Mary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this debate because I see it as addressing accountability. The issue is anchored by the Fine Gael motion about CIE but Dáil reform and accountability of our Ministers and Governments to the taxpayer is fundamental to what we are discussing. Like my colleague, Deputy Broughan, I have some concerns with elements of the motion proposed by Fine Gael. I am uneasy that this is the thin end of the wedge to promote privatisation of our public transport network.

I want to concentrate on the wider aspects of accountability. The lack of Oireachtas oversight of Exchequer funding and policy of semi-State organisations is a fundamental problem. I find it extremely irritating to be at the receiving end of parliamentary questions that are regularly refused by the Ceann Comhairle's office. As a Member of this House for more than ten years, it seems there are more areas for which Ministers are not responsible to this House, and by extension to the people and the taxpayers, than there are areas for which they have responsibility. A conscious decision has been taken by this Government and its predecessors, stretching back to 1997, to abdicate responsibility for the majority of policy and implementation issues. This pervades all aspects of the working of the Dáil. When correspondence on issue is sent to a semi-State organisation or a Department, it can take months to receive a response.

I can cite a number of examples of how this has affected me when I seek information. Last July I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform concerning the cost of Garda drivers and cars for former Taoisigh. I submitted a second question ten days ago and have not received a substantial reply, other than the Minister's statement that it was a matter for the Garda Síochána and the organisation would revert to me. It is interesting that this information was available for publication in one of yesterday's newspapers. Mysteriously, I received a reply yesterday afternoon after the information had been published in a national newspaper. This is no way to do business. It leaves me feeling quite aggrieved that information requested in July became available five months later. One can tolerate a certain time lag but this incubation period seems protracted. One must wonder why this information is not being made available as one might expect.

As Labour Party spokesperson on arts, sport and tourism, I find the problem of lack of response acute. I could wallpaper my office with the number of questions that have been disallowed by the Ceann Comhairle's office. The number of questions I have submitted where the Minister has no responsibility to the House leads me to question what he is responsible for and what work is being done by the Department. This is particularly true when one considers that reports submitted by the Department are undertaken by consultants. I have many examples of questions on quangos that have been disallowed. I submitted a question to the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism asking for his policy direction to Fáilte Ireland and if he would make a statement on the air travel tax and his views on the call by the tourism renewal group to abolish the fee. The reply stated that he had no responsibility for these matters. It appears the Minister has no responsibility for developing tourism policy, nor for addressing the air travel tax that the tourism industry claims is destroying the industry. This is a view backed by the Government's tourism renewal group. The Minister has no responsibility for the horse and greyhound fund, which funds one of the largest elements of his Department's budget and no responsibility to address a major spat between two organisations which received State funding, namely, the Olympic Council and the Irish Sports Council.

In the area of transport, answers are not available on issues raised on the M50 toll booths and the thousands of commuters who have been fined because they have only 48 hours to pay. No issues are addressed with regard to road safety. It is a matter for the RSA even though this body is under the aegis of the Department. During the week, I had a query from somebody about only 48 hours being available to pay toll charges. I understand there must be a time limit but this is an issue the Minister might reasonably take up. He might like to consider that a little time extension might not be out of order for somebody who has great difficulty in finding access to a means of payment. Of course, the individual will end up paying it but it is causing unnecessary hassle.

As the motion states, the current lack of accountability leads to an unjustified democratic deficit at the heart of Government. The Government's counter-motion is typical of this and shows its lack of respect for the House; it is bland and meaningless and does not address the motion in any serious way. Recently, politics has come under intense criticism and scrutiny with people stating that the Dáil is out of touch. Deputies are not out of touch; it is just that the Government Whip and the Ceann Comhairle refuse any real debate and the accountability of Ministers is selective to say the least. Surely a Minister should be held accountable for the actions of semi-State bodies under his or her aegis and to which they provide very substantial funding.

For weeks I have tried to raise the issue of Crumlin Children's Hospital by way of an Adjournment debate but it has been rejected at least six times, including today. We have committees with no power to compel so people such as the public bankers, as they now are, and those suspected of malpractice in semi-State bodies can simply refuse to come before the committee and that is the end of the story.

I am aware that the issues I am raising are not the main thrust of this debate but I consider them to be very fundamental to it and, as I stated at the beginning, using the central issue of CIE is simply an anchor as it really relates back to accountability. In my portfolio, that lack of accountability is very damaging and it is also very disturbing for me not to be able to get the answers for my constituents in a reasonable timeframe.

I asked how many of the questions I submitted to the Minister for Health and Children are answered by her and how many are redirected to the HSE. More than 50% go to the HSE. Again, the thorny questions are whacked aside and we are left wondering if and when we will get an answer. On occasions, I have forgotten the theme of my question or why I needed to ask it before I have received a reply.

To return to the other theme of the Fine Gael motion, I agree with my colleague, Deputy Tommy Broughan, that expecting commercial semi-State bodies to be accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts and under freedom of information legislation could leave them at profound disadvantage vis-À-vis private sector companies.

It is clear from the Baker Tilly report that there were serious lapses in internal controls in Irish Rail. Being a semi-State body is no excuse for lapsed internal controls or anything less than high productivity and efficiency. Any notions of privatisation being the panacea to problems in our transport network is not the way to go. The privatisation of the rail network in the UK has been a disaster with costs for commuters now exorbitant. I have no doubt that private operators would be happy to operate on profitable routes such as Dublin to Galway or Swords to the city centre but on behalf of my constituents I am very concerned that they would not take such a great interest in other routes important to people in Crumlin and Cherry Orchard, for example. Notwithstanding the aspect of the debate on CIE and public transport, I am most concerned about the fundamental question on accountability.

Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Timmy Dooley and Mattie McGrath.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ciarán Cuffe (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I welcome Fine Gael's motion, the thrust of which is to seek accountability and transparency. If we are to respond in detail to the motion, we must address the fundamental issue of seeking greater accountability to the State and transparency in all aspects and not just in semi-State companies. I firmly believe in the principles of transparency and I applaud the work done by Transparency International in trying to open up more bodies, in particular public bodies, to scrutiny. We need to go much further. The freedom of information legislation, much of which goes back to former Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald of the Labour Party, is very commendable and I applaud her for introducing it to the House ten or 15 years ago. We should not neglect the principles put in place by that Government.

I want to focus on some of the figures mentioned in the motion and the purposes to which they are put. The €6.23 billion invested in CIE since 1997 is a mix of capital payments to fund transport infrastructure and current payments to meet the current cost needs of Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and Irish Rail for public service obligation, PSO, route subvention, or more accurately, to meet the shortfall between the revenue take by each company and their total expenditure. Based on the previous four years, this works out at a current to capital ratio of approximately 45% to 50%.

The subsidy the Government gives to Dublin Bus has increased by 34% since 2002 but is low in comparison to other European cities. In 2007, the PSO payment was 29% of total revenue compared to 62% in Amsterdam, 68% in Brussels and 38% in London. Part of the thrust of the motion is to deal with elements of value for money for the taxpayer.

With regard to the subvention that the Government gives CIE to meet the shortfall in providing public transport services, the company actually performs. The 2006 Booz Allen Hamilton report found that with regard to value for money for the subvention all three companies had performed well overall. It found with regard to value for money in Iarnród Éireann that a large number of statistics are produced and generally show improvements in efficiency levels; the cost per unit of fleet, per passenger and per passenger kilometre are reducing; and that subvention increased by 16.6% in real terms and by 1.2% per passenger.

With regard to value for money in Bus Éireann, it found that productivity and cost efficiency statistics generally show improvements in terms of kilometres per driver, operating costs per vehicle, and that customer journeys per bus and per kilometre have decreased due to traffic congestion. I throw down the gauntlet to Fine Gael and ask what it is doing about traffic congestion, as its only real ideology in recent times has been to limit the efficacy of the bus gate in Dublin city? I understand businesses are suffering but I would not place their problems at the foot of improving bus transit through the city centre. To return to the report on value for money in Bus Éireann, subvention decreased by 4.9% in real terms and by 13.7% per passenger.

For Dublin Bus, revenue per kilometre fell as did revenue per driver. Subvention increased by 11.3% in real terms and at a slower rate per passenger. Among the recommendations in the report was to strengthen the terms of the memoranda of understanding between the Government and the companies on the basis that taxpayers' money is paid to provide for better accountability of funding and to link performance levies to moneys paid. While these memoranda have been put in place, they have not been sufficiently clear in linking of where taxpayers' moneys go into the subvention or on what criteria they need to be assessed. We must shine a torch into what is a fairly dark hole and give much more clarity to the taxpayer. That will benefit the public transport companies and the Minister in his work.

An important function of the new national transport authority will be setting the terms of public service contracts so that a clearer link can be drawn between the money the Government gives to CIE and the services provided in return. Criteria set out under the public service contracts will include the places and routes to be served by the transport operator, service standards and frequency, accessibility requirements and emissions standards for pollutants and noise. These contracts will be a better yardstick for determining how the subventions are allocated and, ultimately, whether companies provide a good service to commuters.

I challenge the Labour Party and Fine Gael to consider the significant differences that exist between them in regard to funding public transport. As far as I can see, Fine Gael is taking a laissez faire approach in letting market competition determine the type of services to be provided. The Labour Party, however, sees the State as the provider of public transport services. The best solution is probably closer to the latter model. The data shows that the UK experience of bundling services in London and a free-for-all in other cities did not serve the best interests of commuters. I would hate to think that we would allow the cherry-picking of profitable routes in Dublin.

The best body to determine what new routes need to be put in place is the Dublin Transport Authority. The views of public transport users should also be sought. I am cautiously optimistic that the DTA will provide transparent data because that is the way the world is going. I recently used a Google Maps function which relies on public transport data to show how well certain places are served by public transport.

We are still living in the 1930s when it comes to providing clear information about services in Ireland. Yet again, I must rant about the way Dublin Bus puts on its bus stops information about when a bus was supposed to have left the terminal. This is useless to the passenger and I look forward to being able to consult real time passenger information at bus stops, in buses and on one's mobile telephone. It is not rocket science; it involves simple computer technology which was developed for rural towns in Westphalia 25 years ago. It is about time we delivered the goods for the people of our cities and towns. Public transport will be used if people feel confident about its delivery, punctuality and accessibility.

I commend Fine Gael on seeking further transparency but I worry about the party's ideological weakness in seeing the market as the best provider of services. The State can provide top class public transport services by demanding transparency and proper information. The Comptroller and Auditor General or the Committee of Public Accounts should not be left with the responsibility of finding out what happened in our public transport companies one, three or five years ago. We need to shine more light on the subject and, while the Fine Gael motion goes a distance towards that objective, the public will benefit from even more transparency. The Public Transport Regulation Bill 2009 will greatly assist us in this task.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and support amendment No. 1, which recognises the significant advances that have been made in our transport infrastructure over the past ten years. We are all aware of the historical lack of investment in rolling stock, bus services and infrastructure but the investments made over the past decade have removed many of the obstacles that were in the way of economic growth.

