Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We have received apologies from Deputy Dempsey. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute himself or herself when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.

Witnesses within the precincts of the Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may see in the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Session one of today's meeting involves areas affecting children and young people with dyslexia and dyscalculia. From Dyslexia Ireland, I welcome Ms Rosie Bissett, CEO; Mr. Donald Ewing, head of education and policy; and Ms Sive O’Brien, who is a senior cycle student at Our Lady’s Bower Secondary School in Athlone. Some people watch these committee meetings from home so I thank anyone who has tuned in today and welcome those in the Public Gallery, including Councillor Tom O'Callaghan from Clare. I invite Ms Bissett to make her opening statement. The opening statement will be followed by questions from members of the committee.

Ms Rosie Bissett:

We are delighted to have the opportunity to meet the committee and we really appreciate members' time and interest in the issues that are affecting our members and the wider dyslexia and dyscalculia community in Ireland. I am CEO of Dyslexia Ireland and I am joined by my colleague Donald Ewing, head of education and policy. We are also pleased to be joined by Sive O’Brien, who will share her experience as a senior cycle student with dyslexia.

We would like to use our time today to highlight and focus on one of the most urgent issues that we have been campaigning on over recent years and to seek members' support as legislators to make the change possible so that our students can finally have access to the full suite of fair and reasonable accommodations that they are entitled to. The issue is the urgent need for the introduction of extra time as a reasonable accommodation for students sitting their junior cycle and leaving certificate exams. The introduction of extra time was recommended by the State Examinations Commission’s own expert advisory group in 2009 but never actioned. We are calling on the State Examinations Commission to add this accommodation into the existing scheme of reasonable accommodations in certificate exams, known as the RACE scheme, and to do this with urgency so that candidates like Sive no longer face barriers on the most important days of their education.

We were heartened in mid-June by a statement in the Seanad from the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, suggesting significant progress had been made on this issue in line with the programme for Government commitment. In mid-August, we had a meeting with the State Examinations Commission in Athlone and we went there hopeful of some tangible progress on this issue. However, to our disappointment, the SEC could not confirm any changes to the RACE scheme for 2026. Instead, it shared with us that it was about to launch a research and consultation tender process as part of a major review of RACE and outlined a rather lengthy timeline for that piece of work. The SEC did confirm that it was looking at some iterative improvements to the scheme ahead of the 2026 exams and did say that the introduction of extra time was now for the commission a question of when, not if. However, with the details of the 2026 RACE scheme due to be published in days or weeks, with no further consultation with us, we are left wondering if we should expect any changes at all at this point. It is fair to say that we are, yet again, extremely disappointed at the pace of change.

The assurance of "when not if" from the SEC is, frankly, cold comfort for yet another year of students facing into exams without the set of appropriate accommodations. It is cold comfort for the families who are supporting these young people through the stress of exams on what is still an unlevel playing field. Extra time is, after all, the norm for our neighbours across Europe and internationally and in every third level institution in Ireland. This issue is rather simple. We need the speedy introduction of extra time and we need it without any further delay.

The issue of extra time has massive public support. Our public petition has over 33,000 signatories, currently. We have also had overwhelming cross-party political support in the Oireachtas, so we are left wondering what we say to our members when they call, email or message us asking why there are more delays, why there is to be yet another review, why we are putting more stress on our young people because of this, why young people with these additional needs cannot have extra time now, and why the wait.

We are delighted that Sive is here today to share her experience as a student in fifth year. Obviously, the leaving certificate is looming for her. As a young dyslexic, Sive has been a fantastic advocate campaigning on the need for extra time, including a very impressive presentation in these buildings, in the audiovisual room, last May in a session hosted by Deputy Micheál Carrigy, where she shared research conducted as part of a BT Young Scientist Exhibition project. I know some members of the committee were at that event. It is fair to say she made a very compelling case. When she speaks to the committee today, no doubt, she will continue to make that compelling case for the need for extra time.

I will conclude with a question that Sive, we in Dyslexia Ireland and the wider dyslexia community in every parish, school and county in Ireland is asking: why is extra time taking so much time? We are asking members, as legislators, for their support to get this issue over the line finally and we thank them for their care and diligent leadership on this issue.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us. I am a former member of Roscommon County Council. In February 2025, Councillor Laurence Fallon put a motion to the chamber proposing that the council write to the Minister for Education and Youth requesting the introduction of extra time for students with dyslexia and other learning difficulties sitting second level examinations. There was a very positive response - almost unanimous - and quite a number of members opened up about their own experiences and delayed diagnosis. It is only when you start reading into some of these things that things are triggered within yourself and you say ,"I wonder are there similarities there? Are there traits I would be familiar with?" Councillor Fallon mentioned on the day that one in ten people will be diagnosed with dyslexia throughout their lives, and it is a significant condition that affects people in many different ways. The bottom line is that they need assistance and support.

I hear from constituents about the impact on their children's lives in education. The processing time for these students to do the same work as their peers takes a lot out of them, which has a knock-on effect on every other element of their lives. I am for this measure and I will advocate to do something on this to support Dyslexia Ireland, like Roscommon County Council did. I am interested in hearing from Sive. Is she speaking?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

Yes.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I will leave that for a few moments then. We have all bought into additional time.

Following on from additional time, are there examples from other jurisdictions of things that would benefit our students in Ireland? What is the next phase after this?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

To keep the focus on examinations, extra time is the norm in other jurisdictions. It is almost the first thing that young people get in terms of their exams as opposed to here, where our accommodations very much look at the pure reading and spelling challenges. Extra time is also about taking in that processing speed issue, which is a challenge for students with dyslexia and other neurodivergent profiles. We also need to see a move towards a greater use of technology in exams. That is definitely a big issue. In the UK, for example, it is up to the school to decide if a student needs a laptop if a laptop is their normal way of working. In Ireland, there are very strict criteria for how you can use a laptop in exams. The system almost actively disincentivises our dyslexic students from using laptops in their education, despite the fact that we know they give those students huge access to learning and the ability to produce homework or written work, including in exams. They do not know until a couple of weeks or months before their junior cycle exam whether they are going to be allowed to use that device in the exam. We need a more holistic approach and to pull back decision timelines to give students an opportunity to avail of the technology that we have at hand in 2025, giving them equal access to learning materials and the best opportunity to demonstrate their knowledge on the day. Sive will probably be able to tell the committee about the feeling of running out of time in an exam, not getting all your answers down and having to re-read the question paper multiple times, not just to decode individual words but to work out what exactly the question is asking you to do. The readability of our exam papers is an issue we could be looking at too. There are many issues we could address in terms of exams.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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There are things to learn from. I am very interested in hearing from Sive. We love hearing from younger people and getting their lived experience. To go back to what Ms Bissett said in relation to technology, is there consistency among schools or are some schools using better technology and better software to assist students? Is that something Dyslexia Ireland would hope to feed into?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

There is big variation between schools. This is particularly obvious at second level. We all know there are schools in our areas that are iPads schools or laptop schools where you do not just get your textbooks, which thankfully the State is providing, but every student also has a device to support their work, and that is all students, not just those with additional needs. There is a huge difference and that comes down to leadership decisions within schools. There is big variation in what is available to you and the opportunities that you have depending on what school your child happens to get a place in. At primary level, it probably depends on individual principals or deputy principals, who may lead on technology and encourage students to use it. There is huge variation and that causes a lot of inequity. Whether it is a question of access to technology, the quality of teaching and learning experiences or the accommodations available, you should have the same access to the same things in any school in our country.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. It is a feature of this committee that I must sometimes interject to allow the next speaker in. I thank Ms Bissett for her answer.

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe and thank them for being here. I will try to squeeze in two questions. I would love to hear from Sive. I was a primary school teacher for 20 years and have worked a lot with children with dyslexia in my time. I have fought for the devices and to help them. I would love to hear Sive's experience of these devices when she transitioned from primary to secondary and how they help, including in exams. In the review that came out, spelling waivers were recommended but extra time was not. Perhaps Sive would speak to that and to how extra time is a lot more beneficial than spelling waivers.

A lot of families in south Kildare have spoken to me about their children whom they have taken out of their local school to travel to a school in Tallaght that caters specifically for dyslexia. In all my years, I have never been to that school and I have always wanted to go to see what it does. I have seen the improvement in children when they come back or transition to secondary school. Would it be beneficial to have more of these schools in more counties? Is that the witnesses' opinion? I am just curious about their experience of that school.

Ms Rosie Bissett:

We will let Sive go first. I think everyone would love to hear about her experience.

Ms Sive O'Brien:

On my experience in school with regard to the extra time, running out of time in an exam is obviously very stressful, especially when you have put such hard work into studying for the exam and in class. When you are in your exam and you can see the time running out but you are not even nearly done and needing to go back through all of the exam to make sure your answers are good, when you are under that time pressure, it can make it really stressful.

