Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 27 November 2025
Public Accounts Committee
Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 13 - Office of Public Works
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 5 - Development of a Proposed National Science Centre
Chapter 6 - The OPW's Management of Office Accommodation
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. John Conlon, Chairman of the Office of Public Works, OPW, to discuss its appropriation accounts for 2024. He is joined by the following officials from the OPW: Ms Kathryn Whyte, head of organisational capability and corporate services; Mr. Conor Sreenan, State architect and the principal architect; Ms Cathleen Morrison, head of estate management; Ms. Rosemary Collier, head of heritage services and capital works delivery; Mr. Jim Casey, head of flood risk management; and Mr. Robert Mooney, head of planning and climate adaptation.
We are also joined by the following officials from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, who are attending in a representative capacity; Mr. Fionn Jenkinson, principal officer and Mr. Andrew Gray, assistant principal officer. They are welcome.
Finally, we are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including Mr. Seamus McCarthy, Comptroller and Auditor General who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms. Maria Reck, audit manager.
For the witnesses who are attending today, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references that may be made to other persons in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. The 2024 appropriation account for Vote 13 - Office of Public Works records gross expenditure of €694.5 million. Appropriations-in-aid of the Vote amounted to €31.7 million. The surplus on the Vote at the year-end was €12.4 million which was surrendered back to the Exchequer.
The account is presented under two programme headings. Just under €563 million, or 81% of the total, was spent on the estate management programme and almost €132 million, or 19% of the total, was spent on the flood risk management programme.
The OPW provides office and other types of accommodation to other central government Departments and offices, using a combination of leased and State-owned property. The associated costs are a direct charge on the estate management programme. This includes rent payments totalling €111.2 million; property maintenance and supply payments of almost €83 million and public-private partnership unitary payments amounting to just under €22 million.
Costs associated with the OPW’s portfolio of heritage properties amounted to €54.5 million in 2024.
In parallel with routine management of its property portfolio, the OPW manages a large programme of new capital works, substantial building alterations and extensions. Under subhead B6, new works, alterations and additions, the OPW incurred expenditure of €141 million in 2024.
Separate from the building activity charged to Vote 13, the OPW also acts on an agency basis on behalf of other Departments and agencies. This mainly relates to the carrying out of major capital works and the leasing of accommodation. The expenditure associated with this agency activity is reflected in the respective appropriation accounts of the client Departments and agencies. As indicated in note 2.15, expenditure incurred by the OPW on an agency basis, and not reflected in Vote 13, amounted to €254 million in 2024.
I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the appropriation account but drew attention to two matters disclosed by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control: procurements to the value of €16.3 million in 2024 that were not compliant with public procurement rules and control issues in relation to projects below €500,000.
Chapter 5 of my report on the accounts of the public services for 2024 reviews the development of a proposed national science centre, which has resulted in a contingent liability of €70.4 million disclosed in the appropriation account of Vote 13 The project originally commenced in 2003 as a perceived no-cost initiative to develop the science centre museum as part of a proposed major mixed-use development at Heuston Gate in Dublin. The initial agreement between the OPW and the centre’s promoters was for provision of a building of 4,645 sq. m, with the promoters taking responsibility for the fit-out and exhibits, and the recurrent operating costs. The property development did not proceed as originally envisaged.
In 2013, the OPW and the promoters entered a new agreement committing the OPW to provide a building of 9,580 sq. m at Earlsfort Terrace - more than double the original size and in a more valuable and sensitive location. Various cost estimates for the State’s liability in respect of the museum were provided at different stages in the development. By May 2024, the construction cost to be borne by the State stood at an estimated €70.4 million with the potential for further increases. To date, the project has cost the Exchequer approximately €4.27 million in legal expenses, State funding provided to the operator, and site preparation costs at both the Heuston Gate and Earlsfort Terrace locations. The examination found that the proposed science centre project has never been evaluated or appraised in accordance with the public spending code or other applicable capital expenditure guidelines. Furthermore, we found that as no formal sponsoring agency or sanctioning authority has been appointed for the project, the key controls designed to safeguard the Exchequer were not applied in the management of the science centre project. This ultimately led to a premature commitment of Exchequer resources. The key learnings of the examination focused on the need for robust project governance and safeguards to prevent and manage project scope drift and cost overruns. These learnings were accepted by the Accounting Officer.
Chapter 6 of my report on the accounts of the public services for 2024 examines the OPW’s management of office accommodation. The chapter reviews three main aspects: the sufficiency and appropriateness of property data collected, the extent of analysis undertaken to inform property decisions and the effect of the shift towards remote working on client requirements for office space.
In relation to data held by the OPW, the examination found, based on a sample of properties examined, that there are material errors and inconsistencies in respect of its property database. At some of the locations visited by the examination team, it was not possible to reconcile the information on the database with buildings on the ground. Separately, it was found that buildings with energy ratings below the target A3 level are still being acquired by the OPW, contrary to policy.
Protracted delays in fitting out premises for occupation led to substantial rental payments for buildings that were unoccupied. In the case of the Distillers Building in Dublin 7, the lease commenced in July 2022 with an initial rent-free period of nearly two years. However, the premises remained vacant up to the time the report was being completed, at a rent cost of €12 million plus VAT.
The report sets out five recommendations, including initiatives by the OPW to improve the quality of the data in its property database, to better document its intentions as regards energy upgrading for new acquisitions and to commit to reporting publicly on the utilisation of its office accommodation portfolio. In relation to leased office accommodation, it was noted that the OPW should formally record decisions made on whether to avail of lease break opportunities and should document any significant departures from property-related circulars in force.
The Accounting Officer has accepted the recommendations, and indicated timelines for their implementation.
Mr. John Conlon:
I thank the committee for the invitation to discuss the 2024 appropriation account on the relevant chapters in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his office for their work in auditing the appropriation account, in addition to their work on the two chapters, which contain valuable insights and learnings for us. I am joined today by members of the OPW management board, who have responsibility for areas across the wide-ranging remit of the OPW.
The Comptroller and Auditor General has outlined the main areas of expenditure in our Vote. I will briefly comment on some of the notable examples of delivery across the OPW programmes. Our purpose is to protect communities from flood risk, manage the State's property portfolio, and safeguard, promote and maintain our natural and built heritage. The OPW has a multidisciplinary workforce of approximately 2,500 staff dispersed across some 140 sites. We employ staff across diverse roles such as engineers, general operatives, carpenters, horticulturalists, architects and quantity surveyors, as well as a wide range of roles across the general administrative grades. In the course of their varied work, our staff live our values of expertise, respect, excellence, collaboration and sustainability.
We lead Ireland's flood risk management and have delivered 56 major flood schemes, providing protection to almost 14,000 homes and businesses and an economic benefit to the State, with damage avoided estimated at around €2 billion. Major flood relief schemes are complex, multi-stage projects that rely on extensive surveys, environmental assessments and detailed design work to understand flood risks and develop effective solutions. Improving efficiency and timelines for delivery is our key priority, in line with the goals of the Department of public expenditure's accelerating infrastructure taskforce.
There are more than 100 schemes at various stages of implementation, with a capital allocation of €715 million over the period to 2030. We spent over €131 million on the flood risk management programme in 2024. Our teams work from depots across the country to deliver on flood relief projects, with five more flood relief schemes reaching construction or implementation in 2024. This brings the total number of flood relief schemes currently at construction to 11, in Athlone, Crossmolina, Glashaboy, King’s Island, the Morell river, Morrison's Island, the Poddle, the River Wad, Springfield, Templemore and Whitechurch. Upon completion, these schemes will collectively protect a further 2,900 properties. The estate management expenditure during 2024 was €563 million. At year-end, our portfolio included 531 buildings, 266 of which were State-owned, covering a floor area of 866,000 sq. m, with some 60% of total floor area being State-owned.
As a result of this expenditure in 2024, substantial progress was made on a number of key building projects, including the Rosslare Europort project, the Government data centre in Backweston and the construction of a new office block at Leeson Lane, Dublin 2 to provide flexible, purpose-built, value-for-money, energy-efficient and space-efficient accommodation for up to 360 staff. We also handed over Tom Johnson House, an exemplar deep refurbishment project financed by the national recovery and resilience plan in support of our climate action obligations, in 2024. This is occupied by the Department of climate and energy.
The OPW provides a service for statutory maintenance contracts and building fabric in more than 2,200 properties. In 2024, a total of €83 million was spent on the provision of maintenance in buildings occupied by Government Departments and certain State agencies. We maintain and operate 780 important national monument properties across the country, with 32 historic properties, balancing the protection of heritage assets with increased, more interactive and inclusive access for visitors. In 2024, our heritage sites performed well, with just over 14 million visitors. That good performance is continuing into this year.
Significant projects delivered in 2024 included Rockfleet Castle in County Mayo, the seminar room at the National Library and ongoing restoration works at the Four Courts. During 2024, heritage sites across the country participated in many local and national festivals, including National Heritage Week, Seachtain na Gaeilge, the Five Lamps Festival and the Discover Derrynane festival. These make a major contribution to local economies.
The proposal to develop a national children's science centre dates to the early 2000s, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said, on foot of a then programme for Government commitment, with sponsorship and financial support for the project driven through the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, with financial support also provided by the then Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. The role of the Office of Public Works was that of a contracting authority to design and oversee the construction of a facility to be located at the Heuston Gate development. Our role in this respect was similar to an undertaking of capital projects as a contracting authority for client bodies, whereby funding issues from the relevant Votes for these client bodies. As Chairman of the OPW, I have met and advised representatives of the children's science centre company. While I fully accept that there is a binding arbitration award on the OPW, on behalf of the State, the fact remains that there is no sponsoring authority to fund the development of the project. The Vote for the OPW provides capital allocations for flood risk management and OPW estate management, and does not provide capital funding for projects outside of these defined expenditure programmes. The OPW, as a contracting authority in this case, does not provide funding for the capital works development for the science centre project.
In addition to identifying a sponsoring authority, in line with the infrastructure guidelines, the issue of the source and quantum of ongoing operational funding required for the science centre requires examination and evaluation by a sponsoring Department. I share the key learnings identified in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, namely that the roles and responsibilities of project sponsor and contracting authority should have been clearly defined from the outset. More robust project governance, with a clearly identified project sponsor, would have provided safeguards in respect of the other clear learnings from this project and around the scope of this project, in addition to the appropriate oversight of costs.
The OPW estate portfolio generates an immense amount of property-related data that informs the management of the estate. A number of data anomalies were noted in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on our estate management and a project is already under way to correct this and to validate existing information in our property database. There have been no financial implications for the State associated with these data anomalies. On foot of the audit's recommendations, the OPW is now also formally documenting decision-making in relation to lease breaks in rental properties, and energy rating standard exemptions in our buildings. This work forms part of a wider programme to continuously improve how we manage our property portfolio transparently. The timescale for the delivery of office accommodation construction projects and fit-out costs is dependent on several variables. Purpose-built new accommodation can take up to five years, subject to the scale and complexity of the project. The acquisition and fit-out of new premises such as a lease can typically take up to three years.
Facilitating multiple clients in appropriate leased buildings in a challenging environment results in delays achieving full occupation. For instance, the Distillers Building and Bishop’s Square projects highlighted in the report were both impacted by the pandemic and supply chain disruption, as well as factors including expansion of the base build by the landlord, and change of ownership during the project. However, these projects have allowed the OPW to exit multiple costly leases in older, poor-quality premises to consolidate staff in modern energy-efficient buildings. The Distillers Building is now being occupied and will shortly be fully occupied.
We continue to review and improve our governance processes. For example, new guidance on capital works projects with an estimated value of less than €500,000 was implemented earlier this year. I would like to reiterate our ongoing commitment to deliver on the Government's commitments, on a value for money basis, under the next phase of the national development plan. This delivery is enabled by the hard work and commitment of our staff, who I would like to acknowledge as consistently delivering across our broad remit of responsibility. Every day, they serve both the State and communities nationwide through the provision of vital flood protection measures and the management of our extensive property portfolio.
During 2024, our teams managed multiple capital projects, including the recently completed €230 million Rosslare Europort terminal, which was delivered on time and on budget. This was one of the biggest capital infrastructure projects of its kind delivered in Ireland. Our heritage team combines conservation expertise with the delivery of excellent visitor experiences. Their work preserves and presents Ireland’s built and natural heritage, enabling regional tourism to improve. These multidisciplinary teams, which operate across the OPW, are united by their professionalism, dedication and strong sense of purpose, which I would like to acknowledge and thank them for.
I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members. I welcome their questions. I might ask some of my managerial colleagues to assist with answers where such answers will help the discussion.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Conlon. Just to note, we will suspend the meeting for ten to 15 minutes at 12 noon and we will resume shortly afterwards. We now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy McGrath, who has 15 minutes. All other members have ten minutes. I call Deputy McGrath.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone from the OPW for being with us here this morning and for sending on documents in advance of the meeting. Obviously, my time is limited so I will get straight to it. From the outset, I want to go to the national science centre project and the relationship with the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited. I am not going to go back over the whole project. We know it goes back to 2003 at the time of the Heuston Gate site and proposal. Obviously, there were issues there around governance, the lack of due procedure and the fact that the advice of the Chief State Solicitor's Office in relation to a clause was not agreed to. I suspect no one here today was involved in any of that back 22 years ago. Equally, the approval of the Minister of Finance was not sought despite it being recommended and so on. Obviously, arbitration was opened up in 2013 and, as a result of that, there was an agreement to provide a space at the Earlsfort estate which is still occupied by the museum charity. Is that correct?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What size of an area is that? Give us a sense of the kind of square meterage we are talking about.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, it is a large space and the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited is occupying it since 2013. Is that correct?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. That is what I mean. To clarify, what area of space is it occupying?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the square area of those offices?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Those offices are rent free.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Does Mr. Conlon have an estimated cost of the rent? As in, what would be the market value of that rent if that space were to be utilised or commercially rented out?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Back in 2013, it was estimated that the overall project cost would be in the region of €13 million. Is that correct?
Mr. John Conlon:
There were figures done at that stage which are outlined in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. To be very frank, I cannot stand over those figures. No great detail was provided with them and earlier costings were done which were more than double those figures. The current costings now are in the region of €70 million. I cannot stand over that figure of €13 million.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What I am getting at is that there was no cost-benefit analysis or proper capital appraisal done at that time but yet there was an agreement entered into without that proper procedure being followed.
