Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Senator Mike Kennelly. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute their microphones when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off.

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On the agenda for today's meeting is a discussion on apprenticeships. With us are Mr. Bryan O'Mahony, uachtarán, Aontas na Mac Léinn in Éirinn, AMLÉ, and Mr. Ben Friel, president, National Union of Students, NUS, and Union of Student of Ireland, USI. I almost said Brian Friel. From the Connect Trade Union, we have Mr. Brian Nolan, assistant general secretary. From the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, we have received apologies from Mr. Liam Berney, industrial officer, but Mr. Paul Gavan, campaigns and advocacy officer, is present. The witnesses are all very welcome. I call Mr. Friel from AMLÉ to make his opening statement.

Mr. Ben Friel:

I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to speak today. I represent AMLÉ, which speaks for over 300,000 students across the island of Ireland. I am especially grateful for the opportunity to speak about apprenticeships, because they matter deeply to our economy, our communities and those who choose this path. It is important to say at the outset that apprentices are not a single group. If I asked members to picture an apprentice, some might think of an 18-year-old training as an electrician. Others might think of a 35-year-old mother retraining for the benefit of her family or someone doing a degree apprenticeship. All these are correct. Apprentices come from every walk of life, and they have different goals and different needs.

I know this because I was an apprentice. I completed a technology degree apprenticeship in the North, combining study with industry experience. It was exciting but challenging. Balancing work and study was demanding. Costs mounted quickly. Many of my peers struggled, particularly those in more traditional industries. My employer invested in my development and treated me as a professional in training, but not every apprentice has that support. There is a stark contrast between degree apprenticeships and more traditional craft programmes. Degree apprentices often face integration challenges in higher education. Many report feeling invisible on campus and excluded from supports. Unlike in Northern Ireland, they may also be required to pay student contribution fees of up to €1,000 per college block.

Traditional apprentices, meanwhile, face low pay and the cost of paying for their tools, travel and, sometimes, accommodation for training placements. A basic electrician toolkit costs €1,000. On the Irish apprentice minimum wage of €7.16 per hour, that requires about 140 hours of work or nearly a month’s wages before rent, food or travel are paid for. These are not abstract figures; they are real choices. Some apprentices put tools on credit cards and spend years paying them off. Others rely on family support, which not everyone has. Many turn to second-hand tools, which creates a bigger imbalance. It is not just the cost of tools. The cost of travel to training centres, childcare for older apprentices and even protective clothing add further strain.

One apprentice told us they felt invisible on campus and excluded from student life because timetables and supports were designed for full-time degree students. Another simply told us, “I learned a lot, but I also burned out”. These are systemic barriers. Degree and traditional apprenticeships involve different challenges that require tailored solutions. Even with these differences, however, apprentices often face some of the same struggles, including: financial vulnerability where pay is low and costs are high; recognition gaps where apprenticeships are still too often seen as second-class compared with university students; and access barriers, especially for those in rural areas who face long travel and accommodation costs. For example, people who live in Sligo but get assigned to do their education phase in Dublin suddenly have to sort out accommodation in Dublin even though they have options to study locally in Sligo. That just puts extra stress and financial pressure on students.

Despite these barriers, apprenticeships remain life-changing. They open doors to skilled work. They connect education with industry and they widen access for people who might not see university as the right path. This is why it is vital that we get the system right. From an apprentice perspective, that means three things. The first is fair treatment. Apprentices must be supported as learners as well as workers, with pay and supports that reflect the costs they face. No one should start a career already in debt just to have the right tools. The second is that they need a stronger voice. Too often, policy is made about apprentices rather than with them. If we want programmes that succeed, apprentices must shape how they are designed and delivered. The third is parity of esteem. Apprenticeships should never be seen as a fallback option. They must be respected, supported and celebrated as a first choice equal to any other route in education. Apprenticeships can transform lives and build the workforce Ireland urgently needs. However, apprentices cannot do that if financial barriers and social stigma hold them back. Supporting apprentices properly is not only about fairness for individuals. It is about strengthening our economy and our society.

Again, I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute today. I look forward to working together on building an apprenticeship system that truly delivers on its promise and potential.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

On behalf of ICTU and Connect Trade Union, I thank the committee for the invitation to speak on the issue of apprenticeships, which is dear to our hearts. I am the assistant general secretary of Connect Trade Union, which is also referred to as the apprentices' union. I am accompanied by Mr. Paul Gavan from ICTU.

In recent years, two separate systems of apprenticeships have been operating in Ireland. I will take this opportunity to provide the committee with our perspective on each system and to comment on the Government's ambition to create a single integrated system.

Committee members will be familiar with the craft apprenticeship system, which currently accounts for approximately 85% of apprentices in training. The craft system has operated for decades and has a number of robust characteristics which support its effectiveness. For example, the system is underpinned by legislation; qualifications that are attained through the system are very high - they are level 6 on the Quality and Qualifications Ireland scale; and training of apprentices is done on the job and in the classroom. The Irish craft system of apprenticeship has, over decades, produced highly skilled workers. These workers continue to be highly sought after, both in the domestic labour market and abroad.

More recently, the Government introduced a new model of apprenticeship. This is referred to as the consortium model of apprenticeship, and it was proposed in order to expand apprenticeship training into new areas. The fundamental difference between the craft system of apprenticeship and the consortium model is that the latter is predominately employer led and does not have the robust governance system that is associated with the craft system. The Government recently requested that the national apprencticeship office, NAO, make recommendations on how a new, single, integrated model of apprenticeship might be developed. The NAO is in the process of developing a proposal for the Government, and initial discussions have taken place with employer and union representatives at the Labour Employer Economic Forum.

It would seem however, that the direction of travel of the proposed new integrated system favours the adoption of many of the elements of the consortium model and moving away from the system supporting craft apprenticeship. We would have very significant concerns about this. A number of new apprenticeships have been developed under the consortium model. While they have attracted apprentices in the initial stages, the numbers in subsequent years have fallen significantly and are well short of the targets set. In contrast, the number of apprentices coming through the craft system continues to grow.

It is important to point out that the UK Government has decided to abandon the employer-led consortium model in favour of a system that is almost identical to our current craft system. This decision was taken following a dramatic increase in the dropout rate among apprentices in the UK, which has increased to 47%. It is important to put on record that unions do support the expansion of apprenticeship training into new areas. It is crucially important, however, that any reform of the apprenticeship system should be guided by the overriding principle of making apprenticeship an attractive option for young people and other learners. Any reforms should be implemented in a way that will not damage the overall quality and functioning of the apprenticeship system.

Before concluding, I would like to address the issue of pay for apprentices. It is extremely important that clarity is brought to how pay for apprentices is to be determined. Traditionally, pay has been determined through collective bargaining whereby all apprentices, regardless of their employer, would be entitled to same basic minimum rate of pay. These rates of pay are reflected within the training allowances paid during off-the-job phases of apprenticeship. It is also important that pay is not a barrier to somebody taking up an apprenticeship. As a starting point, the Government should legislate giving apprentices the right to be paid the national minimum wage.

Thank you for listening. We will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in to speak to us. All I have seen since recently coming into this role is that there are issues with the apprenticeship system and that we need to overhaul it. However, I cannot understand why we are being led in this direction when some of the dropout rates are up at 47%. I do not understand why we would go that way. There are very good aspects of apprenticeships that should be kept, but we seem to be moving away from the model in that regard.

Regarding second-hand tools, would that not be a safety issue? Are tools tested to ensure that they are up to standard? They have no choice but to buy them. However, is that not a health and safety issue in view of the fact that they are probably not being checked?

Do witnesses feel the existing system has adequate supports for apprentices who might be experiencing difficulties like discrimination in the context of pay and a lack of satisfaction? I know wages are decided through collective bargaining, but who oversees that? Is that happening on site with apprentices? Are they afraid to go and speak to someone in case they lose their place because that would be detrimental to them? Are the same supports given to apprentices as those given to college students? Are they entitled to them? Are they aware of them or are they afraid to approach someone about it?

Has this week's budget done anything for apprentices? I cannot really see the details. They are very scant, so I cannot see anything happening there.

