John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Before we begin, I will read the note on privilege and housekeeping matters. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction I may make. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirements that to participate in public meetings members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. This is due to the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask any members participating on Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to make contribution. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or in silent mode.

I welcome to the meeting witnesses from Simon Communities of Ireland, Ms Ber Grogan, executive director, and Ms Julia Corey, policy analyst; from Social Justice Ireland, Ms Michelle Murphy, research and policy analyst; and from The Wheel, Ms Lily Power, policy officer, and Mr. John Gallagher, public affairs adviser. At the outset, I want to acknowledge that this committee welcomes the opportunity to engage with the witnesses and to thank them and all who actively contributed to the committee's call for pre-budget submissions. Engagement and consultations are key elements of the process and the committee is aware of the importance of both citizens' engagement and deliberative democracy.

Many of the submissions we received are from those actively involved in supporting the most vulnerable in society. We commend them and look forward to reviewing the contents of their submissions as part of the committee's wider examination in advance of budget 2026. I invite the Simon Communities of Ireland to make their opening remarks.

Ms Ber Grogan:

I thank committee members for the opportunity to meet with them today. My name is Ber Grogan and I am joined by my colleague, Julia Corey. We are delighted to be here today and very grateful for the invitation to attend because we cannot end homelessness by only talking to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

The Simon Communities in Ireland are a network of independent communities across the country that provide homeless, housing and treatment services to people facing the trauma and stress of homelessness. In the Simon Communities of Ireland national office we campaign for practical and sustainable solutions that tackle homelessness head on locally, nationally and at a European level. Our advocacy and solutions are based on evidence, best practice, and the experiences of the people who use our services. As members will know, at the end of May 2025, 15,747 people, including 4,844 children, were living in emergency accommodation. This is the highest number ever recorded and represents an 11.2% increase, or an additional 1,588 people, in the last year. However, these figures are just for those accessing emergency accommodation. Our Under the Radar research report on hidden homeless estimates that an additional 24,000 persons are experiencing inadequate housing, sleeping rough, couch surfing, or living in overcrowded accommodation. The primary driver of the homelessness crisis remains no-fault evictions from the private rental sector, where already unaffordable market rents are only continuing to grow higher and higher. There is an undeniable link between poverty, social exclusion and the experience of homelessness. There are tens of thousands of households in receipt of a housing assistance payment to help with unaffordable rents. The reality is that if people have enough money, they can avoid the traumatic experience of homelessness. We need targeted measures to prevent people from experiencing homelessness and to lift people out of poverty.

Our pre-budget submission to the committee proposes eight targeted, evidence-based measures within the remit of the Department of Social Protection. We have prepared a wider pre-budget submission that is also directed at the Departments of health and housing. We are so grateful to be engaging with the committee today because some of these measures are within the control of the committee's parent Department. We propose increasing rent supplement rates in line with existing tenancy rates. The rent supplement is a vital short-term financial support for renters who are at high risk of consistent poverty. We also propose increasing core social welfare rates by at least €16 per week. These are quite pragmatic requests and we are not being overly ambitious here. The consistent poverty rate now sits at 5.0%, up from 3.6% in 2023 and social protection payments make a difference in this regard. We would like to see permanent supports benchmarked against the minimum essential standard of living, MESL, index. We suggest increasing child support payments by €15 per week for children over 12, and by €6 per week for children under 12. Single parent families make up the largest cohort of families experiencing homelessness and accessing emergency accommodation, despite representing just 17% of family households nationally. We would also like to see investment in permanent cost-of-living measures for lower income workers and cohorts at risk of, or experiencing, poverty. We echo Social Justice Ireland’s concerns around temporary cost-of-living supports and would like to see more permanent measures being introduced. We made a submission to the successor strategy to the Roadmap for Social Inclusion 2020-2025 and are asking for a commitment to ending consistent poverty and social exclusion by 2030 rather than the current 2% target. A lot of people with disabilities can also experience homelessness, so we are joining colleagues in other sectors in calling for a separate cost-of-disability payment. We urge the Government to ensure that every Intreo office has a disability liaison officer on site and to invest in services for those with mental health difficulties and psycho-social disabilities. Representatives from The Wheel will be touching on the sustainability of on-the-ground services provided by the community and voluntary sector. Progress has been made in the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, but issues persist in relation to non-pay related costs, auto-enrolment and so on. Many roles are part-funded by multiple agencies so a more cross-departmental view is needed. I am conscious of time and of the fact that we lost some because of the power cut, so I will finish there. I look forward to our discussions and to answering any questions members have.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Thanks very much. I now invite Ms Murphy from Social Justice Ireland to make her opening remarks.

Ms Michelle Murphy:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to present our budget priorities which should be understood within the broader context of our Budget Choices policy briefing which has been circulated to all Members of the Oireachtas.

Inequality is hugely damaging to both individuals, society and the economy. Last year, after the provision of social welfare payments, there were almost 630,000 people living in poverty, including 180,000 children. Social Justice Ireland is of the view that a social welfare payment must provide an adequate safety net to lift people out of poverty and allow households to provide for a basic but decent standard of living. We warmly welcomed the programme for Government commitment to deliver progressive budgets during the lifetime of the Government. Central to achieving this aim is the benchmarking of social rates to average earnings. The benchmark set almost two decades ago is equivalent to about 27.5% of the average weekly earnings today. This would require an increase of €25 in all weekly social welfare payments. This is crucial to achieving the poverty target reductions in the roadmap for social inclusion and the successor to that roadmap. It is also crucial for closing the income gaps between households on low incomes, that is, those on fixed incomes or in lower-paid employment, and those households on higher incomes that have opened up in the past three to four years as a result of policy decisions. The recent cost-of-living measures, while providing immediate and welcome temporary relief, were one-off and low income households are still in a position now where the real value of their income is not the same as it was last year. Although inflation is falling, prices are still quite high, particularly for food, energy, and rent.

Beyond the benchmarking of core rates, which we believe is essential for delivering the progressiveness that the Government has promised, we are also calling for delivery on the programme for Government commitment to a cost-of-disability allowance payment. We believe a weekly payment is more appropriate than an annual one and suggest €20 per week as the starting point, to be built on in every budget. We also call for increases to child benefit and qualified child support payments, as well as delivery on the commitment to a carer's guarantee by increasing the domiciliary care allowance. We also urge the Government to determine what universal basic services and a universal income floor for carers might look like. I am conscious of time but there are other, more detailed proposals in the document already submitted to the committee.

In terms of rural and community development, we need investment in our regions and our social and economic infrastructure. We welcomed the commitment in the programme for Government to exploring regional economic development zones. That is really important given the different impacts that climate and digitalisation will have on different regions and the labour force across the country. Investment is key, including to mitigate against market failures in the delivery of goods and services in rural areas and to further deliver on the work that has been done on rural-proofing under the rural-proofing pilot. We would be looking for an investment of €100 million to roll out rural proofing, build regional resilience, further develop the remote working hub network, and develop the ETUs, in particular regional living labs, to help the regions come to the fore in the context of the new industries and sectors that are going to emerge in the coming years. In that way, we can keep young people in those communities. We are also calling for additional investment in the rural transport programme, active travel and also in targeting EV grants to rural dwellers. The key to reducing transport emissions is ultimately delivering on large-scale public transport projects and the all-island rail review but in the meantime, we need to ensure that EVs are actually being sold in the areas where people are making the longest journeys. We propose a fund focused on and targeted at rural dwellers with grants of between €3,500 and €10,000, with an additional grant for electric charging infrastructure.

Finally, in terms of community, we are looking for multi-annual funding for the sector to deliver pay increases and to appreciate the work that the sector does in terms of providing services for very vulnerable groups across the country. We would also ask for increased funding for youth work and youth services which provide vital places for young people to learn and grow.

We ask that in this budget the Government addresses the shortfall experienced by many youth services across the country.

Finally, in terms of rural and community development, we would like the budget to look at delivering an action plan to tackle loneliness and isolation which are becoming more prevalent issues. We also go into some detail in our budget briefing about revenue-raising measures and not just expenditure measures. It is important that the Government develops a broad, stable and sustainable tax base to prepare for any drop in the corporate tax take, which is probably coming in the medium term, and to deliver the services and social infrastructure for a growing and ageing population.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Murphy and invite the representative from The Wheel to make her opening statement.

