Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 18 June 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
General Scheme of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We have received apologies from Deputy Brian Brennan and Senator Ní Chuilinn. Today, we continue our pre-legislative scrutiny of the revised general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill. This meeting has been convened with representatives from TG4, Screen Producers Ireland, the Community Television Association and Virgin Media Television to continue the committee's scrutiny of this Bill. I warmly welcome the following witnesses: from TG4, Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín, ard stiúrthóir, and Ms Teresa Kenny, stiúrthóir dlí; from Virgin Media Television, Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin, managing director, and Mr. Peter McCarthy, general counsel and vice president of corporate affairs; from Screen Producers Ireland, Ms Susan Kirby, CEO, and Mr. Anthony Muldoon, director of strategic policy; and from the Community Television Association, Mr. Bill Tyson, committee of management, and Mr. Eddie Noonan, member of committee of management. The format of today's meeting is that I will invite our witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to four minutes. That will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its web page, which we propose to do. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before I proceed to questions from members of the committee, I would like to clarify some limitations with regard to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Members should note that a simultaneous translation service has been made available for this meeting courtesy of Rannóg an Aistriúcháin.
I propose we proceed now with the opening statements in the following order: TG4, Virgin Media Television, Screen Producers Ireland and then Community Television Association. We commence now with Deirdre Ní Choistín from TG4 who has four minutes. Will witnesses try to stick to the time limits please? I thank the witnesses.
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an chomhchoiste as an gcuireadh freastal ar an gcruinniú seo inniu. Is mór ag TG4 an deis scéim ghinearálta athbhreithnithe den Bhille craolacháin (leasú) a phlé. Cuireann TG4 fáilte roimh fhormhór na n-athruithe atá molta ar an reachtaíocht chraolacháin, atá ag teacht den chuid is mó leis an Acht Eorpach um shaoirse na meán, EMFA. Léiríonn na hathruithe riachtanais an lucht féachana atá athraithe agus margadh na meán atá ag forbairt seasta. Tá aiseolas cuimsitheach curtha ar fáil ina leith sin inár n-aighneacht faoi réimsí an Bhille gur ghá lena huile athbhreithnithe nó breithnithe a dhéanamh orthu.
Tá ról ar leith ag TG4 in earnáil na meán chun an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn, an chruthaitheacht a chumasú, bonn láidir a chur faoin earnáil léiriúcháin neamhspleách, agus tacú le fás eacnamaíochta agus sóisialta na Gaeltachta. Tacaíonn obair TG4 le straitéisí agus le beartais an Stáit don Ghaeilge. Cuirimid fáilte roimh athbhreithniú ar phríomhchuspóirí TG4 lena chinntiú go bhfuil ár ról mar mheán seirbhíse poiblí mionteanga dhaingnithe sa reachtaíocht. Táimid ag tnúth freisin le toradh an athbhreithnithe a rinneadh ar na meáin Ghaeilge do Choimisiún na Meán a bheidh ar fáil níos déanaí i mbliana. Tacaíonn TG4 leis na hathruithe atá molta ar mheasúnú ar mhaoiniú na meán sa Bhille. Tá maoiniú ilbhliantúil ríthábhachtach chun tacú le fás straitéiseach TG4, chun cabhrú le pleanáil na heagraíochta, agus chun seasmhacht conarthaí leis an earnáil léiriúcháin neamhspleách a chinntiú.
Tá EMFA le teacht i bhfeidhm i mí Lúnasa na bliana seo. Ní mór d'aon socrú maoinithe a bheith leordhóthanach, intuartha agus inbhuanaithe mar a leagtar amach in Airteagal 5.3 den Acht. De réir taighde atá déanta ag an EBU, tá Éire i measc na deich dtír is lú san Eoraip a fhaigheann maoiniú meán seirbhíse poiblí, ag 0.08% den OTI nó GDP. Caithfear measúnú comparáideach a dhéanamh le meán seirbhíse poiblí eile an EBU le cinntiú go mbeidh maoiniú leordhóthanach á fháil ag meán seirbhíse poiblí na hÉireann sna blianta amach romhainn. Cuireann TG4 fáilte freisin roimh na coinníollacha sa Bhille a chinntíonn éifeachtacht an phróisis do mhaoiniú na meán. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go mbeadh maoiniú na meán bunaithe ar chritéir thrédhearcacha agus oibiachtúla.
Glacann TG4 leis na bearta rialachais atá molta sa Bhille agus an soiléiriú a thugtar ar ról agus ar fheidhmeanna an bhoird agus an ard-stiúrthóra. Tá caighdeáin rialachais den scoth á gcoinneáil ag TG4 go leanúnach, agus fáiltímid roimh bhearta breise chun na caighdeáin sin a threisiú. Tacaíonn TG4 freisin leis an aitheantas a thugtar sa Bhille do na meáin ilardán. Léiríonn sé an bealach a bhfuil an lucht féachana ag teacht ar ábhar agus tá sé ag teacht go mór lenár straitéis, TG4 Gach Áit.
Tá TG4 chun tosaigh sa réimse seo i gcónaí. Ba é TG4 an chéad chraoltóir in Éirinn agus sa Ríocht Aontaithe a sheol seirbhís seinnteoir sa bhliain 2003. Tá ár mbrandaí neamhlíneacha, Molscéal agus Bloc, ag fás go leanúnach. Tá curtha go mór ag straitéis YouTube Spórt TG4 le clúdach na gcluichí Gaelacha, agus bhí cur chuige neodrach ó thaobh ardáin de ag TG4 don tsraith dhrámaíochta "Crá", ag teacht leis an mbealach a bhfuil an lucht féachana ag breathnú ar ábhar drámaíochta. Molaimid, áfach, go gcuirfí forálacha an Achta um Rialáil Sábháilteachta ar Líne agus na Meán, 2022 i bhfeidhm ionas go mbeidh ábhar na meán seirbhíse poiblí infheicthe agus infhaighte ar gach ardán.
Cuirimid fáilte roimh chistí na meáin nua a bheidh faoi mhaoirseacht Choimisiún na Meán. Beidh 25% d'aon chiste nua le caitheamh ar ábhar Gaeilge a chuirfidh bonn faoin gcaoi a n-oibrímid leis an earnáil léiriúcháin agus a thacóidh le fostaíocht sa Ghaeltacht agus go réigiúnach agus a rachaidh chun tairbhe lucht féachana na Gaeilge freisin. Bheadh buntáistí den chineál céanna ag baint leis an tobhach ar oibreacha Eorpacha má chuirtear i bhfeidhm é le cead an Aire. Mar fhoilsitheoir craoltóir a bhíonn ag coimisiúnú seachas ag léiriú ábhair, tá comhpháirtíocht láidir ag TG4 leis an earnáil léiriúcháin i gcónaí. Tá an-rath, mar shampla, ar an scéim coimisiúnaithe scannán Cine4, atá cómhaoinithe ag Coimisiún na Meán agus Fís Éireann. Cuirimid fáilte mar sin roimh aon chiste nua maoinithe a rachaidh chun tairbhe na hearnála agus an lucht féachana.