In terms of the age profile, apprentices are getting older. We have people with families and mortgages going into apprenticeships. We need 80,000 extra workers to homes. We need apprentices. What will entice them into it? I ask particularly about those in an older age bracket, because they would have families, mortgages and bills.

It was mentioned that employers could be calling the shots to suit their own standards rather than the national standards. Could the witnesses elaborate on that? I do not understand that.

Do witnesses think there should be more done at secondary school level to promote apprenticeships? As was stated, there is a stigma around apprenticeship. We should be going the opposite way. We need these people. We need to build houses. We need electricians and plumbers.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

There was quite a lot in that. If I miss anything, please come back to me.

We have heard that figure of 80,000 construction workers a lot. I am not sure whether it is high or low. There is no doubt that we do need a large number. There is a problem that we have had historically. We had this conversation 20 years ago. We will probably have it in another 20 years if we do not do something about it. During recessionary times, there is no emphasis on continuing apprenticeships. Really, that is when we should have the apprenticeships. If we were to pluck 80,000 workers from anywhere in the world and expect them to build houses for us tomorrow, relying on the apprenticeship system, it would take at least four years to do it. That may not suit the Government in the context of its term of office, but if people are serious about addressing the need for any of the 80,000 workers, they need to plan for recessionary times and continue the numbers going through training. In the main, the unions would be very supportive of that. Somebody needs to grasp the nettle and make that happen.

On the standards within apprenticeships, its not a matter of good apprenticeships and bad apprenticeships; they are different. Some of the consortium-led apprenticeships are excellent, and they work. Some of the accountancy ones have been fabulous and really well supported by industry. They kind of replicate by default what we have had in the craft system, albeit for a different type of work. To give an example, the most recent figures that came out from the NAO suggest that there are just over 29,000 apprentices in the system. Of those, 24,585 are craft and 4,694 are consortium led. That is across 77 programmes. Across 25 apprenticeships we have nearly 25,000 apprentices and for the remaining 52 apprenticeships we have 4,694 apprentices. That is an average of 90 apprentices per apprenticeship. That is not sustainable for those apprenticeships. The concern we consistently raise is, given we have a tried and tested model, why would we break that link and move towards one that fails? We referenced the UK and the dropout rate of over 40% there. Many moons ago, under Margaret Thatcher's Government the UK moved from a system like we had, to the system that is being proposed here. In our opinion, that is what decimated apprenticeships in the UK. They have now recognised that and are moving to the system we are talking about moving away from. We ask the decision-makers to consider that.

There is a lot of good in the apprenticeship system. We are not saying that everything is wrong; there could not be with 25,000 people in the system. We are building houses. We are building data centres, although they may be controversial. We have always had the ability to create what are recognised as the most highly skilled workers, which has helped the country during the best times and the worst times, in the sense that young people will travel. They can travel anywhere in the world with a craft qualification. They are sought after in Australia, America and all across Europe. The apprentices are that sought after now that they make up a huge cohort - it is thousands - of craft workers currently building infrastructure, data centres, pharmaceutical factories and hospitals across the Nordic countries and Europe. Irish contractors are the cream of contractors across Europe because of the standing of our apprenticeships.

There are things directly affecting the apprentices that really need to be focused on. The national minimum wage is one. Apprenticeships started over 100 years ago, and we have all the old indentures in our office which show that parents used to pay for people to become apprentices. They used to pay the master craftsperson to teach their child a trade. We have moved on from that. We now have young men and women in their 20s, 30s and 40s who want to do apprenticeships. They may have dependants. They are valued members of society. They may not want a third level education. They may not want to go through college. It may not be for them and they may have chosen the path of apprenticeship. We need to support them. Where we let them down is that we treat them like students in the first instance, as opposed to workers who go to work on day one and pay tax and PRSI and UFC, even on low rates of pay. Since 2014 we have had the apprentice-student charge. We have been quite vocal about seeking its abolition. There is no problem paying examination fees, but individuals are paying and contributing to society and their employers are paying en masse through the National Training Fund.

There was a lot in that. If there are any parts I missed, I will be happy to provide answers in respect of them.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentations. To what extent does Mr. Friel think the issue of the extremely low rates of pay for apprentices, combined with the pro rata fees people are faced with paying and what has been said about the cost of tools, are factors in discouraging young people from going down the route of apprenticeships? I ask the witnesses to give a picture of the kind of wage rates we are speaking about, particularly in the first year but also in the second year.

Mr. Ben Friel:

It is 100% a massive bar. Prior to coming before the committee we did our research and spoke to loads of apprentices. The main thing we were told about is the dropout rate. The people we spoke to knew many apprentices who dropped out in the first year because they could not afford the tools and were expected to pay big upfront costs. Deputy Murphy is 100% right that it is the low pay along with the fees and the price of tools. We are creating many barriers to entry. Payment of the national minimum wage is a must.

When we consider the profile of apprentices, they are getting older. Fundamentally, they are people with families. If we are looking to retrain our workforce, whether due to the rise of artificial intelligence or people taking up more careers than they did in years gone by, it is very important we recognise that not everyone has the bank of mum and dad to tap into and not everyone is an 18-year-old who can turn around and ask for support. Even among those who are 18 and 19, not everyone has that support. It creates massive inequalities and it is very important that we do everything we can to address it.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It would be a simple amendment to get rid of section 5(b) of the National Minimum Wage Act, which exempts apprentices. We would also have to get rid of sub-minimum wage rates for those aged under 20. Again this week, the Low Pay Commission has come out and said it is an urgent matter but the Government is saying it will not consider it until 2029. Do apprentices feel they are being treated like second-class citizens and second-class workers because they are paid €8 an hour in some cases, which is a fraction of the minimum wage?

Mr. Ben Friel:

How could you feel fully respected when you are getting a fraction of the pay for the same amount of work? When we spoke to apprentices we were also told about the type of work people were being given during the course of their apprenticeships. They are given menial tasks such as sweeping the floor and polishing the tools instead of learning the craft. It is all of these things combined. When people are paid significantly less how could they ever feel like they belong in the workplace or feel integrated into the career?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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My next question is for Mr. Nolan and Mr. Gavan. If they want to comment on my first question, I ask them to do so but I am also interested in exploring the quite worrying direction of travel they have pointed towards. Mr. Nolan commented on where this came from originally, which was from Thatcher in Britain. This should have alarm bells going off for any worker in this country. Mr. Nolan also spoke about how workers feel their training deteriorates and becomes about cheap labour. Will Mr. Nolan and Mr. Gavan elaborate a little bit as to how the consortium model is employer led? What does it mean that it is employer led? Why is it leading to such high rates of dropout? Where is this coming from? Who is pushing this?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

The fundamental difference between consortium-led and craft-led apprenticeships is that craft apprenticeships are always based on industry need. To be fair, even from the union's perspective we have to acknowledge the huge role employers play in apprenticeship. They deliver more than 80% of the training in the workplace so they are vital to the workings of it.

The need for an apprenticeship is dictated by industry need. I will give a quick example. Plumbing has been an apprenticeship for the longest time. Our pipefitters typically came from the plumbing industry but fundamental changes in industry need for pharmaceuticals, large data companies - not data centres but mass production such as the Intels of this world - and heavy industry call for more specific crafts in pipefitting and gas pipelines. This need in itself started a conversation in industry whereby stakeholders were brought together and training needs analysis and industry needs analysis were done to ask whether we will have jobs for people when we train them. The worst thing we can do is to train somebody to not be employable. A focus was put on this and the pipefitting apprenticeship was created. It has been hugely successful and is ongoing. It is fantastic.

With regard to consortium-led apprenticeships, there is potentially an idea from an employer but not necessarily groups of employers. They may come together and form a group over time. It could be a third level institute. Some of these apprenticeships we were familiar with as courses that were available off the shelf for many years. People could pay to do them but did not do so. They were rebranded and packaged as potential apprenticeships. There are various reasons for supporting them. Accounting technician is an excellent example because it appears to work for that industry. The industry stakeholders who came together at the time did it for the right reasons and just happened to get it right.

