Dáil debates
Wednesday, 13 June 2012
Private Members' Business
Independent Inquiries into Planning Irregularities: Motion (Resumed)
7:00 pm
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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It is difficult to make the transition from the positive debate on the Common Fisheries Policy when I am addressing the wrong Minister. The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, stated that the findings of the internal review vindicated the decision of her predecessor, Deputy Penrose, not to rush headlong into appointing seven external planning consultants to embark on a costly open ended inquiry. She was in effect asking the public to trust her Department to investigate because it would do what the independent experts cannot and would not cost a lot of money. I recognise that we have no money but this is completely unsatisfactory. I am surprised at the Labour Party because it would not have accepted such an approach when it was in Opposition.
In the aftermath of the Mahon report, we cannot rebuild confidence in the planning system unless we can offer the transparency and accountability which only come with an independent inquiry. An Taisce's State of the Nation report was damning of local authorities and it is interesting to note that the areas with unfinished housing estates are the same as those with vacant estates. I agree with the president of the Irish Planning Institute when he argues that there are too many planning authorities. This is bound to create inconsistencies in the planning system. The Dublin planning authorities, which were the subject of the Mahon report, came out of An Taisce's report better than others. That tells us something.
I do not buy into the claim in the Fianna Fáil motion that the decision was taken because Fine Gael and the Labour Party control particular councils. This is a philosophy which existed for several decades whereby the construction sector dictated a development approach rather than a real planning system. Planning should be aimed at building communities, land use and transportation planning, matching schools and community facilities to housing development and developing water and sewerage infrastructure to allow for a mix of housing and industry. However, our system of development simply aimed to appease the construction industry, from landowners to developers and auctioneers, and this is what funded politics. Those of us who fought for a strategic approach over the last 20 years were called every name under the sun.
I do not think Fianna Fáil possesses the moral authority to table this motion but I agree with most of it and, therefore, will be supporting it. In response to a submission by the Communities for Sustainable Development in Cork, the Ombudsman produced a lengthy report which found systemic problems in the planning system. These systemic problems will not be solved by an internal inquiry which is nothing more than a whitewash.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The termination of these investigations directly contradicts one of the principal recommendations of the Mahon report on establishing an independent regulator who would be free from political pressure. The Government should study the report again. By refusing to reverse the decision to downgrade the investigation, the Government is leaving itself wide open to accusations that it is seeking to reduce autonomy and transparency in the planning system. I concur with my colleague, Deputy Catherine Murphy, that there would be blue murder in the House if this had occurred while the Labour Party was in opposition. There are not many Labour Party Deputies in the Chamber to listen to what we are saying, however.
The dogs in the street know that the property bubble was fuelled by systemic failures in planning. If our planning system worked properly neither the councils nor the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government would have anything to fear from a review. The previous Government did not set these inquiries in motion on a whim. The investigation into Carlow County Council was launched on foot of a damning audit which raised major concerns about the council's compliance with its legal obligations. Furthermore, An Taisce has identified massive flaws in planning policy and implementation in 34 city and county councils. Whatever one thinks of An Taisce and why it operates, does its report not warrant investigation? I have no doubt that planning irregularities in local authorities which were not covered by the original investigation have been buried or glossed over. A probe should also be launched into the recent planning controversy in my constituency of Waterford, where a former Fine Gael councillor was convicted of accepting bribes from a developer. Opinion polls reveal significant support for an investigation and people have contacted me and other councillors and Deputies to demand a response.
There is an onus on the Government in this regard. The general public will not accept any attempt to shy away from these matters and there will be a heavy price to pay if further planning irregularities hit the news in the coming years given what has already been revealed by the Mahon tribunal and An Taisce. The Government was elected on a promise that it would tackle the severe shortcomings of our system of governance. Government Deputies said that on television and radio. Downgrading an independent review sends a clear message that the mandate will not be pursued. It signals to the people that the Government is content to allow the planning system to stagnate in a past already exposed by various tribunals. Allowing that to happen is fundamentally corrupt.
Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I propose to share time with Deputy Dara Murphy. No one did more to destroy confidence in politics and planning in this country than the Fianna Fáil Party. This motion has nothing to do with restoring confidence and trust in planning and politics. As Fianna Fáil seeks to leave its tarnished past behind, it sees the shortest route back to respectability as attempting to tarnish the entire political and governmental system with the filthy brush it made its own for as long as most people in the country can remember. The Mahon tribunal vividly showed that planning corruption was a cottage industry in the Fianna Fáil Party and went all the way to the top. We can trace a line from the genesis of that culture to the collapse of our economy and the difficulties our country faces. As Fianna Fáil faces the future, it suits its purposes to invoke the view that all politicians are the same. Did they not all have their snouts in the trough? The Mahon tribunal demonstrated that the Labour Party did not and Fianna Fáil's cynical attempt to spread the muck will not wash with the Labour Party or the vast majority of the public.
I welcome the publication of the review and I note the comments from the Green Party. The recollection of its members about the design of this process leaves much to be desired and owes more to an attempt to rewrite history and revise its bitter experience in government. It does not have any relationship with the facts. The review is about planning processes. It is useful and valuable but does not represent the end of the process. There is much more to be done. I look forward to the detailed recommendations advanced by the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, in terms of the changes required to the planning system on foot of the Mahon report.
I spent 12 years as a member of two planning authorities acting as a responsible advocate for good, sustainable and sensible planning. I was sometimes a lonely voice, joined only by planners, managers, town clerks and some councillors combatting a sustained feeding frenzy of proposed projects from developers, speculators and landowners who stood to make millions at the stroke of a pen. I was astonished to open my post one morning in the run-up to the 2004 local elections and find a short note wrapped in a cheque for €500 from a well-known and active local developer and landowner. One of his sites was being considered for zoning and he stood to make a considerable profit. At that stage, my local authority was going through the development process. On making inquiries, I found that all of my outgoing colleagues on the council received the same note and unsolicited contribution which was designed, we were assured, to assist the democratic process. I quickly and publicly handed back the cheque and encouraged others to do the same. I cannot know what would have happened if I had decided not to return this unwelcome contribution. Would the matter have come to public attention? Would others have handed it back? The question strikes me whether this still happens. My story is from 2004, eight years ago. Why would someone choose to do this, where else is this happening and how can it be stopped?
There are shortcomings and flaws in the planning process and the political system. We can do everything humanly possible to ensure our planning and political systems are free from corruption but we must also make sure that we, as citizens, select people with the necessary integrity and clarity of character to do the job people are entitled to expect of us. It is up to all of us to expose corruption, wrongdoing, malfeasance and maladministration. We must tighten up administration and decision-making in planning. This does not hermetically seal the planning system. Good officials and good public representatives will make the difference.
Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Like Deputy Nash, I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important issue, which forms part of the programme for Government to reform and improve elements of our planning system. Many Private Members' motions tabled by the Fianna Fáil Party display a remarkable amnesia and brass neck when it comes to the 14 years that preceded the election of this Government. In this instance, it shows remarkable neck and a brazen approach to the House to suggest that the Government is in some way remiss, given the performance of the previous Government and the fact that virtually every planning controversy that erupted was linked in some way to the Fianna Fáil Party.
There is mention of restoring confidence in planning. The most important step in restoring confidence in the planning process was to remove Fianna Fáil from Government 15 months ago. I welcome the fact that the Minister published the report of the planning review yesterday. It is a good analysis of various aspects of our planning system.
Like Deputy Nash, I served as chairperson of Cork City Council's planning committee for a number of years. When a person or business engages in the planning process through the local authority, there are clearly defined timelines. It takes roughly three months for the initial planning application and then a further month. Unfortunately, there are no timelines associated with An Bord Pleanála. From personal experience, this creates insecurity in people who wish to invest in the country and carry out various job creation projects. When legislation is next introduced, a simple measure would be to mirror the timelines of local authorities and require An Bord Pleanála to adopt the same timelines unless there are exceptional or extenuating circumstances requiring additional time. It is unacceptable that a company that wishes to come to the country has a defined period for being granted planning permission but it may not receive planning permission for a year or a year and a half if an appeal has been made to An Bord Pleanála. Many of the larger planning applications go through our local authorities and end up with An Bord Pleanála.
Yesterday's report examined planning practices in seven local authorities and sets out the 12 actions at departmental and local authority levels. I welcome that the Minister of State has committed to implementing the 12 actions, which will enhance transparency and improve consistency. We must be careful because one of the strengths of our planning system is subjectivity. It would be unwelcome to arrive at a point where the subjectivity of individual planners is diluted or removed. There will always be a case where An Bord Pleanála, as an appellant forum, will overturn a certain number of planning permissions. Looking at the ratio between the planning applications granted and the number ultimately upheld or refused by An Bord Pleanála is the most accurate way of determining whether a local authority and its planners are functioning at the optimum level.
My point is to welcome that the Minister of State is acting in an aggressive fashion. She has only been in office for a short time. I wish her well in continuing her job of re-establishing confidence in our planning system. It is a vital component in the job of encouraging investment, work and development in our country.
Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion and I support the report published yesterday by the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. This report examined practices in seven local authorities and it sets out actions to be taken by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and at local authority level, to implement actions to improve consistency, enhance transparency and provide greater public confidence in the planning system nationwide.
Before I was re-elected to this House 15 months ago, I was an elected member of Dublin City Council for more than 30 years. During some of that time, Dublin Corporation was controlled by Fianna Fáil and I will come back to that later. The Fianna Fáil Private Members' motion notes that all of the councils which were under review, bar one, were controlled by Labour and Fine Gael. One of the Dublin City Council planning issues being reviewed was the Seán Dunne multistorey development in Ballsbridge and its planning permission was overturned by An Bord Pleanála on the grounds that the permission granted by Dublin City Council exceeded the height guidelines in the Dublin City Council development plan. I fully agree with An Bord Pleanála's decision in that case and I said so at the time. The decisions to grant or refuse permission is a managerial function under the Planning Act. To suggest otherwise is purely a party political charge. Mr. Seán Dunne accompanied the former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, as a special guest when Bertie addressed the United States Congress during his final term as Taoiseach.
The Private Members' motion recognises the need, in view of the Mahon tribunal, to rebuild public confidence in the planning and political systems. This must take the prize for breathtaking brass neck, so to speak.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is that a bigger prize than Denis O'Brien and Enda Kenny sharing a platform?
Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I ask that I be allowed the time that has been taken. I said I would return-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Which is the bigger prize?
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy Collins, we are short of time.
Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I said I would return-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should mention Denis O'Brien and Enda Kenny, in the interests of balance.
Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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During the time when Dublin Corporation, as it was then, was controlled by Fianna Fáil,-----
Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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-----we had the Quarryvale controversy. The Mahon tribunal found in 1999 that £50,000 was requested-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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How many years ago was that?
Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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-----and received by the then Minister for the Environment, Pádraig Flynn, who was treasurer of Fianna Fáil at the time, from the developer, Tom Gilmartin, as a donation to the party in order to "level the playing field", in connection with the sale of the Dublin Corporation lands at Quarryvale. In 1989, I was an elected councillor of Dublin Corporation and I was completely unaware of that transaction which was taking place behind the scenes. The tribunal found that the then Minister for the Environment used the £50,000 cheque for his personal benefit and that Mr. Gilmartin intended that this cheque was to be paid to Fianna Fáil. The tribunal found that Mr. Flynn corruptly sought this donation from Mr. Gilmartin for the Fianna Fáil Party-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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We are not discussing the Mahon tribunal.
Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Because Fianna Fáil to date has not made an official complaint to the Garda Síochána concerning this corrupt payment, it looks as if the matter may never be pursued. I call on Fianna Fáil to report the Mahon tribunal findings regarding the donation of £50,000 to the Garda Síochána in order to restore public confidence in the political system and which was called for in the Fianna Fáil motion.
8:00 pm
Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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When I sought speaking time on Monday I did so to defend my former county council, Galway County Council, for its record on planning over the course of the years when I was a member of the council. Thankfully, the timely publication of the planning review report on Tuesday afternoon has, in the main, rubbished the concerns of An Tasice. While this report will be further reviewed by an external body, it is worth noting some of the statements within the report as they relate to Galway County Council. The report states:
It is again simply not possible to agree with the claim made by An Taisce that the 25 decisions by the Board set out in the attached dossier collectively constitute an astonishing indictment of the credibility and competence of Galway County Council.
This was a claim made by An Taisce based on 25 planning applications out of a total of 11,000 applications processed in that period. The report further stated:
it is considered that the statistics put forward by An Taisce in support of their complaints do not of themselves suggest any deficiency in the competence of Galway County Council. In fact, the fuller statistical picture (i.e. the rate of appeal of Galway County Council decisions to An Bord Pleanála and the rate of overturn of decisions by the Board) suggests strong consistency of decision making between the Council and the Board. Similarly, it is impossible to conclude from the 25 cases cited that Galway County Council has systematically disregarded the provisions of its own development plan, its obligations under EU or national legislation or the submissions made by other agencies.
