Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 4 December 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Financial Statements 2023: Inland Fisheries Ireland
Special Report No. 118 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Governance, internal control and value for money issues in Inland Fisheries Ireland
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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This morning we will engage with Inland Fisheries Ireland to examine the 2023 financial statements. The committee will also examine the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Special Report 118 – Governance Internal Control and Value for Money Issues in Inland Fisheries Ireland. We are joined by the following officials from Inland Fisheries Ireland: Mr. Barry Fox, deputy chief executive officer, Ms Suzanne Campion, head of finance and corporate services, Dr. Fiona Kelly, head of research, policy and risk, Mr. Milton Matthews, acting head of operations, and Mr. Michael Cusack, field services manager. We are also joined by an official from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment who is here in a representative capacity, namely, Ms Martina Hennessy, assistant secretary general. Finally, we are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General: the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee and Ms Ruth Foley, deputy director of audit. They are all very welcome.
I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that you should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
As members are aware, the remit of Inland Fisheries Ireland is to protect, manage and conserve Ireland’s inland fisheries and sea-angling resources. IFI’s income in 2023 amounted to €40.5 million. More than 90% of its income comes from State funding sources. Most of the remaining income is derived from fee income for permits, licences and fishery rates.
IFI’s expenditure in 2023 amounted to €41.2 million. More than 70% of the expenditure, or €29.3 million, was in respect of remuneration and other pay and pension costs. Some €9.9 million was spent on field operations, with €2.3 million spent on administration expenses.
I certified the 2023 financial statements on 13 December 2024 and issued a clear audit opinion. However, I drew attention in my audit report to issues of concern regarding IFI’s governance arrangements and the adequacy of its internal control systems that are dealt with in more detail in the special report that is before the committee this morning. I had drawn attention to some of the same concerns in my reports on the 2022 and 2021 audits, and because the matters remained ongoing, I felt a more in-depth examination was required.
The board of a State agency is the principal decision-making body in relation to the organisation’s strategic direction and oversees the performance of its operations. It is also responsible for ensuring the safeguarding of the assets it controls and compliance with governance norms. The chairperson of the IFI board resigned in April 2022. A new chairperson was appointed in May 2022 but resigned in January 2023. A further four resignations from the board occurred during 2022 and in January 2023. As a result, the board effectively became unable to reach the required quorum to meet and to make decisions, including approval of the annual financial statements.
In February 2023, the remaining board members were stood down by the then Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications on a no-fault basis. Using statutory provisions in the relevant legislation, the Minister appointed two persons on a temporary basis to perform the functions of IFI. As well as day-to-day oversight, they commissioned an independent review of IFI’s governance, which resulted in a December 2023 report setting out recommendations for change. A new board commenced operations in January 2024.
The main reason IFI exists is to secure the protection and conservation of fisheries resources, including both fish stocks and their habitats. IFI’s capacity to achieve this through active patrolling on Irish waters diminished in 2019, when the number of staff qualified to lead such patrols dropped sharply due to a decrease in the number of staff trained to the required standard along with the retirement and departure of trained staff from the organisation. IFI’s capacity to undertake patrolling was gradually restored through training of additional personnel, and the fleet of 12 patrol boats was replaced at a cost of €3.5 million. By 2023, IFI was achieving around 81% of its target of 25 patrols per boat per year.
IFI has the power to initiate prosecutions for serious fisheries and environmental offences, including fish kills and water pollution. However, in March 2023, it discovered that formal delegated authority from the board allowing its officers to initiate these prosecutions was not in place. Because of that gap, IFI had to withdraw many live prosecution cases. This had a significant impact on IFI’s ability to carry out its protection role and created a risk of financial loss and additional legal costs for the organisation. Prosecutions recommenced in June 2023 when formal delegated sanction was put in place.
Between 2019 and 2021, IFI received around €1.2 million from the Dormant Accounts Fund.
There were weaknesses in how IFI managed this funding. Internal audit reviews commissioned by the board showed that, in some cases, it was not clear that the spending fully matched the purpose of the funding. As a result, IFI repaid over €28,000 to its parent Department in 2022.
IFI owns a substantial period property called Aasleagh Lodge adjacent to the Erriff river in County Mayo. The grounds of the lodge encompass two self-catering cottages and an IFI operations base, which limits the income potential of the property. Over several years, there were significant deficiencies in control over the letting and management of the lodge and cottages. This exposed IFI to unnecessary financial risk.
Between November 2021 and February 2023, the then CEO's work base was changed from IFI's headquarters at Citywest to the regional offices in Ballyshannon, County Donegal. There is no evidence that a proper analysis was carried out or a formal business case prepared to support this change, or that the change was properly authorised. During that period, the CEO received over €7,900 in subsistence expenses due to the change, of which €1,000 was repaid to IFI after the change was reversed.
The work carried out by IFI staff is mostly field based, with a range of vehicles needed to perform its statutory functions. Notwithstanding this, the vehicle fleet operated by IFI appears to have been excessive in scale when compared to the number of staff. There were also benefit-in-kind tax issues in respect of vehicles used by IFI staff, resulting in settlements with the Revenue Commissioners totalling around €296,000.
In addition, an administrative error in July 2021 led to some of IFI's vehicle fleet being uninsured for a period. This only came to light when one of the vehicles was involved in a road traffic accident. The direct costs incurred by IFI in relation to the road traffic accident totalled almost €230,000 by the end of 2023.
Taken together, the many issues raised in the report indicate the development of an inadequate and inappropriate system of control, which seriously undermines public confidence in IFI's ability to carry out the important functions with which it is charged. The findings from the audit by my office of the draft 2024 financial statements are currently being reviewed. I expect to complete the audit by the end of the year.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. I now ask the deputy chief executive officer to give the opening statement on behalf of Inland Fisheries Ireland. As set out in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes to make his opening statement.
Mr. Barry Fox:
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis an gcoiste ar an ócáid seo and for the opportunity to appear before the committee today to discuss the Comptroller and Auditor General's Special Report 118 and the financial statements for 2023.
We are pleased to discuss our work, the challenges we have faced, and the new opportunities ahead, as Inland Fisheries Ireland looks to the future with confidence. I am the deputy chief executive of IFI, serving in this role on an interim basis. The recruitment process for a chief executive is currently under way through the Public Appointments Service. I am joined by supporting witnesses, Ms Suzanne Campion, head of finance and corporate services; Dr. Milton Matthews, acting head of operations; Dr. Fiona Kelly, head of research, policy and risk; and Mr. Michael Cusack, field services manager.
I acknowledge at the outset the findings of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, which highlighted a number of governance and control weaknesses within the organisation, the regularity of certain transactions and value-for-money issues. Inland Fisheries Ireland fully accepts the findings of this report, and we recognise the importance of addressing these shortcomings comprehensively and transparently.
In February 2023, under section 20(5) of the Inland Fisheries Act 2010, the then Minister, Eamon Ryan, removed the IFI board on a no-fault basis, following a series of resignations that had left it unable to function effectively. The Minister subsequently appointed Mr. Seamus Neely and Mr. Tom Barry under section 18 of the Act to perform the functions of IFI during the period in which a new board was being appointed. Their professionalism, independence and applied expertise significantly strengthened accountability, accelerated the pace of reform and stabilised organisational governance. During their term, a comprehensive independent governance review was commissioned. A key development in progressing governance reform was the appointment of a new board of Inland Fisheries Ireland in January 2024. This board brings substantial expertise in governance, environmental management, finance and public administration. Its oversight, strategic direction and commitment to the highest standards of public sector governance, along with extremely hard-working and dedicated staff, have been central to driving organisational renewal.
The governance review, completed by Ernst & Young, provided a detailed examination of governance structures, organisational culture and operational processes, and presented a clear blueprint for reform. The executive has acted swiftly and decisively on its recommendations, with robust oversight provided by the new board.
IFI has published its governance assurance framework, which demonstrates the strengthened internal controls, clarified governance roles and responsibilities, improved risk management and compliance frameworks, and enhanced oversight across the organisation. Updated procedures, revised governance documentation and clearer reporting lines are now firmly in place, supporting robust, transparent and accountable decision-making.
Inland Fisheries Ireland safeguards one of the State's most valuable natural assets: the network of rivers, streams, lakes, and coastal ecosystems that support fish populations, biodiversity and healthy aquatic communities. As the national agency with statutory responsibility for the protection, development and management of these resources, we operate within a comprehensive legislative framework.
The organisation continues to deliver a high-quality public service in fulfilling its statutory mandate. IFI has statutory responsibility for Ireland's 74,000 km of rivers and streams and 128,000 ha of lakes and exercises patrol jurisdiction along the coastline out to 12 nautical miles from the baselines. The scale and geographical breadth of our remit is extensive. IFI's dedicated staff work professionally and diligently to protect, conserve and manage Ireland's freshwater species and their habitats in an increasingly unpredictable and rapidly changing environmental landscape.
It is important to note that while IFI is a high-performing organisation, our ability to fully realise our ambitions has been constrained for many years by limited financial and human resources and updating of our statutory powers.
IFI is pleased to lead the National Barrier Mitigation Programme, NBMP, 2024–2027, funded by the Department of housing and the Department of the environment. A total of €100 million has been approved to remove or mitigate river barriers affecting species such as Atlantic salmon, European eel and lamprey. The programme aims to address 257 barriers over its lifetime, with planning and environmental consents central to delivery. The NBMP is addressing a key commitment in the Government's Water Action Plan 2024 and aligns with the EU water framework directive, the EU biodiversity strategy for 2030 and the emerging nature restoration regulation. IFI will invest €14 million in the first 103 projects nationwide, with agreements now being issued.
The withdrawal of prosecution cases underscored the need for consistent adherence to governance, oversight and stronger internal checks. It also highlighted the requirement for clearly defined authority structures, properly recorded decision-making and stronger governance documentation. The organisation took decisive action to resolve this issue. I can provide assurance to the committee that these processes are now in place.
In relation to Aasleagh Lodge and cottages, IFI has consistently sought to identify and pursue solutions that maximise the return to the taxpayer from this unique State asset. We are satisfied that the board was kept fully informed of all expenditure associated with the complex. A board resolution has now been agreed to proceed with the sale of Aasleagh cottages. In line with this decision and following the required work to split the folio and provide separate services for the cottages, we expect the disposal process to be completed by the end of 2026. Concurrently, IFI intends to upgrade and repurpose Aasleagh Lodge to deliver enhanced public value. The proposed development includes the establishment of an international research hub for the national salmonid index catchment on the River Erriff, the provision of office accommodation and the creation of a training and education centre for IFI.
Aquatic environments are increasingly threatened by pollution, nutrient enrichment, biodiversity loss, climate change and invasive species. The spread of invasives remains a serious national concern, and without stronger legislation, adequate resources and co-ordinated enforcement, the long-term ecological and economic impacts will be significant. IFI has first-hand experience of this challenge through its long-term management of Lagarosiphon major on Lough Corrib. At the same time, IFI is actively restoring freshwater habitats by reconnecting rivers, improving spawning streams, removing migration barriers and restoring natural channel processes to build ecosystem resilience. Yet, despite these efforts, key native species continue to decline. The European eel is now critically endangered and wild salmon returns have fallen from 1.76 million in 1975 to a provisional 153,460 in 2025, a catastrophic collapse within one generation. These trends highlight the urgency of IFI's restoration and protection work and the need for strengthened cross-government action.