Mr. John Conlon:
The agreement that was entered into arose from the legal obligation, Deputy. It arose in response to the arbitration process that was commenced and subsequently settled. There was quite a short timeframe for that. I fully agree with what was set out in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. The implication of the Deputy's question is that there should have been proper value for money assessments done, but they should have been done by a sponsoring authority rather than the contracting authority. I do accept that we entered into that arbitration-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ultimately, it is the OPW that is on the hook.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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You would argue that that goes back to the root cause of the initial 2003 agreement and that obligations were entered into that are continuing to be placed at the feet of the OPW, effectively.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There were findings from the arbitration process in 2022 that the OPW was to proceed to seek planning permission and do some preselection in terms of contractors. Has any of that been done?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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At this stage, if this project is to be progressed, Mr. Conlon’s best estimate is somewhere north of €70 million.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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At this point in time, we have absolutely no timeline in terms of this project progressing. We have no certainty that it will progress. Where does Mr. Conlon see it overall as a project?
Mr. John Conlon:
It is a difficult question to answer, to be frank. We have the interim award from the arbitration process, which is effectively a final award, dating from 2022. The arbitration process will probably be finalised over the next number of weeks which will then give a timeline for development. There will be a significant issue of funding for this project. No Department sought funding for it in the recent NDP discussions. It is not a priority for any of the sponsoring Departments previously involved in this. That remains a fundamental issue.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it possible it may never proceed?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Turning to the costs incurred to date in relation to this project, which may or may not ever happen, it has been estimated that over €4 million has been spent in various costs, including surveys, legal costs, site works, consultants and statutory applications. Is that figure broadly correct?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of legal costs so far, we know the legal costs relating to 2013, but the costs have yet to be settled for 2022.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is €550,000 in relation to the process in 2013. Will it be of a similar order for 2022?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Broadly speaking, we are looking at €1 million in legal costs between two arbitration processes incurred by the OPW in relation to this project.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a staggering amount of money in legal costs. The OPW has been in the headlights a number of times regarding its projects, such as the bike shelter and so on. When it comes to trying to build public trust in how we spend public money, this is yet another example that erodes public trust. Does Mr. Conlon agree with that?
Mr. John Conlon:
I set out very candidly my views on this in the views of the Accounting Officer in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. This has been going on now for 22-odd years. I find it difficult to explain, for example, why legal advice was not followed in the early 2000s. I am quite frank on that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the fact that there is a private entity providing the centre question the viability of this project?
Mr. John Conlon:
As I have indicated in my comments, there is a question on the ongoing operation and cost of this project if it were to be built and who would fund that. Obviously, the promoter will generate own-resource income, but it is not clear to me whether that income would also require State subvention. That is an issue that should be assessed and determined by whoever sponsors this project before any go-ahead is given to it.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is not personal to anyone here because it goes back many years, but there has been a catalogue of mismanagement, failed governance, failed oversight and a failure to follow proper procedures in relation to this project. It is a running sore. We do not know if the project will ever reach fruition. There is an estimated potential cost of more than €70 million, with more than €4 million already incurred and growing. It is an absolute unmitigated disaster.
Again, this is not personal to anyone here because I know it goes back to the early 2000s, but in terms of trying to build public trust in how money is spent this certainly does enormous damage. I will move on at this stage to other-----
Mr. John Conlon:
As I said, I have indicated my views on that as Accounting Officer and I am not disagreeing with the Deputy, but I would make one point on the north wing of Earlsfort Terrace. It represents about 60% of the construction budget of €70 million for any project that would be done. If that not were to be used for a science centre, we would find alternative uses for that. It would be an ideal cultural space, for example. There are alternatives that would abate some of the concerns the Deputy has just addressed.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That goes back to the point about the opportunity cost and what could be accommodated.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.
I need to move to some other items. Flooding is obviously one of the OPW's key roles. There was an underspend in 2024 of €7.8 million. The officials will appreciate how communities out there which are at risk of flooding might see this. Ballinhassig in County Cork is an example. It has flooded a number of times over the past 20 years. When people there see there is an underspend by the OPW on flood management, it is difficult for such communities to accept.
Mr. John Conlon:
I take the Deputy's point. I will ask my colleague Mr. Casey to come in in a moment. In 2024, there was a slight underspend, mainly related to timing issues. The Minister and I were at the finance and public expenditure committee yesterday seeking a Supplementary Estimate, so we have slightly overspent this year. We sought an extra €5 million this year and we have a higher allocation next year, so we are ramping up in that space.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conlon is saying it is a timing issue, largely speaking, and the OPW is overspending this year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, we will leave it at that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I turn to the measured term maintenance contract, as highlighted, from 2018 to 2022. Originally estimated to cost €20 million, it has cost €125 million. This is one contractor, is it?
Mr. John Conlon:
It is two contractors. One is for north Dublin and one for south Dublin. This has been rehearsed in previous PAC hearings. The main reason for that overspend is we dedicated some of the resources in that contract to the Brexit works in Dublin Port. There was, as the Deputy can understand, an immediacy to getting those works done and we used that contract to provide contracting services for the project.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It became a very different contract, effectively, from the one that was entered into.
Mr. John Conlon:
Because it was procured competitively and we were getting a good price for it, we felt at the time, given the urgency of proceeding with the Brexit works in Dublin Port, the most efficacious way of proceeding with that in the manner we had to, given the time commitments, was to use that project.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conlon believes all the works carried out there provided value for money-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and everything was above board in terms of the contract.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will turn to a number of different issues I picked up in the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. There was a landlord paid €373,000 mistakenly. That landlord no longer owned the property. That certainly would sound alarm bells in terms of procedures and control measures in place in the organisation. Would Mr. Conlon like to comment on that briefly?
Mr. John Conlon:
I would. In late 2024, a rent payment of approximately €373,000 for a property leased by the OPW was sent in error to the previous landlord. That arose because of the change of ownership of the property at that time. The new landlord's details were not fully updated because of the change of ownership.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am really caught for time here but are procedures in place to ensure this will not happen again?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was refunded fully. Similarly, there was a mistake in payroll and €249,000 was overpaid, I understand, with recovery mechanisms in place for €69,000 of that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will all of that overpayment be repaid?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Conlon is confident of that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will turn briefly to the buildings that are in lease agreements and are unoccupied for large periods. Take the Distillers Building for example. From July 2022 to March 2024, €12 million was paid in rent. Mr. Conlon said earlier the building is now partially occupied.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about the delay from 2022? Why did it take so long? We were paying rent over that period to the value of €12 million. Mr. Conlon will understand how the management of that raises serious concerns.
Mr. John Conlon:
It does, and I fully accept the concerns identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General. There are a number of reasons, including the pandemic which delayed the progression of that contract. Some of the changes within the building took time to resolve. From time to time, you get rent-free zones within which the work was done but the delays were caused by factors that, frankly, were hard to control.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will wrap up, Chair.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is not the only example. There is the building at Bishop's Square. Since May 2019, €7.9 million has been paid and I believe it has only recently been occupied, if it is occupied.
Mr. John Conlon:
We have had the Bishop's Square building for quite a number of years and it has been occupied by a number of Civil Service Departments, including Revenue, the Department of Social Protection and the Department of justice. Over the years, people have moved in and out. With that building, there were landlord changes that did not help in our progression of the fit-out, which took some time to resolve. That was also delayed over the period to 2022 by supply chain issues and the Covid pandemic - something we found hard to control, to be very frank.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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My time is up. I thank Mr. Conlon for his answers.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Our next questioner is Deputy Boland.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The officials are very welcome. I will briefly touch on the science museum. As a lawyer, I was absolutely aghast at how this has been managed over the last 20 years. It was 20 years ago, so I am not going to focus on the original instructions, but I wanted to understand what the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited currently does. What is its raison d'être?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does it currently provide anything?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Conlon know how it is funded and how the wages are paid? I understand it has a number of permanent workers.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On what legal basis does it occupy this 9,000 sq. ft. building?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why is there no one else in the complex?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On what legal basis does it occupy this building?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is it a tenant, under licence or what is its legal basis of occupancy?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What about being able to terminate that licence? It pays no rent and nothing towards insurance. It pays nothing to the State for occupying this building for 11 years.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There are no tenancy rights accruing.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I think it would be important to check it.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It would be good to get some clarity.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
My understanding is that the clause in the 2013 settlement agreement was to provide the company with access to the property that was to be developed as the museum, which to me sounds like a different kind of provision. The concern would be that there is no landlord and tenant relationship formally in place.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Access to the property sounds very different to giving it an office space for 14 years rent-free, with no insurance and no contribution to the State.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Rent-free for 14 years, with no insurance and no contribution.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General is saying his interpretation is slightly different. Anyway-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, but again for clarity, two offices are currently occupied but the remainder of that space remains unoccupied. It is larger than two offices. It is 9,000 sq. ft.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Will you give me my time back, Chair?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On the projected €70 million, I note €46.5 million is for construction. What does the other €30 million relate to?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Very briefly, please.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The VAT on professional fees cannot be at €30 million.
Mr. Conor Sreenan:
The question relates to the total project costs estimate of €70 million. That is a gross cost estimate. That is based on the most sufficient detail we have with respect to the planning permission and the design elements. It includes all of the development costs. So, it includes contingency, inflation assumptions, all of the levies we will be obliged to pay. It includes all other related costs to develop the project.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It seems like an extraordinary figure. To put that into context-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----that is 60 Dublin buses.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It may be helpful to get clarity from the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Do we have an estimate as to what the site value is?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the property portfolio management, the lack of data around all of the assets is really quite staggering. It is a key part of the OPW's role to make sure it knows what it is supposed to be in control of on behalf of the State. I find that quite staggering. I also find staggering the fact that the occupancy rate, which was admitted to in the briefing, averages at 30% to 45% occupancy. In terms of the opportunity costs and the costs in relation to leases that were paid to private landlords, does the OPW have an estimate how much on an annual basis the State is paying for not occupying property?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am pretty sure Mr. Conlon's briefing says 30% to 45% occupancy.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Sreenan wants to come in on that, Deputy Boland.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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This is on the-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That can be managed. The private sector manages that. It reduces its floor space on the basis of what is being occupied, but we seem to be doing the opposite. We seem to be taking more and more office space, with no one sitting in it. With hot-desking, etc., there are ways to actually save money rather than continue to spend it, which is what we seem to be doing.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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You must have the data. You have to know what square footage you are talking with all of the different offices.
Mr. John Conlon:
We have more data on this that we can provide in relation to occupancy and the wide range of buildings we have, which are occupied by a wide range of different types of operations and Civil Service and State agencies. Some are higher than that 30% to 45%. We encourage higher occupancy because we want to compress our portfolio to have more numbers in it. That is something we continuously work on with our client Departments and we have undertaken to do more work through the Civil Service management board to make sure those rates increase.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is essential, however, that the OPW has the data and knows how much floor space is in what building.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We are committed to do that and we will be working with our Government colleagues to get that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It should include all key terms such as what the rent is, who the landlord is, what the break option is, when the break option is. I am not sure if this is agreed with the Department of public expenditure and reform but I noticed that the OPW does not necessarily comply with that Department's Circular 17/2016. Is that actually signed off by the Department of public expenditure and reform?
Mr. John Conlon:
We work with the Department of public expenditure and reform on that. To make a point on lease breaks, I think it was pointed out by the Comptroller and Auditor General that there were 62 leases with break clauses that could have been activated during the period 2022 to 2024. None were activated but we have ongoing engagements with the clients for these accommodation requirements and, if there is not suitable alternative available accommodation within the portfolio, we continue with the lease. Sometimes, it is more advantageous to not have the lease break, because we can continue with the existing rents. We do it on a case-by-case basis. I fully admit that it is a failure that we do not record that properly but we do it on a day-by-day basis. We work with clients when we do come up to lease breaks.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Take for example Trinity Point. That is a building that was purchased. It has a floor area recorded at 0 sq.m. The first floor was unoccupied at the time of the Comptroller and Auditor General's inspection. The third floor was unoccupied. That is a phenomenal amount to spend on a property to have two whole floors unoccupied and your database saying you have zero square meters of a building.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I should hope so. In terms of the break clauses, take Bloom House. Why did the OPW not act on the correspondence notifying it that the tenant occupying it was looking to break the lease?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
We continually engage with our clients in relation to their requirements. We did engage with the clients in this particular instance. There were two clients in that building. One had a requirement for additional space. We were looking at the building as a whole and felt we could accommodate the expanded requirements of both clients within that building.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is the occupancy of it now?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is it roughly?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many floors?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many floors does Ms Morrison think are occupied?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is it at 40% or 45% now?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How long ago did the other client leave?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
The other client has not left. It is just consolidating. There are still two clients in the building. For the first time, under Circular 1/2025, which was published by the Department of public expenditure and reform earlier this year, our client Departments are obliged to report into the OPW on their utilisation of space to collect that data.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why is that only happening now?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The OPW did not think of doing it.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Morrison saying that the 2013 circular did not require notification of occupancy?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
It did not require clients to report to the OPW on their day-to-day utilisation of space. This one does and there is a digital form now available to our clients online and they have to return that to us by the end of January 2026. We have agreed with the Comptroller and Auditor General's recommendation that, once that data is consistent and mature because it will need some refinement, we have committed to making that data publicly available by 2027.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thank witnesses for the presentation. To return to the measured term maintenance contracts, in simple terms this is effectively the outsourcing of the maintenance of public buildings to private companies. Is that a fair description of what we are paying for?
Mr. John Conlon:
We use contractors all over the country for building purposes and maintenance purposes. We do not have the workforce to do all the work ourselves. We find it more efficacious and effective to contract a lot of work out. We can scale up or scale down as need arises. We have regional contracts to do building works around the country and maintenance. This is a Dublin-focused contract. As the Deputy knows, we have a lot of buildings in Dublin which require constant intervention and constant maintenance. We need to be able to react quickly and scaling up and down with contractors is a effective way to do it.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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On the October 2018 contract, Mr. Conlon said there was two contractors involved. Is that two contracts, or one contract between them?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Do they tender separately for the two?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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How many companies tendered for the contracts?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Three companies tendered for two contracts.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Did all three apply for the two?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It has been publicly reported that the north Dublin one at that time was PJ Hegarty, and in south Dublin, it was Sensori.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Mr. Conlon was asked earlier about the fact it had an anticipated value of €20 million and ended up with expenditure of over €125 million. Mr. Conlon said that, effectively, this is accounted for by the extra expenditure due to Brexit, in particular at Dublin Port.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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How much was the expenditure related to Brexit?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Previously, it was said that it was €71 million. Would that be accurate?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Okay. If we strip out the €71 million or €75 million, whichever it was, we still have expenditure of €50 million in a contract that was due to be €20 million. Does Mr. Conlon not accept there is still a problem there?
