Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 24 June 2025
Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration
Estimates for Public Services 2025
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice (Further Revised)
2:00 am
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have not been notified of any apologies. I remind members to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode. This meeting is convened to consider Revised Estimates for Vote 20 - Garda Síochána; Vote 21 - Prisons; Vote 22 - Courts Service; Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission; and a second Further Revised Estimate for Vote 24 - Justice. These Estimates were referred for consideration.
I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and his officials for attending and assisting our consideration of the Estimates. I also thank them for the provision of information related to the Estimates. I propose the Minister makes some brief opening remarks after which I will invite members to contribute. It is proposed we consider each Vote in order on a subhead by subhead basis. We will then invite the Minister to make remarks on different sections, if he so wishes.
I remind all members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I thank the Minister for being here and invite him to begin.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and members. I am very pleased to be here to seek the committee's approval for the Revised and Further Revised Estimates for the justice Vote group. The Chairman will be aware that investment across all the areas of justice, home affairs and migration is significant. It reflects the commitment the Government set out in the programme for Government and what my colleagues, the Ministers of State, Deputies Niall Collins and Colm Brophy, and I seek to do to ensure we have a modern, efficient justice system that works for the citizen and reflects the fundamental need of all people to feel safe and secure in their homes and communities. That is something we take for granted. There is a significant value on that to which we sometimes do not allocate recognition.
As the Chair has indicated, I am here this afternoon to seek the committee's approval for the Revised Estimates for the following Votes: Vote 20, An Garda; Vote 21, Irish Prison Service; Vote 22, the Courts Service; and Vote 44, the Data Protection Commission.
On Vote 24, concerning the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, the Revised Estimate has already been approved, in April, and the purpose today is to agree the Further Revised Estimate which reflects the transfer of responsibility for cybersecurity policy and the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC, from Vote 29, which is under the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment. This transfer to my Department takes effect from 1 June, increasing the Department's funding by €22.9 million in gross terms and €22.6 million in net terms.
Together, these Estimates provide for gross expenditure across the five Votes in my Department and the justice sector of €5.958 billion, €5.625 billion of which relates to current expenditure and €360 million of which relates to capital expenditure. In addition, capital moneys totalling €16.6 million have been carried over to 2024, bringing the total capital allocation available this year to €376.6 million.
The two remaining Votes in the justice Vote group, namely Vote 41, Policing and Community Safety Authority, and Vote 46, Fiosrú, were set up as two new Votes and brought before the Dáil on 1 April.
I will set out in some detail the key developments in the Revised Estimates Volume for 2025 in respect of each of the individual Votes. As members present will agree, a core focus of this funding is building stronger, safer communities. To achieve that, we have to have a strong Garda Síochána and security service. The Ministers of State in my Department and I are committed to this.
The funding I am seeking approval for today will also facilitate Cuan, the new statutory agency that supports victims of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. That is an important part of my work.
I was going to go through each Vote.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The first is the Garda Vote. I will give an overview and if members want to ask me questions, they may do so. We will go through the other Votes also.
I am very pleased to say the gross allocation for the Garda Síochána Vote – Vote 20 – is €2.48 billion, which includes a very substantial capital allocation of €173 million. This funding allows for increasing recruitment and provides the equipment, technology, facilities and fleet the Garda requires to keep communities safe.
The 2025 capital allocation of €173 million includes €99 million for Garda ICT. This will continue to reform and enhance the Garda ICT systems, which require continual capital investment to ensure gardaí have the best equipment. The Chair will be aware of the benefit of having body-worn cameras. We have rolled these out in Limerick and Waterford and in certain stations in Dublin. They are a very effective tool for An Garda. I am informed by the Garda that knowing you could be recorded when you approach a garda changes your behaviour. We want to ensure the Garda has the most sophisticated systems for crime investigation to respond to specialist types of crime, and that will require upgrading platforms and infrastructure further. Members will be aware that gardaí will be given greater facilities and abilities through the garda mobility devices. These will be very useful in allowing them to have instant access to information.
Also included in the allocation is €62 million for the capital building and refurbishment programme. This will fund continued investment in upgrading and modernising the Garda estate. With an estate of over 700 buildings, significant works are required constantly. We are also delivering a range of new stations and headquarters buildings. As members will be aware, the large projects include those in Portlaoise and Macroom, which are divisional headquarters. As the Chair will be well aware, there will be a new station in Bailieborough, County Cavan, and new stations at Newcastle West, County Limerick, and Clonmel, County Tipperary. These projects have to be funded but they will result in important new stations for An Garda. There will also be constant upgrading of facilities.
There will be €10 million for transport, which includes the purchase of vehicles, including roads policing vehicles, marked and unmarked cars, public order vehicles, and community safety vans, which are important. We are also focusing on fleet electrification.
A total of €8 million is being provided towards new Garda aircraft this year. This is funding carried over from 2024. In 2023, contracts were signed for the delivery of two aircraft – one fixed-wing aircraft and one helicopter. The plane and helicopter are due for delivery in September of this year and will become fully operational during 2026. A second helicopter was ordered in 2024. As sum of €39.4 million has been spent to date on these aircraft, with some of the balance due later this year and in 2026. It is important for a strong police force to have these assets, particularly when trying to combat espionage, terrorism, border issues, organised crime gangs and human trafficking.
In the region of 88% of Garda current expenditure is on pay and pensions. I am pleased that the funding for 2025 provides for further recruitment, that is, recruitment of between 800 and 1,000 new gardaí and 150 additional Garda staff, as well as more Garda reserves for the first time in years. This year, 370 new Garda recruits have already started training in Templemore, with two more intakes still to come. The trainee allowance is now €354 per week, almost double that in 2023. The maximum age of recruitment has increased from 35 to 50. These are challenging times for every employer seeking to recruit but these changes are having an impact on the effort to attract people. In fact, the recent recruitment campaign attracted 6,700 expressions of interest. We have to try to convert these into members on the ground.
An overtime budget of €150 million has been provided for 2025. This includes ongoing support for high-visibility policing to tackle crime and antisocial behaviour, and the investigation of serious and organised crime.
Road safety is a shared responsibility and one the Government takes very seriously. As members know, there are too many tragic deaths on our roads. Road traffic legislation is enforced by the roads policing units of An Garda. A sum of €9 million in additional funding for road safety cameras was provided and this includes continuing the increased level of 9,000 hours per month for GoSafe speed cameras, and for the installation of static speed cameras.
I acknowledge, as the Cathaoirleach and I have done previously in the Houses of the Oireachtas, the very tragic death of Garda Kevin Flatley, a member of the Garda traffic unit. He gave his life in the line of duty. It is important to reflect on that again because it emphasises the danger within An Garda Síochána, particularly for those working in the traffic corps. It is vital that gardaí be supported and that the Government be committed to continuing to ensure An Garda Síochána has the appropriate resources.
That is what I wanted to say in respect of the Garda Vote.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will now open the discussion to members, if they wish to contribute. The Minister's remarks related to Vote 20 – the An Garda Síochána section of the Estimates – in its entirely.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have several questions. I raised here with the Garda Commissioner the fact that, some weeks ago, An Garda destroyed a range of ammunition and guns. This cost €160,000. It was the famous range of guns and ammunition whose storage in Garda headquarters I am sure the Minister is aware I have referred to many times. The Minister might take a look at the picture I have to hand in this regard. The taxpayer had to pay the €160,000 but the ammunition could have damaged gardaí or caused harm to them. Will somebody explain to me why we wrote off €160,000 concerning ammunition whose destruction should have been paid for by Fiocchi Munizioni, which I think is Italian and whose agent here is Daniel Technologies. The Minister might find out why we wrote off €160,000 of taxpayers' money for equipment which in any other walk of life would be given back if faulty, resulting in one getting one's money back. Why did a sergeant give a letter of comfort to the company and its agent?
Last week in the Dáil, I raised the issue of the report on asbestos in Garda stations. The Minister has had a week to read it. He would not be aware of it only I raised it. I note he is smiling. The report is very serious and I am sure he is well aware of it now. I am sure his officials have found it for him. He stated the Revised Estimates Volume refers to €62 million in capital for stations, etc. What is being done about affected stations, particularly the 12 identified regarding which Mr. Kirwan, a deputy director of the State Claims Agency, warned that unless the remedial work was undertaken, the agency would be unable to defend future claims?
This was back in 2016, which was nine years ago. What is being done as regards the capital plan and funding for those stations? We already had a fairly significant issue in Santry, as I am sure the Minister is aware.
Repeatedly, the Minister and, recently, the Tánaiste, have said a second Garda recruitment location will be needed. I have argued against this because we have land in Clonmore, County Tipperary, which has never been used even though it was purchased for the expansion of the Garda College. Is there any provision within these Revised Estimates for research or work towards providing another location for garda training and is the Minister still committed to it, as the Tánaiste said he was last week? That response would be interesting.
We had the Garda Representative Association, GRA, in front of us last week. It raised the issue of allowances, particularly the subsistence allowance, which has not moved in the guts of a decade, I believe. The GRA is saying that, if this issue is not dealt with, there will be some form of protest - I am being diplomatic - during Ireland's EU Presidency. Is there a provision within the Garda budget to deal with these genuine issues relating to allowances? I accept some other allowances have been upgraded, such as the training allowance, although it is still not enough. Is this issue going to be dealt with? Are we going to have the embarrassing situation where An Garda Síochána is effectively doing a blue flu during our six-month EU Presidency?
I want to ask the Minister about the assessment of CBRN, which for people watching refers to chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear materials. What provision is there within An Garda Síochána to ensure that, in modern world and given everything that is going on, we have enough resources put into this? As far as I know, upskilling the personnel to the accreditation required has not happened and is out of date by the guts of a decade. I also understand that there are issues around breathing masks and protective suits being out of date. The actual equipment the Garda has is simply not meeting requirements.