There have been proposals for various apprenticeships that we query. An example is road surfacing. Road surfacing is a profession but it is arguable that the people behind the apprenticeship and with an interest in it are the people who provide the products for making these finishings. Is there a demand for it? I do not believe there is. There are other apprenticeships that have not made the grade and have not got through. We have asked the vital questions. It has become harder and harder to have these conversations, to be quite honest. It is not led by the needs of industry; it is possibly led by the whim of individuals who think it would be good to have an apprenticeship.

The more alarming part is potentially in the hospitality sector. If an apprenticeship is not covered by the minimum wage then, arguably, the employer can pay anything as long as they pay something. Why would you put an apprenticeship into a profession that has always sought to pay less than the minimum wage, just to pay the minimum wage? Where is the long-term profession? The one thing that is key to all apprenticeships, and the one selling point every apprenticeship has, is transferable skills. People do not just become an electrician, a carpenter, an accounting technician or whatever it might be; they have the skills to adapt and go on to further education if they so choose. We have questions about this mode of apprenticeship. If it is only to push down rates of pay, then it is all the more reason to push the rate up to at least the minimum wage.

At that time the National Minimum Wage Act was being compiled there was input from trade unions. We were going from a platform where apprentices were not paid to having them paid something. This was the trade-off at the time. We understand fully why it was below the minimum wage in its time but that time has passed.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Mr. Nolan spoke about the dropout rate in the UK under the new model of apprenticeships. There was a lack of investment, many of the courses were slow and there was a long line for training. I understand why that was not hugely appealing to people. I am looking over at Mr. Friel and I can see why it would not be hugely appealing to students. While there are concerns, I hope we can take the lessons from that in trying to combine the two systems here.

I want to ask about integrating the systems. This is essential to making the whole area more attractive so people apply for and consider apprenticeship. What are the priorities of the witnesses in the integration of the systems? From their perspective, what are the good things about the consortium system and the craft system that we should try to capture to create a better system overall?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

Not to sound facetious but the most important part of it when we speak about industry is that without employers and workers there would be no need for apprenticeships. Every other component that is added to apprenticeship, be it ETBs, third level institutions or the educators, can make it better. They are so important in making it world class but we should never lose focus of it being industry led, and the stakeholder investment in this is so important. There is possibly a criticism on our part in respect of the newer groups. It is a case of having people sit in rooms rather than the actual stakeholders having the conversations. We need to get back to that.

There is nothing to say that consortium led is wrong or bad and I do not want to pit one against the other. In the established system there is quality assurance around craft apprenticeship. We can always do better, and we are open to seeing the apprenticeship model involve. With regard to payment, all apprentices in craft apprenticeships are paid in the workplace and for off-the-job phases.

The make-up of that is between the State and the employer. The consortium-led model is all employers. We could have a different argument about that and I am sure employers in that sector would. I think that might be off-putting for employers and maybe this is why the numbers are lower. I do not think there is a huge dropout rate in the consortium-led apprenticeships.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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No, not at all.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

I think the reality is there is not enough pick-up in the consortium-led model. The question to be asked is why this is the case. By the way, I do not have the answer to that either.

There are a lot of learnings. The immediate narrative, though, was that we would move towards one system and that was predominantly a move to the consortium-led approach. Now, maybe that conversation could change and it could perhaps move more towards the other model. It would not be for the sake of winning or losing an argument but about taking the best of both systems. We are 100% supportive of doing that. It is what we want. We want to have the world-class system we have and retain this standard, or improve it if there is any way to do that.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I have a similar question for the other witnesses and follow-up questions. Before I was elected to this House, I was a lecturer in TUD, but I also taught out in Blanchardstown, which was very apprenticeship-focused. As such, I dealt with a different range of students over the years. How do we make it more attractive for students? I certainly feel that one of the barriers with apprenticeships is that it is just so much easier to fill out your CAO form and list courses from one to five. You have to do to a bit of work to actually get involved in the whole apprenticeship system. The accounting apprenticeships were mentioned. It is possible to either go to college and do accounting or go through the apprenticeship route. An awful lot of people who wanted to be an accountant used to end up in my classes, but that was not the right route for them and they might have been better off taking the apprenticeship path. That is one point. How do we make it more attractive and easier for people to go down the apprenticeship route? I would welcome some insights from a personal perspective.

Mr. Ben Friel:

I think that comes from second level education in terms of how we value careers in respect of the education we give students at that early age. It is going to take some work because we have to break the traditional cycle of a successful person being someone who goes to college, does a full-time degree and goes and gets a job. That is the life being drawn out for people. It is important that we are stepping in at second level and educating students that doing an apprenticeship is an option at third level, whether it is immediately after the leaving certificate or in some of the consortium models. The big challenge is how we can educate people about how doing an apprenticeship is not just a fall-back option but an alternative path. Part of this comes down to the pay conversation we were having earlier. When I did my apprenticeship in the North I heard the phrase "earn as you learn". I was thought that was great. It was perfect because I could not afford to go to college in the North. Being in the North also means I have no college debt and I have a full undergraduate degree. There were lots of incentives there to pick that path. It is also huge for social mobility. If it was not for this possibility, I would never have gone on in education. It is really important, therefore, that we look at apprenticeships as a holistic picture and not just in the context of careers or pay or something else. It has to be all of it altogether.

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

It is also the cycle itself. Coming from a DEIS school, I was also told not to bother with university because I could not afford it. That was my story coming from a DEIS school. I was told to go for a PLC or maybe for an apprenticeship, but probably the PLC because it would probably be better. That is what career guidance in schools at second level is. This is about the parity of esteem between the two different disciplines, but it is also about the stories we hear. We hear about students in Waterford being told they are going on their education phase in Dundalk. That has happened and they have had to get accommodation when they go there. It is a problem not having a preferential educational phase and not being able to list what locations are easier for people to get to. People might not be able to study in Waterford but they might have family in Sligo and could go to ATU Sligo for the study phase instead.

I have heard stories from apprentices saying they cannot wait for the educational phase because their lecturer never shows up. A better response will come from how we treat apprenticeships as a culture within the education system and this can lead to students seeing this path as an option. It then comes down to the pay at the end of the day. A single mother with a mortgage and two kids has to look at what she can do for her family and if a retail job pays more than an apprenticeship and she has bills to pay, she will end up choosing to do retail rather than taking a drop in wages because she has to be able to feed her family.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate those insights.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses for being here with us. Mr. Friel stated that too often policy is made about apprentices rather than with them. We know the national apprenticeship office is looking at how a new integrated model can be developed. Is there a mechanism to consult with that office or for apprentices or the bodies that represent them to do so? The witnesses have identified some significant costs apprentices face. If there was a mechanism to consult, what would their suggestions be for addressing some of those costs? Would some sort of loans system be envisaged? What would they recommend to address the costs initially?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

I would stay away from a loans system. We want these people to built houses to benefit the community. This is a community good they are doing. This is helping the infrastructure of society. Having a loans system is not that way to go about it because then people will still have debt at the end of the day. Subsidies or grants should be in place to allow people to do an apprenticeship. We listen to the voices of apprenticeship voices when they come from the education cycle because they are the people we represent. They are very lost when they come onto a campus. They are on their own in completely different buildings sometimes. They do not know where the student services offices are and they never meet people from the students union to get their voices heard that way. There is two parts to the education system and they are not treated as regular students when they are in the educational cycle. They are kind of left on their own without supports behind them. They have no voice then because they do not know what the student union is since they have never experienced it. We have seen cycles where people have tried to look for union support and sometimes they have got a lash-back from their employer about it. There is definitely a cultural aspect that needs to change to ensure those doing apprenticeships feel like they can have their voices heard as part of the conversation. When we are looking at changing systems, we cannot have a conversation about somebody without them being involved in that conversation about change.

