Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the rules in place in his Department governing the acceptance of hospitality by Ministers from State agencies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [44684/08]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the guidelines that exist in regard to the acceptance of hospitality by Ministers from State agencies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46104/08]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the guidelines for the acceptance of gifts by Ministers from State agencies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1779/09]

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

If a Minister were to receive a gift worth more than €650 from a State agency, it would be deemed to be a gift given by virtue of office and would have to be surrendered to the State. It would also have to be declared in the Minister's annual statement of registerable interests.

As regards hospitality, I assume that the Deputies are not referring to a situation where Ministers travel abroad in the course of, and for the performance of, their duties and their travel expenses and accommodation are paid for by the State agency on behalf of which they are travelling. For obvious reasons, restrictions in the code of conduct for officeholders published by the Standards in Public Office Commission, which I will refer to in a moment, do not apply to any offer or supply of property or a service made "in the course of and for the purpose of performance of duties of an officeholder, for example, hotel facilities or attendance at EU Council meetings, including a representational role by a spouse where this is in accordance with established practice".

As regards hospitality otherwise, the code of conduct for officeholders sets out, among other things, a framework for the acceptance of hospitality by officeholders. Briefly, the code provides that officeholders should not accept offers of hospitality where to do so would, or might appear to, place them under an obligation. The code also provides that officeholders should not accept offers to meet the costs of travel facilities and-or commercial accommodation in connection with official activities where such offers are made by private citizens or private enterprises, but that discretion may be used where an officeholder is the official guest of another Government or official body, or of a not-for-profit representative organisation or the like.

The Department of Finance's code of practice for the governance of State bodies provides a corporate governance best practice framework under which State agencies are required to conduct their business. Among other things, it provides that State agencies should avoid providing hospitality which might affect or appear to affect the ability of the donor or the recipient to make independent judgments on business transactions.

The code of practice recognises that it is not feasible to provide specifically for all situations which will arise. It reminds directors and employees of State agencies, therefore, that it is primarily their responsibility to ensure that all their activities, whether covered specifically or otherwise by the code, are governed by the ethical and other considerations implicit in it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When a Minister travels abroad on behalf of his or her Department, the position is well known, transparent and open to scrutiny. It appears from the investigations into FÁS that the same does not apply there. If a Minister accepts a trip or hospitality from a State agency, there does not seem to be the same level of awareness as if the Minister travels on behalf of his or her Department. For example, if the Minister for Foreign Affairs were to travel to some country at the invitation of a State agency as distinct from the Department of Foreign Affairs, that would not show up in the same way. Is the Taoiseach happy about that? What safeguards are being put in place to ensure that there is absolute transparency about such trips?

I accept the Taoiseach's bona fides in wanting to do things in the public interest here but I find it incredible that, because of the constraints arising from the Abbeylara case, the Committee of Public Accounts is unable to subpoena witnesses who have clear information about elements of this case. That is not in the public interest. We should be able either to write legislation within the context of the Abbeylara finding or have a referendum to allow the Oireachtas deal with these persons in semi-State agencies or whatever part of Government applies, when the need arises.

When I asked the Taoiseach last June about FÁS, he said that he held the then chief executive in the highest regard and would defend his integrity at all times. Is the Taoiseach happy that since that time structures have been put in place which allow for oversight of hospitality extended to Ministers within agencies such as FÁS for instance?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is the normal arrangement that when Ministers travel abroad in the course or performance of their duties, their travel expenses and accommodation are paid for by the State agency on behalf of which they are travelling. It is right that this should be the case because the Minister is conducting duties in performance of his or her office. I am sure that lessons are being learned from the various issues arising out of FÁS. Mr. Ed O'Sullivan, a former Secretary General at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the public service, is the interim chief executive officer and is au fait with the various guidelines in respect of these matters. He also has an overall capacity to help guide the agency in the transition period pending the appointment of a long-term head of the organisation.

It is my view that those issues which have arisen are lessons to be learned and actions to be taken in changing a culture that may have grown up over many years and aspects of those arrangements which we would find unsatisfactory. From my point of view, it is under a leadership now that will ensure that the culture of public service is manifest and above public reproach in terms of moderation that is displayed as people go about their business in an appropriate way and are not seen to be extravagant.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Does that mean, for instance, that if Fáilte Ireland brings the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to some function in France or Italy, that it will show up in its report and that of the Department? Will hospitality extended by an agency to a Minister be made public? I understand that there is no intention to cover it up but it is necessary that everybody be perfectly aware of it from the reports of the agency and of the Minister's Department. This should be absolutely above board and everybody should understand it. One does not want a situation to arise in which someone knows that a Minister was in America or wherever, but the trip is reported only in the accounts of the semi-State agency. I hope that the structures being put in place under the former Secretary General with responsibility for the public service will ensure that happens. If a Minister travels at the invitation of a semi-State body or agency to do business for the country, everybody should understand the nature of that travel and a record of it should be available for all to see. Everybody understands that is what it was, as it is there for all to see. Will those changed structures bring about that situation?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Standards in Public Office Commission, which sets out the code of conduct for officeholders, does not apply the question of filling forms for the supply of a property or a service, made during the course of such a supply for the purpose of the performance of the duties of an officeholder. The Standards in Public Office Commission has drawn up the guidelines, and we should abide by them. The office is doing this in compliance with the legislation. I do not have a problem with whatever guidelines we are asked to comply with. In this case, the office has indicated its view on the matter and we should deal with the issues that are specific to what the legislation was set up to address, rather than trying to deal with every issue related to the performance of people's duties on a daily basis.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

