Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Good morning. Thank you for being here. Today's meeting will be in two separate public sessions. The first session is to conclude at 10.45 a.m. Apologies have been received from Deputies Pa Daly, Grace Boland and Michael Collins. Senator Mark Duffy has allocated his speaking slot to Deputy Emer Currie. Deputy Pa Daly has allocated his speaking slot to Deputy Paul Donnelly. Deputy Grace Boland has allocated her speaking slot to Deputy Maeve O'Connell. A number of Deputies have indicated that they wish to speak in the spare slots towards the end of each session.

The purpose of today's meeting is for the joint committee to discuss unmanned aircraft systems. Witnesses' opening statements will be made in the following order: the Irish Aviation Authority, Dublin City Council and, not least, Maynooth University. Today is all about engagement and considering an issue that is both timely and rapidly evolving, which is the growing presence of drones in Irish society. As Chair, I begin by acknowledging both the potential but also the real concerns that this technology brings. On the one hand, drones offer clear and innovative opportunities. On the other hand, with that innovation comes genuine, understandable public concern around safety, privacy, noise pollution and the broader regulatory environment. People ask who is monitoring this, where drones can fly, what happens if something goes wrong and, crucially, how we balance the benefits of this technology with the rights and expectations of members of the public. There is also a wider national interest to ensure that Ireland is ahead of the curve in building a framework that encourages innovation, but not at the expense of public trust or safety.

Today's hearing brings together a diverse group of voices from regulators to local authorities, academic researchers and industry leaders. That is exactly what we need. Our goal is not just to listen but to understand what is working, what gaps may exist, and what steps need to be taken to ensure responsible and transparent drone integration in our society. With that, I look forward to an open and constructive discussion and I genuinely thank our witnesses for their time and presence here today.

On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, Mr. Enda Walsh, manager of the unmanned aircraft systems, UAS, division in the organisation, and Mr. Jim Gavin, chief operations officer. I call Mr. Gavin to make his opening statement.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I thank the committee for inviting the IAA to this meeting and to contribute. The IAA regulates the aviation sector in Ireland. I joined the IAA in 2011 as a flight operations inspector in the airlines standards division, with my last aircraft type rating on the Airbus A830 family of aircraft. Since then, I have held various senior management and regulatory roles across flight operations, airworthiness, air traffic services, airspace management, aviation security and unmanned aircraft systems. I hold an airline transport pilot's licence and have over 30 years of experience in the aviation industry. I am a former commissioned officer and military pilot, with over 20 years of service in Óglaigh na hÉireann - the Irish Defence Forces - at home and overseas. As the Cathaoirleach mentioned, I am joined by Enda Walsh, manager of the unmanned aircraft systems division within the IAA. He has worked in aviation for 14 years, with a background in UAS, airspace and aeronautical information management, instrument flight procedure design, air traffic control and software engineering. Mr. Walsh joined the IAA in 2017 and represents it on the UAS technical advisory body of the European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, and the broader global regulator co-ordination body, the Joint Authorities on Rulemaking for UAS, JARUS. He is a former commissioned officer, with 13 years of service in Óglaigh na hÉireann - the Irish Defence Forces - where he served in both the Air Corps and the infantry, again at home and overseas.

The IAA is the single regulator for civil aviation in the State. The IAA’s remit includes economic regulation, consumer protection, as well as the regulation and enforcement of civil aviation, security and safety, which includes regulating unmanned aircraft systems, or drones as they are more commonly referred to. Ireland has led the way in the regulation of this sector, being the first state in Europe, and one of the first worldwide, to introduce drone regulations in 2015. The national regulation was superseded by European regulation in 2019, and the European Aviation Safety Agency keeps pace by advancing the European regulatory framework, which governs this technology. The IAA is proactive and a respected contributor in the related European working groups and task forces, bringing our experience and safety focus to these rule-making processes.

The role of the IAA is to ensure drone operations are conducted safely in compliance with the EU regulations. European aviation regulation details the rules by which drones may operate within the European Union. This regulation applies uniformly throughout the EU and the IAA, as the competent authority, ensures it is applied effectively within the State. The oversight and regulation of drone operations is risk-based. This means that the more complex the drone operations, the more requirements and safety mitigations required to ensure their safe operation and the safety of the public.

Drone operations are broadly classified into three categories based on risk: open, specific and certified. The low-risk open category, for example, includes the smaller, off-the-shelf drones used for recreation, photography or smaller survey operations, whereas drone delivery operations fall into the medium-risk specific category, which requires an explicit authorisation from the IAA. Higher risk certified operations are not yet in effect, but are expected in due course. They will include air taxis, international cargo and high-altitude operations.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I am going to have to ask Mr. Gavin to conclude. I think all the witnesses were told there would be three-minute opening statements.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. As stated earlier, the IAA conducts oversight of all civil drone operations in the State using this risk-based approach. In addition, the regulation requires the IAA to classify and analyse all drone-related occurrence reports, whether mandatory or voluntary, and any safety trends, and share this relevant information with European regulatory bodies, regulated entities and the public.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Gavin.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

If I may conclude, a Chathaoirligh, drone operations continue to grow and innovate across Europe and in Ireland. Today, more than 8,000 drone operators and 23,000 remote pilots are registered with the IAA. Drone operations, such as building inspections and surveys, photography and deliveries are routine and commonplace daily activities across the State but represent only the beginning of the advancement and innovation possible with this technology. The IAA understands the commercial appetite for future growth, as was mentioned, innovation and opportunity with the expanding use of drones for societal, recreational and business purposes. However, first and foremost, the IAA is the aviation safety regulator - independent, effective and competent - and it does not compromise on the regulatory safety standards to be applied.

We will continue to conduct safety oversight of all drone operations in Ireland, as we have done for the last ten years. We will continue to promote drone safety with the public and take enforcement action when required. We will also continue to contribute proactively to constructive rulemaking nationally and internationally and work closely with both the Government and local authorities to support and shape the continuing safe evolution of this technology. I am happy to take questions.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Gavin. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I ask members partaking via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

From Dublin City Council, I welcome Mr. Paul Rutherford, principal environmental health officer, air quality monitoring and noise control unit; Mr. Thomas Curran, manager, land surveying and mapping division and corporate drone unit; and Ms Edel Kelly, senior transportation officer, transportation planning section. I invite Mr. Curran to give his opening statement on behalf of Dublin City Council for three minutes

Mr. Thomas Curran:

I thank the committee very much for the invitation to appear here and share the experiences of Dublin City Council's with the UAS drones ecosystem in urban areas. The Cathaoirleach has introduced me and my colleagues.

Dublin City Council has been using drones to aid the provision of our services for the last eight years or so. The primary users of drones within Dublin City Council are the survey and mapping division, Dublin Fire Brigade and the Civil Defence. The main uses of drones within Dublin City Council are the production of topographical surveying, mapping, production of 3D models, emergency response, dangerous building-roof inspections, flood defence monitoring, search and rescue and video and photography for our media office. The use of drones has resulted in significant improvements in staff safety, especially in and around dangerous buildings, a reduction in time on site and, importantly as well, the improvements in our cost efficiencies.

Dublin City Council produced a Drone and Urban Air Mobility 2024–2029 strategy that highlights the potential of the emerging drone sector for Ireland and recognises Dublin City Council’s role in supporting the wider ecosystem and building capacity for innovative services within the public sector.

The strategy states that scaling these services will depend on public trust, awareness and early engagement to address concerns around safety, privacy, noise, and environmental impact, ensuring long-term acceptance and benefit for communities. One of the key components of the strategy was the creation of a dedicated corporate drone unit based within the survey and mapping division, which supports services mentioned previously - training requirements, management of drone equipment, regulatory knowledge and overseeing any relevant procurement processes.

Dublin City Council has been collaborating and exchanging knowledge with other European cities through being a member of the Urban-Air-Mobility Initiative Cities Community, UIC2, and the POLIS Network, which are key European platforms supporting cities in the safe and sustainable integration of drones and urban air mobility. UIC2, under the EU Smart Cities Marketplace, helps local authorities align drone initiatives with public needs and EU policies, while POLIS promotes knowledge exchange and policy development to ensure drone use supports wider urban air mobility and sustainability goals. We are also members of the recently created Irish public service drone network, a group set up to share knowledge and experience among local authorities and other public service organisations.

As with many new and emerging technologies, Dublin City Council will continue to explore and examine how these can enhance service delivery and benefits to citizens in accordance with the corporate plan and the Dublin city development plan. We are in the process of arranging further engagement and consultation around drones in the city and plan to host a series of community engagements to discuss issues outlined in the near future.

Dublin City Council, through its smart city and survey and mapping units, established a drone innovation partnership with Maynooth University and the IAA in October 2024, which is co-funded through Research Ireland. The objective of the partnership will be to shape the future of drones and urban air mobility as well as playing a key role in providing the basis for regulated integration of innovative technologies such as drones into the daily lives of the citizens of Dublin and Ireland. The main workstreams of the project are a digital platform, stakeholder engagement, demonstrators and the governance framework.

There has been a lot of media coverage over the past while. Dublin City Council recognises that the commercial use of drones, such as for deliveries, is a complex and evolving situation as the technology itself is moving so fast. There is no published policy, legislation or guidance at a national level for local authorities and this creates significant challenges. For clarity, no commercial drone delivery companies are operating over the Dublin City Council area. Dublin City Council is aware that there are drone delivery companies operating in the greater Dublin region. Dublin City Council's planning and transport planning teams confirm that no planning applications in relation to drones have been lodged with Dublin City Council to date. I have included in my submission links to the strategy, information on the drone innovation partnership project and short videos.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Curran. I welcome Professor Tim McCarthy from the Department of Computer Science at Maynooth University and invite him to make his opening statement.