I was not invited to the last passing-out ceremony in Templemore even though I am the local TD. It was the first time I was not invited. I do not know why that is. Maybe I have become an issue for people. We keep getting quoted this figure of 6,700 people having applied to join An Garda Síochána. I would appreciate it if the Minister broke down how many actually qualified and all the way down to where there were 200 called into Templemore but only 120 actually graduated. As we now know, 62% of those gardaí went to Dublin in a very discriminatory way. Despite many retirements, one went to Tipperary. One went to Kerry. I am sure the Minister's colleagues in government will be talking to him about that. How much is it costing us to train people who are never going to become gardaí? How many are there and if we breakdown the 6,700, how many will realistically make it through that process?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I remind members that, even if names of entities or individuals are in the public domain, if they are not here to defend themselves, members should refrain from mentioning them.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kelly's first question was on why the sergeant gave a letter of comfort in respect of the €160,000 worth of ammunition. As the Deputy is aware, I am not the person involved on a day-to-day basis in assessing what is going on in An Garda Síochána. However, he and I are aware that a protected disclosure has been made in respect of the issue that he raised as well as many associated issues. They are being assessed and appraised and will be determined. If there was any failure on the part of the sergeant or other individuals not to ensure there was value for money from An Garda Síochána, that will be exposed. I will have no difficulty then in going to the Commissioner and saying that it is an issue that needs to be taken into account by him as the Accounting Officer.
The second question the Deputy asked related to asbestos in Garda stations. I thank him for raising it last week. I went back and asked for and read the report. I will give the Deputy my overview of what is contained in the report and what has happened since then. As the Deputy said, the State Claims Agency completed a review of asbestos in Garda buildings in late 2016. The review prioritised 12 stations that the OPW, in conjunction with the Garda, needed to address. The OPW resurveyed the 12 stations in early 2017. I am informed that, having reviewed the updated reports and registers, the OPW was satisfied that works to remove asbestos were not necessary at that time. In all 12 cases, there was either no asbestos detected, it had already been removed or they had been given the status of "manage in situ", to be removed when or if works are planned that may disturb the asbestos. This approach is consistent with appropriate asbestos management and practice.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Minister might provide us with a copy of both reports.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am just telling the Deputy what the OPW has said to me. It resurveyed the 12 Garda stations and reviewed the updated report and register. It is satisfied that works were not necessary. The Deputy will be aware that,-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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-----in very many old buildings, there is asbestos. The asbestos becomes a problem when somebody starts knocking down the building. Simply because there is an old building that has asbestos does not mean it is a threat to somebody's health. It can be a threat to health if the building is knocked down. Obviously, there have to be very careful measures put in place in respect of that.
The Deputy referred to Templemore and whether we were looking to establish another Garda College. I know this is an issue of concern to the Deputy as the TD who represents Templemore. There is no threat to Templemore. Under no circumstances am I going to be a Minister for justice who comes in and suggests that we undermine or move away from Templemore. The point being made, as the Deputy will be aware, is that there are limitations on the numbers Templemore can take in. At 200 students per entry, it is pressurised. It could probably go to 225. If there are five intakes a year, we could get to 1,000. If we can get to those numbers that is great, there will be no issue. If we are in a situation where the numbers are going to-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Five times 225, yes. If we can get to those numbers, that is great and there will be no issue, but if we manage to get significantly more than that, we will have to look at other areas. The type of thing we will be looking at is not setting up some other college in the other part of Tipperary. We would maybe look to see if any of the technological universities might be able to provide some basis for the training of gardaí. At present, we have not reached that situation. There is a report being done in my Department in respect of this. Nothing is going to be done to undermine Templemore. I want to assure the Deputy of that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There will be a second location.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say there will be. I said we are going to look. Hopefully, if we reach a situation-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is in the programme for Government.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I know, but let me finish. If there is a situation that we are only getting 800 people into Templemore per annum, it is not going to be an issue, but we have to be adventurous for the future. If it is the case that we are going to attract numbers that Templemore simply cannot deal with, of course we are going to have to look at that.
The Deputy also raised the issue of subsistence and travel allowances. I have met the GRA and all the other associations. The subsistence and travel allowances have been mentioned to me repeatedly. This issue has been going on for too long and needs to be resolved. I have instructed the relevant officials in my Department to deal with that. I am not trying to blame another statutory agency, but the issue at present is with Revenue. There needs to be agreement with Revenue in respect of subsistence and travel allowances. I will be embarrassed if this has not been sorted out by the time I next meet the GRA. It is not exclusively an issue that just arrived on my desk - it has been there historically - but it is something I am committed to doing.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy also asked about the chemical, biological and nuclear assessment. I get updates from the Garda Commissioner quarterly. I get security briefings frequently in respect of the threats to Ireland. I regret to say that the threats are there, as the Deputy will appreciate, but I have confidence in An Garda Síochána in terms of what it is doing and the manner in which it confronts criminality. The front of The Irish Times today had an article about how, in Ireland, gun crime was at such a low level that the HSE had stopped recording it in hospitals. It was less than five people in 2024. That is an astonishing achievement for this country, particularly when we think of the proliferation of weapons around Europe and around the world.
With the greatest of respect, that has not happened because of politicians, although we deserve some credit for resourcing An Garda Síochána, but because of the work the Garda does in ensuring that, if it sees a threat of weapons coming into this country, it pounces on it immediately. The Garda deserves to be commended in respect of that.
I am aware of what the Deputy said about chemical and biological threats to our country. It is something we have to keep preparing for. I note what the Deputy said about the accreditation not being provided. I will have a look at that.
I am very disappointed that the Deputy was not invited to Templemore. I do not know if I have the authority to invite him.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am okay. I did not take it personally.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will send him out a consistent invitation. I do not know if it is the Minister for justice who invites-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Actually, the Chairman should come down to some attestation. It is a great family occasion and one realises the pride people have in An Garda Síochána. I hope Deputy Kelly will be at the next one.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No problem. I would be delighted.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know if I send the invitation. I cannot guarantee I will be giving the Deputy speaking rights there, but he will be more than welcome to come down.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I visit there enough, so the Minister is okay. Just on the last question-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The last part is about the allocation of gardaí. The Deputy is right, in that I do not intervene in determining where gardaí go when they come out of Templemore, but I want him to know that, as well as those gardaí, gardaí are allocated to different places around the country after they have been attested and in the force for a period of time. There are transfers that go on. I do not want people to think there are no gardaí going to a particular place because it only got one after the attestation. The Commissioner does not do that. The last thing we should have is a Minister for justice going in saying he or she wants them in his or her constituency.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Chair would be asking why they are not in Cavan-Monaghan.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kelly would be asking why they are not in Tipperary. Deputy Brabazon would be looking for them in Dublin Bay North. The way I approach it is, the Garda has to be given its own parameters to determine where it sees the threat as being.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Why is there such a loss between the numbers that go in and those that come out?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy talking about the 6,700 that-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Will the Minister break it down to the numbers that went in to train versus the numbers that came out after training?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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There is not a huge difference in terms of the numbers that go in and the numbers that come out. We got 200 pupils in at the last recruitment. We need to be pulling in 200 each time a batch starts at Templemore. We are only going to do four this year. There can be five tranches per year in Templemore. I want to see five tranches of 200.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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My point is there should be 200 coming out, not 120.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The 200 that went in about eight weeks ago were not in the same batch as the 120 that came out two weeks ago.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know. That is obvious.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think it is correct to state there are 200 going in and only 120 coming out.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No, and that is not what I said either, to be fair.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I think the Minister for his statement. I am going through my questions one by one.
Regarding the €8 million that is going towards the new Garda aircraft, namely, the fixed-wing plane and one helicopter, were are we getting the pilots from?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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An Garda Síochána are going to train the pilots. Actually, I am sorry. It will be the Air Corps.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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They are not going to be part of the Garda.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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They come from the Air Corps.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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That is interesting. Is the Garda national crime and intelligence unit, which is not often discussed, for good reason, particularly well resourced and what is its current operational status? How many people are working there? What are they working on? Is there an overlap with military intelligence?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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No. There is a unit based out of Dublin Castle. There is another unit based in Clyde House. The national crime and intelligence unit is pretty well resourced. Whatever resources it wants, I will go out of my way to provide them. I cannot give the details on how many staff are in there at present, but in terms of the work that is going on and the manner in which they are able to confront crime and get intelligence, the unit is doing a good job. I do not have the details on how many are in each unit. If the Deputy wants, I will try and get that for him.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It would be good to know.
Regarding the Garda traffic watch, which is the system that came online in August, the Minister stated in the reply to a parliamentary question asked by Liam Quaide that there were 4,885 incidents created on the PULSE system from that new system. There were only 60 fixed charges, only 30 of which resulted in the payment of fines. That seem like a bit of a discrepancy. Are there staff problems?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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What timeline are they? I would be surprised if there were only 60 fixed charges in respect of the 4,885.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Yes, 4,885 with 60 fixed charges and 30 resulting in a payment of fines since 8 August.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure about that.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It was the Minister's response.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot give him the detail as to why. What was the 4,885?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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There were 4,885 people who notified to the system. This is an online system where people give their own dashcam footage, which is then supposed to be investigated.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That would not necessarily mean a significant majority of them would translate into fixed charges.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Not a significant majority, but one would imagine more than 60, and certainly more than 30 payments resulting from that. There was quite a big fanfare when this was launched. It could be an asset. It does not seem like it is resourced to the extent it could be, given the outcome.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will have a look again, but we cannot have a situation where we are going out of our way to ensure every complaint results in a fixed-charge fine being involved.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We have to be reasonable with people.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I am going to be very reasonable, but we are talking about 4,885 resulting in 60 fixed charges and 30 payments of fines. There is reasonable and then there is whatever the opposite of that is.
