Dáil debates
Wednesday, 31 October 2007
Leaders' Questions
3:00 pm
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask the Taoiseach about his appointments. Before he appointed Deputy Dempsey as Minister for Transport, the Taoiseach was aware of his political history. He knew of the Minister's enthusiasm for electronic voting and how he made a shambles of it, costing €60 million. He knew of the Minister's intention to introduce third level fees until he discovered that the plain people of Ireland would not accept it. The Taoiseach was also aware that the Minister used the official resources of the Department of Education and Science to provide material for the local elections, for which he had to apologise. Despite this, the Taoiseach appointed him Minister for Transport on 14 June 2007. Unfortunately, the situation has gone from bad to worse since then.
The Minister tried to renege on a promise to introduce compulsory breath testing at the scene of a traffic accident, which came about following a Private Members' motion by Fine Gael. He presided over the loss of slots from Shannon to Belfast and, in a series of blunders, he said senior business figures in the region were exaggerating the impact. He failed to appoint directors who could have explained the matter to the board and when evidence emerged that his Department had been notified some weeks in advance of Aer Lingus making its decision, he appointed an official to inquire into her own actions.
However, I have never seen such a monumental fiasco perpetrated on the people of this country by any Minister as has been done last Thursday, despite the fact that we heard on numerous occasions that it was discussed in some detail by the Cabinet, on their salaries of €250,000 and above. The handling of the provisional licence situation is a complete and utter shambles and has forced the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, into the most public, humiliating U-turn in Irish political history. He has demeaned the Road Safety Authority and its staff and has given people the impression that legislation is not to be respected.
On Sunday, he told us his neck was on the line, that 120,000 holders of second provisional licences would be tested by next March and that everybody who wants a test by next June will have it on demand. If his neck is on the line and these two criteria are not met, is the Taoiseach prepared to dismiss the Minister, Deputy Dempsey?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure what question was asked other than the last one.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should answer the last one.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No. I am going to let him get on with the job. That is the important thing.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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He will not do what he likes. He will try to do his job to the best of his ability and he is doing that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Road Safety Authority's plan for 2007 to 2012 was approved by Cabinet and was launched by the Minister, other colleagues and me last week. The primary target of that strategy is to reduce road deaths to no greater than 60 fatalities per million population by the end of 2012. This would equate to an average of 21 road deaths per month or 252 per year. The average number of road deaths per month so far this year is 28. The request for tender to operate speed cameras was recently issued and six companies were shortlisted. More than 30,000 people have been tested under the mandatory alcohol testing. Overall, there is a downward trend. As has happened over the past ten years, in 1998 and 2003, we received the road safety report, and this one contains over 120 recommendations.
It was clear from the reaction of the public, and of Members of the House, that while people supported these measures, the fact that we did not allow enough time for them was considered unfair. Although the decision had the unanimous support of the RSA and others, quite correctly the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, having reflected on it for a short period, believed it was unfair for provisional driving licence holders and made his changes on that basis.
With regard to the Deputy's last question, it is challenging to try to deal with the backlog in a short period of time but at least people will be given an opportunity to regulate their position. I believe there will be a good result. Some people have driven with provisional licences for up to 20 years or so, although proportionally their number is not too high at between 20,000 and 30,000. Many others have not been taking the law seriously. Holders of first provisional licences are supposed to be accompanied by a licence holder but that rule has not been enforced. By next July, however, everybody must be on the right side of the law when the gardaí start to enforce this measure.
The backlog of approximately 130,00 should be dealt with by March and the remainder must be dealt with by the summer. To achieve this, the Minister will require additional resources, which he hopes to get from the Minister for Finance, to increase the number of driving tests in the private sector. If we can achieve that, the figures should be brought into line by summer. It will be demanding but I believe there will be a huge amount of compliance in the next number of months. People will study their DVDs and take their tests. More important, people who did not bother previously to sit the driving test will now have to do it.