Professor Tim McCarthy:

I have over 12 years' experience of drone research. We are funded primarily by Research Ireland, formerly Science Foundation Ireland, and are involved in applications and traffic management systems. Normally, Ireland ends up following other people in terms of technology and how we do things. This is probably one of the first examples of where technology has come in together with this innovation piece and conspired to present this challenge to us, so we should seize this as an opportunity instead of viewing it as a negative. Having said that, there are real issues here with which we must contend.

Regarding the drone ecosystem, what we are looking at is the wider issue involving not just technology but applications, innovation, dealing with societal acceptance, fairness and trust. The biggest one is uncertainty. With this technology and innovation coming into a close space with humans, uncertainty is hanging around. When we mix high-volume movement of drones with people, there will be issues with that. Drones out in the countryside do not really cause problems. It is only when there is a high volume of drones in cities, although I know there are other aspects we are looking at here.

There is a multiagency aspect here too. It does not just involve the Department of Transport and the IAA but also involves local authorities, data protection, environmental matters and An Garda Síochána so we must bear that in mind. When we talk about large-volume drone movements in urban areas, we are looking at traffic management systems. Some of these systems are still under development. Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2021/664 of 22 April 2021 underpins what is called U-space, which is the airspace system for drones, and that is still under development. It is worth saying that when we move into the stakeholder and wider issues, that is critical. We certainly have to do more. We have parallels and analogues to look at in Australia, Canada and the US. Canada has established a drone advisory committee, which is something we could look at. It brings in this multiagency piece, deals with these issues and has policies and task groups. Australia has a drone information website that deals with all those pieces involving raising awareness, educating people about the benefits of drones and, equally, trying to handle people's concerns. The website has a page saying "have your say".

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will set the scene with some very simple questions that reflect the questions I am being asked by the citizens I represent, some of whom are not very tech-savvy. Can somebody fly a drone over my house and is there a height restriction?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

There are areas where someone cannot fly a drone. We have what is called a geographical zone. For example, someone cannot fly a drone over an airport, a facility-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Apart from those zones. Could somebody fly a drone over my house?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

It depends on what part of the city, town or village the Cathaoirleach lives in. If there is no geo zone, yes, you can.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is there a height restriction?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

There is no particular height restriction.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Somebody could fly a drone 10 m over my house and there is no restriction, provided it is not in one of those zones.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

Yes. There are regulations in terms of the distance a drone can fly close to buildings or a group of people but to answer the question in a general sense, there is no height restriction.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the sites that are restricted, is there a map that tells me nationally where those restricted sites are? I presume they include airports and prisons

Mr. Jim Gavin:

That is correct. If you go to the drones page on the Irish Aviation Authority website and looks at the UAS geographical zone page, you will get all that information.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Someone could fly a drone 10 m over my house in Clonmel, in an estate of 30 houses, and there is nothing I can do about it under current legislation. It has nothing to do with the weight of the drone or whether it involves private or commercial use. Anybody can fly a drone over my house as it stands.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

Yes. I might bring in Mr. Walsh to supplement my answer.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

The use of drones is very broad. It could involve someone looking at the gutters in a house who needs to go over the house or estate agents photographing a house's neighbours. There is no specific height restriction. There will be restrictions on the different types of drones in operation as it goes up, so the larger drones would have to keep to greater distances from people and buildings but, as Mr. Gavin said, in a general sense, there is no specific height restriction. Nevertheless, the restrictions on the operation increase as the risk of the operation goes up.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What happens if there is a camera on that drone? What happens to the footage captured on that camera in terms of data protection?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

The Data Protection Commission has published guidance on the use of drones and that is within its remit. In a general sense, drone operators are required to respect a person's reasonable expectation of privacy, no more than someone using a dashcam on a vehicle.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today. They may have noticed that drones are getting a lot of attention at the moment.

Let me be clear; I am from Dublin West and this is no small, local matter. Dublin 15 is being used as a test ground to launch commercial drone operations nationally and globally. The decisions the Government is making now will shape how home deliveries and drone technology will develop now and into the future. My first question is: does Mr. Gavin accept we currently do not have an integrated regulatory framework when it comes to commercial drone operations? As was said, regulations focus on air and ground risk and do not take residential amenity into consideration. All four Dublin councils operate under a combined noise action plan, based on the EU environmental noise directive. However, drones appear to fall outside this framework. Is it correct that drone noise is not currently monitored or mapped under this plan? Which authority, if any, is responsible for monitoring drone generated environmental noise?

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy want to direct who she wants to answer the question? Is it the DCC or IAA?

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is all three.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I will comment on the regulation piece. For the avoidance of doubt, the IAA's remit with drone operations is the safety and security of those drones. That is our lane we have to ensure the drone is operated safely. For example, if you own a drone that is more than 250 g in weight and has a camera, you need to register with the Irish Aviation Authority. That is our responsibility. The other matters the Deputy mentioned are probably for the Department of Transport.

Mr. Paul Rutherford:

I thank the Deputy. I am the principal environmental health officer, EHO, with the noise control unit. The current legislation that deals with noise control is the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992. Section 108 of that legislation cites what is a noise nuisance but under section 108(4)(a), it says this section shall not apply to aircraft. Under that legislation, we cannot deal with noise complaints about drones.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Could I get an answer to my question about the integrated framework?

Professor Tim McCarthy:

It is very true when you look at this because it crisscrosses quite a few sectors and Departments. Remember too that when we look at drones, we operate and align with what goes on in Europe and with the European Union Aviation Safety Authority, EASA. That is where we are at. When you look at its constructs, they do not really go into this area of nuance, privacy impact and noise. It mentions it. The regulation, Regulation 2021/664, which underpins U-space is not quite comprehensive enough. As we said at the start, Ireland is at the forefront here. The Deputy is right; it is something we have to deal with very quickly. We do not have adequate governance or legislative instruments in place to handle this at this point.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does Professor McCarthy agree it is about balancing innovation with residential amenity?

Professor Tim McCarthy:

Absolutely. That is very easy to say but how would you do it? As we said, we would push out a bit more information, engagement, awareness, education and so on. We would say that from a technology point of view, we could take those pieces that underpin U-spaces, those digital twins, and invert them so that people can come on and take a look in a digital word what is the impact of these drones.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentations. I live about 700 yd or 800 yd away from the drone base in Millennium Park. I walk the park every day, so I see the drones every single day. There are currently six drones - they added one in the past couple of weeks - and because I am not part of the flight path, it does not directly come over our house unless it is delivering next door to us but it comes in that general direction. We hear them every day.

To echo some of the previous questions, there is a real concern in Dublin West around the delivery service. No one has any issue with the Garda, Civil Defence, the delivery of medicines or defibrillators and all these things. They are really good and really useful. The huge concern is not just where it is delivering now and the six to ten drones that are currently delivering commercially at the moment, but it is around the way this will impact into the future. They are currently impacting now. If you are in your house and your windows are closed, you might not hear them. If you are in your garden, if you are right next door or someone is getting a delivery two to three gardens away, it is very noisy. There is no denying that. I do not know whether the witnesses have heard them in their gardens but they can be heard.

I have a couple of questions on it. Noise is a massive issue but privacy is another one and I will go back to a very serious incident that happened several years ago with gardaí. There was CCTV footage of a very distraught person who was suffering serious mental health issues. It was recorded by a phone from the CCTV. That was shared on WhatsApp and was sent widely. It was fairly well nationally and internationally known. My real concern is that the potential for that to happen. If you are in your garden and someone takes a video of you from their drone, that is an issue. I know it is a GDPR issue and not necessarily related to this. Does Manna have exclusive use of the airspace? We were told Fingal County Council wanted to put up a drone in the Millennium Park and were refused because Manna had exclusive use of that airspace. Is there a maximum number of drones allowed by the IAA for the likes of this delivery service? If Manna decided tomorrow it wanted to put 100 up in the sky, is there a maximum?

In some other countries, you have ownership of the space above your property. I know Manna will say that you have an option to opt out of it. Do we have any ownership of the airspace or the height above our property?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

In terms of the airspace, the airspace is a State asset. The State owns the airspace. That is the first thing to say. In terms of the use of the airspace, any drone operator can use the airspace in the Deputy's locality. There is an arrangement between the air navigation services provider, ANSP, AirNav Ireland and Manna Air Delivery. The ANSP requires what is called a "geo-zone" to be in that block of airspace but any drone operator can operate in that area.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Gorman will be next to intervene. He has three and a half minutes, which includes time to answer the question.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

There is no limit to the number of drones that can be in a particular volume of airspace. However, it is up to that operator to come to the regulator to demonstrate how it will manage the risk associated with the number of drones in a volume of airspace. Again, it is always spaced.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair for holding this meeting specifically on commercial drones. I wrote to him a few weeks ago about this and he requested and facilitated it very quickly. I thank him for that.

I will address the IAA representatives. An article on The Journal yesterday stated that officials in the Department of Transport have been pitching Ireland as a global leader for commercial drones. Have officials from that Department, or anyone else, ever asked the IAA to contribute to that effort of pitching Ireland as a leader in this area?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

In respect of our engagement with the Department of Transport, we obviously have the technical competence for the safety and security of drone regulation. If an operator has come to the State to look to operate, we will engage with that entity to ensure it complies with the regulations. If it does, we will issue it with a certificate or authorisation.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Manna's statement indicated the IAA is due to approve a new technology that will allow a quieter movement of drones. How long has that approval request been with the IAA? When does it expect to provide an answer to it?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

We are engaged with the operator in respect of its upgrading of a propeller. It is quite a complex regulatory process, as the Deputy can imagine. We expect to see movement on that application in the short term, but we are engaging with the operator on that matter.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Could "short term" be quantified for us?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

No. From a regulatory perspective and as the regulator, we need certain evidence, assurances and safety cases associated with that particular propeller. I will not get into the specifics of our engagement with a regulated entity in this forum. Suffice to say, I expect it to be in the short term.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Can that propeller be used at all until the IAA gives approval?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

That is correct.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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It can or cannot?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

It cannot.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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We heard Dublin City Council state there is no published policy or legislation in this area. Mr. Rutherford pointed out the issue whereby noise pollution controls cannot apply to aircraft and, therefore, cannot apply to drones. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to the introduction of a framework policy. The Minister spoke about that in the Dáil when I questioned him a number of times. Has Professor McCarthy had any engagement with that process? Does he feel, from what he has seen, that policy framework will fill the gaps? The four areas I have always been concerned about are the safety of the drones, privacy, noise and the planning issues, or the question of planning permission. Does he feel that the proposed policy framework the Government is working on will address those four areas?