Looking ahead, our new statement of strategy for the period 2026 to 2030 sets a clear direction for the organisation and reflects our development into an agile, outward-looking and evidence-based fisheries environmental agency. We are operating in a period of significant ecological pressure. Climate impacts are accelerating, water quality is declining in many catchments and native fish species are increasingly vulnerable. These challenges reinforce the need for us to adapt quickly, strengthen our environmental leadership role and adopt more integrated and technology-enabled approaches across our remit.
Our team will address the committee’s questions, and we will share with members any written information they request thereafter. I thank the Chair and the committee for their attention this morning.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Fox for his opening statement. We will suspend the meeting for ten to 15 minutes at 12 noon and resume shortly thereafter. I will now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Boland. The Deputy has 15 minutes. All other members will have ten minutes. If time permits, I will allow members back in for a second round.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are all very welcome, although to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts for a third consecutive year in a row following issues highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General is not something to be proud of. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the financial statements reveal serious governance issues, internal control weaknesses and poor value-for-money practices. How many employees does IFI have?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When did Mr. Fox join IFI?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Some 90% of IFI's income comes from the State. It received €33.43 million from the State in 2023. That is a huge sum. Does the taxpayer get value for that money? Who evaluates the work of IFI? Mr. Fox said the organisation is high performing. How does it demonstrate that this is the case?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In comparison with whom is IFI punching above its weight against?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In Ireland or internationally.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Fox might give me an example of one of these bodies.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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With whom is Mr. Fox comparing IFI when he says it punches well above its weight?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Has Mr. Fox documented this comparison?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is his opinion. In terms of the prosecutions, we have 40 environmental prosecutions and 50 to 70 other prosecutions.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What about last year?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When Mr. Fox say concluded, what does that mean?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Were they successful?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There were 99 in total. Were all of those successful?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Did the IFI win all 99 cases?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That was in 2024. In 2023, obviously, we had the issue regarding the delegated authority. Mr. Fox might talk to me about that. Under whose remit or under which part of the organisation should the processes of delegated authority have fallen and how were processes not put in place to ensure that prosecuting officials had valid warrants?
Mr. Barry Fox:
The prosecution officials had valid warrants. The organisation at the executive level did not have the delegated authority to approve and bring forward the prosecution. The way the functions of IFI work, they are all with the board. They have to be formally delegated to the executive.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Therefore, the warrants were not valid because the delegating authority was not there.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many cases had to be withdrawn and what was the total cost to the taxpayer?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I have a figure of €240,000.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There is more to come, however.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Have any of the defendants taken cases against IFI for wrongful prosecution?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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None of the people IFI has prosecuted has made a claim against it.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I do not mean in terms of appealing the cases; I mean where IFI has to withdraw cases.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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To what do the three cases that are pending relate?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There has been no counterclaim against IFI.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Fisheries protection activity is one of IFI's core activities.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many patrols per year would IFI undertake?
Mr. Barry Fox:
The patrols per year would be quite significant. Total vehicle and foot patrols in 2024 would have been 49,036. If we want to break that down into hours, the types of patrols would be lake, river, sea, coastal and estuary patrols, sea bass patrols, bluefin tuna patrols and foot patrols. We also carry out a number of inspections of commercial-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of patrols using the RIBs IFI bought, how many are carried out on average?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. How many RIBs?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many boats does IFI have?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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IFI has 12 RIBs and there were only 60 patrols.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Fox might give me the figures for 2023 and 2024.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Do we need 12 RIBs for that limited number of patrols?
Mr. Barry Fox:
These vessels were originally bought for salmon protection activity. Our area of responsibility has expanded into bluefin tuna and sea bass. We are also going to have new duties, potentially in 2026, which will extend our area of responsibility to the entire marine zone right around the coast. Therefore, I would say that we do need these boats. Salmon protection is still an issue in many areas around the coast, and these boats are an essential tool in deterring people from illegal activity.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many patrols per year is each of these boats involved in?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It seems very low. It is 20 per year per boat. I am a sailor. I would hope to get out at least 20 times during the summer, not on an annual basis.
Mr. Barry Fox:
That is when these boats are utilised. It is during the salmon window. When the Atlantic salmon reach our shores, these boats come into operation to protect the salmon while they are off the coast. One of the drawbacks we have with these boats is that it is like seeing a fire engine going down the road. The minute these boats are hitched up to a trailer and taken out onto the public highway, word gets around the coastal areas very quickly that we are on route. Therefore, we tend to deploy them as a deterrent and as a kind of rapid response in certain covert situations in which we use them. However, we have other tools we use. We are now using deploying jet skis-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What was the lowest level of use of one of these boats?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many people would be on that RIB?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What are they doing if they are not going out on the RIB? Going out 14 times in a year is very low. I would not call that "high-performing".
Mr. Barry Fox:
The team we are talking about is a very high-performing team. In fact, they probably generate more prosecutions than most of the districts in the country. They had a very low staff base at the time and to operate these RIBs safely and within our SOP, they require four staff available for a boat to go to sea.
Yes, it is a low number but there are reasons for that. They would have been deployed to other areas or used other technology or equipment to do that coastal work at the time.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Fox think the State is getting value for money?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes, I do. This is a vessel that is needed on the coast. It can operate out to 12 miles from baselines, which is potentially 30 miles offshore. There are significant safety risks at play there and these boats are state-of-the-art to allow our staff to have single-boat patrols off the coast.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the Dormant Accounts Fund, this is a bit more historical, but I find it staggering that €1.18 million was given to the IFI. Am I right in saying that 89% of it went on administrative costs?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Was it staff and administrative costs?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What was this money spent on? Give me a breakdown of the €1.18 million.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There were issues there with some of the grants awarded.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How did the IFI demonstrate good governance around that?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
We did not particularly demonstrate good governance but we tried to ensure that the programme was delivered. We departed from the procedures, which we accept we should not have done. However, we are happy that the equipment got to the right place and is still in use. It was checked only recently.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is not a lot - €20,000, €20,000 and €139,000.
As regards the code of conduct for employees December 2020, under whose remit or what pillar within the IFI was this drafted?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I should hope so.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Was this under Ms Campion in 2020?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What position was Ms Campion in during 2020?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When you look at this, you can have the most beautifully drafted codes you want, but as we have seen from issues with delegated authority, dormant accounts, money being misspent and there being over 400 vehicles but far fewer staff, there have been huge breaches of this code over time. Has there been any disciplinary action arising out of the various different breaches highlighted by the C and AG?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There is no consequence for breaching the IFI's own code.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What guarantee can Mr. Fox give the committee that there are going to be consequences? He is talking about widening the IFI's remit-----
Mr. Barry Fox:
I can give the committee an undertaking from the executive and the board that the oversight and controls are in place in the organisation now. That has been demonstrated through the delivery of the 11 recommendations of the EY governance review. The organisation has moved to a much stronger place in terms of governance, accountability and the processes required to deliver for the public purse and to provide value for money.
We are all aware of the issues that have occurred and are very conscious of them in doing our work. Several of the issues have been played out in the public arena, which has impacted the organisation.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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As well as confidence in the organisation.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Briefly, in the time I have left, I want to ask Mr. Fox about these unsociable hours payments. What are they and when can an employee claim them?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does prior approval have to be sought?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does anyone go over the amount they are supposed to work?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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As in, if I am supposed to work ten hours and I decide to work 20, can I still claim for the 20?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Would people go over their annual quota of hours?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is not controlled or signed off in advance.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I have worked overtime many times in my career and I have always sought permission from my managers or executives in advance of that. It seems to be uncontrolled.
Mr. Barry Fox:
I do not agree. These are fisheries enforcement officers. They are rostered in and out of work, but on occasion, when there is surveillance of illegal activity - known illegal activity - staff spend significant hours surveying those issues and trying to hold people to account. There are times where they will exceed the hours but their line managers on the ground will be aware of the hours they do. It is not just that the fisheries staff on the ground decide they will stay there for the next 20 hours. They will be in constant contact with their line managers, assistant inspectors and inspectors.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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A very tight control needs to be kept on that, to be honest with you. The organisation has demonstrated a serious lack of control over the years. To have something that does not need to be authorised, that someone can just work and claim, seems to be a repeat of this.
Mr. Barry Fox:
To clarify, we work seven days a week, 365 days of the year. Much of our work and engagement with our stakeholders are on weekends - Saturdays and Sundays - and those are also included in the unsocial hours allowance. It is not just night-time work. It is weekend and night-time work. There are no additional payments for those times.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What are the controls around this? I am not getting any real comfort on this.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That has not worked well so far.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I mean across the organisation.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in.
The importance, or potential importance, of the IFI was demonstrated by the recent Blackwater fish kill, where 32,000 fish were killed in a river already depleted in terms of fish stock, which was devastating. They were obviously killed by some form of pollution but no source of that pollution was found, which means that nothing has been done to prevent something like that happening again. Is that a fair summary of where we are at with the Blackwater?
Mr. Barry Fox:
What happened on the Blackwater was a significant environmental event, one of the biggest in the State's history. It has had a huge impact on local users, clubs and businesses. There is no question about it. It is something that the IFI is fully aware of and we are already engaging with the local stakeholder groups. We have plans in place to go down and do a full assessment of the catchment in 2026 to look at habitat restoration to produce more juvenile-----
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The witnesses did not find the source of what happened.
Mr. Barry Fox:
No, we did not. As I said at the environmental committee, we are successful in about 75% of our detections. The nature of water pollution is that it can be discharged into a water body days before anybody becomes aware of it. If it is not being discharged when our officers attend on site, under the legislation, we cannot bring forward a prosecution.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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When was the first sample taken from the river?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Sorry, what date was that?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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That was the first day the IFI was present. There were samples taken then.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Why does Mr. Fox think the source was not identified if he thinks it took place a week before-----
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay. When you go through the financial stuff, it is not just a can of worms but a barrel of worms of one thing after another, including a CEO relocating and getting huge expenses, one in five members of staff having a credit card, uninsured cars and more cars than there are staff. It is a litany things but from Mr. Fox's perspective, that is in the past and before his time. He is saying that a significant change has now taken place. He does not think there is anything similar currently taking place. Is there nothing he would like to disclose or to say IFI still has this significant issue it is looking at in regard to poor governance, poor culture, not having control of spending or things like that?
Mr. Barry Fox:
There is nothing on the spend that I am aware of that would appear in the public accounts. There is certainly one issue we are investigating that we have not closed out yet but I am not sure whether it merits discussion here. We have had a number of issues, as the Deputy is aware from the report. On the credit card issue, we have now reduced credit cards in the organisation down to five and we will be reviewing that again in the new year.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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When did the former CEO stop getting paid?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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When did they stop working?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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They got paid while not working for a year and three months or something.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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What sort of leave were they on? How is it the case that they were not working and they were still getting paid?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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None of the witnesses know on what basis the former CEO was getting paid while not working.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Was there a termination or severance payment made?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay. In regard to this being before the witnesses' time, was it before their time or were they not, in some sense, in the organisation when all this stuff was happening?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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There is a reference in the C and AG report to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, issuing an adjudication relating to a case in December 2023 involving the suspension and subsequent dismissal of an employee. The WRC found that unfair dismissal had occurred and awarded the complainant €38,500. Did Mr. Fox have any role in that case?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Mr. Fox turned down the appeal, presumably, if the complainant went to the WRC.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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In light of the WRC decision, which was pretty strong, does Mr. Fox think he made a mistake with regard to that appeal?