Ms Lily Power:

I thank the committee members for this opportunity to appear before them. The community and voluntary, charity, and social enterprise sector stands as a vital pillar of Irish society, making a profound contribution to our economy and our communities. The sector manages €25 billion in annual income, generating more than half of this through fundraising, thereby significantly contributing to the cost of essential public services and supports.

More than 1 million people volunteer in Ireland every year. The State has long depended on the agility of the community and voluntary sector to respond to crises and fill gaps in public services and infrastructure, particularly in areas like housing, health, social care and disability. Workers and volunteers in the sector provide support to countless people across every county every day.

If we can draw one lesson from recent crises such as Covid-19, the invasion of Ukraine, and more recently Storm Eowyn, it is that the strength of a society lies not only in its ability to avoid crises but also in how it responds to them. In Ireland, that response has always been rooted in the compassion, commitment, and adaptability of community organisations from family resource centres to meals on wheels, to refugee supports, to community centres, to GAA clubs. These crises have shown that we can all be affected and can all need the help of community and voluntary organisations.

Despite the immense value produced, long-term investment from the State seldom matches its reliance on we call the hidden infrastructure of community organisations. In The Wheel’s recent member survey, almost half of respondents were unsure if their organisation would have sufficient funding to provide their existing supports and services for the rest of that year. More than one third said that currently they were unable to sufficiently recruit and retain staff that they need.

The programme for Government makes a clear commitment to "ensuring our communities thrive and making our villages, towns and cities safer; to supporting a caring society; and to continue the focus on addressing poverty and social exclusion". There has been progress in some of these areas but there is still a long way to go if we want to create these thriving communities. We believe the first budget of the new Government presents a critical opportunity for change.

Consistent poverty rates increased to 5% in 2024. There were 95,000 people awaiting inpatient treatment at the beginning of the year and some 4,500 children accessing homeless services. As well as these significant national challenges, we are also living in an uncertain global context. I do not need to tell the committee that increasing inequality and climate breakdown will combine to create a particularly challenging context for policymaking and economic decision-making in 2026. Community and voluntary organisations occupy a unique position in communities from which to address these challenges. They are already doing it. They are already on the ground.

In our longer pre-budget submission, we provide detailed analysis and recommendations for supporting the sector as a whole and our more than 2,500 member organisations. Issues include sustainability of the sector, pay parity, the need for multi-annual funding as well as broader societal issues.

In recent months, disparity in pay and conditions for organisations delivering public services on behalf of the State has received a lot of public attention. We strongly welcome the recent progress on this issue through the Workplace Relations Commission and the agreement of a 9.25% increase for up to 40,000 workers equivalent to the most recent public sector pay agreement.

It is vital this increase is effectively rolled out to the relevant organisations, and that a clear, efficient mechanism is put in place for these organisations to issue payments. We also need meaningful engagement to continue on which organisations are included within the scope of the deal. Ms Grogan mentioned that many of our members have multiple funding sources and at the moment a kind of a two-tier system is being created within organisations that receive funding for different staff from different Departments.

There are also many non-pay-related issues which are having an impact on these organisations' ability to deliver the services and supports they are being funded to provide. These include pension auto-enrolment, rising costs around insurance premiums and energy, the cost of living as well as the housing crisis and the ongoing impact of inflation.

To really provide public services and supports that reflect need and best practice, we believe the State should provide funding on a full-cost-recovery basis, considering the need for these organisations to fund core costs, pay staff adequately, train and develop staff, make provision for pension contributions where appropriate and deal with rising costs. Applying these changes across Government Departments and agencies would also help avoid complexity and the two-tier system that it being created.

The Wheel has long advocated for the introduction of multi-annual funding as the default approach for community and voluntary organisations. It is mentioned in the programme for Government in relation to health provision. It would facilitate longer-term planning, better staff recruitment and retention rates, and improved outcomes for service users.

If we are to realise the commitments set out in the programme for Government to ensure our communities thrive and we have safer villages, towns and cities and to really address poverty and social exclusion, then decisive action is required to support the community and voluntary sector which is doing this work. Our communities are resilient but that resilience depends on a hidden infrastructure. It must be strengthened through investment, vision and meaningful partnership working with the sector.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Power and all of our contributors. I thank them for sticking to the time as we are limited on time. We have a number of groups coming in afterwards. I open the meeting up to the floor.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our witnesses for the information they have given us. I have a couple issues that I want to touch on. I want to talk about child poverty. I wish that I did not have to as I am sure the witnesses wish they did not have to discuss it continually either. In terms of those at risk or living below the poverty line, according to the Social Justice Ireland briefing, some 630,000 people are living below the poverty line, of which 190,000 are children. As we know, some 5,000 of those children are homeless. We are talking about the poorest of the poor.

This question is directly to Simon Communities of Ireland. I refer to the causes of homelessness in general. On the value of the tenant in situ scheme and the manner in which it has been cut, I have correspondence from Fingal County Council informing me that 60 tenant in situ purchases were paused at the beginning of the year and they have now been told that they will not continue. Sixty families were told they were in the tenant in situ process and believed they were not at risk of homelessness. They have now lost valuable time looking for accommodation that does not exist. Can I get Ms Grogan's view on the tenant in situ scheme and on other supports to prevent homelessness? I am not aware of any other homelessness prevention measures in place. I think it is the only one. What impact will the funding being withheld have on homeless children specifically?

Ms Ber Grogan:

It is something we raised with the Minister for housing and the Taoiseach earlier this year. Even around rent pressure zones and rent regulation, we are seeing the private rental sector being a driver for people experiencing homelessness. It has been an issue around the country. The Simon Communities, which are doing incredible work, have told me that families not having access to the tenant in situ scheme is an issue. We have been trying to do some advocacy work and lobbying in the background as well. I think what has happened is that maybe there was a blanket decision with some unintended consequences. We are calling on the Minister for housing's Department to revisit that and to listen to what the various charities and local authorities are saying. I completely understand that we need supply and that the tenant in situ scheme is taking supply out of housing but what we would say is that we need to build social and affordable housing on public land. However, this is having an impact on children experiencing homelessness.

Regarding the point on the prevention piece, Galway Simon Community has approximately a 90% success rate with its prevention project. There are other prevention pieces happening around the country but with a much smaller percentage of the overall budget going to it. Sitting here listening to everyone, it is like we have a shopping list or wish list for all the things we are asking for. It might seem like we are asking for a lot. However, prevention and early intervention is not only the morally right thing to do - we all know and agree on that - but it is also the economically beneficial thing to do.

If the Government puts enough into reducing the numbers of poverty and bringing people out of poverty in this first budget, it will have a longer term beneficial impact. We are looking for a much greater prevention investment. There is ongoing work on a homelessness prevention framework, which we would like to see fully costed, resourced and committed to.

The Deputy mentioned child poverty and well-being. There is that unit in the Department of the Taoiseach, which is doing really great work but I do not know if it has budget lines to progress things. This is the kind of area where we are great at policy and coming up with ideas but there needs to be resourcing with timeframes on them.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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The implementation of policy is obvious when we see the rising numbers of homelessness and the Minister saying he was incapable of preventing it going above 5,000. That is very regrettable.

With regard to children and child poverty, specific one-off measures were given in previous budgets. Obviously, a signal has been given to the Government that the cost-of-living crisis is over. Could the witnesses briefly discuss the impact of those one-off measures and specifically the impact of their withdrawal? We saw students protesting last night on the proposed hike in fees. They have a view of the impact on their families and it is one I happen to share. What is the impact of those one-off measures on children specifically and, more importantly, the impact of their withdrawal?

Ms Michelle Murphy:

We welcomed the measures because they provided temporary relief but we did point out at the time they did not address income adequacy. We cannot address child poverty without looking at the adults in the household. Children are dependants so we have to look at household income. Temporary additional payments support the recipient in that short period but social welfare rates are neither benchmarked to inflation or average earnings. The previous iteration of this committee published a report recommending that they be benchmarked to earnings and that social welfare rates and earnings be indexed over time. That is how we get to a point where temporary measures are not used to deal with a cost-of-living crisis. We have not benchmarked it and that is why we are in the situation we are in now with rising child poverty, rising numbers in consistent poverty and not being able to reach modest enough poverty targets.