We are at present experiencing a significant recession which is affecting tourism and employment. However, we should continue to invest in transport infrastructure because we can achieve exceptional value for money in the current economic environment and will be in a position to make the best use of our investments when the economy returns to growth. Sustainable growth in Ireland has been impeded by the fact that other countries are ahead of us in terms of infrastructure. The property bubble in large part reflected our zeal to develop infrastructure. Our investments in transport infrastructure have resulted in reduced road journey times and high quality public transport.

The National Roads Authority has worked hard to deliver an inter-urban network, in line with Government policy. Many projects are now being completed on time and within budget. By the end of next year, Dublin will be connected with Cork, Limerick and Galway through a high quality road network. That will be the backbone for our economic recovery. Other examples of the high quality work done by the NRA include the fine bridge which has recently been opened in Waterford and the upgrade of the M50. In my constituency, the N18 Ennis bypass is complete and work is ongoing on the Crusheen-Gort dual carriageway. The next stage of work on the N18 is the connection to Oranmore. This is a critical project in terms of connecting Galway and Limerick and developing the orbital route around the country. The Limerick Shannon tunnel is due to be completed next year. The skills developed by the NRA in recent years are now producing dividends by delivering important projects on time. The enhanced road network has a major impact on the west of Ireland in providing direct access to Shannon Free Zone and Shannon Airport. It provides enhanced and quicker access and increases the catchment area of the airport which also has tourism benefits.

I compliment Deputy Mary O'Rourke who, as Minister for Public Enterprise, commenced the regeneration of the rail network. She deserves great recognition for her work in this regard. The Minister's successors, the late Séamus Brennan and the current Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, have focused on providing funding for the rail network. This additional funding will benefit all citizens and must continue at this difficult time.

Bus and rail services have developed positively, with new buses and rolling stock providing a more comfortable experience for passengers. The new stock is also much more eco-friendly, an important factor in public transport. The reliability and quality of current stock ensures services are more frequent and no longer prone to breaking down.

Some of the benefits of the development of the railways are visible in my constituency where the Ennis to Limerick line re-opened in recent years. Passenger activity on the new service has greatly surpassed expectations and use of the service has delivered tremendous benefits to Ennis town and the people who live and work in it. It also allows people to travel frequently between Ennis and Limerick. The continued investment in phase one of the western rail corridor will be of significant benefit to the entire region extending from Ennis to Galway. As money and time permits, I am sure further extension along the western seaboard will deliver the connectivity required in the region. Under the first phase of the project, a new rail station will open at Sixmilebridge and will provide bus access from and to the airport. I am working with a number of individuals and State agencies to try to ensure a station is opened at Crusheen to give those living in north and east County Clare access to rail services. I hope our efforts will be successful.

As a State provider of transport services, Bus Éireann has delivered good services on commercial and PSO type routes throughout Ireland. The company's investment in new buses and routes under Transport 21 has benefited most citizens. I concur with Deputy Cuffe that the contribution of Fine Gael Party Deputies on the Public Transport Regulation Bill 2009 seeks to undermine Bus Éireann. The open tendering they propose would wreck Bus Éireann, have a negative, long-term impact on users of the service and diminish integration in the company's network.

Value for money is a critical component of Government expenditure of hard-earned taxpayers' money. We must ensure guidelines are not breached. I am impressed by some of the independent reports prepared in the CIE group of companies, specifically the Deloitte reports, which clearly demonstrate significant value for money achievements in the companies.

With regard to matters in Irish Rail which, I assume, are the genesis of this debate, I was reassured by the presentation made by the company chairman and chief executive to the Joint Committee on Transport, of which I and Deputy Feighan are members. I will cite a short passage from a document circulated to the joint committee which discussed the investigation. It stated:

...all of the issues that were the subject of this investigation:

- Were identified internally and investigated by Iarnród Éireann

- Were addressed specifically by dealing with three individuals found to have engaged in fraudulent behaviour

- Were advised to the Gardaí by Iarnród Éireann

- Were further investigated following the commissioning of Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon (BTRG) by Iarnród Éireann

- Were addressed by a series of action plans, which commenced prior to the completion of the BTRG report, and were reinforced and supported by the findings of BRTG.

- Continue to be addressed through the implementation of action plans, which is well advanced, and is tracked by the Iarnród Éireann Audit Review Group and the CIÉ Board Audit Committees

While some have sought to make a big issue out of this matter, the malpractices, which no one supports, were identified internally and addressed properly by the management structure in the company. Furthermore, a process is in place to ensure such practices do not recur. The issue must be considered in the context of the massive investment in Iarnród Éireann in recent years. I have every confidence in the ability of the management team and board to deal with any other issues which may arise from time to time. Deputies must stop belittling the good companies which have provided a State service for many years and, by association, damaging their good name and the reputation of thousands of people who work hard on behalf of taxpayers.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)
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While the Government is to be commended on its achievements in upgrading our roads and public transport infrastructure, issues arise with regard to CIE and accountability in the National Roads Authority. As a member of a Government party, I am restrained and must vote with the Government to keep it in business. I will not, however, be gagged or silenced on the National Roads Authority.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Deputy will give Deputy Dooley some advice.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Dooley is well able to speak on his own behalf.