Mr. John Conlon:
I accept that we overspent on that contract, which is why we subsequently re-tendered in 2022, and we will now be tendering again. I was not the Chairman at the time. The level set at €20 million was probably too low for the volume of work that was coming at us. We should have assessed that to be a higher amount.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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That was then fixed for the next contract.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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For the next contract, which I think commenced in May 2022, there was an anticipated value of €40 million but the total expenditure was €50 million. Once more, we anticipated a certain value and we ended up spending significantly more.
Mr. John Conlon:
This is a reactive contract. We react to requested works on a wide range of buildings across the country. That is sometimes hard to assess in advance, which is why it came in slightly above. It is also why we are now re-tendering. We will be putting in higher values with a better assessment of the works that we think will come at us over the next number of years. A lot of the buildings in Dublin are very old, and they can sometimes be more expensive.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes, but that is not new information. When the OPW put out the tender back in October 2018, it knew how old the buildings were. The same goes for May 2022 and more recently. They seem to be very lucrative contracts for the companies.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Does Mr. Conlon know how many companies have tendered for the most recent contract?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Is that for one or two? Is it north Dublin and south Dublin?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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So five for two and, again, Mr. Conlon thinks all five would have tendered for both.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Has that contract been signed or awarded yet?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It is ongoing. I will move on to the leases. Maybe I am naïve. I am certainly surprised by how many public buildings we are leasing and the expenditure on that. It is fair to say that half of all public buildings are leased rather than owned by the State, and about 40% of square footage is leased rather than owned. What is the total annual cost of that?
Mr. John Conlon:
I will have to double-check the annual cost. I will get that for the Deputy. Leasing gives us flexibility in terms of accommodating agencies and Departments. Our long-term goal would be to increase the number of State-owned properties but that is subject to getting the funding to do that through the NDP. For example, this year, we are buying a building in Dublin 1. We are just completing the contract, which is in the region of €24 million. That will give us a payback in lease foregone of eight years. We are trying to increase the square footage of State-owned buildings over leased buildings. That is a good example of where we go into the market to buy when we see good opportunities like that.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The OPW is trying to increase the percentage that is State-owned rather than leased, which clearly makes more sense.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Over the past 20 years, what has been the trend? Has the percentage that is State-owned increased or decreased?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I would be very surprised if it is not the case that we are leasing more now as a percentage than we were 20 years ago.
Mr. John Conlon:
The Civil Service and the Government in general have grown quite fast in the last number of years. We sometimes have to react to that demand. We get demands from new agencies that are set up and Government Departments that are expanding. We sometimes have to react very quickly, and a lease may be a better way of reacting. I would like to have a stock of Government buildings to put people into, but I do not have that. Leases are a fact of life in terms of reacting to the demands that are put on us to accommodate staff.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
From memory, when the crash happened and there was a restriction, there was an embargo on the purchase of buildings. Any property that was acquired had to be acquired under lease. I suspect the numbers would have gone up in terms of leased property, but I do not have the detail.
The figure for rent is about €111 million. That would be rent and service charges, and is VAT-inclusive.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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In terms of reacting quickly, when was the lease first signed on the Distillers building?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Is the building occupied?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It has been over three years from the start of the lease to occupying it.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yet the OPW is making the case that leasing is about moving swiftly.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I think the Distillers building is the second most expensive building that we are leasing. We are spending €10 million a year, and we are committed to spending €220 million on leasing it up to July 2047. However, the assessment is that this is the best value for money we can get.
Mr. John Conlon:
Again, to go back to the point I made on the lack of capital funding to buy, we do enter long-term leases. These are modern, purpose-built, effective buildings from a climate perspective. This is a very large building that will accommodate up to 1,500 Civil Service and Government employees. We are getting out of less effective leases, so it provides value on that basis. It meets all the requirements that we need to meet in terms of having modern, effective, climate-friendly, energy-efficient buildings.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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If that is the approach, why did the OPW agree to lease Bishop’s Square with a base assessment of a B3 rating, when the basic position is that the State should not be renting buildings that are less than A3?
Mr. John Conlon:
We sometimes have to accommodate civil servants in the Dublin 2 area in general. The lack of availability of A3 buildings is an issue. We sometimes have to make an assessment regarding buildings with a BER rating of less than A3, given the lack of availability of buildings that might have better energy efficiency. On that basis, we made the decision to occupy Bishop's Square.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Will we do work to bring that BER rating up, or will we just leave it as it is and pay the extra costs?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Does Mr. Conlon have an overall estimate of how much unoccupied space we are currently renting?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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How many people could we have in buildings that we are paying for, that is, where we are renting buildings from private companies but not using them? Do we have any idea how big that is?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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No, I am talking about vacant buildings, not buildings that are less occupied than they could be.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Therefore, 1% to 5% of buildings that the State leases are totally empty.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. Returning to the national science centre project, it is fair to say it has been an omnishambles from beginning to end, with a breathtaking lack of governance and financial scrutiny and being devoid of any oversight, all to the detriment of the taxpayer. With that in mind and with a view to learning lessons as we go forward, I note that the last time the estimated cost of the project was assessed was last year, and the estimate was to the tune of €70 million. Is the OPW monitoring that regularly? The cost of materials, construction and everything else is rising at the moment. It was stated earlier that no Department is willing to take the lead to fund the project. How can the OPW expect any Department to consider stepping up if the current cost is not being monitored to give a clear indication of the potential final cost if the project is ever achieved?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Considering the missteps by the OPW that have already cost the taxpayer €4.2 million to date, and with reference made earlier to there potentially being another €1 million of costs for previous arbitration and the most recent-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is the previous €500,000 in 2013 included in the €4.27 million?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does that mean we are probably looking at another €500,000?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Has consideration been given at any stage, considering the length of time this has gone on, to end the project once and for all? Is there a way to buy out the contract rather than keep on incurring costs and costs with no end in sight? I ask that because there is an existing science centre on the outskirts of Dublin and there could be potential to agree a PPP with it if the focus was not on this project, which is going nowhere and continues to incur costs. Has there been any consideration to date of ending this catastrophe, which has been ongoing for a long time, and looking at a potential new avenue and new dawn?
Mr. John Conlon:
I need to be careful what I say here to be frank. There is a legal process ongoing with arbitration. Regarding the promoter of the project and what it may do in terms of exploring options, that is a matter for them rather than for me to move forward with. I cannot really comment on what the next steps might be because of the legal process. I do not want to be quoted as saying certain things will happen that may not happen.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I appreciate that the witnesses were not involved in this project when it started 20 or 22 years ago. However, as they came into their positions and their predecessors moved on to other positions, I am sure there were hand-overs, conversations and background knowledge given to them as to how the OPW ended up in this mess, particularly as the witnesses are carrying the can for it as we go forward. What relationship is there with ICML at the moment? Do you know these people first hand, do you have a good working relationship with them, or is there no working relationship there?
Mr. John Conlon:
I have had a number of conversations with the CEO of the company since I took over as chair in April 2024, as has my colleague Mr. Sreenan. As I said in the C and AG's report, I have been quite candid with her in relation to the position we are in. I cannot determine what they will do.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What I am trying to get at is how we ended up here in the first place. Answering questions at a previous meeting of this committee in 2018, the then Chairman, Maurice Buckley, said the OPW went into this in good faith because everybody on the board of ICML was a person of good standing - I think that was the term used. Questions have to be asked as to how a consortium like this extracted a commitment from the State without providing any shred of evidence for the project's feasibility or demonstrating its ability to deliver, fit out, manage and run such an enterprise. Was it that the then board of the OPW was particularly impressed by the consortium? Was there intimidation of their good standing and repercussions if they did not proceed? I am trying to tease out why the agreement was entered into in the first place.
Mr. John Conlon:
The C and AG's report sets out a good timeline for this. A lot of it goes back to the early 2000s, when two Departments were involved in the promotion of the project, with one of them heavily involved, namely, the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It is fair to say that Department drove the project over the period from 2003 to 2008. The OPW would have been involved as a contracting authority. At that stage, a lot of that was driven because of that Department's interest in science research and promotion.
The crash came in 2008 and people walked away at that stage as a sponsoring authority. Unfortunately, the OPW made a very ill-advised decision in 2003 to ignore legal advice and has been caught on the hook from a legal perspective since. I cannot stand over that and I find it very hard to explain it.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Conlon. I will move on because I am conscious of time.
The OPW's 2023 account showed a significant level of non-compliant procurement in respect of 61 contracts totalling €12.9 million. In 2024, that increased to 74 contracts at a total value of €16.2 million. The issue seems to be getting worse instead of better. Can Mr. Conlon commit to having no further instances of this going into 2026? I presume it is something of which he is very conscious.
Mr. John Conlon:
I am and I made that point at the PAC hearing I was at last year. I will give the Deputy some details in regard to those 74 instances as of November. A total of 24 have now concluded and we have finished spending on them. There are 25 that have completed on site and retention payments are still required. That means 51 are now concluded or coming to a conclusion. Three are ongoing and new procurements will be put in place, and more procurement processes are expected in 2026. I am determined to put in place new frameworks to lessen the rate of non-compliance. We will wash these out as quickly as we can but it sometimes takes them a while to wash out, with some of them being multi-annual building contracts. We are determined to reduce this substantially.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Conlon. Before I finish, I will move on to a couple of local issues. I represent the Louth constituency, which takes in parts of east Meath. Sticking with Louth to begin with, the jewel of the heritage crown in Drogheda is St. Laurence's Gate. I have been conversing with the OPW about getting it open to the public. I am one of the very few people in the town who climbed St. Laurence's Gate several years ago as part of an arts festival. I know at first hand the benefits of it. It was opened again last year for a small number of people. Is there any update on proposals or works to open the gate permanently to the public and use it as a tourist attraction and to improve the surrounding public realm by creating a civic space? I have a commitment from the OPW that it will continue to engage with relevant stakeholders and so on but in my nine years as a public representative there has been no progress to date. I am very keen to see some movement on this in the near future.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
St. Laurence's Gate in Drogheda is an important national monument. The public realm area around it is in the control of the local authority and we are working with it in that regard. I understand it has a scheme in development to improve the public realm area.
On public access, the gate was open again this year during the Seán Corcoran festival that took place in Drogheda as part of National Heritage Week. We have a great team of people based in the Trim depot who will go out and provide access on request for festivals like that. The problem is it is not possible to provide a health and safety-compliant public access regime at the monument on an ongoing basis. The Deputy has been there and knows it is extremely difficult, and very unsafe, to climb the steps. It is just not possible to provide a regime for a level of public access on an ongoing basis. However, we are committed to ensuring we provide access for special occasions, including National Heritage Week and local festivals, and we will try to increase that level of access. We are totally committed to doing so and we have demonstrated that we can provided the people to enable that, as required. Particularly during festivals in the town, it is really important that the gate is accessible to people.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is brilliant. On Tuesday night, I attended a public meeting in Bettystown, where there is huge demand for the Garda station in east Meath to be moved. Is there any update on that? The move is a long time in the making. It is a rapidly growing urban area that simply does not have the Garda resources it needs or a fit-for-purpose station that is open more than four hours a week to serve a massive community.
There is great frustration and anger, and I gave a commitment the other night that I would raise that directly here with the witnesses today.
Mr. John Conlon:
Before I ask one of my colleagues to answer on the east Meath one, I just want to make the general point that the progression of Garda station projects is in the first instance a matter for An Garda Síochána and the Department of justice. We are the contracting authority. We do the work when requested. The decision to expand or whatever is a matter in the first instance for them because they pay for these projects. If Mr. Sreenan or Ms Morrison can give an update on the particular project the Deputy is talking about, I ask them to do so.
Mr. Conor Sreenan:
As the Chairman has said, An Garda Síochána, with the Department of justice, sets out its capital programme, seeks funding and sets prioritisation. The Office of Public Works provides the technical input as and when required to make sure that those appraisals, through the business case process, are robust. In effect, for Bettystown and various other sites, including nine others around the country, we are waiting for An Garda Síochána to set those prioritisations and then we will implement them.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Has the OPW identified a site? That is the crucial answer I am looking for because the last parliamentary question response I got from the OPW was that it had completed its market trawl for suitable sites and was in contact with An Garda Síochána. Has a site been identified by the OPW for that station?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Sreenan could, please.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Members will have a second round, if time permits. I call Deputy Geoghegan.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. Why is Mr. Conlon making a virtue of a 1% vacancy rate in the OPW's commercial office buildings?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Conlon not gaslighting there a bit? The OPW's occupancy levels are at 30% to 45%, so it is effectively operating a functional vacancy across a whole State portfolio of properties, for which it is paying an annual rental lease amount, at least according to its annual documents, of €124 million. It is perpetrating one of the worst levels of vacancy as a single property owner that I can conceive of versus any private property owner. Does Mr. Conlon accept that contention?
Mr. John Conlon:
No, I do not, and I am not gaslighting and not making a virtue of this. I am trying to be factual. In relation to the portfolio of buildings we have, the Civil Service and Government services have grown exponentially in recent years, far more than the square metreage we have, so we are reducing the square metreage per occupant in our buildings and trying to be as effective as we can.
In relation to occupancies, these are done on spot checks. For example,there are often fewer people in buildings on Fridays. We are trying to get our client Departments to use their occupancy across the five days rather than having everybody in on the same three days and so on. We are trying to work on that. Blended working has made a big difference in recent years.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am only working on the figures the OPW gave us, which show that, on average, its properties are operating at between 30% and 45% occupancy based on the spot checks it has done. Is that a figure Mr. Conlon is now telling us has no relevance or function? Why did the OPW give us that figure if the spot checks are happening on the wrong days? Does that figure have any function whatsoever?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
As the Chairman said, the 30% relates to a survey carried out on one day in regional offices and the 45% relates to a survey carried out on two different days in the Dublin offices. To get a true sense of the occupancy, it needs to be monitored over a longer period. In some instances, in particular in Dublin, occupancy levels of 60% 65% were recorded. That 45% was just the average. There is a need to monitor the occupancy over at least a week or longer. Those are the data we are now capturing with our clients under Circular 01/2025.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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If it is not the OPW's responsibility to assess occupancy, why is it now assessing occupancy? Mr. Conlon said it was the line Departments' responsibility to ensure that their buildings were full.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We have just discovered the OPW did not assess occupancy. It carried out spot checks at buildings and now it is going to assess occupancy, according to what Ms Morrison just said.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is that the OPW's function, to ensure that the buildings it is providing to its clients are in fact occupied and that if we are going to lease out buildings for €124 million every year, there is value for money in doing that?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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For argument's sake, let us say the OPW carries out a better data process. I do not for the life of me understand why this has not been carried out before, but we are where we are. If the occupancy figure comes out at 50% to 60% or whatever it is, what is the next action Mr. Conlon takes as Chairman of the OPW in terms of holding to account the various Departments or State agencies that are coming to the OPW looking for buildings, leases or renewal of leases and asking the OPW to spend taxpayers' money for them?
