Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No apologies have been received. Today, we are having ministerial engagement regarding key priorities and legislation in the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport. This meeting has been convened with the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport, Deputy Patrick O’Donovan, and the Minister of State with responsibility for sport and postal policy, Deputy Charlie McConalogue, to discuss key priorities and legislation of the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport. It is the first time they are in front of the committee. They are very welcome and best wishes to them for their years ahead.

The committee has also given notice that it wishes to engage with the Minister and the Minister of State on the following: matters relating to governance and Department oversight of same internally in respect of bodies under its aegis; the revised scheme of the broadcasting amendment Bill, of which we are going through pre-legislative scrutiny at the moment; matters relating to the reappointment process for the director of the Arts Council; and matters relating to the review of the basic income for the arts scheme. There will probably be a diverse range of other issues that will come up as well.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy O’Donovan, the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue, and their officials to the meeting in committee room 1. As the Minister and Minister of State are present, it is not expected that officials will speak in public session, but we can be liberal enough in that if needs be. That is a matter for the Minister and Minister of State.

The format of today’s meeting is such that I will invite the Minister and Minister of State to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to five minutes. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the Minister and Minister of State are probably aware, the committee will publish these opening statements on its website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister, Deputy O’Donovan, to make his opening statement to the committee.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an choiste as an deis mo chuid cuspóirí a chur in iúl inniu mar Aire Cultúir, Cumarsáide agus Spóirt. I thank the Chairman for the good wishes he extended to both myself and the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue.

Culture, connectivity, creativity, the arts, access to information, and sport play a key role in the quality of life and well-being of every citizen of Ireland, both young and old. The overarching priority of the Department is to harness arts, media, communications, culture and sport to enhance our quality of life and to facilitate a growing population.

As Minister, it will be a key priority for me to support artists and the creative sectors. In this context, I have spoken before of the importance of the basic income for arts in supporting artists and in assisting them in dealing with precarious incomes. I have heard some first-hand testimonies of how the scheme has prevented talented people from leaving the sector for economic reasons. I recently extended the pilot to February 2026 to allow for further evaluation of the data submitted every six months by those participating in the scheme. The extension will give sufficient time to engage in stakeholder consultation and to evaluate the data that will provide the evidence base for the Government to make decisions on the next steps.

That is just one support. The funding which the Department provides the sector through the Arts Council, Screen Ireland and Culture Ireland all flows to support workers in the arts and creative sectors and to make Ireland a great place to live for its citizens. The Creative Ireland programme, delivered directly by the Department, partners with local authorities and many Government Departments and agencies in areas as diverse as climate change, education, children and health and through the shared island initiative to use the power of creativity to unlock initiatives and break down barriers in new and creative ways.

It will be important for me to progress the redevelopment of our national cultural institutions as key national assets. Noting that these are mainly based in Dublin, it is also important to me that we support investment in the physical infrastructure of cultural and arts venues in regional locations and ensure support for a vibrant local cultural life with high quality programming, whether that is from professional artists or local amateur dramatic societies, or through the amazing work that groups like Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann undertake up and down the country.

It is also important in an era when traditional media are under threat to support the Irish film and screen sector as well as broadcasters and local journalism. For instance, I launched a new scéal uplift for feature films and animated feature films on 22 May. This will benefit the Irish film sector and film industry, creative film workers and Irish cinemas, building on the success of the support already provided by section 481. I would also like to explore how we can accelerate the development of the gaming sector in Ireland.

I brought the revised general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill to Government in April this year, and I know that the committee is now considering this in pre-legislative scrutiny. The general scheme will improve transparency, accountability and value for money in RTÉ and TG4 and put in place a new statutory framework to support the provision of public service content by the wider media sector. I look forward to the outcome of pre-legislative scrutiny and to working together with the committee to progress the broadcasting (amendment) Bill to enactment.

Online safety for children is a Government priority and a top priority for me as Minister. It is essential that we make sure children do not see illegal, harmful, or inappropriate content while being able to safely avail of all the benefits of the online world. It is my view that robust age verification is essential for keeping children safe online. Last week, I met the main social media companies and reiterated this point to them. I am committed to working across government and with all stakeholders to ensure children and young people can be safe from harmful or illegal content online, in particular through robust age verification.

We are making progress. Coimisiún na Meán's online safety code sets out obligations for platforms to use age verification to prevent children seeing adult-only content and an coimisiún, along with the European Commission, has powers to address the risk of children seeing such content, but I think we need to do more. I am determined to make progress on this key issue and will work with other EU colleagues, including in the context of our Presidency of the EU next year, on effective and practical solutions that have regard to the rights of children, but that also protect them from harm.

Regarding communications, key priorities for me include completing the roll-out of the national broadband plan over the coming year and implementation of the digital connectivity strategy to ensure that all premises in the State have access to gigabit broadband by the end of 2028 with all populated areas covered by 5G no later than 2030. We must ensure the security and resilience of our communications and digital infrastructure in the face of increasing hazards, both from malicious attacks and from extreme weather events. I have been highly critical of the response of some of our service providers to the damage to communications infrastructure caused by Storm Éowyn. Notwithstanding the severity of that storm, it was unacceptable that some rural areas and customers were left for months without service. I have engaged with the regulator, ComReg, in this regard. I have written to individual operators seeking more detail on the actions that they have already taken since the storm and any remaining actions they intend to take before next winter.

My Department is also reviewing the statutory powers available to me, as Minister, and ComReg, relating to requirements for operators regarding gathering and sharing storm-related information; network integrity, including maintaining networks in a proper state; obligations regarding network restoration and related timeframes; and informing consumers about network and service restoration. I will be happy to keep the committee updated on these issues over the coming period. Another communications priority is the development of more subsea cables on new and diverse routes to improve Ireland's autonomy over its international connectivity, and allow full participation in Europe's connectivity ambitions.

The committee has also asked me to address issues regarding governance and the resignation of the director of the Arts Council. I will be happy to address any issues the committee wishes to raise, noting that there are personal issues involved and that I am awaiting the outcome of an expert advisory committee that I established to examine the culture and governance of the Arts Council. Nonetheless, I can assure the committee that good governance within my Department and in its role as parent Department to 17 State bodies is of fundamental importance, as is the protection of taxpayers' money by ensuring value for money at all times.

I will hand over to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue, to address the committee about sport and postal policy. It is safe to say that being from successful sporting counties in rural Ireland, which will be back, we are both hugely committed to investment in our local communities through supporting sport at every level and in every code, and in ensuring that Government delivers quality services locally, including through our local post office network.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. To let everyone know, the Minister is supporting Tipperary in the hurling this year.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Our footballers are still there as well.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for his good wishes. I look forward to working with the committee and thank it for the opportunity to be here to address priorities in the time ahead. The Government is committed to supporting our sporting ecosystem so that more people can participate, reap the benefits of sport and fulfil their potential, from grassroots right up to high performance level. In this regard, the Government has invested well over €1 billion in sports infrastructure and development in the country since 2018. It is my aim to increase participation in sport and ensure accessibility of sport for all. In this regard, working with the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, we look forward to working to continue to improve the rate of active sport participation among adults, which is now 49%, the highest it has ever been. The participation gap between men and women is now thankfully below 3%. This is something we want to see more progress on in the time ahead. We will continue to invest in sport, including through the implementation of our national sports policy and action plan, which runs until 2027, by working with Sport Ireland in supporting its initiatives.

The national sports policy committed the Government to doubling funding in sport, compared with 2018 levels, to more than €220 million by 2027. This target has been reached two years ahead of schedule, with budget 2025 having allocated over €230 million for sport, which was a €21 million increase on the 2024 allocation. Earlier this year, we announced Sport Ireland's 2025 core funding allocations to our national governing bodies for sport, as well as local sports partnerships and other sporting bodies. The figure of €31 million in core funding allocated is an increase of €13.5 million compared with 2018 when our sports policy was published. This increased investment will continue to assist in ensuring the long-term sustainability of our sporting organisations and will enable the sector to continue to deliver increased opportunities for people to participate in a wide variety of sports.

Regarding high-performance sport, we have allocated €27 million across Sport Ireland's high-performance programmes for this year, including €4.5 million in direct support for athletes through the carding scheme. This is in line with the Government's target of delivering €30 million per annum for high-performance sport by 2027. This increased funding for high-performance sport reflects the programme for Government commitment to our high performance strategy, which runs until 2032 and which provides the over-arching policy framework for the development of our high-performance system for the next two Olympiads in Los Angeles in 2028 and Brisbane in 2032.

We announced investment of €4 million this year into Sport Ireland's women in sport programme, which funds projects and initiatives across a wide range of sports and supports the Government's vision where women have an equal opportunity to achieve their full potential, while enjoying a lifelong involvement in sport. The women in sport funding programme has been in place since 2005, with over €30 million invested in that period to promote gender equality across sports. A total of €10 million has also been allocated to sport under the Dormant Accounts Fund for 2025. This funding will be released to successful applicants across two tranches during the second half of this year.

Despite recent progress, there is an enduring participation gap between those with and without disabilities. In line with the programme for Government, Sport Ireland recently appointed a disability in sport lead. The role has the potential to be transformational and the disability in sport lead will work with the national governing bodies, local sports partnerships and other sporting bodies to develop and promote the inclusion of people with disabilities in sport.

Regarding wider investment in sport, the Government has made available several forms of tax relief to promote investment in sport, most recently in the last Finance Act, including to allow for a transferable tax relief for donations to national governing bodies of sport for specific purposes, including investment in equipment and high-performance programmes. Major international sports events can play a key role in increasing sporting participation, encourage domestic and international tourism, and also promote Ireland as a destination for education and business opportunities. They present a good opportunity to showcase Ireland and our world-class tourism and sports offering to Europe and the world.