Ms Rosie Bissett:

In terms of the question around reading schools, there is a very small number of reading schools or schools that have a reading class attached to them. The NCSE and the Department are very clear that they will give no mandate to any more of these schools being set up, which is an issue and can be compared with the huge and much-needed growth in the number of autism classes around the country. There is a huge issue around equity of access to those schools because of geography. There are so many parts of the country where it is not an option, the distance is literally so great, you cannot do it. Having said that, we think it is a sad indictment of our education system that you have to go to another school to learn how to read. That should be fundamental to how we teach our young people. Literacy is the core that opens up all of the learning and the other subjects. We should improve what is happening and increase the resources in our schools so that a child in south Kildare, a remote part of Mayo or any other part of the country where there is no equivalent reading class would have access to enhanced supports. To go to a reading school or class, a child generally needs reading or spelling scores in the first or second percentile, which represents a very severe difficulty and will cause huge challenges in accessing the curriculum. Those children need additional resources over and above what is available within the standard SET allocation to schools. If we are going to make it equitable, we probably need to look at how we put those resources into every school because moving school also creates all sorts of issues. Many parents who have children at that first and second percentile choose not to go to one of those schools because of the social and emotional impact of moving schools, which can be quite significant and involve taking their child out of his or her community, friend group and so on.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. If I am hearing correctly, we are being told to hurry up with this, make it happen as soon as possible and have something for 2026, at least on an interim basis. We will hear from the SEC in the next session. I do not know if the witnesses have heard from that commission before but it will say that there was a review in 2000, which said it was, to use its language, well-nigh impossible to operate something like this fairly. They will ask how you decide who needs the extra time and differentiate between people. The commission will also say that, in 2009, there was a recommendation but that we should be careful about it as this recommendation also said the 20 minutes for Irish, English, maths and geography should be reduced and it also made reference to spelling and grammar. It feels like the commission is warning us to be careful what we wish for and warning against trading one group of people for another. I really do not like that. To that point, have the witnesses heard that argument before and what is their response to it? How is this so straightforward in other countries and so complicated in Ireland?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

That is the exact question we have and we have put it to the SEC ourselves. Extra time is granted effectively with proper eligibility criteria and systems in the UK, across Europe, internationally and in our universities here in Ireland.

Why the SEC takes the viewpoint that it is nigh on impossible is a complete outlier if it is possible in the UK and everywhere else in the world. We find that really hard to get our heads around. What is so different about Ireland and our exam system that means it is impossible? If we look at, for example, the criteria in the UK for extra time on the grounds of dyslexia or learning difficulty, students must have test scores in an element of speed, so, reading speed, writing speed, processing speed, which is called "one standard deviation" below the norm, so a standard score of 84 or below. That would be roughly the same point the State Examinations Commission uses for access to a reader or a spelling and grammar waiver. The same metric of being that far below the norm would qualify for this accommodation. It is so hard to answer that question. Honestly, we cannot understand the SEC thinking on it when every other exam body can do this successfully and has been doing this for a very long time.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Bissett referenced Britain. Are there other examples in lots of different European countries?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

There are. We are a member of the EDA, the European Dyslexia Association. It did a survey with our member organisations a year ago. One of the questions was on exam accommodations. The average across Europe was 25% extra time in State exams, such as our junior certificate and leaving certificate. There is variation among countries. In some it is ten minutes per hour, in some it is 33% extra time, which would be 20 minutes. In some cases it can even be up to 50% extra time.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is it fair to say this is a widespread practice internationally?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

It is, absolutely.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the wider review of RACE and Dyslexia Ireland's opportunity for participation, involvement and engagement, what has the experience been like and what does Ms Bissett expect it to be?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

The experience has not been that great to date. Also, the pace of this review is hugely frustrating. Following on from our public petition, which I mentioned, we were before the Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen. That was around May 2024, so over a year ago. At that point the SEC said it would be beginning a review that would take two to three years. The terms of reference were published almost a year later in around May or June 2025. The tender for the initial research piece was only published in mid-August so, the pace of change is of significant concern to us.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Ms Bissett, Mr. Ewing and Ms O'Brien. It is nice to have a young witness in the House. I applaud what Ms O'Brien is doing. It is fantastic we have reached the stage where there is an in-depth understanding of dyslexia and dyscalculia, whereas in the past there was not, and many suffered as a consequence. The end result of that was people felt like less of a person.

How do the current delays, such as the SEC review of the RACE scheme, impact students and families in practical terms?

Mr. Donald Ewing:

Families where there is a young person who is in third year or sixth year are in touch with us a lot asking whether they are over the lines or not. Obviously, there is enough stress around exams, particularly for the leaving certificate. Not knowing what the playing field will look like come June is additionally stressful. Uncertainty and the late confirmation of the accommodations that will be provided is very stressful. Also, schools are busy places. Often schools have just a short number of weeks from the publication of their instructions as to the rules of the scheme to then getting applications out. That is post-primary schools where people are very aware that if something new is coming in, it will take a degree of consultation and a degree of planning. For both schools and families, and particularly for young people, it is just patently unfair to not provide something that is provided in third level all around this island and provided as the norm. One final point: high-stake exams is a phrase we might hear from the State Examinations Commission. The leaving certificate is a high-stakes exam, but so are A-levels in the North, as are degree exams at third level, as are professional exams to become an accountant or a doctor. These are examinations where extra time is routinely provided.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Are there examples from other jurisdictions in the context of reasonable accommodation which Dyslexia Ireland should emulate?

Mr. Donald Ewing:

Yes. We have an existing scheme of accommodations called RACE. This is about simply adding one more item to the menu for young people which is commonly on the menu if they are in a different jurisdiction. The criteria, the scrutiny, the processes, the timelines, are all in existence now. It is literally adding an extra half page to the instructions for schools that the SEC issues every year. We feel like it is a fair addition at this stage. In fairness to the State Examinations Commission, they are now not questioning whether this is fair, because they have said it is a matter of when it will be introduced, not if. That is encouraging, but not that encouraging for families with a third- or sixth-year student asking the question when exactly, and who want to know if it will be in place for them. It will not be much good to them when they have left school, or they are beyond the date of the examination.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious I am out of time so I will leave it at that. I thank the witnesses again for being here, and a special welcome to Ms O'Brien.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Good morning. I thank the witnesses for coming in. I was formerly a secondary school teacher and I was the special educational needs co-ordinator for some of that time, so I was the one who used to apply for the RACE accommodations and experience the frustration of the emphasis from the State Examinations Commission that if they grant something to a student, it would give them an unfair advantage in the exam. There is an emphasis on giving an unfair advantage, whereas it seemed to forget about the student who was struggling to keep up with the curriculum, to prepare for the exams and who have the extra stress of worrying they will not get through the exam. I am sure Ms O'Brien agrees. It is interesting that Ms Bissett said engagement with the SEC has been quite limited. Under the UNCRPD, the notion of "nothing about us, without us" is very strong, and it includes education. There is an onus on the SEC to liaise with groups and advocates representing people with additional needs and people with disabilities in all aspects of the curriculum and the course. The SEC should be liaising with Dyslexia Ireland. I came across this with a student who was blind and was looking for different accommodations to do her exams. While she did very well, she could have done so much better had the SEC listened to her and to what her needs were. The SEC really does need to listen to Dyslexia Ireland about what the needs of students with dyslexia are and make sure it accommodates them. Another thing parents bring to my attention a lot is delayed diagnosis of students. Often, they might suspect there is an issue. They are asking the teachers and the teachers either suspect it themselves but are not getting the resources, they do not know, or they are saying there is nothing wrong. Early diagnosis would make a huge difference for students. Ms O'Brien probably always knew she had dyslexia but when was it actually diagnosed? What sorts of supports did she get in her education outside the limited supports for exams?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

I was diagnosed very late in sixth class. I just thought it was difficulties with reading and writing. Then, when I went into secondary school, I did not receive the supports I needed because I decided to keep on two languages. I went to a Gaelscoil and decided I wanted to keep that up. I did not receive any supports. I did not get extra classes for supports. It took me a really long time to actually understand what dyslexia was and how it affected me. I always assumed it meant I was not good at reading and writing, when actually it is a lot more than that.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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It is a lot more than that. That echoes what I am hearing from parents as well. Ms O'Brien was diagnosed late in sixth class. That means she had almost eight years of education without getting any of the supports.

What a difference getting those supports early in education would have made. That is unfair. Does Ms Bissett see any improvement in making an effort to diagnose children with dyslexia and give them the supports they need as early as possible?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

Honestly, there are very limited efforts to make access to dyslexia identification better for young people. We know NEPS is stretched, under-resourced and understaffed. The former teachers here will know how limited the amount of time you get with a NEPS psychologists is, if you even have one assigned to you, and how few assessments the school gets. Those assessments, fairly enough, go to the kids with the most significant need. What has been positive in the system recently is our allocation of resources and access to things like exam accommodations are not based on diagnosis but on evidence of need. The risk is there is huge unmet need in terms of identification. Sive will tell you - even if it is identified in sixth class or as an adult, it is important for individuals socially and psychologically to understand and have a word to describe their profile.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Joe Conway.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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I am not up to speed; I have only just arrived. Can I pass over to the next person?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will get you in in a little while. I am next on the rota of speakers. I welcome all the witnesses today and Sive in particular. As other members have said, this is the Committee on Education and Youth so it is very important to get young people in to hear what they have to say. When you are in fifth year, teachers start encouraging you to go to the local book shop and pick up those red exam books to look at the previous years of leaving certificate papers. Have your teachers in Our Lady's Bower ever given you additional time to complete one of those papers? How have you fared when you have additional time versus when you have the prescribed time?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

I have never been given additional time to do any tests or papers so I cannot really speak on that.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The day you were with your classmates in the audiovisual room, I think you had a graph that showed in other countries when they people have extra time, they do better in exams. Will Ms O'Brien give us a flavour of what that is like? What did you find out when you did that study?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

From our study we found out that all the students in other countries who did receive extra time had better results, better well-being and were properly accommodated so they could achieve their fullest potential. It was an even playing field for people when they were taking their exams.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I can well imagine. The first really big exams you had was your junior certificate in summer 2023. It is stressful for everyone but will you share a little about your stress levels when looking at the clock in the examination hall, see time is running out and you are maybe two or three pages away from the end of the test booklet?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

It was a very stressful time especially when I went in knowing I would run out of time. My first exam was English and I badly ran out of time in that exam. That had a knock-on effect for all of my other exams. I was not going into my exams very mentally strong because of that. It is very disheartening. When you go into an exam after you have put in all of the effort and done all the study and then you cannot show what you have learned. It affected me in my other questions. I would be looking at the clock trying to write down as quick I could and would mess things up in my head. I would not be able to focus properly because I would see the clock and hear 20 minutes left and I had a good bit of the paper to go.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Did you manage to finish any of your tests in their entirety?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

I was not able to finish any.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We all heard you speak in the audiovisual room. You are a very smart young woman and so are your classmates but you were unable to get to the end point of each test paper in your junior certificate in summer 2023.