Professor Tim McCarthy:

I will honestly and quickly say I have not gone into detail on that particular policy. We are quite neutral on the research side. As a contribution here, it should be remembered that we are operating under IASA rules, to a large extent, and a lot of those frameworks are angled towards safety and security. They are not angled to some of these more contentious matters. What we are faced with in Ireland is how we address that.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. My first question is about the long-term game. I understand the commercial element of it but, ideally, I would like to see the State being used. Dublin Fire Brigade was spoken about, and there are search and rescue missions and operations where I live, between sea and mountain rescue. I would love to see more advancement in technologies for monitoring and securing our territorial waters. For the endgame, ideally, I would love to see research from other countries where the state is using drones as more than commercial entities, and that the use of drones for the benefit of our State always takes precedence.

I also have a question on the impact on jobs. Has there been research on that? For commercial entities, such as delivery services, it will have an impact on jobs. Is that being taken into the policy framework? Will there be some kind of feasibility study, or comparative studies in other countries, about the impact commercial drone technology will have on jobs?

Professor Tim McCarthy:

I will quickly jump in with a neutral view on that public-private-type endeavour in terms of drone operations. That balance, of course, has to be there where, on the one hand, there are commercially led drone activities but, equally, we can see there are a lot of uses. At Maynooth, we are involved with Dublin City Council and Dublin Fire Brigade. We have an exercise coming in a few weeks that will look at that. We are also working with the Irish Coast Guard and are in discussions with Dublin Port as well. We were with the Coast Guard in Rossaveel last November to look at the role of drones in search and rescue. That balance has to be struck. I will not comment on the job potential.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

Airspace is a State asset. Every commercial entity or State operator, such as An Garda Síochána, Óglaigh na hÉireann or the Irish Coast Guard, has access to the State's airspace.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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What about jobs? Will there be passenger drones? Is there any reference in the framework to the impact on the workforce or jobs?

Mr. Thomas Curran:

Not to date. It is an evolving technology. There will be jobs created. Potentially, they will balance out with assets in other sectors. Is the Senator referring to a workforce including the likes of delivery drivers?

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Yes. I am referring the impact on jobs.

Mr. Thomas Curran:

Pilots will be required. The food services industry will obviously ramp up if drone delivery takes off, so there will be jobs created in it. To answer the Senator's question, there is no specific research on this at the moment.

Professor Tim McCarthy:

The EU predicts 145,000 jobs across the Union. This is not specific to Ireland, but it gives a ballpark figure. The EU predicts a drone market value of €14.5 billion by 2030.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I really want to focus on the gaps and disconnects in current regulations that are affecting communities. We have established that there is no authority responsible for monitoring drone-generated environmental noise. Has there been any independent verification of the Trinity College noise report on Manna's drones which claims that drone flyovers in Dublin 15 stick out by 5 dB? It is reported that they are clearly audible but brief and are as loud as a person talking or a dishwasher operating, and that there is a momentary rise of 7 dB at the delivery stage, which is roughly the level of a distant household vacuum cleaner or washing machine.

Mr. Thomas Curran:

Dublin City Council has not done any noise testing with Manna or any other drone delivery company. We have done testing with our drones. We have done so in a park area just to establish a baseline, and we will be doing further testing around Dublin Port in the near future with larger drones. Since the industry and technology are so new, we are literally trying to establish a noise baseline in different areas.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am going to move on to planning and licensing. The IAA issued a light UAS operator certificate permitting the use of sub-bases at junction 6 and Clonsilla and a main base at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre for commercial drone operations. Commercial operations are not permitted at Clonsilla, so Fingal used enforcement powers to shut the operation down. The same is likely to happen at junction 6. How can the IAA, which regulates aviation, grant licences for ground operations and supersede the local planning code?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

The approvals we give are analogous to those for manned aviation. We give a commercial operator such as airline an air operating certificate and that air carrier then goes to an airport to operate its aircraft. We obviously approve the airport but we do not give the specific approvals for the air carrier as such. Our role is to assess the air and ground risks from a safety perspective.

On noise, there are no specific regulations for drones, with the exception of drones that you buy, typically off the shelf, with a CE marking. These have a specific decibel level. In some ways, there is no specific level for other drones. However, member states may apply restrictions, such as decibel level restrictions, to particular volumes of airspace.

Mr. Walsh might mention the approval process for the LUC.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

We assess the specific locations in terms of safety but the planning regulation falls entirely outside our scope. The operators would be required to apply for planning permission. While the IAA is a notifiable body with regard certain planning applications, we assess them in terms of safety only.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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As a result, there are major gaps concerning noise and integrating with the local planning code.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Cathal Crowe, who is speaking on behalf of Senator Imelda Goldsboro.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I apologise in advance because most of my questions will be directed to the representatives from the IAA, both of whom were both military men in a former life. Given that this is a time of heightened international security concerns, have there been any drone incursions into Irish airspace from bad actors or foreign military services?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

The IAA is not aware of any. That question should be directed towards the air navigation service provider for the en route sector in the State, AirNav Ireland.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Do drones have transponders? Upwards of what size must a drone be to have a transponder?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I will hand over to my technical expert, Mr. Walsh.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

There are three broad risk categories, namely open, specific and certified. Certified drones, which are not in operation yet, are more analogous to manned aircraft and have transponders. However, the majority of drones across that spectrum are required to have what we call direct remote ID. They broadcast over Wi-Fi and Bluetooth their operator registration ID, height, location, etc. That information can be scanned by anyone with a mobile device using a variety of free apps. That is very useful for the public to know for the purpose of reporting occurrences or reporting to us. They can hold up the phone and identify a drone, which makes our follow-up job a lot easier.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not possible to fly under the proverbial radar?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

Radar uses a different technology. It broadcasts a beam of energy to be reflected either off an aircraft surface or to a transponder, when then sends a code. Mr. Walsh mentioned that the regulation requires drone operators to have remote ID. As stated, there are apps that can be got for a smart device that will indicate the identity of the owner and operator of a drone.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Woodcock Hill radar station is a national asset in my constituency. I should declare that my farm abuts the station. What is the setback distance from it that applies in respect of drones? What should be the setback distance from wind turbine infrastructure, given that turbines are fixed in a locality and are arguably more intrusive? What is the setback distance that would be safe and operable for both drones and turbine infrastructure?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

Could the Deputy clarify what he means by setback distance?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the radius within which a drone should not go in order not to interfere with the safe workings of the radar.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

I understand. It entails a risk-based approach to regulation, depending on the size and complexity. If you were to buy a small drone over the counter, there would be, depending on its size, set operating distances from people and buildings. The distance can go up to 150 m. It depends on the drone and the operation itself; there is no specified distance.

With regard to interference with radar, smaller drones will not have much of an impact. In fact, the radar would have an impact on the drone before the drone would have an impact on the radar.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What about wind turbines?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

Again, one is obliged to avoid obstacles, just like manned aircraft are obliged to avoid obstacles. No drone operator should be flying anywhere near a wind turbine, apart from where it is approved for the likes of inspections. We have a drone operator approved to lift cargo up turbines and conduct inspections, for example.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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This is my slot. Did I hear Mr. Gavin state all drones over 250 g have to be registered with the IAA?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

That is correct. Alternatively, if they are under 250 g and have a camera, they must be registered with the IAA.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What if they are not registered with the IAA? Did I hear correctly that I can have an app on my phone with which I can identify whether a drone has an ID?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

That is correct. If you were to google drone scanners, you would find a variety of free apps. The majority of drones, with the exception of legacy drones and model aircraft, will have a direct remote ID and one will be able to read the operator registration number, serial number and so on.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is it illegal to fly a drone weighing less than 250 g but with a camera or one weighing more than 250 g over my house if it is not registered with the IAA? Earlier, I asked whether anyone could fly a drone over my house.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

Yes, it is.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

Anyone operating a drone within those categories that is not registered with us is in breach of the regulation.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have identified that there is a drone flying over my house that is not registered. Who do I ring?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

You can report into ourselves. The majority of class-identified drones come with a C-marking and will have that remote ID anyway. Even if they have not uploaded their operator registration, you can get the serial number and other information.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is from using this ad hoc app on my phone. Is there an app that the IAA recommends?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

There is not a particular app we recommend, but if you do a web search, there are multiple providers of them.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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How do I communicate that unauthorised flying of a drone over my house? Let us say I am an ordinary person at home, I am really concerned and I want to a report an incidence of an unauthorised, unregistered drone flying over my house.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

Any concerns, either occurrence reports or incidence reports, separate to general complaints, shall we say, where you feel there is a breach of the regulations, you can go to iaa.ie/dronealert and that will bring them to the centralised European portal for reporting occurrences.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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How many instances last year were there for complaints or concerns around unauthorised flying of drones to the IAA through that website?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

I can get that figure.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Roughly?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

I do not have that to hand.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Significant or insignificant?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

I can get the exact figure to you.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

It is worth noting the IAA can initiate enforcement actions up to and including detention of drones whose operation does not meet the safety requirements or we can suspend authorisations or certificates for the operator. Summary proceedings are also possible under national regulations by lodging a summons in the appropriate District Court. We have taken such action in the past and we have had a number of successful prosecutions against drone operators over the years.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is the ID I can pick up, if it is registered properly, linked to a specific operator or can a drone have a number of operators or can it have an operator that is authorised by the registered operator?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

That is a good question. I will let Mr. Walsh answer that one.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

