Dáil debates
Tuesday, 9 March 2010
Ceisteanna - Questions
Departmental Staff.
2:30 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the number of political advisers or assistants appointed by the Attorney General; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48414/09]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the number of personnel employed as political advisers or assistants to the Attorney General; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3183/10]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the number of political advisers appointed by him; the salaries of each and the cost; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3465/10]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the number of political advisers or assistants in addition to the staff of his office appointed by the Attorney General; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3466/10]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 5: To ask the Taoiseach the duties and responsibilities of the special political advisers appointed to him; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5109/10]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 6: To ask the Taoiseach the duties and responsibilities of the special political advisers appointed by him; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8789/10]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 7: To ask the Taoiseach the duties and responsibilities of special advisers or other political staff appointed by him; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8819/10]
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 8: To ask the Taoiseach the duties and responsibilities of advisers or other political staff appointed to the Office of the Attorney General; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8820/10]
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 8, inclusive, together.
There are currently seven special advisers in my Department. Under the direction of my programme manager, Joe Lennon, who is my principal special adviser, their primary functions are to monitor, facilitate and help secure the achievement of Government objectives and to ensure effective co-ordination in the implementation of the programme for Government.
The role and duties of special advisers are described in section 11 of the Public Service Management Act 1997. In summary, these are providing advice; monitoring, facilitating and securing the achievement of Government objectives that relate to the Department, as requested; and performing such other functions as may be directed.
My programme manager meets other ministerial advisers on a weekly basis. He monitors and reports to me on progress in implementing the programme for Government. My advisers liaise with a number of Departments and act as points of contact in my office for Ministers and their advisers. My advisers attend meetings of Cabinet committees and cross-departmental teams relevant to their responsibilities. They also liaise on my behalf with organisations and interest groups outside of Government.
Special advisers are also tasked with giving me advice and keeping me informed on a wide range of issues, including business, financial, economic, political, environmental, administrative and media matters, and performing such other functions as may be directed by me from time to time. In addition, a number of my advisers have specific responsibilities for speech drafting.
The annual salaries for my special advisers are as follows: Joe Lennon, €188,640; Peter Clinch, €194,957; Oliver O'Connor, €156,241; Brian Murphy, €126,718; Gerry Steadman, €126,718; Padraig Slyne, €92,853; and Declan Ryan, €92,672.
Francis Kieran is special assistant to the Attorney General. His functions are to act as a liaison between the Attorney General and me and other Departments on items relevant to legal issues arising from the programme for Government as well as to keep the Attorney General informed on items arising in the Oireachtas or media which could impinge on, or be relevant to, his role. His contractual duties include matters assigned from time to time by the Attorney General and he also participates in meetings of special advisers and attends the Government legislation committee. The position of Attorney General is not a political one and, as such, Mr. Kieran does not provide political advice.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes I find it difficult to pick up all the Taoiseach's responses. Perhaps this is due to the microphone or maybe it is me.
The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has stated that the reason for the delay in producing the reports on the Dublin Docklands Development Authority is because it has to be reviewed and analysed by the Office of the Attorney General. The constant stream of revelations from the authority has obviously become a matter of considerable public interest. The most recent of these revelations involves what appears to be extraordinary amounts of travel expenses for members of the authority's board. Is it the case that the Attorney General does not have sufficient staff to deal with these queries? Why is the Minister unable to publish the report until it is reviewed by the Attorney General? Can the Taoiseach indicate when that might happen?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny's questions are not relevant.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is taking advice from the Taoiseach.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is a question about political advisers.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Hold on a second. The Taoiseach told the Ceann Comhairle that my question had nothing to do with him but this matter concerns political advisers or assistants appointed by the Attorney General.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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In fairness, the Deputy expanded somewhat.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle is taking advice from the Taoiseach.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not a question of taking advice from the Taoiseach. In so far as the Deputy's question relates to the role of the Attorney General, the Taoiseach may wish to respond. However, the question of expanding the question is problematic as far as we are concerned.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am just making the point that the questions relate to the duties and responsibilities of special advisers in my office. I referred to the appointment of an individual who is a special assistant to the Attorney General and his functions. That is not germane to the supplementary question.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The question is the number of political advisers or assistants appointed by the Attorney General. A matter of considerable public importance is being held up because the Office of the Attorney General is not able to review the report of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government says these reports cannot be published because they must wait until the Attorney General's office is able to review them. Is it the Taoiseach's view that the Office of the Attorney General does not have sufficient assistance to review the legal requests before it from the Government? I simply asked the Taoiseach when he expects this will happen and the Ceann Comhairle seems to have responded by indicating there is some difficultly. This is about the assistance of political advisers appointed by the Attorney General and surely it is matter of public concern because extraordinary amounts seem to have been used up by the members of that authority's board. Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the Attorney General has sufficient staff to be able to review the legal requests and reports before him?