We would not look for one-off measures again. We need to look at the households most impacted. Research has been done by us, the CSO, the ESRI and the Central Bank to look at where in the income distribution those households are and whether they are on fixed incomes or in employment. It is generally people who are earning and paying tax at the standard rate and under, that is, those households who earn €40,000 or less, because they do not get any benefits from the permanent tax cuts that have been made which are going up the income distribution. There is a redistribution of resources going to households that do not need it.

We need to look at child benefit and the qualified child payment. We welcomed statements about looking at the second-tier child benefit payment but we have had two budgets where two taoisigh referenced them as being child poverty budgets but we did not see the resources. That is why we are looking for an increase in child benefit. The Government needs to look at those households and target the money there. The gap has already opened up as a result of the disparity between temporary and permanent measures.

Going to the Deputy's point on students and children in school, we are looking for an expansion of the hot school meals programme to DEIS secondary schools and increasing the maintenance grant because that would reach those households which are struggling, as well as other measures. The Government needs to target permanent, ongoing measures to those households and put income adequacy at the core. If we are reaching a point where we will feel some sort of economic headwinds as a result of tariffs and changing distribution of where corporation tax will be booked, the one thing we should have learned from the last crisis is that those at the bottom, who are reliant on public services and are really vulnerable, should not be asked to pay like they were before.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I thank the Chair and all our guests this morning. I thank them for all the work they do for so many people. It is very much appreciated.

I have a couple of questions. Ms Grogan and the Simon Community representatives mentioned rent supplement and an increase to this. I hear on the ground that people are using the rent supplement as a top-up on HAP payments. I am not sure if their organisation has come across this but community welfare officers are informing people they should be looking down this route. This shows the problems people are having with rent supplement and renting in this emergency we have at present. Again, when asking for an increase in rent supplements, the witnesses might come back to us and let us know what type of figure they are looking for.

Several contributors talked about the cost of disability, which is something this committee is looking at. I think it was Ms Murphy from Social Justice Ireland who said €20 would be a good starting point for a weekly payment. Where did that €20 figure come from or is it, as she said, just a starting point? She might come back to us on that and let us know where she came up with the €20 sum. According to many figures I met during the term of the previous committee, the cost of disability was huge, so I am interested where that €20 figure came from.

The multi-annual funding is something everyone has mentioned and it comes up regularly. The witnesses might comment on how that affects their organisations and their planning and staffing. It is something I come across on a regular basis with community groups. They do not know what is happening from year to year. I might get a comment from all the witnesses on the importance of multi-annual funding and how it affects community groups throughout the State.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Perfect. Ms Grogan and Ms Murphy may want to come back on that. We might go to the multi-annual funding question then.

Ms Ber Grogan:

The rent supplement and HAP, the housing assistance payment, are not in line with market rents. The rents keep growing consistently and because they are currently at such an unaffordable place, even with HAP people are paying top-ups themselves and going hungry. We also saw the Barnardos report yesterday as well. I have not actually heard of what the Deputy described. However, you can imagine being a community welfare officer and this is what you are trying to come up with.

We welcomed the changes around the security of tenure the Minister for housing was bringing in but we are still very concerned about affordability. If landlords will be able to reset market rents every time there is a rent review, we do not see an end to that. It is not ideal but to bring some sort of stability would mean having the market rent levels available to people who need the assistance.

Our "Locked out of the Market" report will come out next week. Ms Corey works on that. It is a quarterly report that shows how many properties are available and the affordability. It has got worse since the quarter 1 report. There are fewer and fewer affordable properties available.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Ms Murphy might address the €20 question. Ms Corey wanted to come in there.

Ms Julia Corey:

I just wanted to come in around the specific numbers. For example, the maximum rent cap for the rent supplement in Dublin for a single person is €660. I do not know anyone who is living in a one-bedroom or studio apartment for that price. We are asking for this to be adjusted to the RTB's existing rent averages. It has figures on the average price for new rentals but obviously, for those in existing accommodation, it is a slightly lower rate. We would ask for this to align with the RTB's averages.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Corey for that. My apologies, Ms Murphy.

Ms Michelle Murphy:

Regarding the cost of disability, obviously it is substantially more than €20. What we are trying to do here and have been trying to do for several years is to get that commitment within the system. That is the key. We costed it at just €20 arising from an Indecon report that is now three years old, which needs to be substantially updated. It is to get that commitment delivered within the system as a weekly payment, not an annual payment, and then we can build from there. We are concerned there were commitments in the previous programme for Government that were not delivered. We would really urge the Government to deliver on this commitment in this budget as a weekly payment.

We are very concerned that what was considered a cost-of-disability allowance - the one-off measure - was €200, which was completely inappropriate. At the very minimum, it needs to start at €20 per week and build from there.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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What about multi-annual funding?

Ms Lily Power:

Multi-annual funding would make a huge difference to many organisations of varying sizes. There have been examples of it happening. It has been trialled in certain areas of Tusla and the Department of justice, and it is making things so much easier for those organisations to plan staffing and their own work. There are rules about the reserves that organisations can hold. It can be really difficult to have any forward planning, especially when running these really important services and schemes on early intervention and it can be impossible to plan for the future or even the end of the year in some cases. It also adds to the compliance burden of the organisation. Many organisations are working with limited staff resources on those things specifically. They are being funded just for the services and supports they provide, that is the core costs. It is something we think is very achievable and something the Government has recognised as valuable in its own work. The programme for Government refers to it in relation to Sláintecare and health planning. We believe that is something very achievable that would make a huge difference to many organisations.

Mr. John Gallagher:

On a very practical level the Department of public expenditure's rules guarantee 80% funding for Departments in the following year, so there is effectively multi-annual funding right throughout the public service. That does not apply outside. It causes practical problems in, say, the legality of the contracts that are offered to staff, so it gives rise to recruitment and retention issues in a big way. Obviously, it affects morale, and there are issues for someone looking for a mortgage when they only have a temporary contract. At EU level, there is an increasing level of requirement for multi-annual contracts. It is not something that could not be looked at. It might be useful for the committee, in the context of the Department of rural and community development side of its brief, to look at how the overall sector might be brought into that camp of having, say, three-year contracts or some sort of certainty.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for being here this morning. I will focus on some different areas. Ms Murphy referred to school meals and the expansion of the programme in this regard and its value. Is there need for a review of school meals and the DEIS model?

Ms Michelle Murphy:

School meals are a really good example of a very successful universal programme. They have been rolled out to all primary schools. We would like to see them rolled out to DEIS secondary schools. There is potentially a need for review of the funding that goes to each provider in terms of what they get for each meal, particularly if we look at food price inflation, for example, in the past 12 months. From what I see, the Department's review was very positive. We saw the value of rolling the programme out to all primary schools. Now we need to start with the DEIS second level schools and then move to all second level schools.

The programme has huge social benefits. It provides major support to families, and there are also nutritional benefits. There have been questions around the nutritional value of menus, depending on providers involved, but those are things that can be worked on. We often criticise policy, but there are also examples of good policy being implemented. Those are the kinds of things we should be supporting and expanding. It is an important programme and we should look at expanding it to DEIS second level schools to begin with and then extending it to all second level schools.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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There definitely needs to be a review in respect of the nutritional value of the food on offer. The Department of Health should be part of that; it should not just be the Department of Education.

My next point relates to the community and voluntary sector. I know a bit about this in the context of health and social care. My question relates to the sustainability of the sector. Some parts of the sector will not prove to be very sustainable unless reform takes place. I refer specifically to the disability sector. There are about 2,500 disability providers throughout the country. They are all doing payroll, ordering oil from different providers and purchasing their energy from different entities. What are the witnesses' thoughts on that reform and on tying it in with the sustainability of the sector?

Ms Ber Grogan:

It links to the governance piece. The Charities Regulator also comes under the Department. There is definitely room for shared services, such as in respect of payroll. The way service level agreements, contracts, legal responsibilities and so on are set up, there is so much governance and compliance that needs to be done. The demand for services can be overwhelming at times too, so funding for, say, a core governance and administration group, is not available. The Wheel and others provide training. The Carmichael Centre does really great training around governance, financial transparency and so on. We all want to be, and are working as hard as possible to be, fully compliant with everything, but you cannot go out and fundraise and say to the public that we need to complete this compliance.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I ask because I am thinking about pay parity and about section 39, 56 and 10 organisations being able to access funding. We saw how not all of them could access the Covid payment. That is the aspect of reform I am asking about. How are the organisations represented here able to assist with the reform and transition such that they will be able to access the funding?

