Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 16 July 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport
Irish Aviation Authority: Engagement
2:00 am
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Emer Currie. The purpose of the meeting today is to discuss an overview of the work of the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, in particular management of Irish airspace, air traffic safety, commercial aviation, environmental impact of aviation and consumer protection. I am pleased to welcome from the IAA Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick, chief executive; and Dr. Adrian Corcoran, director of economic regulation, licensing and consumer affairs.
I will read some notes on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
I now invite Mr. Fitzpatrick to make his opening statement.
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I thank members of the committee for inviting me here today to discuss aviation policy. I am joined by my colleague, Dr. Adrian Corcoran, who is our director of economic regulation, licensing and consumer affairs in the IAA. The committee met with my colleagues Jim Gavin and Enda Walsh last week to discuss unmanned aircraft systems, UAS, aviation.
To give an overview of the work of the IAA, it is the regulator for civil aviation matters in Ireland and is responsible for safety, security and economic regulation. We currently have 200 employees, comprising subject matter experts from multiple disciplines, including aviation engineers, pilots, economists, air traffic controllers, aviation security experts, risk management, aviation law and aviation medicine, to name a few.
IAA's responsibilities are set out in a framework of applicable global, European and national legislation and regulation. Our regulatory functions cover all aspects of civil aviation, including certifying, registering and overseeing aircraft, aviation personnel, airlines, aerodromes, air navigation service providers, training schools and other aerospace businesses. This also includes setting passenger charges at Dublin Airport and the en-route and terminal navigation charges for the services provided by AirNav Ireland in Irish airspace. We also license airlines from an economic perspective; license ground-handling service providers at airports and travel agents; set capacity and co-ordinate slots at Dublin Airport; oversee the regulations on air passenger rights and assistance to passengers with reduced mobility. More recently, we have been assigned responsibility for the European Accessibility Act as it relates to airlines. We have also been assigned additional roles related to the critical entities resilience directive, the network and information systems directive, NIS2, and ReFuelEU, which sets mandates on the use of sustainable aviation fuel in the EU. The IAA is subject to ongoing audit by the International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO, and the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, both of which are external to Ireland.
Our current strategy for 2023-25 is available on the IAA site and sets out our seven key objective areas for the IAA, namely, effective regulation, consumer protection, stakeholder engagement, our people and organisation, innovation and collaboration, exercising influence and environmental responsibility. While considering this strategy of the IAA, it should be noted it is not a function of the IAA to set aviation policy for Ireland. That function remains with the EU, the Government and the Department of Transport. We provide expert advice as and when requested.
I will briefly address the specific matters mentioned in the invite letter from the committee. The management of Irish airspace is conducted on behalf of the State by the air navigation service provider AirNav Ireland, which was formerly a function of the IAA until May 2023. The IAA regulates the service provider on two distinct fronts. First and most important, we are the safety and security regulator. We conduct oversight of AirNav Ireland in accordance with the applicable ICAO and EU regulatory requirements. Second, we are the national supervisory authority under the single European sky regulation which determines the charges AirNav can levy airspace users. This role also includes approving capital investments and setting incentives and targets for capacity and environmental performance for AirNav Ireland.
On air traffic safety, the EU and Irish air traffic management systems have an excellent safety record. The IAA meets its oversight objectives through the provision of a comprehensive risk-based regulatory oversight system, safety management processes which help us focus our regulation towards areas of greatest concern, ongoing monitoring of safety performance, promotion of a positive safety culture and a fair and proportionate regulatory framework. Eurocontrol, the body responsible for network management in Europe, briefed this committee last year on the capacity challenges facing the aviation industry and how efficiency gains can be achieved through the single European sky legislation update.
Specifically on commercial aviation, the IAA oversees commercial aviation organisations, which include aircraft operators, aviation design and manufacturers, maintenance, maintenance management organisations, training organisations - this includes pilots, engineers and air traffic controllers - aerodrome operators, cargo consigners, travel agents, air navigation service providers, ground handlers and other related services to aviation. In addition, we license circa 25,000 personnel who support these activities. These are pilots and aircraft maintenance engineers. The scope of these activities ranges from large airlines, for example, Ryanair and Aer Lingus, to smaller enterprises such as niche production and maintenance organisations.
As a general summary, commercial aviation in Ireland continues to grow and provide high-quality jobs. Continued growth will depend on how we address the projected shortage of key staff, particularly aircraft maintenance engineers. There are also opportunities to grow pilot training capacity in Ireland, particularly in the regional areas. Aviation is essential for any modern society to function and thrive, with more than 90% of people setting foot in Ireland doing so by air. It should be considered in the context of any essential utility which the whole population must be able to access and benefit from, such as water, electricity, broadband, mobile phone coverage, trains, buses and roads.
Similar to every other utility, it has an environmental impact which needs to be improved. There are four key pillars to reducing the environmental impact of aviation. The first is aircraft and engine technology; second is the operational improvements and improvements in the airspace and airport efficiency; third is sustainable aviation fuel; and fourth is market-based measures, including ReFuelEU which mandates the use of SAF and for which we have been established as the authority in Ireland for certain aspects of this. We have established our sustainable aviation division which will oversee its implementation.
There are three distinct areas under consumer protection overseen by the IAA, namely, accessibility of air transport, air passenger rights where there is a disruption, and insolvency protection for consumers of travel agents and tour operators. On accessibility, we are the compliance authority under the European Accessibility Act which came into effect across the EU on 28 June 2025. The EAA introduces new EU-wide accessibility requirements for digital services and support services, ensuring passengers with disabilities can travel end-to-end with greater independence and confidence. We also oversee the provision of physical assistance to disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility when travelling by air. Regarding air passenger rights, we oversee the regulation which ensures passengers are looked after by their airline in the event of a flight cancellation or long delay.
I have tried to be as brief as possible in the opening submission which I hope has brought some clarity on the various roles we have. We are happy to address any questions the committee may have.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Fitzpatrick and Dr. Corcoran for their attendance at today's session of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport. Aviation is a critical enabler of economic activity and regional development. I look forward to constructive engagement on several different matters, some of which are critical, as well as issues relating to capacity constraints, technological change, climate targets, post-Brexit regulatory alignment, the viability of our five regional airports which account for only 16% of overall traffic and, of course, the urgent need for a new aviation policy.
On that, I give the floor to our first member, Deputy Daly, for seven minutes.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I have a couple of questions on the strategy on regional balance. I am a TD for County Kerry and Kerry Airport is a great facility. John Mulhern and his team have done a great job in that you can leave your house and be on a plane in less than an hour. Also having regard to Shannon and Cork airports, what changes need to be made to ensure more regional balance? Has the IAA met with the Minister on that?