Mr. John Conlon:
We will work with the Civil Service management board on that basis to make sure we get some consistency across this.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Conlon think it is a big issue?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I understand that point, but does he think the low occupancy level of the buildings the OPW is leasing or owning is a big issue that is systemic and requires tackling?
Mr. John Conlon:
I think it is an issue. I do not think it is a big issue. As far as I am aware, the optimum occupancy rate is in the region of 60% to 65%, and that is what we want to work towards over time. As Ms Morrison has said, that has been achieved in a lot of buildings. We need to do more spot checks and more consistent checking to make sure we can up that occupancy rate to make sure we are getting value out of-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am thinking particularly with my Dublin hat on and about people looking in. We think about all the cultural spaces, artists' spaces and the tax changes we are making in the budget to convert empty office space into housing, and then we come to the State agency and we hear about occupancy levels of 30% to 45%. I hear what Mr. Conlon says about the figures, but he did give them to us, so that is why I am quoting them. We are talking about dealing with vacancy and dereliction in Dublin and elsewhere around the country and people are looking in and saying the State is managing a portfolio that is not actually filled with the workers in the buildings they own or lease. Mr. Conlon can understand how that looks and feels, the level of frustration that might be out there in relation to that and the urgency that is needed to clarify, deal with and address this issue to see if these buildings can be put into better use.
Mr. John Conlon:
We work hard with our clients to make sure that they are maximising their occupancy. We use our own building, 1 George's Quay, as an exemplar for other Departments in relation to how they can use hotdesking and shared office space to increase the number of people in the same footprint. We will continue working on that. That is easier in the newer buildings than in the older buildings. It is something we will do more work on. As I understand it, the optimum occupancy rate is in the region of 60% to 65%, and we will work towards that.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I want to return to the national children's science centre. Mr. Conlon was hung up on telling us that there were two offices occupied by the national children's science centre. He may be factually correct but, in practice, nothing else is happening in that building except for the two offices. Am I right in saying that? Those involved have a key to the building, they open the door, they walk in, they have access to the whole building, presumably, and they are in those offices. Nothing else is happening there. Is that right?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but just on the 9,000 sq. m, which I think is roughly the equivalent of a football pitch, that includes these two tiny offices that this national children's science centre occupies and that the OPW owns. Is that correct? Does it own that 9,000 sq. m?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So the building that is currently where the offices are-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Sorry. Okay. The OPW owns the 5,000 sq. m.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Nothing is going on in that 5,000 sq. m. Could Mr. Conlon just make that clear?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Over a decade.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is just shocking in a prime location in the city centre.
In principle, the idea of a national children's science centre giving people good reason to come into the city is brilliant, but this has been an absolute shambles. In fairness, Mr. Conlon has acknowledged that nobody wants this. Mr. Conlon cannot say it because he is in an arbitration process, but let us call a spade a spade here. He said that no Department made an application for capital funding. Nobody wants this. The State has basically said we do not want this. At some point some line Department will need to change its mind. If it does not change its mind, how will we reach finality in this process? If there is not sufficient private money to fund the national children's science centre, and if it requires public money but no State entity is willing to put forward public money, how long could this conceivably go on for?
Mr. John Conlon:
I need to be careful in what I say because of the legal process, as the Deputy will appreciate. I have been frustrated with this project since I became chair of it. It needs resolution, I fully agree. However, I need to be careful in what I say about how we move forward with this because of legal proceedings going on.
Going back to the Deputy's question on the vacancy of the north wing, there are plans to do substantial development in the overall NCH complex.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We know all that and there is capital funding for that.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is also a fact that the building has been empty for 20 years because of an agreement that is not Mr. Conlon's fault but that his predecessors were involved in creating. We are all paying for it and the city is paying for it because nothing is happening. Everybody is paying for it. It is an absolute mess and we need to bring finality to it.
The bike shed was one of the worst moments in the history of the OPW. That has lasted and it has cut through. It has become an issue where even in High Court judges make comments like, "We don't want another OPW-style fiasco like the bike shed." Is the OPW moving beyond the bike shed culture? Can the OPW restore its reputation in terms of what it is delivering and what its obligations are? How does it do that? How is it going to change that perception, which is fundamental to how the public perceive how moneys are being spent not just by the OPW but right across government, and the OPW is at the centre of it?
Mr. John Conlon:
I will take it from the OPW's perspective. In relation to the bike shelter, I published a report on that last year. I was very candid in that report. I acknowledged that that project should not have gone ahead in the way it did. Since then, we have put in new capital procedures for projects under €500,000. They were rolled out in the earlier part of this year. That is a substantial way of reacting to the point the Deputy just made to make sure that in those capital projects we have a good governance process in place. I am determined to continue with that and we have done that. That is how I have addressed that particular bike shelter project. As I said, I was quite frank and candid in the bike shed report I published last year on that. We have undertaken to do those new procedures. We have put them in place and we are monitoring them.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I take the opportunity to thank Mr. Conlon and his team for being here this morning and for a very thorough and robust conversation to date. Colleagues have covered many issues in depth. In the interest of efficiency, I will not go over those again or recap them. I will focus my contribution specifically on Castletown House. I take the opportunity to commend everybody involved in what has been a phenomenal outcome. I thank Mr. Conlon, Ms Collier and their team. I thank the Minister of State and the elected representatives. This really was a concerted effort from all sides in recent weeks and months to get us here. Fundamentally, we have to pay tribute to the resolve and fortitude the community in Kildare, and specifically in Celbridge and Leixlip, showed in campaigning for nearly 800 days to reunite the lands at Castletown into State ownership. What learning will the OPW take from this experience?
Mr. John Conlon:
I thank the Deputy for his comments. I will make my own comments on the purchase of Castletown. It has been a significant achievement to realise that purchase. It has reunified the Castletown estate, which has been a long-term objective of the OPW. In recent commentary, people have sometimes lost sight of our long-term objective to reunite the estate. We have done that. We have invested considerable time and resources in achieving that in the last number of weeks.
We have plans that we can discuss later if the Deputy wishes on how we can move that estate forward. As with any other estate we have, community engagement is important for us, not just with a particular group but with all groups. In terms of my approach to community engagement, it has to involve all groups listening to each other and working with each other rather than fighting with each other. I am not saying that was the case with Castletown but there have been tensions, as the Deputy knows, which meant we had to close the estate. That is something we did not want to do. Looking forward, we will continue to work with all community groups in Celbridge. That is the best learning from this project. Hopefully we can all do that in a positive way and we commit to working with everybody.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We know there were what I think we can classify as missed opportunities in 2021 and 2022 to acquire the land. Why was the third business case successful?
Mr. John Conlon:
We invested a lot of time in putting that business case together. As we published in our statement two weeks ago, we procured the services of Lisney to help us in the property negotiation and property assessments. We put particular focus on a strategic purchase. We were prepared to go up to 50% over the existing market value. I and my Minister of State, along with our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure, worked together in realising that. We then put a very robust business case together. I think the combination of all those factors realised the outcome we got.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Conlon's colleagues in the Department of public expenditure are more than welcome to come in here too. In terms of that classification of strategic importance, I presume that was not in place in 2021 and 2022.
Mr. John Conlon:
I do not agree with that. In 2021 and 2022, we made efforts to buy the estate. As I have always said, it has always been our objective to reunite the estate. The efforts we made in 2021 did not succeed. In 2022, we were outbid on the market even though we made an effort for a strategic purchase then by making a bid which was considerably in excess of the then agricultural market value of the lands. We came back again a third time and we achieved the objective. We made a strategic bid in 2022 to achieve those but were just outbid in the market. Property negotiations and market developments are not easy. People can be outbid in these processes and we were. That is a fact.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How do the costs manifest themselves in the OPW's accounts for the period of time that the house was closed? What is the estimated cost to the taxpayer over the last two years for that entire experience?
Mr. John Conlon:
I do not have those figures but we did continue to have staff working there and so we always had staff costs there. We had some security costs and we had some security issues down there that we had to deal with both in Castletown and in the adjoining property in Donaghcumper. They were significant costs we had to deal with. Management of the estate, even though it was closed, still requires ongoing maintenance insofar as we could do it in terms of access for vehicles, etc. There are always operating costs and so on, but there were additional security costs involved as well. We just met those on an ongoing basis but I do not have the figures with me.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Some would posit it at somewhere between €5 million and €8 million as the difference between acquiring it in 2021 or 2022 versus in 2025 if we consider how the valuation of the land has increased, the resources that have gone in plus the ultimate sale price. How do we learn from this for the next Castletown experience? How can we best avoid that again? The outcome has been hailed in the community but there will be more-----
Mr. John Conlon:
It is a very speculative question and I am loath to answer it in the way the Deputy wants me to answer, to be very frank. I have to deal in facts. That is what I deal in on a day-to-day basis, particularly in terms of property negotiations. Suggesting somewhere between €5 million and €8 million is slightly unfair.
We bid what we bid to get this purchase done based on the professional advice and based on the business case. We were determined to try to reunite this estate and that is what we have achieved. It involved paying a premium for the property which the State has done in other strategic purchases. That is something the State does sometimes to achieve its objectives in reuniting estates or increasing our portfolio for heritage, nature or whatever. I am quite satisfied that the approach we took stacked up on that basis. It failed in the earlier part in 2022 because it was outbid in the market - as I said, that happens. Again, I am looking forward on this. We wanted to reunite the estate and we did. We made every effort to do so through working with our property negotiators and working with the business case to make sure it economically stacked up. Then it was sanctioned by the Department of public expenditure and we move on from there.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can that business case be published?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Thank you. I want to join Mr. Conlon in excitedly looking forward. Will he outline some of the potential plans for Castletown and its lands?
Mr. John Conlon:
The potential is very significant. To remind people who might not have been as involved as the Deputy, we had 1 million visitors a year to Castletown House until 2022. That is a very significant footfall in tourism for the north Kildare area. We want to get back to that quickly and we will. In addition to that, I mentioned earlier we bought the Donaghcumper estate adjoining us. We will work with Kildare County Council in doing a massive plan both for Castletown and Donaghcumper. That has great potential to achieve huge synergies in tourism, as I just spoke about, and to allow Kildare County Council to provide the facilities that Celbridge and Leixlip need for sport etc. We will work hard with it over the coming years to achieve all those objectives. It will incur further investment in Donaghcumper in particular. We want to make sure Castletown itself receives investment and we have plans for that over the next number of years. We will try to work hard with everyone to make our plans clear. The benefits, as the Deputy knows, are huge. If we can get back to 1 million visitors a year to Castletown quite quickly, the Deputy knows the benefits it will have for Celbridge and businesses there.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It will have a phenomenal impact. Does Mr. Conlon have an idea of the timeframe for when the gate and the carpark will reopen and when we can start seeing some of that mobilisation occur?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will return to the first answer when we spoke about learnings, resolve and the confidence of the community and the various groups which were involved right throughout this. Mr. Conlon spoke about the importance of talking to everyone and working with everybody. Would the OPW consider, as part of this masterplan process, the next step and the future of the lands and their potential, ensuring that those people are at the table at all stages? That would include prior to the masterplan to design the terms of reference so that the community is involved at every step of the way.
Mr. John Conlon:
We will consult everybody. A masterplan does involve a consultative process which we will undertake. Consultation requires a two-sided engagement. We will listen to what everybody has to say. There are great plans and people can input into them. There are neighbouring businesses and communities who will have great interest in making an input. It will not just be one group - it will be every group we talk to.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to reiterate my thanks to Mr. Conlon and his team for the outcome.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will resume in public session. I call Deputy Kenny.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I am sorry for missing the first part of the meeting. I was at another event.
On Vote B and estates management, from speaking to my colleagues, I am aware that the OPW has two houses on the Spa Road in the Phoenix Park.
My understanding from reading through parliamentary questions from my colleague, Deputy Alan Kelly, is that the two properties in the Phoenix Park were used from 2010. One of them was used from 2010 to September 2025, and one of them was used from 2018 to 2025. Will the witnesses give an indication of who occupied both of those homes?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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On the remedial works from 2017 to 2018, how much was spent by the OPW on that property?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In relation to the response to the parliamentary question by Deputy Kelly on 13 September 2025, it was under refurbishment during 2017 and 2018 and was used for residential purposes from 2018 to 2025. How much did the refurbishment work in 2017 and 2018 referenced in the parliamentary question cost?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It was leased to An Garda Síochána. Is that correct?
Mr. John Conlon:
Yes, but the works were not done in preparation for leasing to An Garda Síochána. I want to emphasise that. The works were done because they were part of the programme of work we were doing to upgrade properties in the Phoenix Park. It was when the work was completed that we were approached by An Garda Síochána. The works were not done in contemplation of getting the house ready for any particular leaseholder.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Mr. Conlon has said that An Garda Síochána did not approach the OPW until the work was completed.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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To clarify, this work took place in 2017 and 2018. Is that correct?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Okay, so it is not 2015 and 2016?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Is the answer to the parliamentary question correct in relation to 2017?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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So in 2017 and 2018, when the work was being completed, obviously the OPW did not know that An Garda Síochána would make an approach about the property. Obviously, it was part of the programme for works. Was there an intention behind it?