The Government continues to support the hosting of major sports events in Ireland and to explore further hosting opportunities. This is evidenced by the support being provided for events such as: the US college football classic; the UEFA Europa League final in Dublin last year; the first-ever American national football league regular season game at Croke Park in September this year; the Ryder Cup coming to Limerick in 2027; the cohosting of the UEFA Euro 2028 football championships with the UK; and as I mentioned, the proposed cohosting of the 2030 T20 Cricket World Cup with the UK.

The 2024 Government policy and strategy framework for the hosting of major international sporting events is the first of its kind in Ireland and fulfils a commitment under the previous programme for Government. The policy provides a framework as to how Government should support major international sporting events. It will be appreciated that bidding processes for major sports events can be very complex, and that confidential commercial information and non-disclosure agreements are key features of such processes.

Turning to postal policy, it is a priority for us that An Post harnesses the opportunities presented by ecommerce and the digital economy, and delivers a sustainable nationwide post office network by offering a range of services. The Government recognises the special role that An Post and the post office network play in our lives, providing invaluable support for some of the most vulnerable in our society through the provision of social welfare payments, free postage to care homes and many other valuable services. I also recognise that there are challenges for the network, including uncertainty over global trade, the continuing decline in mail volumes and growth of digitalisation.

The Government is committed to supporting Ireland’s post office network and we are currently providing An Post with €10 million per annum over a three-year fixed term to the end of this year. An Post disburses this funding across the post office network, with all contractor post offices benefiting from the Government funding with the objective of securing the stability of the network. Over €23 million has been claimed under this to date.

The current programme for Government also recognises the need to support Ireland’s post office network, committing to providing continued funding to aid its sustainability and enhance the value the network brings to local communities. My Department is working with Government colleagues to secure future funding in line with this commitment.

Is cúis mhór áthais dúinn deis a fháil labhairt leis an gcoiste inniu.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Ministers for their comprehensive statements.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the sports men and women, teachers, coaches, creative artists and other workers across the country who make our lives so much better by sharing their imagination and energy with us. We are a different country because of that and in many ways that is what sets us apart. There are a huge range of issues in the Department. We are jumping from RTÉ to post offices to arts, etc. I will not get a chance to ask all the questions I would like.

I would like to zero in on the basic income for artists scheme and the challenges of rolling out its successor scheme. The initial scheme was a pilot, which was due to end in August. The Minister has announced that another version of that will come. When will we see the make-up of that? Will it just be another pilot of 2,000 based on the numbers that were applied in the first instance? Will it be changed in terms of the diversity and the make-up of those? Will the basic income awards to be granted be about the same?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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All the support that is being given to the basic income for the arts scheme is really appreciated. When trying to get cross-government consensus on a particular scheme, it is heartening to see the number of Deputies and Senators who have given their support to this and for good reason. This scheme was initiated to address the precarious nature of income for people who are trying to derive an income from the arts. It was clearly established early on that by virtue of the precarious nature, many people were either leaving it or certainly not able to maintain a decent quality of life for themselves. As the Deputy knows, the pilot was for three years and is due to end in August of this year. I wanted to continue the pilot until February to give me a chance to get qualitative and quantitative research and reporting that I can use to form part of my budgetary discussions with the Department of public expenditure and reform and the Department of Finance.

As he knows, 2,000 people are on the scheme at the moment at a cost of €35 million annually or €105 million over the three years. I do not have any hard and fast ideas as to what a successor scheme might look like. However, it is my priority to get a successor scheme. I have met representatives of the National Campaign for the Arts and they have enunciated their support, which is also welcome. Various different people will have different views as to how to churn over a new group of people to make sure that it is fair and that everybody gets a bite at it. For instance, if we introduce a new scheme after the budget which I hope we are in a position to do, how can we make sure it is not the same group of people in saecula saeculorum?

Internally, departmental officials have done a good bit of work on this. The quantitative and qualitative report that is available to us clearly shows that when the financial stress, fear and anxiety are removed, we got a better level of output. Recently at the EU Council of the culture ministers, this came up as a live subject with a number of other ministers who would love to be in a position to introduce a similar process in their states but unfortunately are not able to do so due to budgetary constraints.

I am open to suggestions that individual members of the committee might have. I will also engage with the National Campaign for the Arts. It gives me a bit of time because the cut-off date is February. I still have some work to do on the budget with the Secretary General and the assistant secretary with responsibility for the arts to convince the Department of public expenditure and reform to retain the scheme, and that it be not taken as a pilot but otherwise be built into the base. When I have that done, I will have sufficient time to design a replacement on which I will seek input from the committee.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is talking about a group rather than artists in general, meaning that it will be something similar to another 2,000 and not a payment across the board.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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There are pros and cons to the existing scheme. Many people might feel they are outside the tent. We need to ensure we are fair. We also need to ensure that the duration that somebody is inside the tent is also fair so that there is a possibility for upcoming artists, young people who are emerging at the moment, to get into a new scheme. We are not there yet. At the moment we are trying to get the money and that will form part of the budgetary discussions. Members all have access to-----

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister cannot figure out what money is required until he figures out how many people are involved. If it is 2,000, it is something similar.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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If I wanted to continue the existing scheme, it would be €35 million a year at the rate it is paid. If we want to be more ambitious, those are discussions we will have with the Department of public expenditure and reform over the summer.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The question is whether it is for artists in general. If it is for artists in general, it would be a much bigger and that would be ambitious. Will it just be 2,000 people or a figure close to that?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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We will need to work with the Department of public expenditure and reform bearing in mind what people typically get on social protection, which was one of the figures used when this scheme was originally identified at €325. We will need to agree a figure for the base, assuming I get a figure in the base and work backwards from that. In working backwards from that, I will consult with the Deputy, other committee members, parties and groupings as to what they believe is fair. Many people would say to me, "Demonstrate to me that in a new scheme this will be fair."

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I welcome both Ministers. The Department's portfolio covers sport and culture. It encompasses everything that is good about Ireland in terms of volunteers and what they are doing. Last night, we had a very long committee meeting with some departmental officials. I left with many questions even after getting some very thorough answers as to how €5.3 million was wasted by the Arts Council and most of the people involved in that process are still sitting there.

I have a few questions for the Minister.

I read that the objective of arts funding is to generate high-quality experiences for the public to engage with and a programme to develop talent and provide services that support the work of artists. With this in mind, will the Minister explain why organisations such as Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann and talented people such as comedians are not included? To me, the profession of the comedian, who gets up on stage, is one of the most difficult out there. It is a wonderful art. Are there any other entertainers - I call them artists - who are not getting the support? I will let the Minister answer that question first.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I saw some of the meeting last night. I was down in Wicklow meeting representatives of some of the film studios so I did not get a chance to see all of it. I saw the previous two meetings as well. The questions put yesterday were answered comprehensively, from what I saw. I have commissioned Professor Niamh Brennan to undertake a deep dive into the governance and culture in the Arts Council. The Secretary General referred to that yesterday and the reasons behind my decision to do it. Regarding the question the Deputy asked about who is in and who is about, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann receives of the order of €2.5 million directly from the Department. I met with the-----

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, that was not the question, which was about funding from the Arts Council.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I met with the chairman of the Arts Council the week before last and I brought up the very issue of ensuring, in return for the €141 million that is voted from the Dáil to my Department and overseen by the committee through the Estimates and the Revised Estimate, no one is left outside the tent. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí ÉIreann should not need a separate relationship with the Department in order to make sure events such as Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann, Fleadh na Mumhan and Fleadh Cheoil Luimnigh can be sustained. We have a body responsible for the expenditure of public moneys for the development of the arts and that is what it should do. It should not exclude anyone, including, for instance, country music or comedy. I have just come into the Department but I have already alerted the chairman of the Arts Council that when Niamh Brennan's report is concluded, which I hope will be towards the end of the year, it will be my ambition to look at what modern Ireland's sense of culture and the arts is, who feels excluded and who needs to be included.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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With that in mind, I am very interested in what Professor Brennan's remit is. Obviously, she and I are not related. Is it a root-and-branch review? Based on the conversations last night and on what the Minister just said, that is what the arts need. The arts are such a part of our culture but not everybody is being covered. There will be 1 million people at the fleadh cheoil in Wexford. If that is not ingrained in our culture and society, what is?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I was very clear at the time we set up the investigation led by Professor Brennan that the remit would be to cover governance of the Arts Council and also culture. This is in many ways similar to the RTÉ examination. We will take the recommendations Professor Brennan makes and implement them.