I note there was a mid-term review of regional airports in 2023, which was never published. Was the IAA involved in that review? Did it have any engagement with the Minister?
There was a recent parliamentary question in May about the landing slots in Dublin Airport. In the reply, it mentioned the final decision on summer 2025 co-ordination parameters. There were referral parameters in relation to terminal 2 check-in desks and US pre-clearance. What is meant by “referral parameters”? How do they work in practice?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
Starting on the regional balance with Shannon, Cork, Kerry and the other airports, all those airports have capacity. They are not anywhere near their full capacity. From safety and security perspectives, they can grow. We would not see an issue with them growing. They have adequate runway capacity and gates. Security systems in those airports have all been modernised. We participate in the regional programme for those airports only in the context of whether the various projects they propose are actually required for safety or security. We have no specific role with the Department on determining whether more flights should go to those airports. It is not within our remit. We have not met with the Minister specifically on regional development. We participate if something is an appropriate safety or security project and provide our technical input there.
Would Dr. Corcoran like to add anything?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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When Dr. Corcoran says “processors”-----
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
This is everything you go through in the airport, whether it is security, the capacity of the terminals, the stands for the aircraft or the runway. Most of those have what we call hard constraints. We set the capacity and then the co-ordinator, independent of the airport and airlines, allocates those into slots. In most cases, the parameters are hard constraints. Once they hit the constraint, they stop. The referral parameters that the Deputy mentioned on CBP and terminal 2 check-in desks are handled somewhat-----
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
Yes, it is the US pre-clearance. It is the number of passengers you can have going through that. They are handled somewhat differently. When you reach the limit, the co-ordinator will work with the airport to see whether there is a workaround. Can the check-in desk, for example, be managed slightly differently to try to fit in another flight? They are more like a soft constraint.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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That is being expanded. Is there planning permission for expanding the pre-clearance facility?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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How long will that take to get through?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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In the meantime, if it takes a few years, should capacity parameters be set in Dublin Airport? As Dr. Corcoran said, it is tight on numbers there. There are often delays. I understand that the airport slots could change over the course of a season, so some slots could be cancelled, etc. The capacity parameters could be done. Would the IAA consider doing that? Many of the passengers end up going to the regions anyway. If there were capacity limits, they might be encouraged to move to the regions.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
We set the capacity for winter season and summer season. The winter season is five months and the summer season is seven months. Effectively, every six months, we are looking at this again. We assess the demand and the capacity of each of those facilities. Where there is a problem with capacity, we set a hard constraint. For the US pre-clearance, it is being managed at the moment. I do not think there is a problem there.
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
Just to be clear, with our regulation, our function is, essentially, to understand what the maximum capacity is and then set the parameters to allow for that. Each period when we do the process, we set those parameters. If we felt there was not enough capacity, the parameters would pull back a little bit. Our purpose is to be objective and to make sure that-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be logical to integrate CBP throughput into future capacity assessments?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Does Dr. Corcoran think it is working at the moment? There is congestion there with it.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their time. I will focus on the role the IAA has in consumer protection. I know of many cases where people have had difficulties securing their entitlements from airlines where there have been flight cancellations or delays. I was engaging with the IAA quite recently on a case where a family’s flights for a family holiday were cancelled by Ryanair. I will use this case as an example because it is particularly shocking. The airline tried to misinform this person about their rights under the EU regulation on a number of different occasions and refused to act on its responsibility to provide alternative travel plans. When she complained to the IAA, she was initially told that this issue was outside of the IAA’s remit. It took her informing the IAA of this regulation for the IAA to then agree to act on her complaint. The IAA told her it may take six months to investigate. Will the witnesses briefly outline the IAA’s role in enforcing the regulation? Does the IAA take that role seriously? How long does it typically take to investigate complaints made under the regulation?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I will hand over to Dr. Corcoran in a moment. Our role is set out in the regulation for air passenger rights. We processed approximately 4,500 complaints last year. The vast majority of those were handled properly and to the satisfaction of the applicants - the complainants. The process does take some time because we have to gather the information from the person; we then have to contact the airline, and this includes airlines outside of Ireland; and we then get their position back, we adjudge it, and go back and forth. It takes quite some time. I will let Dr. Corcoran explain in more detail.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fitzpatrick mentioned the vast majority of the 4,500 complaints are resolved to the satisfaction of the applicant. How many of those cases are resolved to the satisfaction of the applicant? Is it in the IAA’s view or in the view of the person who has made the complaint that it is resolved to satisfaction?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
We publish those figures in our annual report. I do not have them to hand but we can share them with the Deputy. There is a complaint process. If we have adjudicated or adjudged that there is not a payment to be made, the person has the opportunity to make a further complaint to us to reassess it. There is not a big number of those. I will let Dr. Corcoran come in with some more detail.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
I thank the Deputy for the question and for his representations to us in that case. As Mr. Fitzpatrick said, we dealt with approximately 4,500 complaints last year. In the vast majority of those cases - in fact almost all of them - the complainant came to us after the disruption had already happened. People are travelling. Their flights can be cancelled or delayed. The airline is obliged to look after them in the moment of the disruption. The process operates, and if they feel they did not get their entitlements after the disruption is completed, they complain to their airline. We ask passengers to do that first. If the airline does not resolve the matter within six weeks, they can then make a complaint to us. At that point, we get into a kind of, for want of a better term, dispute resolution process with the airline. The airline involved will have an opportunity to make representations to us. That all takes time. It takes time to gather the evidence before we make a decision on a particular case. Most of the cases we get relate not to an airline looking after passengers or getting them to where they need to be and providing care and assistance during the disruption but, rather, to whether the passengers involved are entitled to additional compensation because of the disruption. The resolution results are about 50-50 in the context of whether we decide a passenger is or is not entitled to compensation. When we explain it to passengers, they are generally satisfied with the outcome.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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What specific powers does the IAA have to ensure that airlines meet their obligations under the regulation? What kind of enforcement measures can it take? Does it follow complaints to the end, including smaller issues such as people's entitlements to meals and refreshments and so on?
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
When we have exhausted our standard process, we can issue an airline with a direction. In most scenarios, we do not get to that point. Most matters are resolved before we have to take enforcement action. We do take such action, however. We issue a direction. If that is not complied with, we can go to the District Court.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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How many times did that happen last year?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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In the context of 4,500 complaints, the IAA has only issued 20 directions. It is satisfied that in the vast majority of cases, these issues are resolved and there is no need to take enforcement proceedings.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Going back to my earlier question, does the IAA follow through completely on the complaints that are made? In the case I dealt with, my constituent was advised to go to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, with the outstanding issues. Does the IAA follow through fully?