It is a sensible solution rather than forcing people off the roads immediately, which would have happened had the order taken effect yesterday. The Road Safety Authority and others thought it was the right thing to do but one must take a pragmatic view and that is what the Minister has done.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Last weekend the Cabinet decided to give legal effect to this decision. However, a bright light seems to have shone on the members of the Cabinet over the weekend when they discovered the mayhem that would descend on the 120,000 holders of second provisional licences. The Taoiseach admitted today that it is not necessary for a Minister to measure up to performance targets, and that he will not dismiss the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, if he fails to reach the objectives for next March and next June. This is no different from the nursing home repayment scandal, electronic voting, PPARS, decentralisation, hospital waiting lists and a litany of other failures by Ministers. Nobody in the Government is prepared to stand up and admit that he or she was wrong and did not measure up. Of course, the Taoiseach has himself set the standards for the dismissal of a Minister, which will make it difficult for him to do it.
At what level did the Cabinet consult with the Garda about this matter? I understand from Garda spokesmen that there was no consultation with the Garda. Will the Taoiseach confirm which level of the Garda was informed by the Cabinet that this decision would be implemented this week? The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, said in his statement on Sunday that the gardaí will enforce the law and will use discretion. These are not interpreted as comments or requests but as orders. By implication, has the Minister not put the Garda in the impossible position of being seen to be a tool of Fianna Fáil in Government to cover up its incompetence? The Minister, on behalf of the Government, tells the Garda Síochána that it will enforce the legislation and will do so with discretion. The Minister has left the Garda in a position where it is seen, in some quarters, to be subservient to what the Government wants it to do instead of implementing the law.
Pragmatism came to light on Sunday, when the Government realised the consequences of an ill thought out, rushed decision and how it was to be implemented. No Member of the House wants incompetent or unqualified drivers behind the wheels of vehicles. However, the Government's rush to implement this measure in four days would have caused absolute mayhem for 120,000 drivers, given that between 40% and 60% fail the driving test. The position would have been very difficult.
Who in the Garda did the Cabinet consult? Second, does the Taoiseach not believe that the Government and a Fianna Fáil Minister have, by implication, used the Garda as a tool of Government to cover for the Government's incompetence?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, I do not agree with any of the Deputy's points. The Road Safety Authority brought forward the comprehensive proposals, as it has done for some time. The authority is doing excellent work. The range of measures and the resources we have allocated to them, including the traffic corps, have achieved an enormous advance from the previous position, where there was carnage on the roads.
As always with these questions, there is an attempt to switch the issue. Three or four years ago I was answering questions about the carnage on the roads and what we were doing about it. Now, 30,000 mandatory alcohol tests are carried out. We are working on proposals, which involve strict legal complexities, for dealing with what happens on the roadside. I explained this issue in the House two weeks ago. We have established a dedicated traffic corps comprising 800 personnel and the Road Safety Authority was vested last year. There is a ministerial road safety committee and penalty points have been introduced and extended. All these measures have helped to deal with the issue. The Cabinet discussed the more than 126 proposals at length, both in draft and detailed form. Obviously, we do not discuss every last detail of procedure but we discussed them at length.
With regard to the Garda, the Minister was quoting on Sunday directly from what Assistant Commissioner Rock said at the press conference. It was taken from his reply. Deputy Kenny appears to have got this wrong but, in fairness, he was not at the press conference. When a question was asked at the press conference, Assistant Commissioner Rock stated that if the order was coming into force on 30 October, the gardaí would take a pragmatic view of its implementation. The Minister did not say that, so no pressure is being applied.
The Garda was consulted. Assistant Commissioner Rock was involved in the press conference and in the presentation of the report. The Garda was involved. As to whether it was discussed throughout the force, that is a matter for the Garda, although I do not believe it was.
Deputy Kenny has made a bad call. He and others have said that this will affect 120,000 people. It was not affecting 120,000 people but 430,000. When considering the order, everybody referred to 120,000 but the entire number of provisional licence holders is 430,000, ranging from first to fifth provisional licences.
Paul KehoeBertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are clearing the backlog.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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That position could not be changed over two or three days. For that reason, more time had to be given.