Mr. John Conlon:
The adjoining property is occupied by one of our now retired employees, who was a former employee of the office. For those residences in the Phoenix Park, our policy is to have them for our own staff who work in what is a very large estate. Our policy then would have been to get those properties ready, and that is our ongoing policy: to have them ready for occupancy by our own staff in the park.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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When it was leased by An Garda Síochána in 2018, was the OPW made aware of who was going to be using the house?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Can Mr. Conlon name the occupant?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Very good. Was the occupant paying rent?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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An Garda Síochána was paying the rent?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The former Garda Commissioner was not paying his rent personally.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It is a question for An Garda Síochána whether the former Commissioner was paying rent to An Garda Síochána, which in turn passed it on to the OPW. That would not be a question for the OPW.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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How much was the rent received from 2018 to 2025?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The market value of that, of course, would have changed, as happened with significant houses across the country. Did the rent change during the seven years?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It stayed the same. Was it ever the OPW's intention to do more market research on that?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Why was the policy not implemented in relation to that house?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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It was not done. There are people right across this country whose rents are increasing on a yearly basis and for someone who is on upwards of €260,000 a year, their rent did not increase at all.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Absolutely, but the rent between the OPW and An Garda Síochána is in relation to the OPW. The fact is that the OPW did not ask for more rent.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Has the organisation learned from this?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Does Mr. Conlon believe the public purse was affected by this, considering that we could have taken in far more money during that period?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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A market rent was set in 2018. Market rent would have been different in later years.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The question posed by the public watching this might be, what does this say about the OPW considering that there is a policy in place but it was not followed through on?
Mr. John Conlon:
Most rents we charge are for our own employees and they are charged on certain different bases, depending on the work they do. Some are rent free and some are reduced rent because of the nature of the work, whether they are keyholders providing security and all that type of stuff. I do accept that we should have an ongoing process of review of our rents going forward.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In relation to the security costs on the site itself, was the OPW paying the security costs or was An Garda Síochána?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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In the region of what?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The difficult arises from a policy implementation. I hope the OPW learns how important it is that when a policy implementation is outlined, the policy should be implemented properly. The difficulty remains now that the public purse, I believe, was affected from 2018 to 2025. We have to consider that for the majority of the public - the ordinary Joe Soaps - rent increased on a yearly basis but the rent of a former Garda Commissioner earning a significant amount from the State, did not.
I will move on, because that is extremely disappointing. In my own constituency of Cork North-Central, Mr. Conlon might not actually be aware of the situation or the case, so he might have to refer back to me and that is fine. Two people have come to me in relation to purchasing the old Garda station in Glantane, just outside of Mallow. They have approached the OPW on a number of occasions about purchasing it. Their uncle was previously the sergeant in Glantane. There are no longer any gardaí stationed in Glantane. The house could be sold and it would be beneficial to the State. The OPW told the two people who approached me that the house is not for sale. Nothing is being done with that right now. It could be a house, as it was previously. I would ask Mr. Conlon to look at the feasibility of selling that house, considering that nothing is being done with it currently and I believe that there are no plans for it. At this stage, it is unlikely that it will ever be a Garda station again as it is in a very rural part of the constituency. I ask the OPW to consider the feasibility of selling the property.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Yes, I appreciate that.
Mr. John Conlon:
To make one point on that, we have protocols which govern how we dispose of properties and we go through all those protocols. I can outline those in a note and get back to the Deputy. We are bound by protocols on how we dispose of those properties once they are vacated and given back to us by An Garda Síochána.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Yes, exactly. I think it would be very beneficial to the State if protocols allow it. I want to very quickly touch on the flood relief work for Midleton. Why has this not been completed, or has it been completed?
Mr. Jim Casey:
The Deputy will be aware of the impact of Storm Babet in October 2023 in Midleton. The impact of that event required us to review the design standard.
At that stage we had a design for Midleton to bring forward to the stage 2 planning stage, but the scale and impact of that event required us to review the design for Midleton. Following the review of the event and relative to the proposed scheme design we made some small modifications to the proposed scheme. We are currently at stage 2 in the planning process for Midleton and the OPW has funded additional resources to Cork County Council to expedite the delivery on the Midleton scheme. Our next key milestone for Midleton is to submit for planning in quarter 3 of next year. Midleton is one of the most complex projects in the State because it suffers from flooding from all four sources, namely, tidal, fluvial, pluvial and groundwater, so it is a highly complex project and the total budget is of the order of €56 million to protect up to 720 properties.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Do we have an estimation of the timeline for how long it is going to take?
Mr. Jim Casey:
Broadly, flood relief schemes can take ten to 11 years from start to finish. We are into stage 2 now, the planning stage. That can take anywhere from one to two years to come out of planning. Typically then you are talking about another year for detailed design and then about three to four years for the construction phase. That is the broadly the timeline on it. What I would say as well on Midleton is-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of the time. If you could be brief, please.
Mr. Jim Casey:
We have also invested €5.8 million in interim measures in Midleton in the form of individual property protections, so that is being rolled out. We are looking to proceed to construction on an advanced element of Midleton next year, which is the Tír Cluain estate to the north of Midleton town - some advanced measures.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Go raibh maith agat.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks Deputy Kenny. Deputy Dolan is next.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Gabhaim buíochas to everyone from the OPW for being here. If we reflect on the last few years the OPW has gone through a turbulent period. It has been before the committee on multiple occasions where a lot of these issues have been brought to light and highlighted. It is important to reflect a lot of the great work the OPW does across my constituency. Part of its HQ is in Headford. Great work was done recently to Athenry Castle. Massive investment has gone into Portumna Castle. A lot of these venues that are operated day in and day out throughout the year provide a fantastic amenity and add hugely to our tourism offering. During the summer the New Zealand ambassador visited my constituency and we brought him to Athenry Castle, where we got a thorough tour. The depth of knowledge of the OPW staff on site was fantastic, so I want to start by complimenting the officials for all the good work that happens. The most recent example of where the OPW stepped up as the representative body of the State was the inauguration of our President at Dublin Castle. I commend the officials on the work that went into making that happen.
I will move to a couple of local issues. I have been banging on the door of the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, about a very local issue to my constituency. It has been going on for years now, but it means a lot to the people of Bullaun. It is the Turoe Stone, which is an Ogham writing stone that was there for thousands of years. The problem is that the stone has been in storage in Athenry for the last number of years. A project was proposed and has planning permission. I raised multiple parliamentary questions on it. I just want to find out where that project is at and whether there is a plan in place to make it happen.
Mr. John Conlon:
I thank the Deputy. Before I ask Ms Collier to address that, I know the area he is talking about. It is quite an attractive site from a tourism perspective because of what adjoins it. We have plans to advance that project. It has taken slightly longer than we would like. We have done a fairly critical review of the cost of that project over the last while. That is coming to an end and we now have detail we can move forward on. I ask Ms Collier to address that.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
I thank the Deputy. We appreciate it is a really important piece of heritage locally. It is in the safe hands of our team at the Athenry depot and well looked after. As Mr. Conlon says, there is planning permission for a scheme. We have reviewed the costs. The costs were probably prohibitive in terms of the scale of cost associated with the scheme that was designed, so we have sent it back for a bit of a redesign. It will need ministerial consent from the Minister for heritage but there are some property issues. We answered a recent parliamentary question to say that has been resolved and the carpark is now in the full ownership of the State.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We have definitely seen progress this year. I know the OPW has been working with the legal side of it to get it over the line. Out of curiosity, obviously there are issues with schemes like this where costs are prohibitive or maybe overlooked. I know from the members' brief that the OPW has brought in new procedures for projects under €500,000 to really assess the value for money. Are those procedures being used in this case? Are they being used in advance of this job happening, in order to ensure that in two years' time we do not have an article saying it cost an excessive amount?
Mr. John Conlon:
I have been here twice over the last couple of years defending the OPW and I will continue to do that. I am very conscious of the governance and the value for money we need to achieve on all projects. This was reviewed on that basis but we are determined to move forward with it quickly. It has been subject to all that is required to achieve a value-for-money outcome, and we will get that and move forward as quick as we can.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.
I had a meeting with the members of the Save Our Shannon Organisation and the Minister of State recently. I really appreciate the engagement from the OPW on that. What is vital here is that a huge number of farmers right along the Shannon who live in the Shannon Callows are having their livelihoods and incomes impacted by flooding along the Shannon. What is the OPW doing to resolve this matter? Moving forward, can it engage constructively with members of the Save Our Shannon Organisation?
Mr. Robert Mooney:
I thank the Deputy. It was very helpful to meet members of the organisation. We heard first-hand their experiences with flooding along the Shannon, of which we are very conscious and doing our level best to address. As we undertook on the day, we have had some follow-up actions with the Save Our Shannon Organisation. We have provided a direct link for communication purposes so it can contact the OPW and we can relay any concerns its members have about the management of water levels directly through to the ESB and Waterways Ireland. The second undertaking we have is that we are going to meet them on a working group that has been set up to consider the next steps for the Shannon Callows pinch points project. They are two commitments we have made that we are following up on. In a broader sense, on the approach to dealing with flood risk on the Shannon, we have a whole programme of flood relief schemes that are largely centred on dealing with communities. They are under way and progressing. The other aspects of flood risk then relate to the residual risk that is left. That includes, as the Deputy has identified, farmland along the Shannon Callows and those properties that would not be protected by the flood schemes.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that but I am just conscious of time. Is there anyone here who can give an update on the south Galway flood relief scheme? That is my last local issue.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The south Galway flood relief scheme has been an ongoing project between Galway County Council and the OPW for years now. I want to find out where it is at, what is the plan for moving forward and how can we get some action happening.
Mr. Jim Casey:
The south Galway flood relief scheme has a total budget of about €20 million to protect 115 properties. It is currently at stage 1, which is the scheme development and preliminary design stage. The next key milestone for the project is a submission for planning scheduled for quarter 3 of 2026.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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2026, okay. Is the OPW on target to hit that?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What would be stopping the OPW from getting that planning in place?
Mr. Jim Casey:
It is a highly complex project in terms of the karst nature of the community in south Galway. There are certainly a lot of environmental designations we have to work through in bringing forward a scheme that can be sensitive to the environmental designations there. That is one of the big risks and challenges we have at the moment.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Casey. On non-compliant public procurement, €781 million was spent on procurement as a whole in 2024. Is that correct?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There were 79 non-competitive contracts worth a total of €7.5 million. What is it that leads to a non-compliant contract being procured, and how does that arise?
Mr. John Conlon:
Some of these are running contracts over a period of time that take time to wash out. I gave some figures earlier in relation to those 74 contracts. Twenty-six have now been concluded in terms of spending. Twenty-six are finished on site and there have been some retention payments, so they will shortly conclude. That is 51 of the 74. We have three ongoing where we are putting new procurements in place. We have 17 that are ongoing, but we will have new procurements in place for 2026.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, this is for the 2024 accounts.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Has the OPW entered into new non-compliant contracts in 2025 that will be in next year's audit report?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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They are still competitive tenders.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General a question. Roughly what percentage of the 285 entities that are audited have non-compliant procurement currently?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough. I appreciate that.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
It is probably the exception rather than the rule at this stage. It is much less than it was because of the concentrated focus of ourselves and of the committee in past sessions. There has been a significant tightening up and there is much less non-compliant procurement than there was in the past.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have just one last quick question. I believe the OPW was instrumental in working with Galway County Council to deliver modular units in Ballinasloe for Ukrainian accommodation. Is that correct?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What drove the massive cost increases in the delivery of the modular units?
Mr. John Conlon:
We have had sessions at this committee before on that. There are two broad reasons for it. There is the modular element itself, which was fairly cost effective. What drove the cost substantially in a lot of cases was poor sites, getting access to services - power and wastewater - and very small sites. In retrospect, looking back on this, which is one of the learnings from the projects, if we are going to deliver further modular homes, we need to do them on better sites and better serviced sites.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Conlon believe the OPW could have a role to play in housing delivery in conjunction with local authorities across the State?
Mr. John Conlon:
We are not a housing agency. We did that on the request of the Government as a pilot project to test modular development in Ireland. That element has been successful enough. As I said, we have a lot of work on our hands. On whether we go back into modular housing development, I do not see a role at this stage unless requested by the Government. If we are to do so, as Accounting Officer, I would need to bring a very sharp focus on whoever funds that to make sure that properly serviced sites are provided.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas to everyone in the OPW. I appreciate it.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in to us today. I would like to discuss flood risk management, which is one of the OPW's core areas of business. I would particularly like to discuss the Camac flood alleviation scheme. For those watching, the Camac river flows from Saggart through to Bluebell, Inchicore and Kilmainham and into the River Liffey near Heuston Station. It is a big project that includes reinforcing the banks of the river and upgrading culverts, weirs and whatnot. It was meant to have commenced at this stage, and we know that it has not commenced. Could the OPW give me an update in relation to where we are with the Camac flood alleviation scheme?
Mr. Jim Casey:
I thank Deputy Ardagh for her question on the Camac flood relief scheme. Mr. Conlon referenced an incident in Inchicore in January of last year. That was to do with riverbank erosion, which threatened a property in Inchicore. There was engagement between the OPW and Dublin City Council in relation to that.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of properties were affected. It was not just one.
Mr. Jim Casey:
Yes. That matter has been addressed. However, the broader scheme is a scheme costing approximately €50 million to protect 413 properties throughout the Camac catchment. It is currently in the first stage of scheme development and preliminary design. We have had some issues and problems in terms of the delivery by the consultants on that project. We had some major setbacks with the hydraulic modelling, which was potentially over-predicting the flood risk on the Camac. We have had to revert to further modelling and development to rectify that situation. That has set the project back significantly.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know further modelling was requested after the April consultation. Has that been returned to the OPW for review? Where are we with that modelling?
Mr. Jim Casey:
We decided to continue on. We did have to consider whether we would retain the existing consultant due to the performance issues. On balance, we decided to stick with them because to seek another consultant for the project would have set it back even further, so we retained the consultant on the project. We commissioned further modelling to be carried out and we expect delivery of the modelling reports in quarter 2 or quarter 3 next year. That work is actively under way.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is 2026, so there is a considerable delay in the delivery of the project.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This project is part of the South Dublin County Council capital plan for 2022 to 2026, so it will probably fall outside of that. I hope it will be in the next plan. Have there been huge cost implications due to the delay? It was originally set at €50 million. What is the anticipated cost now?
Mr. Jim Casey:
That is still the cost estimate for the project. There has been additional cost to commission the further modelling, but it has yet to be determined who is responsible for that cost. We are progressing with that work and, on completion, the modelling work will determine where the costs for that lie. There are some additional costs for that further modelling but the bigger picture really is the time delay on the project. That is of more concern to us.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Casey envisage the construction work starting in quarter 3 of 2026?