Tá gá, dár linn, le soiléiriú ar an bhfoclaíocht faoi cheannteideal 23 le deimhniú gur féidir le Coimisiún na Meán leanúint ar aghaidh ag cur maoiniú ar fáil do chaomhnú chartlann TG4. Cuirimid fáilte freisin roimh athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar ábhar na meán seirbhíse poiblí chun éagsúlacht agus iolrachas a chinntiú. Ní bheidh iolrachas ann maidir le nuacht Ghaeilge faoi cheannteideal 23 go dtí go gcuirfear moladh 7.1 de Thuarascáil an Choimisiúin um Thodhchaí na Meán i bhfeidhm ina ndeirtear gur chóir go mbeadh smacht eagarthóireachta neamhspleách ag TG4 ar a chuid seirbhísí nuachta.
Gabhaimid buíochas le baill an chomhchoiste as an deis ár dtuairimí a chur in iúl agus táimid ag súil go mór a bheith ag obair leo go leanúnach agus an Bille á chur chun cinn.
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the invitation to attend today. I am joined by my colleague, Peter McCarthy, general council and vice president of corporate affairs.
Virgin Media Television supports the overall proposals outlined in the general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill. We welcome, in particular, the creation of the media fund on a legislative basis. This proposed amendment affects Virgin Media Television directly and is a critical step towards a more equitable and pluralistic media environment. Virgin Media Television is Ireland’s only independent, national, commercial public service broadcaster operating under the provisions of sections 70 and 71 of the Broadcasting Act. Virgin Media Television is entirely funded through advertising and commercial revenues and is the only Irish broadcaster with a public service content remit that is not in receipt of public funding. When it launched in 1998, the broadcasting landscape was very different with fewer linear players and no digital platforms in the market. Fast forward to 2025, competition from digital and linear broadcasters has expanded exponentially. The advertising market in which we are competing is ever more challenging. The digital sector takes 58% of total advertising revenue valued at €1.5 billion in Ireland. TV receives just 17% of available money. There are now 66 channels taking commercial revenue from Ireland, 60 of which are operating without any public service content remit.
The importance of media plurality in the Irish TV broadcasting sector cannot be overstated. It is crucial for ensuring a diverse and democratic society. Virgin Media Television is proud of the valuable public service programming we deliver. We keep the nation informed through trusted news and current affairs, while our podcast series "The Group Chat" brings viewers behind the scenes of the news. This is complemented by in-depth reportage on our social media channels, with the focus on media literacy and bringing news to younger audiences in an accessible fashion on platforms where they are most active. Last year, Ireland AM celebrated 25 years of delivering quality public service content. During that time Ireland AM has showcased more than 34,000 businesses, thousands of charities and has reached in excess of 4,000 communities across our island. The show continues to attract nearly 1 million individual viewers monthly. However, delivering our public service content remit on a purely commercial basis is not viable under current funding arrangements. The proposed media fund is welcome, but it is worth noting that the funding allocation is based on additionality only. The challenge to maintain our existing remit and output remains. This is not simply a matter of funding; it is a matter of underpinning the presence and depth of Irish public service broadcasting in Ireland for the future.
Virgin Media Television welcomes the opportunity to contribute and engage further with the committee on the general scheme.
Ms Susan Kirby:
Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an chomhchoiste as an gcuireadh chun cur i láthair a dhéanamh inniu. I thank the Chair and the Joint Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport for the invitation to present on the heads of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill 2025. I am CEO of Screen Producers Ireland, SPI, and I am joined by my colleague, Anthony Muldoon, director of strategic policy.
SPI is the national representative body for more than 220 independent film, television, animation and digital production companies in Ireland. We are the voice of the independent production sector. Our members are the creative entrepreneurs behind globally acclaimed film, TV and animation, supporting jobs across the island and promoting Ireland’s culture and heritage. Our organisation represents an all-island membership, ranging from emerging to established producers, producing entertaining, educational and culturally important work in English agus trí mheán na Gaeilge. SPI members have produced award-winning Irish-language films like "Kneecap" and "An Cailín Ciúin", acclaimed documentaries such as "Blue Road:The Edna O'Brien Story", "The Farthest", and "From That Small Island"; popular dramas like "Kin", "The Dry", and "Mix Tape"; as well as hit entertainment shows such as "Dancing with the Stars" and "Room to Improve". The sector is the largest creative partner to both public service broadcasters, RTÉ and TG4, along with being key partners to Virgin Media TV. This symbiotic relationship makes the sector an integral element in the delivery of public service media and public service media content to audiences across Ireland. Recent figures from RTÉ and TG4 give some context to the depth of relationship between public service media and the sector.
In 2023, RTÉ’s independent productions unit commissioned nearly 494 hours of statutory television content. That same year, TG4 commissioned more than 800 hours of new Irish-language programming, focusing on arts, culture, heritage and sport, further strengthening its output in these key genres.
The sector is central to Ireland’s cultural life. To increase the level of investment in the sector, we have been advocating alongside industry partners since 2022 for the introduction of the AVMSD European works levy. With such a levy, our members would develop and create Irish-owned IP, supporting an ecology of Irish creative talent to tell stories here at home and on a global stage.
It is widely acknowledged that the creative industries are a critical engine and strategic priority supporting European economic growth. Here in Ireland, the industries account for 8.9% of national employment, with the Irish screen production sector central to that success. Recent figures from Screen Ireland show that the Irish audiovisual industry provided €1 billion in GVA for 2021 to 2023, with more than 15,000 full-time equivalent roles supported through the sector each year.
SPI is also the employer representative group for independent producers. We advocate for compliance with IR, HR and employment law for all working in the sector, including holding four agreements with ICTU-affiliated unions, pay deals and being signatories of the best practice guidelines for compliance with the copyright directive.
I will address some of our points on the Bill now. It is evident that the Bill reinforces the overall levels of supervision by both Coimisiún na Meán and the Department of media on public service media. In particular, head 19 of the Bill creates new frameworks for the supervision of public service media. We question whether the review framework, as set out, complies with the European Media Freedom Act. This Act states that public service media should have access to adequate, sustainable and predictable financial resources. We advocate strongly that this is achieved for public service broadcasters in Ireland.