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is important to advise that it is not the Taoiseach's responsibility to give a response on that matter.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The questions relate to whether the Attorney General has any political adviser or assistants in respect of matters that are germane. This is why I took questions Nos. 1 to 8 together. They do not refer to general staff. One such assistant was appointed to the Attorney General. The assistant acts as a liaison between the Attorney General and other Departments on items relevant to legal issues arising from the programme for Government. I have no problem answering questions asked of me but it cannot be suggested that I should provide replies to questions which are specific in nature and then deal with general questions arising in respect of a totally different matter-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----although I am informed that it is line with the question set out.
Question time is about eliciting information germane to the questions asked. A trend is arising here every week whereby the Deputy asks questions regardless of what is before me and he has decided I am here to answer them. If he wishes to table a question on matters germane to my responsibilities I will answer them but I cannot reply to everything. Anyway, I am just making that general point. The point the Deputy is making relates to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and a parliamentary question to that Department will elicit the up to date position. As I understand it, the position is that legal and other issues have arisen, which must be considered before the publication of such reports can be provided for and that is ongoing.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will follow through on the Taoiseach's valid comment. He stated one liaison person was appointed to the Office of the Attorney General. Has that person reported to the Taoiseach of a shortage of staff there or that these reports cannot be reviewed? This is a matter of public concern and interest and it has been referred to by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. He has stated that he cannot publish the reports until they are reviewed by Government and the Attorney General. Has the liaison person in the Office of the Attorney General reported to the Taoiseach in respect of when the Attorney General's office will be in a position to provide a report to the Government? It is a valid question given the Taoiseach's observation.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No he has not, nor is it his function to do so.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If not, then what is his liaison function?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have just explained that the liaison function relates to his interaction with the Attorney General and the Departments that deal with him. It relates to the question of reports and legal advice. The Attorney General provides legal advice and it must be considered. It is not a question of the Attorney General being unable to provide the legal advice.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If there is a liaison person appointed to the Office of the Attorney General to liaise with Departments that have interactions with that office then, surely, the Department headed by the head of Government is always in contact with the Office of the Attorney General. It is back to the Taoiseach, as Head of Government, that the message will come stating the Attorney General has reviewed this, the Government is quite entitled to consider it and here is the Attorney General's legal advice in respect of it. All I want to find out from the Taoiseach is, does this liaison person have any broader function to keep the Taoiseach fully acquainted, as I am sure he would want to be, of what is happening.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Ministers and the Attorney General would keep me acquainted. Those are the persons who attend at Cabinet. The question here is-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Matters generally relating to that function are dealt with by that person on the Attorney General's behalf. The person works to the Attorney General, not to me. I have my own list of advisers on matters generally. It is not a question of lack of staff in the Attorney General's office.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Green Party seems to have attached a priority to certain legislation, for example, the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill 2009. One of the specific commitments in the programme for Government is to deal with the long-awaited animal health and welfare Bill which will phase out fur farming and end stag hunting. Has the liaison person informed the Taoiseach as to the current position in so far as that legislation is concerned?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have been listening carefully to the Taoiseach's replies to Deputy Kenny and I am confused as to the function of this political adviser to the Attorney General. Why does the Attorney General have a political adviser in the first place?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He does not have a political adviser.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Then what type of an adviser is he?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He is a special assistant. He does not provide political advice at all.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Is he a lawyer? Is he a legal person?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He is a special assistant to the Attorney General. I will get Deputy Gilmore the details of his qualifications in due course.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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My understanding is that the Attorney General is the official legal adviser to the Government.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach has just told us that this person's job is to liaise with other programme managers and advisers in various Departments about legal issues arising from the programme for Government. If there is somebody in the Attorney General's office whose job is to liaise with other Departments about legal issues arising from the programme for Government, it is not unreasonable to ask if the person is a lawyer? Is he a lawyer?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will get the details of the person's qualifications. I do not have his qualifications before me. He does not work for me but for the Attorney General.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I will await the information but it would be odd if one had somebody dealing with legal issues arising from the programme for Government who was not-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He does not have to be a lawyer if he is a special assistant.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach has told us-----
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He does not have to be but I will find out for Deputy Gilmore.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am trying to understand what it is about. It seems strange that the Attorney General who, effectively, is the law officer of the Government, would have a political adviser. The Taoiseach corrected me stating it is not a political adviser. He had earlier stated that it was to provide liaison of legal issues, etc. I am speculating as to how somebody could do that if he or she was not a lawyer. However, the Taoiseach will clarify that for me.