I appreciate that some fascinating, imaginative and constructive work has been done in many road projects. The M50 upgrade is a case in point, while the Red Cow interchange is a fine example of well designed infrastructure that works well. Many of those who drove past the construction site in the past two and a half years did not believe the interchange would be completed. The Dublin Port tunnel has also been opened and, more recently, a fantastic bridge was completed over the River Suir in Waterford city, upstream from where I live.

In the few minutes available to me, I propose to raise several concerns about the accountability to the Oireachtas of the National Roads Authority and its senior officials. In March last, when Mr. Michael Egan and Mr. Martin Fagan of the NRA appeared before the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to discuss compulsory purchase orders, I extended a céad míle fáilte to them and complimented the National Road Authority on undertaking the most extensive roads improvement programme in the history of the State. I also noted the benefits of this work, which include reduced travel times, safer roads and improved access to the regions, all of which have important social and economic benefits.

I remain severely critical, however, of certain aspects of the various stages of major road construction projects, namely, construction studies, route selection options, preferred route selection and compulsory purchase orders. I reiterate that the Department of Transport must make serious changes to the legislation under which the National Roads Authority operates. A statutory provision must be introduced to compel the National Roads Authority to make up-front payments of up to 75% of the total compensation payable on the date of the publication of the compulsory purchase order. Payments should not be made years later - perhaps following arbitration - when the road has been built and everyone else has been paid. Members of the public often enjoy the benefits of a road before landowners, home owners and families have been compensated. A mechanism should be introduced to require that 50% and possibly 75% of the total compensation payable should be paid up front. It is a form of highway robbery to compulsory acquire land without paying for it.

I am also critical of the enormous discrepancies in the price paid per acre for land acquired under compulsory purchase orders. I condemn the practice engaged in by the National Roads Authority and local authorities of employing expensive teams of consultants. While I accept the expertise of consultants is necessary, an industry has evolved in which consultants tout for business and agencies negotiate on behalf of the families affected. This system is wrong and does not result in the desired outcomes.

Many families and communities who are severely affected by road schemes have been ignored and mistreated by the NRA and local authorities. One might be badly affected even if none of one's property is taken by a compulsory purchase order because one might live ten feet away. There can significant inconvenience as a result of a road severing the community. The construction process, which may take a number of years, may also cause major inconvenience and one may not be respected and may be regarded as persona non grata. When a compulsory purchase order is executed, everybody inside its lines is dealt with but the families and ordinary people who live outside the line are also badly affected.

Local authorities must be made more accountable during all stages of the process. Construction studies, route selection, preferred route selection, compulsory purchase orders, notice to treat and the construction process encompasses a wide area and have long-term effects on families and communities. There must be an in-built mechanism to enable the necessary changes to be made to the layout during and after the completion of the road works schemes when obvious problems or inadequacies arise. It may not be possible to complete what has been designed and planned. Changes to and tweaking of plans are necessary but there must be a mechanism to allow people to be consulted on and involved in the process.

Some money has been very well spent, but questions remain to be answered on the significant amount which has been very badly spent or wasted. Transparent and accountable procedures should be in place and people should be held accountable when mistakes are made and money is wasted. I often wonder why the NRA was set up as it seems to be another quango to distance the elected and appointed Ministers from the democratic process. Deputies cannot get answers within a reasonable timeframe and questions to the Minister are usually passed to the NRA for reply. A pass the issue approach is taken by county councils and the NRA on matters and it is not good enough. Ministers must come to the House and reply to questions.

There is a new motorway from Cork to Dublin which is a fine project and a much safer road. I was chairperson of the county council when the project was decided upon and signed all the compulsory purchase orders. I also signed a contract, which was hailed as one of the best at the time and was totally modern, for a €260 million fixed price project to be delivered at a certain time and within budget, with penalty clauses if this did not happen. When I attended the sod-turning ceremony two years later when the project had been under way for a couple of months, I nearly fell off my chair when the then chairman of the council said the project price was €460 million.

The cost of the project increased by €200 million within 18 or 19 months. The project was supposed to operate within the contract to which I signed my name. I am not happy about the situation and will not be unless I get proper answers. The road was opened some time ago and I refused to attend the official opening because I got no answers to the questions I asked. At that time, the cost of the road had increased by another €60 million or €70 million but there was a fanfare on the day and it was claimed the road was built within budget and on time, and in accordance with the new type of contract which was signed. Clearly, there were major discrepancies which is not good enough and people must be made more accountable to public representatives such as myself and to the public.

Large land banks near the new M8 were acquired and are now surplus to requirements. I cannot understand why it was necessary to do that. Vast areas of land are now left around the outside parameters of roads. There is a wide open area where transient traders have moved in and cannot be shifted. There are 40 acres of land between Cashel and Mitchelstown which were subject to a compulsory purchase order at very substantial cost, some of which must still be paid for, and which are now left as wasteland. Weeds of all kinds are growing there and transient traders, who do not pay rates or taxes, are taking business from ordinary businesspeople. There are significant questions to be answered. I will support the Government amendment to this motion. I have major issues which I will always state and maintain.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I wish to share time with Deputies Andrew Doyle, Michael Ring, James Reilly, Pat Breen, John Perry, Shane McEntee and Fergus O'Dowd.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I support this motion. CIE and the NRA are not accountable or transparent. CIE and Irish Rail have done a lot of work on the Sligo line, which now has eight services per day, and over the years a lot of money has been poured into the line which has made a big difference to public transport. However, there has not been a joined-up approach in the provision of public buses, rail services and school transport in rural areas. CIE has failed to provide a national transport system. If one is served by a mainline rail service, one can take a train. If one is travelling by rail from Boyle, Carrick-On-Shannon or Castlerea in Roscommon to Dublin, it can cost €70 or €80 for two adults and two children, but if one gets on in Longford, a town in Leinster, it only costs €20. When I asked the Minister about this, he said it was something for which he was not responsible. We are elected by the people and should be responsible for getting answers to these types of questions.

