Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 1: To ask the Taoiseach the appointments made by him since June 2002 to the State boards or other agencies within his aegis; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3554/08]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Question 2: To ask the Taoiseach the names, occupations and dates of appointment of those appointed to the boards of the State agencies and bodies under the aegis of his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3559/08]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Question 3: To ask the Taoiseach the procedures followed in his Department regarding his appointment of persons to State boards; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4981/08]

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Question 4: To ask the Taoiseach the appointments made to State boards or agencies operating under the aegis of his Department since June 2007 to date in 2008; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6172/08]

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

The information sought by the Deputies concerning appointments made by me to State boards and agencies under the aegis of my Department since June 2002 is set out in a schedule which I propose to circulate in the Official Report. The relevant bodies are the National Statistics Board, the Law Reform Commission, the National Economic and Social Development Office, the National Centre for Partnership and Performance, the National Economic and Social Council and the National Economic and Social Forum.

The members of State bodies under the aegis of my Department are appointed through well established nominating procedures, having regard both to the remit of the bodies and, consequently, the particular competencies and skills expected of their members. In many instances, the members are nominated through relevant nominating panels. NESC and NESF, for example, comprise representatives of the various pillars involved in social partnership, namely, employer bodies, trade unions, farming organisations and community and voluntary organisations.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have three questions for the Taoiseach arising from his reply. I understand that the Green Party, whose Members are not here at present, has written to organisations asking for nominees for green appointments to State boards. Obviously this means there is a carve-up within the Government as regards these appointments, with one party getting three, another one or whatever. Will the Taoiseach confirm whether that is the case because these absent Members were very vociferous and most vocal about all State appointments for a number of years when they sat on the benches behind us?

Does the Taoiseach agree that the time has perhaps come when the important chairmanship and chief executive positions should be overseen by the relevant Dáil committee? I am not suggesting that candidates should be overseen in the investigative sense but that the committee would have explained to it why the candidates believe they have a contribution to make and why their qualifications make them feel eligible for the position on offer.

The case of a county councillor from the Taoiseach's party was referred to the Garda following an investigation by the Standards in Public Office Commission. I do not know what will emerge from this, there may be a prosecution. In another case, an appointee to a State board is under investigation for an alleged assault, but I cannot predict the outcome. Does the Taoiseach believe that, where such instances occur, the persons involved should step aside until the investigation is complete? Does he believe this would be good for the individuals concerned and for the companies they represent?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked whether appointments to State boards are divided between Government parties. That is not the case.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Our crowd used to have that, with the few appointments we had.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Give them whatever they want.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Appointments to boards are made on the basis of knowledge, expertise and experience that individuals can bring to the work of the boards. In many cases, appointments are made on the basis of nomination by relevant groups, such as the social partners. I have listed all the groups. In so far as there is a breakdown — it is not between political parties — it is evident in respect of NESC, for example, which has been in existence for a long time. Five of its board members are nominated by agriculture and farming organisations, five by business and employer organisations, five by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and five by community and voluntary organisations. Five are nominated independently by the Government and Secretaries General of various Departments are included. There is a breakdown and it is the same with the NESF and the NCPP, although the process is slightly different. It is certainly not done on a political basis.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Definitely not.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They have been writing to organisations.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not know that. The position is not like it was at one time, when people were queuing up to be on State boards. One must work long and hard to try to get highly competent people to sit on State boards nowadays——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know that.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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——because of corporate governance and time commitments. The political identity of a large proportion of people appointed to State boards would not be known, and rightly so. The appointees are appointed on the basis of their expertise in society, and this is increasingly the case.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Maybe even friendship in the appointment.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is a bit of that too, but only on the basis that they are highly competent people.

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Friends.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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To be frank with the Deputy, in respect of all the main boards — most of them are smaller boards now — one would not survive on a board for too long without the necessary expertise and competency. I refer in particular to the commercial State-sponsored boards, which are the main boards. They have large budgets and staffs, audit committees and high governance levels, and it is difficult enough to recruit people who are prepared to offer their time and service to the State. Normally people who are very high ranking in their own businesses or companies, or who are of a certain age, are sought.

On Deputy Kenny's second question, some thought has been put into the issue of involving committees of the House in examining appointments to some boards. Some of my colleagues will try to bring forward proposals in this regard. I do not think it will be too long before the Deputy will see some of those proposals. We will leave it to the Ministers to explain how precisely it will work. Some of my colleagues wish to involve committees — I think this has been debated in the committees — so that rather than being from a party political position it will be from membership of committees. I think it is worth trying anyway and seeing what happens. A few of my ministerial colleagues will try to pilot this and bring it forward shortly. I will leave it to them to go into that in the future.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the Taoiseach stepping aside?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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A number of people on boards have raised this question with me over the years. I do not want to get into names but I have seen a number of them step aside. However, overwhelmingly, whether they did or did not, it would be entirely wrong because most of the insinuations made about them subsequently — usually not long afterwards — turn out to be wrong. There are a few cases in point at the moment where it would be an absolute travesty of justice if they stepped aside because they prove to have absolutely nothing in them. I do not really think we should get into that.