Mr. Jim Casey:
Certainly not. We are a long way from construction work starting. We do not really have a longer term schedule on the project until we bottom out on the modelling issues. When we conclude the modelling issues next year, we will be able to put together a more definitive timeline for the conclusion of the project. As I said to the Deputy earlier, typically stage 2 on these projects is between one and two years, the next stage, detailed design, would be a year and then construction typically takes about three to four years, depending on the scale of the project. That is just an indicative timeline.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, that is disappointing, but I do hope Mr. Casey keeps this on his agenda because it is really important for a lot of people living in the city. It is a river that is forgotten. I ask him to try to keep it in mind.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Casey. Mr. Conlon said the OPW is not a housing agency but, as outlined in his Chairman's introduction, it is a steward of Ireland's cultural buildings. That is one of the core pillars of the work of the OPW. When I looked at the report I thought the estimate of €5.9 million for the purchase of new sites and buildings was quite low. Why is that figure so low?
Mr. John Conlon:
It is hard to predict in any given year what we will spend on site purchase or site disposal. We dispose of properties every year as well, and sometimes that can be reinvested if the Department of public expenditure and reform agrees. We expend additional money on site purchases where we get the opportunity to do so, with the consent of the Department of public expenditure and reform. I mentioned earlier, for example, that this year we are purchasing a new office building in Dublin, which will be cost effective in terms of getting rid of a long-term lease and payback period. We do take opportunities to purchase properties where we can do so.
Two examples this year are the office building in Dublin 1 and the Castletown House estate, which we purchased this year. Both purchases were based on doing business cases and a lot of evaluation. We work with our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure if additional funds are required to do that.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Many of us in this city are aware of Baggot Street hospital being for sale at a price of €5.5 million. It needs a lot of work but many would say it has architectural and historical value. Has a business case been made to purchase the hospital? There have been calls from many involved in historical societies within the city for the State to retain ownership of it. The property needs work. As this is one of the core pillar of the OPW's work, is consideration being given to purchasing it? I would like to see that happening.
Mr. John Conlon:
We have not given it consideration to date. I understand this was discussed when Mr. Bernard Gloster, CEO of the HSE, was before the committee recently. The big issue from our perspective is that we have agreed a funding envelope for capital works for the next five years to do a lot of the work we want to do. We would like to do more but our NDP allocation is our NDP allocation. In my view, that particular property will require considerable investment and I am not sure where it would fit into the list of priorities we have. It is a very old property and, I agree, quite an historical one in a very good location. However, the amount of investment it would require probably would be an impediment to our giving it further consideration. I am being very candid and frank in saying that.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I commend the OPW on its accessibility strategy at heritage sites for those with disabilities and their carers. People with a hidden disability can use a just a minute, JAM, card to access sites. I do not know whether the OPW has done an audit but I understand not all its sites are completely accessible. Is there a structured plan in regard to accessibility and inclusiveness?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
Over decades, the OPW has sought, where possible, to introduce universal access to sites. National monuments are exempt from the legislation on provision of access under Part M of the building regulations. However, in instances where we can do so, we have, and will, put in lifts, ramps or other appropriate access arrangements at national monuments. There are some good examples of this around the country. In Kilkenny Castle, for example, where there is not access to the picture gallery, there is now planning permission for a scheme to provide universal access to that floor by way of a lift. We are also putting in changing places. Our policy is that where we are doing works, we seek to ensure we have universally accessible facilities and that we put in changing places, which we have done in places like Doneraile Court in north Cork and Farmleigh House.
We take the opportunity when we are doing works at sites to ensure we integrate very good universal access arrangements and suitable supports for people with disabilities. However, that is just not possible in all buildings. In particular, national monuments like tower houses and round towers are very constricted buildings in terms of their architectural fabric. It is just not possible to create universal access in all those locations. However, we have a very good programme and a very dedicated team of people who look at this and understand what they are meant to integrate into all projects as they are going along.
Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending the meeting. I am delighted to be speaking to them now that the lands at Castletown House have been bought. There has been a huge issue with the estate since it first went on sale. It was 14 July 2022 when I first heard it was to become a public amenity. It took a while to get here but the lands were reunified last week and that has had a huge impact on our community in Leixlip, Celbridge and the rest of north Kildare. I was a councillor until last year for the Leixlip-Celbridge area and I have met a number of the witnesses in that capacity. A huge amount of work was done from a community perspective. I thank the people in the community for their forbearance through everything that happened. People had become used to being able to access the estate in recent years. It was a second home to many during the Covid restrictions. I had my wedding photographs taken there and my children have been brought there in the buggy since they were tiny. We continued to go there until the past couple of years, when access via the M4 was restricted. This was very personal to me and to everybody in our community.
There is huge joy and relief in our area that we have access back to Castletown House, and just as important, that the lands are now reunified, which is a very significant step. It was one thing to get the access we required but for the lands to be purchased and a holistic solution found is incredible for the area. I want to acknowledge that. As well as thanking the community, I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, for his work over the past year. Since I became a TD, I have met with him, and cornered him, many times to discuss this. I have also met with Mr. Conlon a number of times and I thank him for his work. I first met Ms Collier two or three years ago in the bottom room in Castletown House. I thank her for her work on this. I also thank her colleagues Katie Morrisroe and Samir Eldin, who have worked on this over recent years. I am very conscious of their efforts and I am sure they are delighted the matter has been resolved. I thank all involved in the OPW.
We will have to look now to a plan for the lands. There are 462 acres at Castletown and, in addition, the lands at Donaghcumper have been bought in conjunction with Kildare County Council. When does the OPW expect there to be access to the back lands at the M4 exit?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I was there last week.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It would be great to get some level of access by Christmas. The site is somewhat accessible for pedestrians currently and the car park looks in good nick relative to how I have seen it looking over the years. People like to go there during the Christmas season, so it would be great to have access.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is brilliant. We have spoken about this previously but I reiterate that access is key. We have also discussed the longer-term plan for the lands. At 462 acres, it is half the size of Phoenix Park. It is a huge amenity with huge potential. We would like to see a master plan set out, with public consultation as soon as possible. When does Mr. Conlon envisage that consultation process commencing?
Mr. John Conlon:
We will engage with Kildare County Council as soon as we can and will work with it on this. I envisage that the public consultation will begin as early as possible next year. The first thing we need to do is have a good chat with the council. The synergy is there and there is great potential. I am very conscious of that. We have waited a long time for this day and we want to move forward. We have put some money into getting refurbishment and stabilisation works done at Donaghcumper House. We will move forward and we will consult widely, in conjunction with Kildare County Council. There is significant potential there and as much input from people as possible will build that potential further. As I said, the critical thing for us to do first is to engage with the council, and we will do so as early as possible next year.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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As someone who is from and lives in the area, I am aware of the dire need for social infrastructure in north Kildare. This will serve to benefit the community in that regard. I want to see that benefit quickly and, more importantly, I want to see it done in the best possible way for future generations.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Having been a local councillor for 15 years, I will be able to throw in an opinion or two. I look forward to being part of that process.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Notwithstanding that, I know there have been issues. Obviously, we would prefer if it never happened, and a higher price was obviously paid, which was referenced earlier, than we would have done a few years ago. Mr. Conlon might give his opinion on how that situation evolved and why we have been able to do it now whereas we were not able to do it before.
Mr. John Conlon:
As I said, we put a lot of focus on this in the last while. We were determined, and it has been our long-standing objective to reunify the estate. In terms of this particular transaction where we paid a strategic price on it, we put a lot of work into it in terms of professional valuations, what premium value we could consider and what we could arrive on and then how we could support all this with a robust business case. That was the focus of our work over the last four, five to six months. It was intensive work. We needed to do it right so we could satisfy the statutory requirements of our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure and reform, which were received. As I said, the State has in the past made strategic purchases of property and paid a premium value. We wanted to make that right, subject to that business analysis and business case, to make sure we were achieving value for money. We did that, and then we got the sanction and moved forward from there.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It has to be said that it has left a sour taste with certain members that someone was able to financially benefit from a quick turnaround on land. That has to be acknowledged from our side.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What you could resolve.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Conlon had to at a certain point, I get that. I did just want to reference that. I know that in the context, once it happened, it happened. The point is that was something I want to be conscious of too.
I will move to a couple of other areas. I want to focus on and ask a question about leases because it speaks to what Deputy Murphy was discussing. We are in that space where people are working from home and I completely get that, and we have occupancy. As was also acknowledged, and Mr. Neville said it himself, as the State has expanded in its services and, obviously, there is a need for more buildings, have we looked at how, in an evolving situation, there has been any kind of link-up between the different Departments on how we might look at how properties and office leases might work, with Departments - I will not say cohabiting - coming together so that, rather than having, we will say, 15 offices half-empty, we have seven and a half that are fully utilised? Obviously, I am being simplistic in that sort of reference, but at the same time, in general, I think that point does apply.
Mr. John Conlon:
That is something we do. I can think very quickly of a number of buildings in Dublin 2, in particular, where Departments and agencies colocate in one building. That has always been our objective when we are looking at property in that we do not just look at a property for one Department. There are examples. Leeson Lane, which is a building we completed, houses the Department of culture, but it also houses about 100 staff from the Department of Finance. Therefore, colocation is part of the way we do our business in terms of occupancy and things. Miesian Plaza houses three or four different Departments and agencies. We do colocate Departments in buildings where we can.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, because it is such an evolving situation. In the nature of how we work and work remotely, it is something that every Department should be pushed towards. It is obviously not from Mr. Conlon's own perspective, but we need to look at that internally across all the Departments of what the requirements are. That is maybe something we could look at putting in a report and getting a recommendation on that.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If Mr. Conlon does not mind, it will not be about the future. The issue would lie with where we came from previously and where we are with current occupancy. His request will be there, and we can look at that future, but I am talking about a Department that might have been using a building for the last 20 or 30 years. Mr. Conlon will not be made aware of what the occupancy is necessarily. All I mean is that we have to be more aggressive across the board in looking at that.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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However, it is such a new and evolving situation that I think we have to look at that mechanism whereby the OPW is given the power, strength and force, or whoever that may be, to actually ask those questions of other Departments in that way. As I said, ultimately, Mr. Conlon is going to be the one questioned here about occupancy and accountability whereas he is doing it at the request of another Department.
Mr. John Conlon:
From a policy perspective and a directional perspective, we are accommodating a lot more staff within the same footprint. The space per employee has been reducing. All those facets are in place. We will improve our data. We will improve how we get reports back from Departments on how they are using their spaces as well, and that data will feed into decisions as we go on.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Conlon very much for his time.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everybody from the OPW and thank them for coming in today. I am just going to get straight down to it. I have a good few questions I want to get to. My first question to Mr. Conlon is, is his role Chairperson or Chairman?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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His role in the organisation, though, is Chairman.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much does Mr. Conlon get paid for that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so how much is that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How long has Mr. Conlon been in that role?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The previous Chairman received a severance pay, is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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His severance pay was-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would that be the norm for somebody who leaves a job or when they are finished their job to get that amount of money?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who would that contract be with?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so, €236,000 for severance pay.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry; it was €224,000.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. So, not everybody in the OPW gets those types of severance pay.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does anybody else get severance pay?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does everybody in the OPW get severance pay?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They are the only three who will ever get severance pay.
Mr. John Conlon:
It depends on the circumstances. Sometimes in early retirement due to sick pay, there can be severance. Sometimes, where civilian drivers are employed, their contracts will provide for severance payments. In general, however, civil servants who leave the organisation would not get severance.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a recognition within that payment that a person is entrusted with a significant budget, and that budget did not run into deficits or anything like that? Are there any kinds of controls in place that a person would not get a severance pay if he or she did not do the job at hand?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They automatically just get it-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----no matter what-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just find it very interesting, with such well-paying jobs and with so many staff - I think Mr. Conlon said he had 2,500 staff - that the OPW resorts a lot to consultancy reports. Within one of the consultancy reports was €25,000 that was paid to Deloitte for the bike shelter to estimate if that was good value for money. I find it extraordinary that amount of money was spent first on the bike shelter, but then an additional €25,000 was spent to see if that was good value for money when we have 2,500 staff in the OPW. It just boggles my mind that the taxpayer is paying this out. People have to realise that this is taxpayers' money. I want to see the value for the taxpayers' money. I feel that people are not getting good value for their money when we are hiring consultants at €25,000. Does Mr. Conlon feel it is good value for money?
Mr. John Conlon:
In terms of the bike shelter report, I did my own report on that last year and published it. As part of that and given the issues that were being asked of me, I felt it appropriate, as the Accounting Officer, to get some independent audit assurance on the work I did.
That is what I procured. I thought it was a very good audit and it gave us some very good recommendations, all of which we have implemented. Given the controversy that arose about the bike shelter and given the interest of this committee and other committees, I just felt it appropriate that I seek some independent audit assurance and that is what I did there.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much has the OPW paid out to Deloitte in consultations?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much do we pay out to it ?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I would like to see that figure because, with 2,500 staff, I imagine a lot of the work could be done in-house. We do not need to pay €25,000 for consultants. I just find right across all the Departments that there is an over-usage of consultants when we have staff on site already, to decide if it was good value. Did anything happen in relation to that? If it was €385,000, were there any penalties? Was anybody reprimanded? Did anything happen after you the report for €25,000 was done?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. To go back to Deloitte, how much have we spent on Deloitte in the OPW, please?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I presume that the OPW has tendered for the measured-term maintenance contract, MTMC. I would just like to ask a few questions in relation to that. Was there a contract in place for the MTMC?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What term is that contract?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The last contract though, when did it finish?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW had one contract with the same company from 2015 to 2018. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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From 2015 to 2018. The OPW had that same company again from 2018 to 2022. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW has had this company twice. When I tried to work out my figures last night, it seemed to me that whenever this company was contracted in and procurement was done, it always came in way over the estimated price that it actually put in to eTenders. It was way over-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I am just wondering how that would happen.
Mr. John Conlon:
It is a maintenance contract for what is a hugely complex and busy building requirement in Dublin. It is a reactive contract where we get calls in to help out in relation to what repairs and maintenance are required in Dublin. The fact of the matter is that we are very busy with an old building stock in Dublin which requires a lot of maintenance.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My issue here is that whenever the company contracts with the OPW or whenever it goes in for the tender, it puts in a price that is a lot less than what it actually costs the OPW in the end run, so I am just wondering-----
Mr. John Conlon:
The company bids to do a range of work over a period of time. If the range of work is busier, then that gives rise to the increased amount, not what the company bids on. Its bid is based on providing services, which are very detailed in that contract, for various things. The reason the moneys are more is because more work is done in the contract.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did the OPW then underestimate the contract by over €105 million? Would I be correct in saying that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was not actually in the company's tender document. It did extra works outside the document that had been signed, so in reality then the OPW had not actually procured anybody to do the works in Dublin Port. Is that correct?