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
We have a particular remit. If a customer has an issue with an airline that goes beyond our remit, we cannot deal with it. The regulation lays out the entitlements of customers and we make sure they are given those entitlements, but in certain scenarios, there may be other agencies that could help the customer. I am not familiar with the particular case or why it was suggested that the customer go to the CCPC.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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It was to do with meals and refreshments. The IAA closed the case before the issue was resolved. That is why I am asking whether these things are fully followed through. This is a smaller part of it, but it is still frustrating for people. What is frustrating in this case is that it took weeks and months of back and forth with the IAA to get the matter investigated and then to get a partial resolution. As that person involved said to me, they were in a position where they had the time and energy to fight the case. Not everyone would be able to do so. Some people can be left high and dry by airlines because they do not have the time. Is that a concern for the IAA?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
It is of course. We want our process to be as quick as possible. In the past two years, we have invested in the process quite heavily. We introduced a new digital platform that allows a person to submit a complaint to us. More importantly, in the background, it links to the airlines to make sure we can speed up the interaction with them as well. We are seeing our timelines come down, but it is still a lengthy process. It is not that someone submits a complaint on Monday and has an answer by Friday. It takes a lot of back and forth.
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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If an airline is misleading customers about their rights under the EU regulation, are there any consequences for that airline? Does that come under the IAA's remit?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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Have there been any specific actions against airlines around that?
Louis O'Hara (Galway East, Sinn Fein)
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That is concerning because it gives airlines an opportunity to take advantage of their customers if the IAA does not take any enforcement action against them for misleading customers about their rights under that regulation. That is what happened in the case I outlined. The airline tried to take advantage of the customer. The IAA should reflect on that.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I will ask about the IAA strategy and effective regulation. If regulation is not effective, it is not really regulation at all. The stands out for me.
This is about the transportation of weapons of war. I know from replies to questions submitted to the Minister for Transport that between October 2023 and June 2025 no exemptions were requested or granted for the carriage of munitions to any part of Israel. I do not know whether I fully believe that, but I will take the Minister at his word. I wonder about the regulation part. How effectively can we regulate to say that no munitions of war are being carried on Irish aircraft, despite looking for exemptions. We regulate all our other sectors, including those relating to nursing homes, early years education and schools. Does the IAA have the power to improve regulation? How can we assist it in doing that? Is the oversight? I would imagine aircraft should expect to be inspected, like other sectors expect they will be inspected. That is what I wonder about effective regulation.
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
In the context of that matter, we talk about how we go about regulating and about implementing the regulation. ICAO Annex 19 is focused on safety management systems. It is how to go about identifying risks and hazards, how to assess them and how to mitigate against them. It is also about the whole assurance process, how we make sure airlines, maintenance organisations and so on are all complying with that regulation as we go along. When we talk about effective regulation, we are talking about how we make sure it is being done in the most effective manner. Regulation in aviation has evolved over 50, 60 or 70 years. Some of it is compliance-based and is not really effective any more. At an ICAO or global level or European level with the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, we would look at such things as whether a regulation is effective any more, whether it is useful and whether it is achieving the objective we set for it. If it is not, we will look at better processes.
In aviation at the moment, it is very much about risk-based oversight, identifying where the key risks are and making sure that is what we focus on. That has proved very beneficial over the past 20 years. Accident rates, including those relating to fatal accidents, have all come drastically down compared with where they were 20 years ago. Getting into-----
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
Yes. We do inspect aircraft. When aircraft land in Ireland, we have programmes for inspecting aircraft and that is normal. What the Senator is talking about in terms of munitions of war actually does not fall within our remit. That matter lies with the Department of Transport. Again, our function is the civil aviation system. We regulate that; we do not have a specific role with respect to state or military aircraft. That is outside our remit. That is not to say that civil aircraft will not sometimes have munitions of war on board. That could be as simple as a bodyguard for a head of state to a much bigger issue, but we do not have a specific role there. That rests with, I believe, the Departments of Transport and foreign affairs.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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That is what I would have imagined. Effective regulation would include the right to inspect.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I want to ask about environmental impacts. I see reference to sustainable aviation fuel. I know very little about that. What is it made of? Is grain used to make such fuel and, if so, will that affect food production? I do not know what sustainable fuel is and maybe the officials can give me a bit more information about that. Will it have an impact on food production?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
Sustainable aviation fuel can come from a number of sources. Biomass is one. That could be a specific crop grown, harvested and processed into an aviation fuel. What the sources of this are is a big concern globally. In the long run and in order to hit the mandates for 2050, we are looking more at synthetic fuel development. This would be things like power to hydrogen, which is wind generating hydrogen and hydrogen being processed with carbon to make the fuel we need for aviation. That is further down the road. At present, the focus globally is on biomass and that sort of process. It would be very interesting for the committee to meet with Trinity College Dublin at some stage, because it is assigned as the clearing house for sustainable aviation fuels in Europe. It has a very specific role there, and it would be worth meeting with those involved. They will explain it a lot better than I ever could.
I will hand over to Dr. Corcoran to explain our role in the ReFuelEU mandate. We have a couple of specific tasks there.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
We are a competent authority for ReFuelEU. There are a couple of competent authorities in Ireland for it but we are the competent authority in relation to airlines and airports. There are two core elements to that. One is mandates on the use of sustainable aviation fuel. Since 1 January last, all fuel supplied for aviation in Europe has to be 2% SAF. It is a small start, but it is a start. By 2030, the figure will increase to 6%. By 2050, it will be up to 60%. There are stepped mandates throughout the period to 2050. There is also part of that regulation which is trying to prevent the airlines from tankering fuel for economic reasons. Tankering fuel obviously burns more fuel because of carrying the extra weight, but airlines may also take the opportunity to have their aircraft pick up fuel where it is cheaper and carry it with them. The regulation prevents that. Since 1 January, airlines have to pick up 90% of the fuel needed for their journey at each stop and our remit is to assess whether or not they did that at the end of the year.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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That is the regulation part and it has commenced.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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The officials are welcome. We really appreciate them giving of their time.
I know the officials do not deal with the regional balance for airports, but I am going to twist the question in a way and frame it in the context of the environmental impact of aviation. It may not be the fuel for the aircraft, but many people flying here to visit the west coast land in Dublin because 80% or so of the flights come to Dublin Airport. People are getting off flights and getting on buses or into cars, so it has an environmental impact in one sense. Shannon Airport has a capacity of 5 million but it only caters for 2 million at present. The authorities at the airport refers to it taking 15 minutes from getting out of the car to getting on the plane. Dublin Airport is at capacity. It is sometimes crazy when you go in there. I do not like having to be the airport two hours before a flight. I live in Limerick, so I am used to Shannon. I had an hour and a half before a flight to Liverpool last week, and I ran through Dublin Airport. I could not get over how busy it was going through security. There are airports in Cork, Shannon and Knock and they are nearly empty. You fly through them. At the same time, I would not like to see Shannon Airport become like Dublin Airport, because that would take the novelty of the 15 minutes from getting out of the car and onto the flight away. Surely, however, there should be a bit of rebalancing there, particularly in the context of the environmental impact. The officials are going to tell me they do not deal with regional balance.