What are the legal issues arising from the programme for Government? The programme for Government is a political document.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore is expanding the questions. I am not disputing his right to ask that question, but there may be a different way of doing it, by submitting a direct parliamentary question on the matter.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have. I submitted the following direct parliamentary question: "To ask the Taoiseach the duties and responsibilities of advisers or other political staff appointed to the Office of the Attorney General ..."., which question I am pursuing. The Taoiseach, in his reply, stated that he was dealing with legal issues arising from the programme for Government. I am asking the Taoiseach what are the legal issues arising from the programme for Government which are the responsibility of this particular adviser.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He attends the special advisers' meetings where he is able to be au fait with the issues that are arising across Departments and the priorities which may be pushed by special advisers on behalf of various Ministers at these meetings. He also ensures that the Attorney General is au fait with that. He does not provide or issue legal advice to Departments. That function is provided by the advisory counsel in the Office of the Attorney General and by the Attorney General himself.
Mr. Kieran is amply qualified for this position. In addition to his undergraduate and Master's degree, he is a qualified attorney-at-law in the State of New York. He was the first person to hold both the O'Reilly and Fulbright scholarships and was elected by his peers as president of the students union in Trinity College Dublin. He also assisted with legal work on a case in the US Supreme Court for the American National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.
There is an administrative benefit in having a person assisting the Attorney General and his office by monitoring and keeping them abreast of what is happening in the matters in question, thereby allowing them to concentrate on their other duties. The Attorney General should have available a person to liaise on matters relevant to the Government legislation committee and other issues of a legal nature.
The Attorney General cannot personally monitor all that is happening in all Departments and the legislative programmes of all Ministers. With everything being dealt with by his office, he must also monitor matters raised in the Dáil and Seanad. Mr. Kieran brings such matters to the attention of the Attorney General to assist him in discharging his obligations. Enormous demands are placed on the Attorney General and his office by departmental requests for information and data. For several years, individuals have been appointed to liaise with the Attorneys General on such matters.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach said the adviser in the Attorney General's office attends the weekly Government programme managers' and senior political advisers' meetings. It is well-known those meetings are of a political troubleshooting role.
For example, if the report the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, received from Professor Brennan on the Dublin Docklands Development Authority were likely to be politically troublesome to a Minister or Ministers, would that political difficulty be flagged by the respective adviser to the Minister or Ministers concerned for the Attorney General's adviser? Presumably, he or she in turn would flag it for the Attorney General. Would that be part of the adviser's role? If so, where would that leave the independent - if one could call it that - role and function of the Attorney General in providing advice to the Government on such matters?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There is no question whatever of the integrity of the Attorney General being compromised in any way. He gives his advice without fear or favour and is a person of impeccable credentials.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I was not casting aspersions on the Attorney General. I was just asking how the system for advisers operates.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Taoiseach without interruption.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am disabusing Deputy Gilmore of the idea that the Attorney General is compromised or undermined by reason of the fact he gives his advice without fear or favour. The purpose of the assistant to the Attorney General is, as I stated earlier, to assist him in all of the contacts between Departments. There is no way his legal independence is compromised or undermined in any way, and neither would he contemplate it for a moment.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In a time when the Taoiseach and his colleagues are constantly urging belt-tightening, does he believe it would be appropriate to undertake a review of the number of advisers in his Department? Their numbers are over and above the existing staffing complement of the Department. Does he believe it would be appropriate to review the excessive salaries paid to them that range between three to seven times the average industrial wage? How does the Taoiseach justify the maintenance of such a large number of advisers and these salaries when punitive levies are being applied to others in the public service which are having a serious impact on low to middle-income earners? This will lead to an ever-unfolding and deepening crisis in industrial relations within the Civil Service.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin is drifting from the substance and content of the question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This concerns special advisers and how the Taoiseach can justify it. Today, four weeks' notice of industrial action has been served on the HSE by porters, cleaners and security staff within hospital sites across the city. Are these the advisers who advised in respect of the approach to engagement with the public service unions, where ultimately the talks were collapsed and innovative, inventive efforts on behalf of the public service union representatives were roundly dismissed?