Mr. John Gallagher:

I work with a broad coalition of all the service delivery organisations that have been dealing with the WRC and with many of the questions the Senator raised. The under-resourcing of the sector traditionally is the biggest issue with its sustainability on an ongoing basis. Wage levels were, on average, 20% below those offered by the HSE, Tusla and other entities. General resourcing of other costs was not taken into account. That is the prime difficulty with sustainability. That said, there is a need for continual reviews of how the sector operates. The question of there being too many organisations is one that has to be up for discussion. I have been around long enough to know that over the years there were various reviews of, say, credit unions. Going back many years, trade unions were brought together in mergers. If we are going to talk about that, there should be a Government-supported initiative to allow due diligence, the merging of organisations, board reconstitution, etc. This will not happen unless that is supported.

The programme for Government refers to getting out of silos and to cross-departmental initiatives. We have a real opportunity to do something in that regard. A big difficulty for the sector is that most organisations receive funding from different sources. Some get funding from all four areas covered in the WRC. They have different requirements and forms to fill out, as well as different deadlines to meet. This places a huge burden on them. Some initiative could be taken there.

As part of the agreement, we will be setting up a data collection process that, over a period of, say, up to a year, will be used to gather information on the type of question the Senator is asking. Hopefully, at the end of that period, recommendations will be brought to the Government on how we make progress in the future.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Murphy addressed the issue of loneliness,which is one of the biggest issues in both urban and rural areas right across the country. Later, there will be statements in the Seanad on post offices, the valuable work they do and why they need to be supported. Have the witnesses looked at the Scottish model or at the research on the role of the postman, the delivery of post and the knock on the door? I am thinking of Storm Éowyn and the need to deliver meals on wheels to our vulnerable adults.

People could not make contact with the HSE after the storm because the telephone lines were down, so it was back to the idea of meitheal as to how to actually support them within their communities. Have the witnesses looked at some of the really good models of providing support within communities that exist in other areas or jurisdictions? The Minister, Deputy Calleary, and the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, were before the committee last week. They referred to the fact that €440 million is being spent on community development projects on an annual basis. However, projects are only as good as the support we provide to people in communities in the context of seeking to address their vulnerability or isolation. Senator Goldsboro was involved in the community cafés that were represented here last week. Are there good examples we can look to in the context of providing a honey pot of supports to people right across the country?

Ms Michelle Murphy:

As stated in our submission, we are looking for an action plan to address precisely what the Deputy has outlined. We have the report of the loneliness task force, for example. There are really good examples in Scotland and elsewhere. Look at the resources we already have available. The Deputy mentioned post offices. That is something we really need to examine when we think about the digitalisation of services. We need to consider those who are vulnerable and the isolation they experience. What is the impact of isolation going to be on those people? There might be a cost saving in one respect, but there certainly will not be a cost saving in another. The object is to strengthen capacity of communities and ask what human interactions those vulnerable people have on a daily basis - sometimes they do not happen on a daily basis - and how we can improve the position in that regard. It comes down to how we can use what we have and the services provided by the community and voluntary sector to strengthen and support what is there and to build capacity.

As the Deputy mentioned, one thing about recent climate issues and storms we have dealt with is the importance of communities. It was people's neighbours who were there to help out when there was suddenly no mobile phone coverage, no electricity and everything else. There are many learnings to be had from that. It does require resourcing, however, and it does require learning from what worked elsewhere. We do not have to start from scratch. We can look at what has worked in similar communities elsewhere - the Deputy mentioned more rural communities in Scotland - and how we can replicate that here and use the networks, etc., we already have.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Murphy very much. Simon Communities of Ireland made a request in its submission to the Department. Does it have any costings in that regard? In particular, it referred to the fact that there should be a €16 increase in core rates for all social welfare payments. Likewise, Ms Murphy mentioned a €25 core increase in rates. Are there any costings for that? What are the overall costings for everything mentioned in the submission?

Ms Ber Grogan:

It has been difficult to try to find exact costings for everything. Within what we are talking about, it is a small team working on the pre-budget submission, so that is why we have put amounts on it rather than made overall costings. We are still finalising our overall main pre-budget submission, so some of them have overall costings for the measures and some do not. We just do not have the capacity or knowledge in that regard. We do not want to be annoying all the members and asking them to submit parliamentary questions all the time in order to get the information. The Parliamentary Budget Office or some other entity might have the resources. I know some things are available, but something like that would help inform our pre-budget submissions.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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We did have officials from the Parliamentary Budget Office at our previous meeting. We might be availing of their expertise in order to go through what is involved.

Ms Michelle Murphy:

Excluding the pension costs, it would cost approximately €900 million to do the €25 per week increase. If we include the pension on top of that, it would be an extra €600 million or thereabouts. As a result, we are looking at a total cost of approximately €1.5 billion. The important thing to remember when we are looking at the welfare budget is that our population is growing older as well, so the pension costs are the ones that are going to be driving that. Therefore, we do have a proposal in there. The Parliamentary Budget Office's recent report on the Social Insurance Fund makes for worrying reading. We also have a proposal around bolstering that now and looking at employers' PRSI in order that when we get to the point where the old-age dependency rate will have changed and where there will be fewer people in employment than there will be of older age, we will not have a big hole in that fund as well. It is about planning for that now.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Ms Murphy is saying that in order to facilitate a €25 increase for just the core payments will cost €1.6 billion overall.

Ms Michelle Murphy:

Yes, the weekly payments. It would cost €1.5 billion.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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That is not withstanding the other requests that are there, which-----

Ms Michelle Murphy:

Yes. I suppose we would have a substantial tax package on the other side as well. It is a question of resourcing and being clear about where the money is coming from.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I ask Deputy Aird to be very brief because we have to finish up.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have a question about the housing situation. I was a member of a local authority for many years. It introduced a scheme whereby if a person was renting a house and it was put up for sale, the council would buy it and leave him or her in the house. I thought it was an excellent scheme. I agree with the witnesses; it is a pity that it has not been continued. The fact was that they felt that it was going to be abused from the point of view that people went in, but that is neither here nor there. They could set a time of four, five, six years or whatever and state that a person was there at the time. I say this especially from the point of view of catering for children who are homeless. The witnesses referred to the very bottom rung of the ladder in the context of homelessness, particularly when it comes to children. Can they provide an example of the types of accommodation those children are going into? What is available for them at the very lowest level? I forget the exact number, but I think Ms Grogan said it is a couple of per cent.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Ms Grogan might comment on that briefly. We will finish up at that point.

Ms Ber Grogan:

There has been a huge increase in spending on private emergency accommodation, which mainly accommodates families with children in households because there are not enough typical hostels and places like that. Getting a place in a family hub or supported temporary accommodation can take a little longer. Yesterday, someone who was at risk of sleeping on the streets with their two-year-old contacted the office for advice and support. I was told there probably was nowhere for them to go and they would just have to keep ringing different helplines. Many people end up sleeping on floors and on couches in people's family homes or with friends, even if it is just to try to get a couple of weeks until they can maybe get into private emergency accommodation or whatever. That is completely unsuitable. It is so traumatic for the parents and children involved. In a rich country such as Ireland, we should not have children experiencing homelessness or experiencing the stress of where they are going to sleep at night.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Gallagher wish to briefly comment?

Mr. John Gallagher:

The Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht supports an initiative called We Act, which highlights the positive work the various community groups around the country are doing. It is done on an annual basis. In an era when people draw less from conventional media and often more from their own bubbles for information, it is very important that this initiative continue. Indeed, it might be something that could be considered as a pilot for a three-year arrangement.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, we could not get all the speakers in, but I thank them very much. I thank the witnesses from Simon Communities of Ireland, The Wheel and Social Justice Ireland for their contributions and for providing the various briefing materials in advance of our committee meeting. We will suspend briefly to allow the witnesses to leave and to bring in the other group.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I will a read the note on privilege and housekeeping matters before we begin. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction I may make. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask any members participating online via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to contribute to the meeting. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

From ALONE, I welcome Seán Moynihan, CEO, and Ms Gráinne Loughran, senior policy and advocacy officer. From Family Carers Ireland, I welcome Catherine Cox, head of communications and policy, and Sinead Tighe, a family carer and advocate. From the Irish Foster Care Association, I welcome Corrinne Hasson, chief executive officer, and Andrew Murphy, advocacy co-ordinator. The committee welcomes the opportunity to engage with the witnesses and thanks them for attending this morning.