A key provision of the Bill is the legislative commitment that at least 25% of all public money to RTÉ must be invested in the independent production sector. This is a recommendation from the Future of Media Commission, and one that is most welcome by the sector. It also aligns the legislation with the trajectory of RTÉ’s statement of strategy, A New Direction. As RTÉ’s strategy develops, and as Coimisiún na Meán begins its three-year review cycle, it is hoped that this percentage can be increased over and beyond what is legislatively required.
Regarding head 23 of the Bill, we believe it is essential to state that the Sound and Vision fund should continue to receive 7% of the TV licence fee, as it has for the past 20 years. The new schemes coming under the media fund should not take away from this amount.
To conclude, we emphasise that strong public sector broadcasters commissioning independently produced content on a year-round basis are essential for the successful development of the independent production sector. We know there is an appetite for indigenous content that serves audiences in Ireland and throughout the world. We want to work to make this happen.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We will now have Mr. Bill Tyson and Mr. Eddie Noonan from the Community Television Association.
Mr. Bill Tyson:
I thank members for the opportunity to speak here today on behalf of the Community Television Association. There are two community TV stations currently operating in Ireland - Dublin Community Television, DCTV, and Cork Community Television, CCTv. There is also community television in Belfast, Northern Visions Television, NVTV, with which we have developed strong links.
With regard to the revised general scheme of the broadcasting (amendment) Bill, we are concerned that there are few specific mentions of community broadcasting and that where the words "local" and "regional" are used, this will be understood to mean "local" and "regional" licensed broadcasting, which would exclude community broadcasting. We believe it is essential to explicitly mention community media to ensure there can be no misunderstanding in the legislation, and we have sent in a more detailed submission about this.
What makes community television different? Community television is owned and controlled by the community it serves, with governance provided by a voluntary board of management. It facilitates participation at all levels and from a wide range of groups, often providing access to media for more marginalised groups in society, though not exclusively. The difference is that these groups are actively involved at all stages of production and have editorial control over the content they produce. It is television made by communities for communities, with the broad aim of making our society a better place to live and promoting a better understanding of the different communities that live on this island.
Community TV has achieved a lot over the past 18 years since we first got our licences from what is now Coimisiún na Meán, but we know we could achieve a whole lot more with a more sustainable business model. Our organisations span both the media sector and the community and voluntary sector. Through the incredible dedication of a core group of volunteers who have stuck with this for the past 18 years because they believe in the potential, we have broadcast thousands of hours of community programming and provided enormous social benefits.
Mr. Eddie Noonan:
I thank the committee for this opportunity.
Although we are obviously running on a much smaller scale than RTÉ, TG4 or Virgin Media, we still have many of the same tasks to do – programming, scheduling content, broadcast engineering, financial management and compliance with the Coimisiún na Meán codes and standards, to name just a few. This requires a team of professional paid staff, supported by volunteers. To develop sustainably, we need a guaranteed source of annual income to cover wages and annual running costs.
The social benefit is something we are very committed to and, on a more positive note, the opening up of the social benefit round of Sound and Vision to community television has been very successful and is a step in the right direction. We believe that the social benefit framework can serve as a template for the upcoming community media fund. The CTA welcomed the 2022 recommendation from the Future of Media Commission that a community media fund be established. We believe this community media fund has the potential to be a real game-changer for our sector, and we ask that budget 2026 has the necessary allocation of funds to begin this much needed work.
Community television should be available on a free-to-air basis to everyone in the country, and in the future, we would like to also see a community television station or channel on Saorview or on a player which could be a "best of community TV" station from Dublin and Cork. We have good relationships with Virgin Media and it supports us, but we would like to see ourselves up the box numbers-wise. We could also develop an all-island channel, which is something we are very interested in, with NVTV in Belfast.
To finish, we have a proven track record in providing social benefit and helping to build community through media. With further support, we know that we can achieve so much.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. We had an informative session last night and I have no doubt that today I will be learning a lot. As a new committee member, it is incredibly helpful to hear directly from them all.
I have questions for everybody but I might not get to everybody in my first round. I will start with Virgin Media. The issue of funding was spoken about. In particular, I am interested around the issue of the additionality component. What parts of Virgin Media’s current output does Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin think should be covered by State funding? What barriers does Virgin Media currently have, or would have, even with this legislation, to maintain its current output and remit in the absence of State funding?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
Last year, we requested funding for our public service content remit. That is what we have in agreement under section 70 with Coimisiún na Meán. That was our news, current affairs and daytime programming. It did not include any of the other content that we would deem public service, such as League of Ireland or sport. It was purely for news and current affairs. When we first heard of the media fund, we were not aware of any additionality. That has only come to light recently. We were hoping that the media fund was the start of a commitment to support public service content and the ask we had put in last year. For us, having additionality when we already deliver more than 2,000 hours of daytime studio programming through news, current affairs and “Ireland AM”, finding more, and therefore the resource to fulfil that, will make it very difficult and will increase the pressure we have on our existing content.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Where should the balance lie between the support of public service broadcasting at RTÉ and TG4 in comparison with public service broadcasting done by other channels and producers of content?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
I think where a broadcaster has a defined remit, and under legislation and section 70. We are the only section 70 licence holder in the country.
We had to apply for that licence two years ago. We were the only applicant for that because people realised it was just not an attractive proposition. It is far easier to come in and not have the onerous task of doing news and current affairs. However, we are very proud and we know we deliver a quality product. Where there is a scenario where it is defined, and our minutage is defined, that should be funded. That applies to us and to other organisations that have defined minutage for public service content.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Related to that, how are we able to ensure workers' rights are respected by organisations in receipt of State funding that are not under the aegis of the State? Plenty of members of the committee are aware that there are many issues with those bodies that still need to be dealt with but obviously there is even less scrutiny or oversight of bodies that are not under the aegis of the State.
Mr. Peter McCarthy:
Like any commercial entity, we have our own strict rules. There are then legal obligations on how employees are treated, paid, wages, the Organisation of Working time Act and all the other legislation around that. We are fairly strong on the processes and procedures around employee rights and, equally, how employees are treated and paid. Like any commercial entity outside the State sector, we are probably a bit tighter in the commercial area. People have different views. However, those rules apply to us and we are very strict about it.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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While I appreciate that Virgin Media Television has the same obligations as any corporate entity, we are aware of many issues with bogus self-employment, for example. Has that issue arisen for the company in ways that it wants to tackle?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does that mean at the same time?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Mr. Peter McCarthy:
Revenue has a remit regarding audits and various other matters in commercial entities such as Virgin Media. We proactively and reactively work with Revenue on a regular basis. It sets out the codes and practice and we are compliant with those. We are compliant with employment legislation and all the tax legislation too.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does that provide for adequate workers' rights given the issues that have arisen?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin is happy enough with it.
