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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She wants her cut home help hours back.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As far as I am concerned, having spoken with the Minister for Health and the HSE about this, in the assessment of needs that are carried out by professional people in providing this service, where there is a medical assessment required and where there is a medical need, that person is not going to be left without a service.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not happening. They are being left without a service.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What is "medical assessment" in English?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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All Deputy Martin wants is to say "Reverse all these things". In this case, that woman is living in west Cork this morning. If she needs medical assistance through some form or other of this scheme-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine, but we are discussing home help hours. Let us not try to confuse the matter.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----then that is the assessment to be given to her.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the assessment of home help hours-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are being cut.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----it may well be that the provider is calling to the house in the morning to get that person up and to get that person bathed, dressed and ready for the day. Is that the service that is being provided?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is out of touch.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not go through all of the details.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy knows all of the details-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I have them here. We all do, including Deputy Buttimer.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----I invite him to send them to me. We will check that case with the HSE and he can return to it next week.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We want the case's details.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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All the Taoiseach will do is refer the cases to the HSE.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please. This is Leaders' Questions.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Taoiseach is not answering.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Shouting and roaring means that no one can hear what anyone is saying. Will Deputies please stay quiet, allow a person to ask a question and allow it to be answered?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach's response to Deputy Martin's question on home help hours vividly reflects the fact that the Government lives in cloud cuckoo land. Those women in west Cork are not alone. Every Deputy could and perhaps should be in direct correspondence with the Taoiseach to set out the thousands of cases of older and disabled people being left in the lurch and abandoned by the Government. The Taoiseach speaks as if he does not realise that the Government has made cuts to this service. They are hurting.

Last night, President Obama was re-elected. I am sure that we all congratulate him. It may interest the Taoiseach to know that he earns an annual salary of $315,000.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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What topic are we discussing? Deputy McDonald can only discuss one topic.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Does President Obama do home help hours now?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Are we discussing home help or President Obama?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Drop the script.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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If I might be allowed.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, I will not allow the Deputy.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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On what basis?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is entitled to discuss one topical issue.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We are not allowed to ask questions.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is not multiple choice.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That salary is the kind of money that we in this State reserve for retired bankers and politicians. Last night, we heard the news that the former AIB chief, Mr. Eugene Sheehy, bowed to public pressure and agreed to reduce his pension to a paltry €250,000 per year. This is the kind of money that the average citizen would only see if he or she was lucky enough to win the lotto. What further steps will the Government take to tackle these pensions? Will it ensure that other retired bankers take similar cuts, for example, former directors of AIB, Anglo Irish Bank, Irish Nationwide, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB? What about the holders of ministerial pensions? Some are still in full employment, for example, Mr. Pat The Cope Gallagher-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy McDonald is over time.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----Mr. Alan Dukes, a former leader of the Taoiseach's party, and Mr. Dick Spring.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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What about Sinn Féin's parliamentary salaries from Westminster?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank Deputy McDonald. I call the Taoiseach to reply.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why does Sinn Féin not go to Northern Bank?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has invited-----

A Deputy:

Go on. Rob a bank.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----us to write to him in respect of home help hours and we will do that.

A Deputy:

Robbing banks.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McDonald is over time. Will she please resume her seat?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about Sinn Féin's pensions from Westminster?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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When will the Taoiseach write to the politicians and bankers-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy resume her seat, please? Will she respect the Chair?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----in receipt of these exorbitant pensions?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Some £26.5 million was stolen from Northern Bank.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Ceann Comhairle ask Labour to respect Deputy McDonald?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What will the Government do? It cannot intervene to save home help hours and-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will not ask Deputy McDonald to resume her seat a second time.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----it cannot intervene to remove these exorbitant pensions.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy hear me?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What exactly can the Government do?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, I am on my feet. Will the Deputy please resume her seat when I am on my feet? The same rules apply to everyone in this House, including her.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, they do not.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Not to Government Deputies, obviously.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will not be bullied in the Chair.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Neither will I.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tell them to shut up.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call on the Taoiseach. I will not be bullied. Deputies should listen to me.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will not be bullied either.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies will respect the Chair. It is the only thing left in this House.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about them?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about pensions from Westminster?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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About 20% of the population over 65 - that is 100,000 people - receive a home help service and home care from one or other of the range of options that are there. It is not unusual for Deputy McDonald to attempt to compete for populism with the Technical Group. She is at it again this morning.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is disgraceful.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The chief executive of AIB has written a letter to a number of former employees of Allied Irish Banks, not based on their salaries, but based on their responsibilities, in regard to the pensions they receive. I am glad to note that the former chief executive, Mr. Sheehy, has made a personal decision in regard to the level of pension that he intends to draw. These persons - I answered this question yesterday - have been in receipt of pensions under contractual arrangements that I cannot change, that the Minister for Finance cannot change and that, under our constitutional law, are recognised as a property right. It ill behoves Deputy McDonald to come in here and lecture everyone else when the leader of her own party was drawing an allowance for years for a Parliament that he did not recognise.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McDonald has one minute to ask a supplementary question.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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To sum up, this is a Government that can take home help hours from people-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, Deputy, but we are discussing salaries.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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----but cannot intervene in these outrageous pension arrangements. It can write people a Dear John letter in the hope that they will voluntarily take a cut. That is the Taoiseach's contention. He cited the constitutional limitations and associated property rights.

That is a familiar tune which the Taoiseach's colleagues in government have been singing for the past year and a half. The Taoiseach knows, or at least he should know, that there are other legislative and taxation mechanisms which his Government can utilise to recoup and minimise these massive pensions. The big question is why he has not done that. I believe it is because he does not want to. He will not write to parents-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have your question, please?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----or pensioners and afford them the opportunity to take a cut voluntarily. It is mandatory for the little people. The Taoiseach will not step up to the plate and use the instruments available to him to deal with this matter. That is indefensible and disgraceful.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy represents a party which for a long time did not recognise the Constitution, the State or the laws of this land. One of the laws of the land, which is still in operation, is the law regarding what pension rights actually constitute. This Government did not draw up, or allow to be drawn up, the contractual arrangements and obligations for extraordinarily high pensions for a small number of personnel in banks. That happened under a previous Administration.

In so far as the appointments made by this Government are concerned, they comply with the capping arrangements in place. I repeat for the benefit of the Deputy that the legal situation is that her pension is also a property right for her if she decides to draw it when she leaves this House or when she is removed from it in due course, which is a matter for the people to judge. It is not a case of the Government being able to say we are now reducing these pensions, because they are contractually arranged with the bank personnel for quite a number of years. Some of them have been in receipt of them.

We have made the point about premium payments and bonuses. Taxation is a matter for the Government to decide in respect of the drawing up of the budget for 2013. It is not a case of the Minister for Finance being able to say "yea" or "nay" to anybody's pension and that this is what it will be from now on. There are contractual obligations under a law drawn up, which this Administration had nothing to do with.

As far as appointments made to banks by this Government are concerned, they comply with the approval of the Minister for Finance in respect of the guidelines and caps which have been laid down. That will continue to be the case.

It is not good enough for the Deputy to speak as if she is the only one to represent the little people, as she calls them. I represent all the people of the country. We do not target sectors, as she does and as was done previously.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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The Taoiseach's programme for Government pays lip-service to tackling homelessness and pledges to put an end to long-term homelessness. This is all very noble but yesterday Focus Ireland highlighted the fact that rent supplement payments have fallen by 28% in the past three years while rental prices have remained steady and, in some cases, have increased, forcing people out of their homes. The Minister for Social Protection stated in the House that cuts to rent supplement would not result in additional homelessness, but landlords are refusing to accept lower supplements, and without having any savings of their own, people are being evicted while others are being forced to give top-up or under-the-counter payments, putting further strain on their households. This is causing homelessness and it is as a direct result of the Government decision to cut rent supplement. Does the Taoiseach want to see the opening of more soup kitchens like the recent one in Athlone? Is this the kind of buy-in to recovery the Taoiseach is looking for from the people?