There is a problem in this country as against other countries. We have to change our culture. Stepping aside in this country means the person steps aside forever. It is about the only country where that happens. In every other country one steps aside for a few months and then steps back. That culture does not exist in this country — wrongly so in my view. It applies to politicians and it applies to people on boards and agencies. If somebody for some reason steps aside then he or she should not be gone out of a position forever, particularly people who have a lot to contribute especially to State boards. We have had a few significant people on State boards who did that over time and never came back again. I think that is wrong. Just because somebody takes off with some allegation — in this country most of the allegations are——

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thought the Taoiseach was going to propose a new concept for his own position, that he was not going to go away for good and would come back again in a few months.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I totally exclude myself. I am thinking more of boards and the like. In the seven or eight I know of — I am talking about ones in the past that are gone and finished — I think in all cases they were totally innocent of anything that was said about them. That would have happened across the party political system. Obviously for something that is very major and is very clear-cut, then there is a case. However, in most of these things there is not. I have seen things involving people in business and people involved in allegations that were made about people. They invariably tend to be wrong and are wrong. I am not big into that, in fairness to the people involved.

More important, it is good that we are now seeing more representative bodies and groups in legislation. I repeat what I have said here a number of times on Question Time. In recent years the capacity of the Executive to get the right people to be on the main 20 boards and to give of the necessary time to corporate governance and other issues is increasingly difficult. I want to thank all those who give that time commitment. In the modern world it is not maybe as it was 25 years ago where people might have attended a board meeting once a month. Increasingly these boards have sub-committees, audit committees or corporate governance committees where people are asked to give a large number of hours. Deputy Kenny knows as well as I do that many of these people never even draw down what are the relatively small amounts that are given to them — they do not bother with them. So it has nothing to do with that. Sometimes they do it for the prestige although I am not sure there is much prestige anymore. I think people just do it in the interests of public service and we appreciate that.

The idea of involving the committees is something that some of my colleagues are going to have a go at.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome that. It would be in the interest of the incumbents or the proposed appointees to be able to appear before an Oireachtas committee and give their view as to why they feel they would have a contribution to make. They can give an assessment of why they feel qualified to do the job. I agree it is difficult to get good people to serve on State boards and members of the Government must trawl through lists of names on the same panels regularly. The involvement of Oireachtas committees in this would be beneficial as it would be a public process and would allow those taking up duties to explain how they feel they can make a contribution to the State.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to add that that should not rule out members of committees.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is the final occasion on which we may question the Taoiseach on his appointments to State boards. Did I hear a sigh of relief?

Has the Taoiseach ever seriously considered the arguments put forward by this Deputy and others in favour of a more open and transparent system of appointments to State boards? Would the Taoiseach consider advertising vacancies, inviting applications for consideration and holding interviews, with appointments to follow? This is fairly standard stuff; has the Taoiseach given it consideration? In response to my questions on this subject, the Taoiseach has previously acknowledged that there are people who have the required expertise, interest and willingness to serve but are not identified on the Richter scale that is currently being employed when choosing possible appointees. If the Taoiseach has not given this consideration, would he, on concluding his responsibilities in this area, commend to his successor that consideration be given to such a system across the board? I believe it would produce a fairer, more interested and responsive body of citizens than the current limited cadre of people who are considered.

The Taoiseach, Ministers and Ministers of State are subject to a code of conduct for office holders and Deputies and Senators are dealt with in ethics legislation. Is there a comparable arrangement relating to members of State boards? If not, does the Taoiseach feel consideration should be given to this matter as such appointees hold important, responsible positions?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have said this before but it may be worth repeating. The view on State boards, for which I have been responsible for the past 11 years, is mistaken. One could take any State board as an example. The National Statistics Board is chaired by Professor Brendan Walsh of University College Dublin and also includes Dr. Patricia O'Hara of the Western Development Commission, two officials from the Department of Finance, one official from the Department of the Taoiseach, two officials from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, two representatives of the farming pillar, two representatives of the business pillar and an ex officio member from the Central Statistics Office. One can examine practically all of the boards to see that their memberships are drawn from a huge pool including employers, trade unions and voluntary pillars. The organisations involved, including the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and farmers, nominate people from thousands of members, hundreds of thousands of members in the case of trade unions. With practically all of these boards, my right as Taoiseach to appoint board members is nil. In some cases, it is just to appoint an official. That is the way throughout all State boards. It has moved on.