I want to ask about policing in Dublin city centre. Obviously, it is something that is really important to me. I have had this discussion with the Minister lots of times. There has definitely been an increase of gardaí in the commercial city centre.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for acknowledging that.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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There absolutely has been and it has been very welcome. The shops and other businesses find that very welcome. One issue coming from it is that a lot of the gardaí are young. That is just the nature of it, giving they have just come out of Templemore, but the resultant displacement is having a real impact on the communities surrounding the centre. I was in Frederick Court apartments beside the Gate Theatre the other day. People are being pushed from O'Connell Street. It is not that they are up to no good, but they are in various states of vulnerability. They may be taking drugs or engaging in antisocial behaviour. It seems that as long as someone is out of the city centre, it is okay. The communities around the centre are being impacted.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I hope that does not happen.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is happening.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that the increase in the Garda resources in Dublin city centre has involved very large numbers of the people passing-out from Templemore in the past two tranches being allocated to Store Street and Pearse Street. In fairness, part of the issue Deputy Kelly and others may have a concern about is the question of why they are all going to Dublin, but there is a plan there. That should not reduce the numbers doing work elsewhere in the county of Dublin.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The county of Dublin is one thing, but the surrounding inner city communities, north and south, have all spoken about an increase in the displacement of crime and the entities involved in it. We definitely have more Garda cars, but they are driving past.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We can agree on this: we need to recruit as many gardaí as we can.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The more we have, the more confidence it is going to give to the local communities. We are in an unusual position in this country in that every community, including his and mine, wants to see more gardaí. Whatever constituency or community we go to, people want to see more gardaí on the street. Some countries do not have that and the people want to see the police force out of the area. It is commendable that we have a situation where everyone wants to see gardaí.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is really commendable. That was not the case when I was growing up but it is the case now. The Garda has done an amazing job.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Particularly in terms of the small area policing initiative that happened about ten years ago. There is a problem now, though, in that, because we have asked for more gardaí, they have been sent to the city centre and the residential communities around it are really feeling the impact. Will the Minister take a look at this?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Relating to the health diversion programme that is about to be announced by the Minister's Department and the Department of Health, when a person is found in possession of drugs, he or she is going to be diverted to a health facility as opposed to being sent to court. That is brilliant. It will be at the discretion of the individual garda who encounters that person. What level of training has been involved? The health diversion programme is to be initiated imminently, is my understanding.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is an important issue. Regarding training, gardaí get good training down in Templemore. As with teachers, we cannot expect gardaí to solve every societal problem. As to how this scheme will operate, the proposal is that it will try to divert people with addiction issues away from the criminal justice system and towards the health system. The Deputy may disagree with me, but given the level of training required for that, there needs to be aligned co-operation between the Garda, the drug treatment programmes, counsellors and the HSE. I was recently in Limerick. There is a very good proposal, called the community access support team, or CAST, between the Garda in Limerick and the HSE. If a person is identified as being in trouble or having emotional issues, which leads to the Garda being called, the intervention is through the Garda and the HSE. There is no great desire among gardaí in this country to keep bringing people before the courts. They want to ensure people can have their needs addressed.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I fully agree with the Minister on this. I am referring not only to the training that takes place in Templemore, but also to continuing professional development training. This will be a stark change in practice for many gardaí. It used to be the case that people found with drugs were taken to a police station but now they will be rediverted to a health facility. This requires training. The discretion in this is with the individual garda on the ground. I would like to see some degree of a training budget. I would like to understand how this will be enacted. I would also like some oversight because what I do not want to see, and I hope it does not happen but it is better to say it and be in front of it rather than regretting it afterwards, is overpolicing of some areas whereby certain areas get better access to discretion while predominantly more working-class communities do not. I want to see what oversight is built into this mechanism and I would like to see the data.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I hope this will not happen and I think it is unlikely. This is my assessment in respect of it. I have no doubt this project will need to be tinkered with and changed as it progresses but I welcome the fact that Deputy Gannon agrees it is a worthwhile policy to start.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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All I can say is that I have seen the CAST project in Limerick and we need to roll it out throughout the country. I hope this will operate in the same way, and that we have people such as drug counsellors working in collaboration with the Garda. Gardaí will have to know where they are going to refer somebody. This will put in place a system for gardaí to refer somebody, and people will be aware they will have to engage in some health treatment. There still has to be the alternative. People can avoid the criminal justice system but they need to go down another route, which is the health diversion programme.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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We have spoken about the fact that at present gun crime is almost non-existent in the State. This is very welcome and it is to the great credit of the gardaí who put themselves in harm's way during the feud. This does not mean that violence has gone away. The violence we see in our communities at present, and the drug-related intimidation, is horrific. We are speaking about people being brought into this at all ages. Older people are being intimidated for the drug debt of a son or daughter and kids are being brought into it as mules. I welcome the fact we do not have guns any more but a consequence of this is that it has gone far more into the shadows and it is a lot more insidious. I do not necessarily have a question on this.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. Five or six weeks ago I launched with the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, a programme to try to give confidence to people to be able to confront the harassment and intimidation they get from drug dealers. I have been contacted by people in my constituency who have said their child is being threatened, and they are asking what they do. It is very hard to give them advice. This process is putting in place a mechanism for people to contact the Garda. There will be support services there. It is always difficult but it will get more manageable for people if they know there is a support network around them.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is the DRIVE programme and I think it will be very good.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is very good.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his very detailed presentation, which underscores the Government's strong support for An Garda Síochána and the great work it is doing. The GRA came before the committee last week and spoke about the post-2013 pension scheme, which was introduced for newly recruited gardaí at that stage, as being a difficulty for recruitment and retention. It is not just an issue for An Garda Síochána. Within the Minister's brief the Prison Service is affected in the same way. It is also similar for members of Dublin Fire Brigade and some nurses. Is there potential for this to be looked at in the context of recruitment and retention?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Brabazon. I am limited in what I can do in respect of trying to change the pension schemes that operate for certain public sector workers. I have listened to the GRA in respect of it. I know it is not as attractive a scheme as the previous one was. It may be having an impact on recruitment but what I think is probably having more of an impact is the competitive nature of the economy and the fact there are more jobs available. It is hard to attract people in. In terms of resignations, however, I do not think people are leaving the force because of it. The GRA may disagree with me but if we look at the numbers when it comes to resignations from the force, 136 members, or 1% of the force, resigned in 2024. If we look around the world - we could take the PSNI as an example - we will see that there are generally much higher percentage levels of resignation from a force than 1%. I hope it is not having an impact. I would like to make terms and conditions as favourable as possible to ensure we get more gardaí.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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A number of gardaí are suspended, and the period of suspension ranges from three years to seven years. Is there anything we can do to speed up the disciplinary process so that whoever is going through the disciplinary process is either back to work as a member of An Garda Síochána or the alternative option is taken under the process?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Recently I introduced a new statutory instrument in respect of disciplinary rules and performance rules in An Garda Síochána, and this sets out a new procedure. I certainly want to see any procedure expedited and dealt with as quickly as possible. Any person suspended from their employment deserves to have the allegation against them determined as quickly as possible. I note what Deputy Brabazon has said on the number of gardaí who are suspended for significant periods of time. Any employee is entitled to have an allegation against them determined promptly. The other side of it is that if serious allegations are made against gardaí, it puts the Commissioner in a very difficult position. If serious allegations are made against a teacher or many people in employment, they are put on what is referred to as gardening leave while the allegation is investigated and determined. I certainly want to see any allegation against a member of An Garda Síochána determined promptly and finalised so that if the person is acquitted, if I can use that word, of any allegation against them they are back to work. If they are not, however, there have to be consequences.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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The training allowance in Templemore is €354 per week. In the context of the recruitment age being increased from 35 to 50, between the ages of 35 and 50 people are generally established in life with responsibilities such as rent, mortgages, children and school fees. Does the Minister think he might be in a position to recruit more people within this specific age cohort with a higher level of allowance?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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At the two attestations I have been at, I was impressed by the fact that some of the people were clearly over 35 years of age. There is a benefit to this. People are well able to do Garda work after the age of 35 so there is no reason we should not be recruiting them. As Deputy Brabazon has said, the allowance is €354 at present. I want to see how we will get on in terms of the recruitment campaign we ran recently. I am hopeful that for the next intake into Templemore we will see the type of numbers we saw on 10 March, when we had 201 people starting. On 9 June we had 170 starting. We will see on 25 September and 25 November how many numbers we get. If we get more than 200 in each of them, we will be doing well and it will be a good sign.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for his opening statement. On the programme for Government, and the target the Government has of 5,000 new Garda recruits over the next five years, how confident is the Minister of hitting this target?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is a fairly straight question, in fairness to Deputy Ward. It is my ambition to get to 5,000 but I will not get 1,000 this year. I am dependent on getting more than 1,000 in the next four years. The number at present in An Garda Síochána is 14,227. We also have the Garda Reserve and Garda staff who do lot of the work gardaí used to do. We are getting more gardaí available. I am hopeful about it. I am more positive about it than I was on the day I started, to be frank, because of the recruitment campaign.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has mentioned figures today. His target was 800 to 1,000 recruits per year but he will not hit that target this year based on the figures he has given.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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So far there are 370, with two more intakes with approximately 200 per intake. That would bring it to 770, which is substantially lower than the 1,000 per year needed to get to the 5,000, unless the Government's lifetime is longer than five years.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am hopeful that next year we will get more than 1,000.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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How will the Minister get to this? I was listening to the figure of 6,700 that was mentioned. This is an awful lot of people who are interested in becoming gardaí.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Last week I raised with the GRA the concern that a number of these people could lose interest because they might have found new careers in the meantime.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Minister doing to speed this up?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The good news is that the 170 who started on 9 June include some of the 6,700. This is a good sign that they are being processed quickly.
