Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask the Taoiseach to state the number of children who may have died in the care of this State in the past ten years?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will know that on 8 March last, the Minister of State with responsibility for children and youth affairs announced the establishment of an independent review group on child deaths. The group presently comprises Ms Norah Gibbons and Mr. Geoffrey Shannon. It has been asked to examine existing information on all deaths of children in care over the past ten years. It will produce an overall report for publication which includes, on an anonymised basis, key summary information regarding each child and the circumstances leading up to his or her death. The review will focus in particular on the relevant involvement of State services with the child and his or her family. It will examine the strengths and weaknesses of such involvement. The group will make recommendations on how child protection responses can be strengthened.

The Deputy will be aware that the validation of the numbers of children who have died in care is taking place at the moment. That remit is being extended to include children who were in care but were out of care and requiring after-care services when they died, and to children in respect of whom the Department or the HSE were notified of the need for child protection. The exact and precise numbers are being worked on and through at the minute. The HSE has confirmed that 23 is the figure it is putting forward at the moment.

It is important to point out that the Government met this morning. It is anxious to ensure that the work of Mr. Shannon and Ms Gibbons proceeds as they would envisage and to provide whatever information they require to achieve the publication of a report, as set out and agreed with the Minister. We are arranging for that to happen. A meeting of officials from the Department of Health and Children, the Office of the Attorney General and the HSE took place today to clarify the position with regard to any obstacles to the provision of necessary information to the review group. That is being worked on today as well.

I want to make the point that we will do whatever requires to be done. In relation to the report itself, any information required by Mr. Shannon and Ms Gibbons will be provided. The legal obstacles that may exist in that regard will be dealt with by means of a legislative change, if necessary. I believe a legislative change will be required. That will be prepared as a matter of urgency. An exercise is being undertaken with regard to the separate issue of the validation of the numbers. The HSE has indicated to the Minister that it should be ready by the end of June.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am astonished at the Taoiseach's response. He is the Leader of the Government and political leader of the country. This information was promised to Deputy Alan Shatter on 5 March 2009. The Taoiseach himself is a former Minister for Health who supervised the introduction of the Children First child protection guidelines in 1999.

The Taoiseach has a dysfunctional Health Service Executive, HSE, and a Minister of State with special responsibility for children and youth affairs who is powerless. The Minister for Health and Children, sitting beside the Taoiseach, and her predecessor, Deputy Martin, and their Ministers of State were unable to acquire information about children who may have died in the care of the State. It is astonishing that the Taoiseach, himself, a former Minister for Health, does not have this information accurately. We have the Department of Health and Children and the HSE hiding behind process and reports.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question please?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is strange that Deputy Shatter, or reporters Paul Reynolds and Edel Kennedy, are able to produce more evidence about children who may have died while in the care of our State than the HSE or the Department of Health and Children. It is truly astonishing the Taoiseach does not have that information and cannot answer the question.

A review group has been appointed by the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Barry Andrews.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question, Deputy Kenny?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It comprises Ms Norah Gibbons and Mr. Geoffrey Shannon whose integrity no one doubts. However, there is a legal problem with giving the information and documentation on these children who may have died to the review group.

The HSE also refused to give accurate information on problems with X-rays at Tallaght hospital, breast cancer treatment in Portlaoise and information on charges for elderly people entering nursing homes. Now, arising from this debacle, one of the most monumental failures of the State, will the Taoiseach agree the HSE is dysfunctional? Will he agree that the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, is just a decoration at the Cabinet table?

When will the Taoiseach give us the accurate information? Will he introduce legislation, if it is necessary, to overcome the obstacles created by the HSE in this regard? Is he prepared to accept responsibility for this situation and see it is sorted out, because the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, has patently failed to do so? This is a matter of life and death in which it is now reported that up to 200 children may have died while in the care of the State. This information was to be given to Deputy Alan Shatter arising from a Dáil debate on 5 March 2009. I find it incredible that in a matter as sensitive, important and subjective as this, the Head of State does not have accurate information on it after all this time.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As I explained to Deputy Enda Kenny, on 10 March the Minister of State, having set up the review group on 8 March, wrote to the chairman of the HSE asking for a validated list of all deaths of children in State care in the past ten years which would be given to the review group for its consideration. The Minister sought that within two days of establishing the group.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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A year later.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but for Deputy Olivia Mitchell's information, he set up the review group on 8 March 2010.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The usual excuse. It is passing the buck

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State immediately asked for a validated list-----

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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On 5 March 2009, the Minister of State, Deputy John Moloney, promised me that information.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Alan Shatter, please.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----to be forwarded to the review group so that it could deal with the matters he outlined to it. The HSE has advised the Minister of State that it will take it until the end of June to complete an accurate and consistent list of deaths of children in care in that respect. That is the information that is available to the Minister of State and its work is ongoing. I agree I would rather have that information to hand immediately. The collation and recording of this information is not what one would have expected but that is the situation.