I have some questions now for Screen Producers Ireland. I understand from the opening statements that the organisation welcomes the provisions for independent commissioning and hopes the figure increases beyond 25%. I have some specific questions on that. First, in an ideal world, what proportion of that funding would go to independent commissioning? Second, what balance should be struck between in-house production in the State broadcasters versus independent commissioning?
Ms Susan Kirby:
This issue is central to our presentation today. Last year, we very much welcomed the Government's multi-annual commitment to RTÉ of funding for 2025 to 2027, inclusive. In our view, that aligns very clearly with the European Media Freedom Act which is underpinned by our public service broadcasters having adequate, predictable and sustainable funding. We would like to see that extended beyond those three years, at least. We would also like to see it extended to TG4, recognising that its representatives are sitting beside us but also because of its centrality to our industry - ach go háirithe thar ceann na léiritheoirí atá ag cruthú trí mheán na Gaeilge – and specifically on behalf of our membership who are creating work through the medium of Irish. This Bill has indicated that 25% of all public funding would be spent in the independent production sector via RTÉ. It is critical that figure is adhered to and we would like it to be increased over time.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Specifically on that, does Ms Kirby have a figure in mind on what that might stretch to over a period of years? What might the balance be between in-house versus independent production?
Ms Susan Kirby:
We do not have an exact roadmap but I will paint a picture for the Deputy, if I may. In 2008, between €65 million and €80 million was invested in the sector via RTÉ. When inflation is included, we are now behind where we were in 2008. The 2008 position is a very good pointer that we should at least be able to reach in the lifetime of the new direction strategy published by RTÉ.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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What would the balance between in-house versus independent commissioning look like in a healthy environment?
Ms Susan Kirby:
Again, I refer to TG4. It works with a publishing broadcasting model which is a useful model to analyse in answering that question. I would lean on RTÉ's own strategy and how it has articulated that view. It would be looking at the majority of independent production going to the independent sector, with business, current affairs, sport and news ring-fenced and staying within RTÉ. I must say RTÉ delivers those at absolute best in show and should be supported in delivering them.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses are very welcome. We appreciate their comprehensive contributions. As previous speakers indicated, it has been fabulous for me, as a new member of this committee, to hear the different insights from the different stakeholders. I thank them for that.
I am conscious of time so I will move through as quickly and cover as much as I can. I compliment Virgin Media Television on its valuable public service programming. It is top class and what it delivers is trusted. There are many sources of information that are not trusted but Virgin Media Television is a trusted source. I wanted to acknowledge that first, particularly Virgin Media's news and current affairs output and "The Group Chat", which was mentioned and brings people behind the scenes. I think Gavan Reilly is in the Gallery.
Virgin Media's opening statement notes that delivering the company's public service content remit on a purely commercial basis is not viable under the current funding arrangements. That is of great concern to me because so many people get trusted news from Virgin Media. Will the witnesses tell us about that, especially as regards how bringing additionality will create great challenges?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
I thank the Deputy for acknowledging the work we do. According to the Reuters report yesterday, our rating has gone up year on year as a trusted news source. Last year, we had to make some difficult decisions to our existing content because of the commercial situation we were in. We do not want to reduce our public service broadcasting content. We are committed to it but it is expensive to deliver. We already produce a lot of additionality outside of what is mandated. To push that further and add more bulletins, current affairs content, etc., would put a real strain on a system that is already very tight. We already had to make difficult decisions last year when we reduced our “Tonight Show” output, which also resulted in job losses.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is Virgin Media at a huge disadvantage with respect to RTÉ and funding for news, current affairs and daytime programming?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would it like a bigger slice of that?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What did Virgin Media receive?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is interesting.
I move to Screen Producers Ireland. What is its position on the future model for funding public service media in Ireland?
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
Essentially, we are advocating what the Bill is hoping to do, that is, have multi-annual funding for public service media, both TG4 and RTÉ. The reason we think this is the best model is that it is in the European Media Freedom Act, which states clearly that this is the best way to fund public service media so that there is a trusted media source in any home country. Second, it would give certainty and predictability to the organisations themselves and allow TG4 or RTÉ, for instance, to plan three years in advance.
From the independent producers' point of view, it means that production companies can plan ahead because you know on a multi-annual basis what kind of money will be available for commissions in that cycle. That gives greater certainty and allows for investment and development, creating new programmes and challenging audiences. That is why multi-annual funding is the best approach. We believed the announcement on RTÉ's settlement last year was positive. It was less than was asked for but it was still a very positive step.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How will this proposed legislation affect Coimisiún na Meán's media development remit, particularly as it relates to funding for the independent sector?
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
There are two big pieces on the funding side. One is the creation of a media fund. We want to make sure the Sound and Vision fund, which has operated as an independent fund for 20 years and is now being incorporated into the media fund, does not lose any money. We want to make sure the €15 million that is currently there stays there and does not leak into the local democracy report or any of the new schemes that are being created because it is a really important funding mechanism for the culturally relevant programming which is not easily made commercial that is seen on TG4 and RTÉ.
The second piece is on the content levy. Ms Kirby mentioned this levy in her opening statement. We have been advocating for this since 2017 as an organisation and since 2020 as an industry.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What impact would that have on the sector?
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
That is exactly it. The commission's own feasibility study said a content levy should be brought in. That is the first thing I will say. The levy it recommended would bring in €11 million in its first year and, when it reached mature growth, it would bring in €20 million. All of a sudden, a €20 million pot of money is created for indigenous investment in Irish production companies. That equates to 47% or 48% of RTÉ's current investment in the independent sector. It is a massive boon and opportunity that has now unfortunately been lost. As we have said before, we hope that the Minister might re-evaluate the decision he has made in the coming months. It is very important to note that the legislation still allows it to be introduced. We hope he will look at it again in the next 18 months. It is a very significant investment opportunity for media development through the commission.