Mr. Barry Fox:
No, I do not think I did. The case heard before the WRC involved much more information than the act to dismiss and the appeal information that the organisation acted upon. The primary reason we took the decision was the use of equipment while on suspension and the allowance of a taxed vehicle to be used on the public highway by a juvenile. They were the reasons.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Mr. Fox is saying the complainant then brought more information to the WRC.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Therefore, Mr. Fox is saying that if he had been in possession of the information that was presented at the WRC he would have made a different decision on appeal stage?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay, so then it is not about the information.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay. Mr. Fox does not consider it problematic that IFI has an internal process which finds something and then the WRC fines and costs the public €38,500.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay.
In relation to one other issue, in June 2021 an IFI staff member requested funding for the completion of a two-year master of business administration, MBA. The MBA course was paid for them and cost us about €20,000. They were not in a management position but the business case for it was that in the future, they might be in a management position. Is that staff member still with IFI?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Are they playing a management role?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It seems like a peculiar situation whereby someone - I am casting no aspersions on this individual and I do not know who they are - is able to get an expensive course paid for that does not have any immediate relevance to their actual current job and there is nothing to stop them. It is good to hear they are still there and we are getting the benefit of that but they could have gone off somewhere else and we would have effectively paid for their training. Are there controls put in place to ensure something like that will not happen again?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes. At the time, you had to put forward a business case to make a case for the training. I can advise the committee that the training was reviewed by the head of HR and the learning and development manager at the time. I am advised that a verbal commitment was given. There is email evidence to say that the approval to pay a deposit happened in July but due to issues with authorisations on online payments between the app and the credit card of the particular person who was approving it, that did not happen until September. That is my information on the issue.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Consultancy costs of almost €2 million are disclosed. What is that? What sort of consultancy is being paid for?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
We use quite a lot of consultancy. I have a breakdown for 2023. Business improvement was €128,000, capital €97,000, consultant engineers €159,000, eel survey €26,000, environmental consultants €262,000, financial €105,000, HR and pensions €120,000 and legal €918,000, with legal shown separately in our accounts as well. Medical services were €22,800. Marketing, which is more like promotion and communications, was €76,000. Property and planning was €47,000 and veterinary services €24,000.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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To finish, €1 million on legal fees or close to it.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes. This is paying for prosecutions and stuff, effectively, like paying for a senior counsel or whoever.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay. I thank Ms Campion.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for joining us today. I want to move on to dormant accounts funding. Between 2019 and 2021, IFI received over €1.1 million, which led to an internal review in 2022. This saw IFI having to pay back €28,000 to the Dormant Accounts Fund. Have there been any additional reviews since 2021 and has IFI had to pay any funding back since then?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Has IFI done any additional reviews since 2021 on the spending of this funding?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could she please be very brief?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
We did not have to pay back any further funds. We did a further audit, on one grant, of the angling for all fund, which was for €4,000. It found that there were weaknesses in our evaluation, but no moneys were paid back. We since received €500,000 in 2024 from the Dormant Accounts Fund for structures, stands and angling access.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could Ms Campion elaborate on the weaknesses that were identified?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
In angling for all, it was one particular club, which was a new club when it applied, and we awarded it money but afterwards we realised that it did not have a bank account so it was facilitated in drawing down the award through the national governing body. As a result, the national governing body did the procurement, purchased the goods, drew down the money and then transferred the goods to the club in question.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The internal audit in 2022 highlighted that in some cases the expenditure was not really going on what the funding was designed for. In Ms Campion's opinion, was any angling organisation negatively affected by the management of these funds?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
I do not think so. What we were trying to do was get the money to the grassroots so that people could deliver different programmes themselves. The money that was returned was €28,800 in total. It related to a stand we had at the ploughing match, in the Government of Ireland stand, which was for general access to make it open to everybody to be able to take up angling.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Campion feel that any clubs lost out through the way IFI managed the fund?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to go back to 2018. There was an announcement by the then Minister of State, Deputy Canney, that €70,000 from the Dormant Accounts Fund would be awarded to the Angling Council of Ireland, which was never disbursed to it. Does Ms Campion know why?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, please. Again, could Mr. Fox be brief?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes. Some €20,000 of the dormant accounts funding that was being progressed at that stage was for the marketing and development of packs for new entrants to angling. The sum of €50,000 was split between the National Coarse Fishing Federation of Ireland, NCFFI, and the Angling Council of Ireland. The National Coarse Fishing Federation took up the funding of approximately €19,000 and the Angling Council of Ireland did not. It is on record at the previous hearing of the Committee of Public Accounts. A statement was made that it was committed to one particular organisation and the assistant secretary at the time confirmed that no explicit agreement was in place with that organisation.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There was an announcement by the then Minister of State of €70,000 in funding but no official commitment or agreement was in place for-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----one to receive it. The Minister of State made an announcement for a headline and there was no intention to follow it through in this instance. Is it not the case that there was a service level agreement, SLA, with the Angling Council of Ireland for €70,000?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There was a service level agreement, of which I have a copy. It was not followed through and then the distribution process moved from an SLA to an etender process. Despite the SLA being for a value of €70,000, the etender process for the distribution of this fund of €70,000 that was earmarked by the Minister of State only advertised for €50,000. There seems to be a discrepancy not only between the Minister of State making the announcement to one club – that is a different issue for the Minister of State to account for – but in the total amount that was agreed in the SLA and what was available later on in the etender.
Ms Suzanne Campion:
The announcement made by the Minister of State said that IFI works with AFYDI, ACI and other organisations. The award to IFI at the time was for €20,000 and €50,000. The sum of €20,000 was for a national angling strategy and €50,000 for novice angler activation.
The SLA the Deputy mentioned was in discussion with the ACI previous to all of that but it was never signed off or agreed upon. The €70,000 from the Dormant Accounts Fund is a completely separate issue. Of that, €20,000 went to the angling strategy and it was decided by the board and the Minister at the time that the €50,000 would be distributed in a fair manner through the etenders process.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct that the only organisation awarded that funding at the time was the NCFFI?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did the NCFFI at the time have its accreditation programme in place? Was it qualified to deliver the tender specifications that it was awarded?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did it have its accreditation in place?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So at the time of being awarded that funding in 2021, it had its accreditation programme in place.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sport Ireland confirmed in February 2021 that it did not.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would appreciate if Ms Campion could do that and clarify it to the committee.
I am tight on time but in my last couple of minutes of this round I would like to raise some local issues pertaining to where I come from. There are concerns about the fish count on the River Boyne being inaccurate. The counters are placed at Blackcastle in Navan, County Meath, where the river is quite wide. Is there a case to move the counters to a narrower part of the River Boyne to the ensure accuracy of the fish count? Is Mr. Fox concerned about that in any way?
Mr. Barry Fox:
No, I am not concerned about it. For us to establish a new fish counter on the Boyne would involve us putting in a crump weir or something similar in the river, which would impede protected species from migrating through the river, so it is not a policy I would advise pursuing.
To put it in context, in particular around salmon, our national conservation limit for salmon is 258,414. We are now sitting at 155,000, so while some rivers still have surpluses, most of the rivers in the State are under the conservation limit. There are a lot of issues around the management advice for 2026, but it needs to be taken in the context that salmon are in rapid decline. There are a lot of reasons for that. We do not blame anglers or commercial fishermen, but we have to take action to try to arrest the decline and that is what we are trying to do. Unfortunately, the Boyne is well below its conservation limit. There are merger issues in the Boyne. Some 53% of it is arterially drained, so production is lower than it should be for a catchment of that size. In recent years, we have been making significant investment in the Boyne to restore the habitats in the river. Hopefully, in the coming years we will see a reverse in the decline and an increase in fish.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The annual report states that in June 2023 there was illegal net fishing in the River Boyne Estuary at Baltray. Somebody was caught and fined for that. Have there been more instances of illegal net fishing going on in the river since then? Could Mr. Fox briefly comment on whether he sees a time when licensed draft net fishermen will be allowed to operate on the river or other rivers that they traditionally fished, or are those days gone?
Mr. Barry Fox:
They are certainly reducing for a number of geographical areas around the country. There are potentially seven areas where the commercial draft net fishing licences will be removed in 2026 if the Minister accepts the advice. The view at the time when the high seas drift-net fishing was removed was that there had to be an equal share of the stock between the commercial fishermen and the recreational anglers. If we move to a position where there are surplus stocks above the conservation limits in any catchment in the country, we would have look at how it would be shared out again in the future.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Our next questioner is Deputy Kenny.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I welcome the witnesses. I thank the C and AG for a comprehensive report, which I appreciate. I have a "Yes" or "No" question. Is the role of the deputy CEO set out in statute?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Was there a previous deputy CEO?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Very good.
I wish to focus on the uninsured vehicles. Following a road traffic accident in August 2021, the IFI discovered that 15 hired vehicles, including the vehicle involved in the accident, had been uninsured for a period. All the uninsured vehicles had been hired between 1 June and 27 July 2021. The IFI subsequently changed its insurance arrangements so that its vehicles no longer have to be insured on an individual basis. With the vehicle that was involved in the crash in Donegal, An Garda Síochána would have been involved. I have another "Yes" or "No" question. Was there any false documentation provided to An Garda Síochána in relation to this?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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On 6 July 2023, why did the ex-CEO, Francis O'Donnell, say at the public accounts committee that he knew on the day of the accident?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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When was the IFI made aware by the insurance company?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The IFI had a six-month legal obligation to make An Garda Síochána and the person who was in the accident - the staff member of the IFI - aware of this. It did not.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The IFI did not make gardaí aware.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The IFI allowed a staff member to receive a summons from An Garda Síochána in relation to no insurance even though the IFI was acutely aware of the fact that the vehicle was not insured.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Will Mr. Cusack go into that in further detail?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Was Mr. Cusack employed by the IFI at that stage?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Why did the ex-CEO Francis O'Donnell, at a previous public accounts committee meeting, inform the committee and a colleague, Deputy Alan Dillon - now Minister of State - that he knew on the day of the accident that the cars were uninsured?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is not an opinion. It was a fact. The car was uninsured.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is incorrect. Francis O'Donnell, who was the ex-CEO, made the committee aware that he knew on the day of the accident. Official documentation was provided to the IFI on 16 November that the car was uninsured but Mr. O'Donnell informed the committee on 6 July 2023 that the car uninsured. He knew on the day of the accident.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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When the IFI received the official documentation on 16 November 2021 from the insurers, why was it not produced to An Garda Síochána?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Of course, the IFI had a legal obligation to do so. It allowed a staff member to receive a summons. There was no mention of the IFI on the summons. That is a fact.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Of course, it is to do with insurance.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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On 16 November 2021, official communication was given to the IFI that the car was uninsured.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The IFI allowed a staff member to receive a summons from An Garda Síochána. It did not make the staff member aware of that until October 2022, which was a year after the accident and nearly a year after the IFI received the official documentation. It allowed him to receive that summons. There was no mention of the IFI on the summons because he was the driver of the car. The IFI waited a year to inform a staff member that the car was uninsured and never told An Garda Síochána.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Is Mr. Fox aware of the fact that former Minister, Eamon Ryan, had an external investigation into this? Those results were provided at the beginning of 2025. Those findings were provided to the chair at the board of the IFI at the beginning of 2025.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The findings of the external investigation Eamon Ryan instigated were issued to the board of the IFI at the beginning of 2025.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Mr. Fox has had no sight of findings. The Department commissioned an external investigation. As deputy CEO and now head of the IFI, Mr. Fox had no sight of the findings from that report.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That does not make any sense. There was an external investigation commissioned by the former Minister, Eamon Ryan, in relation to information that he had received regarding false documentation provided to An Garda Síochána in relation to an uninsured vehicle. Those findings were produced to the Garda Commissioner and the board of the IFI at the beginning of 2025 and Mr. Fox, as the head of the IFI, is unaware of those findings.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is unbelievable. The IFI allowed a staff member to receive a summons in relation to an uninsured vehicle. It received official confirmation on 16 November 2021 that the car was uninsured. Despite the former CEO, Francis O'Donnell, notifying the public accounts committee on 6 July 2023 that he knew on the day of the accident that the vehicle was uninsured, the member of staff received a summons after 16 November 2021. The fact of the matter is that the IFI did not produce that documentation to An Garda Síochána or the staff member. The witnesses are now saying that they did not understand that there was a legal obligation. Of course, there is a legal obligation. False documentation was provided to the staff member who then in turn provided it to An Garda Síochána. What we ultimately have now is a staff member of the IFI - reading between the lines - being thrown under the bus for this.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There were two summonses. One of them is still before the courts in relation to dangerous driving. I will not discuss that because it is before the courts. The second one is in relation to the uninsured vehicle where there is no mention of the IFI. The mention is in relation to the staff member.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That external investigation, where the findings were given to the board of the IFI, speaks wonders to me. It showcases the culture within the IFI that it has not brought that to Mr. Fox's attention and that it is not following up on an external investigation commissioned by the former Minister.