Ms Sive O'Brien:

Yes. I was not able.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That says it all. The time for pushing around the can is well and truly over. People like you who are very smart and should be achieving better in your test scores need extra time so they can achieve all of that.

I have a question for Dyslexia Ireland. This is a bit of a left of centre question. I have had people contact me about the driver theory test. They say the can drive fine, they have had all their lessons and they are very safe drivers but they cannot have any support when they to do the theory test. Will the witnesses comment on that? That seems to be another disadvantage. When someone like Sive is a few years older, hopefully she will get to drive a lovely car in a few years. I hope she will drive here eventually when she is a TD for her constituency. That is a huge disadvantage. Will Ms Bissett or Mr. Ewing comment on that?

Mr. Donald Ewing:

There are some accommodations available when you sit your driver theory test, which include the questions being read out loud. We advise individuals to contact the test centre and state they need those accommodations. They also provide a specialist reader service if for some reason the audio recording of the questions does not suit their needs. We engaged with it quite a lot in the past five or six years to design the service because it understood it had responsibilities under equality legislation to make these reasonable adjustments. In fairness, the first thing it did was contact us to design it around the needs of the individual rather than the individual forcing their way around the system.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think I am betraying any confidence because he is quite open about it. I was not joking when I said Sive might have a political career because the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, is an outstanding TD for his constituency. He was on "The Late Late Show" in the past. He has given interviews in the Irish Independent, etc. He left school at the age of 13. He did not realise he had dyslexia and felt the school system failed him and he could not achieve what he wanted to. He has had a very good adult life. He has succeeded in his field. It would be great if the advocacy group Sive set up could meet him. He is quite inspirational in how he sees all of this. We will hear from more members. There are good people here from all parties. Some get this so well because they have been in classrooms and seen children struggle. People are very invested in this. We will put in a huge effort to ensure when Sive sits her leaving cert in the year after next, I would be ashamed if things are not straightened out by then. I call Deputy Jen Cummins.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses are all very welcome, especially Sive. It is not easy coming in to a committee even for us on this side of the table. It is great she is here. I thank her for sharing her experiences. My child is in senior cycle. I have her permission; I texted her earlier to ask if I could speak about this. She has dyslexia. It is not just the struggle with reading and writing and all those things, it is the struggle with a system that has been quite difficult for us as a family. As her mother, I have had to advocate all the way along. I met Sive last week and I said this to her. When she gets exam results at the end of each year, there seems to be a dropdown box where it says you should focus on your spelling and grammar. She has a waiver for spelling and grammar. It does not matter if you put that dropdown box in, she is never going to change that, why not focus on something else. Those small things chip away at confidence. As the previous speaker said, it chips away to the point where you think you are not good enough but you are. The system is not good enough. The lack of extra time is unfair and unreasonable. It is supposed to be reasonable accommodation. It is unreasonable accommodation to not have the time. When you read some of the things said in the past in that document from the State Examinations Commission, it is infuriating to think there are adults not willing to give young people an equitable chance and thinking that by giving them extra time, that disadvantage somebody else. They are not because they are at a disadvantage. I am very cross about this and I was cross when I met Sive last week as well because it is personal not only to me but to many young people I supported in the school completion programme over that time who were at risk of early school leaving because they did not fit into the system and were not able to learn the way that is apparently the only way we can learn in this country. It is difficult to hear that it happens in other countries. Why can we not just do what other countries do and learn from that good practice. I am just ranting now but I do have a question. What would Sive say to other young people who may watch this to encourage them to keep going - or to their parents?

Ms O'Brien may have prepared stuff she wanted to say here today but did not have time because we did not ask those particular questions. What would she say to other young people? If there is anything else she wants to say, she has a bit of time.

Ms Sive O'Brien:

I would make the point that there are so many other options and routes. Reading and writing and exams are not the be all and end all. There is so much you can do and so much you can explore. I know I am quite creative and look at things from different angles. I struggle a lot with reading and writing and I would look at things from different angles a lot of the time. There is so much else you can explore. Exams do not define you at all. I would say to people to work as hard as they can and they will be so proud of themselves when they put in the work. If that means getting 300 points after working so hard, they should be so proud and if that means getting 625 points they should still be so proud. Hard work, keep going and follow what you love, I guess.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Well said. That is really amazing, thank you.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Cummins. Senator Curley has four minutes.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Well said, Sive. The last time I crossed paths with the Bower they broke our hearts in the all-Ireland volleyball semi-final a few years ago. We will forget about that for now.

Chuaigh Sive O'Brien go dtí an Ghaelscoil. Sa bhunscoil, bhí sí sa Ghaelscoil. I know we are primarily talking about exams today and the time that is given but outside of exams, how has Ms O’Brien’s experience been in the language classrooms? Take Irish, and I am an Irish teacher, does she think the curriculum is set up to allow students to showcase what they know, which is the stated aim, or is it more to catch out dyslexic students and destroy their confidence? I know that is a loaded question but what has Ms O’Brien’s experience been?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

I was in a Gaelscoil in primary school and I absolutely loved Irish. I still do love Irish, I love speaking Irish, but I find that in a classroom in secondary school a lot of it is about taking down notes and memorising and grammar and I struggle so much with grammar and spelling. Even when I do learn it off, in an exam I can spell it wrong and it will look like the completely wrong grammar. I have fallen a bit out of love with my languages in school, definitely, but I still love speaking them outside school. In the classroom it has been a bit hard recently, especially with all the pressure of the leaving certificate and trying to get all the information in. It takes me that bit longer to understand and comprehend everything and I need to do a lot of catching up outside of school. In classrooms, I definitely struggle with languages but outside of classrooms I love languages.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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On a different committee with the Chairman, Deputy Crowe, the coiste Gaeilge, we are both pushing the idea that reducing the marks in the new draft leaving certificate for the oral exam is scandalous but we will get back to that on another day.

Ms Bissett has been campaigning on the extra time for two years. I ask her to please keep the foot on the throttle until it is done, please. I raised it in the Seanad with Senator Ollie Crowe. The two of us are trying to campaign for it. It is a no-brainer.

Councillor Donna Phelan contacted me about assistive technology recently. Is there no autonomy at all for schools in relation to the administration of it? Is it purely an application process? Is it really restricted?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

It is complicated. The assistive technology grant scheme is currently under review. A new one is coming out quite soon, we are told, but with “quite soon” we never hold our breath too much because we know things seem to take a long time in the Department.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask another question on that? Would it speed things up in some instances if parents outlined that they have the money to buy the technology? Would it completely clear the backlog if those parents volunteered that they just want their child to have the iPad and said “Here is the money just give me the cert”?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

One hundred percent and many of those parents who are fortunate enough to be in the situation to do that do that. What happens in some schools is they conflate the assistive technology grant which is funding to buy a device for a child with a child being allowed to use a device. Absolutely, if parents have the resources they can and do send that device into school. There is also an issue around the need for training for teachers to be clear around that point whereby if a student is dyslexic and needs to use this for access to the curriculum, he or she should be allowed to use it and that is a separate thing from the grant.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I have one other question. Ms Bissett touched on this in relation to teachers. How does she find the level of training and CPD? Councillor Paul Taylor asked me a question on this. He has a background and history with the system on this. Are teachers equipped to best support students with dyslexia on an ongoing basis with up-to-date training?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

I will let Mr. Ewing answer this as he does a lot of our teacher training.

Mr. Donald Ewing:

We had 150 teachers join an online webinar on the last three Wednesday evenings. It is fantastic people are giving up their free time and often at their own expense. It is probably not sufficient to cover all 3,000 primary schools or -----

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I have one last question. I thank Mr. Ewing for the answer.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are nearly out of time here.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Are the waiting lists starting to improve since Covid? That is a question from Councillor Caroline O'Reilly in Meath. She is concerned about it.

Mr. Donald Ewing:

We have a huge problem with underdiagnosis of dyslexia. The waiting lists or absence of any waiting list in NEPS is strange because the demand is very high and the supply is very low.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Ewing. Deputy Currie has four minutes.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Ewing, Ms Bissett and especially Ms O’Brien are very welcome. People know my position on this. How time pressing is the need for a decision to be made for the students of 2026? What impact is that having on them?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

It is incredibly time pressing because the rules for 2026 are due to come out in the next couple of weeks. If extra time is not there, there will be some serious stress and emotional distress placed on young people who are a year ahead of Ms. O’Brien or back at junior certificate stage who are going to be incredibly distressed if that is not there. They will have the same experience Ms O’Brien talked about of exam after exam running out of time and going into the next exam feeling on the back foot straight away. It is urgent. It is past urgent; we should have been doing this years ago.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I agree. What does Ms Bissett say to people who are hung up on issues such as there being a need for a diagnosis, when we know there is not, or that by giving equity to some students we are taking equity away from other students? What do the witnesses say, concisely, to put those arguments to bed?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

The current RACE scheme is a needs-based system. It does not require a diagnosis for any other accommodation. There is no need for a diagnosis for extra time either. It can be done in the same way – evidence of need with tests of reading speed, writing speed and processing speed. The issue of unfair advantage, which Senator Tully also mentioned, which comes from the SEC a lot, this fear of giving advantage to others, is simply not true. Recent research published from University College London and a report by the British Dyslexia Association earlier this year have showed that in the UK, where they have extra time as common plus a suite of other accommodations, the results of young people with dyslexia and other special educational needs are still below those of their peers, even with that extra time. Extra time helps to get us closer to a level playing field but as Deputy Cummins said, it is still really hard for them. This whole thing of the timed exam, the recall, the speed issue will still be harder for them than their non-dyslexic peers but at least we can make it better for them. When Ms O’Brien goes into her leaving certificate exams, if we get this right, she and countless other students will have a better opportunity to get their knowledge and ability down.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Exactly. It should be based on evidence. I wrote to the SEC about it and its response was that it might have to consider withdrawing the additional time that applies to all candidates taking Irish, English, History and Geography and also the removal of the spelling and grammar waiver. Does Ms Bissett feel like she is in a game of chess at the moment?