Mr. Ben Friel:

In terms of the conversation about the mechanism, in the North and the UK there is something called the National Society of Apprentices, where apprentices can have their say in education. We have looked at setting up similar structures here but there have been funding challenges. On mechanisms, they know where we are and what our email addresses are. In terms of setting up an apprentice voice, we are actively pursuing making that a reality so we have direct feedback from apprentices.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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It was stated in the second document submitted that there is a reluctance on the part of the NAO to include union representatives in the mechanism. Is that the case? What is the thinking behind it? We need to hear from apprentices on the ground about everyday struggles, what needs to be addressed and how to improve the system. Who knows that better than the people involved?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

Again, this is an area where we would be recognised as the apprentices' union. We are tagged that way. I do not say that loosely. We have offered free membership of the Connect trade union for a long time, since our previous incarnation as the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union. We see the value in apprenticeships, not just in society and industry but in the union as well. We are a craft union. We do, therefore, absolutely support apprentices. We have structures internally to meet and hear from our apprentices. We also take into account that apprentices have a view and a snapshot of a world within four years. A second-year apprentice could have different opinions from those in first year and from those in the third and fourth years as well. We also speak to people who come out of the programme and ask them what their experience was like and how it has impacted them. We have a representative on the National Apprenticeship Alliance. There are two representatives from ICTU.

There has been resistance from some of the consortium-led apprenticeships to having union representation. For as long as the apprenticeship system has been in place here, the worker-learner representative has always come from the trade union. That has always been the case and it is because we represent the workers and those people. I am not just referring to the apprentices but to the people who have to teach 80% of the apprenticeship in the workplace. We sometimes have to remind people that as much as there might be an ETB or third level institute, we are relying on craft workers in the workplace to share their skills to create the next world-class craft workers. We need their buy-in and we need them to support the whole concept of an apprenticeship. That is very important.

In terms of some of the deterrents, to be quite honest, I think there are some very easy fixes. We have sought the abolition of the apprentice student charge. I think it would make a huge difference if that was gone. Having the minimum wage as the minimum rate of pay would also make a big difference. What happens in the case of a lot of apprentices, and this is an experience that has not been shared yet, is that under the rules of an apprenticeship, somebody employed as an apprentice should be registered within two weeks. We consistently get reports from individuals eight months, nine months and ten months after they have started that they are still on sub-minimum wages. These people have been abused in that instance. There need to be sanctions for those employers because they have not adhered to the apprenticeship rules.

They should be either removed from it or dealt some sort of blow so it does not happen again.

There is one other of those simple issues. The training allowances that are paid for craft apprenticeships are directly related to the craft rates. They are directly linked to the ones we negotiate either through a sectoral employment order or national collective agreement for construction, electrical or mechanical so they relate. There is one cohort in there, an engineering group, that are supposed to be averaged about all that but for some reason known only to the Minister, that has not been applied it. That one has been dropped and has not been raised in over ten years. There is a whole bunch of apprentices in there who feel their pay has gone stagnant, and it has. We were very keen and wrote to the Minister in May. We got a reply back asking for a full agenda, which we provided. We are still waiting for that meeting. It is something I need to follow up on. It is disappointing that little things like that are allowed to fester. If they are dealt with, the attraction to apprenticeships becomes a whole lot different. There is a lot of good work being done on advertising apprenticeships. I cannot knock SOLAS, the national apprenticeship office or even the Minister and the Department. The world skills is a great showcase for all that can be done in apprenticeships. We let ourselves down by the simplest of measures here, doing the right thing, hitting the minimum wage target, abolishing the apprentice student charge and getting those rates up that should be lifted with time.

Another issue is accommodation for people who have to travel, as was rightly pointed out, if they are sent from Cork to Donegal, for example. The reality is that it will have to happen because we have limited facilities to deliver apprenticeships. People may not like that idea but others actually love it. The accommodation allowance has not moved in 22 years, despite the fact that we have highlighted it. There was a mechanism for raising it. It was the CPI and it has never been acknowledged. They are simple fixes that we could get over the line. I just do not understand. I know it all costs money and adds up. In light of the week that is in it, when it comes to budgets, us putting a hand out for more is always going to be seen as a problem. The simplest answer to nearly every question that has come up here is to fix the small things and the apprenticeship will retain its world-class status.

Mr. Paul Gavan:

I support what Mr. Nolan said. How could it make sense right now in the midst of the housing crisis that a first-year apprentice is paid €5 less per hour than someone working a minimum wage job? It just does not make sense and hopefully the committee can address it and make a recommendation.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions. It was very interesting and they have given us a lot to contemplate. There is a lot of common sense being spoken and strong, informed, evidence-based suggestions that we will be able to take into our deliberations in the work we do in the coming months. What is really striking for me is that we have a common goal of addressing the skills needs within our economy and ensuring that people are given an opportunity to go into vibrant careers and to thrive in their own right. In supporting apprenticeships, we are also supporting differentiated ways of accessing learning. I was struck by Mr. Nolan's comment that he was encouraged not to go for university and go into an apprenticeship by virtue of his socioeconomic circumstances. The same is probably true on the other side, whereby children from other backgrounds might be pushed towards university when it is not the right place for them at all. For many of our brightest young people, being confined to an academic setting is absolutely wrong for them and should not be where they are funnelled through. I thank the witnesses for giving us their time this morning to talk about apprenticeships. In my view and in the Government's view, they are absolutely critical to the economic development of the country and for a significant cohort of people in their own personal development.

I take on board all the points that have been made about minimum wage, abolition of the apprenticeship student charge and the accommodation allowance. Those are all things we will have to look at over the coming years. Hopefully we can remove as many of those financial obstacles as possible. I would just like to acknowledge that the Minister has this week in the budget given a record amount of funding to apprenticeships. He committed €79 million of investment in apprentices. It is indicative of the support and the direction of travel we would like to go in. Would either Mr. Nolan or Mr. Friel like to say a little more about the student experience of the consortium model? We have been given a little flavour of it on campus. Within the workplace, are there variances in how it is structured and how students are being treated across the different areas they are studying and across the different workplaces?

Mr. Ben Friel:

This might sound contradictory. The vast majority of apprentices do not know the difference in their lived experience. People know based off industries rather than based off what model they are studying. We went around looking for stories before we came here today. When we talked to those who are doing software apprenticeships here in Dublin, some of them were very keen to point out that they had a fantastic experience. Their employer was great and they really felt they were valued and invested in. There are some good stories. That is why we are so passionate about it. There are the good stories and good experiences but it is not consistent and that is the problem.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Within the different education centres, not just on the learning side of things but also on the very important customer service and student support side, are there variances in how the different universities and technical universities are handling and welcoming students?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

It changes from college to college. Some get more of an orientation, like in the traditional student cycle, where they are welcomed and told what supports they have. Others are very loosely brought in. They do not know what supports are there or what is on campus. If I go to Waterford, for example, they have a campus that is not even on the main campus. It is across a road, behind some buildings, and people have to go and find it. They have their own canteen so they are not even on the campus where all the supports are. They are not walking around and are not aware of it. They did not know where the social hubs were such as where there were pool tables and so on where they could spend their lunch times. Never mind between different colleges, the student experience of how they are treated on campus is very different from traditional students in what they are able to do socially, getting involved in clubs and societies and in accessing support services. A lot of them just put up with issues they are having.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I genuinely do not know. Are there divisions within the student unions? Are there pathways for apprentices to become involved in student unions and be more integrated?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

With the regular student orientation at third level, students' unions are involved in delivering on who they are, how to contact them and how to access them. When it comes to apprentices, a lot of student unions are not even aware of them when they start on campus. They are not made aware that apprentices are coming to the campus or asked if they would like to get involved with them. A lot of times students' unions would give out fresher's bags and stuff like that. We are not even told when the apprentices are coming to prepare those for them. It is hard for us to be involved with people we never even meet. How do we get to them or interact with them? By the time we know they are actually on campus, they are nearly halfway through their education phase and gone.

Mr. Ben Friel:

There is also the thing that it is trending in the right direction. When we meet the representatives from the local students' union, everyone is very keen to reach apprentices. My day job is representing all students in the North on their apprenticeship. I am the first to have done that. It is definitely trending in the right direction. Like Mr. O'Mahony said, it is about making sure we know when they start and that the colleges make the effort to tell us about the cohort, that is starts at this time and these are their phases, and invites us to reach out to them. There is a lack of information on our side rather than a lack of trying or wanting to reach those students.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to pick up on Senator Ryan's question. Mr. Friel said that timetables and support were designed for full-time degrees students.