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
No. What the Senator is suggesting is that flights coming in from North America should land at Shannon first. I do not know the figures, but I suggest that the difference between landing in Shannon and Dublin is marginal from a sustainability point of view. These aircraft start descending from 39,000 ft. They come in very slowly. It is just minutes between Shannon and Dublin when you are descending in from the Atlantic, so I do not know whether there would be a big difference there when it comes to burning fuel. From our perspective, we do not care where they land once they land safely and securely and everything is done properly.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I just wanted to get that in. I said I would throw it in under the environmental heading. I do not know about the fuel for the aircraft or how much more it would take. Mr. Fitzpatrick said it is only minutes from Shannon to Dublin on a flight, but it is a long way by car. The torment arises when you have to go Dublin because flights do not leave from your local regional airport.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will come in now. I again the officials for their attendance. We have a concentration in our airport traffic, with 84% of it going through Dublin Airport. I looked at some other European countries. In Portugal, 54% of traffic goes through its dominant airports. It is as high as 70% in Belgium. If we look at our nearest neighbours, at Heathrow it is 30%. Is 84% of all air traffic going through one airport a matter of concern for the IAA?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
It is not a specific concern from a safety or security perspective. Again, when comparing with other European states, it must be recognised we are an island. There are various numbers of airports in the different countries, and that will influence it. There are different major conurbations. For example, many people in Belgium travel to Schiphol Airport to get flights, depending on where they want to go, or to Paris. They can do so because there is a very good rail network available. There are different variables that will impact the maximum, but from a safety and security perspective, there is no particular issue with the concentration of traffic out of Dublin.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Looking at the past ten years, seat capacity across all Irish airports has increased by 14.9 million. Of that, 12 million, which, again, is more than 84% of the growth, has been through Dublin Airport.
If that continues over the next ten and 20 years, would the authority have concerns from a safety and security perspective? Is it sustainable?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I will let Dr. Corcoran come in on slot capacity. If it was to continue to 40 million, 50 million or 60 million, the infrastructure that is there today would not be able to cope with that level of growth. If Dublin was to grow to 50 million or 60 million, it would need to develop further gates, a further terminal, etc. It would need additional infrastructure to grow to that level.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On existing infrastructure, if that growth was to continue, the IAA has safety and security concerns.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
We set the capacity so we can control that growth. We cannot grow at any time of the day we want. There just are not slots available. When we set that capacity, we make sure the airport can operate in an efficient, safe and effective way and that there is sufficient capacity at security, for example, or that the runway is controlled in terms of how many movements there can be on it. That is a key element we take account of when setting that capacity.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Has the regulator conducted any impact assessments on the centralisation of air traffic at Dublin Airport?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I mean impact on competition, for example, or on regional air connectivity, consumer choice and balanced regional development. Has there been any impact assessment in that regard?
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
We do not do impact assessments but we do economically regulate Dublin Airport because it has such a large dominant position in the market. Because the airport has that market power, because it has such a big proportion of the traffic, we regulate how much it can charge the airlines for access. Part of that includes the quality of service it provides, capital investment and so on.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There has been passenger growth over the last ten years of about 12 million additional passengers through Dublin Airport. Has there has been no impact assessment of that growth continuing over the next ten and 20 years?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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From a safety and security perspective?
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
No, we do it on a much more tactical level. We set the capacity season by season, so that is six months by six months, and we make sure the capacity fits within the infrastructure. When we are setting our airport charges for a five-year period, we look at what new capital investment needs to occur at the airport and we give allowances for that. It is not in the way the Chair described it but there is more of a tactical operational assessment.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does the authority have any concern about that concentration in a single airport in the context of an adverse event like a weather disruption, a cyberattack or an operational failure? I am reminded of the recent critical incident at Heathrow Airport or the critical failure at Holyhead last December. They underscore the dangers inherent in having all the capacity concentrated at a single airport. Is it not a failure of national aviation policy over the last ten years?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
When we assess an airport from a safety and security perspective, a big part of what I mentioned earlier, the safety management system, is that they have critical response plans. What we are focusing on is how we respond to or manage a critical incident. Exercises are done continuously on how to respond to an incident such as those the Chair described. We do take account of that element. Those exercises are ongoing. We look at things like power resilience, cyberattacks, etc. They are all built into the safety and security assessment of the airport.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On cybersecurity, is the authority confident our systems are robust? To what extent have we invested in our cybersecurity over the last three to five years? Are there planned investments in our cybersecurity?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
We have a number of roles we are about to fully take on board in the IAA. There are some aspects there already. Under the European Union Aviation Safety Agency regulation, which we refer to as Part-IS, information security, there are new requirements. All organisations must have an information security management system that will deal with cybersecurity. Under the network and information systems directive, NIS2, a number of aviation organisations will have to be able to demonstrate their cybersecurity resilience. There are also certain aspects of the critical entities resilience directive that relate to cyber. We look at those with those critical entities in Ireland. We are confident at this stage that all our organisations have good, robust systems. It is in their best interests. They have no desire not to be fully compliant or not to have robust systems. That is the case at the moment.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have more questions but I will come back a second time.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I am a TD for Dublin Fingal West so Dublin Airport is in my constituency. It is fantastic that we have such a facility in our constituency. It provides a lot of employment, but it does have an impact on the local community in relation to traffic, noise and its general environmental impact on the area. I want to get a general understanding about flight paths. AirNav comes into play here too. I want to understand the interaction between the IAA and AirNav. Locals living in St. Margaret's, The Ward, etc., say there are issues with adherence to the flight paths. How do we get to the bottom of that? What role does the IAA have to play? How does it interact with AirNav?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I will take a moment to lay out the whole structure. I had the pleasure of appearing before the committee before to talk specifically about the instrument procedures at Dublin Airport. The aerodrome is responsible for the provision of instrument procedures at its airport. It can, under the regulation, assign that to someone else. In Ireland, at Dublin Airport, it has assigned it to AirNav Ireland. It has an agreement on how that works.