We have been expediting and changing the vetting process. People were critical about this. It used to be the case that you could not start in Templemore until you were fully vetted. Vetting took a long time, particularly for people who lived in other countries for a while. We are now letting people start in Templemore before vetting. They will still be fully vetted at the end of the process but letting them start before vetting can at least expedite it. We just need to put political pressure on those concerned, and that is what I am doing with the Commissioner and those in the Garda responsible for recruitment. It is a question of getting recruits in as fast as possible. We need to start saying that policing is a very worthwhile career and a job worth doing. It is a very interesting job by comparison with many others.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Based on the average, how many of the 200 in the next intake will pass?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the statistics to hand but the majority pass. There used to be issues with the fitness test and we have tried to make changes in respect of that. The majority pass. I would certainly be concerned if large tranches of entrants to Templemore did not pass. The fitness test used to be a problem and it was looked into and changed. We need to keep examining this to ensure that, if there are obstacles, we remove them, while at the same time ensuring the quality of people coming into the force.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Let me go back to what I said originally. It is lovely when running for election and just after that to say we will have 5,000 new gardaí on the ground, but I have a concern about this. Everything going well, with all entrants passing, the number will be lower than 4,000.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Let us wait and see.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Hopefully, I will still be here in a couple of years. The Deputy may be able to say to me that we only achieved 3,000-----
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Nobody in this room-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am wary of saying it but I have funding for 1,000 new gardaí each year. I am not going to go around to people saying we probably will not recruit 1,000. Deputy Kelly knows what I am saying.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Nobody in this room wishes that the Minister will not meet the targets-----
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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-----because they are absolutely needed.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is a hard job, though. I have funding for 1,000. Usually, the problem is trying to get funding out of the Department of public expenditure. I have that funding and I am not going to change it. The funding is for 1,000 and I am not going back to the Minister for public expenditure, Deputy Chambers, to say it looks like we are going to hit only 600. I want to keep the funding for 1,000.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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If the Minister falls behind on the target, is there capacity to catch up?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I hope so. That may give rise to another issue in that if 1,200 people are interested each year, we will have to expand Templemore and consider the other avenues available.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to move on to transport. The Minister said there is an additional €10 million available for it. In the whole region that includes my area, Clondalkin, and Ballyfermot, there was a serious incident and only one Garda car available on the night. Will the €10 million be sufficient to see not only more Garda cars at each station but also gardaí to drive them so they will be available?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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As of 31 May, the Garda has had 3,672 vehicles – that is, 2,705 cars, 658 vans, 151 motorcycles, 98 4x4s and 68 other vehicles. The Garda fleet is in good condition. The number of vehicles is up from 3,112 in December 2020, so we have seen an 18% increase in less than five years. Obviously, we need to see more Garda vehicles and we need gardaí available for them. The number of vehicles in the fleet is increasing.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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In the real world, where I live, many constituents have contacted me over incidents. These might not be big or headline incidents but they are to those who pick up the phone to call the gardaí. The gardaí themselves say they do not have a car available on the night, and that is for big areas like Clondalkin or Lucan. This is an issue and it needs to be addressed.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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If it is a serious matter, the gardaí will get there immediately. Obviously, there is grading. When a 999 call is made-----
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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There has to be triage.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The calls have to be triaged, but if an incident is serious the gardaí will come.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It might not be serious in the grand scheme of things but it is to the constituent who picks up the phone.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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On redeployment, the Minister has mentioned what occurs when something serious happens. There is a Garda overtime budget of €150 million for the coming year. How much of that will be spent on tackling antisocial behaviour and organised crime? How much will be spent on policing festivals and the likes of Ireland and Dublin matches?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It is used across the board. The overtime budget is fairly significant. The overtime budget for 2025 is just over €150 million, which represents an increase of nearly 60% over the previous figure, €94 million. Expenditure on overtime so far this year is ahead of profile by 26%, or nearly €19 million. Sixty percent of the budget had been spent at the end of May, on nearly 2 million overtime hours. Expenditure is just under €90 million. Expenditure in April was particularly high, at just under €30 million, or 20% of the overall budget. The budget for overtime is increasing. Obviously, it is the responsibility of the Commissioner, as Accounting Officer, to ensure it is kept under control. We do not get involved in saying we will provide an overtime budget, but only for a particular type of work.
The policing of festivals and matches can also be done by the Garda Reserve. I want to see more recruitment into the Garda Reserve so gardaí will be available for core policing.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to my last point, which Deputy Gannon alluded to. The increased police presence in Dublin city is welcome. I have seen it myself.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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However, sometimes it is often a question of the more suburban areas of Dublin. When the very serious incident happened, many gardaí in my area and surrounding areas were taken to the inner city to have a presence, leaving our areas with a dearth. I have mentioned several times that if I am aware of redeployment from my area when there is a serious incident elsewhere, the drug dealers, including those dealing openly, will be aware of it too and behave accordingly. That happens.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That should not be happening because, as I have said to the Deputy before, the increased numbers are due to a decision made to put many new recruits into the city centre to have a greater sense of safety there. In fairness, Assistant Commissioner Paul Cleary deserves a lot of credit for that. This deployment should not be affecting areas such as the Deputy’s or mine, but it all comes back to the fact that we need higher numbers. If we have higher numbers, we will have more police on the ground in the Deputy’s area and everyone else’s.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for not being here for the Minister’s opening statement. I have just a couple of points to raise, the first of which concerns the courts. When it comes to the Family Court and the establishment-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are dealing with the Garda section first, so-----
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Are we still on the first Vote?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Will I go through the rest?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that the Minister go through the rest of the programmes, and after he does so we will let the other members in. I will let in Deputy Butterly first, followed by Deputy O’Sullivan, and they may ask questions in respect of the Garda Vote if they wish.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will go through the rest of the Votes now.
Vote 24, concerning my Department, has a gross Estimate provision of €2.723 billion. The Revised Estimate for this Vote was already approved in April, and the purpose today is to agree the further Revised Estimate for the Department’s Vote. The further Revised Estimate for the Department reflects the transfer of responsibility for cybersecurity policy, which I mentioned earlier.
Bringing responsibility for cybersecurity under the remit of my Department ensures proper alignment of national security infrastructure. It is appropriate that this be under the Department of justice. That is the only change to the justice Vote previously agreed by Dáil Éireann.
There have been other transfers of functions. The transfer of responsibility for integration policy, international protection and Ukraine accommodation services to my Department happened on 1 May 2025. This was the largest transfer of functions across government, in terms of both the number of staff who transferred and the budget of over €2 billion. Following that transfer, the Revised Estimates Volume for the Department is now set out across three programmes: criminal justice, civil justice, and international protection and Ukraine accommodation services.
Funding to support domestic, sexual and gender-based violence services has increased to €70 million.
The National Office for Community Safety was established following the commencement of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024. A sum of €9.5 million was allocated in budget 2025 for that office to support the community safety partnerships.
A considerable investment of €25 million has been included to support the delivery of immigration services, to streamline and speed up the international protection process through investment in the International Protection Appeals Tribunal, and to prepare us for the new international protection Bill that I have introduced.
Youth justice funding has been increased by €2.6 million to €33 million. Funding of over €21 million to the Probation Service will provide for additional staff to do its excellent work. Additional funding of just over €6 million was provided to support the work to establish the Gambling Regulatory Authority of Ireland.
Funding for the Legal Aid Board amounted to €54 million in 2024 and I am pleased that an additional €10 million is going to be included in the Revised Estimate for 2025, bringing its allocation to over €64 million. That is what I wanted to say in respect of the justice Vote.
Then there is the prisons Vote. On Vote 21, the prisons Vote, the gross Estimate in 2025 is €525 million, which includes a capital allocation of €53 million for the year. In June of this year, as we know, there is a significant number of people in prison. There are 5,400 people in prison, which is a high number.
We are making key investments in 2025 to support the prisons in doing the work they do, including €18.5 million to recruit 300 additional staff, and a further €6.2 million to fund 130,000 additional hours. We are also increasing the non-pay allocations in 2025 to strengthen rehabilitation, improve medical care and invest in staff training, etc. We have allocated €53 million in capital funding under the prisons Vote this year, with the bulk of that, €46.5 million, going towards our building and refurbishment programme. As part of this, 159 new prison spaces have been delivered since the start of 2024 and a further 100 will be delivered in 2025. These investments are essential to ensure we up our prison space. We need to be increasing prison space significantly. We have not done so, notwithstanding the fact our population has increased significantly.
We have also committed €4 million in capital funding to ICT improvements in the prisons and €2.5 million to fleet upgrades. I acknowledge the excellent work and professionalism of the Irish Prison Service and the staff within it, who do excellent work. Since I was appointed, I have visited five prisons. I am going to visit them all. They do very good work in difficult circumstances.
I will now look at the final Votes I am looking for approval for today. On the courts Vote, a total Estimate in gross terms of almost €199.8 million is being provided for the Courts Service under Vote 22. The allocation of a further €2 million allows for the progression of the courts modernisation programme. The Courts Service modernisation programme is the ten-year programme that will deliver a new operating model for the Courts Service.
I am committed to driving the modernisation and digital first agenda across the entire justice sector and I welcome the commitment set out by the Courts Service to maximise the use of digital technologies. Some €1.4 million in funding has also been provided for up to 35 additional staff to directly support the work of new members of the Judiciary, which will future-proof judicial supports in light of current backlogs, expected demands and future reforms. A further €2 million in extra support has been provided to meet the additional operational costs across the Courts Service.
The allocation for the Data Protection Commission, Vote 44, includes an increase of €1 million, a small increase. The funding allocation in 2015 was €3.65 million. The 2025 budget allocation allows for the appointment of two new commissioners as well as the recruitment of additional staff.