Bodies such as the NRA, Irish Rail and the HSE have been set up, but it is embarrassing when one writes to the NRA and does not receive a letter or a reply comes back which is nonsense. Many elderly people have a free travel pass, some of whom have not used it for 20 years. The country is divided - if one lives in a rural area one has something which is of no use because one will have to get a lift to a train or bus station to travel to Dublin. One might as well get a taxi to Dublin. While Irish Rail and Bus Éireann have done a lot of good, they have failed us in that regard. The rural transport initiative is up and running and perhaps we should now examine how transport works at a local level because committees are now in place. I understand the rural transport initiative receives €11 million in funding each year and provides a wonderful service with very little finance. It also has a social aspect. It is an area to which we are not paying enough attention.

There are motorways to Belfast, Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway, but there is nothing to the north west. The N4 stops at Mullingar and another road is in place, but it is not good enough. The people of the north west demand a good transport system. Who decided which areas to build motorways to? If one looks at any map, one will see a gaping area in the north of Galway and that the area west of the Belfast line is left without a motorway. It is not good enough but when one questions the Minister on it, he says it is not his decision but rather that of the NRA. It is wrong and puts the two fingers up to the people of the west, the north west and those who live north of Galway.

We have the N61 and bypasses but when one asks for the issue of roads to be examined, one is told there is no provision to address national secondary roads, despite the fact that they are the worst roads in the country and a significant number of accidents take place on them. One can spend €500,000 on putting overlay on a road, but national secondary roads need serious investment. Until the Government, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, are openly responsible for the provision of services such as road, rail and public transport in the country, we will hear the same nonsense we have heard for many years. I do not know why we are afraid of transparency because it is a must.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The essence of this motion is transparency and accountability in agencies and arms of the State that have commonly become known as quangos and which are at arm's length from direct accountability to this House. The two bodies referred to in the motion have annual budgets of €20 billion, which was recently as much as the estimated Government deficit. The ghost of FÁS has not left the room either, as it had received €1 billion in Government funding. All the abuses that took place there informed some of the thinking behind the effort to open these Government agencies, quangos and authorities to better scrutiny.

The Government amendment to the motion notes the positive assessments of the value for money reviews which have been completed on the subvention to CIE and rail safety investment. It further notes the comprehensive arrangements in place as required by the establishing legislation and code of practice for the governance of State bodies. However, it took a report from Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon to uncover a series of wrongdoing and corruption, which cannot be tolerated.

The final point of the Government amendment acknowledges that both the NRA and CIE appear regularly before the relevant Oireachtas committees. In seven years, representatives of Dublin Bus have appeared five times, those from Bus Éireann have appeared three times, those from Irish Rail have appeared eight times and those from the NRA have come before a committee 14 times. Although that is not bad, it is still only twice a year over the seven years.

Subvention to Dublin Bus has multiplied by a factor of five in ten years and it has multiplied by a factor of six in Bus Éireann. We must consider value for money. I have a letter from the Minister for Transport regarding the rural transport programme, which is in serious jeopardy. Deputy Feighan mentioned that many people who have free travel passes are not in a position to avail of them, although the rural transport scheme has helped them do so and opened up a new world for them. We have had representations from such people before the transport committee giving a picture of how positive that has been for people. Even if we only consider CIE, it has €6.23 billion and a very small percentage of that figure, by making best use of those funds, could help to ensure that a very efficient rural transport system stays in place.

The commuter train from Dublin to Wexford through Arklow is a particular hobby horse of mine. It currently takes practically as long for a train leaving Amiens Street station to get to Arklow as it does for the Enterprise to get to Belfast. It is an overcrowded service, although it is meant to have received the old Sligo train when the new intercity rail fleet was rolled out. It is still a four-carriage train but it is overcrowded at its busiest time. We are trying to encourage people to avail of public transport.

Deputy Cuffe made a snide comment about Fine Gael's policy of closing down bus corridors around College Green. When we have a comprehensive and integrated transport system for the city, we could consider such issues in their totality. One cannot make an omelette without cracking an egg. We must be conscious of the repercussions for not doing things right and in the case of the bus corridors, local businesses were an important factor.

All we are trying to do is ensure that public money is spent properly and that we get value for money. The accountability of these bodies to this House must be enhanced. That is not too much to ask. The people have put us here to ensure their money is being spent correctly and without changing our attitude, there will be an air of denial with regard to these agencies. Deputy McGrath has alluded to the fact that these bodies were meant to solve all problems and make more efficient use of public funding but without having some accountability, the temptation in these organisations with such large budgets is to be sloppy, lazy and at worst, corrupt.

I will read from the Minister's letter. It states:

I am pleased to inform you of the Government's commitment to the continuation and expansion of the rural transport programme. The recently revised programme for Government states that the provision of a full-scale transport system in rural areas, using the network expertise of Bus Éireann, the physical infrastructure and personal resources of the school transport system and the financial resources currently spent on transport by the HSE and the Department of Education and Science will be explored.

The problem is that there is no mention of private involvement, which has been a core factor in the rural transport scheme. There have been small, independent operators in the rural areas making a living and employing people within that scheme in a very cost-efficient and effective way. There has been value for money way beyond what can be costed in pounds, shillings and pence.