Instrument flight procedures themselves are developed by specialist organisations approved by the European Union Aviation Safety Agency. They will do the design and development to the spec that the airport or aerodrome would supply. Our role is that when those procedures are developed they are submitted to us for approval in terms of safety. We look at them to ensure that they are fully compliant with any international civil aviation organisation, like ICAO rules, or any European Union Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, rules that apply.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The prescribed flight path.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How do we work out if the flights are adhering to those flight paths and what is the authority’s role?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does the IAA get a deviation report?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does the IAA routinely get deviation reports?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does the IAA publish those?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
To be clear we are talking about the same thing, I know there was an expectation that when the new runway opened, flights would go straight ahead. When the procedures were designed, that was not the case. The procedures were designed to have the aircraft turn, initially 60°, I think, and then subsequently they were revised and there was a turn of 30°. To be clear, when they turn 30°, we are satisfied that they are following those procedures.
We also need to remember that, ultimately, it is the air traffic controller’s decision. In specific cases, at specific times, an air traffic controller may ask the airline to turn 40° or 20°.
They have that discretion. The purpose of instrument flight procedures is to provide a standard approach so that other than telling them to fly that flight path, the air traffic controller does not need to give step-by-step instructions. There can be deviations from the flight path. The expectation in north County Dublin originally was that it would be straight ahead. That was not the case. The procedures that were approved were at 30° and to take a different path from what they would originally have expected.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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A lot of my constituents would complain that aeroplanes are banking very quickly once they take off. I was on a flight recently that banked almost immediately after take-off. My constituents would say that this is not what was agreed in terms of the environmental impact. It is difficult to understand whether that is the case and whether they have legitimate concerns that all of the planning and environmental impact assessments that were set down to prevent the impact on the local community are not being adhered to. There are so many different agencies and bodies here that it is difficult to get a straight answer. No offence, but it is difficult to get a straight answer from any of the agencies.
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
The straightest answer I can give is that the procedures that are in place have been approved by us from a safety perspective. They are the procedures that were submitted to us and that is as far as our remit goes in terms of that. If the aerodrome elects to submit a different set of procedures to us, it can do that and we will assess them and make sure they are safety compliant. Once they are, it can operate them.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When were those procedures last submitted to the IAA?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I would have to check when the procedures were last updated at Dublin Airport but I think there was a new set of procedures nine months after the northerly runway came into operation. I will have to check the exact dates. I do not believe there has been any update since then but I can come back to the Deputy and clarify.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate that.
Turning to the issue of disability, I recently travelled through Dublin Airport with my 80-year-old mother. I had booked assistance for her and we had a very successful progression from the terminal to the aeroplane on the way out. However, on the way back, we had a very disappointing experience. We were also travelling with my small children. My mother was to get assistance from the plane back up to the terminal, while we were to take the children, get the bags and meet her at baggage collection, as we had done on the way out, but nobody turned up for her. People turned up for the aeroplane but there were so many people on the aeroplane looking for assistance that there were not enough people to assist her and there was no proper communication as to whether anyone was going to come back for her. She has breathing difficulties and she really needed assistance, particularly since we were very far away. It simply was not good enough. She wrote to the DAA and got a nice letter back from Kenny Jacobs but it does not give me much confidence that it is being properly managed, and she did complain. I would like to come back on this because it is really important. We need to make sure we are allowing people with disabilities to travel through our airports. Does the DAA refer complaints to the IAA? What is the IAA's role in that regard?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. Have there been any Russian military flights, rogue flights or RAF incursions into Irish airspace in the past 12 months?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I would imagine that the IAA would have a bit of information.
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
In our role as the aviation regulator, no. We would previously have had that information in our previous role as the air navigation service provider but AirNav Ireland will be able to give the Deputy a full assessment of what aircraft are in our airspace at the moment. Coming back to what I commented on earlier, our role involves civil aviation. We regulate and oversee the civil aviation system. We do not regulate or oversee any operations by the Irish military or anyone else's military.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are aware of that. We are aware of the IAA's functions, yet sometimes the civil aviation radar gets dotted with rogue flights and flights that do not have a transponder at a given time. Will Mr. Fitzpatrick comment on that?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
That is possible. If a military aircraft transitions through Irish airspace and has a transponder turned on, the secondary surveillance radar will pick it up. If there is no transponder turned on on that military aircraft, primary radar will pick that up predominantly. It may not in all cases. Again, I do not know the capabilities of military entities across the world. If the Deputy wants figures on how many military aircraft passed through Irish airspace, either the Department or AirNav Ireland would be able to help him with that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Fitzpatrick familiar with Project Ireland 2040 and the national planning framework?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Both documents speak very loudly about balanced regional development and not having everything Dublin-based, yet, as other speakers have said, Dublin has a hugely dominant position in terms of all flights that take off and land in Ireland. I think the figure is around 84% or 85% and it has been higher in the past. That leaves the five airports along the western seaboard vying for that space. Unintentionally, the IAA is complicit in some of that by way of granting landing slots. Could Mr. Fitzpatrick talk us through what gauges the IAA uses when an application is made for a landing slot? I am not looking for all the technical stuff. Does the IAA have any cognisance of regional development when it assesses a landing slot application?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I will hand over to Dr. Corcoran in a moment. As we discussed earlier, the regional airports have plenty of capacity so there is no issue there in terms of additional slots at those airports. We do not manage the slots in those airports because they are not constrained. We manage the ones at Dublin Airport because it is a constrained airport. Dr. Corcoran will go into the detail of that regulation.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
Our role here is prescribed in the slot regulations. There are a number of key functions there. The first is that if the capacity of an airport is not sufficient to deal with demand, it becomes slot co-ordinated. In Ireland, that applies only to Dublin Airport. At certain times of the day, there is more demand than there is capacity, which is why we have a role here.
Our role then moves on from that point. Once it is decided that an airport is capacity constrained and needs to be slot co-ordinated, we set the capacity. When we are setting the capacity, we have an obligation to maximise the capacity of the airport. It involves looking at the infrastructure that is there and seeing what the maximum capacity is that can be put through each of those different processors for a particular hour, or a ten-minute period in the case of the runway.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Shannon Airport in my constituency can increase its passenger take fourfold, by up to 10 million, without changing a single thing or adding a single brick to the building. Dublin, on the other hand, has to look at expansion. There is all the stuff with An Coimisiún Pleanála, which is a separate debate. Let us leave that over there. Nevertheless, Dublin is pretty much at capacity and needs to grow if it wants to continue fulfilling those passenger trends. Shannon can increase fourfold, while Cork and Knock have capacity. On that metric, the IAA is coming up way short. In particular, it is coming up way short when it comes to Project Ireland 2040 and the national planning framework because every single State agency we could bring before this committee, such as the ESB and the HSE, must have cognisance of regional development and balancing things out. A total of 13 flights per day take off from Dublin to Amsterdam Schiphol. Shannon has no hub connectivity to Schiphol and all of those outward routes it provides so that is not regional development. As we review these important State documents and review, as a Government, how we better strike that national balance of regional development, could we include the criterion, if it is not explicitly there already, that there would have to be balanced consideration in slot allocation and approving these airlines to land and take off?