You register as an operator rather than registering the drone. An operator may have multiple drones. They are required to display that operator ID on the drone and to upload it onto the remote ID.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I always thought, for the safe operation of a drone, the operator always had to have line of sight. What concerns me is these drones travelling around, for example, Dublin 15 or Fingal, and the operator does not have that physical line of sight. That is a real concern for me. The IAA is responsible for safety. Have the witnesses any concerns in that regard?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

Before I hand over to Mr. Walsh to give more detail, I will say that there are operations where you have to keep your drone in sight and there are what are called "beyond visual line of sight". We have given approvals, such as the case you have given there, where drone operators can operate their drone beyond the visual line of sight. Mr. Walsh can complement that with more detail, please.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

We spoke about the three broad risk categories. In the open category all operators are required to keep the drone in visual line of sight. That is being able to see the drone and also being aware of the surroundings and to understand what is underneath it and what is around it in terms of other aircraft. In the specific category you can have beyond visual line of sight operations. These are quite common throughout Europe. We assess the air risk and the ground risk before issuing an authorisation, but to do beyond visual line of sight, you do need specific authorisation from ourselves.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The IAA has no issue with where that physical line of sight is not possible?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

It is not that the IAA does not have an issue. It is whether the drone operator complies with the particular regulations to allow beyond visual line of sight operations. If they do and give us the evidence for the safety case, we give them the appropriate certification.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Maeve O'Connell on behalf of Deputy Grace Boland.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I have a couple of questions, first to Professor McCarthy and Mr. Gavin. Listening to the contributions so far, we do not really have any limitations on noise, we do not have any limitations on the number of drones that can fly in open airspace and we do not have a lower limit that drones can fly at. It does sound more like a bit of a wild west and a completely unregulated area.

Professor Tim McCarthy:

In short, yes, we are at the front line here. We are so used to following the lead from others in Europe and across the world. What we can point to is what some others have done, and we mentioned this at the start, and not just the USA but also Canada and Australia, in doing practical things in ensuring we have good governance at the top. That is pointing to policy and to strategy and bringing the regulatory alignment, but also looking at those nuanced issues and codes of practice right through to stakeholder engagement. Doing a practical thing, we might consider setting up an advisory committee so it is not left to one body to carry the heavy lifting. Those issues mentioned are not easy ones to sort out. We are not going to sort them out here today, but we could do these practical steps that have been done in other jurisdictions, be at the front line here and show the way rather than us in Ireland usually following others.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

Let me be very clear for the avoidance of doubt for the Cathaoirleach and the committee. From a safety and security perspective, there are strict regulations that drone operators must comply with. We have taken proceedings against a number of drone operators who have not complied with the safety regulations and we have had a number of successful prosecutions in this matter. It is a highly regulated area in terms of safety and security.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Gavin for that clarification. It is very useful. Mr. Curran mentioned that Dublin City Council were planning to have a series of public engagements on drones. Is this something he would recommend for other local authorities before they seek to license drone operators in their area?

Mr. Thomas Curran:

We do not license drone operators.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Would planning permission purposes be more appropriate?

Mr. Thomas Curran:

There is nothing in planning permission for drone flights. The only place where we get involved in planning permission is for ground operations and for ground infrastructure, as that is the only thing currently covered by the legislation.

Ms Edel Kelly:

The biggest gap in relation to the local authorities dealing with drones and drone deliveries in particular is that there is no planning framework or planning policy. The local authorities and planning authorities are acting within a vacuum. The appropriate place for that consultation or engagement would be with our development plans, as they come. However, for us to be effective in that regard, we have to have this national policy that we then bring in to our city or county plans. In the absence of that, we cannot really do this from a bottom-up point of view. We need this to come from central government. We really are working within a vacuum. The planning application lands with Dublin City Council and it is very difficult to deal with.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I want to go back to the Irish Aviation Authority regarding radar infrastructure. There is a radio wave pinged to an aircraft and it positions it at a given time, horizontally and vertically. There are EU mandates to have separation of three nautical miles in Dublin airspace and five nautical miles in en route airspace. Is that correct?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

That is for manned aviation, yes.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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A total of 80% of all transatlantic aircraft are coming into Europe and are not all landing in Ireland, but they are flying over Irish airspace through Shanwick over that Woodcock Hill radar. I have already made the point that drones could compromise this, and the IAA has lots of signage in and around that radar station cautioning that drones should not be used. The elephant in the room is that there are a lot of wind farms being planned for in this area - fixed infrastructure that rotates and can affect the efficacy of that radio wave pinging up and back to the aircraft. What is the Irish Aviation Authority position on that?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

The Deputy mentioned the volume of transatlantic aircraft that goes through what is called Irish-controlled airspace, not so much over Irish sovereign airspace. Certainly, 80% of those aircraft do not fly over Woodcock Hill. Off the west coast of Ireland there is half a million sq. km of airspace that is controlled, as the Deputy mentioned, by Shanwick, which is Shannon and Prestwick, under the 1996 agreement. That is just to clarify that particular point. Regarding operating drones in the environs of a radar head, no more so than with manned aviation, it is the operators' responsibility not to operate that drone or manned aircraft in an irresponsible manner. As my colleague Mr. Walsh mentioned, there are limits and distances you need to operate a drone away from buildings, facilities and people. If we are aware that a person is misbehaving and using their drone in an unsafe manner, we can initiate proceedings against that individual.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I get that. The drone is very obstructive. It compromises safety, I would say. The witnesses have made that very clear. Yet, the drone gets packed away into a bag and is taken home again. There is fixed infrastructure - antennae, aerials, masts, turbines - all going up in this area and potentially compromising Irish airspace and the efficacy of radar and potentially compromising air safety.

Would the witnesses comment on that aspect please?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I will hand over to Mr. Walsh on that one.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

There is a facility under the regulation, as was mentioned earlier, to establish UAS geographical zones which would put restrictions on safety, security, environmental and privacy grounds. If there are specific areas where we feel there is increased threat to safety, the geographical zones can be put in place to put in restrictions there, as we would have done around the airports, and the security ones around the Curragh Camp.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Walsh has not specifically answered what I have asked. I am asking about fixed infrastructure that could compromise the efficacy of radar.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

If an air navigation service provider, ANSP, believes that their communication, navigation and surveillance, CNS, facility has the potential to be compromised by drones, we would expect that it would approach us, as its regulator, to say it needs to mitigate this risk by placing a geozone over that particular-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Chair, with respect, I will not get a chance again. I am asking about the fixed infrastructure, and that aspect has not been answered.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Thank you for waiting patiently.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Chairman, you took two minutes yourself to get an answer. I would like a few extra seconds to have that question answered.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Ten seconds.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

This is with regard to-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Fixed infrastructure: masts and antennae that have been put up around this radar.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

As I said, for the drone operator or the remote pilot, it is their responsibility to-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am not talking about drones. I am talking about fixed, anchored antennae, masts and turbines that are being put up around radar stations.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I am sorry. That is a different matter. I thought it was drones-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will give Deputy Crowe an opportunity to ask that question next week when the IAA is here.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I can get back to the Deputy on that matter.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, I thank Mr. Gavin.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Coppinger contacted the committee in advance looking to speak today and I am delighted to give the floor to her.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I thank the Chair and all the witnesses. My time is very short. I am one of the people living under the experiment and guinea pig situation in Dublin 15. I think we all agree with drones for civil defence, topography, delivering medicines and all that. What we are talking about is drone delivery by commercial companies for fast food and coffee. It seems to me, by what I am hearing today, that the IAA is responsible for the safety of the drones. The councils will not take any complaints about noise. The Department of Transport will not either, so we have a situation where residents whose lives are dramatically impacted by these drone deliveries have no recourse. That is what we are saying here today. Is that correct? The other issue is that there are no residents even represented here today.

Professor McCarthy said there should be societal acceptance. Would he not agree that we need a higher bar than that assent and approval of the airspace over our houses and back gardens suddenly being invaded by drones? I ask Professor McCarthy to be very brief because I have another question.

Professor Tim McCarthy:

In short, it is a multilayered cake but I will cut to the chase here and point to a societal acceptance task group in Canada, for example. In its terms of reference, it went out and asked what it would look at. It was enforcement of applicable regulations, concerns about safety, trust in drone operators, threats to privacy, understanding the drone industry, drones at source and so on. I am saying we have to be more proactive here in engaging with neighbourhood groups.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I take issue with Professor McCarthy's word "acceptance". There should be a much higher bar than just accepting something. For example, if there is a planning application for a building, people such as councillors, etc., can write in and make their submissions, but there is no recourse at the moment for residents living under these drones.

One other issue is jobs and the economy. Professor McCarthy gave a figure for 145,000 jobs in the EU and €4.5 billion. Does that include the military and defence?

Professor Tim McCarthy:

That was the European report.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Yes. Does it include military and defence for drones?

Professor Tim McCarthy:

I am unsure.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Yes, I think it does. The other thing is about jobs. Would Professor McCarthy agree that Manna coming in and replacing Deliveroo bike riders with drones is, first, not good for jobs and is certainly not good for the environment because the bikes the Deliveroo riders are using are perfectly environmentally acceptable?

Professor Tim McCarthy:

As someone from a neutral research body, I am not going to say one way or the other.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Okay. One of the other contributors said we have a wild west situation and Mr. Gavin quickly came in about the safety of the drones. What we are all talking about here is that there is a wild west for residents with regard to noise, privacy and their lives being upended. This is going to increase from 170,000 flights by Manna to 2 million, which is its target. It has just got investment from Coca-Cola and venture capitalist companies and it is going to dramatically accelerate. Does Mr. Gavin agree there is a wild west at the moment?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

What I can speak to, in the context of our responsibility as the regulator for civil aviation, is that there are strict regulatory requirements from a safety and security perspective for the operation of a drone.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Nothing for noise.