How is that presenting itself through the apprenticeships? What does that mean in practice for their week in college?

Mr. Ben Friel:

When I said that, it was what Mr. O'Mahony was just alluding to, where the structure of the college itself and the expected interaction is what we can consider for a full-time student. There is a situation when somebody comes in for a phase and misses fresher's at the start of the year, is told what his or her options are, is there for a single block and has to leave again. Anyone in the room might think of when they went in, went to fresher's, moved into accommodation, met people, and their class was introduced. It is the broader picture, maybe less than the physical timetable of their day to day and more the timetable of how the year is structured.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It would be terrible to think that the administrations of the institutions are saying that they will put the apprenticeships on Friday evenings between 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. That would be disappointing. I am glad that is clarified. I gather that the Six Counties completed their own, but how many institutions in the Twenty-six Counties offer degree apprenticeships? Is that known?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

I do not have a number right now.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Am I wrong to assume that all the technological universities do?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

They should. I would have to check.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Do what might be called the traditional universities offer them?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

From my conversations with local student unions in universities, they do not interact with apprenticeships.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Do the traditional universities start apprenticeship programmes for the craft trades that would be needed to administer a university, such as electricians, plumbers and painters?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

For the longest time, the standard apprenticeship has had seven modules. If we look at it as odds and evens, phases one, three, five and seven are done in one place and phases two, four and six are done in an academic setting. Phase two would typically be in an ETB, which are very much trade schools and oriented towards that. Apprentices do not necessarily feel out of place there, but when they go to a third level institute, there might be a different set-up. Not every third level institute in the country provides access to apprenticeships. There are merits to it on both counts. Some of the institutes were very good at delivering the apprenticeship. Bolton Street, for example, was a big stable in Dublin. Kevin Street was another. They all form part of the technological university campus in Grangegorman. No faults there; it delivers a fantastic apprenticeship. There are third level institutes around the country with various different degrees of-----

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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On that point, do they actually employ young craft apprentices in the crafts that would be required to run any major building? Are the universities engaged in employing apprentice plumbers and electricians?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

Employment directly within-----

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

Very few. There are maintenance crews in a number of colleges. I know there are talks about apprenticeships in the public sector. My view and that of Connect is that the public sector has been missing a beat with apprenticeships, because if we take into account local authorities, education, the OPW and health, there could be a craft apprenticeship for the public sector. Imagine an electrician doing an apprenticeship and, over the four years, working in all those environments. By the end of that time, the State would have a great opportunity to look at somebody who is crafts-qualified in respect of working in the public sector, rather than the image of somebody going in and potentially being there until they are 65, and asking if we have that relationship with them. That changes. There could be somebody that services the actual needs.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Ryan touched on this. In his statement, Mr. Friel quoted a student saying they learned a lot but also burned out. Have the witnesses conducted formal research into the apprentices as they have concluded their programmes?

Mr. Ben Friel:

The short answer is "No", but we have explored doing that. We have done it in the Six Countries but not in the Twenty-six Counties. We have those connections. We are part of the European apprentice network, which is many EU and European countries coming together to discuss apprenticeships. We have many Irish apprentices, North and South, who attend that. We have a group of maybe 40 or 50 who we consult regularly but there has been no formal research yet. It is something that we have explored internally.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The most concerning theme of Mr. Friel's contribution included phrases such as "recognition gaps where apprenticeships are still too often seen as second-class" and "social stigma hold them back". How is that presenting? What are real examples of how that happens?

Mr. Ben Friel:

We see it all over the place. It can be seen when people first go to choose a career, and as Mr. O'Mahony was saying, careers advisers do not see it as a viable option. We can see it when we are talking to parents who did not grow up with it as an equal opportunity. When people are hiring, it is sometimes seen as a benefit because people have training and real world experience, but when it comes to social settings, whether in a classroom or in families, that is where we would see it present itself.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In this day and age, I would imagine that most places should have overcome that type of social stigma.

Mr. Ben Friel:

Unfortunately not. You would like to think so but that has not been the case.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Nolan said, "Any reforms should be implemented in a way that will not damage the overall quality and functioning of the apprenticeship system." What type of reform could be proposed that he has heard mooted that could do that?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

There has always been a process of monitoring the apprenticeship based on the needs of industry and it has evolved over time. There have always been mechanisms in place and there is no doubt that they will need to continue. If we get stale, we will be left behind the curve in the standard and delivery, craft by craft or profession by profession, depending on what it might be. There has always been good infrastructure around that and that needs to be retained. I am not as confident in the consortium-led stuff because it is really in its first version. It is quite new in its establishment. It is unclear what it intends or how it intends to manage quality assurance going forward. That is not to say it would not have a plan to do it, but we have an established process for quality assurance. It can always be modernised and updated. We are entirely behind that change. Sometimes we have an argument about something from a union perspective that can be seen as negative but we are not. We are absolutely supportive of what the State and stakeholders have done for apprenticeships and want to see that grow even further. We are trying to herald the good work that has been done to see it continue rather than diminished for some cheaper alternative.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I also welcome my former colleague, Paul Gavan. It is nice to see him back in the Houses again, on the other side of the fence, so to speak. It has been a very engaging discussion so far this morning. Many problems or issues are being highlighted from both the perspective of the student and the college life. We will be doing a report on apprenticeships at the end of our proceedings. In brief, if we gave the witnesses a blank page to write one paragraph of that programme, what would be their priority to change in the whole system, from the perspective of the college set-up, of students and of employer-apprentice relations? It would be a comprehensive report, looking at all aspects of apprenticeships. If they could write one paragraph of a request that could be delivered, what would they prioritise as the big change that they think is needed or would be most beneficial from the process?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

I would ask that any reform is handled with care. We have a brilliant, world-class system. Let us take the best of that and try to improve on that. On small changes, since I do not want to overrun in this one paragraph, I would ask that the small changes be addressed and given real consideration. There should be a move to address the national minimum wage, abolish the student charge and deal with the training allowances, which need to be updated. Those would be the simple reforms that we would seek. We believe that would make the apprenticeship more robust. Of course it would attract more people, but it might also work for the employers. I believe it does. I would argue, from our experience as a union, that employers have supported, in the main, our call to move towards the minimum wage. We have negotiated that in workplaces, so it is about time the rest of the apprenticeships caught up with that.

Mr. Ben Friel:

From our perspective, there are three small challenges, as Mr. Nolan put it, that would have the biggest impact by a mile. They are pay and getting rid of the student contribution charges.

That is where students and, more specifically, apprentices will see value. As the Senator said, it is a small change legislatively. It is about putting your money where your mouth is. If we are serious about developing skills and the economy, we need to invest in all forms of apprenticeships on the basis of whichever model. As Mr. Nolan said, it is about taking the best of both models to create a system that works for everyone. It is clear from what we have said today that we see the good parts of apprenticeships, as do employers. It is about asking how we maximise that and get rid of some of the less desirable qualities.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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If those changes were made, it would be more appetising for people to do apprenticeships. The biggest problem with apprenticeships is that there is, for want of a better word, a bit of a stigma. We need to overcome the mammy approach. The mammies of Ireland have a stigma about apprenticeships.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is putting down the mammies.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The mammies and daddies of Ireland. In my era, it would have been the mammies. The attitude was that Johnny has to do a degree and the parents dared not mention an apprenticeship. How do we overcome that? Slowly but surely, that is being diluted and we are growing out of it, but an element of it remains. We created that. We pushed it and tried to get everybody into third level education. We created an atmosphere where we in the public wanted more than apprenticeships. We looked for the bells and whistles and a high percentage of people going to third level. We forgot about apprenticeships and left them in our slipstream. We have now come full circle. How do we get back full circle?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

I could not agree with the Senator's statement about mammies. They are precious. I firmly believe that the view of apprenticeships is changing. We are always going to have pockets of people with that opinion. Ignorance is not an excuse, but sometimes people look at it a certain way. The move to consortium and the expansion of the apprenticeship base are positives for apprentices. Up to now, apprentices were viewed as people in high-visibility vests and hard hats who get stuck in and get dirty. We would refer to that as an honest day's work, by the way. The reality is that apprenticeships are getting broader and people see them for what they are.