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
On the last point, these are European regulations that we are implementing and they have clear objectives. The objective of the slot co-ordination regulation is to deal with airports that are capacity constrained.
The reason airports are not capacity constrained is that there is sufficient capacity to deal with demand and any future demand. The idea of the slot regulation is to make sure that when you have these constraints, you get a fair allocation of the capacity that is there, you maximise the use of the infrastructure there, and it is done in an efficient and effective way so there is not excessive delays or excessive congestion. They are the statutory objectives we have here.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I may interject before my time runs out. I appreciate mothership Europe is always bearing down on the Government with regulation, but we also have our own policies here at home. We have our national aviation policy which we are going to review. We have Project Ireland 2040: National Planning Framework. At the moment, Irish aviation policy is tone deaf to those policies. It does not reflect on it properly. The point is that far too much is going in and out of Dublin without cognisance being given to the other airports. We need to be sweating out these national assets. They are national assets owned by the taxpayer. We need to be sweating those and using them more. When we review our national aviation policy, what policy change will allow us to have criteria that mean when an airline looks for a landing slot, the IAA can weigh it up and respond that the airline already has, say, 13 slots in Dublin, which is enough and they therefore need to move one or two out to the regional airports? What policy change would make that happen?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If we changed the policy the IAA would have to adhere to it. Is that the case?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
Yes, exactly. We adhere to the policy that is set. We take our direction from the Government in that respect but, equally, this specific regulation is a European regulation. Its function is to maximise the availability of slots at an airport which is restricted. That is what we do. That is our function. If some other regulation or national policy was there, we would follow that as well.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I propose that when we go about the national aviation policy - we will have to do quite a body of work on this - our committee should be cognisant of the lack of regional balance in it and we should seek to insert new criteria. We appreciate what the IAA does. It works in frameworks and we have to set the frameworks. Going forward, there should be some criteria whereby when an application goes in to the IAA to run a new service in and out of this country, Ireland Inc. says Dublin has enough and it should be moved out to the regions. A policy insert into the national aviation policy could do that.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I fully support some kind of root sustainability assessment that is built into the process. Of course, everything has to be compliant to the hierarchy of EU legislation.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have listened carefully to the contributions. Ireland is a very connected island with a lot of opportunity. I am from County Mayo where we have Ireland West Airport in Knock, which is a brilliant hub for the north west. Last year 824,000 passengers passed through Knock airport with 22 routes across Europe. It has been incredible to see the growth and development of the airport, which serves the whole region.
My question is linked to the opportunity for regional development and improved growth and connectivity for the region. The north-west region has been identified as the sixth worst region in Europe for transport infrastructure. It would probably be bottom of that table if it was not for Knock airport. The area requires much investment and support from a connectivity point of view in order to link in with the airport from a visitors' experience point of view and a commuters' point of view. Are there any constraints or barriers regarding the potential for the future growth of Ireland West Airport in Knock, or are there constraints which need to be addressed or highlighted?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I do not believe there are any constraints at the moment at Knock airport. It could certainly grow its traffic further, at least in the short term. When it gets to a certain size it would need a bigger terminal and more gates etc. I do not believe there are any particular restrictions from a safety and security perspective.
Mark Duffy (Fine Gael)
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I compliment Joe Gilmore and his team out in Knock airport. They run a good, tight ship. It is great to see the investment from Government in the airport because it is going from strength to strength. I believe they had growth of 6% in the first quarter of this year. It is continually expanding. We need to support regional airports like Knock, Kerry Airport and Shannon Airport. There has been so much talk of Dublin and the barriers to growth there. The regional airports play a key role in taking some of the pressure off Dublin, especially when we are investing in motorways and roads and making the island smaller from a connectivity point of view by reducing travel distances. Regional airports have an increased role to play because of that.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair for allowing me in. I have a few points to make, one of which goes back to what other committee members have said regarding regional airports. We have a very successful airport in Cork, but we have no direct flight from Cork to Dublin or Cork to Belfast. To me that is a huge weakness in connectivity, especially for people travelling here as tourists or for business. We have a number of major international firms and global firms in Cork, but there is no connectivity. I contacted the DAA about putting on flights from Cork to Dublin for next Sunday's match. People will say that is very parochial but we have a serious lack of public transport. The trains were at a maximum. We only have one additional bus at a time when we could transport people to Dublin. The DAA confirmed it had space for charter flights if we could get charter flights to carry the people to Dublin. I contacted a number of airlines to see if they were willing to do it and none of them came back to me. There should be direct flights between Cork and Dublin and Cork and Belfast. When there are significant events, it should be possible to bring in charter flights to carry the people to those events, such as next Sunday. Regarding Cork's connectivity and the provision of a service between Cork and Dublin, do the witnesses have a comment on that?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
That would come back to whether we would have a public service obligation route. The only one we have in Ireland today is between Dublin and Donegal. There previously were such routes from Dublin to Kerry etc. The Government has stopped supporting those routes. If we look across Europe, we see a trend over the years where the shorter routes are dropping off. There are fewer and fewer flights of one hour or less because ground infrastructure - trains and roads etc. - has improved As a trend, across Europe there are fewer routes like the Cork to Belfast and Cork to Dublin routes. Ultimately, if someone wants to put on a flight from Cork to Dublin next week for the all-Ireland final, or any other match, it comes down to a commercial decision by the airline. If they believed they would make money on it, I suspect they would put it on. What the Deputy is experiencing with the airlines is probably related to a lack of aircraft. At this time of year the airlines do not have spare aircraft sitting around waiting for an opportunity. For a lot of the commercial operators it would not be worth their while, to be frank. That is a question for the airlines.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There was talk earlier about regional development and the counterbalance to Dublin, especially now with Cork Airport, Kerry Airport, Shannon Airport, Knock airport and right up to Donegal. I flew out of Dublin last year.
Mother to God, the number of people there. I live 30 minutes from Cork Airport and I have to travel out of Dublin. We have Knock. I flew out of Shannon a few times. The capacity that is available in the regional airports which is not being used needs to be looked at. This is not looking to take from Dublin, because Dublin is saturated. In fact, people in Dublin would be delighted to see flights go to the regional airports. If we are looking at regional development when we are bringing tourists and business in, we must have connectivity. The problem here is that our public transport infrastructure is not up to a standard which allows us to provide connectivity to flights.
