Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Question 63: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the action he is taking to reduce child poverty; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26262/07]

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Question 75: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs his views on the statement by The Combat Poverty Agency in its annual report that over one in ten children are living in consistent poverty, that Ireland's level of child poverty remains high by European standards and that Ireland has a relatively low level of service provision for families and children; the measures he plans to take to alleviate child poverty in view of same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26170/07]

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Question 101: To ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if he will carry out research on the mechanism for reducing child and family poverty, both in terms of income and service support, aimed at streamlining access to supports and minimising poverty traps in this area; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26184/07]

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 63, 75 and 101 together.

The reduction and eventual elimination of child poverty is a national priority and at the very core of the strategic process to combat poverty and social exclusion, as set out in Towards 2016, the NAPinclusion, and the social inclusion commitments in the NDP.

One of the 12 high level goals set out in the NAPinclusion focuses on achieving significant real increases in income supports for children. Three others address education initiatives. In addition, the detailed action targets in the plan cover services, such as health, education, income support, early childhood development and care, identified by The Combat Poverty Agency as highly important in tackling poverty in families and ensuring that children reach their true potential.

Children growing up in low income or jobless households are the most vulnerable to poverty. Many of these households are composed of large families with three or more children, and those headed by lone parents. The responsibilities involved in providing proper care for children can create obstacles for parents in taking up employment that provides a decent household income for their family. The NAPinclusion addresses this by providing for a case management approach that will encompass, in an integrated way, appropriate income support, child care services, and education and training to enable parents overcome these obstacles. National and international evidence shows that employment participation is, as I stated earlier, the main route out of poverty.

Research has a key role in supporting and facilitating policy development and the evaluation of policies, with particular reference to the outcomes being achieved. The Office for Social Inclusion commissioned the ESRI to produce a series of social portraits on the various life cycle groups. One such portrait, on children, published earlier this year, shows the current situation. This will form a basis to track progress of the ten year national action plan over the period of its implementation. Similar evidence of progress over this period will emerge from the seven year National Longitudinal Study of Children which commenced in May last. This outcomes based approach will also assist in identifying policy areas where more specific, tailored research is required. Furthermore, policy development will build on the excellent research already completed at national level and comparative research at international levels will enable us to learn from best practice in other countries.

Significant progress has been made in reducing child poverty and material deprivation. The latest EU-SILC survey shows, for example, that in the period 2003 to 2005 the proportion of children in consistent poverty has reduced from 12.2% to 10.2%. I am confident we can build on this over the next ten years and the specific targets set in the NAPinclusion can be achieved.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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By anybody's standards a 40% uptake in family income supplement is very disappointing. This measure is targeted towards low income families where one parent is in employment, yet a considerable number appear to be unaware of it. The Minister referred to Towards 2016. Is he aware a commitment was made in Sustaining Progress to examine the possibility of combining the family income supplement and the qualified child payment in order to make a payment to help children in low income families where the income would taper if one or both parents went into the workforce? There is a difficulty in treating poor children differently depending on whether their parents are poor because they are on welfare or due to low paid employment. There is a need to streamline the system. The fact the uptake in family income supplement is only 40% should spur on the Minister to address the matter. It appears no action has been taken on the commitment that was given and I wish to know why that is the case.

My second question relates to a matter we discussed earlier. Not alone are children affected by income poverty, but they are also affected by public service poverty. Children in poor areas have to wait over a year for a psychological assessment. Is the Minister aware that children in certain areas have to wait over a year for assessment by an occupational therapist?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I remind the Deputy that questions should not exceed one minute. Likewise, replies from the Minister to supplementary questions should not exceed one minute.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is being hard on me.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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This is what I mean by public service poverty. What is the Department doing to address the matter? I accept the problem does not relate to the Minister's area of responsibility alone but the social inclusion unit is based there and I wish to hear what level of co-ordination is involved.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Shortall is correct to some degree regarding the family income supplement and the other payments in that there is a myriad of payments. I think the question the Deputy is trying to ask is how one can amalgamate the payments to get the best from them. The problem is that when one puts the figures together, one hits the barrier to what people are entitled on a means tested basis. In order to encourage them to get back into the workforce, the question is how much a person can earn without losing rent support and all of the other incomes also.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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What I said is that 60% of people who are entitled to the family income supplement are not claiming it.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I am answering the Deputy's question. I agree——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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My question was about a narrower area.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy well knows, one cannot just pick one payment in isolation from all the different payments that exist.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I am asking the Minister about one payment.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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That has been the curse of it.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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The Minister gets lost in generalisations and waffle. I am asking a specific question.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Ten minutes ago Deputy Shortall was suggesting the opposite to me. The Deputy is correct that one cannot look at these payments in isolation from each other. One has to look at them as a cohort of payments and examine how one can get the maximum benefit from them. I do not argue with that point.