Deputy Upton referred earlier to this being a Trojan horse for privatisation and had concerns about cherry-picking. There is a concern but it is possible for us to have independent health care providers in this country, such as BUPA, which became Quinn, and the others. The aspect of community rating has been built into these. When Telecom Éireann was being privatised, we should have insisted on the bid including a provision to roll out broadband nationally. The final figure for Eircom may not have been as attractive but the cost at the end of ten years would have been cheaper because the broadband network would already have been rolled out. It was a mistake to get rid of the network in the first place.

These issues can be overcome. Nobody in Fine Gael has said that privatisation is a panacea for inefficiencies but by introducing competition, it could play its part.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to this Private Members' motion. As the main shareholder of State and semi-State companies, the taxpayer demands and is entitled to value for money. This guiding principle should underpin the provision and delivery of all services throughout the public sector. Indications in recent weeks of an internal report which suggests that the taxpayer has been exposed to possibly €9 million in costs as a result of alleged malpractices in Irish Rail have once again heightened fears that millions of euro in taxpayers' money have being squandered and that such practices are rampant throughout the public sector.

Wide-ranging changes need to be made to ensure that public confidence is restored and we want to see an end to the cosy cartel practice of appointments to State boards, which has seen the friends of Government land plumb jobs. This Government can no longer ignore the calls for the introduction of a vetting system for public appointments. We are all familiar with the US Senate hearings and across the water in the UK, vetting powers for MPs were introduced earlier this year which enable a select committee to scrutinise ministerial appointments.

The Exchequer provides over €300 million to CIE, which is distributed between Iarnród Éireann, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. It is a substantial amount of money. While the focus now is on the lack of controls and procedures in place at CIE, I point out that the company is engaged in some very worthwhile developments and I have to compliment larnród Éireann for expanding its network, with plans for further expansion. This is in contrast to other semi-State bodies, which are moving to centralise and remove services from the regions.

It is not only CIE which needs to come under the scope of inquiry, as openness and transparency must become the norm in all State and semi-State organisations. We can take the airport sector as an example. In 2004, a decision was taken to separate the three airports but five years later, it was announced that the entire process has been deferred until 2011. I understand from the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, that new corporate governance structures have to be put in place as a result. Under the new structure, the board of the Dublin Airport Authority will assume overall responsibility. The chairpersons of the Shannon and Cork airport authorities will sit on the Dublin board, while a Dublin Airport Authority executive will sit on the Shannon and Cork boards. Shannon and Cork airports have had to play second fiddle to Dublin for far too long. As a representative of County Clare, I emphasise that we cannot afford another board that is constituted in Dublin and does not have adequate representation from the regions. I remind the Minister for Transport that, in the absence of new structures, there is no board at all at Shannon Airport. When the Minister eventually gets around to selecting his nominees, I hope he will give the nod to people from the region with vast experience in aviation, tourism and marketing, rather than doling out jobs for the boys once more.

The Government is great at espousing commitments to balanced regional development, but its record of inaction speaks for itself. It established a task force under the chairmanship of Mr. Denis Brosnan, but it has not implemented any of its recommendations. It has allowed negotiations between Ryanair and the Shannon Airport Authority to break down. I understand that one of the key stumbling blocks to an agreement is the €10 air travel tax, which the Government introduced and therefore can do something about. Many aviation matters are outside its remit, but there is nothing to prevent it from abolishing this tax. When I asked the Minister for Transport yesterday to intervene to get both parties back to the table, he said he has no statutory function in this regard. If that is the case, what was the Tánaiste talking about last Friday in the mid-west when she claimed that talks between the Government and Ryanair regarding the travel tax were ongoing?

The reputations of the many State and semi-State organisations that deliver first-class services in this country are being sullied by the failure of the Government to put a proper and transparent system in place, to agree adequate controls and to demand accountability, which is so important. I agree that the exclusion of certain semi-State bodies from the freedom of information system is not healthy, but instead adds to the suspicion and veil of secrecy. It is important that these bodies' masters - the Ministers who sit on the deck - should be made more accountable. They should be answerable to this House for the sectors for which they are responsible.

Most speakers have said that the Government must be accountable for the National Roads Authority at a time when a great deal of road building is taking place. It is important that we get the road network completed as soon as possible. I understand that the NRA's budget will be cut substantially next year. There are rumours that the Castleisland bypass will be the only project to begin in 2010. I hope that is not the case. Regardless of what else happens in a recession, road building should continue because it is extremely important.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The State is a major purchaser of goods and services. Over the years, there have been many complaints about the public sector procurement system. An endless series of reports has pointed out the failures in the system. New procedures for public procurement have been recommended many times. Quite simply, the enforcement of the existing common sense regulations is badly needed. A simple solution would be to extend the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General to include a special procurement assessment unit. If the Comptroller and Auditor General had the power to conduct evaluations across the public sector, it would ensure that the minimum procurement standards and procedures are observed. The absence of real accountability and transparency in controlling the manner in which vast sums of taxpayers' money are spent is a problem not just for the two State organisations mentioned in my party's motion, but for the entire range of Government agencies and authorities.

According to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, local authorities spent €10 billion in 2007, approximately 55% of which related to capital expenditure. Given that this capital spend of over €5 billion represents a large amount of money, it is quite extraordinary that local authorities are not under the control of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. They should be under the control of that office. A recent freedom of information request to a Dublin local authority, in relation to proposed capital expenditure, revealed that no cost-benefit analysis of the project had been conducted by the authority. The proposed expenditure could prove to be a waste of public money. A review of the project documentation showed that data on the benefits of the project were requested from its initiators, but it was not forthcoming.