That is an overview of all the Votes we are asking for approval for today, and I will take whatever questions the committee has.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. Deputy Butterly can refer to any of the Votes in her questions.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I apologise to the Minister. I was going from back to front rather than front to back, and I did not mean to rush him.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That is no problem. The Deputy did not.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Thank goodness. On the Courts Service, is provision made there for the family courts?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We enacted legislation last year, the Family Courts Act 2024. An implementation body is in place to ensure that what is set out in the legislation is implemented. It is not within that funding, but once the report of the implementation body comes to me and sets out how we need to implement the changes made under the Family Courts Act, there will be funding available for that in respect of what needs to be done. I can assure the Deputy of that. The proposal is to ensure that family courts are places where there will be support and wrap-around services for people who come. If you go to the family court, you know you will have a mediation service available if needs be, there will be support services around it as well, and there will be judges who are expert in family law. That funding will be provided but first of all, we need to ensure that the implementation plan is in place. That body is reporting to me soon.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Will that entail not just additional judicial positions but also possibly capital funding for new buildings or spaces? Some courthouses can accommodate, some cannot.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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A huge project that has been spoken about for many years, and I am determined to see it commence, is Hammond Lane, which will be the new family law courts for the Dublin area. At present, if you go by Dolphin House, you will see people out on the streets in totally inappropriate conditions trying to deal with their family law disputes. Most people do not end up going to court but the one time people do end up going to court is if they are involved in a family law issue, which affects so much of the population. It is where most people meet our courts and it is important that there are proper services there with proper consultation rooms, availability of services, judges who are well qualified, and in an environment that makes it easier for people to settle and resolve their disputes, as opposed to fighting it out and getting a judge-imposed settlement instead of an agreed settlement.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Does that funding allow for any restoration of fees for barristers? It is something they have been campaigning long and hard for and there is an exodus of barristers at this stage.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I know. I am well aware of it. I have met the Bar Council. It is in the programme for Government that we will reinstate the cuts that were made to the criminal legal aid scheme. I have contacted Ministers and said this should be done. I will not say it is above my pay grade but it involves alignment and agreement with other Departments. It is something that is in the programme for Government and, as Minister for justice, I would like to see it done.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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On the community safety partnerships, this is very welcome. We saw the benefits of having the Drogheda implementation board in County Louth. Does the Minister think sufficient funding is being made available? It is the very moment in which we can bring all the different stakeholders together and have a very positive impact. As any of my colleagues here have said, at ground level we have coercion and intimidation. We need all the eyes and ears of every community group, retailer and force within an area working together. The community safety partnership is the driver for that.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I agree. I will be signing the regulations in respect of the community safety partnerships very shortly but €9.5 million has been allocated in budget 2025 for the office to support community safety partnerships and the community safety fund. The fund, totalling €4 million in 2025, directs proceeds from the Criminal Assets Bureau. It is an extremely important part of trying to ensure that communities can deal with issues unique to their area that need to be focused on.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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How will those funds be allocated? Will it be on a project-by-project basis or will it be each individual community safety partnership applying for the funds?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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It would be applying for the funds. That is what is there at present, whereby you apply for funds in terms of assets from the Criminal Assets Bureau. Local projects make their applications in respect of it.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Okay. At the beginning, some of my colleagues also brought this up. The GRA, prior to the election, said that over 90% of An Garda Síochána, the Irish Prison Service, Defence Forces and the fire brigades were very unsatisfied and concerned in regard to their pensions - obviously, whoever was recruited after 2013. Some 73% of those believed they would have to find alternative employment. We had the GRA in here last week talking about how low morale is. If that is the feeling in the force and over 70% of the force believe they are going to have to find alternative employment to help them when they retire, and if that message is getting out, surely it is a barrier to recruitment, never mind just a barrier to retention in the force.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure if I could revert and reintroduce the pension that existed prior to 2013 it would make the job more attractive. I do not think there is any doubt about that, but there are limitations in what the Government and I can do. There were reasons that pension changed in 2013. It is going to cost a very significant sum to change that because we cannot just change it in respect of gardaí. We would have to change it in respect of other public sector workers as well. That is not something I can give the Deputy any satisfaction on.
Obviously, the GRA does its job very effectively and professionally, but it also has to be pointed out that there is a lot of job satisfaction in An Garda Síochána as well. Today, we had the Little Blue Heroes in around the Houses. The Garda started that charity. Gardaí were here doing an excellent job.
I meet a lot of gardaí. Everyone I meet, I am sure they have issues and complaints if I sat down with them, but I have to say they are outstanding public servants. They are doing an excellent job and they regard their job as a form of public service, which it is.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister in this evening. It beats meeting him at a parliamentary party meeting. We can speak a bit more frankly here.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Deputy might get answers here.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to road safety and the RSA. It is on foot of a parliamentary question I asked a number of months ago about the number of offences where people were caught using their mobile phone, which had increased. It was approximately 18,000 people in 2022. In 2023, it was 19,000. In 2024, it was up to approximately 22,000. In March-April time, figures for 2025 to that date illustrate that nearly 7,000 have been caught committing that offence. If that bears fruit for the full year, it will be in the high 20,000. I regularly see people using their phones, with iPads on their laps and people playing with the different apps on fancy screens in their cars every week when I drive up to Dublin. It is quite concerning. I have no doubt it is partially responsible for the increase in the number accidents and deaths that we are having our roads. I wish to ask about additional investment. Technology has a role to play here. Will there be additional resources put into the Garda and the road traffic unit to detain people and deter them from using their phones?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy. It is a dangerous thing for any person to be looking at a phone. Whatever about being on the phone, looking at stuff on the screen and being on the phone are highly dangerous things to do. It is important that the message gets out there. Deaths are caused by it. Momentarily, people stop concentrating and are looking at something and, before they know it, they are in a crash.
On the numbers of detections, they are going up. This is quite significant. I am attending a committee with the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, about road safety. We need to keep relentlessly working on the figures to try to ensure that the number of deaths on the roads does not increase. With the population increasing, it is another challenge. When we see the improvement on the roads and see the greater Garda policing in the area, that is what is going to deter people. The only way we are going to stop it is by people realising that there is a good likelihood of them being caught. If they are caught, there is going be a consequence, whether it is a penalty or another impact for them.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I hope going forward that gardaí or the RSA would be provided with additional technologies to detect people. It is something that, going forward, is going to become a normal part of road safety.
I have a second issue that I raised last week with the Garda Síochána witnesses. We all recognise that everybody has the right to protest. The Garda representatives did not have a figure for me last week. There are many protests and different types of protests. The majority of them, let us be fair, are safe and people are out for the right motivation, but some of them are not so safe. Is there any idea what these protests actually cost the Department of justice every year? I point to the particularly violent ones that we saw during the Covid-19 years and so on. Is there any idea of what the cost of those is annually?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We have significantly increased funding for public order policing over the past year. We have invested in a water cannon and further fleets. It is costing us money for public order policing. As the Deputy is recognising, however, we need to recognise the right of people to protest. If we look at the weekend, the Garda did a very good job. There were two ongoing protests. One was a group of people protesting about immigration. Another was a group of people protesting against the people who were protesting about immigration and who were supportive of immigration. It was potentially an explosive environment. The Garda policed it extremely well and it passed off peacefully. There is money spent on it, but what we cannot do is say this is costing us €50 million a year and we are going to limit the number of protests that can take place. People have a right to protest, they are entitled to do it, but that right has to be exercised peacefully. If it is the case that protests become violent, the Garda is prepared for it. There has been significant investment over the past while in public order policing. Those facilities will be available for gardaí should anyone be foolish enough to try to turn a protest into something violent.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I said at the outset that I respect everybody's right to protest, but I should have clarified. It is more about the hours and the overtime. I am not saying that this is not necessary; it is. However, when we are in here complaining about the lack of community policing and gardaí on the beat, I am trying to frame it in that context as to what it is as an overall proportion of the Garda budget. If the Minister does not have figures, I would love if the Garda had some analysis on this.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask them about that. We will try to see how much is devoted to policing protests.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If they wanted to include large sporting events and all as well-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The only thing I would say is that, when it comes to concerts, the Garda can charge for that. It is entitled to charge a promoter for the extra resources the Garda is required to put on because of a concert. It is not as though we do not get money back from any type of extra policing that is required. When there are concerts, they can charge the promoter. Obviously when it comes to protests, you cannot charge the people involved.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question about Cork Prison. It is something I have raised with the Minister privately over the past few weeks. I have long lobbied for an increase in the prison capacity that we have. As the Minister alluded to earlier, our population is increasing anyway. It is an evitable consequence of that. In Cork Prison, the last figure I have is that it was at 122% capacity a couple of weeks back. That is not sustainable, fair or safe. In terms of additional capacity at Cork Prison, we are talking about an extension to the existing prison, because there are political detractors locally who are trying to make a political issue out of this to say we are trying to build another new prison. Will the Minister clarify for the record and for people at home how advanced plans are?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I visited Cork Prison - the new prison - and it is a very fine prison. I am aware of what the Deputy is saying about overcrowding in prisons. It is a challenge that I have. The only way we are going to be able to deal with it is by getting further prison spaces. I have proposal that we will redevelop. It will be part of the old prison site. It is just going to be an extension of Cork Prison. That could provide us with 230 male spaces and 100 female spaces.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be possible for the Minister to deal with the Irish Prison Service and ask if there could be any possible community element as part of any future development? There is significant ground there as well.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I will certainly ask that. In fairness to the Prison Service, it builds prisons on time and on budget. It did it with Cork Prison and Limerick Prison, both male and female. When I am on the topic, and I apologise for giving a suggestion, Chair, because you have enough on your plate, but if the committee gets a chance, it should visit Limerick Prison. It is a fantastic prison, particularly the women's prison. It is a real example of how-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We have agreed that we will visit a prison. We have not determined what one. That will be considered.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have one last question. Garda vetting is a big bone of contention of mine. It is an operational thing for the Garda. Is there any way that we can streamline-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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There is work going on in the Department that I have repeatedly enquired about what we can do to speed up Garda vetting. I am waiting for a report on it. In light of what the Deputy said, I will certainly raise it at the meeting I will have with the senior Department officials this Thursday. I raise it every time, but something needs to be done. We do not want this repetitive thing where somebody has to apply at the same for vetting when they have already been vetted.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do any of the other members want to come in on the additional programmes? I will come in at the end.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will be quick because I did take up a bit of the Minister's time earlier. On the vetting, I wrote to every Minister and asked where there had been changes in vetting procedures where this new vetting process had been brought in by An Garda Síochána. There is deep concern among the public. It did not operate anywhere else.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy asking about the vetting for new members of An Garda Síochána?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes, I should have been clear. It is the vetting for new recruits. This is done by An Garda Síochána. Has the Minister been made aware of any issues that have arisen as a result of this change in vetting? Are there any cases whereby someone has commenced training and subsequently not come to end of their training because the vetting process decided that they were not suitable?