Ms Rosie Bissett:

Absolutely, as mentioned earlier, whether it is a "Sophie’s Choice" or there is almost a threat to take away existing accommodations. The extra time that exists for the particular subjects the Deputy mentioned was brought in for all students because there was campaigning by a lot of subject teachers and others to recognise that all students were struggling with completing those papers in the amount of time. As it was brought in for a completely separate rationale, I do not understand why it is even brought up in this argument. The threat around the spelling and grammar waiver is something that is brought up time and again.

It is incredibly unfair to threaten giving with one hand and taking with the other. We might give you this but we will take that away from you. That is not levelling the playing field. That is not fair.

Ms Sive O'Brien:

With regard to the spelling and grammar waiver, if that is not in place for my exams, I will be in such bother. Accommodations are not to boost people above everyone else, but to bring them to the same level and even the playing field. Extra time is something I need to be level with everyone else. If someone’s glasses are taken away before an exam, they cannot see. This is the same thing. Dyslexia is not made-up. People struggle with spelling and processing speed. Accommodations are in place to allow them to be level with their peers and for the hard work they put in to show.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms O'Brien. She is so right. There is a basic misunderstanding of equity that by lifting somebody up, we are tearing somebody else down.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. It does not happen often but we have a bit of leeway. We will go back to the witnesses for any concluding remarks they wish to make. We have a second part of this meeting. If there are any points they did not get to make during the meeting, they can make them now. We will begin with Mr. Ewing.

Mr. Donald Ewing:

We have far too high a tolerance for stress in our young people. Exams are stressful for everybody but exponentially more so for children with dyslexia. We are inured to that as a society and we should stop doing it. As a psychologist, it is high time we particularly addressed this institutional acceptance every June that we put our youngest and most vulnerable people through things they often struggle to recover from. It is about time we did everything we can to level the playing field but also to make sure that all students are not defined by a week in June for the rest of their education or lives.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Hear, hear.

Ms Rosie Bissett:

What I would like to say to the committee and I hope it will address with the officials of the Department and State Examinations Commission when they are before the committee shortly, is to get a clear answer as to why not now when this can be done everywhere else. Students can struggle through our second level school system and get into Trinity College Dublin or the University of Galway or any university in Ireland and get it straight away. A student can do A-levels across the Border and get it straight away. Why not now?

Ms Sive O'Brien:

As I have said, we need these accommodations for affected students to keep up with their peers. Many people in my school have come to me since visiting the Dáil or attending the young scientist competition asking whether extra time is coming in. There are many people out there stressed out because they are not receiving these vital accommodations. At the young scientist exhibition, many parents came to me asking for advice for students with dyslexia. Many people would benefit from this. It would help so many people around this country.

Another issue I wish to bring up is the classroom accommodations. I have never felt fully supported in my classrooms. There is a lot of taking notes down from the board, which is something I really struggle with, as well as correcting homework. Outside of the classroom, I have to do extra work to try to relearn this information in the ways I learn. This is something many people I know who have dyslexia struggle with. When I walk into a classroom there is no understanding of the fact that when I take down notes, I can take them down completely wrong. I then go off and study the wrong information only to write it down in a test and be told it is incorrect and asked where I got it from. I tell the teacher those are the notes they gave, but I took them down wrong. We need to look at accommodations in classrooms and helping students with dyslexia in the classroom. Extra time in exams is one of the biggest issues. It would benefit many different people and we really do need it.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of all committee members, I sincerely thank the Donald, Rosie and, in particular, Sive for being here this morning. It takes great fortitude and courage to come in and speak. It is one thing to speak for yourself but she is showing leadership today by speaking for the many students, some of whom are probably watching and some are not. There are teachers watching as well.

Ms O'Brien spoke this morning for huge numbers of students who struggle, be they at primary or secondary level, and even adults. I thank her for her strength and leadership. She is a credit to herself and her family and I hope her school recognises she has put it on the map, even more so than its volleyball team. She has put the school on a national footing and I thank her for that. I thank the members as always.

A pledge was circulated to us months ago and I gauge we are all very supportive. If members have not signed the pledge and Ms Bissett is nodding, try to sign it. It is going to take a big effort to get what needs to happen over the line. There is a second part to today’s meeting, which the witnesses are welcome to observe from the Public Gallery. We will briefly suspend to allow the witnesses for second session of today’s meeting to take their seats. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I ask anyone attending remotely to mute their device when not contributing so that the meeting does not pick up any background noise or feedback. I also remind those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off entirely. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside of the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official of the Houses by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

On the agenda for session 2 of today's meeting of the committee is current and future plans for the RACE scheme, with specific reference to dyslexia and dyscalculia. From the Department of Education and Youth, the following official is before the committee today: Ms Celeste O'Callaghan, principal officer. From the State Examinations Commission, SEC, the following officials are before the committee here today: Ms Andrea Feeney, chief executive officer; Ms Deirdre Phelan, acting head of examinations and assessment; and Ms Róisin Collier, principal officer. They are all very welcome and I thank them for taking time to join us here this morning.

I call Ms O'Callaghan to make her opening statement, for which she will have five minutes, following which I will call Ms Feeney to make her opening statement, for which she will also have five minutes. The opening statements will then be followed by questions from the members. They will have four minutes each. I ask that members allow time within their slot for the officials to respond appropriately to questions.

Ms Celeste O'Callaghan:

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend. I am principal officer in the curriculum and assessment policy unit of the Department of Education and Youth, and my remit includes responsibility for matters relating to the State examinations. The Department's role here is a broad one of policy oversight, as distinct from the State Examinations Commission's operational responsibility for the development and delivery of the State examinations.

The accommodations provided under the scheme of reasonable accommodations at certificate examinations, more generally known as the RACE scheme, are an important part of the SEC's operational remit.

From a policy perspective, the Department is very conscious of the importance of the RACE scheme in facilitating fair and equal access to the State examinations for all candidates who, without such a scheme, would have difficulty in accessing the examinations or communicating what they know because of a visual or hearing difficulty, a learning difficulty or a physical difficulty.

The programme for Government commits to developing an appropriate mechanism to allow additional time for students with specific needs and in certain circumstances, and to ensure that those who use assistive technology can do so in State examinations. In that regard, the SEC is undertaking a comprehensive review of the RACE scheme, in which these issues are encompassed. An enhancement to the scheme was already seen in the 2025 examinations. The Department welcomes the SEC's focus on ensuring that there is extensive consultation and engagement with all of the relevant stakeholders in that review.

I understand that my colleagues in the SEC will set out in their opening statement further detail on the RACE scheme, the different accommodations in place for students, including those with dyslexia, and the current review.

I am happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. I call Ms Feeney to make her opening statement.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Good morning, Cathaoirleach and members of the committee. I am delighted to have this opportunity to address the committee today on this important issue. It was great to hear from Dyslexia Ireland and Ms Sive O'Brien in the previous session.

We were delighted to meet with Dyslexia Ireland twice over the summer at a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, in May, and again in August at a bilateral meeting as a key stakeholder.

The SEC is fully committed to providing an examinations and assessment system with the highest possible standards of inclusiveness, equity and fairness and that enables all candidates to display their achievements. We take very seriously our obligation to provide access to the certificate examinations for candidates with special educational needs and work closely with school authorities, the Department of Education and Youth and other agencies. We also engage with persons with disabilities through their representative organisations and, more recently, in direct engagement with users of the service.

Access to the State examinations is facilitated in the first instance by developing examination papers and other test instruments that are designed to be as accessible as possible to the broadest range of candidates.

Through the scheme of reasonable accommodations or the RACE scheme, candidates with special educational needs are provided with support and access arrangements due to their physical, visual, hearing or learning difficulties. These access arrangements are intended to remove as far as possible the impact of a disability on the candidate's performance and enable the candidate to demonstrate their level of attainment and to ensure that, whilst giving candidates every opportunity to demonstrate their level of attainment, the special arrangements will not give the candidate an unfair advantage over other candidates in the same examination.

These two fundamental principles, which are recognised within examining bodies throughout the world, encapsulate the fundamental challenge of, on the one hand, attempting to provide access for candidates with particular needs to demonstrate their level of attainment while, on the other, attempting to ensure that inter-candidate equity and fairness for all candidates is not compromised in the measures taken to provide access. That is an issue that was raised in the previous session and that we would be happy to come back to.

Schools have devolved authority to recommend the supports that are required based on the candidates' needs.

There is no need for a diagnosis of a specific condition. We want to reflect in the examinations the students' normal way of working.