We have an opportunity to provide for the carrying out of cost-benefit assessments, in which costs can be estimated with some degree of accuracy. The current system, whereby benefits are recorded by means of general statements, does not meet the minimum requirement for a proper cost-benefit analysis. The real shortcomings are evident in such an analysis. The introduction of a proper system of parliamentary oversight for CIE, the NRA and the other agencies and semi-State bodies which receive billions of taxpayers' funds will be facilitated by the system of cost-benefit analysis I am advocating. I appreciate that the NRA comes under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. However, it does not conduct cost-benefit analyses of its projects. It has sanctioned cost over-runs and massive over-spends. It should be possible to compare the actual outcome, across a range of costs and services and under approved headings, to the planned outcomes.

I accept that value for money is not a new concept. It has always been an important element of Fine Gael policy. In the future, there must be a renewed emphasis on better value for money in the various national capital expenditure programmes. We are in difficult times, in which less money is available. People are looking for cost-benefit analyses with a clear emphasis on value for money. The powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General should be extended to local government. We need to examine the special cost-benefit reports that are carried out. Over the past 12 years, when there was plenty of money, no cost-benefit analyses were carried out in certain areas. Money was turfed out. Projects were defined by how many millions of euro were being spent on them, rather than on the out-turn. It is important that we examine the out-turn. The building and construction sectors are exerting considerable pressure for additional capital expenditure to take place during the current economic downturn. In that context, it is even more critical for formal cost-benefit studies to be conducted before projects are approved. The expenditure of hard-earned and scarce taxpayers' money on new capital projects without proper cost-benefit analysis is no more than another form of corporate welfare. This is inappropriate at a time when social welfare payments to the most disadvantaged people in society are being cut.

I believe this is an important motion. It is important that appointments to boards are scrutinised. Under the US model, people who are proposed for appointment are brought before a committee so that their suitability can be cross-examined. Such a system gives the appointee an understanding of his or her remit. He or she will have an exact understanding of the benefits and responsibilities attached to the job. He or she will have a genuine belief in the responsibilities ensuing for that. The time has come to protect taxpayers' money. We have a massive deficit. Billions of euro are being curtailed. It is appropriate for us to get value for money. The suitability of political appointees for such positions should be scrutinised by the House. I believe such a procedure of appointment would greatly facilitate accountability and transparency. Ultimately, it would ensure the right people are in the right place.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I will truncate my contribution to allow Deputy Sheehan to speak. I was delayed at a parliamentary party meeting. I will be brief. I congratulate the Ceann Comhairle officially on his recent appointment.

The obvious purpose of this motion is to ensure that there is greater accountability on the part of the National Roads Authority and the various elements of the CIE Group, including Bus Éireann, Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus. This motion is timely and essential at a time when we are spending so much money on infrastructure. My party colleague, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd has informed me that €6.23 billion has been spent by CIE since 1997 and €13 billion has been spent by the NRA since 2000. I do not suggest that we should not spend so much money on infrastructure - of course we should. We have to be able to assure ourselves and the public that we are getting value for money, but we are not in a position to do so.

The three key principles that underpin everything we do in Fine Gael are transparency, accountability and fairness. One cannot get fairness if one does not have accountability. One cannot get accountability without transparency. We do not have sufficient transparency - that is what is wrong - and therefore these organisations are not as accountable as they should be. The recent collapse of the railway viaduct at Malahide Estuary, which could have cost 1,100 lives, is a case in point. It would have been the greatest disaster in Irish history if it had not been for the quick thinking of the driver who saw the changes in the water and alerted others that something was seriously wrong. We have been told by sea scouts that an inspection took place after they reported changes months earlier. I sat in on a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport with Deputy O'Dowd and it took us two hours to extract a bit of information as to the type of inspection that was done. It was done looking down over the bridge as far as I can make out because the gentleman concerned did not go down in a boat and did not get down and look at the pier. I am afraid that is not something that imbues confidence in the people. Tonight I call on Iarnród Éireann to ensure its inspections are more thorough than that and I have some proposals to make at the end. The point about this is that if we do not have its representatives in here frequently enough and there is not a proper direct reporting mechanism we will not get the reassurances that we need to reassure the public. In the future there should be regular examinations, the nature of which are described, including whether it is underwater or overwater, that details of these inspections are posted on the web and arrangements are made to notify the local authority. It is more than just the viaduct in Malahide involved here; there are others around the country.

Arising from this we have seen how Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann can rise to the occasion by putting on additional buses that go directly from Skerries, Rush and Lusk, Balbriggan and Donabate into Dublin, the 33X, 33D and the 101X. This has been so successful that following representations from me and others, Dublin Bus agreed to continue the service. However, we received notification tonight from Barry Kenny that it will be for a very short period. It is very clear that the trains are chock-a-block when they get closer to town and that this service which has proven to be so successful and well subscribed should remain, not in its entirety but in a slightly slimmed-down version and certainly should not be withdrawn. I am deeply concerned as are the people of Dublin North to hear that some wags in their ivory towers in the Department of Transport are talking about discontinuing this service. I wonder if any of them has ever actually taken the train or bus into town from the north side. If they did they would know exactly what we are talking about.