Mr. John Conlon:
It is important to say first that the contract gives a wide range of pre-agreed unit prices for different types of works across. In relation to the Brexit works, as I said earlier, we needed to react quickly to that because of the nature of Brexit, the nature of the rules and the amount of work that had to be done there. The quickest way we could react to that was to use this contract. As it had a lot of pre-agreed prices, we felt it was an effective way of doing it and that is what we did.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW did not go to another company. It did not procure or not look for another company to look at this contract. It gave it to the same company that has been in place from 2015 to 2026 without a contract.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon believes the OPW got value for money when the spend was underestimated by €105 million?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I will finish there. Hopefully I will get back in. The Chair is very strict.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I would not say so. I have a number of questions. I again welcome the witnesses. Mr. Conlon took over as chair of the OPW in April 2024. He outlined some of the detail of the severance package to his predecessor, which amounted to €224,000, an extraordinary sum, albeit one he was entitled to. I might ask the Department of public expenditure to send in a note to the committee on this. Mr. Conlon said it was the exception rather than the norm. He might-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but as you said, you would not be entitled to that. We might get a note from the Department of public expenditure about how all of that was worked out.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the previous Chairman, Maurice Buckley, he retired at that time. He had a leaving party in April of last year, was it?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I remember reading some media reports at the time that it took place in Dublin Castle.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was that arranged through the OPW? Did staff from the OPW work on that going-away party?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Media reports suggested that up to 300 invitations were sent out.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I think it was reported that about 150 people showed up, which is fairly big for a going-away party. It was also reported that the cost of it was in the region of €7,500. Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I think originally the OPW paid.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon might talk us through that. The OPW footed the bill.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Did something spur that repayment request? Was there an FOI maybe or media focus that spurred it?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Substantial. He did not cover 100%.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was retrospective, though.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Did Mr. Conlon, as the new incoming chair, seek to stop that payment going from the OPW?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon tried to stop the payment.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Had the payment been made to cover the costs?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So he only paid part of it. He did not cover the 100%.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Conlon feel that 100% should have been covered?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was also widely reported that, prior to his retirement, the then chair went on a leadership course to Paris. Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Conlon know what the cost of that was?
Mr. John Conlon:
I cannot recall. I think he was due to go on the course sometime before that but Covid got in the way of it.
Once Covid finished - and I am only recalling this from memory, having been briefed at the time. After Covid was finished, he then went on the course, which was in the year before his retirement.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There is a cost, and it is public-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Conlon not disputing that figure of €33,700?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was an 18-day course. I think he attended that in three different stints. Mr. Conlon said that it was through a certain mechanism. Would Maurice Buckley have had to seek and obtain approval from someone for him to go on that particular course?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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He would have required approval to go on that course. Would the Department of public expenditure and reform have signed off on that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was the Department of public expenditure's approval sought before Mr. Buckley went on this course?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I think at the time the OPW said that approval was sought and obtained from the Department of public expenditure. However, the Department said - and it is on the record - that permission was not sought or obtained, and that Mr. Buckley had the power to authorise something like that. I would appreciate if we could get some claritification on that because it is quite concerning that this course he went on was in the 12 months running up to his retirement. It was such a huge expenditure. What benefits could the OPW accrue from a senior person like him going on a course like this? There are serious question marks.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will touch on that. Again, it is widely reported that Mr. Buckley attended this particular course on three separate occasions. The first trip was over nine days back in 2022, the second trip was over five days in 2023 and the third trip was over four days in 2023. Were all the expenses were covered?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I think the OPW has given one figure. It was for the third trip and that was for €1,660.60. Does that sound correct? Does Mr. Conlon have that level of information?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon may not have all of those figures-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----but can he give a full breakdown on the expenses claimed and paid to Mr. Buckley for the three separate trips? I am not faulting anyone seeking to improve their qualifications or whatever, particularly when there is a tangible benefit to the organisation, but for such a high level of expenditure to be paid for someone due to retire within 12 months causes serious-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get clarity as to whether permission was sought and approval obtained from the Department of public expenditure?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I would appreciate it becausethere is a question mark around that.
A lot has been said about the national science centre. It is an unmitigated mess going back to the outset. I am not going to get in to forensically questioning how we got to that point, but there were systemic failures throughout the whole process. The C and AG's chapter highlights the unnecessary risk to the Exchequer due to the failings within that process. Does Mr. Conlon agree that it was an unnecessary risk to the Exchequer?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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From the Department of public expenditure's perspective, is it agreed that there was an unnecessary risk to the Exchequer in terms of the failure to have a coherent process in place? Has that been accepted by the Department?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Going back to the 2013 agreement after arbitration, we know the OPW was tied into this. Is there a timeframe in terms of the requirements to provide space or accommodation to the national science centre?
Mr. John Conlon:
There is an ongoing arbitration process, which began in 2022. There was a decision made in 2022. That then went on to a process, which we will finalise in the next number of weeks. A timeline will be set up by the arbitrator for the completion of the works and that will be consistent with what is in the planning permission and its timelines. I think the planning permission, which is in place, was given in 2024 and will run out in 2029. My understanding is that the effective timeline will be in that period. As the Chair has indicated, the problem is that there is no funding.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was it not in the 2013 agreement that there would be a 20-year timeframe provided to the centre for the utilisation of the space?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are eight years on that lease.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the absence of a cost-benefit analysis and the failure to have a sponsoring authority, this needs to come to a conclusion, one way or another. We cannot allow it to go on indefinitely exposing the taxpayer to substantial costs. The fact that it is not contained in the NDP, which goes up to 2040, and that no Department looked to take this on or become the sponsoring authority is quite concerning. I do not expect the Department of public expenditure to have specific information here, but we have been given a figure for the costs, which are €4.27 million to date. I am also conscious of other Departments providing grant funding to the centre. Does the Department of public expenditure have that level of information, including the departmental grant funding?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What funding has been provided to the science centre to date?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Not to hand but is Mr. Jenkinson in a position to provide-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it possible that it is not exhaustive?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the cost-benefit analysis on this, there have been references to other operators providing similar attractions to the public. Which body does this fall under? The OPW obviously has a responsibility for aspects of it. What is the Department of public expenditure's view on this?
Mr. Fionn Jenkinson:
It would be for the sponsoring authority, but obviously in this case there is no sponsoring authority.
The first thing you need in this process is a sponsoring authority. You would then have a business case, an allocation and a sanction. The sponsoring authority would obviously-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What role is the Department of public expenditure and reform playing in that process, or any process, to move things on? Is there any work going on within the Department?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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As I said in my opening remarks, the situation cannot continue the way it is. It is a serious strain and risk to the Exchequer. A cost analysis needs to be carried out. I am sure that on foot of our engagement here, the committee will be producing a report with a number of recommendations. It is a totally unsustainable stand-off situation. It is continuing to put public money at risk.
I will conclude there and allow members to come in for a second round of questions.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for staying for this length of time. In my first contribution, I did not have a chance to discuss the Passport Office in Cork. As we know, a 20-year term has been agreed for a building at Navigation Square in Cork City, at a cost of €26 million over a 20-year period. That averages out at €1.3 million per year in terms of the rental cost of the building. Are those figures accurate and correct? The cost will be €26 million for a 20-year lease.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the overall lease for €26 million? "A proposed new building on Navigation Square was deemed to be the most favourable option at €26 million (economic net present value)."
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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So, it is a total cost.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That raises a number of questions. The figure of €26 million is very substantial, including rent and other costs, for a building we will never own. It is a 20-year term. Why did we not consider buying a building to house the Passport Office in Cork?
Ms Cathleen Morrison:
We did. We considered all options in accordance with the infrastructure guidelines when we were identifying options to replace the existing building, which, as we all know, is at the end of its life. A full preliminary and final business case was done in accordance with the infrastructure guidelines and all options were explored. This is the option that came out.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but I am under time pressure. Is the current building rented or owned?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the annual rent?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand, but the jump in the annual cost is quite significant. The figures are €290,000 versus €600,000 rent, with the actual annual cost averaging out at €1.3 million when we consider the €26 million figure. That is a sizeable jump.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is that to say we are going to get a significant increase in services in Cork as a result?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it planned that there will be additional services, for example, printing facilities and so on?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will there be emergency appointments? Many of them must be done in Dublin now. Could Ms Morrison give us some sense of what is planned for the service roll-out that will be seen in Cork as a result of these additional annual costs?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand, but the OPW is funding the additional costs.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I still question why a building was not bought. We hope the Passport Office in Cork will be there for ever more. There is a need for one. In regard to the idea that we would lock ourselves into a 20-year lease, which, in time, will have to be renewed, I would question the value for public money of that.
I will turn to another issue that was highlighted in a newspaper article during the summer. It relates to lighting at the National Gallery of Ireland and over €200,000 having been spent between 2019 and 2023. It seems work undertaken in 2021 and 2023. Is there a problem with the lighting? Why is so much funding required to maintain the lighting at the National Gallery? It does not have a stellar record in terms of public funding. I am thinking of the x-ray machine. This is an important issue that needs to be raised.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
There were some issues with lighting fixtures and fittings in the gallery. They had to be repaired and replaced. We undertake maintenance of the National Gallery every year. We have a dedicated team on site to deal with building maintenance. We have our own craftpersons on site. These were light fittings and kit in the building, which had problems and had to be replaced.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand it was only originally installed in 2017, so it was quite new.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Within a short number of years, a substantial amount of money had to be spent again.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
It was a very small amount compared with what was originally spent. That would be considered standard upgrading when things require replacement. I appreciate we probably would not have expected to be replacing it as quickly, but it did fail and there was a safety issue for the gallery spaces for the public.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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A cost of €200,000 for something that was installed in 2017 seems to be an awful lot of additional cost. Are we done with it now? Will further costs be incurred?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will go back to the science centre, if I may. I am sorry I missed some of this debate. In relation to the Earlsfort Terrace building, 9,000 sq. m was mentioned but, as I understand it, not all of that is there presently. How much is there presently?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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A tiny portion of that is actually being used. Is that correct? Is it correct to say that the remainder of that building will not be used until a position is taken on the science centre?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of an end use, it is being left there for a potential science centre that may or may not happen. Is that correct?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Unless something makes a decision and takes a position on the science centre, which, to be perfectly honest, it seems everyone is running a mile from, this large building, which would have a significant opportunity cost in terms of commercial rent, is just being left there. That additional annual cost is being incurred every year in terms of the lost rental role.
Mr. John Conlon:
It has been vacant for quite some time. We maintain it to the degree that it will not degrade, as I said. As to its future use, I cannot comment. I do not want to make any comment that would prejudge anything that might happen at the national children's science centre, to be frank. There is plenty of potential for that building if it were not to be used as a science centre.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that, but there is no end in sight whatsoever and that building-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----is sitting there in the heart of Dublin city, where there are so many issues around accommodation needs. The mind boggles, to be perfectly frank. I am not putting this on Mr. Conlon because I understand he inherited the situation. It is a matter that needs further scrutiny.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It strikes me that the arbitration process the OPW is engaged in is taking place in some sort of parallel universe. The OPW goes in there, understands what is in the agreement and understands what it is going to be bound to for that agreement. One of three things is going to happen. Either the OPW is going to build this building at the cost of €70 million, which is the estimate, or it is going to pay damages to the equivalent of the cost of the building, which is €70 million, or it will come to some sort of consensual agreement in relation to ICML's claim for the moneys that the OPW is going to invest to build a national science centre. One of those things is going to take place. The OPW is going in there and no line Department has given it any instruction that there will be any funding commitment whatsoever. Whatever the arbitrator agrees in terms of timelines for delivery, there is zero capacity for the OPW to deliver on that timeline in the absene of an intervention from a line Department. Is that a fair assessment?
Mr. John Conlon:
I said earlier that I am very uncomfortable as the Accounting Officer in this space.
We have what is a binding commitment and we have no funding, so I am in a position, as Accounting Officer, where I have to recognise this binding arbitration, recognise the commitment to develop it, and then also have due regard to the fact that I have no funder to do so. I am in a very uncomfortable position here.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes. We can assess the rights and wrongs of the National Children's Science Centre deciding to go down a legal route, which they were entitled to do, in respect of the agreement that had been made with them. Ultimately, this is a €100 million ticking time bomb that the State is on the hook for. In pure legal terms, it seems unavoidable that they have an entitlement to €70 million from the taxpayer. They are going to get it one way or another, unless there is some appeal to the goodwill of some very fine people who are involved in the National Children's Science Centre and, equally, the public goal of what they are trying to achieve. Is there some middle way, some third-way solution, sandwiched in the middle of all of this? Who is working on that, if there is such a way?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It would be an absolute travesty, the idea that a group of people who had come together to build a National Children's Science Centre for the children of Ireland, located in Dublin, would go to the High Court and bind the State to delivering it. I have never heard of anything like it. There is probably nothing like this in the world, where an agreement exists that a party could bind the State into delivering a museum in addition to the moneys they are going to provide. Is there any parallel to this extraordinary situation that Mr. Conlon can point us to?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We talk about bike sheds. This is hundreds of bike sheds. €100 million, ultimately, is what this could cost the State for something that no party to the State has indicated they currently want, with a party that has taken the State through legal action to bind it in. It is not a great place to start an enduring relationship of delivery from its original outset, is it?
Mr. John Conlon:
I do not want to make much comment on this because I am conscious that I may need to talk to other parties and other Government Departments. In anything I say now, I need to be very careful. The one thing I will say is that we own the building and they do not own it, so if we invest in this building, it may have other potential uses.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The OPW will still have to pay the €70 million to deliver their science museum.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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If a business case can be made for this, I want to see it, but I want to see a line Department come forward and tell us about it. We are operating in a fact-free zone on that front.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I will conclude with a question to Mr. Casey on a local matter, Sandymount flood relief. The OPW has been very supportive in the engagement it has given the community, and it is progressing. Can Mr. Casey give an update on how well it is progressing? When is it likely that we are going to see this move towards the construction phase? Is it conceivable that the universal approach of delivering a wide promenade with a cycleway and the UNESCO biosphere can be delivered in a joined-up approach, perhaps with the NTA, for Sandymount flood relief?
Mr. Jim Casey:
As the Deputy knows, the scheme commenced with the appointment of consultants in December last year. The OPW has signed a memorandum of understanding with Dublin City Council to progress the project. It is currently of about €20 million in value to protect 1,441 properties. It is at stage 1. A public participation day was held in April of this year to canvass the views of the local community. The report of that consultation event has been published on the project website. It highlighted some of the issues that are of concern to the community, including some of those just mentioned by the Deputy.
