Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Question 6: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will provide, in tabular form, the total public sector pay bill and public sector pension bill month on month from end of June 2011 to the end of May 2012. [28260/12]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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This is a tabular reply so there is a slight difficulty. I will read the response and I will endeavour to help the Deputy with any of the tabulated particulars. I do not have a spare printed copy to give the Deputy.

The estimated gross monthly pay and pensions bill for the period June 2011 to April 2012, as notified by Departments and offices, in respect of public service workers, is set out in the table which follows the text of this reply. It should be noted that the estimated figures notified in respect of 2012 are subject to change due to ongoing reconciliation by Departments and offices as data becomes available. Month on month figures are significantly influenced by the number of pay days and pension lump sums paid in each month. The figures exclude pay and pension expenditure by local authorities and do not take account of the pension-related deduction on public service remuneration. Monthly returns in respect of the pay and pensions costs incurred in May 2012 by Departments are currently being collated.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that the Minister cannot read a table of information so I will bear this in mind for future questions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I can but -----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister to provide the figures in respect of the pay bill for the months at the start and end of the period as set out in the tabulated return, the top and tail figures for June 2011 and May 2012 and likewise in respect of the pension bill.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In June 2011, total pay was €1,218,901,000. The pension bill for the same month was €203,939,000, a total pay and pension bill in June 2011 of €1,422, 840,000. In April 2012, total pay was €1,134,191,000. The total pension bill payable in April 2012 was €247,975,000, giving a total pay and pension bill of €1, 382,166,000.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have had this discussion before in respect of the pay and pension bill. The Minister's strategy from the outset in respect of what he terms reform was simply to cut out head count, to reduce the pay and pensions bill. He regarded this as a major savings initiative. The report of the Croke Park implementation group is due to be published today and this question is related. We have never got to the bottom of the real savings to the Exchequer in net terms as a result of all of the cutbacks and the hacking away of the public service and the loss of staff from the system. This is the nub of the issue. The manner in which the Minister deals with what he calls reform in the public sector is wrong-headed. It is not just about head count. I have set this out in some detail on other occasions.

I acknowledge we are discussing the top and tail figures from the tabulated return but for all the bluster and the hardship endured by the front line staff, the savings are not significant. To return to a bugbear of mine, it highlights the real pity of the Minister's failure to address the issue of very high pay. I refer in particular to those in the public and Civil Service who are on salaries of €100,000 and above and the kind of pension pots that still persist to this day, along with the exceptional payments made to people when they exit employment. These are all live issues.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy has been consistently wrong on every issue. She regards rhetoric as being a substitute. I suggest she reads the report of the implementation group which is published today. Head count is one element but it also includes fundamental reform. This reform is accruing real benefits in monetary terms to the State. It is fanciful to say what the Deputy has just stated and to talk about month by month figures because there are variants within months such as particular issues which arise and the number of pay days in a month and so on. One must look at the whole period in question and this is what has been done independently by the implementation group. It has indicated that in the 12-month period under review from the end of March 2011 to the end of March 2012, a total of €650 million in payroll savings have been made. Deputy Fleming shares the Deputy's view that this is abated by a pension contribution but people have paid for 40 years for their pensions and this is included in the arithmetic anyway - unless the Deputy is suggesting they should not receive their pensions. The vast majority are ordinary workers and the vast majority of pensions are modest in size.

The real savings in pay terms is €650 million in a year. The non-pay savings amounts to an additional €370 million. This is as a result of a change in Garda rosters, a change to which had been discussed for the past 40 years. There has been a change in the rosters in the health service. A total of 4,500 people have been deployed in the health service in the past year and this could not have been done without the Croke Park agreement. A total of 1,200 teachers have been redeployed, as well as 750 FÁS workers and 1,000 community welfare officers. There have been very great changes which include better procurement procedures. This has all been driven by the reform agenda which the Deputy is not bothered to actually read.

The Civil Service reform agenda includes more than 200 actions and I presented it to the committee of which the Deputy is a member. She knows I have established a reform office in my Department which is responsible for driving change. However, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Question 7: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the criteria he will apply when assessing the second annual report on the Croke Park Implementation Group; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28304/12]

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Question 35: To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if the implementation body will provide a more robust and detailed breakdown of savings achieved, Department by Department, agency by agency, in its second annual review due to be published in June. [28256/12]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I propose to answer Questions Nos. 7 and 35 together.