On the separate matter of ensuring the provision of whatever information is required by Mr. Shannon and Ms Gibbons, in discussions between departmental officials, the Attorney General's office and the HSE after the Government's meeting this morning, it was decided the HSE would provide factual information requested by the review group as a matter of urgency and no later than Friday of this week in respect of previously identified deaths of children in care known to the HSE. To allow this exchange of information between the HSE and the Department, the sharing of which might otherwise be legally restricted, a legislative amendment is required. That amending legislation will be brought forward as a matter of urgency.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Last Thursday, the Tánaiste said no amending legislation would be required when I asked her about it.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Alan Shatter, please allow the Taoiseach without interruption.

Mary Coughlan (Donegal South West, Fianna Fail)
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That was not the matter raised by Deputy Alan Shatter last week.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The privacy of children in State care will continue to be protected in any proposed amendment to the legislation in question.

The review group, whose members are respected professionals in this area, has been notified of these arrangements. We are proceeding along these lines to ensure the work gets done.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is very slow.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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How many more deaths will occur?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach's response to Deputy Enda Kenny is quite incredible. It is incredible the State is not in a position to tell us how many children have died in tis care. This is not about asking the HSE how many medical card applications were made in a period? This is about the deaths of children while they were in the State's care.

The Taoiseach stated the HSE believes the figure is 23. An article in The Sunday Business Post, however, stated the HSE believes approximately 200 children have died in State care in the past ten years. There is a big difference between 23 and 200. If it is as high as 200, then it is an extremely serious matter. The average mortality rate for children in the total population was 300, that is one in every 3,200 children. If the number of children dying in care is as high as 200 in the past ten years, an average at 20 per year, then it works out ten to 12 times the mortality rate in the wider population.

The Taoiseach tells us he does not know the number of children who have died in State care.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question please?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach does not know why these children died because the inquiry established under Norah Gibbons and Geoffrey Shannon has not yet been able to get the relevant files. The HSE, which has responsibility in this area, is thumbing its nose at the Minister of State, by claiming the files will not be provided. The Taoiseach now is contemplating new legislation.

Why can the Minister for Health and Children not give the same written direction to the HSE, as provided in the Health Acts, to produce these files as she gave for the release of lands from hospitals to enable the building of private hospitals on them?

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should not be hiding behind the review group.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not possible to give a direction which is contrary to the law. There are legal problems which need to be addressed. We want to ensure the review group's objective set out by the Minister of State, that is an independent report which would deal with the question of the deaths of children in care over the past ten years. It is not, however, possible, to give a direction if there are legal constraints under the Child Care Act. There is also the fact that proceedings in the cases in question are held in camera and subject to court order.

These issues can be addressed, we believe, by providing a specific legal basis on which this information should be shared between the Department of Health and Children and the HSE. That was the Government's view this morning when the Minister reported to us on the work of the review group. The Government was of the view this morning that whatever legislative changes are needed to overcome any particular legal issues that arise will be dealt with as a matter of urgency. The House would be united on that issue.

I refer to the question of the numbers. As I have stated, the HSE has informed the Minister that it wises to validate and get an accurate and consistent list of the deaths of children in care over that period. It seeks to have this finalised in the coming weeks having checked all of its files. I do not suggest this is something with which I or the Government is happy. One would have hoped it would have been available immediately but that is not the case. Therefore, we must get a validated list and we must get the facts together, collated and brought to the attention of the review group, along with the information required by the review group to examine the circumstances surrounding those deaths, whether by natural causes or otherwise. These matters need to be addressed. This is why the Minister of State has instigated the measure. Since January of this year there have been new arrangements because the Minister of State has been to the fore. He wishes to bring more transparency and to put in place a more effective situation.

