Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)

The essence of this motion is transparency and accountability in agencies and arms of the State that have commonly become known as quangos and which are at arm's length from direct accountability to this House. The two bodies referred to in the motion have annual budgets of €20 billion, which was recently as much as the estimated Government deficit. The ghost of FÁS has not left the room either, as it had received €1 billion in Government funding. All the abuses that took place there informed some of the thinking behind the effort to open these Government agencies, quangos and authorities to better scrutiny.

The Government amendment to the motion notes the positive assessments of the value for money reviews which have been completed on the subvention to CIE and rail safety investment. It further notes the comprehensive arrangements in place as required by the establishing legislation and code of practice for the governance of State bodies. However, it took a report from Baker Tilly Ryan Glennon to uncover a series of wrongdoing and corruption, which cannot be tolerated.

The final point of the Government amendment acknowledges that both the NRA and CIE appear regularly before the relevant Oireachtas committees. In seven years, representatives of Dublin Bus have appeared five times, those from Bus Éireann have appeared three times, those from Irish Rail have appeared eight times and those from the NRA have come before a committee 14 times. Although that is not bad, it is still only twice a year over the seven years.

Subvention to Dublin Bus has multiplied by a factor of five in ten years and it has multiplied by a factor of six in Bus Éireann. We must consider value for money. I have a letter from the Minister for Transport regarding the rural transport programme, which is in serious jeopardy. Deputy Feighan mentioned that many people who have free travel passes are not in a position to avail of them, although the rural transport scheme has helped them do so and opened up a new world for them. We have had representations from such people before the transport committee giving a picture of how positive that has been for people. Even if we only consider CIE, it has €6.23 billion and a very small percentage of that figure, by making best use of those funds, could help to ensure that a very efficient rural transport system stays in place.

The commuter train from Dublin to Wexford through Arklow is a particular hobby horse of mine. It currently takes practically as long for a train leaving Amiens Street station to get to Arklow as it does for the Enterprise to get to Belfast. It is an overcrowded service, although it is meant to have received the old Sligo train when the new intercity rail fleet was rolled out. It is still a four-carriage train but it is overcrowded at its busiest time. We are trying to encourage people to avail of public transport.

Deputy Cuffe made a snide comment about Fine Gael's policy of closing down bus corridors around College Green. When we have a comprehensive and integrated transport system for the city, we could consider such issues in their totality. One cannot make an omelette without cracking an egg. We must be conscious of the repercussions for not doing things right and in the case of the bus corridors, local businesses were an important factor.

All we are trying to do is ensure that public money is spent properly and that we get value for money. The accountability of these bodies to this House must be enhanced. That is not too much to ask. The people have put us here to ensure their money is being spent correctly and without changing our attitude, there will be an air of denial with regard to these agencies. Deputy McGrath has alluded to the fact that these bodies were meant to solve all problems and make more efficient use of public funding but without having some accountability, the temptation in these organisations with such large budgets is to be sloppy, lazy and at worst, corrupt.

I will read from the Minister's letter. It states:

I am pleased to inform you of the Government's commitment to the continuation and expansion of the rural transport programme. The recently revised programme for Government states that the provision of a full-scale transport system in rural areas, using the network expertise of Bus Éireann, the physical infrastructure and personal resources of the school transport system and the financial resources currently spent on transport by the HSE and the Department of Education and Science will be explored.

The problem is that there is no mention of private involvement, which has been a core factor in the rural transport scheme. There have been small, independent operators in the rural areas making a living and employing people within that scheme in a very cost-efficient and effective way. There has been value for money way beyond what can be costed in pounds, shillings and pence.

Deputy Upton referred earlier to this being a Trojan horse for privatisation and had concerns about cherry-picking. There is a concern but it is possible for us to have independent health care providers in this country, such as BUPA, which became Quinn, and the others. The aspect of community rating has been built into these. When Telecom Éireann was being privatised, we should have insisted on the bid including a provision to roll out broadband nationally. The final figure for Eircom may not have been as attractive but the cost at the end of ten years would have been cheaper because the broadband network would already have been rolled out. It was a mistake to get rid of the network in the first place.

These issues can be overcome. Nobody in Fine Gael has said that privatisation is a panacea for inefficiencies but by introducing competition, it could play its part.

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