Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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In case we are at odds, the Minister should note that the focus of the media and public at present is very much on the retirement of public service personnel. This is a separate issue from the one on which I want to focus, namely, bad expenditure practices in the public service that affect the taxpayer. Most members of the public refer to abuses of taxpayers' money in Departments, local authorities, etc. People believe these abuses are "part of the culture", a uniquely Irish phrase. The practices have nothing to do with culture; they involve the abuse of our taxes by a small number of people who are devoid of civic responsibility.

On mainland Europe, one admires the ways in which governments and public services can cut costs and protect the taxpayer from abuses or bad practices. When the Minister, Deputy Howlin, first took over his Department, I focused on certain sentences he used. Consequently, I believe he understands where I am coming from. In a very bad and deep recession, a different approach is required because there is not enough money. Whatever money is available is provided at the behest of our generous neighbours, who, of course, want it to be repaid. After 90 years of independence, we have an opportunity to change our habits. This must be taken as savings are required. The Department has engaged in change but the public should know about it. That is the purpose of my raising this matter.

It was public servants who brought this matter to my attention, but not only when I was canvassing 12 months ago. They highlighted bad practices in Departments and local authorities. Fair play to them because, by and large, most public and civil servants are quite decent, honest people. I would be interested to hear the Minister's comments in this regard.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Maloney for raising this issue, although the impact of departmental savings is a fairly broad topic. Having listened to him, however, I now understand the focus of his commentary, which certainly merits some discussion. On taking office, one of the things I did was to have a cross-departmental review, which culminated in the Comprehensive Expenditure Report 2012-14 published on 5 December 2011. I also published the capital infrastructure plan on 10 November 2011. Meanwhile, the implementation body's publication of the public service agreement - the so-called Croke Park agreement - progress report was published on 17 November 2011. The public service reform plan, which examined all the public service reforms we wanted to make, was also published on 17 November 2011.

That is the way we will look at bringing about real reforms on the issues referred to by the Deputy. The general public and public servants have been talking about tackling issues like abuse, waste and bad practices. As the Deputy knows, I have set up a website to which people - particularly those on the front line who understand what is going on in the public service - have been invited to make submissions. We got an extraordinary variety of good submissions which have been incorporated into the comprehensive expenditure review. All that documentation is available on my Department's website.

The ceilings we have set will ensure that efficiencies and reformed work practices will play a full part in contributing to what needs to happen in any event, which is budgetary consolidation. Deputy Maloney will recall the issue of performance budgeting which we included in the Revised Estimates Volume 2012, published last week. It was an initiative that now involves almost all Departments. The annual Estimates of expenditure have been re-cast to ensure full alignment with Departments' statements of strategy and to include performance information against each of the high-level objectives set out in the programme.

The old accounting mechanism of allocating a volume of money to a particular budget line is now accompanied - people will have read the tome that arrived on their desks last week - with an actual expected outcome for that money. I hope Oireachtas committees will be able to follow that to ensure that the money voted will have the specifically expressed outcomes in terms of quantities of individuals to be treated, cases to be processed, or specific outcomes to be expected.

The new Estimates offer a much more open way of doing business. The performance budgeting initiative is just one wave of a broad tide of reform which I hope is sweeping over an age-old system for managing public expenditure. One commentator said this was the first time such fundamental reform had happened since Victorian times.

In last December's comprehensive expenditure report, I introduced a new medium-term expenditure framework that sets fixed expenditure ceilings for every Government Department for 2013 and, on an indicative basis, for 2014. Last month, I wrote to the chairpersons of all Oireachtas select committees dealing with Estimates, inviting them to begin the process of engagement with Departments on how next year's Estimates should be shaped. It would also be useful for Oireachtas committees to listen to the front line experience of workers and to put that to Departments in framing next year's Estimates.

Taking the whole gamut of reforms the Government has laid out, the entire system of public expenditure is undergoing a sea change of which the achievement of expenditure savings is just one element, albeit an important one. The focus remains on delivering the best possible services, eliminating waste and abuse, and ensuring that we perform at a world-class level.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his comments and congratulate him on his Department's website. Of the people who brought about five cases to my attention in the past 12 months, four of them have taken up the Minister's offer which is very good. For example, a mid-ranking manager in a large Dublin hospital handed me a piece of paper and - almost shamefully, as an ordinary conscientious taxpayer - described what was going on in his workplace, which was a waste of public money. Virtually all public servants want these sort of abuses to stop. It operates marginally in other jurisdictions. I am sure the Minister is aware of the completely different monitoring system in the UK. His initiative, however, is the first of its kind in the history of the State. He mentioned a commentator's reference to Victorian times, but I am not a big fan of Queen Victoria so I will not praise her in the House.

I should have qualified my earlier comments by saying that both the Minister and I are public servants, so we come into that, except that in our case we are temporary or part-time.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Contract.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Only four years left.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Or not.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Or not.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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You can have the four.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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We sometimes forget it, but I meant to say that we should be included in this subject matter. By the way, I drafted this Topical Issue before the cartridge-gate saga, although I do not want to go down this road. Without a doubt, that is a typical example of how the public perceive the Minister, myself and everyone else in this House. It is up to all of us to bring a halt to all those practices and not just in here, but throughout the public service. Eventually, we have to reach a stage where people realise that the use of the phrase "Ah, it's the State that's paying for it" - the old colonial language that Irish people use - is not good enough. Forget the State, it is the ordinary taxpayer who is paying for it, so we have to change that mindset.

If I understood the Minister correctly, he said that when the programme period is over he will size up the matter himself. That would be a good exercise for the public and will perhaps focus some journalists' minds on the meaningful things that are done within the public service.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I fully agree with Deputy Maloney. Transparency and openness are the best antidotes to abuse. When things are understood to be open and accessible, people will be much more mindful of how they use resources. There must be a balance, however, because we must be able to justify the use of resources as well. It is true that Ministers are reluctant to use the Government jet, which always surprises me because we paid for it and it is sitting on a runway.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I did not know we had one.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have pilots that are paid for, while Ministers are now saying: "No, I'll take commercial flights and leave that there." We need to have a different approach that is efficient, mindful of scarce resources and not wasteful. I fully agree with the Deputy in that regard.

My final point concerns the management of it, and Deputy Maloney touched on cartridge-gate. It is important to give authority to managers, whether in the Oireachtas or elsewhere, simply to alert people to say "You can't do that". If this is the accepted norm, they will not only have the authority but the responsibility to manage resources properly and well. That should happen across the public service. It is part of the process that is happening right now in the reforms agenda. We have a long way to go because, to abuse the word the Deputy used himself, there is a culture change. The vast majority of those in the public service understand that, as taxpayers, they want good value and want to eliminate waste. That is the objective of this Government.