We have thousands of electricians. The bulk of apprentices are electricians. There are 11,000 apprentice electricians of the 25,000 overall, so there is an imbalance there. They now have an opportunity when they qualify to go on to an electrical engineering degree on the basis that they have done the apprenticeship. That is where the merger of craft and consortium is perfect. If you were to sell how this works, that is the marriage to highlight. It works a treat. There is great potential. The individual who needs to hit the ground running and earn money, for whatever reason, can take on an apprenticeship and still get to where he or she wants to be as an engineer without going through a college. That is not selling out the college route but is providing an alternative that may suit different individuals for particular reasons. That is a great advertisement for third level education and apprenticeships. If we could harness that further, it would be better.

The Senator is right that there is a bit of a stigma and I do not understand why. It has passed in the main, perhaps due to the likes of the expos. Funnily enough, I went to look at the Worldskills Ireland competition. At the same time, the Higher Options event was on. The two events were on in two different parts of the RDS. It was obvious that there was a whole pathway of people going to one but not the other. The obvious thing would be to have them promoted hand in hand and to show the options. I hope, over time, we will overcome that. We hear anecdotes about the end result for craft workers or people who have done apprenticeships. They go on to various different professions. That is great. We have actors and politicians. Many people were originally craft apprentices. We are proud of them.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I like the way Mr. Nolan put actors and politicians together.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

I will stop before I say the wrong thing.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Friel, Mr. Nolan, Mr. O'Mahony and Mr. Gavan all very welcome. It is great to see Mr. Gavan here again. When his beloved Spurs won the Europa League this year, I was thinking of him.

Mr. Paul Gavan:

They are looking good.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I was delighted for him and for Spurs. I apologise for being late. The British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly will meet in London this weekend. We will bring together politicians from Stormont, the Oireachtas, the House of Commons, Scotland, Wales and the devolved areas. It will involve a lot of good work. I was off with officials and all my colleagues to be briefed. I am sorry to be late.

On the Sunday of the event, the Minister for further and higher education, Deputy Lawless, will talk about developing research, innovation and skills. It could be quite an appropriate subject. If there is anything the witnesses feel that I or my colleagues should raise, I ask them to let us know. It could be opportune.

Before politics, I had a hospitality background. We lost our way over the years, but we are now in a much better place. The target for apprentices has doubled from 5,000 to 10,000 and funding has been allocated by the Minister. That will help. When I was a Minister of State with responsibility for drugs strategy in the Department of Health, it was a pleasure to go the apprentice graduation ceremonies. There was great confidence, joy and pride among the mammies and daddies, families and partners. We have come an awfully long way. The witnesses have worked with the various stakeholders to ensure that happens. We can do a lot more, but we are in a much better place than we were ten years ago. I thank the witnesses for the work they do. They are the future. I used to always say when I was giving out certificates that I hoped the graduates would make a fortune. A trade is something useful. It is also a passport to working abroad for a few years, after which people may want to come back. I thank the witnesses for the great work they have done and for coming here today. I am sorry I was late. I have copies of their statements. Is there anything the witnesses think we should raise at the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly? If they want to send on an email, I would be happy to read it.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

If he has time with the Minister, the Deputy might take the liberty of giving him an elbow, a little nudge, and asking him if he will accept my request for a meeting. I would be more than happy to meet him. I would appreciate that.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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We can do that. The Co-Chair of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, Deputy Brendan Smith, can ask the Minister.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

I appreciate that.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise. I was with Deputy Feighan and we missed the earlier part of the meeting.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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It is great to hear from all the witnesses this morning. I thank them for their contributions. It is important to hear the different perspectives of each of the unions and the person experience of apprenticeships. I have a number of questions. We have had quite a full discussion so far. There is a housing crisis in the country at the minute. There has been a lot of discourse about construction workers and the need to build a pipeline of apprentices. Does Mr. Nolan or Mr. Gavan have a comment on how we can increase that workforce? Do we need to put a particular emphasis on that sector?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

A lot of work has to be done. As I mentioned earlier, a longer term plan must be put in place. We will always have difficulty with housing. I remember in 2012 I was doing the job for the union and was finding ghost estates. Who would have thought we would end up in the position we are now? We are in that position and that is the reality.

What we do not do well enough as an industry and a country is advertise the benefits of working in, for example, the construction crafts. We have a sectoral employment order for construction workers. For electricians, there is a national collective agreement. Plumbers and pipe fitters have their own agreement. Within those are good rates of pay. There are pensions, sick pay, death-in-service payments and various other benefits. There is no glass ceiling or gender pay gap. People the enter the industry, leave it for whatever reason and come back.

There is a natural progression that sees the increases are there when they come back. I do not think we advertise it well enough. I take on board the fact the union has to do its part as well. The reality is that there needs to be more of an effort to ensure the process of delivering the apprenticeship is swifter. We have had a lot of difficulty over recent years. To be fair, the national apprenticeship office has a lot of it in hand at the moment. However, it was not without its own problems even earlier in the year as regards the budget. There were classes delayed for phases 4 and 6, I think. If we are to address housing, which is an urgent issue, we need this apprenticeship to be as close to the four-year minimum period as it can possibly be. We can deliver the apprenticeship in four years, give or take a week or two. It cannot be any less. That is fine. That is what it is for the structure. We need to have those measures in place and funding and facilities to take an intake of apprentices as soon as they possibly can. Instructors are another problem. They need to identify and retain top-level instructors. It has been done before and it can be done. It just needs a bit of attention. If those things were in place, you would get the numbers through and start to tackle the 80,000. I am not quite sure about the figure of 80,000. I keep hearing it myself, but it could be more.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Following on from that, I hear the points made. Pay is obviously a huge issue, ensuring that apprenticeships are paid properly, with at least the minimum wage. Is there a country that does this best in the class? I know there is a lot of talk about the German model and their education system, where they look at this earlier at second level and in terms of where people are going. Is there a model to point at to say this is what we should be working towards?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

Not necessarily when it comes to intake. The world-class system we have is based on industry needs. The downside to that is when there is no work, there is no work. A lot of our members experienced that in the past during the recession. The ultimate pay cut is to lose your job. We know that. Different studies suggest that even in Germany, they have a payment method across the country whereby every apprentice gets paid a similar rate. Because those are related to the particular crafts they work in, the minimum wage would be that. To be fair, if we established the minimum wage as the basic entry level rate, there will be increases throughout the apprenticeships that are still negotiated through collective bargaining. We reckon that system would work here. The only bit that is failing us is the sub-minimum wage aspect.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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The student representatives mentioned how we can diversify those who access apprenticeships. Would they like to expand on that? We have had some discussion this morning about the emphasis placed on university education versus apprenticeships. I see that as an issue. Ultimately it should be about what somebody wishes to do with their lives and what they are skilled at and about valuing that equally. That would also help with dropout rates where people feel they can do the courses that best fit them. In terms of diversifying those who enter apprenticeships, how would they look at that? Do the representatives have any perspective from their own unions and those they represent? Is it predominantly those in university or is it a good mix of both?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

Looking at diversity, it comes down to how career guidance happens at second level. It is seeing how we can get different people, based on what they want to do rather than what they are forced to do. We see so many people pushed into university who are not suited to university. People who are pushed into post-leaving certificate courses are not suited to that either. They are just as qualified to go straight into university. It is about reformatting the career guidance level with consistency across the board regarding all levels of further education that are appropriate for them. What was the second question?

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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It was about those the witnesses represent. Is there an increase in apprenticeships?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

There are more apprenticeships coming but, again, it is that college cycle of not having the involvement there. We see we are increasing the number of apprenticeships across the country. We are increasing the numbers of them to make sure we are matching support levels to support them through that. The numbers are increasing and, as we said earlier, we are looking at different ways to get the voices of students heard during their education cycles.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise as I was at another meeting, which Deputy Feighan referred to, in connection with the work of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. It is good to see Paul Gavan back in the Oireachtas. He contributed well as a Member of the Upper House over the years and did very good work. I think one of the items Mr. Friel mentioned was travel to training centres. I represent counties Cavan and Monaghan and traditionally we do not have that big population base. Often we are caught between Dundalk, Sligo and Athlone. At times, when you do not have a centre close to you, you can lose out. In the context of travel to further or higher education, we rightly talk about access. We need better access for more people, particularly people from less well-off households. Often, however, access is about distance as well. Sometimes people form the view that something is not for them because it is far away or whatever. I know we cannot have a training centre in every county, but in the witnesses’ experience, is there a good enough spread of training centres with the new educational training board model and the new SOLAS model? Has that improved the spread of centres throughout the country? It is an issue we need to be cognisant of with regard to having relatively easy access because travel, as was mentioned, is a costly item nowadays and if a person has to get accommodation, that adds an extra burden.