I refer to an important finding of the report:
It is considered that there is no evidence to support An Taisce's suggestion that individual officers of Galway County Council, including the County Manager, should be investigated. This is a very serious matter which, particularly in the context of the recent Mahon report, has the potential to unfairly tarnish and undermine the reputation and standing of personnel within the County Council.
I condemn the assertion made by An Taisce and I support the findings in the report regarding the officials of Galway County Council. The council has 30 members and from my experience as a member of the council, members work well together in the interests of their constituents. Fine Gael and Labour, together with independents, socialists, Sinn Féin and former members of the Progressive Democrats, have worked together to provide a majority control from 2004 to the present day, in two different pacts on Galway County Council. Non-members of these pacts, mainly Fianna Fáil members, worked well on decisions and in general, with the exception of budgetary matters, there were very few rows on the council. Therefore, I find it difficult to understand the relevance of the reference in the Fianna Fáil notice of motion regarding the controlling role of the council. The role of the majority on the council is to ensure a budget is passed and to elect the mayor or chairman. Councillors have no role in planning decisions, save for material contraventions, of which there are few and all EU and national legislation was clearly outlined to members during the preparation of the county development plan. I do not recall any great divisions between any of the parties on the council with regard to the county development plan or on the preparation of local area plans.
There were frictions in the preparation of the county development plan with regard to EU designations being implemented or inserted into the county development plan. All members were of the view that the EU had too much influence on policies. However, on the advice of the manager and the director of services for planning, all relevant legislation was inserted into the plans, including the production of an appropriate environmental assessment. In Connemara, where I served as a councillor, over 75% of the land mass, excluding afforested land, is designated under EU regulations and there will always be friction between designations and the wishes or the views of members of the local authority and the right of local people to live within their own communities.
In one case, a small rural-based industry applied for planning permission to extend its premises in order to grow and create employment. This was granted by the county council but was refused on appeal by An Bord Pleanála. The argument by An Taisce was that this business should close down and relocate to a zoned area within a neighbouring town. Most members of a local authority would be of the view that local small business should be permitted to expand.
I welcome the publication of the report and I condemn the suggestions of untoward behaviour by members of Galway County Council or officials of the council, as cited by An Taisce and I sincerely believe that the external report and review will uphold the findings of the planning report. There has been concern within Galway County Council that the reputation of the planning authority was damaged by the actions of An Taisce in reviewing only 25 out of 11,000 planning applications.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Fianna Fáil motion is both opportunistic and simplistic. It is aimed at tarnishing everyone in order to dilute the findings of the Mahon report. It is full of red herrings and the issues raised in the motion are different from the ones covered by the Mahon tribunal. The Mahon tribunal found specific wrongdoings by some individuals who were basically motivated by profit. There were also councillors who acted in their own self interest to help those people, rather than their constituents. Some of those people were from Fianna Fáil.
In responding to what happened in the Mahon tribunal, local democracy should not be the scapegoat. There are many good councillors, including from Fianna Fáil. Instead of tabling this kind of opportunistic motion, Fianna Fáil's job should be to take on board the findings of the Mahon tribunal concerning the actions of its own councillors in the past.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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That party should defend democracy and not try to paint everybody with the same brush, because that serves Fianna Fáil badly and does not help to protect democracy.
The planning issue that has not been highlighted either by the United Left Alliance or Sinn Féin is that some people can still become very rich from rezoning decisions. If that aspect of planning is not addressed it will happen in future as well. In order to address that matter, the Kenny report needs to be implemented. If that were done, when land is rezoned for residential and other developments local authorities could purchase it for its agricultural value plus 25%. That is what was recommended in 1973 by the Kenny report and it is required now. If it had been done earlier, we would have a very different landscape both politically and in terms of the developments that have occurred.
I have already criticised one proposal in the Mahon report. On the one hand, it found that planning powers have been too centralised in the hands of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, while the same paragraph recommends that those powers should be handed over lock, stock and barrel to an independent planning regulator. The report goes further in handing that regulator even more powers, including what I would consider to be legislative ones.
We know from our history and from recent findings in the reports of tribunals, that unelected officials are just as capable of having corrupt officials among them. There is an idea that an elected official is worse but at least an elected official is accountable to the electorate. People should be held accountable at the ballot box for democratic decisions. It is important that planning powers remain in elected hands and that local communities have a say in what is done in their areas. Local people have something to say on matters that affect them.
I also wish to criticise the response by An Taisce to the Mahon tribunal report. An Taisce's instincts are - like the Green Party's - profoundly anti-democratic. An Taisce proposed, for example, a reduction in the number of planning authorities and, instead, a further centralising of planning decisions. One aspect of the wrong planning decisions that were taken in the Dublin County Council area in the period covered by the Mahon tribunal report was that councillors from Swords were making planning decisions about Tallaght. They could then hide behind the fact that they were not local councillors and could never be held accountable by the local electorate. We should therefore not centralise planning any further. We need to retain local democracy and strengthen it, as well as making it more participative.
The motion before us does not serve the kind of debate we need to have on planning. It is a knee-jerk reaction which says, "Let's spread the blame as widely as possible" and "Let's make outrage about everything". Instead, however, we should be asking why particular things were done and why they happened. To that end, the Kenny report needs to be implemented.
Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I entirely agree with my colleague, Deputy Joanna Tuffy. She and I have the distinction - if that is the right word to use - of living in the area which has probably been most adversely affected by bad planning decisions in the State. We have what was meant to be a town centre for Lucan-Clondalkin, which is not in the centre but very much off-centre. I am referring to the Liffey Valley shopping centre, which should have been about 1.5 miles south west of there so that it could have served properly the new communities that were developing both in Clondalkin and Lucan. That did not happen, however, because of the abuses that were investigated by the Mahon tribunal.
While it is right for Fianna Fáil, as an opposition party, to try to keep the Government on its toes concerning any issue, including planning, it amazes me that this motion can be brought before us. There are so many practical examples of bad planning. I have mentioned the town centre not being a centre, and it will never be possible for it to be such. We also have a railway station which was supposed to be in the centre of the whole area, which is actually surrounded by the one area of open land that is left in that state. It is yet another example of appalling planning, which came about because of the behaviour of Fianna Fáil councillors who were, sadly, supported by considerable numbers of Fine Gael councillors, though not all.
The report that was issued yesterday is not another Mahon tribunal report. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, for issuing it and I have no doubt that she will act upon it. She has listed a series of recommendations that will commence immediately. Most of those recommendations do not relate to what councillors are involved in; they relate more to inadequacies in the operation of planning departments in various councils. It is right that those should be focused on.