Eligibility criteria apply and accommodations are provided in accordance with the principles and requirements of the scheme. Accommodations granted at junior cycle are generally carried through to the leaving certificate examinations, which gives certainty from an early stage in students' post-primary education about the supports they will have in the examination. An extensive range of supports is available, including the provision of non-standard versions of examination papers, modified tests, sign language interpreters, assistance in practical tests, access to shared or individual special centres, waivers and exemptions, as well as additional time or rest breaks in certain circumstances. The SEC also recognises the role of assistive technology in enabling independent examinations access. For eligible candidates with learning difficulties, including dyslexia, the main accommodations are reading accommodations, writing accommodations such as access to a laptop, tablet or scribe, a waiver for the assessment of spelling, grammar and punctuation in language subjects, and additional time if the candidate is uses a scribe or assistive technology in the classroom but is unable to make adequate use of them in the examinations.

The number of candidates accessing supports has increased steadily year on year since the SEC was established in 2003, when 5% or 6,200 candidates were provided with reasonable accommodations. Ten years later in 2012, this had increased to 13% of the cohort and this year, when 140,000 candidates will take examination, 26% or 36,240 candidates had access to arrangements under the RACE scheme and a total of 42,000 individual accommodations were provided.

It is absolutely acknowledged by the SEC that there is increasing complexity in the special educational needs landscape and, by extension, the impact on candidates with special educational needs taking the certificate examinations. Some areas of recent focus by commentators and stakeholders in relation to the RACE scheme include the provision of supports for candidates who have processing or cognitive issues; the range of supports appropriate to those who are vision impaired or who are deaf or hard of hearing; and the adequacy of additional time within the scheme, which is particularly relevant to the discussion today.

The SEC continues to work on a comprehensive system-wide review of the RACE scheme which will seek to address all the relevant issues and take account of best practice internationally. The review is contextualised in the senior cycle redevelopment programme and the wider special educational needs policy landscape, which itself has been subject to a major review. The SEC's board is also cognisant of the programme for Government commitment to develop an appropriate mechanism to allow additional time for students with specific needs and in certain circumstances, and also to ensure that those who use assistive technology can do so in State examinations. A steering group has been established and six meetings have been held to date, the most recent of which was on Monday, 29 September. This group, which I chair, includes external members drawn from Government, academic and international organisations, as well as senior SEC officials. Their names are included in the briefing material provided. The structure is designed to ensure rolling changes can be implemented as the review progresses, rather than awaiting a big-bang approach at the end of the full review period, which is two to three years, as was mentioned. This will ensure any changes can be implemented as early as possible in the interests of students. Already, and on a pilot basis for 2025, additional time for vision-impaired candidates was increased from ten minutes per hour to 15 minutes per hour. This was the first major change relating to additional time in more than 20 years.

The SEC is engaging an external researcher to support the review and lead an extensive consultation and engagement with stakeholders. This will include young people with special educational needs, their families and representative organisations. The SEC is currently finalising the 2026 instructions for schools to ensure it will be available to schools as soon as possible, and stakeholders will be made aware as soon as these are published.

My colleagues and I are happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Feeney and Ms O'Callaghan. We will move on to members' questions in a moment. Members will have four minutes each. The time is constrained so I remind members that in those four minutes they should try to give sufficient time for the answers. They might hear the bell occasionally. I apologise in advance, but we need to move to the next member and so on.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank the speakers, Ms O'Callaghan and Ms Feeney.

Ms Feeney mentioned in the conclusions and further review section of her submission the increased complexity. She also mentioned that about 6,500 people are benefiting from the RACE scheme or accommodations at the moment. This discussion is targeted directly at dyslexia and dyscalculia. I mentioned earlier that one in ten people come under that umbrella. On average, 70,000 people sit the junior certificate examinations each year and 55,000 or 60,000 sit the leaving certificate examinations each year. If we target this directly at the topic being discussed today, a lot of people who come under that bracket are not being accommodated. Ms Feeney mentioned that the SEC needs additional time to get through the complexities of this. That is the same experience that the people suffering from this have. They need additional time accommodations.

I do not know whether Ms Feeney heard Sive speak earlier about her experience. She is the exception rather than the rule, because predominantly people who suffer with these conditions have lower self-esteem and go into themselves and are the people in the classroom who might not be noticed. I commend Sive again on the way she spoke today and on how she is embracing her superpower and throwing it out for people to see her as an example.

This goes back to the Department of Education and Youth as well. If we look up delays in both the SEC and the Department, the common response is that more time was needed to accommodate this. Why not now? Why can we not have a pilot to look after the significant number of students we are talking about?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

To clarify, the number being accommodated under the scheme is 36,000 of 140,000. Those with dyslexia are included in the cohort accommodated on grounds of learning difficulty, which represents about 70% or 25,000 of the 36,000. There was a lot of focus in the earlier discussion on what is not incorporated in the scheme, but a huge number of students - more than one in four - are being provided with access and support arrangements in taking the certificate examinations with the variety of accommodations I mentioned.

On additional time, I spoke to the Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen in May 2024 and was asked at that stage how long the review would take. I said two to three years, which was an honest answer at that time. We have made great progress on the scheme and we had a pilot on additional time for 2025 for students who are vision impaired. It was the first significant change made to additional time in over 20 years. We have put our bona fides out about what we are capable of doing within the review. We are not waiting for a big bang at the end. Our 2026 RACE instructions will issue to schools next week. They will not include a specific change on additional time, but we are looking at what we can do on a pilot basis for 2026.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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How many candidates were included in the pilot scheme for visually impaired students?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

The number of students being accommodated because of vision impairments is approximately 350. It is small and they are a discrete cohort with particular needs because they are either blind or vision impaired. The difficulty in looking at it in a broader way is simply the numbers. How do we assess the eligibility of 36,000 students? We cannot just say we will provide additional time-----

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt but I want to raise another matter in the time that is left. Sive mentioned that she was diagnosed, went to second level and kept on her languages because that was her thing. As a result, she was penalised or not offered the same supports as other people with a diagnosis. That cannot continue. Would either of the witnesses like to say anything about that?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

The only thing I would say about diagnoses is that a change was made to the scheme in 2016 not to require a diagnosis for the purpose of the RACE scheme. That was done for equity reasons. There was discussion earlier about people being able to pay for supports. In 2016, the scheme had a situation where people were paying for private psychological reports. We changed the scheme so that it moved from being diagnosis-led to needs-led, based on individual students' needs. In looking at dyslexia as a discrete cohort, we would be going back to a situation of diagnosis and that is not desirable in special educational needs education.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for cutting Ms Feeney off. We will get deeper into this as we go along.

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for being here.

I do not get it. I will try to fit in two questions. Will they answer simply? We have heard about what they are capable of doing but as Ms Bissett said in the previous session, it was 16 years ago. Why can we not do it now? It is done everywhere else. People can struggle through secondary school, get into third level and then the accommodations are available.

Why can we not do it now? That is my first question.

Ba mhaith liom díriú isteach ar Sive. D’fhreastail sí ar Ghaelscoil. I always taught in a Gaelscoil myself. It was a common issue for parents that when children got a diagnosis, they would come with a psychological report that recommended they leave the Gaelscoil. The parents are heartbroken and do not want to, so we work with them.

A lot of exemptions, díolúintí, are being handed out. I think it has risen from about 5% to 26% in the last 15 to 20 years. Are we handing out these exemptions too easily? If that is the case, should we instead be providing more support for children like Sive, who said she loved Gaeilge but was falling out of love with it? Briseann sé sin mo chroí. I ask Ms Feeney to answer those two questions.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I will let my colleague from the Department take the second question. On the first question as to why not now, it is really the scale that we are looking at. In defining eligibility, how do we determine, within the 36,000 students, who is eligible for additional time? We are providing additional time within the scheme at the moment. It is not that there is no additional time. Additional time is being provided to students who are provided with a scribe or are vision-impaired and in other limited circumstances.

We have constraints in terms of the examination timetable. Examinations are already quite long. We have exams that last three hours and ten minutes, and that can increase to four and a half hours if additional time is provided at a rate of 25%. There could be students who are sitting a four-hour exam twice a day, based on the current timetable. This is the experience. We have feedback from students where they are provided with additional time in those circumstances. They are struggling with things like fatigue in those examinations.

Within the review, we have commissioned research and consultation. We want to look at what is best practice within the higher education context here, but also what is happening abroad in terms of looking at what might be possible. In the meantime, we want to introduce something on a pilot basis. There was discussion earlier about the withdrawal of the spelling and grammar waiver and the additional time that is there in four subjects for all students at the moment.

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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If these are available at third level, is it because it does not have an issue with numbers or is it that children with dyslexia are not going on to third level?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

It is probably the context. We are looking to ensure we provide a scheme with eligibility criteria that can be implemented in schools. If we think about the numbers at the moment, there are 815 schools and other centres that are providing the examinations. There is an average of 45 students in each of those schools being provided with reasonable accommodations. There is an average of 13 special centres in each of those schools where students with accommodations are being accommodated. We need to work through all of those issues with stakeholders, and schools are very important stakeholders in this space. However, we also need time to do research on the cumulative impact of the accommodations that are currently there, that is, the time that is currently on the timetable, the spelling and grammar waiver and the additional time.

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Ba bhreá liom cloisteáil faoi dhíolúintí na Gaeilge má tá aon duine in ann.