These questions arose from the controversy that developed following revelations about FÁS involving trips to Florida and the expenses incurred, about who travelled and who paid for what. It emerged that the statutory responsibility for approving the scheme of expenses rested with the Minister. Without going back over the detail about who travelled where, we need to first establish a few principles. It is not a good idea that a Minister, who has a statutory responsibility to approve a scheme of expenses, should himself be the beneficiary of an expenses regime in the State agency concerned. There needs to be some kind of wall developed between the Minister who approves the regime, and the agency to whom the regime applied. Where a Minister is invited on a mission of some kind by a State agency, the expenditure incurred by the Minister and his or her staff should be accounted for in the Department's own budget, and should be subject to Dáil questions and the normal parliamentary scrutiny and accountability that applies to that. If that were done, there would be a distinction between the expenditure of the State agency and the extent to which Ministers benefit. The important thing is to make that distinction between the accountability by the State agency and the Minister.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I do not know about that, but I will have it checked. The Department of Finance set out certain guidelines on this. I think the Deputy raised the matter with me before, when he asked that FÁS submit a scheme of expenses for approval by the Minister, on the basis that it is in compliance with the general guidelines set out by the Department of Finance. The question of whether the expenses are paid for out of the budget of the State agency or the Minister's own budget is a matter for consideration. I hear what the Deputy is saying about it. If a Minister is performing his or duties on behalf of a State agency, usually that agency deals with the travel and other arrangements that are provided for in that trip. It is not dealt with in different parts by the Department and the agency.

I will check whether the current arrangements in place will add to the issue to any great extent. We are dealing with public money, so accountability should be available from those who disburse it. If it is disbursed by a State agency, then that agency should answer for it, rather than create another arrangement where some payments are made by the Department and others by the agency. Why not have greater transparency from the State agency in the first place?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Yesterday I spoke about the use of the Government jet by the spouses of Ministers or Ministers of State. I made specific reference to the Minister for Health and Children, who was accompanied by her spouse in the incident mentioned by Deputy Gilmore. That trip was under the aegis of FÁS, and we know that there was much controversy in the fall out from the trip, including the personal services expenses paid by the platinum card of Mr. Greg Craig, the director of public affairs at FÁS. That created much controversy at the time and led to the resignation of the CEO, Mr. Rody Molloy. Arising out of what some believe is the inappropriate use of the Government jet, I asked the Taoiseach if any new guidelines were to be introduced by him to lay out his expected best practice approach to the use of the jet. He stated that he did not believe that this was necessary.

On the basis of all that was demonstrated by that Florida trip, have any new guidelines for Ministers and Ministers of State been drawn up in order to ensure that best practice applies to gifts, services and other expenditure by the State agencies? What guarantee have we that what was discovered about the FÁS trip has not been replicated in other situations across other Departments and State agencies? What level of oversight and scrutiny is currently in place? Following the exposure of the practices within FÁS that led to the resignation of its CEO, has the Taoiseach taken steps to insist on best practice across the board? Given what was exposed on the Florida trip, does the Taoiseach accept that there is a culture that needs to be addressed? Will he address it?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Committee of Public Accounts has been discussing this matter for some time with various members of staff from FÁS. The committee will be making recommendations for consideration, while the interim chief executive has experience that is being brought to bear on the lessons to be learned at the agency. The legislative basis upon which we operate, such as codes of conduct, the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995, the Standards in Public Office Act 2001 and so on, are all complied with by Ministers. It is a matter for State agencies to ensure that the arrangements made are in line with guidelines devised by themselves and approved by the Minister, or in line with the general Department of Finance guidelines that apply to these matters.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I would like to follow up on that. It may well be that the practices we are discussing are endemic in the private sector. There is more and more evidence of that. The difference is that we are talking specifically about the spending of public moneys by the public sector. The highest standards need to apply in such circumstances. Does the Taoiseach accept that rather than allowing State agencies to mimic their counterparts in the private sector, we should put in place the highest standards of best practice? Can he clearly indicate to the wider public, whose money is employed in the abuses to which I have referred, that these practices have been stamped out and will not be tolerated in the future?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The essence of accountability is that lessons are learned when breaches take place or difficulties arise. If people take on board lessons, change can take place. That is precisely what accountability is about. It is obvious that like other agencies, FÁS needs to learn lessons from the controversies that have been brought into the public domain. As I have said, the new head of the agency will ensure that the appropriate standard of public service applies to all its activities, including activities in this area. We can have every confidence in his capacity and willingness to do that.