That is the first question. I asked other Departments whether they actually did the vetting like An Garda Síochána was doing for new recruits and whether it had been changed in line with what was being done in An Garda Síochána, and none of them did. I will move on from An Garda Síochána.
Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan raised the issue of prisons. Preparatory work costs a lot of money because it is not everywhere you can put a prison. Let us call a spade a spade. Has any preparatory work been done on where future prison provision will be? We will need more prisons. It takes a considerable time to do that. Has any preparatory work been done on locations for prisons or extensions of prisons?
My third question is on the issue of immigration. We can see placement of international protection applicants across various LEAs. Is there any assessment of the methodology for how international protection applicants are located across the country based on the LEA or the geographical saturation of such applicants in one area over another? In other words, to use layman's language, is there fair distribution geographically?
Finally I have a very direct question on a very recent issue. There was huge controversy in my constituency, of which everyone in the room will be aware, regarding a hotel in Roscrea which was the site of huge protests. This was because the hotel was the last one in the area and it had been signed up to host international protection applicants. The protests went on for a significant period, so much so that, pretty ridiculously, the Government put forward a six-figure sum to look at the possibility of buying a closed hotel in the town, which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, and I said that. However, in recent times - obviously this is none of the Minister's business - the owner of the hotel has applied to add 60 rooms to the building. This hotel is being used for international protection applicants at the moment. The Minister's predecessor and other members of Government said that a protocol had been put in place whereby they would no longer be taking any hotel that was the last hotel in a given town or geographical location, etc. I am not asking or expecting the Minister to get involved in a contractual situation. A decision was made at Government level and announced by the Taoiseach that this would not happen again. Is that still the case? In that scenario, the hotel would return to its original use, which is as a hotel, and the community would get back the only place they had for weddings, birthdays, christenings, communions and confirmations. Will the Minister confirm that this is still the case?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy asked whether I am aware of any problems with vetting of a person within An Garda Síochána. The answer is that I am not but if there was an issue, I probably would not get to hear about. As Minister for justice, I would not expect to-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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But the vetting procedures were changed while the Minister was in office.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Just let me finish. Let us say somebody had started in Templemore last February and the vetting rules were changed. If, as a result of that, a person was identified as not being suitable, the Garda is not going to come to me as Minister for justice and say, "There was a bloke who-----"
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The rules were changed on the Minister's watch.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Be realistic, Deputy. I am not going to be told about the fact that somebody does not get through vetting in Templemore.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not just talking about one person.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I suspect the Deputy is aware of a problem that he has not told me about. If he wants to tell me about it, he should do so.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No, that would be individualising it. It is plural, not singular.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I am not aware of a problem. There is a benefit to speeding up the process in order that we can get more gardaí out there.
Regarding prisons, I got permission from Government recently to bypass what was previously referred to as the public sector spending rules to speed up the process of building 940 units in prisons. I am hoping to see 670 spaces in the Midlands, Mountjoy, Castelreagh, and Cloverhill prisons. I want to see a new block of 100 spaces in Wheatfield. Redevelopment of the old Cork prison will accommodate 230 males and 100 females.
The Deputy asked if we have looked at any other sites. The Deputy is right when he says that building new prisons can be problematic so we are better off to stick to the prison-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not asking about locations.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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-----sites that we have. Thornton Hall, however, is a place where I want to see work commenced for the construction of a new prison.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I agree. I welcome that.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I want to see this done within the term of the Government.
Regarding local authority areas, on my Department's website one can see the number of people in international protection accommodation. At present, there are 33,000. This figure is broken down by local authority areas. Some of them probably do not carry as many as others. There is one I can think of not far from where I live that does not have as many as it should.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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This is something I have looked at and I will do something about it. The Department and my officials are trying to balance things.
Regarding the last hotel in Roscrea, I want to get out of the business of going around trying to rent hotels for international protection accommodation services. The decision was made last week to buy Citywest Hotel on the basis that it is no longer going to be a hotel in the short term but to use it as a centre for the screening process and to deal with it. It is not a good idea for me to be going around to all parts of the country trying to rent hotels.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Especially the last one in an area.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That still stands, Deputy. There is no reason why that would not happen. As Minister with responsibility for the area now, I will not go around looking for new hotels to start putting in international protection applicants.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So the rule still stands?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Whether it is a rule or not, I am the person who is making decisions in this area. I do not want to find myself in a situation where I am going around looking for new hotels. Obviously, it is a different situation if a hotel has been used already for accommodating Ukrainians or IPAS accommodation. There may be reasons why we would want to continue that. I have already terminated nine contracts in respect of IPAS accommodation. Let us be frank about it, what has really happened is that at this time last year the State was chasing after sites but now sites are chasing after the State. It has changed. The big driver for this, and this can change rapidly, is the number of people coming in seeking international protection. I have got to try to do something to reduce the numbers coming in as well. I know that people do not like me saying that but the more people who come in, the more I have to go around looking for accommodation, the more of an impact it has and the more undermining it is of the excellent integration work that is being done in this country.
Did the Deputy ask me another question?
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I see money has been allocated for netting to prevent drone drops. Have any alternative approaches been considered, such as the antidrone technology that is used in Dublin Airport, for example?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Steel netting is used in prisons. The antidrone technology used at Dublin Airport has not been considered by the Prison Service. As I am sure the Deputy is aware, people getting drugs and other things into prisons using drones is a problem. The Prison Service recognises that it is an issue and it is bringing in measures to stop it. In some cases the steel netting is being burned through. It constantly needs to be updated and we need to review what we are doing on it.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a reason the Prison Service has not considered this technology? To me, it seems like a no-brainer. If the drones cannot fly over a prison, they cannot drop anything in.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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There could be an issue with residential areas and hospitals if drones are being flown in those areas. I will look into the matter. I will bring it to the attention of the Prison Service.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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On prisons again, in May of last year a decision was made to repurpose the progression unit in Mountjoy. I know the Minister has spoken about increasing capacity but the closure of this unit has left a big gap in the Prison Service. It is one of the units that can lead to the decrease in recidivism. Is there any plan or will to reopen or repurpose the progression unit in Mountjoy back to what it was?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I do not have the information here but I think there is a proposal in respect of this. I will come back to the Deputy if I am wrong about it but I think I saw earlier when I was preparing for the meeting that there was an issue in respect of the progression unit. There is a lot of good work going on in prisons that we do not hear about that often. The education options provided in prisons are very positive.
There is a lot of good counselling work done in prisons. I am very impressed by the type of work that is going on there.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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On the counselling work, since the Minister brought it up, in my previous role as the mental health spokesperson, I raised this a number of times. At one stage, there was a two-year waiting list for somebody to see a psychologist. There was 153 days on average for a psychological appointment in the training unit in the Dóchas. The average wait was 893 days, so that is more than two years for an appointment. Have there been any additional resources to cut the waiting list back? Excuse the pun, but when somebody is in prison, he or she is a captive audience. This is somebody who will be able to go appointments and meetings while he or she is in there. That needs to be looked at.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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There is a permanent director of care and rehabilitation in the IPS and there is an acting executive clinical lead. They have been in place since January 2024. Progress is being made on critical recommendations, as outlined in the health needs assessment. I was also in Clover Hill. There is unit in the Central Mental Hospital in Portrane, which is a stunning new building, that I am trying to get opened. In fairness, the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, is working with me on it as well as the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Butler. That could provide valuable space for people who are in the prisons with significant mental health challenges.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Currently, there are 5,415 people in our system. Some 400 of those are sleeping on mattresses. The Minister is talking about bringing 940 places back into our prison system. If he achieves that aim, it effectively means that, at that point, our prisons are operating at just about 98% capacity. It does not sound very ambitious.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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That 900 figure the Deputy mentioned is in the short term. The proposal up to 2031 is that there will be 1,500 new prison spaces put in place. On top of that, I hope to start work on Thornton Hall.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Do not get me wrong; I do not think it is working. Even if the Minister gets Thornton Hall and brings in the other 1,500 places, our recidivism rate in this country will be 62.4%. That means that 62.4% of people who come out of prison will reoffend within three years. Senator Lynn Ruane a couple weeks ago raised the point that if we had a hospital where nearly seven out of ten people who go into it return in a couple months, we would start to wonder what the purpose of it was. We have a prison system that does not seem to be good for punishing or deterrence nor does it seem to be particularly effective at rehabilitation. Having increased prison spaces probably will not solve that issue, will it? In the Minister’s mind, what are prisons for?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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To use the Deputy’s example of hospitals, somebody would not be taken into hospital because he or she will get sick in the future. He or she would be treated on the basis that he or she is sick now, even if it was known that he or she would get sick again.
Prisons are there for two reasons. They are there for punishment and for rehabilitation. There are two functions. When we take into account penal policy, of course we have to take into account that we have a humane system and that we do not put people in prison who should not be in prison. We also have to look at other issues that will come before this committee, where there are people who are victims of serious violence or people who have been raped. There has to be a punishment. I know the Deputy is not saying that there should not be. Part of the purpose of prison is punishment and, second, it is rehabilitation.