Ms Celeste O'Callaghan:

In relation to the exemptions in Irish, the number has risen, as the Deputy said. There are a few context factors that probably help to explain some of that. There are over 18,000 students who have enrolled from Ukraine in the past three years - about 11,000 at primary level and 6,000 at post-primary level. That is part of the context. Obviously, another piece is that the number of children with more complex special educational needs is increasing. Those factors are part of the context behind the increasing exemptions. Nevertheless-----

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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The 11,000 from Ukraine are coming over with probably one or two languages already, so they will be well able to learn Gaeilge. Many of them have been doing that and want to.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. I understand Senator Tully is swapping with Deputy Roche.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and for their presentation. Some of my questions follow on from Deputy Ní Raghallaigh. With regard to language, it seems there is a move away from concentration on the oral exams. Language is spoken. That is what we should be concentrating on, especially for children with dyslexia, who have difficulty with reading and grammar. As Sive said in the earlier session, she attended a Gaelscoil, loved Irish and was able to speak Irish. However, she struggled when she went to secondary school because she did not get the supports in the subject to learn grammar. We need to see more concentration on spoken Irish and less on giving everybody an exemption. We need a different focus or a different way of teaching the language.

There was a 2009 recommendation for more time. It is now 2025 but it still has not happened. It is something that is done internationally. Ms Feeney said that a review is under way and that it was announced in 2024. However, I understand it only started this summer.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

In February.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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There was a time gap from when it was announced to when it actually started. Is it really necessary to have a review? I know the commission has to look at the times for exams and so on. I have seen timetables change before for different reasons. For example, subjects were swapped to different days so children were not doing English and another heavy subject on the same day. There may be a need for change. If it is something that has been done across Europe and in Britain, we do not need to reinvent the wheel. We just need to see what they are doing and change it.

Stakeholder engagement is very important. Since the UNCRPD was passed and ratified in this country, there has been an onus on all organisations, Departments and public bodies to engage with stakeholders. They must listen to the people, advocates and advocacy groups and ensure they are taking on what is required.

Ms Feeney said changes were made to accommodations for people who were blind or visually impaired. I was in contact with Niamh Kilcawley, who was very vocal on this issue. It was her advocacy that probably led to the changes that were badly needed. Well done to her.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I might come back to the 2009 recommendation. That came from an advisory group chaired by Áine Hyland, which made a recommendation to expand the additional time within the scheme. It also made two other recommendations, one of which was to remove the spelling and grammar waiver in language subjects, and the other was to remove the pilot of additional time for Irish, English, history and geography. There is additional time, beyond what those examinations should require, on the timetable that applies to all candidates. Therefore, they made a recommendation, on the one hand, to introduce an expanded scheme of additional time, but they also made two other recommendations relating to time. We cannot just pick one recommendation from that report. It has to be looked at in the round. That is why, when we talk about making policy decisions based on evidence, we need time to do the research in order to come up with the evidence to support any change we might make.

It is done at third level. The qualifying criteria at third level are different and stricter. They require a specific diagnosis and a threshold score of 81. In the RACE scheme, we are accommodating students who have threshold scores of 85 or below in reading, spelling and writing, so our scheme is actually a more open scheme. We need some time to finish that piece of work through the review.

As I mentioned, we have already made a change to the additional time on a pilot basis for vision-impaired candidates. We are committed to introducing a pilot for additional time in 2026. I just do not want to build up expectations as to what that pilot will look like, given the number of students who are accommodated within the scheme. The figure of 36,000, or over one in four at this stage, is quite significant. We need time to work with all of the stakeholders through that process.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. As a first-time Deputy, I am more enlightened than I was heretofore in terms of what the State Examinations Commission does. I have two questions for Ms Feeney. How does the State Examinations Commission ensure consistent application of the RACE scheme across all schools, in particular those in disadvantaged or rural areas?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

We have a document, the reasonable accommodations instructions for schools, that sets out very clearly all of the information about the scheme. It is very much school-led and is based on schools making applications for reasonable accommodations based on their knowledge of the students who are before them every day. There are criteria that apply, and the schools can also carry out testing in relation to those criteria.

We undertake training in schools, along with NEPS. We have a series of webinars running at the moment, the first of which was this week. Some 350 schools attended that webinar and two more sessions are planned, one for today and another for next week. That is in a bid to ensure consistency in the scheme.

We have a quality assurance process that takes place during the application process each year. NEPS, on our behalf, visits schools where there might be difficulties with application forms. Equally, NEPS visits schools where there is lower number of applications for reasonable accommodations than we would expect to see based on the profile of the school.

A lot of work is done to engage with schools through the webinars I mentioned and school management bodies, namely, the Joint Managerial Body, JMB, the Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools, ACCS and Education Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, at stakeholder level to ensure issues relating to the scheme are properly managed and reported back to the State Examinations Commission. We find that schools are motivated to do the right thing by students in their schools and put in place accommodations and supports that are needed for their students in taking their examinations in the context of the scheme.

What the Deputy mentioned is not an issue we have noticed. We are coming across issues of consistency. One facet of the scheme is in place in order to iron out issues of disagreement. It may be the case that a parent is advocating for a child who needs accommodations and a school might disagree and say that the child, in line with the criteria, is not eligible. We provide a complex case referral process so that those types of cases can be referred to directly to the SEC for it to make a determination.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Very good. I am conscious of my time. What is the timeline for the current RACE review? Could any interim measures be introduced to assist students in the meantime?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Yes. The review kicked off in earnest in February, with the inaugural meeting of the steering group. The steering group has had six meetings since that time. As I mentioned, we made changes to the pilot scheme in the 2025 examinations in respect of additional time for students with visual impairments. We are committed to ensuring that changes can be implemented in an agile way without waiting for the very end of the review process.

Realistically, it will be a two- to three-year review process because there are things we are doing in the review that will take time, such as developments in different forms and versions of examination papers and other test instruments. Things we can deal with in a more iterative way we are committed to doing. As I said, we will put in place a pilot of additional time in some shape or form for the 2026 examinations. What that will look like and how many students will be impacted by that we do not know at this point in time because we need to do some further work and carry out engagement with stakeholders.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are very welcome and I thank them for their opening statements. More work will happen on the pilot. The witnesses also said there should be an announcement about RACE next week. Do we expect to hear information around the pilot next week?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

No, not next week. Referring to next week was a misstep on my part. The RACE instructions for schools will be out in the next couple of weeks. They will give information about the process of review. They will not contain details about a pilot at this stage. Schools will make their applications for reasonable accommodation supports based on the eligibility criteria contained in the instructions for schools. The pilot will have to follow. We need more time to work through the criteria and eligibility for additional time.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is for students of 2026.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Yes.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Did the witnesses hear us discuss how pressing it is that students have clarity on their examinations so that they can prepare adequately?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I did. The difficulty is that if I was asked to give certainty now, there would not be a pilot. The certainty I can provide is that students will have the same range of supports and accommodations that students have had up to now and there will be a pilot that will bring on board some students to provide with additional time. If I was forced into a situation of clarifying at this stage how I would provide certainty for all students, it would be to do nothing. That is not something we in the State Examinations Commission, the Department of Education and Youth or the committee would be on board with.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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What does it mean that the process of review will be included in the announcement?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

We will provide details on the review of reasonable accommodations and an indication on the pilot for additional time within the RACE instructions-----

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

-----without including the detail of what that will be.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Ms Feeney said there is frequently additional time available in the existing system. We know the new pilot is taking place. I ask for information on additional time for children with dyslexia and dyscalculia.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Any student using a scribe, including students who have dyslexia and others with learning difficulties, including physical difficulties, is provided with an additional ten minutes per hour or part of an hour for the time overhead in dictation to the scribe. Students who are using assistive technology and are unable to make use, including adequate use, of that in examination conditions are also provided with additional time, as are students with vision impairments. They are the three cohorts.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Students with dyscalculia and dyslexia only receive additional time for two specific reasons. Does the SEC not think it is overplaying the additional time that is available to those students, given the fact that there are only two ways in which they can avail of additional time at the moment?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I am clarifying what is available within the scheme.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I would not overstate the additional time that is there. That sounds quite limited.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

It is constrained within the scheme currently. That is fair.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. It seems like we are doing a whole review of the bigger picture, while a specific and important cohort of children needs to be prioritised. Would Ms Feeney not agree that the evidence is there to make a decision for these students?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Is the Deputy referring to students with dyslexia?

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

That would be extremely difficult to do because there are 36,000 students being provided with accommodations within the scheme. Students with dyslexia are included in the 70% of the cohort who have learning difficulties. Some 25,000 students are being provided with reasonable accommodation supports at the moment for learning difficulties. Equally, I am sure there are children with general learning difficulties who would benefit from additional time in examinations if that is something that was available to them.

There are also students in the physical category, some 13,000 students, who would benefit from additional time if it was something that was available to them. I appreciate that there are particular concerns in respect of students with dyslexia, but we have to consider the broader scheme and totality of students that might benefit from additional time if it was available to them under the scheme.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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How long would that take? Will it take two to three years?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

That process of-----

Joe Conway (Independent)
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I was interested in getting a few facts and figures from the witnesses. When I started teaching in the early 1970s, dyslexia was not on the radar at all. It was only when I finished my first 12 years teaching in south Dublin that it began to come onto the radar and present in classrooms and as a worry to parents. In light of that, when did the special provisions and measures to assist students come in? Can Ms Feeney put a date on it?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

In 1994, accommodations started to be provided in an ad hoc way.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Okay. We are talking about 30 years ago.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

The first scheme was introduced in 1999 or 2000. An expert advisory group commissioned by the then Minister, Deputy Micheál Martin, was chaired by Tom Callaghan from Drumcondra who put in place the first expert advisory group on which the scheme of reasonable accommodations was founded. That scheme has been developed.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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At a minimum, we have had a quarter of a century of these measures. Is it fair to ask how it has taken quarter of a century to get to a stage where we are discussing a putative pilot?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I am not sure I understand the question.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Meileann muilte Dé go mall.