On the point the Deputy raised about people who feel excluded, that was a relevant issue before I ever became the Minister. It was raised with me in my dealings with people in my constituency and it is an area that we are going to have modernise. Ireland is a totally different place now from what it was 20 years ago, let alone 70 years ago. Our culture has changed. The new Irish communities have to be reflected. The Arts Council will have to modernise and adapt to the cultural and artistic needs of Ireland going forward.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. I am conscious of time and I want to bring in the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Sports funding is an incredible incentive. It takes kids off the street corners as per the motto, "Join clubs not gangs". However, from my brief experience in politics, I fear some areas have been totally ignored. Taking my area of Arklow as an example, it does not have a town park and in terms of the arts, it does not have a theatre. There are 16,000 people in the town. Are there some criteria that could be included to try to support those who have got little or no support in the past?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Sports infrastructure in this country has been transformed in the past generation and bears no resemblance to what it was 30 or 40 years ago. It is incrementally improving at a significant rate but there are significant gaps across different sports. Due to the success we are seeing in participation at underage level but also in lifelong participation and equality of representation, there is pressure on facilities in almost all existing clubs. In the next sports capital round, which we intend launching next spring, the objective will be to try to make sure advance consideration is given to where the gaps are most acute. We will also have to continue to support as many clubs as possible that are under pressure regarding their existing facilities. The Deputy has been advocating for Arklow in particular, where there may be gaps. We will consider and review the criteria in advance of launching the new round.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have no doubt the issue is not only in Arklow. It is replicated around the country. There are small patches that are not being covered because they do not have a voice.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na hAirí. I welcome the Ministers. I will make one quick point before I focus on my questions. Regarding the Arts Council, my experience over the last number of years is that, under Maureen Kennelly's stewardship, it has brought a lot of inclusivity. I have attended an awful lot of events and have seen funding from the Arts Council that has brought that inclusivity, particularly for minority groups, over those years. We may think it is a lot of money but it is not. We underfund the arts generally. The arts need continued uplift.

I will focus on the burgeoning animation sector, which has grown significantly in recent years thanks, in no small part, to support from Government. Much of it is located in my home town of Kilkenny, with Cartoon Saloon and Lighthouse Studios. At peak production, with film and TV productions, up to 800 people from all over the world can be working in Kilkenny. It is a really important sector and it is critically important that the Department continue to support it, notwithstanding the elements that need to be introduced in the broadcasting Bill.

The issues around public broadcasting and Irish content and productions are significant. One area that has been a challenge over the years is section 481. It is really important. While this is an issue for the Department of Finance, section 481 has been an important incentive for audiovisual production in Ireland and it also encourages policies that promote regional development. Including the introduction of regional development uplift ensures creative industries outside Dublin and Wicklow benefit from national supports, and I know the Minister was in Wicklow yesterday. It is also important that the Minister give a commitment to extending the enhanced section 481 credit for TV productions that meet a higher cultural standard.

On general issues, I highlight the need for a commitment to minimum annual spending on Irish-produced films, documentaries and animated works and a formal animation policy from the Department that would recognise the value of Irish animation and the cultural contribution it gives, not just to the State but internationally as well.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Noonan. I agree entirely with everything he said. I recently had cause to be in Los Angeles on a trade mission led by Screen Ireland where it was abundantly clear to me that Ireland - and Kilkenny - is highly regarded in animation. At the opening of the Ireland presence in Osaka, the Senator will be glad to know Cartoon Saloon was very much to the fore. Oona, Ireland’s mascot for Expo 2025 in Osaka, was developed by Cartoon Saloon so there was a very prominent place for the studio.

Regarding animation and further work in this area, it is my intention to look at the board of Screen Ireland in the not-too-distant future. The board of Screen Ireland is too small, to be frank.

It will require a legislative change, and I will be back to the committee on this. Animation and gaming will form part of a reconstituted board, giving advice to the people the Senator is after seeing. There is quite an overlap – it became very clear to me when I was in the United States – between animation and gaming. Gaming is a gigantic industry. Trillions of dollars are now being spent on an annual basis. For animators in Ireland coming out, highly skilled and highly professional in their own right, there is a great opportunity for them. The policy platform around gaming will be led by our Department. We need a vehicle then to be able to deliver it. That will be Screen Ireland, and Screen Ireland is up for it. As late as yesterday its representatives were with me in Wicklow, in Ashford and Ardmore. The pipeline is strong.

Section 481 is very important. There was recently the scéal uplift, which is an additional uplift on section 481 for productions under €20 million. We have also seen European Commission approval for unscripted. Unscripted has enormous potential. I saw it myself in Limerick, where a television show comes in from the United States of America and it brings in everything. It brings in the contestants. The sets and everything are built locally. The series is filmed in front of a live audience and broadcast to a global audience.

We have had many wins in the recent past. There was a previous regional uplift for five years. It probably came at a difficult time, with Covid and everything else, and the industry went into mothballs. I note discussions with the Department of public expenditure and reform. Certain elements of spending for the arts, film, cinema, sport and communications are on our radar. One of the big tax issues for the budget will be section 481 – the consolidation of it and, if possible, the expansion of it.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I have a few seconds left. On the national museums, I ask about the ambition in terms of capital investment in our physical museum spaces but also – I mentioned this at a meeting the Minister had with the committee a number of weeks ago – the repository in Swords, where much of the national collection from the National Monuments Service, national museums, the OPW and others is stored. If anyone has ever seen it, it is like the end of an Indiana Jones movie. A very special collection is there. It is critically important that we invest in a state-of-the-art facility to house this important national collection. I ask the Minister’s thoughts on that.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Senator. I have met with the National Museum a couple times in the recent past. There is acceptance that there is a need for a permanent solution for the storage of its materials. There are artifacts of national, international and global significance. It needs a space in which it can work. It is engaged with the OPW. It will form part of the national development plan going forward. My predecessor did much work to make sure there was sufficient capital headroom for the national cultural institutions. This is one of the issues that has to be grasped. We will work the museum and the Office of Public Works to see how we can arrive at a permanent solution.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will start in a positive sense by acknowledging the commitment of the Government, Minister and Minister of State to the arts and sport. I am happy with what the Minister has been saying about the basic income for artists. He is on the record saying it is a top priority. The Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue, outlined the very significant increase in sports capital, and we need another round of the LSSIF. I also note to the commitment to the high-performance unit. I wish to talk about the development of an arts capital programme. If we get a second round of questioning, I will come to those.

I will focus on a number of specific areas. The Minister, Deputy O’Donovan, took a decision recently with regard to the director of the Arts Council to not renew her contract for a five-year period. I think he is on the record saying that he felt it was in the best interest of the Arts Council and the artistic community, if I am correct. When his Secretary General was before our committee, he indicated that was entirely the Minister’s decision and that he, as Minister, took that decision on his own. Is that correct?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for the question. The issue with regard to the director of the Arts Council arose by virtue of the fact that her term had come to an end. We are in the middle of an investigation, as I said a while ago. We already had an internal investigation that was concluded by the Department prior to me becoming Minister. It outlined the specifics around the now ill-fated ICT programme, which lost almost €7 million of taxpayers’ money. I had a decision to make around the continuance of the director’s contract. I made the decision based on the fact that Niamh Brennan’s report will probably be concluded around the back end of this year, hopefully. I made a decision that it is appropriate and proportionate, rather than having somebody working out of contract, which was going to be the situation if I did not address it. Given the issues with regard to governance, oversight and everything else that have been expanded on in this committee, I would have been in a far different series of questions had I allowed the former director to work without a contract. I took the decision, having consulted with the senior officials in my Department, that the contract should run up to and including the time that Niamh Brennan’s report would be concluded. We also ran that decision past the Department of public expenditure and reform, and it was said that was proportionate.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister indicated he did consult with-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I did, yes.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----his officials. I appreciate there is always a question about whether his officials advise him or not. We do not have the outcome of the Niamh Brennan report. If the Niamh Brennan report finds that there are failings in the Department, does the Minister think there should be heads rolling in his Department?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The difference is that I was faced with a situation where a person was out of contract. I cannot have a situation where an agency that answers to our Department has a director-CEO out of contract. We had to make a decision.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I also make the point that it is unprecedented that a second five-year term would not have been offered. As was indicated when the Arts Council was here before us, the board of the Arts Council – and the Minister could say they would say that – expressed confidence. It seems to be on the basis of this single incident that the Minister took the decision not to renew. Let us be clear. He took this decision and he consulted but he did not take advice from people within the arts community or officials in his Department; it was the Minister’s decision.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I did take advice but, ultimately, the Ministers and Secretaries Act and the Constitution of Ireland make it very clear, as the Chairman will note, what the role of a Cabinet Minister is. You cannot have a CEO of a State agency out of contract, so I had a decision to make. While I do not have the Niamh Brennan report concluded, I do have an internal report concluded with regard to what the Secretary General carried out before I became Minister, which was presented to me when I became Minister. Not to lose sight of the severity of the issue - the Deputy is right that it is unprecedented – it is unprecedented that almost €7 million has been expended on something that we have nothing to show for.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister concerned about the fact that his Department essentially was not keeping a watching brief on what was going on? We heard last night about how the costs went from €2.8 million in 2018 to nearly €7 million.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I listened to much of what was said last night. I do not want to pre-empt the outcome of Niamh Brennan’s report because, ultimately, Niamh Brennan will look at this in a far greater level of detail than I will be able to in an hour and a half before the committee. All of this has come to light since I became Minister. I have dealt with this in the best interests of the taxpayer since I became Minister. My motivation is to make sure that the governance, oversight and responsibilities of the Arts Council and the Department are fit for purpose in the spending of moneys that are voted by Dáil Éireann to them. With regard to the Department, there is an IPA examination already up and running. I also commissioned that. Any recommendations the IPA seeks to bring to my attention when it is concluded, I will do. The basic and fundamental point here is that we had a CEO-director who was out of contract. I ask this question kind of rhetorically. Based on what I knew, the amount of money expended and the fact that this project was not going to be delivered, what was I to do?

