Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Last week, in respect of the matter that was causing some concern around the country about Oireachtas Members being in receipt of ministerial pensions, I asked the Taoiseach whether he would choose either to accept the Fine Gael Bill to legislate for this issue for everyone or to discuss with Members in his own party their opportunity to give up ministerial pensions and to show leadership at a time of national economic crisis. As the Taoiseach is already committed to voting against the Private Members' motion to be debated this evening and tomorrow, has he already had discussions with those Members of his party who are not willing at present to give up their ministerial pensions and if so, what has been the outcome of those discussions?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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My position in this matter has been consistent all along, namely, it is a matter for individual persons who are in receipt of such pensions as to what they wish to do. I also made the point to Deputy Kenny last week that the Attorney General's advice is that the immediate and total abolition of pensions for a single category of pensioner would be unconstitutional. As the Deputy is aware, the Government already has been proactive in this area by reducing the pensions by 25% and by indicating they will be abolished as and from the next Dáil, which is what is regarded as being within the parameters of the law.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach will celebrate his second anniversary as Taoiseach in two days' time. He has presided, with his Government, over such an unprecedented destruction of so many things in Ireland that it is quite incredible. I refer to national debt, unemployment and Exchequer figures and the position regarding health. It is important at a time like this that political leadership be demonstrated by the leader of the country.

The Taoiseach came into his office with a very high reputation of having the potential to change, lead and direct but, unfortunately, that has not happened. In the area of judges' pay, he failed to introduce legislation to make it equal for all those involved. In respect of higher civil servants, he exempted them from the recommended pay cuts. In respect of insiders taking privileged positions in banks, he failed to get his way there. The Taoiseach is now the only party leader, as I understand it, who has failed to get consent from members of his party to give up their ministerial pensions. He has failed in that act of leadership and to demonstrate such leadership at this time of national crisis.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach has made the point that the Attorney General has advised him and the Government that it is unconstitutional to take away ministerial pensions and that this deals with the question of legitimate expectation. He put through a Bill last July making it effective from the day of the first meeting of the next Dáil that no serving Member of the Oireachtas will receive a ministerial pension; I support that legislation. I supported the case that this should apply to everybody across the board in equal fashion. I have the advice of three senior counsel, which makes it clear, from their perspective, that this matter is quite constitutional. The Taoiseach has already reduced ministerial pensions, which deals with the question of legitimate expectation. He has done that by Government decision.

When the Taoiseach served as Minister for Health and Minister for Finance the Government received advice from the then Attorney General that it was constitutional to take money from old people going into nursing homes. However, that was deemed to be unconstitutional and the advice of the Attorney General is only advice and has to be acted upon by the Government in session.

I can furnish the Taoiseach with the evidence of these three senior counsel that this matter is constitutional. I ask him again if he has spoken to the three Members involved. Is he in a position where he will continue to abdicate responsibility and leadership at a time when hundreds of thousands of people, as he well knows, are suffering from economic stress and pressure and this is an issue to which they consider leadership, and the demonstration of it, should apply? Every other Member of the House, as I understand it, who legitimately earned a ministerial pension has either given it up or allocated it to charity except for three members of the Taoiseach's party. Has the Taoiseach spoken to, encouraged and advised those three Members that in the interests of many people this perception and demonstration of leadership is important, or will he leave this matter drift along with the litany of other matters on which he failed to deliver?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I refute again the misrepresentations the Deputy has made. I make the point that it is not possible to give back a pension and at the same time to give it to charity. People either give it back or they do not. It is not a matter that can be designated by the individual pensioner.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One can direct debit it to a charity. That can be done by law; I have checked that.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have set out the position. One has to return it. One does not have discretion as to the purpose for which it will be used. If one wishes to use it for that purpose, it is a matter of one retaining it and deciding to do something with it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. One can allocate it to charity and one would not therefore receive it.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is a different point of view. I outlined the position for the purpose of setting out the facts.

The second point I want to make to the Deputy is that, as I have outlined already, we took proportionate steps on this matter. We were proactive on it. We decided to reduce the pension and from next term have arranged for its abolition. In the meantime if there are people who wish to gift their pension, that is a matter for those individual pensioners to decide upon. A number of sitting Members of the Houses and other assemblies have decided to do that with their ministerial pensions. It is a matter for each individual to decide that. The Government has to follow the advice of the Attorney General in these matters in all cases. I do not know what the Deputy's advices are, but the advices to us are as I have outlined them.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will give them to the Taoiseach if he would like them.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy will know, regardless of what legal advices he may have, the legal advices a Government - of which he was a member - has to take relates to the Attorney General. The Attorney General has given his view on this matter; he has explained it. We have legislated for it and in the meantime this does not in any way pre-empt people from gifting their pensions if they so wish.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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An Attorney General's advice in the past proved to be unconstitutional.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Tomorrow the people of Britain will have an opportunity to vote in a general election.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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To vote out the Labour Party.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Deputies opposite should be careful about what they would wish for, it could catch on.

Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It has a younger Labour Party.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow Deputy Gilmore to continue without interruption.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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At least they will have an opportunity to cast a vote, elect a new parliament and decide who should be governing the country.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is back to wearing the blue tie already.

A Deputy:

Gordon has not been in power for five years.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The problem here is that the Taoiseach does not have the bottle to give the people of this country the same opportunity.

It is perfectly clear from the Taoiseach's disposition, despite the fact that he has lost the confidence of the people and no longer has a mandate to govern, that he has no immediate intention of giving the people an opportunity - like the people of Britain will have tomorrow - of having their say. There is no excuse for the Taoiseach denying the people of Donegal, south Dublin and Waterford their full representation in Dáil Éireann.

Deputy Ó Caoláin and his Sinn Féin colleagues will later today table a motion to move the writ for the by-election in Donegal. By-elections are also pending in south Dublin and in Waterford. Donegal has been down a TD since 8 June last, some 11 months, south Dublin has been down a TD for 14 of the past 22 months, and Waterford has been a short a TD since the former Minister, Martin Cullen resigned on 8 March. People in these constituencies in Donegal, Dublin and Waterford have the same concerns as other people in other constituencies about job losses, businesses in trouble, shortage of credit, people who find it difficult to pay their mortgages and people who are worried about their future. They have a right to have their full representation in Dáil Éireann. The question I want to ask the Taoiseach is when will he allow the people of Donegal, south Dublin and Waterford to complete their full representation in the Dáil? When will he set a date for the three by-elections?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We have a mandate to govern. It derives from the Dáil, in the same way as when the Deputy was a member of a Government. That mandate is legitimate, proper and appropriate.

On the question of the by-elections, that is a matter for the House to consider at any time. As the Deputy said, there is a matter to be discussed here and at the instigation of Sinn Féin it will be debated in the House.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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There is a flaw in the Taoiseach's logic. If the mandate to govern comes from the Dáil, then surely it should come from a full Dáil and therefore it should not come from a Dáil where, for the first time in a long time, there are three seats which have not been filled.

Every time the Taoiseach is asked this question, he has a way of dodging it; he has told us that the Government has not made a decision on this. He is making it sound as though the right of people to be represented in Dáil Éireann is some kind of a form of political patronage that can be doled out by Fianna Fáil and that a by-election is something that can be handed out like a national lottery grant. It is not like that. People have a right to vote in elections and to have their full representation here. We are in a ludicrous situation such that if we were to ask the Taoiseach if he will have an election for the Dublin mayor, he would find every reason under the sun to give us a vague answer rather than commit himself to a date for that election lest he might have to have the by-elections on the same date.

There is a long overdue referendum on children's rights and every time he will be asked when he will set a date for that referendum, he will give some other vague answer, again in case he is pinned down and he might have to set a date. If he sets a date for the referendum on children's rights, he will have to hold the three by-elections.

I have rarely seen any Taoiseach or a Head of any Government anywhere running so scared of the public as the Taoiseach is now. He should set the date for the by-elections and allow the people of Donegal, Dublin South and Waterford to have their right, a right that was fought for by people who have gone before us, to have their full representation in the Dáil and to accept the verdict of the people. When we hold these three by-elections, we can then put to the test whether the Taoiseach has a mandate in the Dáil to continue governing.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore seeks to lecture us again on how we view the situation. I do not regard it as a matter of political patronage. I am elected here on the same basis as the Deputy, perhaps for even longer. To be lectured on those issues is not something I have to consider from him.

With regard to the business the Dáil is conducting, the Government has, uniquely in this House, shown the capacity to take the decisions which have been necessary to ensure we did not find ourselves in the situation in which, unfortunately, some other country has found itself at present. It is because of that coherent response to those sorts of difficulties that we are able to look forward to continuing with these kinds of actions and decisions in the months and years ahead.

Specifically, it is a matter for the House to decide these matters; it is not a matter for Government. If matters are moved, they will be voted on in that way.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We will have a free vote then.