In some parts of Europe, including Germany, France and other European countries which have a very good integrated network of public transport, you could see that there would be less of a need for these short flights. You can fly to Manchester or London in an hour, but you cannot get to Dublin or Belfast from Cork or Shannon. To me, supporting the regional airports needs to be considered at a national level and at a government level. That is work that needs to be done.
One other point I have to ask about is the old terminal in Cork that is just lying empty. The new terminal is great but surely we should be trying to open the old terminal and increase the volume of flights into Cork. It is a sin to leave a terminal lying empty for years.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about the regional airports being supported as more of a counterbalance to Dublin?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
It comes back to Deputy Crowe's point about the national aviation policy. We do not decide where airlines fly in Irish airports. We just implement the policy and make sure that when they fly to certain airports, the airlines and the airport are operating safely and securely. Wherever they decide to fly, we will make sure it is safe, but if the Government wants to set a policy of what airports get what traffic, that is a prerogative of the Government, not of the IAA.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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So for Sunday, there is no chance we can get some charter flights to and from Cork to carry a couple of thousand supporters.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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If they come as far as Tipperary, we might have a spare seat and we will bring them the rest of the way.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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You will get the Liam MacCarthy Cup and that will be enough for you.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I presume in return for letting you in, Deputy Gould, two tickets will be left.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will leave them at reception.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I want to go back to the point I made a short while ago, lest it be misconstrued. A few months ago, I floated this idea and within an hour, the DAA had issued a press release to the effect that I was ridiculously suggesting that there be a Shannon stopover. I know that cannot happen. That would be illegal, ludicrous and contrary to EU law. No one is talking about winding back the dial, going back to the 1980s and 1990s, and forcing airlines coming in from the United States to touch down in Shannon and then fly on to Dublin. That is not in question. What is in question is the current imbalance we have. It is 84% Dublin, with everyone else vying for the scraps, including Shannon in my constituency. That is wrong. It is not just about what takes off and lands in the airport but about everything else. A total of 30 million people touch down in Dublin each year, which puts colossal pressure on the road, rail and bus network, from the minute you step out the door of the terminal.
If we are to have proper regional development, it is not just landing slots but everything that the airport involves. It even goes down to tourism. We have seen in the last few years, though I will not name the companies, the day-tripping tourist coaches that come to the west coast of Ireland. The iconic stops like Bunratty Castle are now being advertised as photo stops, so the days of people coming to Ireland and having this quality, west of Ireland vacation, then going to Dublin for a few days, are gone. It is totally reversed. It is capital city-based and unsustainable. They come for the day trip to Dingle, Killarney, County Clare, maybe Connemara and back to Dublin again. We will have to write the policy but we are asking the IAA to be more cognisant of Ireland Inc. and our goals and aspirations being more regionally balanced and developed.
The next line of questioning I want to take relates to radar infrastructure. How much of the transatlantic air travel in the Shannon-Prestwick corridor of flights, known as Shanwick, goes over the Woodcock Hill radar? The IAA referred to some percentage some months ago.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. It is a majority. Something like 60% or 70% is being picked up by the Woodcock Hill radar. For disclosure, I own farmland abutting that facility and am from that community. It concerns me. Woodcock Hill has existed since the 1970s and that radar is all-important, above everything, to air safety, but it is also a lucrative national asset. Many of those aircraft that pass over Irish airspace in the morning are not touching down. They are going on to Frankfurt, Heathrow and wherever else they are going. They have to pay a fee to Ireland through the IAA. I understand it is revenue-generating.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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But they are paying money to Ireland.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is a different rate collector but they are paying. Air safety is number one and it is also generating money. Would Mr. Fitzpatrick agree that it is a strategic national asset?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is that compromised by the many wind turbine applications that are currently being applied for in the east Clare area? Some would stand 180 m tall and it could be argued that rotating blades, with four, five or possibly more rotations per minute, would interfere with the radio wave that goes from the radar, pings off the airplane and gives the air traffic controllers the vertical and horizontal positioning of the plane with nanosecond accuracy. Could it be interfering with that? By extension, could it compromise passenger safety and the national asset that is Woodcock Hill radar station?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
I will give a broad context to how we would assess a risk like a new wind farm, for example. Going back to what I said earlier about effective regulation, the aerodromes and the air navigation service providers such as AirNav Ireland must have a safety management system. A key element of a safety management system is a hazard assessment system and how they go about risk mitigation. When they see, for example, a new infrastructure development in the vicinity of one of their installations or of an airport, they will assess, through the risk assessment, what the impact of that hazard is, how it will impact and what the key mitigating measures are which we can take to reduce the risk from that new infrastructure.
Obviously before the thing is built, one of the most effective mitigating measures is to say that we do not want it built. That will prevent any risk arising from new infrastructure. If the facility was given planning permission, for example, they would have to look at the other mitigating measures. Woodcock Hill is important infrastructure but there is redundancy in the system. For example, AirNav Ireland might determine that there are other ways to ensure the same level of safety. It might be a software update to the system. It could be a whole new radar head, which would be very costly and ineffective. A process has to be gone through to determine what the safety impact would be. That process is happening.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate Mr. Fitzpatrick's answer. I am conscious that we throw a lot at the witnesses at these meetings. What I am going into is very granular. In this case, the Irish Aviation Authority is a vast organisation and we are a big enough country, even though people say it is small. It has on this occasion identified problems and risks. It has objected and appealed in the planning process.
I have to ask in the general sense; I cannot go into specific projects. When passenger safety is at risk and when a national asset, all the revenue it generates and its strategic importance to Ireland Inc. and to all the air traffic that goes over it daily are put at risk, I am sure the IAA will go the whole hog in protecting that national asset, protecting passenger safety and ensuring that high-level radar is functioning at its optimum all the time without being compromised by any rotating blades.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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In conclusion, the IAA has been very good on this position. I know I am throwing a bit of a curveball, but the IAA has been solid and is protecting a national asset from a safety point of view and an air navigation point of view, so I thank the authority thus far for its efforts in prioritising air safety.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will come in before I let in Deputy Boland. I say the following for the benefit of people who may be watching online or may watch the recording of today's hearing. We have talked an awful lot about the concentration at Dublin Airport, but I still want to acknowledge the critical role Dublin Airport plays in economic activity. Every time I travel through Dublin Airport, it is a very positive experience, particularly over recent years, and I spent ten years going over to Brussels and back. There is, however, an overwhelming theme here today from the vast majority of members, namely, a concern about an 84% concentration through one single airport. If I understand correctly, and based on what the witnesses have said in the context of allocating slots at Dublin Airport, the IAA does not have a role as regards Shannon Airport, Cork Airport or the other three regional airports. I refer to the current framework or whatever the hierarchy of policy or legislation is and the extent of the growth, with 15 million additional seats over the past ten years and 12 million of those through Dublin Airport. How sustainable is that going forward from a safety point of view? Does the IAA support the embedding of spatial planning and regional development into the new national aviation policy?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
As the independent, objective regulator, I am agnostic. It is not our decision to support or reject it. We will take whatever policy the Government sets and implement it appropriately for ourselves.