We thank all of those who respond to the committee's call for pre-budget submissions. Engagement and consultation are key elements of the process and the committee is aware of the importance of both citizen engagement and deliberative democracy. Many of the submissions we have received come from those actively involved in supporting those who are most vulnerable in society. We commend those people and look forward to reviewing the content of their submissions as part of a wider examination in advance of budget 2026.

Mr. Seán Moynihan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak today. In 2024, ALONE supported nearly 44,000 older people to age at home. This number is set to grow and, within the next five years, over 1 million people in Ireland will be over 65. Many of these live very close to the poverty line. CSO and SILC data shows that, without the cost of-living supports provided by Government in last year’s budget, 45.6% of those aged 65 or older would have been at risk of poverty, making them one of the most financially exposed groups in the country. With once-off supports set to be withdrawn in budget 2026, targeted supports are now essential to prevent the risk of poverty from skyrocketing among this group.

The older people ALONE supports, many of whom live alone, have limited incomes or face complex health and housing challenges, are at even greater risk. Many are financially dependent on the State pension which, as it stands, often falls short. Social Justice Ireland places the poverty line at €323.99 per week for a one-person household, yet the current maximum weekly rate for the State pension is €289.30 for those under 80. As the cost of living continues to rise, the current approach to pensions and benefits will leave too many older people falling behind. This strain is especially visible in rural areas like Belmullet in County Mayo and Glenties in County Donegal, where around one in four households are totally dependent on the State pension as their main source of income. With the removal of once-off supports and prices still persistently high, older people on low or fixed incomes are being squeezed harder than ever. We now need targeted action to prevent sharp rises in poverty, isolation and preventable hardship.

Our pre-budget submission sets out five targeted, evidence-based and costed proposals to ensure that social protection supports meet the needs of these at-risk older people. They are grounded in robust data from our cost-of-living survey and in the lived experiences of the older people we work with every day. First, we are asking the Government to increase the State pension by at least €22. For many, the pension is simply not enough to meet basic needs. As one of the older people we support told us:

[I am] extremely stressed and ashamed to be receiving financial gifts from my daughter ... [I] can’t do anything or go anywhere from my own pocket after a lifetime of having worked and earned my way in life.

Second, we are asking for an increase the fuel allowance. Without this, arrears will grow and more older people will be left choosing between heating and other essentials. ALONE hears time and again from those we support that their health means they feel the cold terribly but that they cannot afford to have the heating on so they simply go to bed to keep warm.

Our third proposal is on the living alone allowance. Older people living alone have the lowest median household income in this country. The allowance rate, which has not been increased since 2022, is not benchmarked against anything. We call for an increase of at least €10 in this allowance and for research to establish a fair benchmark that enables those living alone to reach the same standard of living as their counterparts living with a partner or family member.

We also ask for an increase of at least €10 per week in the telephone support allowance and for it to be expanded to cover Internet costs. This allowance remains at €2.50 per week, unchanged since 2018.

Finally, we ask Government to simplify the application processes for social protection entitlements. Right now, too many older people miss out on supports they are entitled to, not because they do not qualify but because the system is too complex and difficult to navigate, especially for those with lower literacy or limited digital access. For those living alone, barriers are even higher. ESRI research shows that just 6% of those eligible for the living alone allowance are actually using it. We are calling for a streamlined application process, with the State pension application amended to automatically include relevant entitlements like household benefits and free travel.

With the removal of once-off benefits in budget 2026, it is the older people who are already at risk who will be hardest hit. The five targeted interventions we have outlined here today are essential to protect this group and to prevent the consequences of inaction from falling on those least able to bear them. We would welcome the committee's support in making sure no older person is left behind in budget 2026.

Ms Catherine Cox:

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the opportunity to present our pre-budget submission for 2026, Ensuring No One Has to Care Alone. I am head of communications and policy with Family Carers Ireland. I am joined today by family carer Sinead Tighe, who will speak from her own personal experience on some of our key asks.

Across Ireland, over 500,000 people provide unpaid care to children and adults with additional needs or physical or intellectual disabilities, frail older people, those with palliative care needs or those living with chronic illnesses, mental health challenges or addiction. Caring for a loved one can be really rewarding but it can also be really frightening and isolating. It should not be but it is. Despite being described as the backbone of Ireland’s health and social care system, family carers continue to shoulder the consequences of underinvestment in home care supports, outdated policies, eligibility criteria that no longer reflect the realities of modern-day caring, and assumptions that families will do this freely. Specific challenges include financial hardship caused by the outdated carer’s allowance means test, which we will talk about, exhaustion from inadequate respite care, and lengthy delays in accessing essential assessments and support services. Key commitments made by this Government, notably fully funding the carer guarantee, remain undelivered despite several repeated promises.

Our pre-budget submission 2026 outlines eight critical reforms urgently needed to support family carers and prevent a deepening crisis.

These are: abolition of the carer’s allowance means test, fair and adequate income for family carers, a right to respite, the full funding of the carer guarantee; delivery of the statutory home support scheme which has been promised for many years, prioritisation of supports for children with additional needs, delivery of housing, transport and climate justice for family carers, and support of family carers juggling paid work with care in the home. We will speak primarily to the first two of those, as they fall under social protection. We will also refer to some other Departments' supports for carers as these are crucial and fall within the remit of TDs and Senators when they vote on the overall budget.

On abolition of the carer's allowance means test, the programme for Government commits to significantly increasing the income disregard for carer’s allowance in each budget with a view to phasing out the means test over the lifetime of the Government. Family Carers Ireland acknowledges the significant increases in the income disregard in recent years, 2022 and 2024, under the former Minister, Heather Humphreys, and 2025. We acknowledge the profound positive impact this has had on thousands of family carers who will, for the first time ever, receive either a carer's allowance payment or a full carer's allowance payment. Despite these improvements, the means test remains one of the most contentious issues among family carers. We are calling for a transformative shift away from the outdated means test towards a new, inclusive and equitable payment for family carers that recognises and values the work they do. Eligibility criteria for the scheme could remain the same but we should remove the means test and increase the number of hours somebody can work outside the home. Our ask for budget 2026 is for the income disregards to be raised again to €750 for a single person and €1,500 for a couple. We want to see the plan for abolishing the means test by 2027, including setting up an adequate family carer payment or participation income for family carers. The Parliamentary Budget Office estimates abolishing the means test would cost approximately €375 million per year. Those figures are very close to our own figures.

Second is a fair and adequate income for family carers. The carer's allowance is currently €260 per week for somebody under 66. Even before the onset of the cost-of-living crisis, research by the Vincentian Partnership found that households caring for a child with a profound disability faced significant financial strain, with additional weekly costs averaging €244. Since then, rising inflation and soaring living expenses have created an even bleaker reality for family carers. Many struggle to afford necessities such as food, heating and utility bills. In a desperate attempt to cope, carers are increasingly turning to unsustainable measures: falling into debt, cutting back on essentials and even neglecting their own medical needs. This situation is both unacceptable and unsustainable. It is placing vulnerable families at heightened risk.

Our State of Caring 2024 research shows that of more than 2,000 surveyed, 69% struggled to make ends meet, 29% had cut back on food and heat and 23% had missed a mortgage or rent payment in the last year. The research also highlights that caring households with higher earnings have a significantly reduced disposable income, leaving them ill-equipped to manage essential contingencies such as car or home repairs, medical expenses or unforeseen bills. These families often rely on a single income due to the demands of full-time caregiving, yet they are excluded from most carer supports based on income thresholds. As a result, they shoulder the same substantial costs of care without adequate recognition or financial support from the State. Therefore, we ask that the carer's allowance and carer's benefit to be increased to €325 per week at an estimated cost of €285 million.