It is important to use these debates to do two things: first, to focus on local government reform and, second, to try to improve the state of politics. Trying to spread dirt on the subject does not help any of us.
Many serious local government issues are not dealt with by this review because it is narrowly focused. We should examine the whole area more widely, however. Developers give development levies to county councils when they construct an estate. They are very important to councils in order to deliver infrastructure. The council in my area has benefitted considerably from such levies but they have a potentially corrupting influence. I have no reason to believe that any council officials or councillors have benefited financially in any way from such a situation but there is a temptation for councils to decide to allow a development to go ahead because of the money it will bring in for them. That is not necessarily a good basis on which to make a decision. The decision should be based on whether a development is appropriate and useful for the area, rather than being influenced in any way by the fact that it will bring in money that will help the council to deliver services, which of course are important.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I regret I must ask Deputy Dowds to conclude. We are over time. The next speaker is Deputy Michael Kitt, whom I understand is sharing time with Deputies Calleary, Troy and McConalogue.
Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and thank Deputy Niall Collins for tabling this motion. Many speakers have spoken about the need for confidence in the planning system and for us to learn from past mistakes, of which there were many. If there is confidence in the system, there should be no fear of inquiries, which has, in part, been the reaction down through the years when inquiries were undertaken.
I welcome the Government's report and support the proposal that it be forwarded to the Joint Committee on the Environment, Transport, Culture and the Gaeltacht in order that recommendations can be made. In spite of the fact that politicians do not make planning decisions, they have a bad name in respect of planning issues. Bad decisions were made in respect of zoning, a culture which led to over-supply in many parts of the country, which, in turn, affected water quality and supply.
We are all aware of the intervention of former Minister, Mr. Gormley, with some councils. Former Minister, Mr. Eamon Ryan, referred this morning to the madness of some county development plans. It is now two years since the summer of 2010 when the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Mr. Gormley, announced a review. That review has been going on a long time. There is a need for some progress to be made on these reviews.
I was interested to hear the comments last night and tonight about An Taisce, which has referred to the need to appoint an independent regulator in the planning system, a point taken up by many environmental correspondents. We are all familiar with the good work done by An Taisce in terms of green flags in schools and blue flags on beaches. In An Taisce's State of the Nation: A Review of Ireland's Planning System 2010-2011 Galway City Council did very well but Galway County Council did not do too well. It states that while Galway city fared best the county's failure to properly control where housing development took place placed an incredible burden on the city. I do not agree with that. Galway City Council and Galway County Council are separate housing authorities, as is Ballinasloe town in the county. While I would welcome consultations between those bodies, it is up to each of them to make their decisions. While there were difficulties in the county in terms of decisions not being made in the best interests, it was not all about the city.
On unfinished housing estates, we need to build on the initiative taken by former Minister of State with responsibility for housing and planning, Deputy Penrose. On rural housing - I live in a rural area - I regret that rural housing has been abandoned. I say this as Fianna Fáil spokesperson on this issue. I note that this year Galway County Council has received funding for only a handful of rural housing, possibly two or three. The people concerned are living in poor housing conditions and wish to live in rural Ireland. Mistakes have been in regard to development on flood plains and low lying land, which again is evident in my own county. One knows there are problems when people have to be relocated, as happened in the 1990s and may happen again as a result of the 2009 flooding.
I support Deputy Kyne's comments on the 25 applications in Galway which were investigated between 2007 and 2009, the bulk of which were overturned by An Bord Pleanála. I understand that the appeal rate was 4%, which is half the national rate. As a result the Department did not support the complainants' assertions. Some 11,000 applications were dealt with by Galway County Council at that time.
I welcome the intention to appoint an independent consultant. However, I would go much further and appoint a permanent watchdog. Mr. Frank McDonald states in an article in today's The Irish Times that a planning watchdog is unlikely to be appointed. That is his view. I would be disappointed if that were the case. We must reopen the independent inquiries and build confidence in the planning process.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank my colleague, Deputy Niall Collins, for giving us the opportunity to have this debate. We had two days debate following publication of the Mahon report. Much of the focus of that debate and in other fora was on the personalities involved in the Mahon tribunal, the amount of money involved and the disciplinary action that followed. No one focused on the recommendations on planning. I say that in the context of 99% of public representatives who have served in a council chamber or in this House having done so in the best interests of their communities. It is unfortunate that the remaining 1% have sullied all of our names and reputations. Some 99% of officials in all local authorities are good. I say that in the context of my daily dealings with officials in Mayo County Council and the three town councils. We are lucky to have them. They are far-seeing, decent and work 24/7. However, we need to have a full discussion on planning and where it is going and to reflect on the many mistakes made in the past ten years.
I remind people of the noughties when the biggest issue facing us was getting people a house. While many of the planning decisions made at that time are now considered to have been mad, the biggest issue then facing public representatives and of public debate was the shortage of housing units. People could not get a house or were paying bizarre amounts of money for one. It must be remembered that that debate was going on at a time when many of the decisions, which are now being criticised in the context of where we are now, were being made. We must be conscious of this in the context of all future decisions.
One of the difficulties of the Mahon report, and of any other reports which are published on this issue, is the focus on personalities and councils involved. We need to bring the debate back, as was done to some extent by Deputies Tuffy and Dowds, to the consequences for those people living in the communities involved. For instance, we have a serious problem in terms of unfinished estates. The only good thing to come out of this debacle was the household charge, which because of the manner in which it was handled by the Department, means we now have a register of so-called unfinished estates. Now that we have it, the work commenced by former Minister of State, Deputy Penrose, which the Minister of State, Deputy O'Sullivan, is now continuing, to complete these unfinished estates can begin. That register, in conjunction with SOLAS and the local employment agencies, can be utilised to finish these estates.
Deputy Dowds mentioned development levies, which councils used as revenue during the so-called boom times. What was done with that revenue in some areas is questionable. This initiative - I acknowledge that councils are currently under enormous pressure - could be funded by a levy on councils which were paid development levies. Some councils spent that money on gleaming headquarters and others spent it on infrastructure projects. However, the original intention of the development levy was that it would be spent on facilities in an area rather than on homages to architects and so on. We need the councils, as well as Government, to take responsibility for this initiative.