The implementation body has completed its second annual review and published this morning its second annual report of progress under the Croke Park agreement. In my view, the body has once again produced a very comprehensive, detailed and robust report. The report analyses the pay and non-pay efficiency savings being delivered under the agreement. It also examines the change and reform being delivered in each sector of the public service and highlights examples of improved productivity that have been achieved as the decreased number of staff respond to increased demand for many public services.

The body has found that pay bill savings in the order of €650 million were achieved between April 2011 and March 2012, driven primarily by a significant reduction in staff numbers of 11,530. Furthermore, the body sought to factor in an estimate for planned recruitment to fill critical positions later this year, following the retirement of some 8,000 staff in the first quarter of this year, in order to arrive at an estimate of the sustainable pay bill savings that might be achieved. This yields an estimated net sustainable pay bill saving of €521 million. In addition, the body found that €370 million in administrative efficiencies or non-pay savings were achieved.

The body engaged external financial advisors to undertake an independent verification of the savings being reported in the case of a small sample of projects. Following a tendering process, Grant Thornton were engaged to evaluate four projects. They found that the savings reported by management in each of the four projects were reasonable estimates of savings; the methodology used for each project was found to be acceptable; and the agreement is playing a significant role in facilitating the implementation of the savings initiatives in each case. The Grant Thornton report was published in parallel with the report of the implementation body.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has given a glowing account of what is contained in the second report of the implementation group but I asked what are his criteria for assessing the report. I note the figures for the reduction in staff numbers are good and the public sector pay bill has been reduced and I note the non-pay savings. What has been the cost of the severance payments for the 11,500 staff who left this year? I would estimate the average cost would be at least €70,000 per person. What is the cost? It is not in that report. Maybe they will say it is not their job, but it is certainly the Minister's job to inform this House of the cost of the severance payments.

I also want the Minister to clarify the figures supplied by his Department. Will he comment on the fact that the public sector pay bill from 2009 to 2011 fell by 4% per annum, whereas the figures from 2012 to 2015 are only to fall by 1.75%? The chart in the report refer to a gross public sector pay bill in 2009 of €17.5 billion and compares it to the net pay bill in 2015, but that is nonsense. The report does not even compare, in the same sentence, gross or net figures with their equivalents. It mixes and matches them to give a bigger figure, which does not tally with the chart that is printed there.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Does the Deputy have the report in front of him?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have, yes.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If he looks at page 4 he will see, in table 3, the Exchequer pay bill in gross terms for each year from 2009 to 2015. It is comparing exactly like with like across the top, beginning with the 2009 gross figure of €17.514 billion and ending in 2015 with the Exchequer gross figure of €14.6 billion. It is therefore comparing like with like. Has the Deputy read the table at all? I was asked a question on the "News at One" on foot of the Deputy's question, saying there were no pension figures in it, but they are on the same page in the next table. The Deputy should read the tables before he asks questions and issues statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Minister a question about severance costs, not about pensions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will answer that separately.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I want that figure either now or in the immediate future. It is not there. The HSE's chief executive told the Committee of Public Accounts that it is costing €380 million up front to achieve a saving of €80 million net per annum in the HSE. He broke down those figures at the Committee of Public Accounts. The Minister has misread his own chart. The bottom line on chart No. 3 refers to an Exchequer pay bill net of PRD, public related deduction, which goes from €16.7 billion in 2009 to €13.7 billion in 2015. That is a reduction of €3 billion, yet the figure in the chart is €3.8 billion. That figure is not a correct assessment of the bottom line the Minister quoted. It is a simple fact that the Minister quoted the wrong figure.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy wants to mix and match himself now.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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He said the gross figures were not there, but they are in the published report. This is not my report; it is from the implementation body. Let me be quite clear because we can lose things in figures. The bottom line is that in the reference period in question we have reduced the pay bill, independently validated not by my Department but by the implementation body, in gross terms by €650 million. There will be some add back because it involves 11,500 people leaving the service. I have indicated that there will be some recruitment this year. They have made an attempt to quantify what that might cost, indicating that the net payroll savings will be of the order of €520 million. By 2015, our aim is to reduce the public pay bill from its peak by €3.8 billion gross or €3.3 billion net of pension. That is a significant reduction in anyone's language.