That applies to most boards and is set out in legislation. I cannot recall nominating anyone to a board under my aegis. I am sure I must have somewhere in the past 11 years but the view that I am there with a list is not the case. These are all people nominated by a huge panel. On some of these boards there are members of all parties, including Deputy Ó Caoláin's. To be honest, if I were picking I probably would not choose them. However, that is not what happens. There are two nominating bodies so it could not be more open or expansive. To find some other system that would be more restrictive and not allow a huge broad trawl would work against what the Deputy is requesting. Deputy Ó Caoláin has a mistaken view of how the system operates.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach did not respond to my question on a code of conduct or ethics legislation applying to members of State boards.

The Taoiseach quipped as to what he would like to do with people associated with Sinn Féin getting on to these boards. Does the Taoiseach recall that he has acknowledged, both in the House and outside it, that he has appointed friends of his to such positions? I recall that distinctly. I am sure they were all deserved appointees but I do not believe we can erase what has been acknowledged in the past.

My view has nothing to do with the political association of any appointee but that there is transparency in the process. Will the Taoiseach accept the validity of the argument for a simpler system? There are many people, who others will never identify, who might bring good sense and a particular expertise to these positions. The only way to achieve this is to leave the process open for people to present their credentials.

Will the Taoiseach advise as to what steps could be taken to further ensure gender equality in appointments to State boards? I refer to the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, as an example. Should more be done to ensure a 40% achievement for either gender on these State boards, particularly with the NESC? What does the Taoiseach believe should be done in this respect? What steps has he taken to address the serious imbalance in representation along gender lines on State boards?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is an ongoing issue to try to improve the gender balance on State boards. I acknowledge that the broad social partnership process has improved on this in recent years. The percentage is far higher than it was. In the cases of NESC, the National and Economic Social Forum, NESF, the National Centre for Partnership and Performance, NCCP, which are all under my Department, the gender balance ratio is about 60:40. It is always a battle to get the nominating bodies to ensure they take gender into account. In some other boards, it has improved substantially and is still improving. However, it will never be perfect unless continual pressure is put on. In most nominating bodies, the ratio is higher.

On the issue of governance, there are strict corporate governance rules, codes, audit rules and various procedures with which people on boards must comply. They are even tighter in respect of commercial State bodies under company law legislation. Boards are all subject to strict scrutiny and must comply with statutory and non-statutory codes that have been changed many times in the past ten years, always making the requirements tighter.

Under my aegis competent, capable and efficient people who have done an excellent job have been appointed to boards, but the process in respect of all of the bodies under my aegis is enormously transparent and open, possibly with the exception of the Law Reform Commission, membership of which requires expertise. One cannot be a commissioner without the relevant years of experience in the legal profession. The other bodies are open to the nominating bodies and people are normally picked by the national officers of the organisations for participation on the boards. This provides an open field and a large number of people from which to pick and has continually strengthened people's participation on the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, and the other bodies involved. I do not have the number of people on the NESC, but the ratio on most of the bodies is 60:40, more or less, according to the last figures I saw. Gender is an ongoing issue, but it has generally improved a great deal across boards in the past five years.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach agree with the comments of his colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, that we need to clean up the process by which people are appointed to public office and to end the possibility of putting friends in high places? Does the Government plan to review the process or is this another instance of the Green Party not pursuing what it stated while in opposition?

The handbook states that the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste or other party leader in the Government should be informed separately in advance of such proposals, and that the proposals should be tabled in advance. That means there is prior knowledge. In this context, what would be wrong with publishing a short indication of the qualifications of those being appointed? In the United States of America, of which the Taoiseach is an admirer, significant appointments are the subject of public hearings by various committees of the Congress and Senate to ensure the persons appointed have the appropriate knowledge and expertise. If appropriate, questions on political affiliation may be asked. Has the Taoiseach considered reform?

Does the Taoiseach intend to make appointments to boards before his departure on 6 May or has he discussed the issue of appointments to State boards before 7 May when there will be a change of Taoiseach and of members of the Government? A significant appointment that is awaited is that of Comptroller and Auditor General, a position that is provided for in the Constitution. In our system, it is an important appointment. Will the Taoiseach indicate to the House whether the Cabinet has agreed an appointment or whether the Taoiseach has put forward a name, given that the Comptroller and Auditor General has indicated his intention to retire after many years of outstanding service to the State? Has this been agreed and will this appointment be published or decided on by the Government before the Taoiseach leaves office? The nomination is by the Government and must be approved by the Dáil, after which the President makes the appointment. This appointment is probably one of the most important of all in respect of the checks and balances and governance arrangements that operate in this State. While I am sure the 60 or 70 people on the various boards who were listed in the Taoiseach's reply are all good and worthy, the Comptroller and Auditor General has the power to ask very important people what they did with taxpayers' money and to account for it. What is the position in respect of the pending nomination and appointment, under the Constitution, of a new Comptroller and Auditor General?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Burton is correct to state it is an extremely important position, which is the reason it is set down in legislation and practice. I do not believe the appointment will be made for some time to come. While there is a process, I cannot recall exactly what it is. Ultimately, when the process takes place, the Minister for Finance will recommend the individual to the Government, followed by Government approval and appointment by the President. The process in respect of a replacement for Mr. Purcell has started and will take some time. As far as I am aware, he will not resign until July and this process will be under way. As for any other posts, the Government fills them as they arise. However, there are no particular posts of which I am aware that will arise in the period remaining to me.