We do not have a detailed programme to get to construction yet. It is at stage 1. It is probably going to take two to three years to conclude and to bring forward options to go to planning with. The submission for planning is currently scheduled for December 2027, and that is the timeline for getting the project into planning. Given its scale and the environmental designations of the area, we will need to do a lot of work in engaging with all of the community stakeholders, and a lot of environmental assessments will need to be carried out. A lot will depend on where the defensive structures are located, and whether they need to be located on the foreshore or set back from the foreshore. A lot will depend on that. All the options are being looked at by the consultants at the moment. We will have further engagement with the community shortly.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I want to follow on from the questions on the science centre. What is the name of the group that originally looked for this?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How many people are in this group?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it a functioning board? Do they do other things?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They obviously have financial statements that are publicly available.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do we have any idea what the turnover of the charity is?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is negligible. It is almost a dormant entity, is it?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So this is just going in the background. We are talking about €100,000 in revenue, but then we are talking about €70 million.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Exactly. We can find it out, but €70 million is such a monstrous number in relation to it. It seems strange. Along with the science centre, as referenced earlier, there is also a private enterprise that runs a science centre. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Would that be a similar entity?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This is more a question about remit. Would it be within the remit of the OPW to discuss matters directly with a third party like that, which is operating in a similar location, shall we say, or would Mr. Conlon say that is for a relevant State Department?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Exactly. That is what I wanted to clarify because I know it has come up. It would not be within the OPW's remit. It might come under higher education, or whatever it might look like, but it would be for some other Department. I just wanted to clarify that situation.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Exactly, when it comes to a business case.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is exactly the issue.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We cannot necessarily treat it as a museum like the National Gallery or the history museum.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Maybe that was the original vision but, obviously, if there is something operating in that sphere, it is in a competition space.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Do not get me wrong; I would be the first to say a science centre is very important and significant for the State but I am just questioning the mechanism behind the issues in front of us.
I want to jump back in on the issue of measured term maintenance expenditure. We had a budget of roughly €20 million from 2018 to 2022, amounting to a total of roughly €120 million, for want of a better number. Obviously, a bit of money was spent in 2023 and 2024. Was that just an overlay from a previous period, or did it relate to unaccrued invoices or something?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay. In fairness, there was the matter of Brexit. I do not want to get into the higher-level detail but just want an overall view of how a contract like the one in question would work. Obviously, there would not be an annual fee. Would it just involve a fee for extra work? Would it be a monthly contract with additional-----
Mr. John Conlon:
It was a contract on the basis that the bidders would have bid per item and per job. I will let Ms Morrison give the Deputy the detail. It is a very detailed contract. Suppliers are asked to bid for many different types of work and products. Then that is used for pricing for the contracts that are put in place.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Brexit was referenced. Was the growth in price because of inflation?
Mr. John Conlon:
No. Additional work was done from the contract. The measured term maintenance contract, as I said earlier, is a reactive contract whereby we bring people in to do work, but the Brexit one was an exceptional one because the works needed to be done in quite a short period. That contract was used to do that work.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but what would be the relevance of Brexit?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Could I add something? As well as reactive maintenance, there could be planned maintenance, which could involve larger jobs such as the replacement of windows. However, there was also a provision in the contract for small-works projects to be carried out. I think there was a limit, possibly of €750,000. We examined this a number of years ago. Some of the projects undertaken were larger capital works projects. There was a further extension with the Brexit projects, some of which were quite substantial and above the initial threshold values expected under the contract.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The word “maintenance” is always used. There is also a reference to capital expenditure. Would there have been a bit of both? Would there have been capital items in the maintenance contract?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What would have been the largest project associated with the €120 million?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What crystallised in my head was works of a capital nature related to port requirements for Brexit. When Mr. Conlon referred to Brexit, I was just not sure of the position. I was asking myself whether the projects involved logistics or other works.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask one more question? How much of the €120 million would have related to works within the port region?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense. That answers many aspects of the question.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Since I was on the floor of the Dáil, I missed quite a few of the questions on the science museum. I am trying to understand what is going on. Mr. Conlon is telling me there is a board in place at the moment. Is ICML the correct name?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Where is that board situated? Does it have offices?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are Earlsfort Terrace and Iveagh Gardens related or connected? Forgive me for not knowing, but I am not from Dublin.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Does the board rent a room in the National-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was given rooms for free. I am very confused. The board is provided with rooms for free by the OPW. Does the OPW provide rooms to many different boards for free?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who are the people on the board?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just cannot get over the fact that the Government is paying for a board to have an office. No other board in the country would get an office for free. It is unbelievable, actually.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General wants to make a comment.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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These people must have very special powers to be able to stay in somebody’s building and not have to pay for it. Can we get the names of the people on the board? I would like to see who they are.
In 2017, did the Iveagh Gardens have a campaign to have 50,000 people sign a document stating they did not want the science museum there? Did the OPW take any of that into account? Did it consider the fact?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Conlon.
Ms Rosemary Collier:
There is a local community campaign around the Iveagh Gardens. It is a really important garden in Dublin that the OPW looks after. The OPW has a team that works there, cares for it and presents it to the public every day. There are people campaigning in relation to the gardens but the scheme we got planning permission for is based on the historical layout or historical relationship between Iveagh Gardens and Earlsfort Terrace. The OPW had a scheme for the children’s science centre based on the historical relationship between the gardens and Earlsfort Terrace. People in the community have different views and have campaigned on the basis of those.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was the science museum originally planned for the Iveagh Gardens or not?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So, it has nothing to do with Iveagh Gardens?
Ms Rosemary Collier:
No, but there is the extension, the new area. Mr. Conlon said the existing building on the north range of Earlsfort Terrace is about 5,000 sq. m. There is an extension to the children’s science centre into the garden, but, as I implied, the wall between the garden and Earlsfort Terrace is new. It was built during the 20th century. Originally, the garden and Earlsfort Terrace were together.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Government or any Department give anything to the board? Does any funding go to the board?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get the facts on that, or know for certain that no funding goes to the board?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just wonder how it is making the money. Where is the money coming from?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Very good. Are the people on the board being paid?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for that.
I want to move on to a local issue. It concerns my home town, Monaghan. There has been severe flooding there for several decades and it is continuing. Has the OPW any plan to alleviate the flooding?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Conlon.
Mr. Jim Casey:
We have a flood relief scheme planned for Monaghan town. It is to protect 47 properties. The total estimate for the project is currently €12.5 million. It is what we call a tranche 2 scheme. We had 150 schemes coming out of our national catchment-based flood risk assessment and management, CFRAM, programme in 2018 and we are rolling out the initial hundred under tranche 1. About 54 projects in tranche 2 will follow after we have delivered the first tranche. Unfortunately, the Monaghan scheme falls into the tranche 2 category.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would welcome its being looked into sooner rather than later because the town floods after every severe weather event. It is just not acceptable. Mr. Casey said there is a budget of €12.5 million to be spent, so I ask that the works be done sooner rather than later. Are towns not prioritised? I have looked at the list and noted that while a lot of money has been spent down south, Monaghan again seems to have been forgotten about and put second on the list, or down the list a bit.
I ask that the OPW would consider moving that up the list.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few questions. I wish to turn to the issue of vacancy within stock owned by the State under the trust of the OPW, such as the premises that we are talking about for the national science museum. A total of 5,000 sq. m is currently occupied. The C and AG in his chapter highlighted huge levels of unused and underused spaces. In relation to the space - the 5,000 sq. m - I did a quick calculation. I am surprised the OPW has not done this calculation on the potential value of that space. I did a quick search. Market values for rental in the city centre is about €600 a year per square metre. When that is multiplied by 5,000, that is about €3 million a year. Over 12 years, that is about €36 million in potential revenue if it was to be leased out commercially. While I am not arguing for that - it is a cultural centre - it is stark that a piece of property owned by the State in a city centre location is left vacant over that time. At the same time, the OPW is purchasing other buildings in the city centre. I just want to ask about----
Mr. John Conlon:
I have one comment on that. The National Concert Hall - Earlsfort Terrace complex will get considerable investment over the next number of years, both in a new discovery centre that is being built, which will start early next year, and the bigger National Concert Hall development. The concert hall itself will get considerable investment over the next number of years. On the north wing thing, it has legally been earmarked for the national children's science centre. If it is not used for that, there are other potential uses we can make of that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are other potential uses. I welcome all and any investment in the National Concert Hall. I glad to hear that, but I am talking specifically about the north wing and those costings or a rough calculation to put some perspective on that. Waiting on a process that has no end in sight is the concern.
On other locations, are the OPW offices in Trim where its headquarters is?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a fairly considerable site down there?
Mr. John Conlon:
It is a building that has been in use since 2009. It accommodates over 400 or 500 staff. A lot of them are from the OPW. We have agencies in there as well. We have Garda civilian staff in there. Some of the Office of Government Procurement is in there as well. It is a well-utilised building.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is well utilised. Is it utilised to its maximum potential? What kind of vacancy or unoccupancy is within that premises?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. Another premises that is leased by the OPW - or I am informed that it is - for An Garda Síochána is a premises known as the Plaza Complex, east and west, in Tallaght. It is opposite the Garda station. Is Mr. Conlon familiar with that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect him to have the information. He might come back to us with a note on that. I am informed that only half of the spaces are being utilised but there is a high cost to the OPW in renting that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Kenny raised the issue of two properties in the Phoenix Park owned by the OPW and the arrangements that were there in place for the former Garda Commissioner utilising one of those spaces. There was some media over the summer about six residential properties in Phoenix Park. Are the two that were discussed earlier separate?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Are there an additional six within Phoenix Park? How many properties are in Phoenix Park?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There are 55 residences within the Phoenix Park. Are they all on an official asset register held by the OPW?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon might furnish details on how many of those are vacant. On the arrangements in respect of renting, what kinds of contracts are they? Are they similar contracts to what we heard earlier in relation to-----
Mr. John Conlon:
No, we can provide a note on this. There are different arrangements. Some residences in Phoenix Park are occupied by people and it is as part of the conditions of the employment and emolument of the post. For example, there are certain jobs in Phoenix Park, such as a deer keeper, where they are required to do certain works. We provide the house and a yard, so they can do that work. If they are gatekeepers or doing security would have reduced rent applied to them. Others would have other rents applied. It is a varying type of arrangement in terms of the type of work they do and the type of emolument in what they have.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The media report suggests that average rents across some of the houses could be as low as €135 per month. Is that accurate?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that only being looked at now?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Conlon to provide some details on the properties that the OPW has within the Phoenix Park – this media report stood out to me – and all properties across the State that are rented out------
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Conlon to provide to a note. That report stated that the six properties in Phoenix Park did not exist on any publicly available official asset register. Mr. Conlon said they are on a register.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to other properties that the OPW has across the State, not just residential but other properties, such as former Garda stations, etc., while I do not expect the witnesses have the information to hand, they might provide a comprehensive list to the committee of vacant State-owned properties.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware of the process. I have seen it in my constituency. A former Garda station in Ashford has been handed over to the county council for a community asset. I ask the witnesses to provide us a note on how long the property has been vacant as well. That would be-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There was a tender last year for a PR contract to the value of €600,000. Mr. Conlon pulled that tender. Will he provide us with some information as to whether that tender has gone out subsequent to him pulling it or what the rationale for pulling it was? It seemed like a high tender in the first instance.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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"A lot of that work"? Is there still some outsourcing?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is the stuff that is being outsourced subject to a new tender?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Would that include media monitoring or PR training?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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All that type of stuff. including media monitoring. Does Mr. Conlon have any figures?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Conlon might provide us with a note with that information.
I know Mr. Conlon came into the organisation over a year ago. It is probably a challenging time for him, given there has been much misuse of taxpayers' money. Members have alluded to some of the issues, such as €1.3 million for a security hut; €336,000 for a bike shed; the wall at the WRC that cost €490,000; the children's museum with an exposure of €70 million and rising; the retirement function of the previous chair, which cost over €750,000, of which over €600,000 has been repaid; and nearly €35,000 spent on the leadership course by the previous chair when he was due to retire. For me and, I am sure, many people watching this, this seems to have gone on forever. It seems to me that there was a blasé approach to spending taxpayers' money within the organisation. Does Mr. Conlon think there was a blasé approach? What was the culture within the organisation when he took over?
Mr. John Conlon:
The Cathaoirleach highlighted a number of instances but we must all remember, and it has been alluded to in various comments over the past three hours, that the OPW does a huge amount of work across the country. Our staff are hugely committed to the work they do. We deliver a huge number of contracts every year and a huge amount of building works and maintenance and we do that to the highest standards we can. We are improving our governance processes but I have to defend the staff regarding the work they do. They do it very professionally and very well. Given the scale and amount of work we do, we will every now and again hit a slippage but we are determined to work to the highest standards. We have good governance processes in place and continue to prove that. The management board and the senior management team are constantly and consistently focused on that. Our staff work every day across all areas of work. They work weekends and night time. The Cathaoirleach spoke about Phoenix Park. We have people working there who are always available on call whenever stuff happens up there. That is the type of stuff I see every day as I go around the country.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I concur with Mr. Conlon and commend the work that goes on within the OPW and the staff, who do phenomenal work across the board. I talk about culture. Culture comes from the top down through an organisation. That is why I asked that question. It is not to cast a shadow over any other people within the organisation. The buck has to stop somewhere; it stops with the chair of any organisation. When the level of wastage within the organisation highlighted by the number of issues I raised exists, it says to me that there was a culture-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is there any live project that about which Mr. Conlon has concerns that could undermine all of the work he is trying to do to overcome what happened with the bike shed? Is there a live project that keeps him awake at night that could suddenly reveal itself? He called them slippages. Is there something else like that that could emerge that gives him pause for concern?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I return to a comment I made earlier about the turnover of the children's museum. I have its 2024 financial statements. Its total expenditure in the year was €256,000. It is similar to the figure in 2023, which was €259,000. On the revenue side, there was income of around €207,000 on charitable activities and in-kind income of around €60,000 in 2024.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for that clarification.
That concludes our engagement with the Office of Public Works. I thank Mr. Conlon and his officials for attending today and I also thank the officials from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation and the Comptroller and Auditor General for their attendance. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.
The next meeting of the committee is at 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 4 December 2025 when the committee will engage with Inland Fisheries Ireland.