This brings me to the port tunnel and its safety. I wonder if that influenced them in some way. Deputy O'Dowd has informed me that there is a worrying report that we have not seen in full as yet.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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The NRA would not give it to us.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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There is a report we have not seen, indicating more lack of transparency. It condemns the safety of the tunnel in terms of the emergency procedures to be carried out. Last year I stood here and asked that nipper buses be put in place around north County Dublin to feed the train stations and reduce the car parking requirements. Even though I am glad to welcome the new car park in Lusk, the old one is to be closed.

In commending the motion to the House, I mention that the metro is essential to the further development of north County Dublin and can bring thousands of jobs in addition to the opportunity to develop universities etc. I support my colleague 100%. It is more transparency and accountability we need in our Government not less.

P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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This motion calls for real accountability and transparency in the spending of taxpayers' money in the transport sector and records that €19.25 billion has been spent over recent years. I am elected to represent Cork South-West and I can find no evidence of 1 cent of this money being spent in my constituency and the Minister will not take responsibility for answering these matters in this House which votes him this money to spend on the taxpayers' behalf for all the citizens of the country. Let me state that not one railway sleeper has been placed nor has a railway carriage travelled 1 cm in my constituency as a result of the spending of this €19.25 billion. In fact our west Cork railway system was taken from us almost 50 years ago by the then Fianna Fáil Government.

Not one square inch of asphalt has been laid by the National Roads Authority in my constituency. In fact given that it has spent all this money in developing roads between our cities, perhaps the Minister should consider renaming it the "intercity roads authority". It is no coincidence that investment in our rail network has been developed between the exact same cities often with the road and the rail line running beside each other serving the same towns and cities. The Government has abandoned large tracts of rural Ireland especially south west Cork. Louth, the wee county, is getting a much greater roads grant than Cork County Council which covers one eighth of the total area of the Republic. Where is the fairness in that?

The National Roads Authority has notions of working on the N71 Bandon to Inishannon road but according to its website this is subject to a "constraints study". This sounds to me like a new administrative term to describe constipation. In fact when I think about it, one way to describe the way the Government is running this economy is that it has changed from a Government with diarrhoea to a constipated Government with a bad smell.

I note that the Government amendment to this motion deletes all words after Dáil Éireann to substitute its own smug self-congratulatory words trying to convince us that nothing is wrong. Well, let me warn the Government that like the Berlin Wall when it falls, it is not in for a soft landing. If the Ministers opposite are not prepared to answer the questions of the elected representatives of the people in this House then it time to stop hiding behind bureaucratic walls and face the people. I commend the motion to the House.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I think I would have to disagree with the reference to Louth as I am sure you would, yourself.

This is a very important motion. The Minister has avoided the issue which is about accountability and transparency. It is about accounting for the €6.23 billion CIE has spent since 1997. It is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act, the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Committee of Public Accounts. During the week the Minister said he had grave concerns about an audit into procurement policies in certain divisions of Iarnród Éireann that cost more than €500,000. Last night I brought to his attention and tonight I bring to the attention of the Minister of State present that we are demanding a copy of an internal audit report from 2007 which stated that further significant breaches were found in areas which are outside the scope of the Baker Tilly report including significant non-compliance in the chief mechanical engineers department. Let us have the truth and the facts. Let us find out what is going on in CIE. Let us not have Ministers refusing to make it accountable here in the Dáil and accountable to parliamentary questions.

The Government is currently seeking €4.1 billion in cutbacks across the board. That figure is the same as the €4.1 billion cost overrun the Comptroller and Auditor General pointed out in National Roads Authority roads programme, which added 60% to the original costs of these projects. The National Roads Authority failed to calculate and manage the costs of these projects yet the Minister, Deputy Dempsey will not hold it accountable to parliamentary questions. What a Government it is. The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, introduced the electronic voting machines, which was a waste of €50 million. The Government decided to put broadband into places where it can never work. It will lie forever unused in many towns and villages around the country. That was another €80 million wasted. Of course €150 million of taxpayers' money was wasted on PPARS. What did the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, say about it? In October 2005 he said that that loss was "very, very small."

The Government is refusing to face the fact that many of its quangos are wasting vast amounts of taxpayers' money. Let me quote an independent authority, the Information Commissioner, Emily O'Reilly, who has stated on several occasions her concern regarding the lack of transparency within aspects of government. She said: "If FOI is about replacing a culture of secrecy with a culture of openness in the Irish public service, I have to say that this objective is being frustrated by the continued exclusion from FOI of several key public institutions." Why is CIE not subject to the Freedom of Information Act, the Comptroller and Auditor General or the Committee of Public Accounts? Why is the Minister protecting it?

Our motion represents a well thought out analysis of Government failures to instil transparency, accountability or scrutiny of activities into the companies and State agencies it has created. Mark my words; we will make the Government accountable. We will not allow it to continue in the same cavalier and unaccountable fashion. We will not allow it to refuse to give us copies of audit reports, refuse to meet with us or refuse to give us the telephone number of the safety officer at the Dublin Port tunnel, a person who is allegedly independent of the National Roads Authority and should be allowed to do his or her duties without interference from that body. Where is the transparency and accountability in respect of all these entities?

The job of Government is to hold State companies and agencies accountable for the delivery of efficient public services and value for money. This Government has failed miserably in that regard. That is why CIE must come under greater scrutiny and why the National Roads Authority must be accountable to the Dáil in respect of parliamentary questions. Fianna Fáil's misguided priorities and mismanagement of resources have deprived people of modern public services and efficient public transport and have brought this country to its knees. I commend the motion to the House.