Regarding the type of people who are in prison that the Deputy and I are particularly concerned about, unfortunately, many are there because of addiction issues and they have chaotic lives. We can help them. Part of the reason district judges put people in prison is that, as Deputy Ward mentioned, they are required to engage with services. Whereas if somebody is not given a short term of imprisonment, there is no way he or she can be forced to engage in counselling. That is what I regard as the purpose of prison – punishment and rehabilitation.
Our population has increased significantly. In 2011, we had a capacity of 4,400 and we now have a capacity of 4,600. We need more, and I am not a person who believes we should build lots of prisons. That will never solve it. However, we do need more spaces.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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We need better spaces. The punishment for a person who commits a crime is the loss of liberty. What is happening after that point seems to be a compounding of punishment for a person. Not everyone is the same, but many people who go in there for a particular reason – the Minister just outlined drugs and drug-related crime – are dealing with their own addictions, and there are other people too. The loss of liberty is the punishment, but what seems to happen is when they go in there, the facilities are overcrowded. I appreciate, though, that this may be the case for some people who go in, particularly those in the throes of alcoholism. However, we do not have a prison in this country that is drug-free. People go into our prisons with an addiction and they come out with their addiction compounded. I do not want to say access to treatment facilities, rehabilitation and trauma-informed care are non-existent because of course they exist to some degree, but not to the extent they are needed. I am not opposed to the idea of having more prison spaces but we should be talking about better prisons. What does a recovery incarceration look like? If the Minister is talking about building more prisons, which he is, can we have a conversation about what a better prison would look like?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. As I said, I have visited prisons and there is a lot of excellent work going on in them. I do not know whether the Deputy has visited them. I am sure he has been into them. There is a lot of excellent work being done in terms of education and counselling. Obviously, it is all dependent on the services being there, but there is a lot of good work being done there.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It is a lottery.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, Deputy Cahill is to come in as well.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Is my time up?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If the Deputy has one-----
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I have one more question. On the recent deportations, does the Minister think he could have done that better? There was no human rights observer on the flight to Nigeria. There are 197 children currently standing with deportation orders hanging over them. I am not suggesting that anyone who comes in here with children can stay if they do not meet the criteria. However, the Minister acknowledged that the system is broken. People are being left in the system for too long awaiting decisions. That is more pronounced when it comes to children. They are in our schools for a year, two years, three years or even more. Surely, there can be some degree of an amnesty for the children who have already been failed by the system the Minister speaks of while he is improving and making the situation better.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I always listen to what the Deputy says and I appreciate his comments. However, I recall about two months ago when I announced the international protection Bill was being brought in and we were going to expedite the process to three months, he said that was cruel. We cannot have it that expediting it to three months is cruel and that it is cruel to leave people for a long period. The process needs to speed up. To answer the Deputy’s question directly, I would not have done anything differently in respect of the recent deportation flight. It is not a pleasant business. It has to be done. If we have a system in this country where people who are refused asylum cannot be compelled to leave, the system will become meaningless. Everyone will come on the basis that if they go to Ireland, even if they do not get asylum, nothing will be done to remove them. It is important that we have a system that has consequences if people fail to get asylum. I will not do an amnesty. I do not like amnesties in any walk of life. It sort of condones law-breaking. I certainly will not be doing an amnesty in respect of this or any other matter.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I said that the taking away of the oral appeal was cruel.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am not taking it away.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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At that point, it was not clear what the Minister was making it out to be. Quickening the process without the giving the resourcing leaves people in more difficult situations. I support the quickening up of the process absolutely. However, there were factors in it that were not considered at the time.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am not taking away the oral appeal, by the way; I am restricting it.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister to our meeting. He referenced that funding is available for 1,000 new recruits each year. That is very welcome news. As the saying goes in my neck of the woods, a dumb priest never got a parish. I hope the Garda Commissioner considers County Kerry, and indeed his Kerry family. There is a very obvious need for additional gardaí in my county, and they need to be visible on the ground.
The €4 million available under the local community safety partnerships and community safety fund is from the proceeds of crime seized by the Criminal Assets Bureau and An Garda Síochána. It is to be invested into local projects aimed at enhancing safety. Does that cover CCTV cameras? I raised this at a previous meeting. I ask especially with regard to Killarney. Killarney has been campaigning for many years now. I was a former member of the joint policing committee in Kerry and it used to come up at every meeting. My council colleagues in Kerry were always raising it, including Councillor Niall Kelleher in Killarney.
I also raised the matter of a securing, maintaining and training a cadaver dog. I know they are expensive and their usefulness is for a maximum of four years. I believe that is a matter for the Commissioner and how An Garda Síochána spends its money but it is very important because we see issues all of the time in trying to find human remains etc.
In regard to the Courts Service, the Minister visited Kerry recently and that day he also visited Tralee courthouse where he saw the situation on the ground. I am aware that funding is an issue. Is there any further update in that regard?
Regarding courthouses, we had a courthouse in Killorglin for many years. It has passed its sell-by date and is now being transformed into a facility for the local community in Killorglin. Library Place in the heart of the town was developed and included a proposal for a courthouse. Is it possible for the Minister to ask the Courts Service to look at this again? It is a huge loss to the town. Court cases are going to other towns throughout County Kerry and they are not suitable for them. I believe the location in Library Square in Killorglin would be more suitable for court hearings and I would like that to be looked at.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the Deputy's request for more gardaí to come into Kerry. Everyone wants more gardaí. I thank Deputy Cahill for welcoming my visit there. It was great to see Castleisland Garda station and the excellent work being done by community gardaí. The more we recruit, the more gardaí we will have in every part of the country.
The Deputy's second question related to the €4 million community safety fund from the proceeds of crime. That is not the fund that funds CCTV. The CCTV fund is a grant-aided scheme run by the Department of justice that supports groups wishing to establish a community-based CCTV system in their area. To date, grants totalling more than €950,000 have been approved for 36 community CCTV schemes throughout the country. A further €1 million in funding was made available towards the development of community-based CCTV schemes in 2025. Kerry County Council really should be making an application to that fund if it wants to have CCTV in Killarney.
The third question was about the cadaver dog. I will not get involved in directing who should be in the canine corps within An Garda Síochána. Obviously, very valuable and useful work is carried out by cadaver dogs. Everyone in the country now seems to be an expert on the cadaver dog. I hope we will be able to have one serving within An Garda Síochána in the near future.
The Deputy's fourth question was about the Courts Service in Tralee. One thing everyone agrees on is that Tralee needs a new courthouse. I am trying to get funding for that into the national development plan as it is important a new courthouse is constructed there. I know there is a dispute between certain sections. Some people want the old courthouse to be developed and some people want a new site. I have to say I am looking towards a new site in terms of speed to try to get it done.
Finally, the Deputy spoke about the courthouse on Library Square in Killorglin. I am not aware of it but I will ask Department officials to contact the Courts Service to see whether it could be developed for other purposes.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Butterly has a quick question, if she could be brief as I want to make a couple of points also.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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A lot of what has been spoken about today is about addressing issues after they have happened. I will give my thoughts on this. We have established task forces or committees on a cross-departmental basis. I am very conscious that on the ground there are children coming into crime at an earlier and earlier stage. There is an element of intergenerational crime starting to happen. Maybe it is within the figures somewhere, but I have seen very little for crime prevention in the same way we have home liaison officers from the Department of education. A task force could bring together the different Departments to tackle the issue. There is a lot to be said about disadvantaged areas and child poverty. The shiny toy and the shiny button might make them think in some cases that crime might pay when it does not. Is there something that would address that issue at an early intervention stage?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. Regrettably, she is right. Unfortunately, younger children are getting involved in crime. Forcing a child to get involved in criminal activity at a very young age is, in itself, a form of child abuse. The Deputy is talking about funding community projects that will try to deter people from getting involved in criminal activity at a young age. Lots of excellent work is being done by sports clubs around the country. Boxing clubs and football clubs are doing excellent work and the sports capital grants are of assistance in respect of that. I know the Probation Service comes into play after the event happens, but it plays a huge role in the diversion programme. Youth diversion programmes are very important. If a kid gets involved in criminality at a young age, we have to make a big effort to get them off that path as early as possible. If they stay on that path until the age of 18, the likelihood is that they will go to prison. We do not hear much about it but there is very good work being done by the Probation Service and by youth diversion projects. I have been to Churchfield in Cork, Tuam, Ballinasloe, Killarney and Limerick and I have seen excellent work being done around youth diversion projects. I hear what the Deputy is saying. We have a responsibility to put the supports and services in place so that, hopefully, young people do not get attracted to a life of crime. Once they get to the age of 35, most people do not engage in criminal activity because they realise it is a waste.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Minister. The home liaison officer is able to access the home. Once upon a time, the community garda was able to get the knowledge on the street and have a trusted relationship with families and neighbourhoods. There is a gap there that needs to be addressed. The Minister is absolutely right about community groups. I am involved with many of them across County Louth. They do excellent work but often they are volunteer groups that are always applying for grants and funding. Their money goes up and down. The volunteers come and go. We need a more structured approach to this. I believe it is not solely the responsibility of the Department of justice. It is a cross-departmental issue that needs to be tackled.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have a few minutes?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Certainly, Chairman.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will raise a few points. First, I thank the Minister for his frank responses throughout the meeting.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I hope I have not been too frank.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No. It made me reflect on the fact that if most of the questions that have been put to the Minister today were put in the form of a written parliamentary question, the Deputy would have received a letter from the Ceann Comhairle stating that the Minister has no responsibility in this area. I have raised this with the Minister previously. I think there is an issue with his Department's replies to parliamentary questions, particularly in respect of matters relating to An Garda Síochána. If Deputy Cahill submitted the very question he asked the Minister about Tralee courthouse as a parliamentary question, that same reply would have been given to him. I ask the Minister to reflect on that to see if there is something he can do to ensure Members of this House can follow up on what is the expenditure of public money, at the end of the day. That is our moral and legal obligation, in my view.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question about An Garda Síochána. I do not expect the Minister to comment and I do not want us to have a back and forth on this. I would not say that he expressed optimism - I think he said he is "hopeful" - but virtually nobody else that we meet as a committee or as individual Deputies has confidence in the target figure of 15,000 members of An Garda Síochána by the end of this Dáil term. We saw the report yesterday. We have had the GRA and the AGSI before the committee. We have heard from the Garda Commissioner who argued very clearly in terms of where he sees the deficiencies and improvements coming from, but the evidence is not there. It is quite alarming that just 120 recruits came out of Templemore in the most recent round, considering that this is not something the Government has just been talking about in the past number of months or even years; this is a crisis that was identified at this time in the previous Dáil term.