In an earlier discussion on apprenticeships, reference was made to Youthreach centres. Are those sectors being targeted fairly robustly, although not aggressively, with a vigorous and proactive approach to ensure young people who graduate from the Youthreach centres may go on to apprenticeships? In Cavan Institute, we have an access officer who liaises with the local Youthreach centre and champions those students leaving Youthreach who want to go on to further education. It facilitates the pathway for those people into further education and on to higher education too. Are there enough apprentices coming from our Youthreach centres? Bear in mind, as we all know, the Youthreach centres are second-chance education. They have never been given the credit they deserve. Our Cathaoirleach did excellent work for Youthreach centres in the past. I know many of the students in counties Cavan and Monaghan who benefitted from the work of Deputy McGreehan when she worked in Youthreach centres. It is an area we need to ensure there is a good focus on. There is a huge amount of potential in those centres for people may not have been given great encouragement at home or elsewhere to pursue education, a trade or a skill.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

I am not aware of any statistics on the figures coming from Youthreach. There are some initiatives that have had some success in access to apprenticeships. TU Dublin, when it was in Kevin Street, ran a programme, as did other third level institutes. Ultimately, the difference between directing people towards something and securing the apprenticeship is that it relies on the employer to still offer the job at the end of that. That is the difference between an apprenticeship and going to a third level institute. That in itself causes a problem. The minimum entry level for most craft apprenticeships is five passes in the junior certificate. We now have a situation where employers, for their own reasons, will decide they want leaving certificate qualifications. They might be justified in some areas and there might be some arguments for it, but studies would suggest that is not necessarily the case. That is why it is set at five passes in the junior certificate. The reason I mention this is that, with the best will in the world, a lot of kids coming through Youthreach may not have the aspiration of the leaving certificate or beyond. To be fair, they are probably the group that would be stigmatised, out of all the groups.

A greater effort is needed to get buy-in from the employer side of this conversation to make the jobs available to them. That is the problem. They can do these pre-apprenticeship courses and sit in front of an employer who, at the end of an interview, says the candidate is not suitable for them. I do not have the stats on it but I do know that this is possibly the weakness in that whole process. At the same time, a school leaver could be in the frame of mind of doing an apprenticeship. There is no shortage of school leavers looking for apprenticeships, and there has not been a shortage of apprenticeships when you look at the statistics either. There are a lot of apprentices in the system based on the industry needs. I pointed out earlier that not all of them are working here in Ireland. A lot of them are working for contractors, mechanical, electrical and construction firms all over Europe because the demand for our craft is so high. We have an industry that is feeding the world with our craft workers as well. It is huge. It is all very positive in that sense in that there is work and that our skills are sought after, but it still presents that problem in the point about a young guy or girl coming through Youthreach that we need that end piece. That is the commitment to give them a chance.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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If an employer may need leaving certificate attainment, if a young person can come from Youthreach, go into a college of further education and get their qualification there, they are bypassing, so to speak, the leaving certificate. On their ability to get entry to further education and to qualify up to level whatever, I have known, worked alongside, helped and supported many young people who have gone from college in Cavan Institute or wherever on to primary degree and subsequently to postgraduate. That would want to be put aside in people's mind as well. There are other educational attainments that are extremely important as well. That should be recognised.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the national apprenticeship office, I have the submission on apprenticeships from Connect Trade Union. Considering unanswered requests, lack of engagement and the fact that not one concern raised by the trade unions in their submissions to the national apprenticeship office was considered or implemented in the plan, what needs to change here with the national apprenticeship office? To hear that not one submission was heard or implemented is quite shocking considering the witnesses are the guys on the ground who know best. Do the witnesses think the budget did enough? Who oversees that the wages are being paid correctly for each apprentice?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

In terms of the budget, it is about what it has done for the individual. For the apprenticeship system, a massive amount is being invested in it and that is welcome without a shadow of a doubt. We have to deal with the issues we have raised about minimum wage and those things. I think it was €500 in relation to the student charge or whatever that might be. I do not know how that will filter down because it was previously paid pro rata. It is not going to make a huge difference. Any difference is always welcome, of course it is. I do not want to be negative.

When we make submissions, and we do have a view of the world, we do not expect that everyone turns around and says Connect Trade Union is right because it has a view of the world. We do understand there are different views and we have to work around that, but we do expect to be heard as the worker-learner representative. More and more, we find that the make-up of any group that is formed seems to dilute the role of any union involved, from worker rep to maybe having a seat or not, as the case might be. There are different groups. One form of group that was put together at one stage even suggested parents of secondary school kids, which is laudable in ways and concerning in another way. People may just have a view, and the world is full of opinions, but they have to be qualified opinions when talking about something that is going to shape the future of generations to come in terms of their qualifications. The obvious thing is they need to listen to us and at least give us the opportunity to have that say. If it is just the sharing of views, that is fine and we are happy to do that. We have never baulked. We have always been involved in every structure.

I was involved in the national apprenticeship advisory committee, which was one of the most important bodies, advisory to the boards of SOLAS and FÁS and AnCO prior to that for the purpose of apprenticeship. It dealt with appeals, the legal challenges that possibly presented themselves and everything. It worked and it represented all stakeholders. The union only had its seat. It was not an over the top when it came to unions. A large amount of employers had their say from all the various sectors, but we have gone away from that somewhat. It is a committee for all, but the function is not necessarily delivering.

Mr. Paul Gavan:

What we are looking for is balance. When you look at the success of the craft trade unions and the system over the past 60 years, it is a success. Trade unions have been central to that success. We are just expressing a concern that this balance needs to kept. The place for trade unions needs to be kept. It is essential.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am coming back to Mr. O'Mahony and Mr. Friel around the student experience. I would agree. Blanchardstown campus had one building that was the apprentice building and most people never went into it at all, which was quite weird. I agree that the physicality of things can result in a lack of integration. From their perspectives, is there anybody on the student unions who would, as part of their role as an officer, represent the apprenticeship groups?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

At the moment, no. We would see that there are some student unions that want to increase the engagement. They are looking at ways of how they can do it. Going back to the orientations again, it is such a defining factor. We have orientations for international students, whether it is semester 1 or semester 2. When the access group is coming in, they might have their own orientation. When the first years come in, they have their own orientation. The apprentices never get an orientation or welcome to the scale that the average student does. It is a disparity that we are struggling to trying to get to access them, to try to meet with them and to see how we can best represent them. We can make assumptions of what they need. Until they are in the room with us and universities and colleges within the education cycle see them as a priority and treat them as any other student who deserves that same welcome, integration and supports and to know where the supports are and where they can access things, that is going to be the biggest cause of an issue for us.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I have a follow-up question to that. There is an awful lot of part-time students, evening students and students like that on campus. They always complain that they do not feel part of the institution and do not feel as welcomed. I was a lecturer and I used to hear all of this. Is it a particular issue with apprenticeships or is this a failure of all the third level institutions in dealing with these non-full-time undergraduate students?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

There are definitely part-time and online students who are not seeing the same. From my experience, the part-time students get a more informed welcome pack of where supports are and stuff like that. They feel like they are more part of the cycle because they are students and are part of the student union. For apprentice students, within the college cycle, there is no apprentice office they can go to. There are offices for part-time students and lifelong learning students that they can go to for support, but apprentices are really left to the side.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I do not know if there will have enough time to answer but I will ask the question. In terms of the pay, I hear the arguments. I have had students myself. Students can work 30 hours in retail while doing a degree, so why would they do an apprenticeship and take less? I totally get that. From the employer's perspective, employers have said to me that they can understand from their perspective, but this is someone who is a trainee. They say they are not as productive, plus they lose the supervisor who has to train this person in. Some employers, particularly smaller employers cannot afford to take someone on if they had to pay the full minimum wage. How do we fund that? Maybe it is a funding issue.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

It will vary from employment to employment. There will be arguments. There always is, even when talking about pay in general. There are employers that will plead inability to pay. That is a fact of life. Some will pay more than others and so forth. If you look at where the greatest cohort of craft apprentices is, because I know the consortium might be slightly different in different types of employment, approximately 11,000 or 12,000 of those apprentices are electrical. Not all of those are in electrical contracting but a cohort is. Most of the plumbers and pipefitters are in contracting. Construction would be in construction. In those instances, we have secured at least a commitment from the employers to engage in a potential renegotiation of apprenticeship rates of pay. We are looking at the dynamic about the four years of apprenticeship and how we can bring them up and potentially slow down the speed at which the higher rates move. That is a potential trade-off. Yes, it will come at a cost. There is no doubt about that, but it might not come at as big a cost by rebalancing the pay over the four years, if that makes sense.