The wheels of God grind slowly. A quarter of a century to go from the introduction of a scheme to now developing a pilot scheme seems inordinately tardy to me.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

We need to look at what happened to the scheme within that time. The examinations commission was set up in 2003, shortly after the first formal scheme of reasonable accommodations. In 2003, only 5% of students taking the certificate examinations were being provided with any form of supports. That number has increased exponentially. In fact, in the last two years, the proportion of students being accommodated within the scheme has gone from 22% to 26%. There have been significant changes over that time based on review of the scheme in 2007 and 2008, and another one in 2016 and 2017. We have seen massive changes in the types of accommodations being provided to students.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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My time is very confined and I want to ask Ms Feeney another question. With regard to special measures for dyslexia, how much investigation does the State Examinations Commission put into comparators, where there are acknowledged progressive regimens of education? New Zealand is an example. Does the commission do comparators with how those regimens approach the work? How does the SEC measure up against them?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

We do, but one of the reasons we need to await the review process is to undertake that research into international best practice. We can look at research and see what is happening in other communities, but we need an external provider to undertake a meta-analysis and to undertake real, deep research with those external bodies to look at what is best practice.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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I will ask Ms Feeney another question based on that because I am conscious that my time is almost gone. She mentioned that examination on comparators. Is that done in-house or do contractors do it?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

No. In this case, we are looking at a major piece of research being undertaken by an external provider.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Who might that be?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

There is a public procurement process ongoing at the moment, so I cannot say. That contract should be placed in the coming weeks. There is one facet of the scheme that Ireland was unique on, namely, the development of the spelling and grammar waiver, which came in as part of the Callaghan expert advisory group. As far as we know, up to a certain point, it was unique to the Irish jurisdiction to have a spelling and grammar waiver. That is one of the aspects that we need to particularly look at in the context of reviewing and undertaking that research.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am up next on the speaking roster. I hope this line of questioning does not come across as glib because there is a point I wish to get to. How many staff are working in the State Examinations Commission?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

The entire organisation has an authorised staffing complement of 236. Because of the seasonal nature of what we do, we increase that by about 110 at the key processing period every year. It is a small organisation delivering a very big national service. We do that through schools. It is a devolved model of work.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. The reason I am asking is that I was a primary teacher. We did not have much to do with the State Examinations Commission. I am sure teachers and students often wonder what is going on in the State Examinations Commission in the months when the junior certificate and leaving certificate are not happening and grades are not being verified. Without getting into the full depths of it, could Ms Feeney tell us a little bit about what the State Examinations Commission is doing?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

At the moment, we are in the midst of issuing junior cycle results.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, that will be next week.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

We are just finishing with the appeals. Next week, the junior cycle results are going out.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Does it ease off a little bit after that?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

No, actually. We have four strategic pillars within the organisation. One is delivering the examinations. The second is the senior cycle redevelopment, which we are working on with the NCCA, the Department of education and others. The third is the review of reasonable accommodations. This is quite a big piece of our work. The fourth is digital transformation. We are a very digital-forward organisation.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I think everyone here appreciates the seasonal spikes and the huge pressure with exams. There is a lot going on there, but the commission is also reasonably well resourced. There are arms of the State and State bodies that do not have 200 staff filling their offices. Given that the commission is resourced to that extent, how was it, in 2009, that the commission's own expert advisory group internally said there should be extended time under the reasonable accommodations? Why has it taken from 2009 to 2025? I actually calculated that Sive was born in 2009 when this recommendation was made. We heard from her that she did not get to the end of a single examination paper that she sat in her junior certificate. That is an absolute failure. This recommendation went before the commission in 2009. There are seasonal spikes with examinations during which teachers are contracted in to correct papers. There are then these pillars that the commission is following. One of the key recommendations from one of those pillars was that it do all of this, yet in 2025, another review will come out and we cannot guarantee that any student preparing for junior or senior cycle will benefit from this. How has it taken so long with inaction?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I will go back to the point about the seasonal spikes. The delivery of examinations is year-round. The 2026 examinations have already commenced. That process is not that one finishes and the other starts and there is a lull. In actual fact, we are moving into one of our busiest periods of the year in terms of the development of the 2026 examinations. To clarify in terms of what we do-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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How can there be inaction from 2009 to-----

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I would not categorise it as inaction. The 2009 report made two-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is paralysis of decision-making, at least.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

-----contradictory recommendations. On the one hand, it recommended a broader scheme or additional time and, on the other, it recommended removing two supports in relation to additional time. Rather than action that, a decision was taken at that time to leave things as they were at that particular time. A further review was done in 2016 and 2017 and changes were made to the scheme which really progressed the scheme. The Cathaoirleach has seen the increases in the number of students who are being accommodated within the scheme. I would put that back to the 2016-17 review and the progress that was made. I would not classify-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If I can interject, I will go back to the point that this recommendation was first put internally in 2009, the year that Sive was born. Sive is just one example of thousands of students. She has gone all through preschool, primary school and has likely had learning support. NEPS has been involved. There are copious reports and recommendations, and now she is quite close to finishing her formal schooling. How is it, in all that time, that the cogs of this system have failed to act on those key recommendations? How is it that the data set of those 36,000 students, with years of data being inputted - we all know there is such detail on students on systems that teachers log and feed up to Departments - cannot be critically analysed and the figures are not pulled out to decide who is eligible? How can that be the case?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

It is a complex issue. If it was a straightforward issue, we would have resolved it by now. I have mentioned the fact that contradictory recommendations were made. We recognise how difficult it would be to withdraw the accommodations that are there, but we do have a responsibility to ensure public trust and confidence in the system of examinations and to ensure the examinations are fair for all students, not just students with special educational needs, although their needs are extremely important to us, in order that we can say in the future that the examinations continue to be fair. We need an opportunity to look at the cumulative impact of additional time on top of the accommodations that are already there.

I respect the Cathaoirleach's view. There has been no inaction in the State Examinations Commission in relation to reasonable accommodations. We have seen very significant changes to the scheme in the last number of years, including the introduction of a deferred leaving certificate for students experiencing crisis at examination time, greater use of assistive technology within the scheme-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I better stick to my own rules. I better move on. I call Deputy Jen Cummins.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. I am quite cross. I have a child who is in sixth year and this will not benefit her. As her mother who has advocated for her for such a long time in the education system, I can say the system does not support children with additional needs. This is an example of it.

Ms Feeney just mentioned fairness for all students. I will tell her now that the education system is not fair for children with disabilities and dyslexia. It is actually infuriating. I am sorry that I am so emotional, but I do not understand why we have exams that are three hours and 20 minutes long in the first place. That was one of the points made earlier. We do not need exams that long. What are we examining? We are supposed to be examining a snapshot of what students need to learn. I cannot wait for the leaving certificate reforms to come in to stop this sort of stuff. We will never be able to accommodate children with dyslexia or visually impaired students with extra time if they have to then go beyond three hours and 20 minutes. I accept that it is very difficult. Let us cut the exam altogether to make it fair for everybody.

We do not need pilots here. Other jurisdictions are doing this. Our third level institutions are doing this. I know it was said that the threshold is lower or different from our threshold, but let the State Examinations Commission move it so that it is in line with third level. Dyslexia does not disappear. The way that students are learning continues all the way through their lives. If they are able to thrive in third level but not at second level, it is because the system at second level is wrong.

It was mentioned earlier that RACE instructions are issued to schools and that is how it is known what accommodation is needed for students.

If those instructions are being issued and the school is saying students need additional time, why does that need to be second-guessed? They are being given the instructions. Previously, people have said it is about checking to make sure it is not being taken advantage of, which absolutely needs to happen. However, if the SEC knows that the schools are saying that, why cannot they be believed? Why can it not be taken on the basis of that it is accepted that they need to a scribe - and I know that they have additional time - but if it is accepted that students have a spelling and grammar waiver, can it not be accepted that they need extra time?

The other matter is that 36,000 people use the RACE scheme and 25,000 of them just have dyslexia. There is the number. I do not know what the SEC has to keep researching for. A public tender must be put out to look at good practice elsewhere. Representatives from Dyslexia Ireland who are the experts were before the committee earlier. Parents like me are experts in the way our children need to learn and what they need. Why must the Department spend all that time and money when the expertise is available? We have academics. We are such a highly educated group. It is of course thanks to people in the commission that we have a highly-educated population in this country. Let us listen to those experts and let us stop delaying it.

It is quite difficult to sit as a parent and having worked in the school completion programme for such a long time and see this system saying "No" to these children. It is about equity. As one contributor said so eloquently earlier, the delay is the problem. The Department needs extra time but our students need extra time. That is the most important issue. I am sorry I did not leave enough time for the response.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will give Ms Feeney about a minute. I am giving everyone a little over the time.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Regarding the point the Deputy made at the outset relating to the length of the exams and why they have to be three hours and 28 minute examinations or three hours and 10 minute examinations, our role is to assess the curriculum. It is to assess the specifications and the learning outcomes. The examinations are designed to test that. At the moment, many of our examinations are based on the final written examination. Some have additional components. In the context of senior cycle redevelopment, which the Deputy mentioned, change is coming. That will provide an opportunity to shorten the final examinations which should change because at least 40% of the marks in all subjects will have been gained before the final written examinations. There is an opportunity there to look at time in the examinations. On the pilot and the reason, I tried to explain why we need time. It is done differently in other jurisdictions. We have a spelling and grammar waiver that does not apply in all other jurisdictions. We have additional time on the timetable for all. As I mentioned, we need time to look at the cumulative impact of that.

