Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Question 41: To ask the Minister for Health and Children if he will give details of the work of the interim board of the Health Service Executive; if he will give further details of his interactions with the interim board and any adjustments he has made in his Department on foot of the new approach to the board. [13618/11]

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The new HSE board held its first meeting this morning. The new, largely executive, board will meet more frequently than its predecessor and I will be briefed about board business on a regular basis by the chairman, Dr. Frank Dolphin, the CEO, Mr. Cathal Magee, and the Secretary General of my Department, Mr. Michael Scanlan. The board will focus on operational excellence and its membership includes a strong element of service delivery. I have asked the board as one of its priority tasks to examine how it will streamline reporting relationships to ensure decisions are implemented quickly and better services can be delivered for patients as a result. Under the old system, decisions made within the HSE were reported up through the system and across to the relevant section of the Department and the Secretary General. That circuitous route has been removed and they all sit at the top table together so decisions can be made and implemented without the need for a tortuous chain of command.

I appointed the board following discussions with the chairman and CEO of the HSE and my Secretary General. I have also asked the CEO and the Secretary General to review the existing senior management roles and responsibilities in both organisations, address any duplication of functions and explore the scope for more conjoined working. This will free up expert individuals who are at present engaged in the duplication of work to undertake important tasks such as examining risk equalisation.

I want to develop strong and coherent governance arrangements for the entire health care system which will continue to operate after the abolition of the existing legal governance structure. This will facilitate the Government's plans to reform the system. In the short term, we plan to establish a special delivery unit to address waiting lists. Over the longer term, our goal is to eliminate the two-tier health service and move to a system of universal health insurance, whereby everyone in this country is treated on the basis of need rather than ability to pay.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister agree there is a lack of corporate oversight and governance on the board of the HSE given that officials are now overseeing their own work at board level? That could be a cause of concern, particularly in the HSE.

In regard to proposals to subsume the agency back into the Department, will this result in a large reduction in the number of staff currently employed in the latter?

Now that the election is over, we can park what the Minister has previously said regarding the HSE but in more recent discussions on the numbers of people on hospital trolleys and the delivery of primary care units he clearly stated he did not believe the figures set out by the HSE and did not trust its counts of patients on trolleys or primary care units. They are issues about which many people have concerns.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's first contention is that there will be no oversight. The Department has strong representation on the board, which ensures oversight. There are also external auditors, etc. There is not the major concern alluded to by the Deputy from the Government's point of view. It is an interim board, which will not be in place for a number of years but until the new system comes into place.

I said we wanted more integration between the HSE and the Department but I never said we would absorb the HSE into the Department. Ultimately, we are heading for universal health insurance with primary care and hospital care coming under a new body that will be responsible for cure while longer term care will be looked after by a health care agency.

With regard to my statements on the issue of the numbers of patients waiting on trolleys, I was happy to say following discussions with the HSE and the INMO that we would accept their figures but that they must be validated by a HSE official at the time the count takes place in the morning. The Deputy is right that primary care teams do not exist. I have had discussions with the HSE on this and I now have clarity on the issue. HSE officials allude to primary care teams which exist in name but which are not fully functioning. They are seeking to put together the criteria for what constitutes a functioning primary care team, which delivers something to patients, as opposed to a primary care team, under which GPs may have had discussions with other health personnel. I did not say that I did not trust the INMO, I said I did not accept or believe its numbers and I stand over that.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Was money misappropriated in the context of provision of the primary care units? The HSE said it had X number of units up and running. Were funds spent establishing units that do not exist?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I note the Deputy's fondness for the use of the word "misappropriation". Last week, he used it during the debate on the fair deal issue, which my colleague addressed. Nobody said moneys were misappropriated. I said clearly in that instance that money that should have been under different subheads were taken from subhead 12, which covers the fair deal scheme.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a misappropriation of funds.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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No, "inappropriate" as opposed to "misappropriation". There is a big difference between both and there is a big difference in law if we were to debate this outside the House.

The Deputy asked about primary care centres and teams. I am not aware of any such issue but I will check it out and revert to him.