As regards airports and their size, Dublin Airport is big in the Irish perspective, with more than 34 million passengers. In the broader European sense, it is not one of the biggest. I do not think it is even in the top 20 largest airports in Europe, so just-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but as a country. I mentioned Portugal and Belgium-----
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Heathrow is another example. It is such a dominant airport in the UK, yet it represents only 30% of UK seat capacity.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I think I am correct in saying that Germany has embedded spatial planning and regional development into its aviation strategy. I think the Netherlands have done so as well. As regards the IAA's counterparts at the European level, have there been any discussions about this or are the witnesses aware of any countries that have spatial planning and regional development embedded in their strategies?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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To conclude, the IAA has no role in market concentration. Policy does not allow that. If policy does, the IAA will implement it.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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If I may, I wish to come back in on ensuring that passengers with reduced mobility have access to and are able to properly use the airport. The witnesses might give me an indication as to how the IAA is ensuring compliance with those obligations by the various airports, but in particular Dublin Airport, being our busiest airport.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
We have two roles as regards people with disabilities. We have had a role for many years in the physical movement of people through the airport and onto aircraft. Since June of this year, we are also a compliance authority for the accessibility Act. The accessibility Act goes beyond that actual journey and more into the full process as to when someone books-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The end-to-end, yes. I am aware of that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is separate to the DAA's or the airlines' complaints systems.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why do we have three different routes for complaints? Also, I was not aware of that and I travel regularly, so what is the awareness around this facility to complain to the IAA as opposed to the DAA or the airlines?
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
As regards accessibility or passenger rights generally, the first port of call is always with the provider. With accessibility, it is both the airport and the airlines because they both have a role to play there. If someone does not get satisfaction with that, then he or she can come to us. We have pages on our website and there is a complaints form. We have a digital system whereby people can submit their complaints, but-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is "satisfaction"? If someone makes a complaint and the airport and airline say they are sorry, what is the IAA going to do about it?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Do the DAA and the airlines send complaints received on to the IAA?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Do they send the IAA the numbers?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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They were self-referred.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
Exactly. They submitted the complaints to us. The resolution to those complaints varied. About half of them referred to the carrying of mobility equipment and the other half were about the service the passengers got. We will work with the airport or the airline on putting in place remedial measures to address such concerns. Unless there is damage to the equipment, there is no financial assessment. It is a question of how we make this service better going forward.
We also do inspections. We inspect the airports every year for their compliance and do an end-to-end assessment, so-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Like a user test.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Do the airports know the IAA is coming?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is easier to make sure it is working when they know the IAA is coming.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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They make sure they have enough employees working.
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
Yes. We check the facilities such as the disabled bathrooms and all those kinds of thing as regards the journey. We also co-operate with the European Civil Aviation Conference, ECAC. It does assessments throughout Europe. Last year, we did a combined assessment of Dublin Airport, Ryanair and Aer Lingus with the ECAC, that is, with inspectors from Europe.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does the IAA publish the results of those?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On the numbers the airlines and DAA are reporting, is the IAA seeing an increase or decrease? Do they specify the category of complaint?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Would the IAA think of taking a sample or auditing some of the complaints of the DAA or the airlines to make sure they are being resolved to satisfaction? If the IAA is only getting numbers, it really does not know-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The IAA goes through a sample of the complaints.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Has it noticed any particular issues or trends with that?
Dr. Adrian Corcoran:
I know the Deputy mentioned her personal experience, but generally speaking, the service provided is of a good standard. There have been issues in the past that have been resolved. For example, the service in Dublin Airport is outsourced to OCS. Part of our inspection is that we also have standards the airport needs to meet in terms of passenger wait times. We have a financial penalty if it does not meet those wait times.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. How often would the IAA have applied that penalty in the past year?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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For the whole year, it has met every single wait time.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Corcoran. In the few seconds I have left, I want to ask about the ICAO and the EASA audits. Have any particular issues been identified and what is the IAA doing to address those?
Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick:
The IAA is subject to ongoing auditing by the International Civil Aviation Organization under what it refers to as its universal safety oversight audit programme. At EU level, there is the EASA standardisation process, which is laid out in European regulation. I think we had four on-site audits last year by the EASA. It is an intensive process. It will come each time to look at specific areas. The audits focus on our airworthiness, our flight operations, aerodromes, etc. It also has what it refers to as its systemic audit, which looks holistically at the whole organisation and how we do our function.
We score well in the ICAO's universal safety oversight audit programme, USOAP. It is a continuous monitoring assessment process. We have been ranked in the top ten states globally in the past ten to 15 years. I think we are in the top two or three in Europe. We perform really well there. Equally, we would be seen as one of the top three or four states in Europe in terms of the EASA and the standardisation process. We have no outstanding findings. The process is that the EASA comes in and look. If it sees something it feels is not compliant with the regulation, it will raise a finding. The level of the finding will depend on whether it is an issue of a level playing field across Europe or whether there is a safety issue. If there is a severe issue, that is another level of finding. We have very few. There are no open findings at the moment with the EASA or the ICAO.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. If and when they come in again, I think it would a good idea if AirNav came at the same time. It can be difficult to always understand who has the responsibility. I appreciate there was a change a couple of years ago. Both coming in together would be a good idea, Chair.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Cosgrove want to come back in?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I have listed loads, so I do not want to be repeating questions. I will only ask if IAA has any role in connectivity when people get off the aeroplane. Ireland West Airport Knock is in my area and I know there is a huge push to improve the rail services along the western rail corridor. Part of it would have to do with the growth of Knock and that it would be serviced. I do not know if that is the witnesses' area. Have they any say in it at all? One of their current strategies is exercising influence. Could they influence that?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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That is an issue. It is the same with metro north. That would be transforming. Knock airport is a wonderful airport and it serves many counties, but connectivity is an issue. There are not even regular buses to and from Knock airport but there should be. It is not the witnesses' remit. I thank them.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick, chief executive officer. I may not have given his correct title earlier, but I thank Dr. Adrian Corcoran, director of economic regulation, licensing and community affairs. I thank them for their attendance today. I thank the members present and those who were here earlier who intervened. I thank the clerk and support staff for all of their help in the preparation of today's meeting.