I facilitated an initiative in an unfinished estate where luckily the bond was still in place. While the amount available was not enough to finish the work, many of the residents who were skilled carpenters, brick layers and so on, got together with council labourers and finished it. We are looking at doing this in other areas where the bond can still be spent. Unfortunately, for many estates the bond is gone. There are tens of thousands of unemployed crafts people in this country and hundreds of unfinished estates. If we knock together a few heads in the Departments of the Environment, Community and Local Government and Social Protection these two needs can be met in a relatively cost effective manner. Much of the commentary and ding dong of the past two evenings has been about officials, councils and what is a proper planning authority. Everybody is agreed we have too many planning authorities in the State but let us not throw out the baby with the bath water by centralising in into one superquango answerable to nobody, which, quite frankly, is a bit like what An Bord Pleanála is at present. Nobody can question its decisions. If one wants to appeal a decision of An Board Pleanála one must take a judicial review and who has the money to do this? While I respect it must be independent, it must also be accountable as a State agency.
Some people, and I include the previous Minister, would like us to live in a planning ivory tower where everything is perfect and laid out wonderfully and we all live close to where we are supposed to live. However, this is Ireland, which is a rurally-based country with a settlement pattern dating back hundreds of years which does not lend itself to ivory tower-style planning policies. We must be realistic about this and we must be fair to people who choose to live in rural areas and want to have facilities. They are willing to pay for these facilities and do so dearly through levies and charges. The notion that everybody should live in a town and travel to the country at weekends is wrong and should be knocked on the head. However, it is what some people would like us to do. In other debates we discuss the closure of schools, the withdrawal of services and rural school transport because in many counties people do not get the chance to live in rural areas because of policies made in ivory towers where everything is perfect. Fortunately, as politicians we live in the real world and we must try to represent people.
The notion of centralising into one planning authority which decides everything for the country is wrong. There needs to be local input. However, at present too many local authorities are involved in planning. Town councils are fighting with county councils and city councils are fighting with county councils about land, as the Minister of State knows better than anybody. This does not make for a good government and certainly does not make for good planning. I hope when Minister publishes his review of local government he will face up to this.
I have been listening to other speakers in the debate and it seems just because we proposed something on planning all hell and damnation was unleashed upon us from the other side of the House. We are the only party, along with Fine Gael, to take disciplinary action against everybody mentioned and cited in the Mahon report.
Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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On a point of information, only one member of the Labour Party-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Through the Chair please, thank you.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Dowds just made the point for Deputy Calleary. Well done. The Labour Party was involved.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We took very tough action and we are continuing this process.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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On a point of information, one member of the Labour Party was involved and that person was kicked out-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is no such thing as a point of information.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I did not mention the Labour Party.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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There was a member of the Labour Party.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What I am saying is that we have faced up to this as a party and dealt with it in the most severe way we could. We have a right to stand here and make suggestions on the future of planning in the country. For Deputies in the Labour Party to throw across the floor that it is all our fault is wrong.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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That is a simplistic view of what was said.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We have taken action and it must be acknowledged that as a party we took very strong action as soon as the report from the Mahon tribunal was available to us.
Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It was 20 years too late.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There is a thing called justice, Deputy Dowds.
Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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They were doing huge damage.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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There is court procedure.
As I stated at the outset, we need to consider where we are going with regard to planning. Let us forget about the personalities and everything else. We must consider what to do to repair the damage that has been done and give those living in unfinished estates throughout the country some idea that their investments will be protected and the estates will be repaired. If heads are knocked together in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Department of Social Protection, surely a scheme can be put together to ensure this happens.
As Deputies Dowds and Tuffy mentioned, communities are without facilities. Perhaps now that we have a register of unfinished estates the next central project to address the issue will be an audit of education, transport and retail facilities in communities such as those in Dublin Mid West so we can start working on putting these facilities in place now, when it may be easier to do so than it will be in a few years time and than it was previously.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome this opportunity to speak on the important motion before the House. We all want to restore public confidence in our planning process. In doing so I acknowledge mistakes were made in the past and we have had the Mahon and Moriarty tribunals. For my part I am deeply ashamed and embarrassed of people associated with my party who were named in the reports. As my colleague, Deputy Calleary, stated swift and comprehensive action has been taken by the party to deal with this.
I want to follow on from a point made by Deputy Calleary. I will not be crucified for the sins of my father or my forefathers. I have a democratically elected mandate to be here as a Deputy for the constituency of Longford-Westmeath, and I am an Opposition spokesperson. It behoves all of us to hold the Government to account and the planning process is an extremely important issue on which we must hold the Government to account. Freedom of information requests have shown that despite what Ministers and backbenchers have stated, work had already started on establishing independent inquiries into the named counties. It is a pity that one of the first acts of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government was to shelve it. I acknowledge that on foot of this debate being tabled the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, who is in the Chamber, brought forward a list of 12 recommendations on what she will do.
Mistakes were made by members of all political parties and none and we need to learn from these mistakes. I want to concentrate on those who have really suffered because of the disastrous decisions, namely, those in communities left bereft of much needed facilities, those in unfinished housing estates, and the many small businesses in small towns suffering because bad planning allowed big supermarkets to develop on the far outskirts of towns and ripped the heart out of town centres. I am glad that Westmeath County Council, of which I was a member, fought tooth and nail to prevent a big multinational supermarket develop on the outskirts of a town which would have decimated the town centre. Small businesses find it difficult enough to survive in the recession without having to compete with huge businesses on the outskirts of towns.
The one benefit of county development plans is that democratically elected councillors have a say in them. When I stood in the local elections for the first time in 2004, one of the biggest issues in County Westmeath was the difficulty for people to build one-off rural houses. It is very important for the future sustainability of rural Ireland that we ensure people bred, born and reared in an area who will contribute to the local community and are entitled to build a house there can do so, and we did this in County Westmeath. As my colleague has said, it is only by allowing development in rural areas that we will have the people there to sustain the services, which, unfortunately, the Government seems determined to take away. It wants to close our one and two-teacher schools and our rural Garda stations, and impose septic tank charges. There is a raft of proposals representing a direct attack on rural areas.
We need to focus on how we can make a difference to the people who lost the most from the poor planning decisions, who are those without services in their communities and living in unfinished housing estates. One of the last things the former Government did was to allocate money to local authorities to help them move into unfinished housing estates and introduce critical safety measures in order to at least make the estates safe for the families living there. We should consider doing more of that. The management team from Longford County Council recently made a presentation to an Oireachtas committee on the works it has carried out in the past 18 months on which I commend it. The difference after those top class works was unbelievable. A small amount of money can make a big difference to the aesthetics and safety these housing estates, and more importantly to the people who are living there and paying big mortgages.