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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All appointments, pay, terms and conditions require the sanction of the Minister for Finance. All appointments from outside the Civil Service require the sanction of the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach. Having seven advisers from outside the Department and some who worked in the Civil Service and were seconded to these advisory positions is not a large number given the responsibilities, the relatively small size of my Department and the co-ordination role of the Taoiseach, which requires being properly advised on a range of matters. The salary of advisers is based on the fact that their term coincides with the length of tenure of the holder of the office. Their remuneration applies to pay levels at various grades of the Civil Service in the main. Given the overall responsibility such as overseeing the expenditure of €55 billion, that there are seven advisers available to the Head of Government is not excessive in the circumstances.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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From the programme manager receiving a salary in excess of €200,000 and a senior political adviser receiving almost €200,000, does the Taoiseach accept that this focus would not happen except for the times we are in and the Government has had no hesitation in surgically applying a scalpel to the interests of ordinary low to middle income earners within the public service? In fact, it is not so surgical because the knife has slipped and the people are bleeding profusely.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin is drifting away from the questions under this heading.
3:00 pm
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is the key and critical issue because it has been applied in so many areas with devastating consequences for so many ordinary workers yet a situation maintains in the Department of the Taoiseach where a number of special advisers earn such substantial salaries. Can the Taoiseach advise the House if there is still an arrangement between the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Health and Children whereby special advisers to the Minister, Deputy Harney, are provided for and paid by the Department of the Taoiseach following arrangements entered into in the cobbling together of the coalition in the first instance and when she took up responsibility for the health portfolio in the previous Government? How many advisers to the Department of Health and Children are under the aegis of the Department of the Taoiseach and at what cost?
The Taoiseach must take on board the fact that these questions and their tenor is against the backdrop of the €8.50 cut the carers providing-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is going off on yet another tangent.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----care in the home of elderly and disabled people, in regard to which the Government had no care in the world. We offer no apology for stating that if the Government is prepared to wear that and to watch the suffering as a consequence of its actions then other areas, including the remuneration of special advisers in his Department and across all other Departments, need to be addressed.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The adjustments to pay for people in receipt of salaries similar to grades in the Civil Service affected those advisers as they did everyone else. They had to take cuts in pay, as was the case in other related grades. That goes without saying.
On the question of responsibilities, Mr. Oliver O'Connor, special adviser, provides advice to the Minister for Health and Children and more generally to the Government on health policy matters, which covers a wide range of reform. Reform is necessary. We have seen huge and continuing reforms in the health service, including improvements in cancer care services and so on. Administrative reform must also be proceeded with.
In the context of the total overall spend in Government, including an exclusively public service pay bill of one third of the total of more than €50 billion - we are speaking in this regard of €19,000 million in salaries - the amount of money expended in terms of bringing in advice from outside to supplement and augment this is minuscule when compared to the overall cost of the full complement of civil and other public servants available to advise Government in a whole range of areas.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are many of them.
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will allow a brief supplementary from Deputy Ó Caoláin.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I heard the Taoiseach's response in regard to the special adviser from his Department and the Department of Health and Children being directly involved in reform exercises. People in my constituency - the Minister, my colleague from the constituency is sitting beside the Taoiseach - do not, as does the Taoiseach, view this as reform. What has happened in regard to the acute hospital network in places such as Monaghan-----
Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have another opportunity to raise that matter.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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------and many other communities throughout the country is far from reform.
Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There has been reform in all of those areas.