Those results and findings would have been given to Mr. Fox by the new Minister. The fact of the matter is that those findings are now on the desk of the Garda Commissioner. At the same time, the ex-CEO resigned as soon as those findings were given. I will not read between the lines because I do not want to make any allegations, but I am certain - I would have expected an answer on this today - that within those findings, there is evidence of this staff member being absolutely thrown under the bus by the IFI.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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No, Mr. Fox cannot say it was not the case.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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No, Mr. Fox cannot, because it was the case. The IFI was officially informed on 16 November 2021 that the car was uninsured. It chose not to inform that member of staff or An Garda Síochána, and allowed that staff member to receive two summonses, one for dangerous driving, which is before the courts, so I will not mention it again, and the second for the uninsured vehicle. The IFI chose a year later to inform that staff member. That is a matter of fact.
Mr. Barry Fox:
I will take that in two parts. The first part is that I expect - I could be wrong on this - that the investigation undertaken by the Department was a PD, so that is not something that IFI would have been made aware of. On the second part of it, I will go and look at the file. I will try to get as much information as I can, but in relation to the issue-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What I want Mr. Fox to do is to go back to the board and say, “I am the head of the IFI. Why was I not informed at the start of this year that the findings from the external investigation were produced by the Department?” That is what I would say. If Mr. Fox wants to create a culture of proper governance, he needs to be leading this organisation properly. What I certainly believe, because I know from experience on this, and Mr. Fox knows that I know from experience, because I am a Mallow man and I know about the revelations that are ongoing within the IFI, is that this needs to be absolutely built up once again from the ground up because the IFI is an organisation that is distrusted by the public. Hopefully, I will have a second opportunity to come in.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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With the agreement of the committee, we will correspond with the Department to see if we can obtain copies of those findings. I am surprised he is not aware of that information. I ask him to engage with the board and furnish us with any documentation related to it. I call Deputy Geoghegan.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of the witnesses. To continue on from Deputy Kenny's line of questioning, before he came into this meeting, what was Mr. Fox's state of knowledge on the summons that he mentioned?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Somebody handed Mr. Fox a piece of paper during that. It was handed to Ms Campion and then read to Mr. Fox. Where is that information flowing from?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Fox just being given that piece of paper to remind us of the information that he already knew? What was the purpose behind him being handed that piece of paper in response to the questions from Deputy Kenny?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am just trying to understand why Mr. Fox was handed a piece of paper by the gentleman behind him, which was read by Ms Campion. Mr. Fox put on his glasses and he then read it into the record. Why did he do that? What is the chain of command here? Why is Mr. Fox saying that now? Initially, he said he did not know anything about the summonses or about the information. Why is he now asserting that point? Mr. Fox then went on to say that he can “guarantee”. He was very firm, even though he did not know anything about this. There are contradictory things happening in real time here. I want to understand why the piece of paper was handed to Ms Campion. What was the motivation for that piece of paper being handed over? Why did Mr. Fox read it out straightaway, with his glasses on, as a response to the line of questioning from Deputy Kenny?
Mr. Barry Fox:
For clarity, there is no hidden agenda here with this. I did not think it was appropriate to speak about a criminal matter before the PAC. This is not a matter for the IFI, which is the first issue we discussed. I am not aware of any issue with a prosecution coming forward for no insurance. We were not aware of that as an organisation.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is that Mr. Cusack's understanding?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is there anybody here from the IFI who has anything more material to say in relation to anything that Deputy Kenny has just said? Is there anybody from the IFI sitting at the back, or here in front of me, including Mr. Cusack, with anything more material that they are aware of in relation to the matters that Deputy Kenny has raised?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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You have no information.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Ms McGinty is here on behalf of the Department. What can she say in respect of the report that Deputy Kenny is referring to?
Ms Catherine McGinty:
I am not aware that there was a report either. As Mr. Fox has mentioned, I would assume it is a protected disclosure. Protected disclosures are investigated within a dedicated unit of the Department. They are done externally. That ties in with the external investigation. We would not see those reports. We would not know what the investigation is about. I can try to follow up but I suspect that the level of information in relation to it would be quite limited in what we could provide.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The accounts dealt with by the Comptroller and Auditor General probably postdate a lot of these issues. Is there anything he can say in that respect from the board minutes he has reviewed?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
No, we are not aware of the particular report. Obviously, if it was a report that was delivered in January 2025, we would be reviewing that perhaps as part of the 2024 financial statements audit, which is not yet completed. It is certainly a matter that we will consider in that context.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy.
Does Mr. Fox attend board meetings?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Fox in attendance at the board meeting in the January referred to?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Fox has no recollection of these issues being raised at any board level meeting that he has attended.
Mr. Barry Fox:
No. There are closed sessions for the board. Issues like this, particularly if they are of the nature of a PD, would be discussed in closed session. If something came in from the Department, I would expect that is where it would have been discussed, not at an open board meeting with the executive.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to other matters. It sounds like that is as much information as we can get here today.
Mr. Fox made a very grand statement in response to Deputy Boland that, as an organisation, the IFI is punching above its weight. When did it start punching above its weight?
Mr. Barry Fox:
What I am referring to there is the activities of our environmental officers and protection officers on the ground. They work extremely hard. They are very committed to the environment and to the protection of our native species. They go above and beyond on a daily basis to deliver that role.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When Deputy Boland pushed Mr. Fox on this, he actually referred to the enforcement activity as demonstrating why IFI is punching above its weight. Now, he is saying it is punching above its weight because of the work that its environmental officers do on the ground. Which is it?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The investigations would lead to the enforcement.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The IFI threw a lot of punches that were not legally authorised a number of years ago in terms of prosecutions that had to be withdrawn. That is really why I am asking the question. Over 60 prosecutions, roughly, had to be withdrawn. Is there a comparable prosecutorial authority in this country that had to withdraw 60 prosecutions because of legal deficiencies?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So the IFI is a less bad version of other bad prosecutorial authorities.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am going to go back to Mr. Fox's statement that IFI is punching above its weight. When did that start? When did the clean bill of health begin? Can he put a year or a month on it? When did the punching above its weight by the IFI begin? When was the page turned? When did all of that start?
Mr. Barry Fox:
I think what I was referring to was our staff on the ground and the service they deliver. The Deputy may not agree but I think the issues we have experienced have been governance and control issues internally. Our staff, who are the absolute engine of the organisation, have been punching above their weight for many years, and they had no part to play in the issues that we are discussing here today.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When Mr. Fox says they have been punching above their weight for many years, what blame does he assign to the executive in respect of this? We all acknowledge the governance issues, but individual decisions taken by people who worked in the executive triggered a lot of these problems. Surely Mr. Fox is not waving his hands at that, or suggesting that employees or management had no responsibility to bear in respect of all of this.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There was a litany of issues. It was not just one or two.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There was an accumulation. For Mr. Fox to speak of the staff in the glowing terms he is using seems very contradictory to the comprehensive reports that have been produced in respect of the litany of issues. Does Mr. Fox see where I am coming from?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Just on the point made about the taxpayer and the IFI's enforcement activity, am I right in saying that the average fine on the lower end is approximately €400?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Are legal costs approximately €4,000?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There is almost a ten to one ratio between the legal costs IFI is paying and the fines that are being dished out for a lot of the cases taken to enforcement.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is that an efficient use of taxpayers' money?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The fines do not fit the crimes. They should be charged €4,000 to match the legal costs.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The IFI can only exercise the statutory powers it currently has. I hear the point that Mr. Fox is making in respect of that, but it is not really our function here. In terms of the powers the IFI does have, are there not better ways that it could impose fines while not subjecting the organisation to such high and exorbitant legal costs?
Mr. Barry Fox:
We have a fixed-charge penalty system in place that addresses those minor offences, but quite a lot of the time those fines remain unpaid and we have to proceed to court anyway. That is where there certainly is not value for money. We issue a fixed-charge penalty notice for a fine of €150, it comes back unpaid and we have to bring forward legal proceedings.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I want to close out on a value-for-money issue, and I acknowledge that this is a legacy issue. Is it correct to say, and Deputy Murphy talked about it a little bit, that an IFI employee was funded to the amount of €20,000 for an MBA?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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My understanding from the report was that this was only type of MA that was funded by the IFI. Is Mr. Fox telling me that other members of staff received funding?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How many MAs or MBAs to the amount of €20,000 have been funded by the IFI over its lifetime?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In those cases, were the people who received funding at a management level?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Were those nine people at management level?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So they were not doing MBAs.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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None of those nine were MBAs?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Has the IFI funded any MBAs since it funded one for a staff member at a non-managerial level?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Was that a wrong decision to fund that individual's MBA?
Mr. Barry Fox:
I do not think so. The individual submitted a business case. It went to HR. It was approved. There were timing issues in the payment of the moneys to the college, but under our processes, any staff member in the IFI is entitled to apply for funding to progress in the organisation and get further education. That is part of our policy. I do not think it was the wrong the decision.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Right now, other staff members could conceivably get funded to the amount of €20,000 for an MBA, if they applied.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I note from Mr. Fox's opening statement that there has been a catastrophic collapse in the salmon yields and salmon returns. There has been a catastrophic collapse in the public's trust in this organisation over the past three years. Mr. Fox also said that the organisation has been constrained for many years by limited financial resources. It is very hard to marry that type of statement with so many examples of the misuse of public funds. It is very hard to see how there have been constraints placed on an organisation that in many circumstances misspent or misappropriated funds in the way that IFI did.
I am going to first focus on some of the rulings from the WRC. The C and AG report refers to an unfair dismissal at a cost of €38,500 plus legal fees of €38,000. The WRC report stated that the employee was targeted from the beginning and that the CEO attempted to surreptitiously influence the adjudicator by attempting to speak to him off record. The WRC also stated that it could see no reason for the suspension and that it seemed that the employee was to be taken out by hook or by crook. How long did that employee work for IFI?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was 37 years. Imagine being taken out by hook or by crook after 37 years. At the previous public accounts committee, the former CEO spoke at length about major fraud investigations and an imminent prosecution. What is the status of that fraud investigation and prosecution?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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According to the former CEO, prosecutions were imminent. The DPP, however, decided there was nothing to be done.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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An anonymous letter was received and it was acted on by the executive within four days. Was there any internal investigation done before this person was suspended?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Fox and Ms Campion both signed this man's dismissal letter.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Fox should not try to portray that he is unaware of the situation.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What internal review took place? It was one anonymous letter and four days later a man was suspended.