Was I to renew for five years, in which case I am sure Deputy Byrne would have something entirely different to say to me today, or was I to take a proportionate and reasonable position, which was to renew for a period of time that would bring the person up to the end of Niamh Brennan's report? At that time there would have been nothing stopping the outgoing director applying for a position if that position were advertised.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials for being here. I will focus, if I may, on the brief of the Minister. I have several questions I want to ask today. The committee is conducting pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill. This Bill sets out, as the Minister has put it, to improve transparency, accountability and value for money in RTÉ and TG4, and to put in place a new statutory framework to support the provision of public service content. In recent weeks, in my discussions when the director general of RTÉ was before the committee, I asked whether it is now opportune, in light of our pre-legislative scrutiny, to conduct a proper public service audit to enable us to determine what we want from public service broadcasters and how we measure output. I have raised concerns about a lack of diversity in RTÉ, particularly in the way various cultural, political and social issues are covered. I believe it is certainly the case that socially progressive points of view tend to dominate, almost to the exclusion of more socially conservative views. I may be right or wrong on this but I know there is considerable public disquiet about a lack of balance generally on some issues in RTÉ. There is a belief that NGOs, or some NGOs, have perhaps too much influence over the content of public service broadcasting. I note the media and broadcasting division of the Department talks about a robust, effective and appropriately resourced framework for online safety but how about one for measuring public service broadcast content?

I was intrigued when I suggested to the director general that there should be some kind of audit for diversity, that he said it might be redolent of North Korea. The last time I checked in North Korea, they check to make sure there is not diversity. They check for uniformity. What I am asking for is some kind of audit that would check to see whether there is sufficient genuine diversity of outlook so that what is presented to the public is appropriately representative of Ireland in all its diversity. Is there space, and is it time, for a public service audit of the kind I am raising? Can this be achieved by the Department in the context of the Bill or otherwise?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Mullen. It is not that long ago since I was a backbencher in government that, in the words of a former monarch, I was the cause of no amount of anni horribiles. I was probably one of its greatest critics. The Cathaoirleach was Minister at the time and he will remember it. We might all come from different viewpoints but I do not think what Senator Mullen is saying is unreasonable. Last week I was castigated in the Dáil by a member of the Opposition who wanted to tear down the television licence and was trying to start a campaign to get nobody to pay it. However, every time I turn on RTÉ the same fellow is on it. If there was to be an equality test on people's percentages in the last general election, the Government parties and certainly the Labour Party, the Social Democrats and Sinn Féin would find it very unfair. Some people seem to command a huge amount of airtime. This being said, I would not possibly like to cut across the editorial independence of RTÉ in my role as Minister for communications. I am just making a personal observation that every time I turn on the radio the same group of people seem to be always on it. Senator Mullen makes an interesting point, and this is where an audience council probably needs to be looked at. I would welcome suggestions from the committee on this. At the end of the day, how do we deem the output as being reflective of Ireland in 2025 and not reflective of Ireland of 1945? This is a very reasonable request. If the committee wants to flesh out a suggestion in its pre-legislative scrutiny, I will certainly look at it.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for this. I was hoping it would not be a case of poacher turned gamekeeper when was giving his response. An audience council might not go far enough. Perhaps the likes of the BBC could be looked at. There are models for a more searching audit. I do not think it necessarily entails interference with editorial independence to require there would be a strict measurement attempted on diversity. I want to make this point.

There is increasing concern among the public, and parents in particular, about what children see online. I have asked the Minister and I am aware of the role of Coimisiún na Meán in regulating in this area. I am concerned about the need for strict age verification to be imposed as a matter of law in this country on purveyors of online pornography, regardless of whether those purveyors have their EU headquarters based in Ireland, elsewhere in the EU or outside the EU. The French Government has been making moves to regulate online porn providers who are not located in France and are engaging with the Commission on this area. I want to ask the Minister straight up whether in the lifetime of this Government he will commit to bringing around a situation whereby porn available online in this country involves strict age verification to ensure young people are not harmed.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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As and from 21 July, part B of the online safety code from Coimisiún na Meán comes into effect. This has specific obligations on preventing the uploading and sharing of harmful content and services, cyberbullying and many other things. I have requested to meet the French and Danish ministers on this. France has made very strong and robust utterances recently. Denmark will have the Presidency before us and I would like to be running in sequence. I am the father of three young children. Most of their contemporaries are watching a lot of material online. We want to make sure it is as safe as possible and we want a situation whereby online verification is the norm, whether this is something we have to do individually as a State or collectively as the European Union. I would prefer the option of doing it with the European Union because, as Senator Mullen said, a number of them are based in Ireland, which I met last week and the week before, and a number are not. I have already said, and I have said it to the Secretary General in the Department, that as far as our Presidency of the European Council of Ministers goes, the theme for the Department will be the protection of the child online. This will be the overriding principle for what we do in terms of formal and informal meetings and we have started this work.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank the Minister.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and Minister of State to the committee. The Minister spoke a number of times about the waste of €7 million of taxpayers' money and trying to account for it and holding people to account. Certainly the Arts Council had a huge role of responsibility in this. In terms of the €7 million, quite a bit of it was spent on two companies in particular, namely, Ergo and Codec. Ergo received €2.1 million and Codec received €1.9 million. When we go through the fine print, much of this seems to have been spent on quality assurance, testing of systems and maintenance support. Almost €1 million of the €1.2 million given to Ergo was spent on this. There is no IT system, so what quality assurance or what analysis was it doing on a system that did not exist? Why was the Arts Council not asking questions about this?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The full breakdown of amounts of money spent on the business transformation programme is available in the back of the report done by the Secretary General. Ergo as a programme manager received sums of €393,000, €621,000, €163,000, €231,000, €128,000 and €558,000. Codec received €1,967,278. These figures have been circulated to members by way of the report done by the Secretary General. Obviously this will form part of what I have asked Professor Brennan to look at, in terms of where the money went and what we got for it. I know that last night the committee was examining the legal costs. Have we bottomed out the cost of this? I cannot say for definite that we have, to be quite honest about it. I do not know whether there will be other costs associated with it.

One of the options being pursued is the possibility of an off-the-shelf model. Why an off-the-shelf model was not pursued from day one I do not know. This convoluted and complicated one was the one that was proffered by the Arts Council and it has, as the Senator quite rightly says, cost the taxpayer almost €7 million. There is a suggestion another €1.5 million might buy us an off-the-shelf scheme, but I am not convinced of that.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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It seems amazing that the Minister is still not convinced, even with all the conversations with the Arts Council, that this is even the end of it. The council has lost so much credibility that the Minister and the Department are still nervous about saying they are sure. I assume that last week the Minister found out at the same time as the Department the legal bill was double what the council said it was in the committee two weeks ago. The Minister has been very critical, or very outspoken is I suppose a better way to put it, about the governance and management of the Arts Council. When he heard that bill had doubled from €60,000 to €120,000 did that reaffirm his view of the governance of the council?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The Arts Council notified the Department on 26 June by phone and confirmed in writing on 27 June that legal redress costs referenced at the committees covered payments and did not include outstanding work in progress to 30 May. That is where the €120,000 came from. That should have been corrected for the committee. It was by the officials from the Department. It was actually 50% of the cost. Is there more there? That is something we have to bottom out on. It also did not include the VAT figure, which brought it up higher.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Was the Minister surprised the council did not include the VAT figure?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I was notified about this on my way home from Áras an Uachtaráin by the Secretary General after receiving my seal of office. Pretty much every day since then has been dominated by this issue within the Department and how we were going to address it, rebuild confidence and show the artists who are receiving the €141 million we are not in any way going to go after them. This is not about punishing a whole community for a total waste of public money.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister almost feel he has to drag the information out of the council? A number of colleagues here have spoken about simple accounting things within the Arts Council and you would think that when you were talking about a figure you would include VAT. There is the fact that had to be dragged out of the council representatives to correct the record from two weeks ago and we see all the expenditure over the last few years. None of this would have come out without the Minister intervening at the start. It is very hard to have confidence in the council.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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One of the first things I wanted to do was engage with the council itself and that is why I met the chair and the former director as soon as possible after being appointed. That is why I brought the accounts to the Government as soon as I could, which had not been done, and that is why I initiated a complete governance and culture deep-dive, for want of a better word, into the Arts Council, because this was a phenomenal amount of money. Last week I allocated €500,000-odd for funding for grassroots music venues. I could do an awful lot of grassroots music venues for €7 million and that is the bottom line here.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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A bit like the €140 million.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Is the Arts Council going to be punished for this? The answer is "No". I am not going to go after the moneys that go into the council, but I am going to work with the Department officials and with the Arts Council through the chair to ensure the systems, governance, oversight, management and operation of it are transformed into a fit-for-purpose 2025 entity.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I have a final question. The Department officials confirmed yesterday they have written to the Data Protection Commission about a significant breach of data. I assume the Minister is aware of it and supports the Department in that. What is his personal view of a breach by a former employee that happened very recently? How serious does he think it is that someone would do this?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I became aware of this when I spoke to the Secretary General and the assistant secretary last week. Obviously this matter is under live investigation so I do not think it would be fair or prudent for me to comment on something like that. It probably will wind up with the Data Protection Commissioner.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for coming in here again. I am pretty certain I have seen more of them than I have of my family in recent weeks, but it is extremely important we talk about the funding of the arts. Many artists really appreciate the effort that has been put in, the widespread funding and especially the basic income.