There are two other budget asks under social protection I would like to highlight. The Government might consider increasing the annual carer's support grant from €2,000 to €2,150. There are about 133,000 people in receipt of that payment. Carers who get to 66 or pension age get the half-rate carer's allowance. It was brought in with the good intention of giving carers an additional payment on reaching pension age, but if somebody gets to that age, they should get their full pension and the full carer's allowance payment. I will hand over to Ms Tighe.

Ms Sinead Tighe:

While financial aid is essential in supporting family carers, access to vital services such as respite, including emergency respite, is critical. Respite is crucial to family carers as it helps prevent burnout and protects physical and mental health and well-being. It is not a luxury; it is a necessity. Despite this, 72% of carers surveyed in the State of Caring 2024 report have never received respite.

I am a mother, carer and advocate for my beautiful son, Daniel, who is now 18 years of age. he has a rare genetic condition, Sotos syndrome, which causes overgrowth, severe intellectual disability and epilepsy. Dan is non-verbal, incontinent, visually impaired with behaviours that challenge, has low mobility and feeding difficulties and requires 24-7 care, which is very difficult. I have to facilitate everything for Daniel from washing, dressing and shaving to anything you can think of that a man has to do for himself.

In the summer of 2024, I had been caring for 17 years and became so ill that my GP thought I was having a stroke. I could not hold my head up and my arms were aching. I was a very active woman but all of a sudden my body and my mental health had failed me. I was later diagnosed with physical and mental burnout and was told I had to learn to care for myself. It has taken two years to bring myself back to the person I once was. I had to go to psychotherapy. I had to go to regular GP appointments to have my bloods tested. I had to go to a gynaecologist to check the time of life I was in, because I was ignoring that. As carers, we do not look after our health. I had to go to psychotherapy to learn to deal with all the grief and everything I had kept inside my body for years. He reckoned the stress of dealing with that grief and the fight I have had for my son had burned me out completely. I learned a lot in that journey about how to care and how to look after myself to sustain the life of caring.

One of the most important things in that is respite. Respite care is crucial to me as it gives me a break from caring. It allows me to focus on my physical, mental and emotional well-being. I can spend time with my immediate family, meet friends and, more importantly, concentrate on self-care, which is impossible for me to do when caring for Dan. It also gives me peace of mind that Dan is being looked after by professionals who can tend to his every need just like I can. All full-time carers should have a right to appropriate, free and regular respite based on their needs and the needs of their loved one. Without this, it puts carers at a much higher risk of burnout and other medical problems.

We need a respite strategy that includes an audit of respite provision and needs across the country, together with funding to respond to those needs. We need to know that if we have an emergency in our lives we have someone to call on to provide emergency backup and that is why the emergency respite provided by Family Carers Ireland is so important. I hope I never need it but I need to know it is there for me if I do, especially now as I am getting older and health issues may come in time. It also needs to be fully funded and guaranteed.

Ms Catherine Cox:

Aligned with respite is the need for supports and services on the ground in the community where and when a carer needs them. Government has committed to fully funding the carer guarantee, which aims to ensure that every family carer can access supports and services when and where they need them in their communities. Despite this commitment, we have only received half of the funding to do that. I call for all members' support in asking the Government to provide the outstanding €3.3 million to allow Family Carers Ireland to fully implement the carer guarantee.

Ms Corrinne Hasson:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the opportunity to speak with them. I am CEO of the Irish Foster Care Association. With me is my colleague, Andrew Murphy, our advocacy co-ordinator, and in the Gallery we have two foster carers, who will be more than happy to answer any questions members have after today's session.

At the end of April 2025, there were 5,781 children in the care of the State. These children are in care for many reasons - neglect, abuse, poverty to name a few - but never through their own fault. Children in care of the State are in almost every town, village and community across Ireland. They are in every school and GAA club and they are in your community too.

A total of 87% of the children in the care of the State are in safe and secure foster homes, with incredible foster carers who go above and beyond every single day. Foster carers care for vulnerable children who may have trauma, behavioural concerns, disabilities, foetal alcohol spectrum disorder and many other complexities. Foster carers do not get to switch off at 5 p.m. on a weekday, or at the weekend. Foster carers spend a large amount of time taking their foster children to medical appointments, therapy and access visits. There are multiple appointments or meetings, often every single week. They buy all food, clothes, shoes, bedding, toys, laptops and school supplies. They pay for all extracurricular activities, school trips and everything else any other child needs to thrive. Many committee members know the costs of their own household, and it is no different for a foster family. However, there are often extra costs incurred for caring for a child in foster care. We all want these children to reach their full potential in life, and it is for this reason that four out of our five asks in our 2026 pre-budget submission are for financial supports for the children in care and the foster carers themselves.

Tusla defines the fostering allowance as being provided "in order to allow foster carers meet all of the child’s daily living needs". In a recent survey of our members, we received 303 responses and 78% of foster carers said they had to use their own income, over and above the foster care allowance, to cover essential expenses for the foster children in their care. When asked what these were, a large number reported dental work, glasses or opticians' appointments, transport, and therapeutic interventions. Foster carers are given an allowance of €400 per week if the child is under 12, or €425 per week if the child is aged 12 and over, to cover all costs incurred with caring for the foster child in their home. This is simply not enough. With a wait of almost 15 years between the previous increase and that received last year, we ask the Government to index link the foster care allowance now in order to ensure foster carers receive financial support that reflects the growing financial demands of caring for a child and allows them to continue providing the best care to their foster children.

We also ask the Government to urgently address the need for foster carers to have their contribution and service to the State recognised and to implement a pension scheme for foster carers that ensures time spent caring will not come with a financial disadvantage in later life. Many foster carers find themselves retiring, only to be told they are not eligible for a contributory pension because they have not worked. Imagine having had 20, 30 or even 40 children in the care of the State live in one's home for a period of time and then being told one has not contributed to one's country.

Recently, the Government announced that foster carers were to be included in the back to school clothing and footwear allowance. While this was a positive acknowledgement of the costs incurred by foster carers, it quickly fell short of expectations when it was announced that foster carers were to be means tested for this annual payment. Foster carers already take on enormous responsibility and open their homes to provide safe, stable and nurturing environments. Requiring them to undergo a means test in order to access basic back to school supports is inappropriate and unfair. It also fails to recognise the unique status and needs of children in the care of the State. We at the Irish Foster Care Association ask the Government to remove the means testing conditions that have been placed on foster carers when applying for the back to school allowance and to ensure that all children in State care can access this basic allowance.

When a young person remains in education after the age of 18, an aftercare allowance of €300 is paid and the foster care allowance of €425 is ceased. That is a drop of €125 per week to meet the needs of the young person and is wholly inadequate in the context of his or her needs, particularly given current third level education costs. When a young person does not remain in education after the age of 18 and remains in the foster care home, no aftercare allowance or foster care allowance is paid. The needs of a young person at 17 years and 364 days do not disappear overnight. The supports that young person requires remain just as critical. We are asking for the aftercare allowance to be aligned to the foster care allowance rate so that a young person can continue to be supported appropriately after the age of 18, regardless of being in education. We want the aftercare allowance to be paid until a young person turns 23 at a minimum.

We know that the number of foster carers is declining. In quarter 1 of 2020, we had 4,192 approved foster carers in Ireland. In the same period in 2025, there were only 3,817. With 5,781 children in the care of the State, and rising, the figures do not bode well for the future. As our vision in the Irish Foster Care Association states, fostering needs to be recognised, valued and supported. Please support us in fostering a better future in budget 2026. I thank the committee.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Hasson and all of our speakers this morning. We have had very good presentations from ALONE, Family Carers Ireland and the Irish Foster Care Association. A number of members have indicated and I will go first to those who did not speak previously. I call Deputy Guirke.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all of the organisations that have come before the committee today for the tremendous work they do for the most vulnerable people in society and the people who need it the most.

To return to the cost-of-living crisis, we saw graphs earlier on how it affected the less well-off in society. It has very little effect on the wealthy when the Government provides one-off measures in budgets. This year, the Government is speaking about not having a cost-of-living package in the budget. What are the feelings of the witnesses on this and how detrimental will it be to people on the breadline and who need it the most?