Mr. Barry Fox:
I will clarify what I can. The appeal is undertaken on the information that was used to make the decision to dismiss. With regard to the letter the Deputy is referring to, I am not aware of that letter. I was not in the organisation when that issue arose. I came into the organisation in July 2022.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The anonymous letter began the dismissal process.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Fox got no handover as to what the letter contained.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How could Mr. Fox fairly adjudicate on an appeal if he did not have the information to hand?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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A man was dismissed because of an allegation made in an anonymous letter. Mr. Fox and Ms Campion co-signed the appeal decision, although the WRC ultimately found that there was no reason for suspension in the first place. Mr. Fox and Ms. Campion say that they did not have sight of the letter. I cannot understand this. How could they have made an informed decision?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I was here for that.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is a complete separate incident to the reason. That is a really important point to make.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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IFI has stood over this decision. I cannot understand this. The Daily Mail reported that the former CEO described the WRC's ruling as reckless. Does Mr. Fox agree with that description?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The former CEO described the WRC's ruling as reckless. The Daily Mail reported that the former CEO described the WRC's ruling as a reckless decision.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. Fox agree?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Fox had to have done so. He signed the letter.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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A man's life was ruined. Would Mr. Fox not apologise to this man? If he is saying he had no sight of what started this process, then surely to God, an apology is the minimum that is owed. The WRC found in his favour. He had 37 years of service to the organisation.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In a separate WRC ruling this year, it was stated that a former employee was asked to bring a child down the town for an ice cream. Whose child was that?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Down the town for an ice cream. It was stated in a WRC ruling.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In a separate WRC ruling this year, evidence was given that a staff member had been asked to mind somebody else's child while a meeting was taking place.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is anybody else aware of what I am speaking about this morning?
I will move on to the failed prosecutions. The former CEO called them a glitch and a slight technicality. Does Mr. Fox agree with that terminology?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We have spoken a lot about who was around at the time when the failed prosecutions took place. When did the first of the 61 failed prosecutions take place?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The report we have read suggests that the bulk of those was from 2023 until now, where warrants were not executed.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Whose responsibility is it to finalise those warrants?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No, but to finalise the warrants, who signs off on those from an IFI perspective?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who instructs the panel solicitors?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For the 61 cases, where did this fall down? At whose role did it fall down?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Fox went to the board asking approval of 61 cases and it would not give that approval.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to ask a quick question about Aasleagh Lodge. What is the valuation on the property now?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was the property ever valued at €1 million?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What would happen on a site that would see it devalue by €500,000 between 2017 and now?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What would happen a site to cause this. Had works taken place? Why is the valuation of the house now half what it was in 2017?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Fair enough, but is Ms Campion saying that the intention is to sell?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is no intention to sell now.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was rental income ever accrued from the cottages to the IFI?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
Yes. There is a long history to this, as the Deputy has probably seen through the various sets of accounts. The IFI used to manage Aasleagh Lodge and cottages as bed and breakfast accommodation, for which it took rental income. In 2015 the board made the decision to no longer operate them itself and to lease them out. A commercial bidder won the tender and took over the lodge but gave it up after a year because they were not making money. It was subsequently offered to all staff, pending sale in 2017. An agreement was put in place at that stage which was thought would be finished very soon when the building was sold but it actually ran on to 2021.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did the board ever try to sell the house but found itself unable to do so because of lease agreements that it was unaware of?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Ms Campion and Mr. Fox.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I note that Deputy Farrelly raised a number of issues around the WRC and different rulings. I appreciate that the witnesses are here to discuss the financial accounts and the special report from the C and AG. The witnesses might furnish the committee with a note in relation to the items Deputy Farrelly raised relating to the WRC. We will now suspend the meeting for ten to 15 minutes.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fox wants to correct the record on a number of items that he made reference to earlier.
Mr. Barry Fox:
First, between 2018 and 2025, it was five master's, not nine. I was reading from a sheet. It is five, instead of nine.
To answer Deputy Kenny's question on the report from the Department, there was a report from the Department that came in in February of this year. The audit and risk committee, ARC, was tasked with considering the findings from it. They accepted the first two, which was that IFI had no insurance on the vehicle. They refuted the position that IFI knowingly allowed an employee to present insurance to An Garda Síochána. That is the position. Apologies, I did not have that information.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks for that. I am sure there will be some questions stemming from that. Our next questioner is Deputy Dolan.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas le IFI for being here today. I want to ask about the former CEO's overclaimed subsistence. Paragraph 6.3 of the C and AG's report highlights this. Did the CEO have approval from the board to change his contractual base?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Was there verbal agreement between the former CEO and the board?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Was the board aware of his new base? They might have signed the expenses approving the amount but were they aware of that change of location?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What was the total figure that was overclaimed?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That was from the new base. If this was an overpayment and this CEO has left the organisation, was any of that money recovered?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Why was only €1,041 repaid given there was an overpayment of €7,972?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the IFI plan to recoup that money?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I ask is purely if IFI had overpaid €7,900, surely it should get €7,900.
How was the decision made to reclaim only €1,000?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There is a failure of procedure we have to drill down into, namely, that there was no written confirmation or written agreement from the board for the contractual change of base that would lead to increased subsistence payments. Does Mr. Fox believe IFI will now put in place a procedure whereby any contractual base changes must be approved by the board?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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When was that put in place?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department believe the money should be recouped?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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On a similar line, overclaimed travel expenses, I understand a former board member was a staff representative on the board. This person had an IFI work vehicle, parked it near their base and drove the car privately to board meetings in Dublin, but claimed full rate expenses. Is Mr. Fox aware of this?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Has that former board member been asked to repay the full amount of overclaimed travel expenses?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Campion have a figure for how much this person overclaimed?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is that just for one month or is that the total?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is that person who was on the board still an employee at IFI?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Would it make sense to try to claim that back by way of clawback through the salary?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, if somebody is using his or her own vehicle, it is hard for an organisation to detect that, so I understand that, but now that IFI has knowledge of it, it has an obligation to act and seek that this money be recouped. Would IFI be willing to give a commitment today that it will recoup that €1,000-plus?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Mr. Fox might come back to me in writing because I do not think IFI can say it will review it and then not reclaim the money. I am putting it to him now that that money should be recouped, purely out of principal, because at the end of the day there are good travel allowances and good subsistence in place for people to be supported, and there are work vehicles and everything. However, we cannot allow somebody to abuse it - we all have knowledge of the abuse - and then let them away with it. We need that bit of accountability from IFI. That is a way for IFI as well to show this committee it is serious about this and that it wants to get it resolved. Were any disciplinary or governance processes undertaken in response to that behaviour?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is another thing. If anyone here overclaimed mileage or travel or anything, they would be repaying it. They would be hauled before this committee or something. It is just so important that IFI is aware of actual information of an actual abuse of the system. It has to be clawed back.
The next issue I want to ask about is the removal of board members in February 2023. Why were the remaining board members removed instead of simply new members being appointed to restore a quorum?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the board members were described as diligent and hardworking, and they were all removed. How was the decision taken to remove members from the board of IFI?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Was the board removed because it was ineffective?
Ms Catherine McGinty:
No, the senior counsel review, which finished in July 2022, made no suggestion that the board was ineffective at that point. The board became unviable because of the continuous reservations from the board at not being able to establish a quorum. It was those resignations and the fact that it could not meet the functions of the board-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Surely if the remaining board members were not ineffective, it would have made more sense just to appoint however many board members were needed. Iit is good to have rotation on a board, but it is also good to have a working knowledge of the organisation. Why was the decision taken to remove them?
Ms Catherine McGinty:
I do not know why the Minister made that decision, but what I could suggest is that it relates to the appointment process. People have to go through a State board appointment process. That would have taken time, which would have meant the board for that period of time - it can take up to six months - would not have had a quorum.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Sometimes, there are people on boards who are trying to do good and figure out what is happening in an organisation to accelerate it. Then, these members were removed, which does not really make sense. They could have been left there. They had working knowledge of the issues. They were trying to work through them, obviously, because they were not removed until February 2023. It just looked like it was a case of clearing the house, and we will go again. Sometimes that can be acceptable, but I just do not understand the rationale behind that.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but Ms McGinty knows how that comes across.
I am conscious of my time. I want to go back to those systemic governance failures around the expenses. I know it is only a small amount of money, but if we can get the basics right in any organisation, everything else will flourish from there. Did the Comptroller and Auditor General recognise any internal weaknesses or control deficiencies in his report that he thought IFI should improve on?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
What we were trying to do with the report was to pull all this together. There is obviously a considerable amount of work that has been done by IFI itself and by the section 18 appointees and the new board. There are internal audits and so on. There is a huge amount of learning there. We would be looking to see that all of those actions that are identified are being followed up. With each audit that goes on, we would be looking to see that the current board is overseeing the implementation of all that action.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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At what point is it decided that, say, a special report has to be done?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
That depends on the circumstances. I decided that this had affected at least two sets of financial statements. There would have been maybe management letter points even before that. However, the thing had become so complex that I just felt it was necessary to try to draw a line under it and get all these issues on paper and try to assist in a new start for the organisation.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Go raibh maith agat.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Our next questioner is Deputy McAuliffe.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair. I have a slot for Questions on Promised Legislation in the Dáil Chamber, so I am taking Deputy Ardagh's slot here. I thank my fellow committee members.
I welcome the witnesses back. It is their third appearance. They are like contestants on "The X Factor"; they keep coming back. The question is, having acknowledged good work being done now at this level, whether they will get through to the next round and, hopefully, not come back. It is worth reflecting on because the Chairman and I sat on the previous Committee of Public Accounts. There was significant discussion on the record at the committee with regard to the previous board, the chief executive and the issues. When we go through them, they were incredibly significant issues around dormant accounts funding, particular properties such as Ashleigh and the CEO's expenses. What an organisation wants to do is come into the Committee of Public Accounts and establish confidence in the organisation and the public money that is being allocated to it. I hope we do that today.
I want to reflect on some of the board issues because some board members were not present at the previous Committee of Public Account meetings. There was a particular discussion. Deputy Dolan has asked about the approval of the change of base for the CEO.
On the contract with the CEO, on a previous occasion we established his base was Citywest. That was never changed formally in writing with the board's approval or with any knowledge of the board. Is that correct?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That decision was made by the head of HR and not by the board.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is important information because it gets to the root of who changed the base of the CEO.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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On the basis of the records of the board, there is no board decision that the base of the CEO was changed in any way.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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A reference was made that the Comptroller and Auditor General had a copy of a letter. That is the letter from the head of HR, who was a subordinate of the CEO.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The board was grappling with a significant number of issues, to be fair to it. I have listed them. There is a question. There was inevitably a disagreement here between the board and the CEO. That is where issues always grind into difficulty. Deputy Dolan touched on it as well. On the reason for dismissing the board on a no-fault basis, many people who are involved in public life come forward to serve on these boards and I imagine it was a very unsatisfactory way for those board members to finish their time with IFI. Did IFI have any communication with them after the decision?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The then Minister, Deputy Ryan, made that decision in order to try to progress the issues and move on. However, those board members were left in a position where they were no longer members of a board, no longer able to attend the Committee of Public Accounts and no longer able to, in a public way, put forward their position on the matter. We left them, in many ways, very vulnerable in these circumstances. Is that fair?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Anyone who finishes their time with an organisation in that way would inevitably feel a shadow was left over them, although the Minister was clear it was on a no-fault basis. Would the Comptroller and Auditor General like to comment on that?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, it was a necessary step.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It was a structural response. I will come back to that point. They were dismissed on a no-fault basis. I have some sympathy for people who step forward to serve in a position where there is a disagreement with a CEO, who is often in a full-time position and has the capacity of the organisation and so on, not specifically in this case but in general, where directors are sometimes left vulnerable. I will leave it at that.