It is good news the pilot funding for that has been extended. I have a couple of quick questions to clarify matters based on something Deputy Ó Snodaigh said. It is extended to the six months and comes again in February. Will those who are existing recipients be excluded from receiving funding in future and what will happen to them? They would face a very uncertain future if they are in the middle of projects. Will there be some sort of scheme for them if they are excluded from the new scheme, whatever form it takes?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. As she will appreciate, we are at the very early stages of budget 2026 at the moment. As I said to Deputy Ó Snodaigh a while ago my overriding priority here is to get the money element of it sorted and I will deal with the design and implementation of it after that. It would not be appropriate for me to start designing a scheme in an Oireachtas committee in the absence of a budget line. Once I have a budget line I will deal with that. It will become clear in the budget what I have got. I have no problem engaging with members of the committee either individually or collectively on what they feel is best and appropriate. I am sure the National Campaign for the Arts will have views on this as well, but at the moment my sole focus is on the budget and how much money we are going to get.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Would there be an opportunity to expand it though? Would the scheme be taking in more? Could some still be retained or are we going to revert to the 2,000 with some falling aside? This would make for a very uncertain future for them.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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At the risk of repeating myself, I cannot design a scheme I do not have money for. Once I have money I will be able to give firmer indication as to the amount, the number of people, the rates, the eligibility and everything like that, but at the moment I do not have line of sight on a funding line and until I do we will work forward on that basis.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, we will stick with the funding then, because we all know what the large-scale sports infrastructure fund has done for sport. It has been absolutely transformational for many sectors. I am proposing the establishment of a large-scale cultural infrastructural fund. This would support large-scale culture projects with grants perhaps ranging from €1 million to €30 million. I look to my home town of Drogheda where there is a thriving arts community despite their having a very small, almost unfit for purpose, space. They are looking for capital funding for a new arts centre. Is that something that is being discussed as being looked at?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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It is. I am sure the Chairman and all the members, as well the Minister of State and I, would be parochial with regard to this. There is no arts installation, for instance, between Limerick and Tralee. While there are some fabulous national cultural institutions we are investing very heavily in, like the archives, the library, the National Museum and the Crawford in Cork, we have in the programme for Government a commitment for a small-scale arts capital scheme. We are looking at animating that at the moment with the Department of public expenditure and reform as part of our budgetary discussions. I hope we will achieve a lot over the lifetime of this Government and my term as the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport. On the work we have done in the Department with regard to sport, I am a former Minister of State with responsibility for sport as well as being a constituency TD and I know exactly the impact that has because it takes an awful lot of the load-bearing off volunteers and places it on the shoulders of the Exchequer, which is only right, especially with the development of community-based facilities. We are going to look to do something similar for the arts.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Given it is in the programme for Government, I hope there is a timeline for that and not just a possibility of it happening in the lifetime of the Government.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and again all that will be resource-dependent and depend on discussion between me and the Minister, Deputy Chambers. Local authorities up to now have been shouldering quite a lot of the burden of the physical infrastructure for the performing, visual and creative arts around the country, whether it is small galleries or small theatre spaces.

It is the local authorities that have been running them, or have approached the Department on a case-by-case basis and said they have a good site, a good story, a business case and have stress-tested numbers. They have asked us to have a look. We have done that in the past on a case-by-case basis, and we will continue to do it. There is no reason not to do it. We also, though, want to have something that is stand-alone and not the large-scale schemes and something that will cover, for instance, lights, sound, chairs, curtains, stages - the small, sports capital-like element of the arts capital funding. We want to initiate that and get it up and running as soon as possible.

We do need performance spaces for the next generation of people who are ultimately going to take to the stage in the Abbey or be on our screens in a Netflix or cinema production and the best place to do that is in their own parish. Going back to one of the things already said - and I do not know which of the members said it, but it might have been Deputy Brennan - I should have mentioned the issue of small drama groups across the country. Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is outside the remit of the Arts Council. Country music feels it does not get enough. Small, rural and urban amateur drama societies feel they could do with getting a look in too. It cannot all fall back on the Department. With the chair and a new director or an acting-up director of the Arts Council, this is why we will need to have a fairly deep discussion around inclusivity, which Senator Noonan referred to.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister did mention the local authorities shouldering much of the burden. Louth County Council is still shouldering a debt of €1.3 million from the very successful fleadh we had in 2028-2029. It brought 750,000 people and a great deal of revenue. We are unlikely to get the fleadh again because of that debt, so should-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am sorry for interrupting, but did the Deputy say 2028-2029? Money was lost even before it happened.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry; it was 2018-2019.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I presume it was 2018-2019.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, exactly. We are unlikely to get an opportunity again because of this debt. Is this something the local authorities should be shouldering?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes, absolutely. At the end of the day - and it is on in Wexford this year, and it was there last year too - local commercial activity, be it restaurants, hotels, bed-and-breakfasts or camp sites, does exceptionally well. Deputy Brennan referred to approximately 600,000 people being in Wexford town. Deputy Malcolm Byrne will know this too. Wexford has seen a boom in the number of people going there. The ratepayers in County Wexford have benefited, then, as have the ratepayers in County Louth. It is only right that the local authority would invest in the ratepayers. Ratepayers often ask what they get for paying their rates. If they get 600,000 people into their town with their ability to buy runners or a meal or to stay in a hotel, that is surely a good thing.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Senator Ní Chuilinn.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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It is good to see the Minister again. I want to pick up on something quite concerning he said a minute ago. He said he does not know if we have bottomed out. He is the Minister in a time of crisis for the Arts Council, so I wish to ask him a direct question. Have the Arts Council and its board lost the trust of the Minister?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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This is extremely important. When I say I do not know whether we have bottomed out, I will not know that until Professor Niamh Brennan's report is finished. I think it would be a bit foolhardy of me to say that everything is as it is now and we have full transparency and all the facts. I thought last week that the legal bill was €60,000-----

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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We all did.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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-----when it was €119,000. If I were to tell the Senator now that we have bottomed out, and then something else comes up in Professor Brennan's report, would I not then look like an awful eejit?

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The reality is the chair of the Arts Council has a job to do now. I met her in the last fortnight, along with the senior officials in my Department. There is the matter of morale in the Arts Council and the arts community too, which has undoubtedly been badly impacted by these events. We are going to try to use the summer, as much as we can, to reinvigorate morale and show the arts community its relationship with the Government and the €141 million is not in any way going to be impacted by this situation.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I think the Minister should know if we have bottomed out because he is the Minister. At this point, the Arts Council is under pressure and in a time of crisis. It should have provided full disclosure and the Minster should have every piece of information in front of him that he needs. Just for the sake of the record, I think the Minister should know and should be informed as to whether we are at the bottom of the road.

Last night, we heard at this committee there were 60 communications. We knew that already, but a lot of it was to say that everything was fine and on track. All the emails that Feargal Ó Coigligh was getting were saying everything was still on track for 2024 and still on budget. Two weeks ago, the figure of €60,000 was mentioned. We questioned him a lot around that figure, and then we saw yesterday that it was €119,000. There is a perception that things are nice and cosy and the Arts Council can send the Department an email and it will take it as read. This cannot be the reality, so how can the Minister make sure this is not the reality?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the legal bill, this is exactly what we did. The officials in our Department interrogate those numbers and this is how we arrived at €119,000. That figure came from people who work in my Department going deeper and deeper with questioning to find out what the actual cost was, especially given there could be further liabilities if legal action were to be pursued. That €119,000, therefore, did not come out of the ether and was not unprecipitated. It was sought and detected by our officials.

Have we bottomed out? The reality is that when Professor Niamh Brennan produces her report it may very well be a continuation or republication of the one already done internally in the Department regarding the expenditure and the sums of money, but I expect there will be a lot more in terms of the governance and the culture. I was watching yesterday evening and saw some of the interaction in respect of the 60 pieces of correspondence and the Secretary General answered those questions with regard to those 60 pieces of correspondence. One of the issues that was blatantly obvious, though, was that on more than one occasion it was said the appointment of an assistant principal officer higher grade could be proceeded with, but it was not done. Ultimately, when the appointment was made, it was made at that grade, but it took 18 months for the appointment to be made even though the Department had said it could go ahead 18 months previously. My focus now is to ensure what we get by way of a full and final report from Professor Brennan can be laid before the Oireachtas and then we can come back in again. We must then actually rebuild confidence in the organisation.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Yes. I take the point the Minister made around the contract, wanting to have a timeline for the new executive director and to wait until the outcome of the report. I think that makes sense. We are, though, talking about the guts of €7 million gone. The Arts Council still does not have an IT system. The off-the-shelf one is still maybe an option. We are still, though, talking about loads of money and no product at the end of it. We did raise questions about accounting and finance capabilities on the board or having this oversight element on it. Now, we also do not have an executive director and never before has the Arts Council so needed a really strong leader, CEO, executive director or whatever we want to call it. It does not have one. What is the state of play now? How far away is it from having someone in place? It has never needed someone more.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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One of the things the Department will have to have regard to is that we will need a temporary acting director, CEO or call it what you will. We are in the process of trying to identify someone to do it. I have to look at this issue in the round, with the consent of the board, then, at a time we will determine after Professor Niamh Brennan reports. Many of the decisions here were taken with the full knowledge of the board. I will have to look at this matter in the context of what is actually presented to me by Professor Brennan. I know it is frustrating for the members because they want to get to the bottom of it, and it is frustrating for me too. My overriding concern now is that we do get to the bottom of it and once we have a report, it can be shared and disseminated. If there are recommendations around, for instance, individual capacities or deficiencies on the board, then I will address them.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Will that be addressed within the governance review as well by Professor Niamh Brennan?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I have more questions, but I will wait until the next round.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Deputy Joanna Byrne.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State to the committee. I am envious of them. They hold roles that are unusual for many Ministers and Ministers of State because their portfolios and briefs touch the hearts and minds of nearly every household and family in the country. I think it will probably be quite an enjoyable brief, once we get over all the Arts Council business.

Starting with the Minister of State, I have some queries around sports capital funding. Specifically on the large-scale sports infrastructure fund, this was warmly welcomed last year, with €173 million benefitting some 35 projects. This is testament to the Government creating funding opportunities, which demonstrates its ambitious vision for sport.