Mr. Jim Gavin:

As I referenced before, for CE-marked drones, there are noise requirements. Other than that, member states have the power to put in place restrictions for noise for airspace or blocks of airspace.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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They would have to fly higher to reduce the noise.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. Before I conclude this first session, Mr. Gavin mentioned the number of prosecutions around breaches of safety. Have there been any prosecutions for the use of unregistered drones?

Mr. Jim Gavin:

I will hand over to Mr. Walsh on that one.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

That forms part of one prosecution, yes.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Have there been prosecutions for simply unregistered drones, not breaches of safety? Drones that have not been registered-----

Mr. Enda Walsh:

In that particular prosecution there were other issues but being unregistered was part of that.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Were there any specific prosecutions just for unregistered drones?

Mr. Enda Walsh:

No, just that one-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Walsh might come back to the committee with regard to 2024 and 2025, how many reports have come into the IAA about drones under 250 g with a camera or over 250 g not registered with the IAA, and maybe a bit more, and if there have been follow-ups or prosecutions in that regard. He might follow that up with the committee.

Mr. Enda Walsh:

We certainly will.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives of the IAA, Mr. Gavin and Mr. Walsh, Professor McCarthy from Maynooth University, and Ms Kelly, Mr. Curran and Mr. Rutherford from Dublin City Council for their time today. We will now move to the second session, if that is okay. Do members wish to take a five-minute break or will we go straight into it? We will take a five-minute break, is that agreed? Agreed. We will suspend and resume at 10.50 a.m. if that is okay, and the witnesses can take their seats.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of today's meeting is for the joint committee to discuss unmanned aircraft systems. I am pleased to welcome on behalf of the committee from Manna Air Delivery, Mr. Bobby Healy, chief executive officer, and Mr. Kevin Houston, head of regulation, and from the University of Limerick, Dr. Gerard Dooly, co-director of the centre for robotics and intelligent systems, and Mr. Anthony Weir, researcher in field robotics.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I ask members participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. I invite Mr. Healy, chief executive officer of Manna Air Delivery, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Cathaoirleach and members of the committee, it is a genuine honour to be here. I am here on behalf of Manna Air Delivery, an Irish commercial drone delivery company at the forefront of a technological revolution. Manna has become the recognised world leader in the fledgling drone industry. With the support of the Irish State, through the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, and Enterprise Ireland, we are expanding rapidly. We have already created more than 160 jobs in north County Dublin and we have the potential to become the next CRH, Kerry Group or Stripe. We are in the business of taking vehicles off congested, polluted and dangerous roads by moving commercial delivery to the skies. The traditional model of road delivery is not just unsustainable; it is increasingly slow and inefficient for our growing population.

We design and build autonomous electric aircraft in Glasnevin and Moorock, County Offaly. All of our research and development is conducted in Ireland and we have invested tens of millions of euro in these efforts over the past five years. Drone delivery offers a faster, greener and safer way forward while fully respecting the privacy of the communities we serve. In Dublin 15 alone, our flights have removed 3,500 kg of CO2 every month. We generate just one eighth of the CO2 of the equivalent road-based delivery.

On noise, yes, drones produce a sound that is noticeable. Leading experts in acoustics science from Trinity College Dublin assessed our aircraft and found that while cruising at 65 m, they emitted just 57 dB, quieter than a conversation, for ten seconds as they pass overhead. We have developed and tested new technology that is 40% quieter again and we are awaiting regulatory approval for full deployment. We continue to invest significantly in technology to become quieter. We foresee a future where people will barely hear drones at all.

We are fully GDPR compliant. Our drones do not store or record images or video. A small camera is used to ensure the safety of the area we deliver onto.

When concerns are raised, we listen. Since launching in March, we have done more 34,000 deliveries in Dublin 15. At the start of the year, we had 53 complaints. Entering last week, we had a total of 120 complaints in Dublin 15, with 22% of complainants being active users of our service. Every single inquiry has been addressed, often face to face, and by me personally. We are listening and not shying away. This is about jobs. We have created more than 160 high-tech, high-value jobs in Dublin - people paying their taxes in Ireland and a company investing in and paying its taxes in Ireland. We power 45 small business in the Dublin 15 area, which are thriving because they can reach customers quickly and safely.

We worked with the Dublin Fire Brigade and the National Ambulance Service to launch a defibrillator pilot in Dublin 15. As per the professor of cardiology services in the HSE, if we roll this technology out nationally, we will save 900 lives per year with it. During the Covid-19 pandemic, we saw at first hand how drone delivery can serve vulnerable and isolated members of the public. Our team worked with residents in Moneygall to safely deliver medicines and essential goods to medically vulnerable households when traditional access was limited.

We know that trust must be earned, not claimed. We welcome oversight, regulation and community conversation. This is not about replacing what is good. It is about making things better, safer, greener and more accessible and equitable for everyone. I thank members for their time and attention. I welcome questions.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Healy. I invite Dr. Dooly to make his opening statement on behalf of the centre for robotics and intelligent systems.

Dr. Gerard Dooly:

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today. I am an associate professor at the school of engineering at the University of Limerick and director of the centre for robotics and intelligent systems. I lead all drone operations at the University of Limerick under its operator licence and manage a large cohort of qualified pilots under various categories. For over a decade, our work, supported by EU and Irish national funding grants, has focused on real-world drone applications across emergency response, environmental monitoring, offshore energy and industrial inspection. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Anthony Weir, one of my primary pilots and field operators.

This meeting comes at a time when public awareness of drones is rapidly growing. Recent developments have sparked debate, particularly regarding the frequency and noise of drone delivery operations. While these concerns are understandable, I stress that the technology itself is not the core issue. The real challenge lies in how we regulate, deploy and engage with the public on the use of drones in a way that supports both innovation and community well-being. Globally, we are witnessing a decisive shift in how nations are embracing drones, not just as niche tools but as mainstream infrastructure. In the UK, a £2 billion investment was announced just a few weeks ago to expand drone capabilities across defence and civil applications. Both the United States and Canada made significant announcements in recent months and are accelerating drone innovation, largely through deregulation and investment to promote competitiveness. Across Europe, member states are investing in U-space corridors, digital air traffic services and innovation zones to co-ordinate safe integration of drones into airspace.

Ireland should not fall behind. Through the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, and within the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, framework, Ireland has a strong foundation for drone regulation. Regulation must evolve alongside adoption. We have the opportunity to improve the responsiveness of licensing processes, expand the IAA’s capacity for regulation and, ultimately, support the operators who are working to comply with complex technical requirements. Public education and awareness campaigns can also go a long way towards demystifying drone use and helping the wider population understand the benefits and obligations tied to responsible operations. We can also do more to increase awareness among general aviation pilots, who must understand and respect the realities of operating in shared airspace.

Drones are not just for delivery. They are reshaping agriculture, construction, habitat monitoring, infrastructure inspection and emergency services. They reduce risk, lower emissions and create high-value jobs. With the right supports, Ireland can lead not just in flying drones but in building the smart, safe systems they rely on.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Dooly. I ask members to stick to the times. They have three and a half minutes each, including for answers.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are very welcome. As a commercial entity, I understand Mr. Healy's company operates within the existing regulatory framework. It is up to us as legislators to push for better regulation and for the Government to provide it. Does Mr. Healy accept that the test period in Dublin 15 needs to end and that we need an integrated regulatory framework that deals with the legitimate concerns of the community which have arisen in the past 12 to 18 months and people's lived experience of commercial drone operators? Why did Mr. Healy choose Dublin 15?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

On why we chose Dublin 15, to be clear this is our sixth operation in Ireland. We started in Moneygall. We were then in Oranmore, and then Balbriggan, and we are currently in Dublin 15. Dublin 15 is a great example of a typical European high-density suburb with huge traffic problems and thriving businesses but pockets of retail areas in particular that suffered post-Covid. It was a great example, we thought, to have a good production run, not a trial. We do not consider it a trial. If we stopped it, we would simply be out of business. We would look at the 35,000 people we deliver to in Dublin 15 and we would be disappointing them if we walked away. I still get letters every week from people in Balbriggan-----

Mr. Bobby Healy:

-----and Oranmore asking me to please bring the service back. Our customers are part of this project with us. We are all learning together. I accept there are issues - of course there are - but we are not going to walk away from it easily.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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In the company's noise report it is claiming a baseline of 52 dB for Dublin 15. I am wondering where that baseline has come from. Is that based on somebody's back garden?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

The baseline is 59 dB and 57 dB in Dublin 15. It came from testing the acoustics. Dr. John Kennedy, who is associate professor of acoustics at Trinity College, is an expert in measuring these devices. I saw some questioning of the report earlier, but this is a well-known methodology for testing drones flying by. I noted the member of Dublin City Council measured its drone in an open space. We did not. We measured it flying over streets, culs-de-sac and busy areas where you will get reverberations from buildings. This system is well known and used on the EASA side to quantify the noise impact of the sphere of influence of a drone flying overhead. It is a very scientific and well-proven method.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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According to the report I read, it is a 52 dB space. It goes up to 59 dB to 62 dB for a flyover and then goes up again when it is hovering. I am asking about the 52 dB level Mr. Healy is using in relation to the standard experience of noise.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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It is the responsibility of Government, not private business, to legislate and the failure of Governments over the past couple of years to legislate on this is the reason we are all sitting here. We are not here talking about defibrillators and medicine but the commercial end of drone delivery and its impact on residents. Should Manna not hold off scaling up until legislation with proper guidelines is in place? How many drones does the company plan to put into operation this year and in 2026 and 2027? On noise, if I am sitting in my garden and a drone delivers next door to me, what is the maximum decibel level? If a car is driving past, walls will block the noise. With a lawnmower, most gardens have concrete walls on both sides that block the noise. In the case of a drone, however, it comes directly down over your head.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

The Deputy asked how many drones we have. We are operating four, not six, drones right now at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. We have spares on the ground but we only fly four drones and then we-----

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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Why are the spares not put out?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

It is just to have spares. With aircraft, there are maintenance issues and if there are any questions, you use a spare. We only have permission to fly four drones out of the shopping centre right now.