With regard to the carer's allowance, we all felt the means test would be scrapped but it looks like that is on the long finger. We all know that carers save the State a fortune by keeping loved ones at home instead of in State care. They are doing an unbelievable job. It is very important that carers get a break through respite and are able to look after their own mental health. I know from dealing with people that they are at their wits' end. They never get a break; it is 24-seven. People applying for the carer's allowance must say that they provide care for 39 hours per week. We all know that most carers do so for 24 hours a day. If they do not put "39 hours" down on the form, they do not qualify for the full carer's allowance. Many people have been refused because they put down "five hours a day", just to put something on the form. We know they are providing care for 24 hours a day. It is very important that people get a break through respite and it is an area where I will definitely be fighting their corner.

With regard to the back to school allowance for children, how many children would be affected if the means test were removed? How many people would be in this position, including young people in State care? I thank the witnesses for all they do.

Mr. Seán Moynihan:

To go back to the point on targeted measures, everybody is grateful that, at a time of high inflation, we had the ability as a country to step in. The reality is that prices have not gone down for those most at risk.

The big pushback from the NGO sector last year was on our inability to target. All of our inputs and those of other colleagues here are meant to try to protect people because, while the targeted measures may be removed, many prices will continue to rise.

Sometimes, we lump all older people in together but they are not a homogenous group. People aged from 60 to 90 are not the same and everybody does not live the same life. The people who use our services are generally over-65s. They use primary and acute health services two to three times more than the average group of older people. A total of 37% of the people who use our services tell us they are struggling to pay utility bills. People may not realise that, without the one-off measures, a large number of older people on their own are at the highest risk of poverty of any age group in a community. Sometimes, we think that people are retired and it is all fine because somebody will say he or she knows somebody down the road who is older and runs 5 km races. That is great, and plenty of older people are in that group, but social protection is about putting a floor under those most in need.

The roadmap for social inclusion, the national pension strategy and many others, including most Government and non-Government parties, have spoken at some stage about benchmarking the pension. We believe many officials are in favour of it but somehow we never quite get there. Every year, we have to work out how much of an increase there might be. In good times, older people might do well, but at other times, they may go several years without an increase, as do other marginalised groups.

We would like the Government once and for all to actually benchmark the pension at 34% of the average industrial wage. It would still be up around the poverty line but it would allow people to know and to have safety and security, which is what we all look for when we age.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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We might hear a comment on the foster carers and the back to school-----

Ms Corrinne Hasson:

In February 2025, there were 5,059 children between the ages of four and 18 eligible for the back to school allowance. According to the Department of Social Protection figures, it said 2,300 children would be eligible. Therefore, we are talking about approximately 2,700 children who will not get it. One of the biggest frustrations for us is that foster carers should not be means tested for a payment for a child in the care of the State. There is a worry that if we start means testing foster carers now, it may open the door for further means testing in future. The cost for those 5,059 children would be just over €1 million, which is not a huge amount of money to give a one-off payment for school supports.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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A number of members want to speak and I hope to get around to everyone. Since there are only 20 or 25 minutes left, I ask members to be brief in their questions, with perhaps four minutes for asking a question and getting a response from the witnesses. I would like to try to get to everyone before we have to finish at 12 o'clock.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I agree with Deputy Guirke that they do great work I also thank Ms Tighe for giving her testimony. It is sad that people in her situation have to fight so hard for everything that they get. Carers generally do not have the energy or time to put in that fight.

One of the issues I have is that women - it is primarily women - are being judged based on their partners' income. The assumption being made is that their partners are sharing their income. This leaves women exposed to financial abuse. The means test for carers allowance is currently denying some people financial independence. Have the witnesses come across this phenomenon? What percentage of carers are women? That question is for Family Carers Ireland.

I have a question for the Irish Foster Care Association. What is the cost of residential care compared with the cost of foster care within a home environment? What are the pension implications for a foster parent who cannot work due to the obligations of fostering? Has the Government given any commitment to resolve the anomaly with the pension? I fully agree with the witnesses on the back to school allowance. The cost outlined of €1 million is very low. The back to school allowance should be attached to the child and it should be easy for foster parents to avail of it.

Is the number of people who are fostering children reducing?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I ask the witnesses from Family Carers Ireland to respond within one minute or so.

Ms Catherine Cox:

The latest census showed that 62% of carers were women and 38% were men. However, of carers in receipt of social welfare, 77% were women. Therefore, a higher percentage of women are probably giving up work to care full time. We absolutely come across situations where a woman might be dependent on her partner's income and may not have access to that income. For us, abolishing the means test is crucial because it recognises and values the work that that woman or man does and ensures someone is not dependent on another person for an income.

For carers, one-off payments in budgets are great, but we really need to see guaranteed income year on year, which is why if we abolish the means test, carers know they will get that payment. There is also guaranteed funding for emergency respite and supports that they need.

Ms Corrinne Hasson:

Residential care is considerably more expensive than foster care. It costs over €1,000 a week. For a child in foster care-----

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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Sorry, I did not hear that. How much?

Ms Corrinne Hasson:

It is considerably more expensive at over €1,000 a week but foster carers obviously get the €425. We can come back with exact figures on residential care.

We have not received a commitment on pensions. However, the programme for Government contains a commitment to look at pensions. The Irish Foster Care Association would like a pension scheme that supported the period of time for which a foster carer was caring. Regardless of the age of the child, disability or duration of the placement, the pension should apply to the time for which somebody has been providing foster care.

I ask the Senator to repeat her last question.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I mentioned the back to school allowance, which should be attached to the child based on the costings Ms Hasson provided. Is the number of people offering foster care reducing?

Ms Corrinne Hasson:

Yes, we are seeing a reduction. That is a concern for us because we know if they are not going to foster care, they are going to residential care, which is not the best place for a child and is more costly to the State. There is a decline in foster carer as well as a decline in the number of children being taken into their houses. We are trying to make sure there is enough financial support for foster carers as well as other therapeutic supports they will need to be able to manage the children they have in their homes.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for the interruption and I am not sure if those comments have been recorded. We do not know if they were broadcast or not. I apologise for the inconvenience. It has been like this all morning, with lights off and lights on. I think the committee heard Ms Hasson's response. I thank Senator O'Reilly for asking those questions and getting the answers in the dark.

Mark Wall (Kildare South, Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in today. I want to be associated with the previous comments on all the great work they do.

My first questions are for ALONE. Was I right in hearing Mr. Moynihan say that there had only been an uptake of 6% on the living alone allowance? I agree wholeheartedly on the telephone allowance. A weekly amount of €2.50 is just not enough in the modern age for people, especially when they are paying for connections to panic alarms, etc. An increase in that is long overdue.

I thank Ms Tighe for her testimony. It is great to hear her experience of the personal care she gives to Dan. Ms Cox might come in on this. How many hours are family carers providing in emergency respite care? It is a huge thing and I know many people have used their services, reaching out to them to come in where the State should be on respite care, which is so important for mental health and self-care as well. I ask for details of what family carers are doing.

I am shocked to hear Ms Hasson say that the back to school allowance would only cost €1 million. This was painted as something that was great and is very welcome for the 2,300 people who are eligible. If it is only going to cost €1 million, then this committee needs to get fully behind that. Given the job that foster care families do throughout the State, it is absolutely unbelievable. I am shocked by that. I thought it was going to cost a lot more than €1 million. The Government needs to look at that in the forthcoming budget.

On pensions, this is something that comes up with me regularly. The witnesses have said that families may be fostering for 20, 30 or 40 years, but when they reach the age of 66, there is no pension for them. Unfortunately, it is almost always females who are dependent on their husbands' income and they then become this terrible term called a dependent adult. It is totally wrong and I agree that it should change. I welcome that it is in the programme for Government. The witnesses have my support in any way I can.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I might just call Deputy O'Reilly and then we can go back for comments because we are running short of time.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Tighe in particular because I understand exactly how tough it is to make the arrangements to come in here. We really appreciate her time and the information she has given us. As I have often said, just because someone is caring out of love, it does not mean that people should take advantage of it.

What happens to carers at 66?

I thank the foster carers for their evidence. In terms of the declining impact, is it possible to put a monetary value on what the payout will be? It is a small amount to pay to foster carers in order to be able to keep them because, as we know, the vast majority pay out of their own pocket. If the State does not subsidise foster carers correctly and appropriately, people will not be able to continue to do it.