On the dormant accounts funding, is IFI satisfied that it has got to the bottom of the issues that arose regarding dormant accounts?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There were significant concerns about the overheads which were attached to that. Six members of staff were appointed. Laptops and equipment were needed for them and the level of funding that was going to individual groups seemed to be very small. Is that a fair reflection?
Mr. Barry Fox:
I do not think it is a fair reflection. Following audit, we elected to pay back €28,000. We were asked pay a portion of it. We elected to pay the full amount of €28,000. The animators, as we will call them - the people who were on the ground - were delivering for the money that was funded from the Dormant Accounts Fund.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The question was whether a sufficient amount of the overall allocated resources went to the organisations on the ground.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Was IFI satisfied that all the organisations that received funding existed and operated and that there were outcomes following the audit?
Mr. Barry Fox:
The Maugherow Sea Angling Club was funded through the governing body, the Angling Council of Ireland, ACI. It was out of process with the policy for funding at the time. However, very quickly after that, the club got its own bank account and had its constitution in place. I was with it two weeks ago and confirmed that all the equipment is still in use. The club is active and is interested in doing some youth angling development work with us in 2026.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to the issue of the number of credit cards. I heard some evidence earlier, which for my benefit the witnesses might repeat. The number has been reduced and there are more controls in that space.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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In what circumstances are staff permitted to use credit cards?
Mr. Barry Fox:
We have a number of staff who do a lot of foreign travel. When people go to such places as the USA for angling promotion events and so on, it would be a significant burden on them to have to spend their own money. They have use of a credit card therefore to hire a car, book accommodation and such things, if it cannot be done through the purchase order, PO, system. However, every cent spent on a credit card goes through the purchase order system. It is not a matter of people just walking in and tapping the card. There is back-up paperwork for that spending.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Are those statements reviewed?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Who are they reviewed by?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
We are down to five credit cards now so there will be a lot less reviewing. Our expenditure on credit cards to the end of October is €67,000 over the 17 cards. That is approximately €4,000 per card. The type of expenditure now is mostly on things that cannot be done through a normal PO system.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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An online purchase might be needed.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Of all the evidence I have heard at the Committee of Public Accounts, one of the jawdropping issues was the insurance with regard to the number of vehicles affected and the exposure that left for the State and IFI. Will the witnesses give us an update about where things stand on that?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking about the fleet and insurance in place at the moment and the use of fleet as compared with in-house vehicles.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will not test the Cathaoirleach's timing. I thank him.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone. I will get started with Mr. Fox. Am I correct that he is the acting CEO?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was 2021 the year he started?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. Fox employed before by IFI?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As Mr. Fox is the acting CEO, can he tell me whether there a full board is in place now?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many members does it have?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are eight members now.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There should be ten.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There should be ten but there are eight. What is a quorum for meetings?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I read in one of the articles that IFI could not impose fines because there were not enough board members at one stage. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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IFI could not impose penalties.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Whenever the board wants to impose penalties, it must have a quorum. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I might go back over that again. I thought I had read that. I want to go back to a question that was brought up by one of my colleagues earlier regarding consultants. Was the figure quoted €2 million?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was just in 2024.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The document I have here would have been in place in the year that Mr. Fox was on board.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a document relating to Inland Fisheries from Ernst and Young, EY. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much did the production of the document cost in consultation fees?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This document cost €58,000. I cannot get over the incredible waste of money that has happened here in relation to consultants. It is extraordinary to spend that amount of money. Some €2 million was spent on consultants. How many staff are there?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are 329 staff and €2 million was spent on consultants. Does Mr. Fox think IFI gets good value for money for all those consultations?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is on solicitors.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about consultations with bodies such as Ernst and Young.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So, €59,000 was spent on this document. Does Mr. Fox feel IFI got good value for that €59,000?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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IFI spent the money. The money came out-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It gave good guidance. Did IFI follow any of that guidance?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will get down to the guidance and recommendations from Ernst and Young. It recommended that within three months, there should be a clear definition and agreement of the strategic remit of IFI. Does Mr. Fox think there is now a clear remit and strategic purpose for IFI?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is another consultant doing that document?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much has the IFI spent on consultations with EY in the past year?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much was spent in the year we are auditing, 2024?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There were just the two consultations in that year.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So, it cost €29,000 to implement the recommendations that were made.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I find it hard to believe that IFI could not implement its own recommendations and that it needed somebody else to come in and get the recommendations. Did EY have to implement them or make sure the IFI was implementing them?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is unbelievable. The next thing it recommended related to the membership of the board. Is that now in place?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It recommended a refreshing of support and governance structures and the provision of training.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has that been done? Training and induction of the board has been done. There is no CEO, so there could not be a good relationship between the CEO and the chair.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The board is up and running. Has Mr. Fox 12 months' worth of minutes from all the meetings? Could we have those? Can Mr. Fox get them to the committee?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For 2024, the year that is being audited. I would like to see the board minutes from that year. In the next six months, IFI is supposed to address the function and effectiveness of SMT. What is SMT?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We still do not have a CEO in the senior management team. Does Mr. Fox think it is good function and effectiveness if we do not have a CEO at the helm? There is nobody in charge.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fox is operating in an acting capacity.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are a lot of issues here. There seem to have been an awful lot of issues over the years. I do not know if it is operating very well. I would not use those words. Within those 12 months, Mr. Fox believes that everything within the executive summary that Ernst and Young produced, all those recommendations, are now in place.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on to staffing. Was there an increase of staff in 2024?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What was the cost of that? How much extra did IFI spend on staff in that year?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is okay. That is all right.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Nearly all of the €40.5 million goes on staff. Some 90% of it goes on staff.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses will come back to me on how many staff they had employed with additional income and how much additional money came in that year for staffing.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Some €1.4 million was spent that year on unsociable hours.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They get additionality.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is great. Mr. Fox said that the staff are providing an excellent service. How much was spent on fuel cards in 2024?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If Ms Campion could furnish me with that, it would be fantastic. I also noted in an article that there is now 90% fewer salmon. Why would that be if the staff of IFI was doing such a fantastic job?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Salmon stocks have been in dramatic decline since the 1970s. IFI is doing everything it can to control the freshwater environment. There is a lot more to be done. There is a lot of restoration work to be done at scale in the country. There is a lot more work to be done with other agencies on trying to deal with other pressures that are on salmon numbers and a number of other fish species. The big issue, without question, is water quality. That is a matter on which we have to work with other organisations.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is IFI doing to address that? Is it just going to keep letting it deteriorate? Is it not the job of IFI-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----to ensure we have fish?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is also about ensure we have water of a good quality for fish.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the cottages at Aasleagh Lodge and cottages, will Mr. Fox give me a briefing on what happened there? Those cottages were leased by an employee. Is that correct?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes. Back in 2017, a lease was agreed with an employee of the organisation for the cottages only. That went on for a number of years. Then, for a period of six months approximately, Aasleagh house was included. I believe the CEO was made aware of it and reported it to the board. A decision was taken to collapse that contract.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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An employee had the lease. Did the employee make a rental income then? Did the rental income go to IFI or the employee?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why would IFI share that €77,000 with an employee for houses it owns?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Where has that €77,000 gone?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that not fraud? Does it not-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was a written agreement but IFI never got the money back. I cannot understand an employee coming in and getting rent for buildings belonging to IFI.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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She was renting them out.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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She was renting them out but IFI own them.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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She was getting the money for them.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Where is the share that she got? Why would she get a share of that money? I cannot understand that.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that contract finished now?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. Mr. Fox is acting chief executive. When did he take over that role?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Are you also a member of the board?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were you previously a member of the board?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fox stated the board got the report on the protected disclosure relating to the accident, when he came in to clarify, in February of this year. He said there were three recommendations in that report.
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes. The report came down from the Department to the chair of IFI. There were three findings in the report. Two were around IFI not having the correct insurance in place and the third was IFI knowingly providing insurance details to An Garda Síochána. The board and the audit and risk committee, ARC, had accepted the first two but refuted the third, which was knowingly presenting the insurance details to An Garda Síochána.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The third finding was refuted.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You are not quite sure. I find it extraordinary that Mr. Fox came before us today and, midway through, he had to correct the record that he had not got the relevant information. Even in terms of the recommendations, he does not have the relevant information, when this has been cited within the special report by the C and AG. I am sure, as acting CEO, he should have informed himself of the full and total complexity and the issues relating to this case. Does he accept that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You should have had that information before coming in here.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You accept that. It does not really give us much confidence that Mr. Fox has not informed himself in relation to that. Is the staff member who was involved in that accident still within the organisation?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Are they actively working and-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have concerns in relation to how the whole thing was handled. Mr. Fox said he is a board member or can sit on the board.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fox said that when issues such as protected disclosures, PDs, are being discussed, he would have to excuse himself, or a process is there to discuss issues such as this.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The former chief executive officer finished employment in June of this year. He had been out on leave since March 2024. Am I correct on that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was 13 months or thereabouts. Ms Campion said he had been paid for some of that duration.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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He was employed for the full year of 2023.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How did it come about that he went from full pay to half pay and then back to full pay? What was the process? How did that come about?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Campion has no background on that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Might anyone from finance have any-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It seems quite bizarre. There is no rationale. Has Mr. Fox been given a rationale as to why a situation like that might come about? Was he not aware of this, as chief executive?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It seems extraordinary the former chief executive remained on full pay up until 4 June.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was the end of the five-year contract on 4 June?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was 28 November, so he finished ahead of the end of the contract. I ask for a full note from the board in relation to that. It is bizarre, to say the least. I would love to see how that situation came about and what the rationale was for someone going from full pay to half pay and then having it fully restored. I ask that we get a full note on that. Do we know why the former chief executive was on leave?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I find it extraordinary. I would appreciate a note on that.
Reference was made to the WRC case that came about as a result of a very short process. I am not sure whether "process" is the right word. It was said a protected disclosure came in in relation to that particular case and, four days later, moves were made to remove that former staff member after 37 years of service. Were a number of issues contained in that protected disclosure? Does Mr. Fox know the nature of the complaints in that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There was one issue, which was elaborated on within the WRC. There were issues in relation to a vehicle; I think it was a tractor. Is that-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do we know on what basis that came about? It was alleged an individual had a vehicle, in this instance, a tractor, or something like that-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was that tractor being used by IFI?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Would it have been the normal process around that time for a vehicle such as that to be kept at individuals' homes?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Over the years, there certainly was equipment held at locations around the country at people's homes, where bases were not available. We have moved from that now. There is one area in Cavan, where we do not have a base located, where people would bring certain pieces of equipment home but I am talking about small items.
There appears to have been a local agreement in place in regard to the tractor issue but we cannot find any paperwork to substantiate that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is there any other example such as that? I am sure on foot of that there was an exercise and audit carried out within the organisation to identify whether there were other similar circumstances. Was there a process carried out?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was a fuel card attached to that particular vehicle?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Fox talk to me about the process around fuel cards at the time? Was there a fuel card attached to every vehicle, or who had access to fuel cards?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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At that time, that particular tractor was held for ten years or more with a fuel card. Who would have signed off on the purchase of fuel? What kind of authority or clearing process was there for the use of that fuel card? Who was monitoring its use?