On gardens, that is the big one. I have one great example of a cul-de-sac of ten houses, nine of which are using the service and one that is not. I had a complaint from that one household. We fully accept that we need to have a debate on this area and we need regulations on the particular use for drones. I have no objections to that; in fact, I would embrace it.

On the point about decibels, when a drone arrives overhead it descends to 15 m, which is the noisiest part of the process. It is pretty loud - I will admit that - at about 59 dB. We will bring that down to about 55 dB with our new propellers and mass production.

If I may follow up on Deputy Currie's question because I missed part of it, the level is not 52 dB today. That is our target for when we reduce the weight of the aircraft, have new propellers and go to 80 m altitude. Right now, it is over 52 dB; is actually 57 dB.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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On the scaling up, Manna is only allowed four drones at the moment?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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What are the plans for 2026 and 2027? The company obviously has a business plan.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Most of our plans are international, so our growth primarily will be in the Nordics. We have an operation in Finland and an operation in Texas. Most of our operations are international. The Irish market is great. It is a small market, relatively speaking. I think we would have a maximum of 100 drones in the whole country and that would be sufficient to run the business.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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Is that across the Thirty-two counties or just the Twenty-Six Counties?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

The Twenty-Six Counties.

Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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My first question is for Dr. Dooly. On regulation in other countries, what is the general direction of travel in, say, the UK and on mainland Europe? What does regulation look like? What sort of delta is there between where we are and where those countries are?

Dr. Gerard Dooly:

In European airspace we are all mandated by a common regulation which is derived through EASA regulations. We are harmonised and while the UK follows a lot of the same regulations, it is slightly different. I guess in other countries it is different. With delivery drones, the situation that is occurring with noise decibels has happened in other countries. In Australia there were significant issues with the noise of drones. Operators there were refused planning. They moved location.

In the US, there were issues. They moved location. It is not a new issue that is coming up. It has happened in other non-European countries. The operator employed some of the mitigations after they were refused planning. There was significant backlash from the public. They would have looked at changing out props. They would have looked at adaptive control systems for when they are under way versus when they are hovering. They would have looked at moving flight altitudes when under way up to 85 m, perhaps. This is similar to what is being looked at here. Some of the other issues they would have looked at include vibration reduction on the frame and on some of the motors, as well as engaging with the community, that is, transparency and community engagement. There are various things around public engagement, such as showing people what the noise is at different levels. They also mapped their noise across different levels - not just after reaching a 65 m zone when they are on their way but also at 15 m, where they are actually dropping the goods. There are actions. It is mostly best practice that other operators have done in non-EU countries.

Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Healy has been on a journey with this company and the evolution of the technology. What is a summary of Mr. Healy's main learnings so far? What are the things he would do differently if he was starting the journey again? Are there things he would continue doing or do more of?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I have learned with greater conviction that Ireland is the right place to do it. We have generally a business-friendly community, Government and a robust regulatory environment that provides a lot of clarity. I wish we had had better regulations from both a planning point of view and a societal acceptance point of view. I wish that was developed further. There is nowhere in the world that has that. The only place that does have it is Australia. Would we have been better served in Australia? Maybe, because Google's draw and delivery programme has been there for more than ten years. They have led the way with this. Most of what I have learned is that we have been lacking clear policy on what companies like us are going to be doing. I wish we would have had that earlier.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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My questions are primarily for Mr. Healy. In his opening statement, he referenced that Manna has received support from Enterprise Ireland and the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund. Could he give us an indication of what scale of support it has received?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We are in the HPSU programme. It is like any domestic company. We get their support and financial assistance in the form of equity grants. They are a shareholder in the company.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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What is the scale of that share holding?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I could not say the exact number but it is more than €1 million.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Noise is one of the biggest complaints my office has received on drones. We met earlier this year. The witnesses spoke about the new blades that were to be installed. Am I correct that no drones that are operational have had new blades installed and the approval for that is with the IAA? When did Manna submit that application for approval?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We have been in discussions with IAA about our plans to do this for several months. We have been testing them ourselves in Moorock where we do our flight testing. I cannot speak for the IAA, so I cannot when we can expect the permission to fly those props. It is a tight regulatory process. We have submitted all the documents. We are in discussions with IAA on that. I hope, as Mr. Gavin said, it is very soon.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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What altitude does Manna currently fly at?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Today, we fly over ground at 65 m.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Does it hope to move to 80 m?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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What is the process to get approval for that?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

The process is we sign a memorandum of understanding, MOU, with AirNav Ireland, which controls the airspace. That MOU is submitted to IAA and goes inside our permissions. We have already applied to the IAA for that permission. However, we still await the MOU from AirNav Ireland.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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We have spoken about the noise issue before. Both of those points have been proposed as big game-changers of the noise. However, both seem to be quite a distance away of being delivered or at least there is uncertainty on both of those points.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Certainly. It is a well understood regulatory process but quite a diligent one. The IAA has its work to after it gets our documents. It will challenge us no doubt on our documents on the day that we provide. Similarly, AirNav Ireland is managing the airspace. It is a complex airspace in Dublin. I feel it is soon, but it could be weeks or months. It is certainly not further.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Does Manna operate from the Coolmine Industrial Estate in Dublin 15?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes, we do.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Since when?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

It is approximately six months.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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How many bases are in the Dublin 15 area?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

There are three.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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It is Coolmine Industrial Estate, Junction 6 and Blanchardstown Centre.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I live close to the Junction 6 base. How does the process unfold if I wanted to not have Manna Air Delivery drones fly over my house? How far as the householder can I request or insist that it flies around my house?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We turn those around in a day. The Deputy can email community@manna.aero and we will block the house straight away.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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How far is that blockage?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

The property.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Is it just over the property?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of Senator Mark Duffy, I call Deputy Emer Currie.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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On the issue of the noise, when I speak to residents, they are of the view that their back garden noise would be around 40 dB to 46 dB. We have been contacted by some residents in Glasnevin where it is 43 dB and upwards. The baseline that Manna is using its research references 52 dB as standard urban noise, whereas back gardens seem to be much lower than that. With a lower baseline based on a back garden, the noise of either 57 dB to 59 dB at a flyover or 10 dB above that when it is hovering in someone's garden is dramatic. Does Mr. Healy take that on board?

Going back to the test language, we have heard that Dublin 15 has been a testing ground. We need regulations for this to continue. We need integrated regulations relating to noise and planning. Does Mr. Healy accept that? What does he think about U-space as a solution? Would he be willing to engage with that?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We are actively engaging U-space and EASA on noise regulations and noise acceptance levels. I am personally active with EASA on the noise. Mr. Houston is active on the U-space side. We work with Maynooth University and the IAA on this. The baseline noise is from the World Health Organization and the EPA. It is not our research. Those are the numbers from those organisations. I am not using those to beat up residents or to ignore them. I listen to residents. However, those are not our data. It is EPA and the WHO.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Is this when it is not somebody's back garden?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

It is. It is background, urban and suburban noise.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That could be a streetscape.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes, it could be. It is averaged. I completely accept the input. I am not downplaying it. I speak to these residents. I am unsure about what the question was on testing. We do not call this a test. This is a real business. We are building a real business. We believe Blanchardstown and Dublin 15 is one example of a perfect environment for us to operate in.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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How is Mr. Healy engaging with U-space?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We are acting with Maynooth University and other stakeholders to get a project up and running to test out a U-space in Ireland.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Is that relating to flight paths, schedules and noise? Does Mr. Healy think that is a solution going forward?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

It is work in progress. It would be easy for me to say it is a solution. We need a much more comprehensive engagement on the development of U-space. That should involve local government and national government in the form of policy. National government should be in the mix when it comes to U-space development. Do I think it is the answer? Yes, I do. We had the head of EASA visit our operation in Blanchardstown. He was one of the instigators of U-space. We discussed it at length. We do think it is the answer.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does Manna Air Delivery use cameras or record?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We use a camera when we arrive over a house. If someone is getting a delivery from us, right at delivery height we will open the camera to make sure there are no people underneath. We do not record anything.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is it used in the journey from A to B, before you get to the house?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

No.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Regarding potential and unexpected or unknown hazards, how are they anticipated and what are the protocols around them?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

What we would do about hazards is in our operations manuals. The Chair means high-altitude obstacles-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Unknowns.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I will give the examples of cranes. We scour the area every day looking for new cranes being erected because they are not notified quite often. Cranes would be a good example of a hazard. We would be aware of that and block it in our airspace. Similarly, if there is a concert going on in Millennium Park, which frequently happens, ice skating and things like that, we block that area in our air space and we do not fly over it.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There are no automatic fail-safes built into the drone. The flight path is based on knowledge the company has gathered in advance. Let me ask the question this way. Have we had an unexpected crash with a hazard to date?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

No, we have never hit an obstacle that was unexpected.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Never.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

To be clear, we have 35 people working in Dublin 15 who would be fully aware of any aware of any hazards. Before we start operating, we have data from various different data sources that would tell us where the tall buildings are. For any new things, we have somebody in cars every day travelling around, looking for obstacles that we would identify.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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So there have been no occurrences to date and there are protocols in place.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Correct.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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As Chair of the committee, in advance of today’s committee hearing, I received a lot of communication from residents living in Dublin 15, potentially living in Fingal as well, and concerns across many different areas such as safety, the lack of regulatory oversight - which ultimately is a responsibility for us as legislators - noise, overflights of schools and so on. To what extent has Manna engaged with local communities to date?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We have had significant engagement with all the local communities we have flown in. In Dublin 15 alone, I have spoken at Fingal Chamber. We had multiple members of this committee over to our base recently. We had engagement in the local tennis club. I have personally visited four of the local schools. In total, we visited, I think, ten of the local schools. To be clear, we do not fly over schools during school hours, nor do we fly over hospitals. We have had significant engagement. We did multiple flyer drops to every single eircode in the community before we began the service as well. We also have a lot of information on our website that people can download and read. We have had significant community engagement, and that is ongoing and increasing. I personally am involved. When we get a complaint email or a question from one of the constituents or residents, I would usually be involved in that answer.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. On behalf of Deputy Grace Boland, Deputy Maeve O'Connell is next.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. We all know it is voluntary that they are here. It is an important part of the public engagement that they and the previous witnesses talked about, and part of the educational piece for all of us.