I have no hesitation in speaking on the matters about which I feel strongly. The time has come for Government Deputies to stop telling us we cannot afford to speak about what was done previously by members of our party. The 19 of us in this Chamber were democratically elected to serve our constituency and the country. We have offered and will continue to offer constructive opposition. We will hold the Government to account where we feel it needs to be held to account. We have offered meaningful solutions to the many problems people are facing on a daily basis.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I commend Deputy Niall Collins on tabling the motion, covering many important planning issues. There have been failures in planning in the past and it is important to have a well-regulated and transparent system in the future.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and the Minister, Deputy Hogan, for being here today. In particular, I welcome the Minister, Deputy Hogan back to the political fray.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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He is back to active politics.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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His absence during the referendum campaign was frequently remarked upon in Donegal where he is a well-known figure.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I noted with amusement that at ten o'clock on the night of the referendum as soon as the polls were closed, the Minister, Deputy Hogan, was back with his announcement on the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I was cleaning up the planning mess left by the Deputy's predecessors.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Opposition politics was considerably less interesting when the Minister was on his short sabbatical.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I was cleaning up another mess.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could the Deputy stick to the motion, please?
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, was also suitably energised by his referendum break and has been going at it with gusto in recent weeks. Reform will be an important part of the Government's work during its term in office. From the point of view of the Ministers, Deputies Hogan and Shatter, it is a good job the Government has not been as active in holding referendums as often as it promised because otherwise the two of them might have had even more extended breaks. Jesting aside-----
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are winning anyway.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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It won, indeed, and it was a well-fought campaign and an important decision for the country.
I return to the point I made about the appetite among the public for reform at the time of the general election. The two parties in Government created that hunger with the platform they put forward in promising reform if elected to government. However, what has been achieved so far has been a grave disappointment. We had many policy mistakes in the past and our political system failed to signpost some of the challenges that would come down the road. It certainly failed in pinpointing a growing problem in the banking sector, which is a large part of the issue we need to address now. In the past our political system failed in how we dealt with our planning systems. The Mahon and Moriarty tribunals represent two very costly examples of how planning was mishandled in the past and how it corrupted the political system owing to a lack of regulation and a lack of clear guidelines.
When the Minister came into office, the Moriarty and Mahon tribunals were nearing completion and independent investigations had been set up into the local authorities by the former Minister, Mr. John Gormley, as outlined in tonight's motion. Instead of taking an approach of transparency, trying to reform the system and ensuring nothing was left covered up, the Minister's first action, unfortunately, was to close down those independent investigations that had been initiated.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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They had not started. Nothing was closed down.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Freedom of information requests have been submitted since the Minister's assertion that nothing had started which showed that work had started on that. Instead of pursing this the Minister set up internal audits, which had been undertaken even before the former Minister, Mr. Gormley, ever got to the stage of launching independent investigations. It was a very poor start if the Government wanted to ensure nothing was left covered up or even the appearance that something might be covered up.
I urge the Minister to go down the route of an independent investigation. The report published by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, indicated it was acceptable to have internal audits in respect of issues that may have arisen. However, when it comes to implementing the 12 reform points, she considers it necessary to bring in a consultant.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I announced I was appointing an outside person.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but only to oversee the reforms.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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It was acceptable to have an internal audit to assess whether there was a problem in the first place, of which one would imagine it would be most important to have an outside person take charge. However, now when it comes to implementing the reforms, the Minister of State is bringing in outside consultants. In the interest of moving on and ensuring that no question is left over decisions taken in any of these local authorities, an independent investigation should be held.
I wish to emphasise how this relates to the wider issue of real reform. We need to reform our system to ensure the way we do business is open and gives the best type of government for the public. The Minister's actions so far on political reform have seen him row back on the number of Deputies he plans to cut for the next Dáil. That was not really reform because it was simply tinkering at the edges. There has not been anything significant in that regard. We have also seen no movement on Seanad reform. Again, simply putting forward a motion to abolish that body is a very simplistic way of trying to show action, but it does not make any change to the way our political system operates.
I commend Deputy Collins on this motion and ask the Minister to do the right thing and conduct independent investigations.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I begin by thanking Fianna Fáil for this gift of a Private Members' motion. Somebody should tell them that it is the role of the Opposition to oppose.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is a gift.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Parties do this by highlighting what they see as the shortcomings of incumbent Governments. Opposition parties do not normally raise issues for debate that draw attention, yet again, to the rampant evasion, corruption and duplicity that existed at the highest levels of their party.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What about Dungarvan?
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has started very well.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If I was a member of Fianna Fáil and I wanted to make this Government uncomfortable-----
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Moriarty tribunal, for example.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----I would steer well clear of planning. Fianna Fáil should probably also avoid debates on whether it is plausible that a Minister for Finance would not have a bank account, how a modestly paid Taoiseach can afford to own an island, if a win on the horses is enough to explain away Byzantine complexity in somebody's personal finances or the catalogue of decision making that characterised what happened in the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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What about standing on the balcony of the New York Stock Exchange with Denis O'Brien?
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What about big extensions for Ministers' houses?
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Last night, Fianna Fáil Deputies tried once more, with the help of Sinn Féin, to create a smokescreen to deflect attention from their appalling record on planning. Deputy McGrath was a member of Fianna Fáil as well.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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With goldfish-like memories, they have already expunged the criticisms so damningly levelled at their party by the Mahon tribunal. The Government has not forgotten and will not forget.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Tá siad ag fanacht.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Since the Mahon report was delivered in March, the Fianna Fáil Party has seized on the planning review, which was initiated when it was in office but was not followed through, as a means to deflect attention from the fact that during its time in government it rode roughshod over proper planning and sustainable development at local and national levels.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I prefer to take the time this evening to focus on the report and not waste more time rehashing the litany of planning catastrophes for which Fianna Fáil has been responsible.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is wasting a lot of time waffling around in circles.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The starting point for the review dates back to June 2010 when the then Minister, former Deputy John Gormley, announced an independent review involving seven local authorities. When he left office more than seven months later, he had still not commenced the reviews. What he had done was issue a request for tenders for the carrying out of a review and issue letters to potential panellists regarding provisional appointment to a panel of planning experts pending confirmation of certain conditions.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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We know the timeline. The Minister should tell us what he is doing about it.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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He left office in January 2011 before appointing a single expert. It must be made clear that the suggestion that he had instigated an independent investigation before he left office and that this was subsequently downgraded is not the case. However, that does not suit the argument.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He is not here to defend himself.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McGrath is due to speak next.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We have to get the facts correct.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is incorrect even to suggest that he had investigations in mind in the first instance. His announcement in June 2010, when he was in government with Fianna Fáil, referred to a planning review, not an investigation. His proposed review had not been commenced. It was intended to be a review rather than an investigation. No contract had been awarded, no preferred tenderer had been selected and former Deputy Gormley's successor, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, did not progress the matter further.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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That is the speech the Minister of State gave last night.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The seven authorities had been selected by John Gormley, he had set the parameters for the review and he had selected the issues in each case to be reviewed. He did nothing more. Our rigorous review, which was carried out by the Department and which we will now subject to full independent scrutiny, showed no evidence whatsoever of corruption or malfeasance. The decision made by the former Minister of State, Deputy Willie Penrose, which I supported and which was followed through by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, proved to be prudent and correct.
Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin Deputies should note that nobody in this Government stopped any inquiries. We will act decisively, rather than do nothing, on the issues at stake at present. It is being described as a whitewash by Deputy Niall Collins. It is either a very long, fully transparent, detailed and comprehensive whitewash, or perhaps it is a fair and balanced analysis of the issues originally brought to John Gormley's attention, and on which the Deputy said nothing at the time. The reception the report has received in certain quarters would suggest that some people would prefer the Government to plant evidence on the planning authorities involved, point to this and have seven county managers put in stocks on trumped-up charges. We are not prepared to do that.
The report states clearly that it is not giving a clean bill of health to the entire planning system. It concludes, however, that in these seven cases there is no evidence of wrongdoing. We do not make the claim that wrongdoing will not be found anywhere in the planning system. Thanks to the conduct of many people over the last couple of decades, it will be some time before anybody can make that claim. The planning review has identified areas of policy and practice which, quite bluntly, do not measure up. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has stated her intention to act swiftly on these, and I will support her in her work.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy McGrath has five minutes.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is not half enough time but déanfaidh mé mo dhíchil-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps Deputy Collins will give you some of his time.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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No, he has enough to say too. We have to rebut all those allegations. Even though I am not a member of Fianna Fáil, I hate to hear spurious claims made about a party I was proud to belong to for many years.
I sympathise with the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, because she is a reasonable person. Unfortunately, the man beside her is not a reasonable person and has not shown himself to be reasonable in any policy he has introduced, such as the bungled water services Bill, which he still has not introduced but which he promised he would do in Clonmel many months ago. He then promised a fiver Monday, to get away slightly from the motion, when one could register for a fiver. That registration process is not working even now. It is shameful.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Deputy would get back to planning.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Of course I will return to planning. There are also the outrageous charges he made just now.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Where is the Deputy's little basket?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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We will all be forced to have a basket. I did not say anything that was not nice about the Minister of State. I said she was a decent, hard working Minister, unlike the person beside her-----
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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-----who wishes to bully his way through and who was able to tell me in another part of this House - he can deny it when he is asked elsewhere - that he would make sure the constituency boundaries would be sorted out in such a way that I would not be here. Talk about independence and arrogance.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, ask the Deputy to withdraw that.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister said that.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Deputy to withdraw that remark.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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No, you said it.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, that is a serious charge.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are impugning the Minister and saying he is deliberately fixing the boundaries.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Yes, I believe it.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please withdraw that remark.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Withdraw that remark.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Withdraw that remark.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He told me to my face.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, withdraw the remark.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He told me to my face.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Well, you can say it was said in a jocose way but you withdraw the remark.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He made it in a jocose way but it is a funny joke when it comes from Phil.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We do not impugn people's reputations.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am not doing that.
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Has the Deputy withdrawn the remark?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I said it was said in a jocose way but it will be a different joke tomorrow. It is all a joke as far as the Minister is concerned. As was correctly said by the speaker before the Minister, he was kept hidden for three weeks during the referendum campaign, as was the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should continue on the motion.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am trying to discuss the planning, a Cheann Comhairle, but it was very hard to listen to that diatribe for the last five minutes. It distracts one completely from what one wishes to say.
One need go no further than Dungarvan to see who was involved in the planning scandal. It is down the road from the Minister. He need go no further than the Moriarty tribunal report to see what happened. He has a brass neck to allege all these things about other parties. I know that people in the Fianna Fáil Party and in other parties and other individuals were involved in unsavoury practices, but the Minister did not go very far and did not look in the mirror to find out where they were and what they were doing. He promised much reform before the last election, as did the Labour Party, but all we got was a change of personnel in this Chamber. They just swapped seats and went off to see Angela et al and bowed down and listened to them before obeying and asking how high to jump.
The former Minister, former Deputy Gormley, had initiated investigations.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Ministers can spin it whatever way they wish but they were initiated. They can ask his colleague, Eamon Ryan. Mr. Gormley has retired from politics and is not here to defend himself.
Big Phil arrived in and told the lads in Carlow-Kilkenny: "Don't worry. We will put the foot down on them and make sure there will be no more about that. That is okay in other counties but it cannot happen in Carlow-Kilkenny." The same happened with the recommendations about the constituency boundaries. Carlow-Kilkenny is untouched. He spent €1 million to save money-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will you get away from the constituencies? We are talking about planning.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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This is a fact. This is what the Minister is doing.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is no report produced yet.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He is like a train or a steamroller that cannot be stopped. A sum of €1 million can go into Waterford city instead of offices for Kilkenny County Council.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is in County Kilkenny. I accept that. I know my geography. It is hanging into Waterford. If there was any type of tremor, it would fall into it. The Minister knows that as well as I do. However, that is the way he wishes to behave.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has one minute left.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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As I have said in respect of the Mahon tribunal and others, they are there for the Government to act on. In the same way, it could not make time available this week to discuss another issue of the House, which the Ceann Comhairle had rightly rejected under his own Standing Order. I believe the Government could have given time, had it so wished but it might not suit it because things-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry Deputy, what has this got to do with the motion?
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It relates to the cavalier way in which the Minister addressed the motion tabled by Deputy Niall Collins, whom I compliment on tabling this motion. To take a lecture from the Minister, Deputy Hogan-----
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy still a member of Fianna Fáil?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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As the Deputy does not know what he is a member of, bí ciúin.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry Deputy, I now call on Deputy Niall Collins.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle. In summary, the debate has been quite a useful exercise in which Members have engaged over the last two evenings-----
Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Members were going well until then.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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-----in a discussion on planning. It intrigues me to observe how Labour Party Members in particular are quite uncomfortable when discussing planning. I will go into further detail in a few minutes.