Some 97,000 households are dependent on rent supplement, and introducing any further cuts will mean more people will be left without a home. Some landlords are charging extortionate rates for their properties, but simply cutting rent supplement and waiting for it to sort itself out is not a solution. As long as there is a crisis in social housing, there will be a need for rent supplement.

People on low income, who have a clear housing need, should not be punished for this. It is up to the Taoiseach to solve this problem, but so far he has failed. The programme for Government states that prevention is better than cure. How does the Government plan to prevent this cause of homelessness? Will the Taoiseach commit to bringing forward the next scheduled review of the limits from June 2013, with a view to increasing the threshold for rent supplement to ease the urgent situation many families face?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government, through the Department of Social Protection, funds approximately 30% of the private rented sector. Currently, it is costing €430 million per annum. Deputy Pringle is well aware that it was necessary to put in some limits in respect of the rents being charged by landlords. The relationship between the Department is with the tenant and not the landlord, so a tenant applying for rent allowance does so in negotiation with the landlord. If the rent being charged is above the limit set down, then the tenant is advised to discuss that with the landlord with a view to reducing the rent or to seek alternative accommodation.

Some 42,000 people had their claims for rent allowance awarded this year, which proves the point that it is possible to have acceptable accommodation provided for tenants without breaching the limits set down. The new maximum rent allowance limits came into force on 1 January 2012 and will apply until June 2013. This has worked in 42,000 cases where the rent sought by the landlord was within the limit set.

This will move from the Department of Social Protection, which currently provides the rent supplement to housing authorities, to a new housing assistance payment scheme which will be introduced as part of the new housing Bill to be published next year. Those looking for suitable accommodation are advised to talk to the landlord in order that the rent is with the limits set. As I said, 42,000 have been awarded this year.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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The answer is "No". The Taoiseach said the State funds 30% of the private rented sector and went on to say that rental supplement is a payment made to tenants. Which is it? If the State is funding the private rented sector, then it can control rents, but it clearly does not. The Taoiseach said 42,000 cases were within the limits set. That is true, but there are also 42,000 cases which must pay top-ups or under-the-counter payments because tenants cannot get accommodation at a rent within the limits set.

The Government has increased the contribution from single tenants by more than 130% since 2008. That has meant that single tenants must increase their top-ups to their landlords by more than 130%. That is the situation in the real world in which people are living. They must pay the top-ups, which landlords are demanding, out of their social welfare payments to keep a roof over their heads. That is leading to a situation where we see soup kitchens opening throughout the country. Is that a situation which the Government wants to see?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For somebody who is able to go to the High Court and the European Court of Justice and who still has not paid his household charge-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----it is a bit Irish.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is not Irish at all.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Let me invite Deputy Pringle-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is a human right.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Maybe Deputy Pringle has put his finger on a button because he said many of these tenants are paying under-the-counter payments to landlords. Does he expect the State, through the Department of Social Protection, to continue to fund landlords whose tenants are expected to pay under-the-counter payments? If he has evidence of under-the-counter payments, I would advise him to bring it into the public arena-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----because the scheme provides that when the tenant applies for accommodation and rent supplement, he or she does so against these maximum limits which have been set. Where rent comes up for review or reassessment, it is against these limits that it is reassessed. Deputy Pringle has told us he has evidence of people who are being forced to pay under-the-counter payments to landlords.

The Deputy should expose that because that is not what this scheme is about. The scheme will last until June 2013 and will be moved to the local authority under the housing Bill, under which a new scheme of assistance payments for accommodation for tenants will be introduced. I await hearing the Deputy's evidence of the under-the-counter payments.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That completes Leaders' Questions. We will proceed to the Order of Business.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Members should remember we are in the House of Parliament. This is not a shouting match, like gurriers on a street shouting at each other. Please behave yourselves.