I specifically ask about an application Manna has in for a drone base in Dundrum, which is adjacent to Holy Cross Church. In the absence of planning and regulations, it is up to Manna to decide where a good base is. Is it appropriate to try to place a base right next to a church, where there will be bridal parties arriving with buzzing drones and funerals leaving with buzzing drones? In addition, in that area, there is an outdoor ice rink in the winter months, and in the summer months, we have the Dundrum street festival. How was that location chosen? Were those issues taken into account?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Without joking, my mother lives in Kilmacud and she is dying to get the service. She is 88 years old and she will be our biggest customer. Humour aside, I am from that area. We will reach my house with the service. I know many people and businesses in the area. There is much pent-up demand for the service. We have wanted to come to Dundrum for a long time. The choice of location is primarily around the businesses there. As a simple principle, we never fly over large bodies of people. For example, when the ice rink is there, we will not be operating. When there is a wedding or funeral going on, we will not be operating or we will fly away from it. We are well aware of that and we have a process of being aware of events or public bodies of people so that we will not fly over them.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Healy made a comment earlier about the CO2 emissions and the comparison to how Manna saves. What was the comparator? Was it compared with e-bikes or car deliveries?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We compared it with the most popular form of transport for food takeaway, which is road and car.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have an add-on question. Regarding monitoring events, is Manna checking rip.ie every day, for example? How is Manna aware of funerals at a particular location or weddings?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

In the case of the church, that is an easy one. Our ground team works with the local chaplain to find out what is going on. Do not forget, we have people at the site every day. We will have about 50 people in the Dundrum area working for us across the shifts. We would be aware through engagement with locals. I will give the example of the ice rink in Blanchardstown, in Millennium Park. We were aware of that by working with local business. It is a manual process.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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My questions are primarily aimed at the University of Limerick. I recently travelled to see the laboratory and all they are doing. In the formal confines of the committee, I propose that we might have a committee visit there at some stage, if fitting. What is going on there is incredible. Today we are talking about air drones, but they also have a huge number of robotic craft and maritime craft. It would be worthwhile for our committee to visit sometime. I formally propose that here today.

It was said at the beginning that this technology can be used in a whole range of spheres to help the Irish State. Could Dr. Dooly or Mr. Weir expand on that and suggest some ways in which this could be further developed?

Dr. Gerard Dooly:

Within our research group, we are primarily funded to investigate, say, sustainable development goals and benefit to communities. Much of our research would be habitat mapping with NPWS or BirdWatch Ireland, or even offshore energy mapping for birds off the shore or the coast. We do a lot of habitat enforcement and mapping in that sense. There are many uses for drones. When we look at investment in other countries, there is significant investment now going on and much of that would be in defence, but much of it is also in civilian use. When we see civilian developments in drones going on in other countries, it has benefits across many sectors. There are developments within civilian applications like these rolled out into developments and benefits for other sectors.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Other European countries have what is called a national laboratory where the state has very much bought into this. They bankroll innovation and ensure they are at the cutting edge for civilian use, military use and all sorts of applications. Is Ireland unique in not having a national laboratory? Do the witnesses have any suggestions as to how we might be able to develop one?

Dr. Gerard Dooly:

Within our research, we cover underwater robotics, which is inspection of underwater habitats, energy infrastructure, surface robotics and heterogeneous robotics, where there is a combination of surface robotics for long-range surface vessels with aerial drones as well combined. Looking at what we have in the context of Ireland Inc., we have the Marine Institute, which covers the marine aspects. In the US, there are multiple organisations looking at the technology development. The Marine Institute would primarily look at some technology elements but it would also be primarily focused on science. Within Ireland, we lack technology development for robotics, which would be a hub. We engage with all of the various sectors within Ireland, including defence, the Coast Guard and all of the various blue light services and even the DAA in Dublin in terms of management of airspace there. There is a benefit to offering a national hub for that. There are national hubs for marine in the US such as NOAA and WHOI. There are multiple comparable research centres of excellence in other countries in the technology space.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Before I go to Deputy Coppinger, I apologise to those watching online for a number of technical glitches we had earlier on.

I call Deputy Coppinger, to be followed by Deputy Gannon.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I thank all the witnesses for attending. I do not have a lot of time, so I need quick answers, if possible.

Are any of the witnesses living in Dublin 15 or an area where fast food drone delivery is taking place?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

No.

Mr. Kevin Houston:

Yes.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Mr. Houston is living in Dublin 15. Okay.

Manna begins its statement by saying its business is taking vehicles off congested roads, but that is not its business. Its business is drone delivery for profit. One of the issues - it is the big issue - is noise. It is not just decibel level that is a problem with noise. According to the EPA, there are different components, including tonal, but the multi-rotation of the propellers that are associated with drones creates a lot of noise. According to Manna, it is quieter than a conversation. First of all, if I am out in my back garden, I do not necessarily want to hear continual conversation taking place that I did not invite. I have here a recording of one drone over my estate and I think the witnesses will agree that it is not quieter than a conversation. Sorry, I am encountering another technology glitch.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Coppinger, it will be very difficult for anyone to see that video, and unless we can upload it to the main screens-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Okay. I had a meeting last night with 40 residents participating in it. That is the noise of the drone there. That is on my estate one Saturday morning. Would the witnesses agree that that is a lot more annoying than just a quiet conversation?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

An iPhone is no way to record noise levels. It attenuates signals to amplify them intentionally so that it can hear voices better, so it is not an appropriate way to measure sound. I defer to the research from Trinity-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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What is an appropriate way?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Professional research, and I would refer to both the WHO and the EPA on this as well as Trinity College Dublin's research, which is high-quality research using professional recording equipment.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I can only go by a resident living under a drone.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes. I accept that.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Residents cannot go to Trinity College and ask researchers there to come out and assess the situation. I am giving the witnesses an honest representation of what it is like for residents living under drones. Manna plans to accelerate that for residents. The gap here in this whole session today is that there is no voice for residents. No disrespect to the engineers, but we should have people from sociology and health and other academics.

Mr. Healy mentioned defibrillation. Defibrillation is not Manna's business, obviously. It would not be doing it only for the other business. Have any studies been done on the health impact of increased access to fast food arising from drones or to social cohesion from drone deliveries? That is one of the gaps we have in this session today.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Just a ten-second reply.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Is that question to me?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I am asking the academics.

Dr. Gerard Dooly:

I am not aware of this. Within some of our projects, we have a social science aspect, but it is more around, say, community engagement to see what people think about drones for habitat assessment. That is quite different from drone deliveries. Just to clarify-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The witnesses are here today to discuss drone fast food delivery, not topography or anything like that.

Dr. Gerard Dooly:

May I just clarify something? At 65 m in height, the drone is at 57 dB. What the Deputy showed was a height of 15 m, so it is a significantly higher-decibel noise. It is not a quiet talk in the background.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Gannon.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. Have they done any disability assessment of how drones are experienced by a person with a sensory issue? I represent a number of areas, and one in particular, Drumcondra, has autism-friendly status. Have the witnesses done any disability assessment as regards sensory issues?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We have not, but I have met several families that have children with autism and engaged with them directly. I am not ignoring the issue at all, but I am not aware of any research in this space and the families I have met, including mothers of children who have autism, have embraced the service.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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That is the difficulty because if Mr. Healy tells me about families he has met, I have to tell him about families I have met. We are both operating without a research basis-----

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I accept that.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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-----and I do not want to do that, but last night I had a meeting in Drumcondra, where Manna is not even operating, yet there were 200 people there, predominantly older, and they were genuinely scared of the technology. There is a job of work to do if the fear can be alleviated - I accept that - but I am finding that very difficult. One of the things they are taking on as a community is to collect a number of eircodes and develop opt-outs. Does Manna respect community or individual opt-outs from houses?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We would do, yes. If the whole community does not want it, we would not bother flying them there. We have no short-term plans for Drumcondra either. I have heard a lot of questions and engaged with some local councillors in Drumcondra. We are well up for this conversation and we would love to meet the residents via a residents association or their representatives. We would be very happy to do that.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I will arrange that.

Has Manna done safety flight risk assessments with the IAA?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Have they been made public?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Sorry, but does the Deputy mean for the Drumcondra area?