4:00 pm
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Since the Government was elected for a third time three months ago, it has created three new Ministers of State, established new committees with chairs, vice chairs and convenors and introduced legislation to facilitate a former Minister in claiming his pension. There is nothing wrong with this as it is fair that people can claim their pensions but it would be nice if it was extended to former gardaí and old age pensioners and not confined to Ministers. The Government also proposes to give its members substantial pay increases that would make the Taoiseach the highest paid head of government in the world. By any standards this amounts to feathering one's own nest, particularly when there are cutbacks in the health service, child care and other areas of public services. Is the taxpayer getting value for money with regard to these increases?
I am delighted to see that the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has joined us as it gives me the opportunity to use him as an example. Last week, a report from his Department informed us that senior officials, including the Secretary General of the Department of Transport and the Secretary of the Government, knew about the Shannon issue. It appears everyone knew about this matter except the Minister with governmental responsibility for it. Even if we believe all of this, the kindest thing we can say about the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, is that he is not on top of his job.
Even by the normal standards of incompetence set by the Government, the Minister's performance since last Thursday takes the biscuit. On Thursday, he told people who must wait months for a driving licence that they have four days to get such a licence or get off the road.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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On Friday, the Minister pulled back somewhat and on Saturday he said the plan would proceed and that the Garda must be sensible in implementing it. Then on Sunday, when faced with the inevitable, he climbed down on the issue.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should get his facts right.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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For all of this, the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, will receive an extra €25,666 per annum. Why is the taxpayer being asked to give the Minister this pay increase of €500 per week and what will he do to earn it?
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He will deal with the matter of the electronic voting machines.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore has used his time to ask questions on Aer Lingus, the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector, pensions and transport but I am only allowed to answer one. Which one would the Ceann Comhairle like me to answer?
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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In which area does the Taoiseach represent value for money?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Taoiseach should answer the question I asked.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sure the Taoiseach is excellent at multiple choice.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Why is the Minister responsible for these screw ups receiving an extra €500 per week?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I presume the question then relates to the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector. The body was established almost 40 years ago and is an independent entity that has the primary function of advising the Government on these matters. Deputy Gilmore will be aware of this as in his trade union days relativity was used regarding people in the review body and senior trade union representatives. This most recent report covered the Civil Service, local authorities, health boards, non-commercial State bodies, An Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces, hospital consultants, members of the Judiciary and political office holders. Some 95% of the report related to the various grades while 5% related to political office holders, although one would not have thought so given the events of recent days.
The pay review that took place for senior positions is the first since 2000 and I note that the report suggests a reversion to a four year gap between reviews. I think this is correct because the longer one allows to pass between reviews, the greater increases that would be small for the majority of people can seem. I leave myself out of this because I accept that I have received a huge pay increase.
Ulick Burke (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach will be gone before the next review.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector is important in how it affects pensions.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I agree but I will say nothing. The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, has received a pay increase as have all Ministers.
Regarding Aer Lingus, the official report of what happened has been released. Pension legislation has been explained well elsewhere.
On last week's decision, we stated on Thursday that everything could be done, with the order signed, by Tuesday. However, we are fair people and it was clear that it would not be possible for the 430,000 people affected to comply.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the Taoiseach suggesting it was possible on Thursday but not on Friday?
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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When did the Taoiseach discover this?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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In holding the office of Taoiseach one sees a good deal of hypocrisy. One day people complain about the number of drivers that are on the road without complying with the law, while the next day they bemoan the fact that a law must be complied with. Perhaps some day the Opposition will make up its mind. The truth is the Opposition says "Yes" to whoever approaches it.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach is very good at such behaviour.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will say "Yes" to whoever asks him a question without defending anybody or making a decision.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is how Fianna Fáil operates.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The decision made by the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, means that in a matter of months there probably will be a greater degree of compliance with traffic regulations in the country than ever before.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Taoiseach sit the tests with them?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Several hundred thousand tests will be conducted in the given period.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Why did the Taoiseach postpone the recommendations of the Road Safety Authority? It did not suit him to consider it.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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People need more time to take these tests and that is fair enough, although, in some cases, they are already breaking the law of the land. However, we must be fair and pragmatic.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Did the Taoiseach read the recommendations of the Road Safety Authority?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach must be allowed to speak without interruption.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The recommendations for a draft plan last May were ignored for political reasons and thus people have been sentenced to death over the next two years.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy got his answer on LMFM yesterday.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has belittled the Road Safety Authority. Did the Minister read the recommendations last May or were they withheld from him, like the information on the Shannon issue?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The only person who may raise a point of order on Leaders' Questions is the leader concerned. Deputy McEntee cannot interrupt during Leaders' Questions.