Ms Susan Kirby:
If I may add to my colleague's point, the quantum is very significant. If it was to be in the region of €20 million to €25 million, that would be transformative for our sector. As regards the detailed nature of the potential fund, some 80% of it would be contestable in the independent production sector. The right of producers to retain IP would be baked into it. Retaining Irish IP is the cornerstone of our industry and how we build scale and value in our companies. Most critically, 25% of the fund also involved an undertaking in respect of the Irish language. It allows Irish creatives to tell Irish stories both here and around the globe, which is probably the unquantifiable element of the fund. Speaking as a representative of the industry, I can say that is a very valuable thing. Speaking as a parent, I believe it is absolutely critical so-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am really conscious of time because there are only 30 seconds left. I have one other quick point to get in and I might get in a second. We had RTÉ in here recently. This is connected to the general scheme of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill from a sporting perspective. Would TV3 ever consider looking at a 24-hour sports channel? Obviously, things would have to be put on repeat but there is definitely a gap in the market. TG4 does great work in respect of the GAA. It is absolutely fantastic and should be acknowledged but there is a significant opportunity to have a dedicated channel for sport, whether it is operated by TG4, Virgin Media or RTÉ. Is that something Virgin Media would consider having a look at?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Deputy is mad for a sports channel in Ireland.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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He should set it up himself.
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
If the funding was there, we would be mad for a sports channel as well. We do 1,100 hours of live sport a year. We have made a very significant commitment to Irish sport, as illustrated in our recently announced four-year exclusive deal through which we guarantee coverage to the League of Ireland, which is something that has not been there before. I would love it if funding was available for a 24-hour sports channel.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If the Chair will indulge me, I will ask a question of TG4. Its coverage of club matches and underage matches is unbelievable. Is that something it would broaden out?
Ms Teresa Kenny:
We are looking at a platform neutral approach to sport rather than a dedicated channel. We are increasing our YouTube coverage of live games. For example, on Allianz Football League super Sunday, we had ten games live on our YouTube channel at the same time. We broadcast more ladies' football and Comórtas Peile na Gaeltachta. Our approach to sport is multiplatform and platform neutral. It is about making games available to the audience regardless of where they watch.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Déanaim comhghairdeas le Deirdre Ní Choistín. Bhí mé ag caint léi ag ócáid dhíreach sular fhuair sí an t-ardú céime. Leanfaidh mé ar aghaidh ón gceist dheireanach. Bhí mé ag féachaint ar Chomórtas Peile na Gaeltachta. Bhí mé in ann féachaint ar m'iníon ag imirt. Fuair sí buille sa chloigeann so bhí uirthi imeacht ón bpáirc go luath. Déanaim comhghairdeas le TG4 as an obair ar fad atá á dhéanamh aige ó thaobh spórt nach raibh RTÉ nó aon dream eile sásta díriú isteach orthu. Is rud tábhachtach an sampla atá TG4 tar éis a thabhairt dúinn ar fad thar na blianta gur féidir díriú isteach ar spóirt mhionlaigh. Is é sin an teideal a bhíodh orthu ach tá súil agam nach spóirt mhionlaigh iad roinnt acu a thuilleadh toisc gur féidir le daoine teacht orthu anois.
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Sin é go díreach. Ó thaobh na comhpháirtíochta atá ag TG4 le peil na mban ó 2001, tá peil na mban anois lárnach i saol spóirt na hÉireann cé gur spórt mionlaigh a bhí ann go dtí sin. Tugaimid tacaíocht freisin do liathróid láimhe, cispheil na mban, sacar na mban agus rugbaí na mban. Cuirimid na mná go láidir chun cinn ó thaobh cúrsaí spóirt de. Tugaimid clúdach do chluichí club agus spóirt nach mbeadh spéis ag craoltóirí eile iontu. Tagann sé le straitéis TG4 ó thaobh gach áit, is é sin, freastal ar an lucht féachana ar na hardáin ar fad. Tá an-rath ar chainéal spóirt TG4 ar YouTube go háirithe ó thaobh cur le clúdach spóirt TG4.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tá sé léirithe ag TG4 gur gá agus gur féidir leis a bheith neamhspleách ó thaobh an spóirt de. Nuair a bunaíodh TG4, bhí gach duine ag rá nach mbeadh sé in ann a bheith san iomaíocht le RTÉ nó dreamanna móra eile chun na cluichí móra a fháil agus a leithéid. Cad atá ag teastáil ó thaobh an dlí? An bhfuil gá le hathrú sa dlí maidir le seirbhísí nuachta neamhspleácha a chur ar fáil do phobal na Gaeilge ná don phobal i gcoitinne?
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Ó thaobh iolrachais agus freastal ar an lucht féachana, tá sé i dtuarascáil an Coimisiún um Thodhchaí na Meán go mbeadh ceannas eagarthóireachta neamhspleách ag TG4 ar an nuacht agus táimid ag iarraidh go gcuirfí é sin i bhfeidhm. De réir an Bhille craolacháin seo, sílimid nach mbeidh iolrachas ann go dtí go mbeidh neamhspleáchas nuachta ann do TG4. Ó thaobh an Bhille freisin, teastaíonn maoiniú ilbhliantúil ó TG4. Tá sé curtha ar fáil do RTÉ agus tá sé ag teastáil ó TG4. Chun go mbeadh muid in ann fás go straitéiseach, pleanáil chun cinn agus a bheith ag obair leis an earnáil neamhspleách léiriúcháin níos fearr, is gá cinnteacht agus seasmhacht a bheith againn maidir lenár gconarthaí. Mar sin, tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach dúinn go mbeadh an maoiniú ilbhliantúil sin ar fáil. Táimid éagsúil ó RTÉ sa chaoi gur foilsitheoir-craoltóir muid. Ní bhíonn aon léiriú inmheánach ag TG4. Tá an t-airgead poiblí a fhaigheann muid ar fad á chaitheamh ar an earnáil neamhspleách léiriúcháin. Anuraidh, caitheadh €41 milliún den mhaoiniú poiblí a fuair muid ar an earnáil neamhspleách léiriúcháin. Téann aon airgead amach díreach chuig an earnáil. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbeadh an maoiniú ilbhliantúil sin curtha i bhfeidhm do TG4 chomh maith le RTÉ san athbhreithniú seo ar an scéim ginearálta.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Cén t-ardú buiséid a bheadh ag teastáil ó TG4 chun é a chur ar chomh-scála le S4C nó seirbhís teilifíse Thír na mBascach?