At present there is a situation where HIQA is notified within 48 hours of any deaths and there is a 15 person panel, from which three are chosen to independently investigate the circumstances and whether child care provisions are working in each case. There has been a new system from January onwards which will deal with situations which have arisen since then. At the same time the Minister of State, in the aftermath of Ms Fay's situation, asked for a review group to examine cases in the past ten years of people who died in care and he is arranging to get that now. We will take whatever legislative measures are necessary, based on the advice of the Attorney General, to ensure the information is made available to these respected persons in this area, Mr. Shannon and Ms Gibbons, to complete this work satisfactorily.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I would have thought that information on children dying in the care of the State would not take the State agency responsible months to compile. It should be at the top of the agenda. I am reminded of what the Minister of State, Deputy Andrews, stated here on 4 March when we were discussing the Tracey Fay case. He stated that he was guided by the principle that the State should act in loco parentis, not just in the limited understanding of the Latin phrase in the legalistic context, but to truly take the place of the parent and to provide support to the most vulnerable children in the State. He referred to acting in loco parentis.

Whatever the State has been doing in the case of children who have died in its care, it does not appear to have been acting in loco parentis. If any set of parents acted as negligently as the State would appear to have acted here, to the extent that the Taoiseach does not know the number of children who have died in the State's care, the State would move to take those children into care from the parents concerned. What happens to children for whom the State does not provide the care that should be provided by parents? That is the issue to be addressed here. An issue of State negligence arises. The extent of the negligence is such that the Taoiseach is not even in a position to advise on it and he is awaiting some validation exercise that must be undertaken by the HSE before he can inform us of the number of children that have died in the State's care in the past ten years. Clearly, this is a case of negligence, dysfunctionality in the HSE and of the tail wagging the dog as far as the relationship between the HSE and the Minister of State with responsibility for children is concerned.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is not correct. I have just made the point three times to the Deputy that the Government this morning decided on whatever legislative changes are required. Legal issues are involved. It is not a question, as Deputy Gilmore is seeking to portray, of people thumbing their nose or whatever. There are legal issues involved in this question and they must be resolved. The Government decided this morning that they will be resolved.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Why did it not decide as much one year ago?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Whatever information is required by Mr. Shannon and Ms Gibbons to enable them to do their work will be undertaken as a matter of urgency. A Bill will be brought to Government, approved and brought into the House as soon as is practicable to enable that to happen in the coming weeks.

Issues exist which must be resolved and they can be resolved once a legal basis is provided for interaction between the Department and the HSE to take place in such a way that information can be shared. We will do that. All of us are anxious to ensure that is the case.

Deputy Gilmore raised a point in respect of the number of people involved. I do not know any more than the Deputy from where the figure of 200 people emerges. It may be the case that people have extrapolated it on the basis that, unfortunately, there have been six deaths in the past quarter or since January, and such people may have devised a mathematical conclusion from that for the past ten years. Perhaps then one could come to a figure of that order. However, I am unsure whether that is a fair presumption to make and it is not one that should be made. I agree I would rather have the exact figure available to give to the House today. However, during the past ten years and under the old health board structure these matters were dealt with at various regional levels. I agree this information should be available to us forthwith.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has been in Government for ten years while this has been happening.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am making the point in defence of the Minister of State.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has not suddenly landed in here from outer space.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is fully committed to providing the best possible practice. New arrangements have been in place since January of this year, which were needed. The Minister of State is reviewing the programme since the Children First guidelines came into being. He is seeking to have the report made available. He has involved some of the best and most respected people in this area in the process. They have been apprised of the arrangements put in place to deal with the legal problems that have arisen.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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They were only appointed last Friday.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On 8 March the Minister of State announced the fact that there was an independent review group being set up.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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He did so but he did not establish it until last Friday after Daniel McAnaspie's body was found.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Deputy Shatter please stop interrupting?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State has been committed to providing a better system of accountability in this area, to ensuring that we have the facts and he is arranging to obtain them with the experts he has appointed. We will do whatever is necessary in the House to provide the legal basis for that to happen. In the meantime, the HSE has indicated that it will validate the exact figures as soon as possible.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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How long does it take to get such figures?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It has indicated that it will do so by the end of June. This involves ensuring that we have an accurate and factual basis on which to hold that discussion. It is important to ensure this is the case. The Government is committed to full transparency in this situation.