The Deputy is correct about access to public services. As much as any Deputy in the House, I hold clinics every week and there is a significant shortage of people, for instance, in occupational therapy. We have thousands of vacancies and we do not have persons qualified to take up the posts.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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That is not true.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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There is an embargo.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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That is a significant problem. There is no point——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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On a point of order, that is not true.

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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There is no point——

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have time to return to this question. The Minister should finish his reply to this supplementary question. I will then call Deputy Enright and Deputy Ó Caoláin and return to Deputy Shortall.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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On a point of information——

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As the Deputy is aware, there is no such thing as a point of information but she is going to proceed anyway.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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A total of 150 occupational therapists are waiting to be employed. They are on a panel but the embargo has prevented their employment.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy. Does the Minister wish to conclude his reply to the supplementary question?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would protect me from being interrupted. I have interrupted nobody.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I certainly will.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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It is important for the Minister to be accurate in his statements.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I wish to revert to the Minister on two points.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I would rather the Deputy asked a question.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is a question. Good policies are in place and I am not critical of them. What I want the Minister to accept is that there is a gap between what is decided as policy and what will happen on the ground. In light of that, can I return to the priority question and ask the Minister again whether there is a mechanism within the policy format that has been put forward to evaluate it as it is being implemented to ensure that by the time we reach the 2012 and 2016 deadlines we will have achieved what we set out to achieve, which did not happen in terms of the 2007 deadline, regardless of the data change?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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The simple answer is "Yes". I have set it out for the Deputy. Clear measurements are being put in place to ensure we can measure the outcomes.

The Deputy is correct — I have no argument with that point. There is a policy on one side but there is a question as to whether we are maximising the outcomes on the other. This is why, within NAPinclusion and the measurements being put in place and monitored by the Department and a number of the agencies, we will be able specifically to judge what outcomes we are achieving with the families with whom we are interacting. We should be able to learn from this whether the mix is correct or incorrect.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister agree it is time to review the benchmarking against which social welfare payments are set in order to ensure they are adequate to meet the cost of living needs — I emphasise "needs" — of those dependent on social welfare payments and their children? Did the Minister examine the report produced last year by the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice? If so, can he advise whether he has taken on board the recommendations contained therein regarding the minimum essential budget necessary for the various household formations that make up Irish society today?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Only two weeks ago I met all 32 of the different groups involved at a pre-budget forum. To be fair, all of the groups put forward a very reasoned and reasonable case. However, the cost of doing what they requested for this year alone would be €3 billion to €4 billion, which is not feasible or realistic. Therefore, we are trying to identify the key issues that can be funded and prioritised. In conjunction with the Government, I must make a choice as to where we maximise funding.

I favour targeting the less well off. I do not look to a general universal payment as I am not sure it would offer the best outcome and would cost a lot of money to implement. Moreover, the benefit for some families would be marginal because they do not need it in many cases. I tend to favour prioritising resources and directly targeting in a maximum way families who are less well off, particularly where children are clearly in danger of poverty.

These are choices that must be made as we go forward. Our social welfare system is universal, fair, open and well funded, and is indicative of why many people are in this country. It is accepted this country makes payments that are comparable to those made in many other countries.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Many representations have been made to Members with regard to the proposed changes to the funding of child care in disadvantaged areas. This is exactly the type of public service to which I refer, where low income earners and children living in poverty are being denied access to quality services. This is an issue that has arisen under the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Brendan Smith, but it will have a direct impact on many recipients of social welfare and those who have managed to get off social welfare and into the workforce but who now find there is a serious incentive for them to return to welfare.

A cross-departmental approach needs to be taken in this area. Is the Minister aware of this looming issue? Has it been discussed in the social inclusion unit in his Department? Have the alarms bells rung for the Minister yet? What specific action will the Department take, given its responsibility to deal with child poverty, but also with regard to encouraging people to move off welfare and into the workforce?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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What was the original question?

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I referred to the new payment arrangements for child care services in disadvantaged areas, which is looming as quite a significant issue. It has been forecast that it will act as a disincentive for people moving off welfare and into the workforce and encourage others back onto welfare. Is the Minister aware of the issue and what action does he propose to take?

Martin Cullen (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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We are aware of the issue. It is being considered at present because it highlights exactly the trap in which one can end up when instigating and trying to target new and better policies. One can end up creating a situation which was not foreseen but which appears on the horizon.

This is not unique and has happened before in other areas. The Department, with the Minister of State with responsibility for children, is examining this issue to ensure the policy, which is intended to have a beneficial effect, does not have negative consequences. The last thing we want is to encourage people to leave the workforce and re-enter the social welfare system. We want people to move in the opposite direction.