Mr. Barry Fox:
The supervisor of that person would be approving the spend on the fuel card and that would go into the finance section and be reviewed there. It would also go into the logistics section to be analysed against the vehicle to ensure the use was within the norms for that type of vehicle.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In that particular instance, who was the person submitting and authorising that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Earlier on, Mr. Fox made reference to how there had been a number of Garda investigations. Files went to the DPP. The DPP subsequently ruled not to proceed. Mr. Fox then said there was one issue still under investigation. Is that under investigation by IFI or by An Garda Síochána?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is an internal matter, unrelated to any of those protected disclosures, or is that investigation ongoing with IFI on foot of a protected disclosure?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Fox give us a rough idea of what the ongoing internal investigation at the organisation at the moment is?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an allegation of some wrongdoing there or what is the issue?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Has IFI engaged with An Garda Síochána during that investigation? No.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Not at this point. Were there ever any allegations of blackmail brought to the board's notice or to the notice of Mr. Fox as acting chief executive officer?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fox would not be aware of that. It is not something that would have been discussed at board level at any point, that Mr. Fox is aware of?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will leave it at that. I have a number of other questions but I will let other members come in at this point.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I cannot remember which Deputy was asking about the board's potential authorisation of a change of base. It was mentioned that there was a letter to the former chief executive indicating that there was a change of base. There is not anything in that letter that suggests the chair of the board at the time was aware of the change of location, just to be clear on that. I can provide a copy of the letter if required.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That would be useful. We will open it up again for a second round. Deputy Kenny is next.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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How much time will I have?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Perfect. After the break, Mr. Fox corrected the record in regard to three findings. I presume he rang someone during the break to find out?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Did Mr. Fox ring the chair of the board?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Did he ring a member of the board?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The compliance officer did not make Mr. Fox aware that findings were released to the board.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It was only today that he made Mr. Fox aware of that.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What different issue?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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This contact would have been made from the Department.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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This contact would have been made from the Department.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There are three findings, two in relation to the incident itself and one to the false insurance documents. The board is refuting the false documents.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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We can all refute it. There is no refuting this; it is a matter of fact. On 16 November 2021 the board of IFI, as well as the chief executive officer, were made aware, officially at that stage, that the documentation was inaccurate.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It did not provide that evidence to An Garda Síochána.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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What would Mr. Fox say to the former CEO who said at the public accounts committee that he knew on the day of the accident?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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How can the board refute that when the former CEO said he knew on the day?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The insurance company told yourselves in November-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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-----that the documentation was inaccurate.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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No, that the documentation provided to An Garda Síochána was inaccurate.
Mr. Michael Cusack:
In regard to the insurance policy we had, when the incident arose on 10 August 2021, the insurance company was notified of the incident and there was a clarification sought by the insurers as to whether that vehicle had been declared. It was not the case that they had said on the date of the incident that there was no insurance and that no indemnity would be provided. It was through a series of communications with the insurers over the period up until mid November 2021 that we got clarification that, in this case, the insurer would be declining cover.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Why did Mr. Cusack not bring that to the attention of An Garda Síochána or the staff member at that stage?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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IFI did not make the employee aware of that until October 2022, a year later.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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No. In October 2022 IFI made the employee aware the vehicle was uninsured and the only reason IFI did that was because he received a letter from a solicitor and a personal claims letter to say the insurance he provided to An Garda Síochána was inaccurate.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Did IFI say to the employee, "The car was not insured. We received this on 16 November 2021 and the car is not insured"?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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You threw him under the bus. You allowed-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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You allowed him-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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You allowed him to continue with the false documentation he provided, knowingly allowed him, at that stage.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Two pieces from the code of conduct for IFI staff state that it is the policy of the IFI to comply with all relevant statutory and regulatory requirements governing its operations. If anyone other than the staff member is involved in a road traffic accident, they must show their insurance certificate to local gardaí within 24 hours. The IFI was made aware on 16 November 2021 that the insurance documentation that he provided within that 24-hour period was inaccurate and the IFI failed to tell him and to tell An Garda Síochána. The board is now refuting that and does not have a leg to stand on. An external investigation took place from former Minister Eamon Ryan's office. The external investigation basically said that the IFI knowingly allowed this to happen. It did, because on 16 November, three months after the crash, it officially knew and still failed to tell An Garda Síochána or the employee.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Is that a fact? Yes or no.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Is it a fact that IFI did not tell An Garda Síochána or the employee when it received the official documentation that the car was uninsured? Yes or no.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is the critical thing there.
Mr. Michael Cusack:
These included contacting the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman. There is also an arbitration process in the policy itself, which allowed IFI an opportunity to challenge the decision of the insurers. These processes took time subsequent to the original letter in mid-November 2021.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Did the legal advice not say the IFI gave false documentation to the employee, who in turn gave it to the Garda? The IFI received confirmation that it was not insured. It should have told the employee and An Garda Síochána that this was a live investigation.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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If there had not been a car crash, the IFI would have continued with 16 uninsured vehicles on the road.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There is no speculation; it is a fact.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The bottom line is there was an employee of Inland Fisheries Ireland involved in a car crash. IFI knowingly on 16 November continued to allow the false document it gave to him to provide to An Garda Síochána. It knowingly allowed that to continue. That is a fact.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Cusack to furnish the committee with a full note on what he has said and to elaborate.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The IFI contacted solicitors after 16 November. Will it furnish the committee with the legal documents it received advising it what to do?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Kenny. We will now turn to Deputy Geoghegan.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair. Mr. Fox went out and phoned the compliance officer during the break in this hearing. Is that correct?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The compliance officer represented to him the position of the board. Is that correct?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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He has not had any contact with anybody like the chair, for example, and he is the acting CEO. Is that correct?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Fox the acting CEO right now?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does he report to the chair of the board?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Why did he ring the compliance officer and not the chair of the board?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Mr. Fox is here representing the position of the board on a serious issue, without the chair. However, he is confident that what the compliance officer has represented is the true and accurate position of the board.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The position of the board, following the conclusion of an external investigator appointed by the Department into a protected disclosure made by the driver of the uninsured vehicle in the accident, who is an employee of IFI, is that it completely and utterly refutes the key finding of the external investigator that IFI knowingly provided false documentation to An Garda Síochána. Is that-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How is that a sustainable position?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How does Mr. Fox say that with such confidence, when before he left the room, he did not know anything about this protected disclosure?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Hold on, hold on.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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He did not know anything about this protected disclosure. He did not know anything about this report. He phoned the compliance officer, not even the chair of the board, and now he has come back with such utter confidence to say that they can refute this entirely. How can he explain that to us?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Fox at this board meeting in February 2025?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is he joking me? He was at the board meeting in February 2025 when the Department notified the external investigators’ report to the board.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Hold on. Mr. Fox was at the board meeting when this report was revealed to it in February 2025.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So, he just forgot when I asked. Earlier on, I asked everybody here what knowledge they had in relation to this. Mr. Fox said he had no knowledge. He said with protected disclosures, sometimes he leaves the room. Ms McGinty from the Department had no knowledge. I am not putting any fault on her, she just had no knowledge of it. I presume that position has not changed. Mr. Fox said he had no knowledge but now he is saying he was at the meeting when it was disclosed to the board that an external investigation was carried out and those three findings were presented to the board. Is that what he is now saying?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It was referred to what?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What was referred to the ARC?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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But he was at the meeting when this report was notified. Will he just clarify? It is really simple. Was he at the board meeting when this report was notified to the board?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Why did he tell the committee that he knew nothing about this report if he was at the board meeting when this report was notified to them? Will he please just answer that simple-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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He is at an Oireachtas committee here-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----where we are trying to get answers about an organisation that he said is punching above its weight. Will he please give us a clear answer as to why he did not tell this committee he was at the board meeting when an external investigation had been notified to the board?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, his previous position was that he was not aware about any of it. We asked everybody here. I clearly asked. Was he concealing information from this committee?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What did he know when he told us he knew nothing?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What does that mean? It was something that was not in his head. Did he know information before he left this room about this report of any variety?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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None whatsoever.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What does he mean, not that he is aware of? It is his mind.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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He has no recollection.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Now, he comes in with all his bravado saying he is utterly confident that he can completely refute a determination made by an external investigator appointed independently of both the Department and the inland fisheries committee. He can come in with total bravado and say that is all a load of rubbish and IFI can respond accordingly.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Fox can see how we find all this-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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-----earth-shatteringly astonishing and not even remotely credible. Did Mr. Fox have a look at the previous appearance of the IFI before the public accounts committee? He was not there himself, but before preparing for this, did he have a look at the transcript?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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He was here. He was present. I will not prolong this because my time is running out and Deputy Kenny has alluded to it. Mr. Fox knows who Ms Róisín Bradley is. Was she lying to the committee when she said, in reply to Alan Dillon's question about the date IFI established it had no insurance; "On 10 August, the day the accident occurred"?
Was she lying to the committee then?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Ms Bradley was incorrect, the former CEO was incorrect, and Mr. Fox, who knew nothing about this report and then somehow miraculously now is coming to the committee telling us about the report, and with all his bravado, is saying that all of this is a load of rubbish, and that he is on the credible side of this argument and they are on the non-credible side. Is that what Mr. Fox is saying?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I have one final question, and I thank the Cathaoirleach for indulging me with a bit of extra time here. The Department has made a clear finding against Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI. The IFI board has said it does not like that finding and has written back to the Department. How is that the end of the matter? Maybe the Department can assist me here. If a Department appoints an external investigator and makes a very clear finding following that protected disclosure against the entity being investigated, what is the consequence for the entity being investigated if it refutes that finding?
Ms Catherine McGinty:
I am not really sure to be honest. There is a protected disclosures unit within the Department that deals with those. My understanding is that the recommendations in the report are notified and it has the option of accepting them and notifying the Department of the corrective actions. If there is a non-acceptance of the recommendations, I am not exactly sure what happens in that case.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Fox aware what the consequence are to the board or to the IFI of not accepting a clear finding of an external investigator, as the IFI has done? Is he aware of what the consequence is to the board or to the IFI?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What is the remedy?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the extra time. I also thank the witnesses for staying and for engaging in the conversation. In my first contribution, I asked if anybody was aware of an issue that was reported in a Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, ruling of this year where a staff member was asked to chaperone another staff member's child to go down town and get an ice cream. Is it still the case or did the IFI make any phone calls about that while the committee was on a break?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is not enough. Was Mr. Fox the CEO on 18 March 2025, or acting CEO, or deputy CEO?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Ms Campion was. What role was Mr. Fox in ?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In March 2025.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The WRC published a report about a case that was taken by an individual against IFI on the 18 March 2025. Was the director of operations not aware of that report?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was the acting CEO not aware of that report at the time?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is remarkable that the IFI organisation at a senior leadership level would not be aware of a WRC ruling about the organisation.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Under oath, the complainant taking the case against the witnesses' organisation at the time makes a claim that she was asked on 27 July 2022, which was nine days after Mr. Fox's appointment in Galway-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No. That cannot be the crux that makes this make sense. There are not too many examples of a story like this where just because I said "Galway" now it makes sense.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The allegation was put under oath.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You did not make that request?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You did not make that request?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did you know it had happened?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When we talk about other WRC cases and issues of misconduct is this not a breach of IFI's child protection guidelines that a staff member is put in a position of extreme, potential, vulnerability?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was that staff member Garda vetted?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was the staff member Garda vetted?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So what happens if an allegation is made?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You were not there.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You did not go down town with them.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did you go down town with them?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So you were not there. The staff member was asked to do a duty outside of her core competencies and role, according to the WRC case, to mind somebody else's child. Is that not a breach of IFI's child protection policy?