Last year saw an unprecedented number of applications from clubs and organisations looking to evolve, grow their respective sports and make lasting contributions to their clubs and communities through facilities mostly. Upgrades to facilities and the building of facilities future-proofs their clubs for the next generations to enjoy. However, with great vision comes great disappointment when these clubs are not successful. The figures speak for themselves with €665 million for 96 applications. This shows we were only touching one third of the demand that was there, both in applications and the value of money that was set aside and earmarked for the funds. I have submitted several parliamentary questions to try to get some clarity on it. There seems to be some grey area on the reserve list. Some of my responses have suggested that a reserve was being co-ordinated and would be published in due course. My most recent response now suggests that this reserve list is not being published. Is it the intention of the Minister of State to publish that reserve list?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I felt very much like the goalkeeper in the contest for a while when most of the play is up the other end of the pitch. The Deputy rightly outlined the LSSIF. It was an important piece relating to the overall funding infrastructure that the State provides. Prior to 2019, there had not been anything filling that space. There were many projects of a reasonable scale throughout the country that were not able to proceed because they did not have any funding. The first round was in 2019. We had a second round more recently with €177 million awarded.

On how we go forward, we would like to be able to run that scheme again with a further round in a shorter timeframe than happened last time which was five years. This will be dependent on how much funding we receive under the national development plan. Many of those projects, such as Drogheda United F.C., were worthy projects that were not funded because the demand well exceeded the supply of funding even though it was strong funding. The priority in the short term is working with those 33 projects that were funded to make sure they can move on. The capacity for a reserve list and for there to be any meaningful funding or any movement on those projects that were not successful will depend on there being available funding for that. The first priority is to identify if there will be any funding. The key to that is working with those that were funded to move them on and monitor that closely. If funding becomes available, we will look then at a reserve list regarding other potential projects. Any reserve list would be redundant in the absence of any additional funding becoming available.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I respect that, but I am aware of several clubs that have been told that they are at the top of a reserve list. There is an example in Louth GAA, which has made great strides in recent months to move its project on, but is now depending on the next round of the LSSIF or perhaps a move to the reserve list if successful projects cannot come into fruition. There seems to be a little bit of a grey area from conversations that have may have been had with the Department or the Minister of State's predecessors. It would offer clarity to many people if that was a possibility. We have to bear in mind that many clubs are not big outfits, such as Louth GAA or county GAAs. There are many smaller clubs that invested tens of thousands into hundreds of thousands of euros into the applications, including feasibility studies. Some of them went as far as detailed stadium plans, architectural drawings for upgrades or whatever it may have been. It would offer reassurance to these clubs that there is hope. That is probably what many clubs are looking for at this moment. Is there hope or should they be looking to explore alternative options?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have not compiled any reserve list at the moment. Compiling any reserve list will be contingent on us securing additional funding to be able to do that. That is something we would then look at in the context of having additional funding. There is hope. We want to see more projects move on and more projects built. We intend to continue with this fund and have future rounds of it. The question of whether we can secure additional funding to be able to do something in the interim period is contingent on whether we can identify additional funding. In the meantime, our priority is working with those 33 projects that were funded to try to make sure they move on and get into development.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Are there criteria on the successful allocations regarding timeframes? Were there any timeframes contingent on the allocation?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There is a general approach that they have to use it if they want to keep it. That is the approach we will be taking. However, we are at the stage now where they have been awarded. We are looking to work with them. Some of them are at different stages. We want to see them get to fruition. That is our objective. We will be working with them to try to get drawdown and get them moved on.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a risk of losing that funding?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Not in the short term. We are not going to keep it on the never-never because we do not want funding held up whereby other projects could be proceeding. That is something we will monitor closely. We expect all of those who have received funding awards to get a move on and to move ahead with their projects.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and officials to the session. My first question is for the Minister of State. I was delighted to hear in his statement so much emphasis on inclusion in sport, particularly for women and people with disabilities. It is hugely important. One of the important areas that he did not mention is trans participation in sports. I feel strongly that we as a committee need to look at this issue because not only is it a rights and equality issue for those in the trans community who are experiencing difficulty in inclusion in sports and participation in sports, but it is also a wedge issue where far-right ideology is essentially using this as a recruitment ground to bring people into their thinking. What plans does the Minister of State have to ensure participation in sports for members of the trans community?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We want to see everyone participating in sport and having the opportunity to participate. Sport Ireland has published guidelines for national sporting bodies, but there are different approaches taken by sporting organisations internationally as well. It is a role for each national governing body relating to their policy on the issue,as long as they are working in conjunction with the Sport Ireland guidelines. Our approach from a participation point of view is to make sure everybody has the opportunity to participate. National governing bodies set their own policy within the Sport Ireland framework.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The Minister of State has detailed programmes in regard to gender participation in sport and disability. Is there anything similar to specifically address trans participation in sport, given this is such an acute issue? I have worked with the trans community and advocacy groups within that. The trans community would describe themselves as micro-marginalised. They are a small community in Ireland. They do not have the resources to essentially fight all the different fronts they need to ensure participation in society. Where is it in the Department's priorities to ensure people in the trans community can participate beyond the official guidelines-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to participate in sport.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Is there not anything specifically focused on trans participation?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Sport Ireland has guidelines which each national governing body follows regarding participation around-----

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Are there any programmes that are specific on trans participation?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There are not any currently. We want to ensure that everybody gets the opportunity to participate.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have another question for the Minister of State before I move on to topic of online safety with the Minister. The Minister of State mentioned the importance of funding and hosting large tournaments, such as T20 Cricket World Cup bid with the UK. Will there be additional funding provided to related governing bodies around those tournaments to facilitate participation initiatives for the broader public to maximise the benefits of these events?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is something we want to see as part of every tournament we host. It is about improving participation. There are benefits for the wider economy and from a tourism point of view. Each time we do something, we want to see it have a wider benefit too and particularly benefit the sport and the participation in sport. We are examining that, for example, in the context of golf at the moment regarding the Ryder Cup in 2027. We will also be examining it relating to cricket. One of the key projects we are looking to progress as well in advance of the T20 World Cup in 2030 is the progression of the new cricket ground as part of the sport campus. That would be a significant investment. It is something we are working with Sport Ireland to progress. Regarding making sure it is a successful tournament, it is something we are going to be doing North and South with Dublin, Belfast and Bready being key grounds for that. We want to make sure it is appropriately resourced.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, spoke in his opening statement about meeting with the tech platforms and how he believes that robust age verification is his priority for keeping children safe online. Has the Minister considered how problematic the handling of swathes of personal data and handing them over to social media companies might be?

As we know, these are companies that have consistently misused personal data. I am also keen to hear if, within those discussions, the Department had any discussions on the regulation of algorithms, which might be a more effective way to protect children online.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The main thrust of the discussions I had with the companies was to assess their position on whether they believed that age verification is a good thing. Universally all of them did. The Deputy is right that it is going to be a complicated issue to be able to verify a person's age. There are a number of different ways that can be done-----

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does the Minister have concerns about the handing over of personal data?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I will get to that in a second. There are a number of different ways age verification could be done and each one has its own pros and cons. The most important thing here from my perspective is that children are protected from seeing and being subjected to completely inappropriate material online.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have just one minute left. Specifically, does the Minister have concerns about the issue of handing over data? Did the Department discuss algorithms with those companies?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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My concerns, in a hierarchical ranking, are concern for the child first. That is my primary concern.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does the Minister have concerns over the handing over of data?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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My primary concern at the moment is to make sure that children online are safe. As a parent and as a former teacher, this is my primary motivation. Each and every one of the companies I met has a different methodology or suggestion as to how they believe age verification could be achieved. The Office of the Government Chief Information Officer will have a view, the European Commission will have a view and other members states will have a view but ultimately my overriding concern is that our children are safe online. If there is a hierarchy-----

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does the Minister believe their safety is enhanced by handing over their personal data?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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If there is a hierarchy, it is that the safety of the child should come first no matter what else.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Did the Minister discuss algorithms?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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No, I did not. I discussed the safety of the child online. I encourage the committee if members have suggestions to outline how our children could be safe online. It is a balancing act in terms of rights but they have to be proportionate. The most important thing is that the right of the child to be safe online should be enshrined.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Algorithms have to be absolutely front and centre in those discussions. It is a much more effective way to look at protecting our children online, aiding their education-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I am open to-----

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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-----and also consider platforms as publishers.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I am open to any suggestions but it will be done in the context of national and EU law. EU law allows us to go so far in this space. Coimisiún na Meán has done a lot very positive work on this and should be commended on it. Ultimately, as parents of young children it behoves us all to ask ourselves "Is the current situation suitable, and is it reflective of where we want Ireland to be in 2025 and of where Europe should be in 2025?". I certainly do not think it is.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister and the Minister of State are very welcome. I was listening in online and I welcome comments by the Minister pertaining to theatre and drama groups and looking at providing funding for community centres that host so many events throughout the country. We have seen groups out fund-raising to put on shows. A huge amount of time has been put in by the people who are working in all of these voluntary organisations. In my county we have the St. Mel's Music Society and the Evolution Stage School variety group, which provide endless entertainment. It is only proper that they are supported or any of those venues where they host their shows are supported, similar to the sports capital funding. I welcome those comments.