We are open to exploring all those things with employers. That is what we do best as trade unions, but we do not see it as it will be as easy just to pay up.

The concern on the consortium end of it is potentially some of the professions that would be considered for a consortium-led apprenticeship are employments that, at best, pay minimum wage. You are talking about a situation where you are creating an apprenticeship to attain minimum wage. There is something inherently wrong with that by design. Those are the two concerns.

I get what the Deputy is saying. We do not deny the fact we are effectively saying that wages should increase - there is no doubt about that - but we are saying it is for the right reason of apprenticeship and promotion, sustainability and, for example, addressing housing.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I totally buy into that as a strength to manage that other side. I thank Mr. Nolan.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have one further question on the lack of diversity among people participating in apprenticeship programmes. We heard previously that less than 10% of apprenticeships are female. Does the social stigma that Mr. Friel referred to compound the willingness of some of the minority groups to participate in apprenticeship programmes?

Mr. Ben Friel:

Yes, but it is also what industries are apprenticeships in and the make-up of those. North of the Border that is not the case. Female apprenticeships are a lot higher, in terms of proportions. There is something there.

It is one of the things about minorities. When we talk about minorities in general, if there is a small stigma for those who are convincing the people to take that route, it is magnified when it comes to minorities. I 100% agree, whether that be gender balance or whether that be race or things like that.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Friel.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I have some final questions. We talked a lot about promotion of apprenticeships and that there needs to be more work done there. What does that look like in an ideal world? How do we really promote it, and at what levels?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

On one piece of promotion, I am probably speaking from personal experience here as well in terms of dealing with some of our apprentices, some of our qualified craft workers and maybe looking a bit closer to home with my own children in terms of where their future might be. I have two that are involved in education and one young lady who is about to do her leaving certificate and is talking up the idea of an apprenticeship without me having to promote it whatsoever, which is great. Obviously, her route has been slightly different from those of the older two because she is looking at that. I am conscious of that and I am trying to dig down into what that is.

I have concern about the way we promote it, in particular, in trying to deal with diversity. As a union, we are predominantly male because we are a craft union and, historically, they have been crafts. We make every effort to try and change that. There are huge efforts made to promote female participation in apprenticeship.

The problem somewhat is not every girl wants to become a poster for apprenticeship either, and that tends to happen. When a young lady comes into apprenticeship, she suddenly becomes the face of a company and the face of apprenticeship. They want to be the apprentice but it needs to be seen as the norm, not as "You can be like Mary". They want to be like every girl that is in an apprenticeship or in a craft. There is a body of work that has to happen and time will help with that. I suppose we have the reverse dynamic that possibly nursing unions would have in the sense that people might a view that they would be predominantly female. It is something we ourselves have to look at as a union as well.

The promotion has to start from the cradle to the grave. Kids start off and lads and girls become more familiar with stuff in secondary school, once they come out of the primary cycle. Even in primary, you can be making people aware without being too forced. You can say there are options out there. When they go into secondary school, giving people an opportunity to participate is important. STEM is huge, but there are practical life skills. Teaching people how to do very basic things, such as how to cut a piece of wood, very much shapes what people do. By the time they gear towards exams, you are directing them towards it.

On a national scale, apart from the funding that goes with apprenticeship, possibly the national apprenticeship office needs as much help as possible to promote apprenticeship, on the airwaves and everywhere. It is one of those things. If you ran an ad campaign for ten months, after the eleventh month it would be forgotten about. It needs to be there and it needs to be relevant when people are making the choices. It needs to be everywhere that apprenticeship is there. I would say that you cannot do that unless you have the buy-in from the employers. You can promote apprenticeship but unless the jobs are on offer, you will have that problem.

The public sector side of the house is a primary example of where you could advertise the success story of apprenticeship.

Mr. Paul Gavan:

There is just one other point, if I may. We need to reflect the value of the work that these apprentices and these workers do. My son is an apprentice. He has worked on the hospital in Limerick, a key piece of infrastructure. He has worked on a new Educate Together school. We can see our landscape changing and these are the workers that make that change. Perhaps the national apprenticeship office needs to reflect that in terms of the value and the difference that these workers make.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few brief questions. I am a daughter of a plumber and a sister of a plumber. Trades are all I ever knew. No one in my house went to college; they went to a trade. I have had to support people whose families were not born in Ireland and the difficulties in them getting the apprenticeships, and we succeeded. I have been living in Louth. My family have been living in Louth for 200 years. We are there. We know people. We are in the trades. It was easy for people to come and go and ask for trades and get their apprenticeships. Are there any structures within the witnesses' organisations to support a prospective apprentice who is asking how they go about getting their employer? It is clear you register, but to get your employer, to get those forms signed and to get your work can be hugely difficult, particularly for the disadvantaged, for women, people who were not born here or whose families were not born here, and people with disabilities. Particularly in those three categories, can the witnesses point to supports that would really support them and things that we can recommend at committee level so that the apprenticeships model can do better?

Mr. Brian Nolan:

At a basic level, we have a facility through the union - it is even available on our website - for any individual to register for union jobs. That is not to take my job in the union, but to look for a job within a part of industry where they will get an employer who will pay correctly, put them on the pension, register them as apprentices, and so forth. We invite people who would not yet be members of the union, in the case of apprenticeship, to come forward and do that. We take the opportunity to encourage them to join the union as well. We are not doing anything in this to profit other than that the individual gets the apprenticeship. We have that facility. We assist everywhere and anywhere.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is good to know.

Mr. Brian Nolan:

Of course, we always have people that will send in their CVs and so forth. While we do not employ, we will obviously send them out to industry and, it is hoped, to the employers that would give great consideration to it. That is something on a very basic level.

In the past, although not the recent past, we would have published a lot of our publications in multiple languages. That has become more difficult, with the greatest respect, because there are so many different languages, it is becoming very difficult to cater for all. We try to promote the apprenticeship system as the way in.

We have a lot of members and a lot of apprentices currently whose parents, you can tell automatically from the names, might be from a different country originally, and they might be. You get speaking to them and find out the history, and it is great. It is a brilliant way for integration. They are working alongside their peers. It is a great step into industry.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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What about yourselves, as the student union?

Mr. Bryan O'Mahony:

Unfortunately, not. As was said, we are trying to find ways of getting the apprenticeship voice more involved in us. We have no facilities in place but we would love to help any work in that direction.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Great. I thank Mr. O'Mahony. It has been interesting to have the unions here today. We have got some of our recommendations out of them on how we support apprenticeships. They were clear on the minimum wage, the costs of becoming that trainee, the update of the training allowances and the student contribution charge. Those are practical measures to encourage and support more people into the apprenticeship model.

It is a worthy and great career. I was reared on it. It has given me the opportunity to come here and to be who I am. As Mr. Nolan, it provides very valuable skills. I can bleed a radiator. You learn how to do these things, by osmosis, by being there and being curious.

It is a great ability to have. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their answers and for the time they gave us today. We will now suspend to allow the witnesses to depart before moving into private session to deal with our housekeeping matters.