Mr. Barry Fox:
First, Deputy, I do not see the relevance of this. That is the first thing I am going to raise. The second part is that the previous head of operations, unknown to me at the time until he had asked, asked would she take my son for a walk because he was in the car park in the car waiting for me to finish my meeting. She agreed to bring him for a walk as she was going down town. I do not see the relevance of it at all.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is it a breach of the organisation's policy to ask staff members to mind other staff members' children, staff who are not vetted and who are not safe against any allegations? This is a legitimate question. I will tell Mr. Fox the relevance of it. It is because we have seen a series of areas that have not gotten enough attention in terms of management, governance and oversight . We have seen areas that are extremely questionable with regard to judgment. You are saying this request did not come from you and that it came from the former director of operations. Did they not double check with you before your son left?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that not a breach of child protection guidelines or policies?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What about the staff member's comfort levels?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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By the director of operations-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I really do. As a youth worker for 20 years, I see a significant issue with someone being asked to do something, number one that they are not employed to do, number two where they are completely open to allegations, and number three with a whole power dynamic where she is being asked to do this by the head of operations, which she has said under oath. As to the extent to which she was comfortable doing this or not, we cannot suggest that she was comfortable doing this at all.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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She was not employed to do that and we have issues of governance that are systemic throughout this. What we have seen is, potentially, double standards being applied here. You raise your eyebrows.
Mr. Barry Fox:
I do raise my eyebrows, Deputy. I do not see double standards here. It was a very innocent thing where somebody was asked to take a person for a walk down town at lunchtime. The person took them for a walk down town at lunchtime. They came back to the office, and there was never an issue raised about it that I was aware of.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was raised at the WRC.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I offer my apologies that I missed a lot of the discussion. I had another commitment. I will just pick up on one or two issues. As a representative from Cork I am aware that the fish kill in the Blackwater river was raised earlier. Just to be clear, there is no detection of any cause of that fish kill.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a suspicion in relation to the cause of it? I appreciate there may not be evidence in terms of prosecution but does the IFI have some suspicion in relation to what actually caused it?
Mr. Barry Fox:
It could have came from a number of locations. Yes there are some people, and I think the public, who would have a general opinion on it. Obviously, as a regulatory authority with a requirement to enforce the regulations and the law, we would not be in a position to make an allegation against anybody.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking Mr. Fox to make an allegation; I am asking if Inland Fisheries Ireland has a suspicion in relation to the cause of it.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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You have no leads whatsoever.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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None whatsoever.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That does not instil much confidence in the general public in terms of IFI's role in such incidents.
Mr. Barry Fox:
As I have explained to the environment committee and to this committee previously, the nature of this type of discharge pollution is that it can happen a number of days before we see the impacts. Getting the offender can be difficult at times. We have about a 75% success rate in environmental prosecutions.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I think Mr. Fox will agree it was a catastrophic environmental-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and ecological disaster in terms of the 32,000 fish killed.
Can that happen again?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Has Inland Fisheries Ireland learned any lessons from it? Are there measures it can put in place to see if it can have better success in relation to such detections?
Mr. Barry Fox:
What it is currently being undertaken is that the Minister has directed for an independent review of that fish kill. The joint research committee that is assigned to Europe is doing an independent review of the process. It is going to provide recommendations. We are also in the middle of developing a national protocol with the other agencies that would be involved in these types of investigations and we will have that finalised once we receive the recommendations from the review. That will be published at the end of January and a new protocol will be in place nationally roughly around the same time.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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As Mr. Fox will appreciate, a complete failure of accountability would be the view in relation to this. This is something that caused such a catastrophic impact and there is not even a suspicion as to the causes. It is difficult to believe. I will park it there for now.
Regarding the legal cases that were dropped due to the powers of the officers involved, as I understand it, there are 50 to 60 cases and the estimated cost is about €240,000. Will Mr. Fox tell me what those costs are? Are they legal costs, lost fines, or what are they?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It does not include anything to do with fines that were not recouped as a result of the cases being dropped?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What kind of an estimated figure would we have in terms of potential fines that could have come out of those 61 cases?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Somewhere between €30,000 to €50,000 is potentially lost income as a result of that. That is in addition to the €240,000 legal fees. One case in particular was on the larger side. Will Mr. Fox provide a bit more detail on that?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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When it is described as larger, what does that mean? Why is it larger?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it in relation to a more serious incident, for example?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is. Can Mr. Fox give us more details? He does not want to identify the issue, obviously, but is it a serious breach? To what extent is-----
Mr. Barry Fox:
No. It turned out that there were three parties involved in the case. Two of them were deemed to have not have committed an offence; one had. As they were parties within the prosecution, it was still the three that were involved in the process until it closed out. Due to the delegation issue, we had to withdraw that case. There is now the issue of costs associated with it-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The costs are to be settled.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If we were to say the case was to proceed, is it a case that would potentially have a high fine, or high sanction, involved in it?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was on the severe end of the offence list, shall we say?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the overall issue of the powers and the fact that cases are withdrawn done and dusted? There are no further cases that potentially will be impacted or withdrawn. What period did it run from?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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March 2023 to June 2023.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why did it start in March 2023?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are cases prior to March 2023 in any jeopardy?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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So there will be no period prior to that involved.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few concluding questions. On an annual basis, how many protected disclosures would come in against IFI? Last year, for example, how many would Mr. Fox be aware of?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Not huge volumes, it has to be said. On foot of those protected disclosures, how many external reviews would be initiated annually and how many outcomes of those would come before IFI?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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They would be external reviews and the outcomes coming back to IFI.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Again, not huge numbers. Something as important as the external review that was commissioned by the former Minister, the results of which came back before the board to note back in February, obviously appeared on the agenda for that particular meeting. Correct me if I am wrong.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You would have done a report on the-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You had done that report at that stage.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Did you not think that was important information to bring to the committee before now?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So you, as acting CEO at that stage, carried out the report. It was not the body - ARC, is it? - that carried out-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was Ms Campion who carried out-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have been on PAC now for a number of years and I find this meeting the most extraordinary in terms of the lack of preparedness for it on such an important issue and the drip-feeding of very important information before the committee. Whether it is intentional or unintentional I am not quite sure, but I find it extraordinary that, as the last speaker, we now find out that you carried out that report in relation to the external review and the findings in that. Talk us through the process where two of the recommendations were accepted and one was being refuted?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Who had a role in that? That came back before the board, did it?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So it was not ARC. This was you. You brought that information back to the board.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That disputes what you, Mr. Fox, put on record here in terms of the board having no knowledge whatsoever of the findings of that external review and that it went straight to ARC.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Would you have been part of that process then? Were you involved when that came back to the board? Did you have sight of it?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I find this extraordinary. You might furnish us with a full note on that because it is an important piece of information and for it to be put before us here when only two members of the committee are here. That information should have been more forthcoming.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Fixed charge penalty notices were mentioned earlier on, and a fine of €150. How many fixed penalty notices were issued last year? Do we have that information?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What is the collection rate in terms of those notices?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, the value or percentage. Is it 100% collection in terms of notices?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the case that Mr. Fox does not have those figures here today?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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He might furnish them as to what the collection rate is for each of those years.
I want to turn to a final issue, that is, algae blooms and the impact they have on lakes across the State. The situation in Lough Neagh in the North has been widely aired; that environmental disaster that has unfolded up there. That was ten years in the making and there were systemic failures to address many of the warning signs over the previous ten years.
In my constituency of Wicklow, a number of lakes, including Blessington and Vartry, are hugely important lakes because they provide water not just for Wicklow but also large areas within Dublin. Two of those lakes have had what I can only describe as fairly considerable and serious algae blooms over the past number of years. What role or responsibility does IFI have in the monitoring of algae blooms? What preventative action has been taken or is being taken, and not just in terms of those two, because I know there are other very serious areas of concern also?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that solely the role of the EPA? IFI has no role whatsoever even though it does impact on fish.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is IFI aware of any fish killed as a result of algae blooms in any of our water courses or lakes?
Dr. Fiona Kelly:
That is where the environmental enforcement investigation team comes in. It will try to investigate that. It is very difficult to identify the source of nutrient enrichment in lakes because it is probably overland flow from agriculture and other sources, such as wastewater treatment plants. We very rarely get a case-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of IFI's remit, it is obviously to protect the environment or fish. Do the witnesses think its remit should include the monitoring and protection of our lakes? It is a serious issue. I see it playing out in my own constituency, as I alluded to there. Do our witnesses think that remit is expansive enough to address what is a growing and very serious issue of concern?
Mr. Barry Fox:
We have quite a narrow role in regards to water quality enforcement, and we are working with the Department to expand that. We have put a number of recommendations to the Department as to what we would like to progress. The Cathaoirleach is right. To answer his question, there is an opportunity for us to be more involved. The monitoring and classification of water bodies, however, will remain a matter for the EPA.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have one concluding question and it relates to a fish kill on the Aughrim river, again in Wicklow. It was July of last year, in 2024, when there was a fairly considerable kill of fish. Were any prosecutions taken as a result of that? Do we know the cause of that particular fish kill?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes. It was a wood treatment facility on the banks of the Aughrim river. I actually visited that fish kill as the head of operations at the time. That is a perfect example of where the IFI cannot prosecute. We were pretty certain of where the discharge came from, because white diffuse came down through the river bank and because it was highly toxic, it killed a significant amount of fish in a stretch. On further investigation with the EPA, the facility owners confirmed they had a discharge from that location in breach of their EPA licence. The EPA took the prosecution with the support of the IFI.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was that a successful prosecution?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Why was it the EPA that prosecuted and not IFI?
Mr. Barry Fox:
It occurred within its licensed site. It was authorised to take that prosecution because IFI could not detect a discharge. We have to find a live discharge or be able to tie that discharge right back to the pipe that it comes out of. Without that evidence we will not be able to progress to a successful outcome.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In that particular case, correct me if I am wrong, there was a final €5,000 fine imposed.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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To go back to the algae bloom, the witnesses said they put forward a number of recommendations to the Department in areas they think would strengthen the work, role and remit of IFI as an organisation, given considerable issues in terms of governance and legacy and all of that, while still having a hugely important and significant role to play in terms of our environment, fish and so on. The IFI might furnish us with what they put forward to the Department on the remit of IFI, and the areas they think should be looked at.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fox might furnish it to the committee.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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To echo what the Cathaoirleach said, I really feel that the witnesses’ testimony today and how they interacted with some of our lines of questioning brings into question the credibility of a lot of what we have heard here today. I do not think it has done anything to restore confidence in the organisation. I find it really troubling to be honest how the witnesses have responded to some questions here. I am new as a TD but I have not seen it before.
On the documents, can we get a copy of the Department's external investigation that was provided to Ms Campion and then to the board and the ARC? I am referring to the external investigation into the protected disclosure of the driver of the uninsured vehicle. Can we get a copy of that document?
Can we also get a copy of all minutes at a board or a sub-committee board level that dealt with or addressed this issue, along with any documents that were compiled in respect of this, either by the witnesses or whoever, in respect of the report that was made that refutes the clear findings in the external report? Can they furnish those documents to this committee?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have one quick question and a yes-no answer will suffice. Did the witnesses get media training before they came before us today?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Maybe that should be reassessed, because certainly it has been difficult trying to extrapolate some information.
That concludes our engagement with Inland Fisheries Ireland. I thank the deputy chief executive officer and his officials for attending. I also thank the officials from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment and the C and AG for their attendance once again. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information? Agreed.
The next PAC meeting is scheduled for 9:30 a.m. on Thursday 11 December, when the committee will engage with the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.