I also welcome what the Minister said just in the past few minutes. The issue is about the safety of the child first. This is what has to be the priority. I have done significant work on this. Deputy Malcolm Byrne and I were members of the media committee in the previous Dáil. We worked on the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act, along with a number of officials with the Minister today. Ultimately it is about protecting our children. That has to be the priority. We should have inserted a minimum age into that Act. Deputy Byrne and I tabled an amendment on this to the Bill but it was not accepted based on what we were told, which was "Let us wait too see what the EU will do". We should not wait; we should just go ahead and do it. As the parent of young kids, and given what I see happening and what I am listening to from other parents, we should have had this done before now. I ask Coimisiún na Meán, the Minister and the Department to consider that we need to do it to ultimately protect our children. That has to be one of the top priorities, not just of this committee but of Government, because of the effect we see it has on children every day of the week. Will the Minister comment on that first?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I am entirely with the Deputy on this. I have met the European Commission around this and I have asked the European Commission the very blunt and very straight question of what could be more important for us as legislators than the protection of our children online in this space. Procrastination and fudging has gone on at a European level for a long time. Europe is going to have to react with a singular voice in this space. I hope that Ireland uses our presidency of the European Council to be able to distil down some of the arguments and some of the conversations that are needed to be held on this. Some member states are not in the same space as Ireland. Some people will say there are other rights that are more important than the right of a child to be protected. I have a bit of an issue with that.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. With regard to the Arts Council I support the views that the Minister has taken. I do not believe we could have reappointed the director, notwithstanding the fantastic work that Ms Kennelly did. In the circumstances we had to have thorough review before we could reappoint somebody for five years. I just wanted to say that I fully support the view the Minister took on that.

The Minister of State is probably aware that I am a postmaster. The Irish Postmasters' Union, An Post and officials from the Department of public expenditure and reform were before the committee last week. Perhaps the Minister of State will give his thoughts on the support being asked for. The €10 million per year for three years of State funding that was put in place has been a lifeline for hundreds of offices. This is not just post offices; this is about hundreds of communities. There is an ask now for €50 million a year for five years. I hope the Government will look on this extremely positively. If we do not put this in place, we will ultimately lose communities. We will lose the post offices and we will lose the communities too because of the other businesses that would close. We have seen what happened in the UK a decade or 15 years ago where hundreds of communities across that country shut down all other services because of the post offices closing.

On sport, will the Minister of State offer his comments on the potential for an LSSIF round? There was a round of funding 12 months ago but a significant number of sports were not in a position at the time to apply, for example, boxing. A lot of them do not own their own facilities. Something I particularly love myself, and which we play in my area, is rounders. Rounders is not too common but we do not have a centre of excellence for rounders in the country. It is one of our national sports, along with hurling, GAA and handball. What are the proposed funding rounds coming up in the future?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is a very strong advocate for the post office network and the impact it has on local communities. He is certainly right. The three-year agreement that is coming to a conclusion at the end of this year has been really important to maintaining the post office network. The Government is absolutely committed to ensuring that remains the case. This is going to require continued support by the Government. The programme for Government outlines our continued commitment to that. The Minister and I are very committed with the engagement we are having with the Department of public expenditure at the moment, and with our own team here, to making sure we have that renewed by the end of the year. Our team is assessing as well. Proposals have been put forward by the IPU, but the renewal of the agreement will be subject to the budgetary process, our engagement with the Department of public expenditure in finalising that, in assessing the services that will be provided in return, which we know is a very strong post office network. We are totally committed to having it renewed. The objective and the finalisation of it will be subject to the budgetary negotiations around budget time.

On the LSSIF, as I said earlier, we had two funding rounds in 2019 and 2024. It is certainly our objective to get to the point where we have a new round in a much shorter period than that. Again, this will be subject to the national development plan and the capital allocation we get within that. We certainly want to see a new round run. Some organisations did not apply but would like to be considered. Deputy Byrne mentioned that many had applied and want to be in a position to be considered again. It is something we hope to do another round of and in a much shorter timeframe but again it will be subject to the budgetary allocation we get.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a few questions. The depth of issues that have been discussed and dealt with today by the committee is refreshing. I do not want to dwell on this but I have a quick question on the Arts Council. In fairness, yesterday, the Secretary General accepted that more questions should have been asked. We can argue about the level of escalation or how it was escalated as an issue but presumably the Minister accepts that more questions should have been asked by the Department.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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When the Secretary General became aware of it, he initiated an investigation, which ultimately is the report that most of what we are answering today is based on. On the question of whether I am satisfied, I have replied to Deputy Brennan that this is why I brought in the IPA to do the body of work that it is doing.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I just wanted to acknowledge what the Secretary General said yesterday. We are very short on time and we are going to have a very short period for a second round of questions, because we have full attendance today. I will not repeat questions that have been asked. Is there a delegation order in place for the Minister of State or is that just being done?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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It is being done because a transfer of function to the Department has only finished in the past fortnight.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know and I accept that. With regard to cultural institutions the Minister stated in his presentation: "But noting that these are mainly in Dublin, it is also hugely important to me that we support investment in both the physical infrastructure cultural and arts venues in regional locations ...". This is refreshing and I support it. My two children are involved in acting and drama at the Musical Theatre Academy in Nenagh and the Nenagh Youth Academy. One does dance and choreography and the other directs acting. As Deputy Byrne alluded to earlier, he is taking after his father, who he found out was involved in that as a young man as well. What the Minister said in his opening statement combined with what he said about regional locations as potential capital, as basically sports capital for arts venues, would be very welcome. I am not excluding Dublin, by the way: I am just saying in general. What are the timelines as regards the potential application process for arts groups that are doing drama or dance or whatever? I am also thinking about the various small regional groups. I recall the former Minister, Healther Humphreys, put a call out in relation to halls, which was very successful. Is the Minister thinking of doing something similar for arts venues?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is a long way from Nenagh to the University Concert Hall in Limerick or the Lime Tree Theatre. North Tipperary should have a theatre that is capable of hosting events, the same as any other part of the country. The Irish National Opera is coming to Limerick in a couple of weeks. There is no reason that all these events should be all Dublin-centric. At the moment, by virtue of history and where the assets are, that is where they are centred. It is my ambition to be able to bring in a scheme that will ultimately be dependent on local authorities. Local authorities have to be in the driving seat for this, akin to the LSSIF, where it is either a local authority or a national governing body. I will make it the responsibility of the local authority. They will either have to have a site or matching funding. They will have to be the project manager and all of this will be predicated on the outcome of what we get from the national development plan, but it is a commitment in the programme for Government. We have work done on it.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What about the current funding for the small groups I just spoke about?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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We will have an ask in the budget for community-based sports facilities. We will be developing schemes for very basic things like instruments, uniforms, lighting, sound, curtains, all of those sort of things.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have two questions for the Minister of State. I am not sure whether I am saying this in jest but is he dealing with the Ryder Cup or is the Minister?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot get tickets.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is more to do with the fact that it is the Minister's back yard. Anyway, I will put these questions to the Minister for State. I know a director has been appointed and I very much support the person, as he is a good choice. Where are we at regarding the planning for the Ryder Cup with all the various components?

My second question is on an issue that the committee has agreed to discuss in the second half of this year. Regarding the issue of the merger in the GAA, what is the status? In trying to plan our programme to September we have asked for the GAA to come on four different dates but unfortunately, representatives are not available. We will get there. What is the status of this? Is the GAA on track, is it looking for funding? It is critically important in 2025 that we progress with this, so my two questions are on the Ryder Cup and the integration of the GAA.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of work is going on. A steering group is co-ordinating across Departments and is also working with Limerick County Council. It is under the chairmanship of a former Secretary General to the Government, Martin Fraser. The group meets regularly and is making progress. Most recently, a director has been employed in the Department to make sure it moves forward. He is taking on the role of liaising with Limerick County Council, the steering committee and across government. Good progress has been made. A lot of work is still to be done but there are good structures in place to make sure it progresses well and is a big success.

I have discussed the GAA issue with all three of the key bodies: the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association. As the committee knows, under the chairperson, former President, Mary McAleese, there is very strong engagement and I have been assured that work is progressing strongly and well.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What stage are they at?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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They have been considering the nuts and bolts of how it would all come together. There is a lot involved to bring all three organisations together, but everyone is committed to it and I have been assured that it is progressing well, and work is continuing.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State. We have private business to get through as well so we will have to have a very rapid-fire round, if that is okay, where everybody gets one question. I ask the Minister and the Minister of State to keep their responses short, purely because we have less than 20 minutes left. Deputy Ó Snodaigh is next.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wanted to ask a question on the grassroots music venues support scheme and the exceptional grant scheme but I am going to get the opportunity to do that so I will come back to the issue of the Arts Council. There seems to be a narrative being created, which seems to impugn the reputations of people who have already suffered the consequences. At this stage, does the Minister have confidence in the board or does he intend to sack the members? That seems to be what is coming from the his statement earlier or is he willing to wait without passing more comments against those who have been caught up in this, until the report is published?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I do not understand, what comments have I passed.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister suggested he had no confidence in the board and that there were questions to be answered.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I did not say that.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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When we look back, questions were raised about the director who is no longer there. Yes, the Minister said he was happy with the chairperson, but the suggestion is hanging out there that he does not have confidence in the board.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I do not know how the Deputy could have deduced that from what I said. I did not say that at all. If that is the version he wants to take from what I said, I cannot help that. What I did say is that I will await publication of the Professor Brennan's report. I have no problem coming back to the committee after the fact, but if the Deputy has deduced that from my statement, his powers are a bit different from what I thought they were.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We have to be brief, colleagues. I call Deputy Brennan.

Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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My question is linked to the last question. I feel that the Arts Council is not fit for purpose. I am entitled to say that. We wasted €7 million.