I think the public will need to see more evidence of success before they will have confidence.
Turning to a few points not touched on yet, I do not know if the Minister since taking up his post has decided to have a look over the immigrant investor programme. It was introduced during the financial crisis and sold to the Irish public as a way in which predominantly third- and fourth-generation Irish-Americans or others would be able to invest in projects, in business operations or philanthropy here in Ireland. As it turned out, 33 applications were approved in respect of US citizens, while 1,614 were approved in respect of Chinese citizens. I do not think too many of them were third- or fourth-generation Irish.
Has the Minister carried out a review of that programme or does he intend to do so? I am aware of its outworkings in several instances. We talked about hotels earlier. The Nuremore Hotel was run into the ground, I would argue, as a result of the immigrant investor programme. We are battling very hard in my area to try to restore it. A factory was purchased in Carrickmacross to much fanfare too and is now being sold on. Many people would have a view that these ventures were used essentially as mechanisms to get residency in Ireland as opposed to actually creating a viable investment platform. Has the Minister considered or does he plan to have a review undertaken that is transparent? The difficulty is that in several areas where I suspect the immigrant investor programme might have been used I cannot even get questions answered as to whether this was the case because of so-called commercial sensitivity, those two infamous words in Irish politics.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I take on board what the Chair said about parliamentary questions. I am happy to answer the questions asked here. I will reflect on what he said and I will mention it. On the Garda Síochána, I am not going to go back and forth with the Chair here today on it. It is a challenging thing to do. The funding is in place for 1,000 recruits a year and I am committed to trying to get the figure up there. If I fail, I have no doubt that people will bring it to my attention. I am not at this stage prepared to say I am giving up on it.
Turning to the immigrant investor programme, the logic of it being introduced in 2013 can be understood when there was a real financial crisis in the country. Fortunately, we have now recovered remarkably well from that economic downturn. The Chair is right in terms of his assessment of the applicants for the programme. People thought applicants would be coming from different parts of the world. The reason people were funding it was because of the benefit they got from Irish residency. There was no ambiguity about that. The only reason people from America, China or any other part of the world were investing was not out of any great love of Carrickmacross but because they wanted to get the benefit of residency. It had its time and I am glad it has stopped. There are still going to be applications coming through the process, and I approve them. There is an assessment board in the Department that evaluates them and then they come to me. I generally adopt the recommendations made to me by the evaluation committee. I am not planning to carry out a review of the programme. In many respects, it has been taking up too much time in the Department. I want to see it end and for us to move on. I am not going to spend time going back over it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Minister at least allow more transparency in respect of the programme? The Minister said there is an evaluation board. That is a board whose members are again getting paid-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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They are just officials in the Department.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but they work for the State. Everybody who works for the State has a responsibility to have done their due diligence and we have a right to ensure they have done so.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I can point to two instances where I think there are serious questions to be answered, but there is no mechanism for anybody within these Houses - other than the Minister, I would argue - to be able to get to the truth as to whether my fears are actually real.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I just think that this is, to my mind, a potentially big scandal and we can either deal with it head-on now a few short years after the scheme has closed or we can wait for ten and 20 years down the line and let somebody else deal with it.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am the person responsible and accountable for it. If the Chair has issues of concern, he should write to me about them. I am concerned about setting up reviews of work I am responsible for. If the Chair has issues with applications made, he should write to me. I will raise them in the Department and try to give him a response. That is all I can say.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough. The Minister's first-day brief suggested the criminal injuries compensation scheme was running out of money fairly quickly. What is its status now?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The general situation is that fund gets fairly exhausted early in the year. If an award is made to people under the criminal injuries compensation tribunal and no money is available that year, they will get it fairly promptly the next year. It is a scheme that needs to be reformed and put on a statutory basis. There is also a series of references to the CJEU in respect of how the scheme operates. A reference has been made in a case called Blanco that will have a significant impact. People do not get money for pain and suffering but only for material loss. The Law Reform Commission has prepared a detailed report on it and it is something I am going to look at. If people are given an award, they will ultimately get their money, although there can be a delay.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The people who get these awards have usually been through horrific experiences.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, of course.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To eventually get to the point where an award has been made only to be told to wait is not ideal. Is the Minister still intending-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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We can give people an interim payment.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Does that happen?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am told that does happen. With large awards, there will be an interim payment.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it still the Minister's intention to bring forward a Bill to formalise all this?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but I want to be realistic with the Chair and the committee. I am trying to get a lot of legislation done and the criminal injuries compensation tribunal is one aspect of this, but I cannot give a guarantee it is going to be done this year or next year. A Law Reform Commission report will be coming out in respect of the scheme. It generally produces a Bill at the back of it. I will have a look at that and see what we can do. It is an area that needs to be reformed.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister will be receiving an invitation from the committee. The members met earlier to invite the Minister to come in and discuss the IPAS system in a very broad sense. I hope he will be in a position to take up that invitation.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the committee to give me a bit of notice. Obviously, I have a very tight schedule between now and the end of the Dáil term. I am just being frank with the Chair. I do not want to be saying something that cannot happen. I have no difficulty coming here, but it may have to wait until September or October.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Right. Okay. We can talk about that. There are great concerns around how the IPAS system is managed. I have been at the coalface of this in dealing with the outworkings of it in my constituency for well over a decade now in terms of emergency accommodation. I refer to the fact that we are, on the one hand, dealing with rumours, suggestions, concerns and fears and trying to get information, while on the other hand, we are dealing with a very cloudy situation in terms of full information. Can the Minister give us information in respect of the range of payments IPAS providers are receiving, from the lowest cost per bed to the highest cost per bed?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I cannot because it is on the basis of what is being provided in respect of the price per person per night. I agree, however, with the Chair that far too much money being spent on this area is going to private commercial providers. This is why I am trying to develop State accommodation and why I bought Citywest. We cannot have it both ways. We cannot be critical of people for trying to start State accommodation, where the State will own the accommodation and it will be considerably cheaper for the State, and then say as well we do not want to have people going around using hotels. As I said earlier, I want to get out of renting hotels and accommodation centres. I want to get out of doing that. There are contracts in place. Some of them are being terminated. As I said too, however, this is an issue driven enormously by the numbers of people coming in claiming international protection. Significant numbers of people are being accommodated at present, some 33,000 people. We spent more than €1 billion on IPAS last year. The only way those figures for the cost will come down is if we try to reduce the number of people coming in claiming international protection.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough but we are some way off having no reliance on private operators. I would argue it is probably a lifetime away on the current trajectory. In the meantime, there will be contracts with private operators. Is that going to continue to happen in secret, in the dark and with no information? There was a situation where two directors in one company involved in the provision of IPAS paid themselves €4.6 million in salary in one year.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to stop that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Minister doing to stop that?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Buying accommodation that the State will own. The only solution is that the State provides the accommodation.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The interim solution is not to pay them so much.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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To get away from the commercial provision of accommodation units for international protection applicants, the State has to provide its own accommodation. Otherwise, we will always be renting.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is granted. While we are paying private operators, will the level of money involved continue to be obscene or can some brakes be put on it?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I have instructed officials in my Department to ensure they get the best value for money. The market has changed. As I said to Deputy Kelly, last year, the State was chasing after sites. Now, site owners are chasing after the State. The market has changed but that can change very quickly. A significant number of people, about 2,500, are not being provided with accommodation. It is a challenge all over Europe to provide accommodation for international protection applicants. We need to try to get control of it by ensuring we have State-owned accommodation and trying to get the numbers down. I do not wish to make a political point but I listened carefully to the Deputy's suggestion that we stop temporary protection. If we did that, all the Ukrainians would claim international protection. There would be 87,000 people in Ireland claiming international protection.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There would still be the same number of people. At the moment, one group is just under a different scheme.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Apologies, Chair, but we are here to talk about Estimates. We will have an opportunity, I hope in September or October-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Excuse me, Deputy-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, I am in the Chair.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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You are, and I am the Vice Chair.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You are not in the Chair. I will not tolerate being interrupted by a member while I-----
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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You are turning the purpose of this meeting into a completely different purpose.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Deputy to be quiet, please. I am in the Chair.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Ask a specific question in relation to what the committee is here for today, Chair, respectfully. Do your job as a Chair properly.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will not tolerate that. I am the last speaker. I have allowed every single member to have as long as they wished.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Chair, we agreed to have a meeting in September.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Through the Chair, every member has asked specific questions in relation to the committee. You have taken it across to another topic which is scheduled, I hope, to happen in September or October. The Chair has decided to go off on his own steam and away from the purpose of today's meeting.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Respectfully, I regret the Deputy simply does not understand the Estimates process because I am dealing with item C3-----
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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You have not asked a question.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Excuse me, can the member's microphone be turned off while I am speaking? There is clearly an agenda to try to undermine me as Chair. I will not tolerate it or stand for it. I will not allow a situation, when I allowed every other member of this committee to speak for as long as they wish and ask whatever questions they wish of the Minister, where I am then interrupted as I take less time than any other member to ask a question that is clearly in the public interest and clearly relates to the Estimates.
On that note, I thank the Minister for coming. As there is no other business this meeting of the select committee is adjourned.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair and members.