What is the estimated cost? Can the witnesses give us an approximate cost?

In regard to ALONE, energy poverty is absolutely huge. It is unfortunately not just a winter thing. Many older people come to my office or advice clinics and say that in the evening they do not turn the heating on and they go to bed early. That is no way to live. Is there any value in paying the fuel allowance - maybe we should rename it, although I am sure people do not care - for the whole year in recognition of the changing reality for older people?

Ms Catherine Cox:

I will answer the Deputy’s question on emergency respite. Last year, Family Carers Ireland received €600,000 to provide emergency respite throughout the country. We could not broadcast that we had that money because the demand was already there. If we had said we had it, we would have been flooded and would not have been able to meet demand. This year, we are looking for €2 million. That would allow us to support families in emergency, as Ms Tighe said. No family wants to be in that situation, but if a family carer, for example, needs to go to hospital with a medical condition, they have peace of mind knowing Family Carers Ireland can step in, look after their loved one and put in place a support system for them. For €2 million per year, which is a very small amount in the overall scheme of things, we could alleviate that huge stress on families.

On what happens at 66 years of age, if a carer is getting carers allowance and they reach 66 years of age, thanks to the previous Minister, Heather Humphreys, there is a pension for carers providing full-time care for 20 years or more. The carer goes on to the State pension contributory if they have those years. However, their carers allowance is halved. They get the half rate carers allowance.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Yet the carer does not do half of the caring.

Ms Catherine Cox:

They do more. As they get older, they are most often caring for an adult or a spouse. The care intensifies and gets to be more as the years go on. It is a really important issue for thousands of carers. I think the half rate was brought in by Séamus Brennan in 2007. It was very welcome in that carers were recognised, but it is now outdated. We need to support carers and value what they do. If we get a participation income for carers, it will take away that problem because they will be entitled to their pension and a payment in their own right for the work they do.

Ms Corrinne Hasson:

Unfortunately, we do not have a financial figure on the impact but we know foster carers are leaving foster caring because of finances. They do not like to talk about it because it makes people feel that is why they are in fostering when it is absolutely not. Our concern is that if the financial increases are not put in, we are going to lose more foster carers. Those children will end up in residential care and that becomes more costly to the State and it is obviously not the right place for children. We would welcome research on that. We can see about getting funding for research on that impact. That would give us a better figure. The concern for us is that it is more costly to the State but there is also an impact on the child who is not where they should be.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I ask the representative of ALONE to respond to Deputies Wall and O'Reilly.

Ms Gráinne Loughran:

I thank Deputy Wall for his question. The ESRI published research this year on low-income households. It found that a lack of awareness of supports available was a key driver behind households not using the supports they are eligible for. It highlighted that only 6% of those potentially eligible use the living alone allowance. For older people, that is obviously a vital support. It recommended that simplifying the welfare system, such as by introducing a single point of application, could significantly improve access to supports, and that is something we have called for in the past.

On energy poverty, and building on Deputy Guirke’s question, the fuel allowance has never been fully reinstated after the 2012 cut that reduced the season from 32 weeks to 26 weeks. At the moment, it is paid for 28 weeks. What we have seen over the past number of years has been one-off cost-of-living payments. Last year, for example, fuel allowance recipients received €250 in the form of energy credits and a €300 one-off payment. What we are hearing is that this year none of that will come through. To match the level of support provided last year would require an increase to the fuel allowance of €20 per week. We would welcome the fuel allowance season being extended, in particular for it to be reinstated to that 2012 level where it was paid for 32 weeks.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I ask contributors to speak for one minute.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I will be very brief and I am not going to ask any questions. The witnesses are pushing an open door coming here and asking this committee to take on board the contributions they have made and what it is they are seeking. It almost feels like Storm Éowyn is operating outside again. I hope it is not because when we are in a bunker like this, we do not know what is going on outside.

I am interested in the fact that for Family Carers Ireland, €3.3 million has still not been paid. That is something we really need to be focused on. I missed the contribution from ALONE.

Whatever else happens, we should not complicate people's lives and the lives of the organisations. They are doing extraordinary work and the last thing they want is for things to be complicated by bureaucracy, red tape and a whole host of obstacles.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have a comment and a question. Regarding the importance of carers, we have a responsibility to assist in ensuring that carers are retained and recruited and that children are in a safe environment. In respect of the comparison between the medical cards for children and the back to school allowance, medical cards are, as I understand it, universal but the back to school allowance is not as it is means tested. Perhaps Ms Loughran might indicate what it would cost to make the back to school allowance universal and comparable to medical cards.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I will not be finished in a minute but I will do my best. Those in ALONE are meeting people on a day-to-day basis. The questions on the impact of poverty on people's day-to-day lives as well as the cost of energy have been answered. I am specifically interested in situations where somebody loses their partner and has to run the house on the one pension. He or she does not get the extra in the fuel allowance. I brought this up before.

The other piece is on foster carers. I did the sums and if we lost all the foster carers and had to use private residential care, it would cost €1.3 billion whereas foster carers only costs us €109 million. That is a statistic. When we look at it like that, of course, they should be included in the pension and we should not be means testing. Whoever decided on that, it needs to be reviewed completely. I loved the comments on extending aftercare to 23 years of age.

We had family carers in Loughrea who did phenomenal work. They were the group we went to when we could not get care from the HSE. If the allocation was extended to €2 million in the morning, does the organisation have the capacity to attract the staff? That is my question.

Imelda Goldsboro (Fianna Fail)
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Does ALONE know the status of the commitment to implement benchmarking of the State pension as committed to in the Roadmap for Social Inclusion 2020-2025? I thank Ms Tighe for coming here today and speaking from the heart. It had an impact on all of us. I wish her the best of health in the future. It is good to see she is recovering. It is not an easy situation; it is quite difficult. Am I correct that with respect to foster carers, Ms Hasson said the means test would that approximately €1 million?

Ms Corrinne Hasson:

Yes.

Imelda Goldsboro (Fianna Fail)
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How does ALONE think the drop in home ownership will impact the sustainability of the State pension in future years?

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank everybody for coming here today. I have used this analogy all of my political life.

Sinead is not alone. There are thousands of Sineads and Johns out there providing full-time care. I always say it is like pushing water up a hill. I still have to use that analogy, which I have been using for nearly 40 years now. I hope I am still a public representative on the day I am able to say, whether here or elsewhere, that I do not need to use it any more. Regrettably, the position has not changed, including in my county. As I always say, you will never receive good news without banging on a drum to get what you are entitled to. I guarantee you will never get a letter without having to look for it. That does not happen in this country, which is a pity.

I will say just a quick word on fostering because I know a few of the families involved. The witnesses are right. Foster care is about the love of children, kids and teenagers who get into trouble. Certain homes are very good at it and certain people are excellent at it. It is not a monetary thing. I have never seen a case where it was a monetary thing. It is about the love of children and giving back to someone who needs support and love from a parent. When I meet the people I know who provide foster care I say, "I see you have an extra one with you today", and I always say thank you. I came across a person who did this all their life and when it came to getting a pension they were told there was a problem and they were not entitled to the contributory old age pension because of that. I thought it was sad and I hope we can address it.

I agree with the previous speaker on the cost of fostering. In my town of Portlaoise the health board has houses for some of the people we are talking about. I often see three, four or five cars outside belonging to people who are working in these houses all day, so I do not need to be told what it is costing. Foster carers do a fabulous job. We should be rolling out the red carpet for them.

Noel O'Donovan (Fine Gael)
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I thank all the groups, specifically Family Carers Ireland and Sinead, for coming in. This has stopped us in our tracks and in the work we do. We see the importance of supporting them more. One particular line struck me, namely, that an audit of respite services is needed. We need to find out what the solution is to improving respite services and where the best model in the world is because we need to improve respite services.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank members and all the contributors and witnesses. I am sure they will be around afterwards, but we must finish for reasons of time. I apologise for the inconvenience caused by the lights going off. I thank Alone, Family Carers Ireland, the Irish Foster Care Association and, in particular, Sinead. She is probably not used to coming in to committees like this. We wish Daniel and Dan well. I also thank the foster carers in the Gallery for coming in and being part of this meeting. It was great to see so much interaction.