I accept Deputy McDonald's point that a reduction in numbers is only part of this whole dynamic. The reform side of it is as important, which is what I want to concentrate on in order to get different delivery mechanisms and rosters. For example, we want to ensure we are deploying gardaí when they are most needed and that we have optimum use of resources in hospitals so that staff will match equipment availability. That is the drive for reform that is happening in parallel to the reduction in numbers. The fact that we are doing that in an atmosphere of industrial peace is a great credit to public service workers.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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On that note, I would be the first to acknowledge and give credit to people working within the public service and Civil Service. Here is the Minister's difficulty, however - he has a figure of €3.3 billion, which is his target.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Net.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That goes to the point that has been raised repeatedly with the Minister and at the Committee of Public Accounts, which is that we need the net figures. Aside from any value judgment one might make on the rights and wrongs of the process, including the effect it is having on the front line, it is entirely proper and legitimate that we are given the net figures. We have had to question individual Accounting Officers to try to get to the bottom of what the figures actually are. It is much more useful for us, as legislators involved in public policy, to have net figures. The Minister has a net target so he should be able to give us the net figures also.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A question please, Deputy.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Here is my question to the Minister - he says it is not just about a head-count, but is also about reform. The Minister has been more than cautious in addressing issues of culture within the public sector, particularly at the upper echelons. He has almost been afraid to deal with some of the obvious issues, including high pay and pension pots. The Minister has run away from that. Redeployments have happened, as have cuts for civil and public servants on modest incomes, and they are feeling the pain as a result. When it comes to playing the game with the big boys, however, it strikes me that the Minister does not have the belly for it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is either living in a bubble or is deliberately ignoring the facts, because no Minister has been more proactive in reducing high-level pay than I have. I set the ceiling for civil servants at €200,000. As of now, no civil servant is paid more than €200,000.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The French President does not earn €200,000.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The reality is that we have pushed people's salaries down.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, so what is the Minister's point?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We introduced a referendum to cut judges' pay. I have introduced new financial emergency measures in the public interest to implement that and other reductions, including pensions to further abate those with high public service pensions. It is absolutely wrong to say that we have not been active on that front. It is popular to trot out the same old thing and Deputy McDonald is addicted to popular phrases as opposed to reality. The head-count issue is important because we need to reduce public service numbers, but the Deputy is right in that it is not the solution in itself. We need reform in order to do things differently and that is why we are engaging through the implementation body with the sectoral committees to bring about real reform in service delivery. We are doing things differently, including shared services. The Civil Service shared human resource service is in the process of being set up, and we will follow that through with other shared services, including payroll management and pension costs. We are identifying leave arrangements, including sick leave, and are currently in the Labour Court on that matter. We are moving on a variety of fronts.

If the Deputy is interested, we will come back to the committee again to present the latest instalment of where we are on the 200 aims of the civil servants' reform programme. We are ambitious and are doing things that have not been done in a generation.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is far from ambitious.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I did not get a figure on severance costs.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are almost out of time, but I will allow Deputy McDonald to put a brief question.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I cannot let this pass. The Minister is blowing his trumpet about a €200,000 pay cap.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I can rely on Deputy McDonald to keep blowing her trumpet.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on a second. Does the Minister know that the Finnish prime minister earns €129,000 and the French president does not earn €200,000?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has already made that point.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What bubble is the Minister in when he imagines that a salary of €200,000 is some cruel and unusual punishment or hardship? That is ludicrous.

Colm Keaveney (Galway East, Labour)
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How much is Deputy Adams earning?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister clearly does not have the belly for-----

Colm Keaveney (Galway East, Labour)
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How many salaries is Deputy Adams in receipt of?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----that segment, which arguably is the most in need of reform. The Minister has run away from that matter.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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A final reply from the Minister.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When the Deputy runs out of truth, she puts words in my mouth. I never said anything about cruel and unusual punishment.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister did so in committee some weeks ago.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy can shout me down if she wishes. I regard that level of salary as high. That is the reason the Government set it as a ceiling for the Taoiseach. Ministers are paid less than that. In net terms, the Taoiseach earns 44% less than a Taoiseach did in 2008 and Ministers are earning 40% less. They are still on a handsome salary; there is no doubt about that. However, we should acknowledge what has been done. Deputy McDonald acknowledges nothing, except herself. She does not remember her party's past and is only interested in the sins of others. In truth, we have a reform agenda which we are delivering on. A report independently validated shows the progress made. The Deputy should for once have the good grace to acknowledge the hundreds of thousands of public servants who are driving reform and making the change.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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They are not earning €200,000.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I happen to be the Minister with responsibility for doing this. The Deputy might some time have the good grace to acknowledge their efforts in the national interest.