Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Question 79: To ask the Minister for Finance if he plans to alter the decentralisation programme in any respect. [21904/08]

Brian O'Shea (Waterford, Labour)
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Question 84: To ask the Minister for Finance if he has plans for a review of the programme of decentralisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21961/08]

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Question 139: To ask the Minister for Finance the timetable for completion of decentralisation of Government Departments; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19793/08]

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 79, 84 and 139 together. The programme for government states that the Government will continue to move ahead with decentralisation and ensure that no public servant is obliged to accept decentralisation against his or her wishes and that promotion opportunities remain available.

I have no plans to review the programme and I am confident the public service will deliver this programme in a considered, sensible and sensitive manner. My colleague, the Minister for Transport, has advised the Government of some administrative changes to the programme in relation to functions under his aegis. These changes will not impact on the overall number of posts for any location.

The October report from the Decentralisation Implementation Group, DIG, which can be accessed at http://www.decentralisation.gov.ie, provides the OPW time frames for the expected completion of permanent accommodation at that time. The DIG is currently updating the position on property with the OPW and early indications are that there are now likely to be some shifts in the completion dates for permanent accommodation caused by property selection and acquisition issues, brief and design issues, tendering periods, planning issues and contractual arrangements.

Examination of the position in regard to progressing the relocation of the State Agencies is under way and I expect a report on this matter later in the summer. I understand there will also be an update on the time frames for the programme generally at that time.

I confirm that the Government has recently asked the implementation group of Secretaries General to deal with the governmental and cross-departmental issues arising from decentralisation of the headquarters of Departments and the need to provide facilities for Ministers, Ministers of State and officials while in Dublin on business. A sub-group of the implementation group has been established to progress these issues.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the ostrich the bird that sticks its head in the sand and ignores what is going on around it? What progress has there been with regard to State agencies after four years? It is virtually zero. Is it not the case that ICTU has indicated that if there is no review of decentralisation in the context of the OECD report its unions will not co-operate with the transfer of State agencies? The OECD found that the Government's failure to create any opportunity for mobility between agencies four years into the decentralisation programme is totally undermining it as a tool for delivery of effective public services. What is the Minister's reaction to this? When will the penny drop that the Government must change its attitude and begin to deliver real change for people? If it is to go ahead with decentralisation the programme must be practical and provide improvements unlike the way in which it is administered at present.

Is the Minister not aware, being Dublin-based, just how crazy some of the situations are for his own constituents? Will he answer the wake-up call and allow us to have a sensible debate on this and work out something that is feasible?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Bruton raised several issues. First, the progress report was published by my predecessor last October and at that stage the decentralisation implementation group was of the opinion that the programme is progressing satisfactorily. The time frames are, of their nature, indicative and subject to a number of variables. I made it clear in my answer that there has been some slippage regarding them. Planning for a substantial amount of decentralisation and its implementation are well under way.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I asked a supplementary question.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked whether it was the case that there has been no decentralisation. There has been.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Of State agencies.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I beg the Deputy's pardon. There have been considerable difficulties with regard to State agencies but these represent a very small proportion of the total number of posts to be decentralised. Negotiations with ICTU are ongoing and the Government is attempting to work through the issues in question with congress.

The Deputy mentioned criticism contained in the OECD report. That, again, has been referred to the implementation group of Secretaries General for consideration.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is responsible for this programme and so is his Government. He cannot outsource it to an implementation commission and then tell us that if that group is happy then so is he. The Minister's predecessor said there would be delivery of decentralisation within three years or, if not, Ministers would deserve to be sacked. They are not sacked, the programme has not been delivered and the Minister is sticking his head in the sand and pretending that everything is going swimmingly. It is not and it is time the Minister and his office woke up and made some changes.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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When the implementation group revert to me I will take decisions on the matter.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I wish to ask the Minister——

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is the problem. The Minister outsources programmes and then ignores his responsibilities.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The senior officers of the State work to Ministers as a collective body. Advice is sought from them on occasion and then one acts——

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister refuses to act.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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One acts on that advice if it is appropriate.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister refuses to take any responsibility in this House.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I remind the Minister that the word "quango" means a "quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation". From his answer, it appears that decentralisation will be decided upon by such a body. The implementation group is, effectively, a quango which will report back to the Minister.