In regard to the 25,000 who have dyslexia, it is actually 25,000 who have learning difficulties and within that-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will give time at the end to wrap up. I am conscious of the constraints so I will give time at the end to conclude some remarks. Senator Shane Curley is our final contributor. Apologies, Deputy O'Rourke has rejoined us.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. The mantra constantly thrown about both when I was a student in secondary school and a teacher for ten years in second level was that the leaving certificate is a test of what you know, not what you do not know. I completely disagree with that, based on evidence. Can I have a simple yes-no answer? Will the 2026 leaving certificate for students with dyslexia and dyscalculia get extra time in the examinations?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

There will be a pilot.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Just "Yes" or "No" please.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

There will be a pilot.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Why are we doing a pilot on something that is very evidently destroying the mental health of young people? Why do we not just roll it out and be less cautious? Ms Feeney said there are 236 permanent staff, and that number rises to 346 at peak times. She mentioned international best practice and subcontracting reviews that will cost the taxpayer millions of euro. Why are we doing that?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

In terms of credibility, undertaking research in this way-----

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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No, we have no credibility. We are destroying kids' mental health by putting them through examinations. In the case of Sive, she did not finish one of her junior certificate examinations. I am a teacher who was so handcuffed by the system that I am literally traumatised by what I put kids through as a teacher. The SEC made me do that because teachers teach to examinations, so that kids get the points and do the course that is their dream in college. The SEC makes that happen. Is the SEC comfortable with the way its examinations are destroying the mental health of young people in this country? "Yes" or "No"?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

That is a loaded question.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I just want a yes-no answer.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Be reasonable, Deputy. It is not a fair charge.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms Feeney tell me with credibility that 17 years of zero progress on extra time for dyslexia is, as she called it, not inaction?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Very significant changes have been made to the scheme of reasonable accommodations over that time.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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How much extra time do kids with dyslexia have?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

They may have additional time if they are using a scribe.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Do all kids with dyslexia now have some extra time in an examination?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

No, they do not.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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So, after 17 years, there is zero progress for every student in this country.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

The focus there is what is not in the scheme. Additional time is not in the scheme.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I am not trying to be rude but I only have four minutes. Am I non-factual by saying that all students have not been catered for? Have we seen action for every student since 17 years ago when the first recommendation was made on this?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Yes, we have.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Can we now say that every single student with dyslexia has extra time in their examination?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

No, not in-----

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Therefore there is not progress for every student.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Progress will be made soon.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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We heard from Sive. She did not finish one of her examinations.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Examinations are inherently stressful.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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They are inherently stressful because of the curriculum. I will get to that on another day with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. The SEC can only implement an examination for which its sets the curriculum. I understand-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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On policy, the Minister will be here another day. I will give extra seconds at the end but from a policy point of view, when we have officials in, we can question implementation and challenge on how it is being implemented but if we are talking about policy and the overall ethos of an examination, that is for the Minister. I will give the Senator extra time now.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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We have staff in an office who for 17 years have not made sure that every single student with dyslexia or dyscalculia who needs extra time is catered for. This argument that there has not been inaction has zero credibility.

The last issue is leaving certificate reform. I agree with almost everything Deputy Cummins said and I am not really looking forward to the reforms when they are put in because the marks for the Irish oral examination are being reduced. That caters for no student with dyslexia who struggles with prose and poetry. That needs to be examined. Can I have a comment on that?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I am interjecting, but reform is for the Minister but the Senator's question will get answered.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Does the SEC not draft the specification for the examination and then send it to the NCCA?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

We implement-----

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Fair enough, I accept that and thanks for being here. I am just really frustrated with the system. I was a teacher for ten years. It is destroying kids' lives. We all have a body of work to do to improve the system. Is that fair enough?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I cannot disagree with the overall ethos. That is what is being done through the programme of senior cycle redevelopment. In terms of the charges that have been levied against the SEC and what we preside over, we preside over a very, very high-quality system of examinations that is internationally regarded and respected, and that enjoys huge public trust and confidence.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I have no confidence or trust in the dyslexia side. Does the SEC accept that 17 years passed, where in 2009 the recommendation was made and in 2026 we do not have a definite path to every student having extra time in an examination, that they are crying out for? We heard from Sive. Does Ms Feeney accept that there is major inaction somewhere?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I accept that there is a need for change.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Feeney.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Feeney. I am sorry but I had to take a question in the Dáil so I missed some of the start. Does she accept that the decision not to act on the recommendations of the 2009 report has continued to disadvantage children with dyslexia?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

It depends. I am sorry not to answer the question directly. The 2009 report did not just make one recommendation.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I asked a specific question on the recommendation for additional time that was made in 2009. Does Ms Feeney accept that the decision the SEC made not to act on that specifically has continued to disadvantage children with dyslexia?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

It is a difficult one to answer. I am not not answering the question because the group at that time made three recommendations on time. We cannot pick out one recommendation and action that and not look at the other two.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is that not exactly the point? It is ethically, morally and politically reprehensible and bankrupt actually not to act on that. Ms Feeney's argument is: "Well, there was a number of recommendations and we had to balance them out and we could not go to the politicians or population and say we are taking 20 minutes off here or taking that the grammar and spelling accommodation off, so what we will do is disproportionately disadvantage this group of people with dyslexia and dyscalculia who need additional time. That is the trade-off." Is that not effectively what she is saying?

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I do not believe there has been a trade-off. We are not looking at dyslexia and dyscalculia as diagnoses because the scheme is not diagnosis-led; it is based on individual needs.

Students with dyscalculia and dyslexia are accommodated within the scheme on the grounds of learning difficulty but not as a distinct group. There are lots of other students-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The State Examinations Commission has ignored a specific recommendation that would level the playing field. There is significant international evidence to show that even when you give extra time to children with dyslexia and dyscalculia, they do not have an advantage over their peers. In fact, it brings them up to a level. Unfortunately, 15 years later, the SEC is about to look at that international evidence. There is a real question there about what the commission has been doing in the meantime.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

Other decisions in respect of the RACE scheme were made at the time. We have talked about time today. I cannot turn back the clock.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I cannot go back to the decisions that were made at the time the group reported. Conflicting recommendations were being made and it was decided at that stage to make other changes to the scheme that would seek to ensure that students who required access and support arrangements were provided with them. The scheme has changed considerably since the time of that expert advisory group, which was chaired by Professor Áine Hyland. Should we have done things differently at the time? I do not know, to be honest. We can keep going back to that report. It is one we need to consider in the context of the various measures that are being provided and assess the cumulative impact.

We have international expertise on our steering group. There is international research on the impact of additional time, which states that it can put students under greater pressure in the examinations. Perhaps that is not the case for students with learning difficulties but it is for those with other forms of difficulties. They can feel that the additional time they are getting is counterproductive. It can also create fatigue for students. We have had feedback from individual students who were provided with additional time in their examinations. They reported fatigue because of the length of time they spent on the examinations. They did not feel they got a sufficient break between the two examinations and sought an extended timetable to require they sit only one examination per day because they were provided with additional time. Those are the kinds of complex issues through which we need to work. We must consider how to manage all of this.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The SEC has had the lifetime of a child to resolve those issues.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

We were doing a lot of other things.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The SEC is specifically tasked with dealing with that issue. It is the responsibility of the SEC. In response to my own question, the vast majority of people would say that the SEC's decision not to act on that recommendation has compounded the disadvantage. That is my opinion.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes members' questions. I thank everyone. The nature of these committees is that we interject. There may have been elements of responses that the witnesses did not get to complete or whatever else. I ask them to be concise, but the lead speakers might want to take an additional two minutes to clarify or wrap up any bits we missed along the way in their responses. I ask members not to come in. These are concluding statements.

Ms Celeste O'Callaghan:

I thank the Chairman. I wanted to pick up on an earlier comment that a decision had been made to reduce the weighting given to the oral Irish examination. To clarify, no decision to do that has been made. The overall specification for leaving certificate Irish is being redeveloped under senior cycle redevelopment. It is in tranche 4 so there are a number of years to go. There will be a draft specification in due course and there will be consultation on all of that. It is to be expected that a full focus on oral and aural skills will be reflected in that. It is important to clarify that point.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms O'Callaghan for that clarification. I call Ms Feeney.

Ms Andrea Feeney:

I will make a more general point about the scheme and the system of examinations over which the SEC presides. We want every individual student to be able to perform to the best of his or her ability in the examinations. We do not have a "Gotcha" examinations situation. We are trying to test students. It is a measure of attainment and as a result, there is a competitive nature to it. In providing that system, we are trying to be fair to all students taking their examinations and to do our best to provide a system of examinations in which there continues to be public trust and confidence.

The team that operates the RACE scheme provides an individual service to schools and candidates. It has been said of us that we are one of the few organisations that when you ring, you can talk to a person. We get a lot of feedback from schools. It would be unfair of me to come here today and not mention the team that provides a system of support for candidates who are taking their examinations. All candidates are important to us, whether they have special needs or not. When they are undertaking their examinations, they have high expectations of the service with which they are being provided. They might not like it because it is an examination, but they expect it to be provided in a context that they feel is well delivered and well organised. That is what we have set out to do. We aim to provide the best possible scheme to administer the system as fairly as we can. We are committed to changing it and are undertaking a process of review. There will be changes but I will mention again that we need time to work that through. There are, however, imminent changes that will be introduced for 2026.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Feeney. I apologise again to members and witnesses for the number of interjections. There is so much to discuss. All of us at the committee found the testimony of Ms Sive O'Brien in the first session compelling. There is a further body of work to be done. That is a light way of saying it.

I thank the witnesses for attending. Their briefing was informative and I appreciate it. I thank, as always, the secretariat and clerical team of the committee for all of its work to make the committee meetings happen and function. I also thank the technical team behind us. On behalf of the members, I thank the witnesses and those who have tuned in from home.