The Deputy is correct to state that I am a supporter of many features of the American system. However, the United States has a population of 260 million people while Ireland has a population of 4 million people. Every position comes up for appointment there, including heads of departments, heads of committees and so on. This constitutes a completely different system to ours, in which public servants hold all such positions. Their ambassadors come up before committees and thankfully we do not operate such a system. While I like many aspects of the American system, no work would ever be done around here, were we to start doing this and I do not advocate this system for the Oireachtas. However, as I stated earlier, some of my colleagues have pilot schemes that involve committees looking at some of these issues and possibly the participation of some of the committee people in them. However, these are issues for another day and the Ministers will bring this forward.

I repeat what I have said many times before, namely, it is difficult enough in our system. In fairness to my new colleagues in the Green Party they have, in their appointments, been leaning strongly towards some whose political allegiances are to the Deputy's party. While I readily admit this is because they are good people, it demonstrates that political appointments are not made on a political basis. Throughout the system at present, people of all political persuasions, as well as those who do not declare them, serve in positions on State boards because they are good and competent. While obviously one finds people who are politically aligned in the system, they still are very good people and I believe the system works well.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should elaborate a little in respect of the Comptroller and Auditor General because this constitutes a good example of a very important appointment. Is this appointment, which carries highly significant remuneration, subject to advertising? Is canvassing under way or are headhunters seeking candidates to put their names forward for the job? It is an important appointment and constitutes one of the top ten offices in this country. However, what happens is shrouded in mystery. We do not even know if an appointment process is followed. I do not see what is wrong with a person who is nominated to a board indicating his or her experience and qualifications for the position. I cannot see why that information should not be made available at a minimum.

The Taoiseach's party has been in Government for 11 years and Ministers will inevitably know their party's members and supporters. However, if we are to encourage the best people to go forward, being a member of a political party should be neither a guarantee of appointment to a board nor a barrier to serving in a public capacity. There should be transparency in respect of qualifications and it should be indicated whether nominees are supporters or members of particular political parties. If this information was openly available, perhaps more people would be willing to put their names forward for political appointments.

John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is making a statement rather than asking a question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is astonishing that we do not know the process for appointing the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Approximately 15% of our population now comprises immigrants, yet I do not see any names which might belong to immigrants in the list supplied by the Taoiseach of appointments to boards under the remit of his Department. How can immigrants who have lived in Ireland for the past ten or 18 years be appointed to State boards? Should they join political parties or get involved in ICTU or the various employers' federations? How do people who want to serve the public partake in the appointment process? Should it not be more transparent, inviting and open to people of skill and substance?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope Deputy Burton will agree that the appointment of the current Comptroller and Auditor General was very good.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Absolutely.

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I made that appointment 14 years ago and he has been in his position since then. The same system will be followed when the new Comptroller and Auditor General is appointed. The process has already commenced, although it will not be completed for some time.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach send us a note on the process?

Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is actually the responsibility of the Department of Finance but I will ask that Department to send a note to the Deputy.

On the other issue, that would be unfair. I know of at least two State boards to which individuals have been appointed who everyone believes are aligned to the Deputy's party. They may not be, however, and I do not think it fair to ask them. They are very good people who have been appointed in recent weeks and months. Normally what happens in the social partnership process is that people who have attained a high standard and reputation on the national executive of employers organisations or in senior positions in congress and have demonstrated their competence and ability to administer are appointed to boards. They have proved they possess the skills. Other people who have expertise in various areas are also appointed.

If they were asked to appear before committees to answer for something when they are given €500 or €5,000 which they never claim, there is not a chance they would subject themselves to that. They would be out of their mind to do so. It is not the same as public office in the United States, where somebody takes a job where they will be paid several million dollars per year. That does not happen in this country. We do not have salaries like that for our most senior public servants. The system is entirely different. People come to prominence in different areas, whether through chambers of commerce, trade unions or the various sectors of the voluntary pillar. It is a small country and it is fairly clear where people of expertise and prominence come from. In that small pool, selection has increasingly been given over to other bodies, whether they be community, business, employer, central Government or local government bodies. It is a very transparent system, probably more transparent than most of the European systems. We should not change that, as I said in reply to Deputy Kenny. There are some pilot schemes that could be operated to allow committees to be more involved.