The Labour Party has asked, on an all-party basis — I believe Fine Gael has agreed — that there would be a complete audit and review of the standing of the decentralisation programme. There is a large element of agreement among the parties in this House that decentralisation, properly managed, can be good for the economy. The shambles we have, however, is extremely costly. It was affordable when the Celtic Tiger era was at its peak and money could be blown hither and thither.

The Minister spoke about the necessity for people to make judicious assessments of spending. Completion of decentralisation is conservatively estimated to cost some billions of euro extra. Will the Minister review the programme on an all-party basis so that there can be value for money? That would be true decentralisation rather than the re-location proposed in the Minister's programme.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Burton raised a vast range of issues. When I receive the relevant reports I will examine them with care. However, decentralisation is Government policy. The implementation group is simply that, a group to implement the programme. There has been some slippage in meeting targets but a substantial amount of decentralisation has taken place.

The issue of decentralisation of powers mentioned by Deputy Burton is a much wider issue because it concerns local government. The question of decentralising as many public servants as possible in different locations of Ireland in accordance with the plan is under way and will be continued. I was surprised Deputy Burton suggested that the Government should abandon the programme.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I said that it should be reviewed.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The review seemed to be pointing——

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister should not put words in my mouth.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The review seemed to point towards an abandonment because it referred to the cost of constructing buildings in the current climate.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister told the House the whingers would have to cut back on the cost. He spoke about value for money and I reiterate his point. He said that costs must be examined. Is he now saying this is not necessary?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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As recommendations come back, I will examine them. The Government made a decision regarding decentralisation and I assure the House that decision stands——

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The cost does not matter then.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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——and the function of the implementation group is to implement it. Any cost arising from decentralisation must be appraised and will be judged on strict value for money terms, as every project related to it to date has been judged.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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This programme was introduced by one of the Minister's predecessors in 2003. It was nothing more than a budget gimmick that was rushed in, with a lack of planning. Various OECD reports show there has been no planning. The Minister is the person responsible.

Does he accept the decision was rushed and was a budget gimmick? Does he accept he is the Minister responsible? Does he accept that, to date, only 120 posts have been decentralised so far this year? Less than 20% of all posts overall have been decentralised. The programme was supposed to have been finalised by the end of 2006 and nearly two years later it is still unfinished. Will the Minister bring an all-party approach to bear so a proper structure can be put to the decentralisation programme?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the second question I accept I am the responsible Minister. Deputy O'Donnell expressed concern on the one hand that the decision was rushed and on the other that decentralisation was not happening fast enough.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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I said it was rushed.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy cannot have it both ways.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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It is now some four and a half years later.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The view of the implementation group is that it is proceeding satisfactorily.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Less than 20% of the plan has been implemented. Does the Minister seriously believe this is happening at an appropriate pace? The Minister's predecessor, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, said that heads should roll if decentralisation did not happen by the end of 2006. At present less than 20% of posts have been decentralised. There are 20 offices from a total of 56 yet to move to the proposed locations. Less than 50% of the staff which have decentralised have come from Dublin. What is the Minister going to do about this?

Seán Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Minister for Finance can include the rate of decentralisation in the response to Deputy Morgan's question.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The planning of decentralisation was——

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would not expect——

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should answer the question. What is he going to do about it?

Seán Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Arthur Morgan.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is rolling his eyes when he should be rolling his head.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would not expect the Minister for Finance to admit the decentralisation process is a mess and sitting high and dry. Does the new Minister for Finance accept that — none of us would see it as a shame or a disgrace if the Minister was to take a practical view — relocating An Bord Iascaigh Mhara to Clonakilty is simply a non-starter? Will the Minister accept there is a fresh opportunity to agree, ideally on an all-party basis, real decentralisation and the best way to roll it out?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not convinced of the merits of an all-party approach as I am not convinced such a process would secure agreement on the way to proceed.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister going to take responsibility and do something about this?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I will take responsibility. If there has been some delay in the progress of decentralisation——

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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It is not simply some delay, it is four and half years late.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The delay is due to the myriad of issues involving staffing, property acquisition, planning and so on which arise in an exercise of this character. It was wise to be ambitious——

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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What is the Minister going to do about it?

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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However, it is wiser to ensure decentralisation takes place in accordance with the wishes of staff and involving buildings constructed on the basis of value for money and proper contract procedures.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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That is a waffley answer.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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We are no longer dealing with priority questions.

Seán Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is correct and the reason anybody can take a shot.

Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I did not realise that until now.