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Idir seo agus 2027, táimid ag lorg €10 milliún sa bhliain sa bhreis ar an méid atá againn faoi láthair, is é sin, €70 milliún in 2026 agus €80 milliún in 2027. Is é sin an t-iarratas atá déanta againn le Coimisiún na Meán chun go mbeimis in ann fás go straitéiseach. Tá bearnaí i sceideal-ábhar TG4. Mar shampla, níl againn ach sraith amháin dhrámaíochta le roinnt mhaith blianta, is é sin "Crá", a craoladh anuraidh agus a raibh an-rath air. Níl a dhóthain cúrsaí reatha iniúchta againn agus táimid ag iarraidh cur le seirbhísí do pháistí ar an gcainéal TG4 agus lenár seirbhísí d'fhoghlaimeoirí Gaeilge mar tá dualgas ag TG4, mar chraoltóir Gaeilge, freastal ar sheirbhísí oideachais agus tacú le scéimeanna agus beartais eile an Rialtais don Ghaeilge.
Ceann mór acu sin is ea an tacaíocht foghlama leis an Roinn oideachais. Tá muid in ann cabhrú le múinteoirí agus ábhair Ghaeilge a chur ar fáil ar shuíomh Foghlaim TG4.
Faoi láthair, tá muid teoranta leis an maoiniú atá againn. Tá muid in ann ár gcroísceideal a líonadh go pointe áirithe agus go méid áirithe seachtain sa bhliain. Tá go leor athchraoltaí mar nach bhfuil a dhóthain maoinithe againn le sceideal 52 seachtain sa bhliain a rith. Chomh maith leis sin, níl muid ag comhlíonadh seánraí a bhfuil daoine ag súil leo ó thaobh meán seirbhíse poiblí, ar nós drámaíochta agus cúrsaí reatha agus nuachta.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Níl mé ag iarraidh go gcuirfear TG4 i gcomparáid le Virgin Media nó RTÉ, ach b’fhéidir gur féidir linn féachaint ar S4C agus stáisiúin teilifíse mionlaigh agus mionteangacha i dtíortha eile. Luaigh Deirdre Ní Choistín níos luaithe coincheap maidir leis an meán uile-ardán. Roimhe seo, d’fhéach muid ar RTÉ i gcomhthéacs na teilifíse agus an raidió amháin. Luaigh Deirdre Ní Choistín go bhfuil bealach difriúil a oibreodh do TG4. An féidir míniú a thabhairt air sin?
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Tá agus bhí riamh. Sheol muid an Seinnteoir i dtosach in 2003. Chuir muid tús le brandaí nua neamhlíneacha in 2017, Molscéal agus Bloc, le freastal ar lucht féachana ar líne seachas ar lucht féachana teilifíse. Tá muid tar éis cur lenár gclúdach spóirt ar an Seinnteoir agus ar YouTube. In amanna, bíonn suas le ceithre nó cúig chluiche in aghaidh an lae ag TG4 idir na hardáin ar fad. Rinne muid digital drop don sraith “Crá” nuair a craoladh é. Chraol muid an chéad chlár agus bhí an tsraith ar fad ar fáil ar an Seinnteoir ina dhiaidh sin. D’éirigh thar cionn leis. Tuigeann muid go bhfuil nósanna an lucht féachana ag athrú. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil taighde déanta ag TAM Ireland, mar shampla, a thaispeánann go mbeidh an bealach ina mbeidh an lucht féachana ag breathnú ar ábhair ag athrú go mór idir seo agus 2035. Tá TG4 chun cinn ó thaobh tuisceana ar an réimse sin agus ó thaobh freastal ar an lucht féachana san áit ina bhfuil siad.
Maidir le comparáid idir TG4 agus S4C, tá thart ar £100 milliún sa bhliain ag S4C, agus tá seasmhacht aige. Tá a fhios aige go mbeidh an maoiniú sin aige gach bliain. Le TG4, níl a fhios againn ó bhliain go bliain cén sórt maoinithe a bheidh ann, rud a chruthaíonn deacrachtaí dúinn, go háirithe ó thaobh pleanála chun cinn agus coimisiúnaithe, le bheith cinnte go bhfuil muid in ann airgead a chur i dtreo léiriúchán le freastal ar an lucht féachana agus an sceideal. Is dá bharr sin go bhfuil muid ag iarraidh go mbeidh an socrú céanna ann do TG4 is atá do RTÉ, is é sin, go mbeidh maoiniú ilbhliantúil cinnte ann a chabhróidh linn fás agus freastal níos fearr ar phobal na Gaeilge.
Rud eile gur ga breathnú air ná cuspóirí nó objects TG4. Tá siad éagsúil ó chinn RTÉ. Is aistriúchán díreach ar na cinn atá ag RTÉ atá san Acht faoi láthair ach tá muid ag iarraidh go mbeidh athbhreithniú ar na cuspóirí sin. Tuigeann muid go bhfuil sé sin le tarlú. Is mian linn go mbeidh na cuspóirí dírithe ar ról sainiúil TG4 mar chraoltóir mionteanga agus go mbeidh aitheantas á thabhairt ar an mbealach a dtacaíonn muid le straitéisí eile an Stáit don Ghaeilge, lena n-airítear an plean digiteach don Ghaeilge, ag tacú le straitéisí foghlama agus ag tacú le forbairt réigiúnach, go háirithe sna Gaeltachtaí. Tá muid ag coinneáil daoine fostaithe sna Gaeltachtaí trí a bheith ag obair leis an earnáil neamhspleách léiriúcháin agus na baill SPI atá lonnaithe sa Ghaeltacht. Tá an gné sin d’obair TG4 thar a bheith tábhachtach. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbeidh sé le feiceáil sa reachtaíocht agus ceangailte le cuspóirí TG4.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Deirdre Ní Choistín. Tiocfaidh mé ar ais.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for all their contributions today and for being here today. First, I wish to acknowledge TG4’s production of sport. It is phenomenal. Coming from someone who is not as good with the Irish language, or even close to being as good, as Deputy Ó Snodaigh or Senator Rónán Mullen, I find myself learning Irish while I am watching club games or the Tour de France. While TG4 might not realise it, accidentally there are a lot of people who do that. While they might not have the confidence in the language, they half understand what the commentary is saying while watching a game. Small things like that are beneficial.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Someone like me finds myself in that gateway accidentally because you have that concern of not having the language. It is helpful. I have two questions. In her written submission, Deirdre Ní Choistín highlighted concerns about the annual review of funding. Adequacy may not be compliant with the European Media Freedom Act. Can she elaborate on that point? What changes to this process does she propose? Second, she also spoke about requiring media funds-supported content to be subject to the creative commons licence. This may incentivise broadcasters to invest in such content. Can she expand on that and what she considers as optimal for media funds-supported content?
