John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You are all very welcome to today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through as follows.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

The agenda for today is to discuss the accounts and statements, correspondence, and upcoming meetings. We will then suspend and begin the engagement with officials from the Office of Public Works.

The minutes of the meetings of 13 November and 20 November have been agreed and will be published on the committee's website.

No. 6 is accounts and financial statements. Two sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 10 November and 21 November 2025 and are due to be considered today. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these financial statements before opening the floor to members.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

A Chathaoirligh, as you say, there are two sets of financial statements. First, the financial statements of the Local Government Fund for 2024 received a clear audit opinion. Second, the financial statements of An Chomhairle Ealaíon, the Arts Council, for 2024 received a clear audit opinion.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you for that, Mr. McCarthy. Do members wish to comment on either of those sets of accounts? No. Okay. Is it agreed to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? The listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

Moving on to correspondence, we will now consider B, items of correspondence, which have been received from Accounting Officers and Government bodies.

The first item, No. R0322, is correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Health, dated 20 October 2025, providing information requested by the committee in relation to the new national maternity hospital. Is it agreed to note and publish that item? Agreed.

No. R0337 is correspondence from the chief executive officer of Tusla, dated 18 November 2025. This is a response to information requested by the committee at its meeting on 2 October 2025. Is it agreed to note and publish this item, although some parts will not be published due to sensitivity? Agreed.

No. R0339 is correspondence from the chief executive officer of Children's Health Ireland, dated 18 November 2025, in relation to non-compliant ICT procurement in 2023. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed.

No. R0343 is correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, dated 18 November 2025, in relation to an external review of the Department's governance of the horse and greyhound racing fund. We have to go back to the Department to clarify whether or not that can be published. Is it agreed that we will hold off on that? Okay.

No. R0346 is correspondence from the HSE communications and public affairs division, dated 18 November 2025, providing a response to information requested at the PAC meeting on 16 October 2025. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed.

No. R0371 is correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, dated 25 November 2025. Deputy Geoghegan wishes to flag this.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Chair, you will recall that when representatives of the Department of justice were before us I raised the issue of who is legally responsible in respect of carrying out age verification for unaccompanied minors in IPAS settings. None of the officials who were present on that day could clarify as a matter of law who is responsible for that. It was made very clear to every member of the committee that it was Tusla's responsibility. We submitted this question in writing by way of follow-up. I should note that we were told on the day the officials from the Department of justice were here that they would respond to us on that day. It has taken a number of weeks, and in the reply they have given, which is in this letter, it is crystal clear that the statutory responsibility for carrying out age verification is an obligation vested in the International Protection Office that, as a matter of practice, it has transferred over to Tusla, it seems, for a number of years.

Perhaps this was something that was manageable in a different era but at this time over 500 unaccompanied minors have entered Ireland this year who are in the care of Tusla. That is an increase of about 13.5% while the overall numbers are going down. When Tusla was before the committee, it made clear its real and serious concern. The reply given to us by the Department of justice says that this issue will be dealt with in future legislation and that the new entity that will be established in relation to the migrant pact will have the responsibility. In the meantime the issue remains. It is a very serious and live issue. I want to note that. I also want to suggest we write back to the Department of justice. It would not provide us with the number of children for whom Tusla disputed their age and had referred back to the IPO so I think we should write back to the Department to clarify the number of children, or persons, over the past three or four years in the care of Tusla where Tusla has contacted the Department expressing concerns about age and age verification and the number of those age verifications that have been carried out. At this stage, maybe it is not really a matter for the public accounts committee but there are serious issues here that require intervention at ministerial level on the important issue that we uncovered here at the committee. I suggest we write to the Department of justice and follow up on that basis.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Geoghegan. I am happy to support him on that. He has raised a number of issues that merit clarification. I would agree with that proposal. Is that agreed?

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Agreed.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We will proceed on that basis. I thank the Deputy.

We will move to No. 8 which is the work programme. Next Tuesday and Thursday, 4 December the committee will examine the financial statements 2023 and the Comptroller and Auditor General special report 118 – governance, internal control and value for money issues of Inland Fisheries Ireland. Is that agreed? Agreed.

As there are no items under any other business, we will suspend until 10.30 a.m.