There was a data breach on 19 June, which is being investigated. Somebody presented a document here two weeks ago that did not have VAT on it. That is basic accountancy. It is intermediate certificate accountancy. How can an organisation exclude artists such as comedians and the Fleadh Cheoil? I will answer the question. It is not fit for purpose. It is not a question; it is a statement. There is no need to answer it.

Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I was attending another meeting on climate change but my understanding is that the contract for the former director of the Arts Council was a final contract and not a temporary contract. Why was the view of the board of the Arts Council disregarded that it would be more beneficial for the public interest that the contract not be extended? There is a vilification of the former director of the Arts Council generally in some of the commentary and the data breach on 19 June was talked about but the director has been gone since 13 June. We have to await the outcome of Professor Brennan's report. What were the Minister's thoughts around the decision-making-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I answered that already. It was a second contract and a new contract. I felt it was more appropriate that I offer a contract, which ultimately was refused, that would coincide around the completion time of Niamh Brennan's report. At that stage, if another person or the existing person wished to apply for a position the board made available, it was entirely at their own discretion.

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said during his presentation to the committee that not all the costs can fall back on the Department and at some stage he looks forward to actors here appearing in places such as Netflix. He took a decision this year on the streaming levy. There was cross-party support on the committee and it was a recommendation of a report commissioned by Coimisiún na Meán to introduce the levy. The Minister said it was in the interest of consumers. It would only have cost approximately 30 cent for each consumer per month if it was introduced as discussed. It would have generated approximately €20 million. On 1 January, Denmark took a similar decision to introduce a 2% levy and it is higher if Netflix and others do not invest in Danish content. Netflix did not increase the price of content in Denmark. Why did the Minister decide not to introduce this levy when the streamers are charging consumers here among the highest costs in the world?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Deputy, it is time, if you want an answer.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I have answered that in the Dáil on a couple of occasions. While there can be cross-party consensus, I ultimately have to make a decision. The timing could not be worse in terms of the introduction of a levy that would impose financial sanction on companies predominantly domiciled in the United States of America. It would not make good sense, to be honest, for people in Gorey to see their Netflix or Rakuten go up-----

Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There is no evidence it would.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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There is evidence in the report circulated that levies would have been passed onto the consumer. Show me a Government levy that has ever been introduced in the past in this country that was not passed onto the consumer. I believe in a lot of things but fairytales are not one. When I met the streamers in the United States, I made it very clear that I am not abolishing the levy, I am retaining it at zero and after a fixed period, I reserve the right to re-examine it, which they all welcomed. They said they would reflect on that.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Deputy O'Sullivan has not spoken yet.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will master the ability to be in three or four places at one time some day.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We are under pressure.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to ask about the LSSIF. I have chased it with the Minister of State for a long time. I understand another round will most likely be sometime next year. With regard to projects on the list to be approved or confirmed - I hate to call it a waiting list - is the Minister of State confident going into budgetary discussions? Will he seek additional money for a fresh call to address some of the demand likely to come? My understanding is the allocation of €120 million last year was oversubscribed. Is he confident he will be able to secure enough money for it or is it his intention?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are certainly pushing hard to secure additional funding. We have to make sure the projects funded at the moment move on. That is key focus in the short term. We also want to reopen it in as prompt a timeframe as we can and, if we can secure additional funding in the meantime, see how additional projects may be able to move forward but that is subject to additional funding. We are committed to seeing as many develop as possible. There was a lag for many years where projects of this scale were not able to move on. While we have seen lots of progress on small-scale projects and the development of clubs through the sports capital fund, a large number of medium-sized projects require LSSIF funding to move forward. We are working to secure additional funding.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Minister of State. I had to give Deputy O'Sullivan a bit of latitude as he had not spoken yet. We need to get back to rapid-fire. I call Senator Ahearn.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I will address my question to the Minister of State as his roles have been defined since the Departments changed. He spoke about female participation in sport. There is probably no better example than Irish soccer over the past number of years. There has been a 27% increase in female participation, largely down to the performance of the women's soccer team in the World Cup in Australia and the good performances they have had, Katie McCabe in particular. The FAI put forward a proposal for a ten-year plan for Irish soccer, led by the CEO David Courell, to open up 26 new locations across the country - Limerick, Donegal, everywhere - support grassroots and in particular talented young players to reach their potential. Has the Minister of State met the FAI to discuss the plan? Is he open to supporting the FAI in the budget in October?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We met a couple of times to discuss it and go through it thoroughly. We have committed almost €1 million towards an overall audit of where things are at the moment. That will inform how we go forward. That work is ongoing. Auditors were appointed and are engaging with clubs and the FAI across the country to get a full assessment of the current situation. There is undoubtedly a need, particularly post Brexit where young footballers are not able to go abroad any more until they turn 18. How that need is served will require further consideration and will also be informed by the audit.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I will address this question to the Minister of State. My colleague Deputy Byrne and I are pursuing compulsory swimming lessons for primary school children in light of too many drowning tragedies. We have approached the Department of Education and Youth. Can this be put through the national swimming strategy?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is something we want to consider further particularly in relation to the infrastructure in place. There are gaps in swimming pool infrastructure across the country. I am open to working with the Senator and Deputy Byrne on how to progress that and make sure young people have access to lessons through school system.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Excellent. I am far too quick asking questions but I got my answer.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Senator has 25 seconds left.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Safety online is not only for young children; it is also for adults. We have a defamation law coming down the line. How can we make sure people are not hiding behind anonymity and you are guilty until proven innocent, basically?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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There are vulnerable adults as well, whom I also included. The definition we have discussed in the Department includes children, vulnerable adults and people with reduced capacity because they are as at risk as children. I can take it up outside the committee with the Senator.

Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I wish to get clarification on GAA+. I think its launch was postponed or cancelled in early March. Was it fully signed off between the RTÉ board and the Minister? I think the Minister would have had to sign off on it. It was GAAGo and it was reconfigured into GAA+. What is the state of play?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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We have no role in GAA+ but we have a role in GAAGo. GAAGo is a joint venture run between the GAA and RTÉ. In order for the sale of an asset owned by RTÉ to proceed, it has to get the consent of the Department and me. In advance of that, it has to get consent and be scrutinised by NewERA. That work is ongoing.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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For clarity, RTÉ technically still has 50% ownership of GAAGo.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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No, GAAGo is owned jointly between the GAA and RTÉ.

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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So it still has that at the moment.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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GAA+ is not an issue for-----

Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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GAAGo. GAA+ is a new venture and it did not need any-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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It is nothing to do with the Government or RTÉ.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In the Minister's statement, he mentioned the inadequate response after Storm Éowyn and how his Department is reviewing statutory powers available to the Minister and ComReg in relation to requirements on operators.

The Minister noted the storm-related information gathering network integrity obligations regarding restoration and informing consumers about networking services. How far along is that process, does the Minister have any timeframes on it and are there any budget concerns relating to the outcome of this?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Many of the operators have invested heavily since we engaged with them. Regarding their own resilience, the biggest issue was power outages at critical pieces of infrastructure. They have now been identified and the operators have a lot of work ongoing. This is a liberalised market. We do not own the State's infrastructure - or any of the infrastructure - but we do control the regulation.

One issue I am not happy about is that customers in west Mayo and west Cork were out for up to 19 weeks. I do not believe that is proportionate and I have made this very clear to ComReg and the operators. We need to do further work with ComReg on climate change. We must ensure it is fit for purpose and protects consumers in a country that will have more and more Atlantic storms.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The Minister mentioned the development of subsea cables as a departmental priority. The existing subsea cables are privately owned. How does a privately-owned asset improve our autonomy as a State and will the Department be subsidising the development of new cables?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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No decision has been made on that but the more cables that come in and out of the island of Ireland and the more different routes there are, the better.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Besides the routes, what about the private or public ownership of them?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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That has not been decided but the more connectivity we get as an island, the better. Considering our nearest neighbour has now left the European Union and 90% of our traffic goes through the United Kingdom, this puts Ireland at a potential risk. There are other routes we could get to, such as Scandinavia, Germany, France and Iberia. These are all being examined.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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As long as they are privately owned, does the Minister accept they do not necessarily improve our autonomy as a State?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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All the cables we have at present are privately owned-----

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Exactly.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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-----and it does not in any way diminish our connectivity.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It does not enhance our autonomy.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I did not say that. I do not think it in any way diminishes our connectivity that everything is currently privately owned and no decision has been made with regard to the future ownership of any cable.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have one last question which has not been covered and I am trying to fill in the blanks. On the issue of gaming and animation, the Minister appears to be quite passionate about this, as am I. Working with Screen Ireland, there is a nucleus whereby all of these may come together. There is an opportunity here given the skills and output we have in this country; however, it needs strategy. Is there a plan to put a strategy in place?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes, we have a plan.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What is the Department's timeline for this and could the committee bring people in?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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It would be very helpful if the committee were to do so. We have met most of the key stakeholders and, as I said, much of what I will ultimately want to do will require legislative change around Screen Ireland's legislation. The board is too small and there needs to be designated-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Will it be back in Screen Ireland or will it be a new entity? We will probably have to diversify.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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We are ultimately talking about screens and Screen Ireland has a very good reputation internationally. It does fantastic work, especially in the United States where much of this work is domiciled. I am not fixated on the name; I am more fixated on ensuring the representative sections of the sector, including gaming and animation, are properly represented. There is much work already under way on this but if the committee wants to have hearings on the gaming sector and animation, I would welcome any deliberations it might have.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I might liaise with the Department-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes, please do.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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-----on how to go about that because it is a sector with huge capacity.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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It is massive.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We have covered everything in the Department. I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and all the officials for attending. We will go into private session. We are under severe time pressure and have a significant issue, which has just come in, to discuss with a few other matters.