Ms Teresa Kenny:
I will start with the creative commons point and the media fund. At present, we have a broadcasting fund which production companies can avail of. That is valuable to the broadcasters because although the broadcasters cannot access that fund directly, productions that broadcasters are funding can be cofunded by the Sound and Vision fund. It is now proposed to change that Sound and Vision fund to a platform-neutral fund, which will be called a media fund. There is some language in the Bill which suggested that Coimisiún an Meán might set down some restrictions on the use of the content and require that content be creative commons content, which means it will be in the public domain. If that were to happen, there would be no incentive for any broadcasters to seek to fund content that is going to be in the public domain. If something is in the public domain, it means the broadcaster who is funding that content does not get exclusive rights to it. For example, if in the morning a production company came to TG4 and said it would like to submit an application to this new media fund for a particular project it has in mind and would like TG4 funding and funding from the new media fund, if that content was going to be public-domain content, it would not be viable for TG4 to fund it. It would be easier for TG4 to sit back and wait for someone else to fund it and then just access the content in the public domain. The broadcaster would not be able to get any exclusive rights in that type of content because everyone could access it. That was the concern around that particular aspect of the language in the Act.
With regard to the Senator’s question about the European Media Freedom Act, EMFA, we hugely welcome the multi-annual funding proposal. We question whether some of the language is consistent with Article 5.1 and Article 5.3 of the EMFA, however. Article 5.1 of the EMFA states that a member state shall ensure public service media providers are editorially and functionally independent and provide in an impartial manner a plurality of information and opinions to their audiences. There is a requirement under Article 5.1 that public service medias will be editorially and functionally independent. Second, under Article 5.3, there is a requirement for sustainable, adequate and predictable funding.
In the context of Article 5.1 around editorial and functional independence, we are a bit concerned that the proposed manner in which the multi-annual funding is structured might inadvertently have the impact that the public service media loses that editorial and functional independence. It is the role of the public service media, and the role of the board of the public service media in particular, to set the strategy for the organisation. With the new proposed multi-annual funding, the regulator - that is, a third party - will, according to the language used in the Bill, "indicate" the performance commitments of the public service media. We are concerned that might inadvertently undermine the role of the board in setting the strategy of the organisation. It might not be consistent with Article 5.1 of the EMFA which requires functional and editorial independence.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I have two minutes left. Witnesses from Virgin Media said in their contribution how proud they are of the work they do, as they rightly should be, and that they tap into a market that is not there. A prime example of that is “Ireland AM”. People get their trusted news of the day, which is important to say, from that show. My household, like many throughout the country, has busy lives. My wife watches “Ireland AM” in the morning and gets her news content at the start of the day from that programme. I very much trust it. It is done in a light-hearted way which resonates with people who might not want to watch other more serious shows.
I have two questions. First, the witnesses touched on the League of Ireland. I thank them for the investment Virgin Media is putting into that because it is critical. We have seen the league improve in recent years. There is greater interest in it and more people are attending matches. It is really critical for society in general.
The witnesses will be aware that the League of Ireland has a ten-year strategy for development and improvement. As the broadcaster that is showing all those games, is Virgin Media in support of the FAI's proposal for the next ten years?
On funding, "The Tonight Show" has been a trusted show since Vincent Browne started it many years ago. People who watch it religiously, almost every night, were disappointed when its schedule was reduced. I understand the difficult financial decisions that have to be made. Kieran Cuddihy is doing a fine job at the moment, much better than the person who was filling in for a while, who is here. It is a trusted organisation.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I am only joking. Gavan is doing fine.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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By way of explanation for those who cannot see, Gavan Reilly is in the Gallery.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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All of them have done a fine job. The serious question is this: if Virgin Media were to go back to four days a week with that show, would it be classed as additional content under the Bill? How possible is it to increase the schedule of "The Tonight Show"? It is trusted by the public. They watch it every night if it is on.
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
It is a great question because the honest answer is that we do not know. It still being put together. We do not know what way the media fund will finish and whether that would constitute additional content. This is the irony. I watched yesterday's session and there is a question as to whether, if we were to pull all our news content on a Monday and put it back on Tuesday, it would all be eligible. It does not seem to make sense. However, it is a fund and we want to be able to access any funds available for the future viability of our business as a public service broadcaster. We hope "The Tonight Show" would qualify because it is off air and has been for quite some time.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Will Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin answer on the League of Ireland?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Tá fáilte roimh ár gcuairteoirí go léir anseo inniu. I thank the witnesses for coming. I am probably in a somewhat unique position having only just become a Senator and joined the Members of the Oireachtas. I spent 30 years prior to this working in media, including television, radio and press, so I feel the witnesses' pain, as I said yesterday. I have lived through a lot of the experiences. For the sake of transparency, I will mention that I worked with Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin for many years in Sky News Ireland, UTV Ireland, though never in Virgin Media. For the sake of transparency also, I started out in Navan community television. That was not today or yesterday. Thankfully, there is no footage of it. I have probably thrown out a challenge to somebody to pull it out.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The search is on.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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The search is on, exactly.
That is my way of saying I deeply understand the issues. I found yesterday's session very interesting in helping us to knit through this Bill to see how we can help the media organisations.
Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin just spoke about additionality and that was a major issue yesterday. I have got her position on it. Does anyone else want to speak about the blocks or obstacles that the concept of additionality is putting in place and how they can be removed? Perhaps we could go to TG4.
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
For us under the media fund, 25% is ring-fenced for Irish-language content and that is critically important for us because our funding does not allow us to commission content solely with TG4 funding. We are reliant on the Sound and Vision fund and Cine4 schemes, for example, and we work closely with the Irish language broadcast fund, ILBF, from Northern Ireland Screen. Therefore, funding is important for us for additionality in terms of our commissioning schedule because we cannot commission solely with TG4 funding.
Our news content is currently provided under section 120 of the Broadcasting Act by RTÉ. It is part of the Future of Media Commission recommendations that TG4 should have independent editorial control. We know from the Reuters Institute Digital News Report published yesterday that Irish-language audiences are also looking for online news and we do not have that at the moment. Until that kind of plurality aspect is put into place and the recommendation implemented, we cannot move forward on serving the Irish-language audiences with a better news service. They are being underserved at the moment in comparison with the ubiquity of English-language news across all platforms and broadcasters. We need to-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Under the Bill, would TG4 be equipped to provide that diversity and plurality?
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
With funding, and with the implementation of the recommendation, we would be. We are working closely with Coimisiún na Meán and RTÉ on moving forward on that, but critically, we did our own research in 2021 and found that Irish-language audiences are looking for an online service for news, which does not exist at the moment. With funding we will be able to deliver that.