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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No, just in general, for-----

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I do not think they are made public, but we have a licence issued by the IAA that is based on our safety.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It would be good to see the safety risk assessment. I think that could go some way towards alleviating some of the concerns. Is that-----

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I will undertake to work with IAA to see what we can make public in that regard, and I would be happy to do that.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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That would be very welcome.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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It would not deal with noise, though.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

No, it does not deal with noise. On the noise, in response to Deputy Coppinger, Europe has done a lot of work in this regard, and we are actively working with EASA on this. It is work in progress. I would be happy to follow up directly with the Deputy and send her some of the work that is ongoing on that. It is quite interesting.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Is Mr. Healy happy to see-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. I will allow a second round now because we have time. I think I can give maybe a minute and a half to each of the members, if everybody is in agreement. I will allow you back in, Deputy Coppinger. I call on Emer Currie, to be followed by Deputy Donnelly. They have a strict minute and a half each.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am coming back to Manna with more questions. How exactly does it handle the no-fly requests?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

People give us their eircodes and we block the perimeters of their properties so the drone would not fly over them.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Some of the residents have said to me that they might be blocked for a couple of weeks but then they are unblocked. Is that happening?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

No. We do not remove blocks on residences. Some residents have had blocks in since we started, for example around junction 6. As far as I am aware, we have never removed a block, and I do not see why we would.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Healy describe the system as to how that works?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Residents email us their eircodes. They usually email us with a complaint or a request and we ask for their eircode because our system is based on eircodes, and we just outline the perimeter of the house. We use Google Maps to find the perimeter of the house and we just block it all off. Then when the aircraft figures its route out, before it takes off, it just avoids that route always.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Healy talk again about what is captured with the camera whenever it is switched on when it is hovering above somebody's garden? Does that go into other people's gardens?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

It depends on the size of the garden. It is a 320-by-200-pixel image. It is very difficult to see anything. You are barely able to see if there is a person underneath, but that is what we use it for. Does it go into other people's gardens? From 15 m, yes, it would bleed into it a little.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Donnelly.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to get back to the CCTV issue because I think we have fully addressed the noise issue - not satisfactorily, but I think we have exhausted it here today without the proper regulations and guidelines that need to be in place. I made a point about CCTV and an incident to the people who were before the committee previously. I spoke to Manna directly when I went to see Manna about it. There is an opportunity and a fear among people about a done flying over the house. It is 15 m up, it drops, the CCTV is bleeding in and people are looking at that. Obviously, Manna's employees are looking at this situation. Are there protocols for doing its employment contracts that prohibits them in terms of the GDPR?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes, there are. It is pilot training. We have what is called a remote pilot, which is one of our staff in Glasnevin, who would be one single person who can see that camera footage for about ten seconds. The person is not able to record the screen from the software we have. We are fully GDPR compliant and we have been independently assessed on that basis, so nothing is recorded, there is no ability for our pilot to take a screenshot or anything like that, and it is part of the training for when we onboard a new pilot.

Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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On the no-fly requests, what number of no-fly requests does Mr. Healy have in Dublin 15 as a proportion of the total?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Twenty-five.

Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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On delivery size, how many customers does Manna deliver to?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

The area we deliver into is approximately 35 sq. km, with 44,000 eircodes.

Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Healy mentioned in his opening statement that noise reduction was an area that the research and development was focused on at present. What is the general timeframe for the next milestone with regard to the evolution of the technology?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Outside of the propellers, mass reduction is the next one - making the aircraft lighter. Reducing the size of the aircraft has a big impact on decibel levels. We will get it down from 57 dB to 53 dB, which is a big reduction, simply by removing 1 kg off the aircraft.

Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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What do the nuts and bolts of that mass reduction look like in terms of the research that Manna is doing?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I am sorry, but could the Deputy repeat that?

Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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What will the drone look like when the mass is reduced? Is it a different material?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes. There will be certain different materials, that is, moving from stainless steel leg brackets, for example, to aluminium leg brackets. It would be a change of material, but with some of those changes, we would need to get regulatory approval. It is not a fast process because safety is the number one priority. We would put any such changes through thousands of flights before we would put them into production. It will take us time.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I will take a step back. What I would like to know is where is the conversation being had about how much of the movement of goods that currently takes place on our roads is appropriate to move into our skies. When I visited the base, Mr. Healy showed me the map of all the journeys his company had done. If Manna had a competitor that wanted to compete with it in this field, for example, if Amazon decided to start doing deliveries with drones here or if An Post decided to provide a drone delivery service, we would suddenly have two, three or four different organisations using our skies. In fairness, it is not Manna's job to answer that question. It is a national question we have to ask.

In all of this, we are tied down in the details - the noise and planning details are important - but there has to be a space to ask the bigger question of how many drones in our skies are too much. I do not have the answer, but that conversation is not taking place anywhere. Does Mr. Healy know if it is? It has not come out of this conversation today. That is a gap that needs to be filled. Primarily, it is our job and the Government's as legislators.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I fully agree. U-space will provide the construct to implement whatever national policy decides. If we have a national framework, a policy around this prioritisation and rules, that can be implemented in U-space.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Just a moment. Apologies for those who may be watching online, but there is another technical issue with the power supply.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I again apologise to those online. We have had a number of technical glitches this morning, all linked to the power supply. We are back up and running again. I call Mr. Healy to make a 30-second answer to Deputy O'Gorman's question.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

There is not a conversation around what categories the airspace is used for but this should form the basis for the national framework or the national policies on unmanned systems. Once those regulations and rules have been set by the Government, it is the purpose of U-space to get those implemented. All users of the airspace will use U-space to obey whatever regulations come out around that.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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At present, Manna is the sole operator in Dublin 15. Can other operators come into that airspace to operate in the commercial drone delivery area?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

They could, if they had licences.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does Manna have to record the volume of its flight paths or deliveries or the times of day? Is there any onus on Manna to collect that information?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

We collect that information as a matter of course anyway. It is for internal use. We would have every flight, by time and date.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Healy.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few more questions for the University of Limerick. It is great that there is innovation and it is reaching out to other agencies, but what could a national laboratory look like in terms of pulling all this together? On my earlier point, while there is incredible stuff going on, are we laggards as a Government and a political institution in not being fully involved in funding these things and bankrolling them as other EU nations are?

Dr. Gerard Dooly:

I guess it is the same sort of answer as the last one. We are lacking a centre of excellence for these technologies. We offer drones for aerial, surface and underwater operations. There are centres of excellence in various other jurisdictions, including EU partner states but also the US and the UK. We do not really have that in Ireland and we are lacking a cohesive centre of excellence.

There is talk of a centre of excellence for offshore wind because there is a lot of change coming in that energy aspect.

On a centre of excellence in general for robotics, people who could work, for example, with the blue light organisations would help in advising the Government in terms of policy, rolling out demonstrations and helping when disaster response happens.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There is just myself then. Let us say I am living wherever and I have a concern. I want to contact Manna. How do I do that?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

The best way is go to our website.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Which I am on at present. Therefore, it is only through an email address. Is that the only option I have?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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If I am operating a crane in Dublin city centre, I am concerned about a Manna drone in my workspace, it is an urgent concern and I have a mobile phone, how do I contact Manna?

Mr. Bobby Healy:

If your crane is over a certain height, you have to register it, so we would see that automatically, but if you-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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So there is-----

Mr. Bobby Healy:

No. Our phone numbers-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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If I see an urgent issue, I cannot see your phone numbers on your website.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes. We do not have phone numbers on our website, so you would have to email us.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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In a real-time emergency involving a drone, there is no option-----

Mr. Bobby Healy:

No. For emergencies, we have a phone number, and that is registered with the IAA, so there are phone numbers you can call for our person in charge.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I understand. What is the phone number? I am talking about an unintended emergency in which one needs to be able to contact Manna.

Mr. Kevin Houston:

In that particular situation, prior to any flights, each day a survey is carried out.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I understand that.

Mr. Kevin Houston:

We pick it up from planning permissions but we also carry out a survey ourselves.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I understand that. If we have a real-time emergency and I need to contact Manna, how do I do that?

Mr. Kevin Houston:

The phone number would be through the IAA. The-----

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is a gap, and it is something to consider.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I agree with that, a Chathaoirligh. We will address that straight away.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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An emergency number is really important.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

Yes. It is a good point.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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What might not have happened already could potentially happen.

I call Deputy Ruth Coppinger.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The issue is that this is a massive change in technology and in people's lives. We all agree that road transport can create poor quality of life, inequality and so on. The question is whether we want to transfer that to our skies. The most powerful argument that has been made by a resident is to ask whether our skies will become as busy as our roads? From the previous session here, the IAA regulates the safety of the drone operation. The councils do not take any complaints about noise, so there is a massive gap and problem for residents who are impacted. It is not the only complaint but it is the main complaint. All they can do is send a complaint to a private company that is causing the noise, that is profiting and that is not accountable to people. I believe absolutely that Manna should not be allowed to operate in this framework where there is no accountability or transparency for residents.

One of the issues the Manna representatives talk about is the environment but they tend to talk about the last mile. Obviously, there is an environmental impact from producing drones, from warehousing and from single-use coffee cups, which is a big feature of Manna's business and other drone delivery businesses. That is not talked about at all.

The other issue is that Manna is teaming up with Deliveroo now, so it will take jobs away from Deliveroo riders, migrant workers, but that is never mentioned in the talk of job creation.

Mr. Bobby Healy:

I think we will follow up with the Deputy directly.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call the final speaker.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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My question is to Mr. Weir from the University of Limerick. I know we are talking about drones today but I refer to the maritime aspects. How does the University of Limerick marry maritime and air drones, and what can it do to benefit Ireland Inc.?

Mr. Anthony Weir:

As regards the marriage between aerial robotics and surface and subsea robotics, as a nation, we will see that when we look at not so much the commercial entities but the national entities: defence, forestry, agriculture, the Coast Guard. When we look at these entities, and primarily with the marine, the aerial aspect of this would be the inspection and the monitoring of offshore structures. The subsea aspect of this is the monitoring of our subsea structures. These subsea structures can be offshore power generation, offshore power conduits, subsea cables and subsea communication conduits. How do we actively monitor these and how can we actively and predictably monitor what is happening to these, be it malicious or just regular maintenance? That is where the marriage would come. The aerial drones would monitor what is happening above the water and the subsea drones would monitor what is happening within the water column and what is happening to our assets on the seabed, be they-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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All of that would be a lot cheaper than buying new naval vessels and investing millions - billions, potentially - in infrastructure for the Defence Forces.

Mr. Anthony Weir:

Absolutely, because the unmanned surface vehicles can accommodate the drones and the underwater drones, if you want to call them that. They are unmanned, so yes, absolutely.

Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members. Time management is always a challenge in these committee meetings, and I apologise if at times I cut you short or whatever else but I appreciate your patience in that regard and for keeping to the time allocated. I thank our witnesses in the second section: Mr. Bobby Healy, chief executive officer of Manna Air Delivery, supported by Mr. Kevin Houston, head of regulation; and, on behalf of UL, Professor Gerard Dooly, co-director of CRIS, and Mr. Anthony Weir, researcher in field robotics.

The meeting now stands adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on 16 July, when the committee will meet in public session with the IAA.