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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I am not a bit uncomfortable in discussing planning.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I have described what the Minister of State published yesterday as a whitewash and I do so for the following reasons. She has come up with 12 recommendations and I will provide a flavour of some of them. She mentions material contraventions and consolidation of the planning Acts. She refers to reminding local authorities of the need to review policies regularly, to communication, to planning policy and to the holding of town hall meetings. All this sort of stuff should be taking place in any event.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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They were the specifications of the former Minister, Mr. Gormley. He issued them.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry Minister, please.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The executives of local authorities should be doing this each day of the week. The point is that a number of complaints were made that had a degree of substance and coming up with 12 recommendations and asking someone independent to implement recommendations-----
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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That is not what I am asking.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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-----when an independent person should be holding such inquiries. That is the point.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We are implementing the recommendations. The independent person-----
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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She has consistently sought-----
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry Minister, would you please refrain from across-the-floor discussion?
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The Deputy is misrepresenting me.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You must go through the Chair.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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-----to get away from the fact that there were inquiries ready to go.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Through the Chair, the Deputy is misrepresenting me.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Letters of appointment were ready to issue and all the Minister of State had to do was to push the green button in this regard. There has been a consistent theme in this debate, namely, a policy of the parties in government to try continually to rubbish the Green Party and to rubbish John Gormley-----
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil did that themselves for long enough.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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-----in respect of planning policy. If there is anything one can say about John Gormley and the Green Party, it is that they have high standards in respect of planning policy. This charge has been led by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, who has just happened to leave the Chamber.
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has changed his tune.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The Minister has left to attend a Cabinet sub-committee meeting.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputies.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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One should consider his track record and his credibility because he continually calls into question John Gormley's credibility. He campaigned against the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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He went around the country, spoke at public meetings and promised to reverse it. However, when he entered office, he commenced the legislation. Similarly, he opposed the Wildlife (Amendment) Act relating to the Ward Union stag hunt. He went around the country and told every group, including RISE!, that Fine Gael would reverse it.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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What has this to do with planning?
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It relates to the credibility of the man who was sitting beside the Minister of State a few minutes ago. He will say one thing when in opposition but will say another and will act completely differently when he is in government. The point is that-----
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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A Cheann Comhairle, the Deputy is impugning the reputation of someone who is not present.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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While he could have remained here, he ran out the door.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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He has a Cabinet sub-committee meeting to attend.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The point is a number of complaints were made to the Minister of State's Department by the Office of the Ombudsman and the local government auditor. These were not spurious complaints lodged by people from the sides of the streets or by a couple of cranks. They were made by reputable organisations and the Minister, who has left the Chamber, has conveniently sought to try to rubbish some of the complaints that were made in this regard. I note the Minister of State becomes very uncomfortable when the facts are pointed out to this House. Fine Gael and the Labour Party have the majority of the membership of more than two thirds of local authorities nationwide but continue to default back to the Mahon report, which pertains to events back in 1992, a time when most of the younger members of the Fianna Fáil Party had barely completed their leaving certificate exams.
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's lineage in Fianna Fáil is well known.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Members of the aforementioned two parties, along with all other local authority members nationwide, grossly over-zoned land. I do not make this point for the benefit of Members in the Chamber but for the benefit of those outside who may be listening. Fine Gael and the Labour Party were party to the building up of the property bubble. They were party to the building up of the complete oversupply of zoned land in Ireland.
Ann Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
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The Labour Party did not.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The idea that a Fianna Fáil Member is saying this is incredible.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Moreover, it is a fact that enough land was over-zoned in Ireland to build 1.5 million houses. When one is a member of a local authority, as were members of Fine Gael and the Labour Party and my own-----
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes, the Deputy's party.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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-----one is involved in making development plans and local area plans in which one zones land. The Government parties display a complete absence of responsibility for the local authorities they control because they do not wish to recognise and accept they played a significant part in over-zoning the supply of land, which helped to build up the property bubble.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Who was responsible for it?
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fact. Another point worth noting is the Minister of State did an interview on RTE radio with Mary Wilson yesterday, in which she referred to Fianna Fáil, the Mahon report and criminality in the same sentence. When she was challenged on it, she withdrew it.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I withdrew it in respect of criminality.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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However, if the Minister of State wishes to talk about criminality, what has she to hide?
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I will turn to the position in Waterford, which was not one of the seven local authorities named. There was a finding of corruption and criminality in the criminal courts in Waterford.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is because Mr. Gormley did not pick Waterford.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that two members of my party were involved in voting for the rezoning in question. However, my party called for and continues to call for an independent inquiry into events in Waterford and on the day it did so, the now-departed Minister stated there was no prima facie evidence for an inquiry in Waterford. He stated this even though all the members of the local authority in Waterford were interviewed as part of a Garda investigation prior to zoning land and they still went ahead and zoned the land. The Minister of State and the man who was sitting beside her do not think that it is in the public interest. It is fully within the public interest that the people have a right and an entitlement to know what happened in Waterford.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The reason is that John Gormley did not pick Waterford.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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A serious breakdown of the system took place in Waterford and speakers in this House earlier this evening referred to this matter. However, all the Government speakers this evening defaulted back to the Mahon report. The Mahon tribunal covered a period up to 1992. I refer to what has happened since then and Members opposite cannot keep defaulting away from it. Moreover, if they wish to talk about tribunals of inquiry, Members can discuss the Moriarty tribunal.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil is still at it.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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There has been no acceptance from the Government of the day of responsibility in respect of the Moriarty tribunal. Deputy Enda Kenny has not stated, publically, privately or anywhere that he accepts the findings of the Moriarty tribunal.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is rubbish. That is not true.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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That is a terrible state of affairs.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is not accurate.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should stick to planning.
Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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What about Charlie Haughey? What about Liam Lawlor?
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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While Members opposite can give a history lesson-----
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is sound advice.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The point is they seem to find it difficult to accept that with a mandate comes responsibility. Responsibility has been exercised but there also has been dereliction of responsibility from the Minister of State's party-----
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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What does the Deputy mean by referring to my party?
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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-----from the party with which it is in coalition, from my party and from many other people with no parties throughout the country in respect of local authorities.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Deputy has a brass neck.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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What does the Deputy mean by a "dereliction of responsibility" on the part of my party?
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister of State enters this Chamber and tries glibly to connect every single incorrect decision regarding planning to Fianna Fáil, it is a shallow presentation of the facts.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is too narrow.
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Deputy has a brass neck.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Members are fully within their rights to call for an independent inquiry into all the irregularities in the seven named local authorities. The Minister of State has a good reputation, which she should enhance.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I urge the Minister of State to enhance her reputation and not to do the bidding of the man who was sitting beside her but who has left the Chamber.
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The Deputy should not be condescending towards me because I happen to be a woman.
Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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She has it within her gift to enhance her reputation and to proceed with independent planning inquiries into the seven authorities, which were ready to go. I commend the motion to the House.
9:00 pm
Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The Deputy obviously did not hear my announcement regarding the independent person.