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Everyone else is doing it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach to conclude.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope there is strong support for the Road Safety Authority in the House. This is the authority's third report and I hope everyone supports the efforts we are making to get greater compliance and to keep the number of road deaths and injuries down. It takes time to create a different culture where people no longer believe they can ignore these things. The Minister is right to give the matter more time.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Stop that. Is the Opposition serious about people being killed or not?
Shane McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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——but the Taoiseach is not.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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No issue has been raised as often during Question Time and Adjournment Debates as the length of time young drivers must wait to sit the driving test and the number of people consequently driving with only a provisional licence. For the Taoiseach to suggest it was an accident or that, somehow, 430,000 could be overlooked is proof the Government is seriously out of touch.
To return to the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, if he was a driver rather than a Minister, he would be on his third provisional licence at this stage, with no prospect of passing the test.
Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gilmore is still on a learner permit.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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How bad must matters get before the "R" word dawns on somebody on the Government side of the House? Across the water, five or six Cabinet Ministers have had to resign. A Home Secretary resigned because the wrong figures were released about prisoner releases and an Education Secretary had to resign because the exams authority got something wrong, but no matter what a Minister of this country does or how badly he screws up there is never any question of a resignation or an apology to the House. Instead, he is rewarded with an increase in pay.
Bernard DurkanEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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How bad must a Minister be or how many mistakes must he make before continuance in office becomes an issue for the Taoiseach? I do not wish to rehearse the Minister for Transport's legacy in terms of the areas where he has got into trouble, or indeed those of the Minister, Deputy Cullen, sitting beside him, or the costs involved to the taxpayer——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should ask a question as we are over time.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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How bad must matters get before the Taoiseach will decide he should part company with a Minister, rather than give him or her an increase in pay?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The point I made about the figures is that 122,000 people are on the waiting lists, while 430,000 people have provisional licences.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Did the Government not know all that on Thursday?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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If people had to comply with the law by Tuesday, this would have created horrendous difficulties. However, we must face up to the difficulties. We cannot go ahead ——
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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How did it all change on Thursday?
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach must be allowed to respond without interruption. I must make it clear that the only people entitled to make a contribution during Leaders' Questions are the leaders of the parties. This is straightforward under Standing Orders.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The waiting list can be cleared within a few months, but if the Garda starts to enforce the regulations, which it has not been doing and which has never been done, that would affect 430,000 people. That was not the focus for the Road Safety Authority, which worked on this matter every day, the Garda or ourselves. The people who work on this matter every day did not focus on that issue. It is easy in hindsight to say there are 420,000 waiting for tests. On the question as put by Deputy Gilmore, it is not the fact that we have discussed this issue here for years.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will tell the Deputy. Some 40,000 people have had more than five provisional licences. They have no interest——
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach, without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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These people never bothered to apply to do their test.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Some have been on provisional licences for ten years.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some have been driving on provisional licences for 20 years, some have had 17 or 18 provisional licences. The point is they have never bothered to apply for a test. Only one in five people bother to apply. That is the reason for the difference as between 120,000 and 430,000. Everybody driving on our roads will have to comply with the new regulations. The position is that the number in question was not focused in by the Road Safety Authority, the Garda, the Department or the Government. The fact that Deputies Gilmore and Kenny mentioned that figure rather than the overall figure shows they did not focus on it either.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Now it is our fault.