With any media fund, we will be able to deliver more content. Those funds are critically important for TG4 to be able to produce high-quality content, especially drama content. With Cine4 schemes, we went to the Oscars with "An Cailín Ciúin". Those kinds of things do not happen without those media funds. Another potential issue is the language around the media fund and archiving. We are reliant on the archive fund from Coimisiún na Meán to help us to digitise and preserve our archive. We need clarity on where the archive fund sits within those funds. Is it a separate fund or will it be part of general funding for TG4? If it is part of general funding, we need to ensure there is enough in it to preserve the archive because to date we have been able to avail of Coimisiún na Meán's archive fund.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Turning to Virgin Media, there may be a perception that it has a parent company with deep pockets, which is ready to back it up or bail it out. What is the actual position?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin touched on the impact it is having on media content, news and current affairs and even staffing. Is it possible to quantify? Media organisations face such challenges now with so many platforms providing free content. Is it possible to quantify the lack of advertising?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
We have seen a significant shift in advertising moving from linear to digital platforms. We have escalated our activities in the digital area. We launched a new player. We are cross-connecting to TV. That is all to try to harness advertising. Another thing that is often said is that we have multiple channels so we should be all right. The reason we have multiple channels is to try to get any available audience, so it is kind of the long tail of advertising. It is in part the reason people are now seeing 66 channels of linear broadcasting, which are all hoovering up that advertising. TAM Ireland and other organisations have shown that digital will only grow and linear will slide in the next five years.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Will Screen Producers Ireland outline its position on the requirement that RTÉ spend 25% of its budget on commissioned content? Is it happy that that will support investment in the independent production sector?
Ms Susan Kirby:
Yes, absolutely. As I said, we absolutely welcome and acknowledge that multiannual funding was committed to for RTÉ last year. That allows RTÉ to plan and engage with our membership in a meaningful way in terms of strategically investing in the sector. We advocate that this be extended beyond 2028 and into the following three years at a minimum. However, it is absolutely critical that it is maintained in the legislation and that RTÉ commits to 25% of all public funding being spent in the independent production sector, not least because it is a recommendation of the Future of Media Commission report, but also because it underpins RTÉ's strategy.
I might also take a slightly wider view. If we look at the fact that the audiovisual media services directive, AVMSD, works levy may not be introduced and there could be movement on the investment at 25%, our sector could be looking at a situation where two significant pillars of funding would be eroded, undermined or delayed, which is frankly unpalatable. What does that mean? It means independent producers who are largely SMEs based all over Ireland - regional employers, which are the foundation of plurality in media and creative output - would be undermined and under-resourced. While we have sympathy with RTÉ's position on meeting that 25%, it is critical for the committee to insist it is met.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We will certainly look at that.
I have a quick question for the community sector.
Does it feel it is sufficiently recognised in this Bill?
Mr. Bill Tyson:
We do not. In the original broadcasting Bill, the word "community" is mentioned 87 times. There are mentions of community, but what we are concerned about is that the community broadcaster is not distinguished from regional and local broadcasters, which seems to be a bit of an anomaly. That is something we are very concerned about.
The amount of funding that we are seeking, not just for community television but for the community radio sector, is €4 million, which sounds like a lot but it is not when it is divided between 21 radio stations and two community TV stations.
Senator Comyn mentioned that she worked with Navan TV, which was a great resource. There were three, but we now have two community TV stations. It is a real struggle to survive. In the past ten years we had no core funding whatsoever. At times, we were surviving on less than €20,000 a year to run a TV station by scrabbling funding together from various sources. We now have some core funding, at €75,000, less than half of which is for content, and some for staffing. We are talking about crumbs off the table for us. You are getting a lot of bang for your buck. For a few minutes of content on RTÉ, we can run a whole community TV station.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I will try to bring Mr. Tyson back in if I get more time. I thank him for that.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na finnéithe. Having been on the previous Oireachtas committee for the past five years, I am afraid that there is a Groundhog Day element to some of the discussion because some of these are big picture issues we have been talking about for a while. The challenge with the legislation is that ultimately we need to see public service broadcasting as a public good but, equally, it is critically important that we ensure Irish voices and Irish stories are told nationally and internationally. We have had great success. "An Cailín Ciúin" is a excellent example of that, and it is a coproduction which is a model for what we need to achieve.
I am conscious of time. I will ask two related questions and I would like to get quick answers to each. Are we being ambitious in this legislation? If we are to achieve the goals we want to achieve, what is the one thing the witnesses would like to see, bearing in mind the the Future of Media Commission reports as well? The two questions are related. Perhaps each of the groups could have one minute each.
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
In order to protect public service broadcasting, it must be defined. Everyone says it is hard to define, but it must carry a licence from Coimisiún na Meán. If we want to protect media plurality and get away from disinformation, we need to do something to protect the sources that deliver that. That is what I would suggest.
Mr. Eddie Noonan:
Community media is very different from public service media and commercial media. In the community, we are very much on the ground working with people in collaboration. They are involved from pre-production to post-production. We will have a Traveller group over tomorrow in our community hub. We are just finishing a documentary on education. The reason they are coming over is to have the final say and editorial control on this documentary. Public service and commercial broadcasting cannot do that.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am thinking about the ambition as well as one key element.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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No.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What is the best model?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious that I am speaking on the record on this, but when talking about public service media, what are the countries we should look at?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I again put on the record that Finland has always been a place that we have said we should benchmark ourselves against.
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Trust in news is highest in Finland, according to yesterday's Reuters Digital News Report. It really invests in PSM. That is something we need to do.
The objectives of TG4 are vastly different from those of other PSMs. We have a very different remit as an Irish language broadcaster. We must support economic goals, social goals and language transmission as well as being entertaining and informing our audiences. We have a large remit that must be recognised in the legislation.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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This follows on from Deputy Ó Snodaigh's questions. As someone who grew up with S4C coming in to me from the Welsh coast, it is also a useful model in terms of looking at the objectives that were set out there.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I want to talk about the streaming levy, which it is critical to put in place. We had years of debate and I thought it was a settled argument. We had a discussion only yesterday evening about the net effect of the cost on the streamers. The committee might look at the fact that the cost of streaming services in Ireland is higher for the consumer than is the case anywhere else, especially when we are only talking about an increase of something like 30 cent.
Let us just talk about it being quantified at €20 million. What difference would it make? There are a lot of very high quality productions coming in at the moment. If the €20 million were made available - I am happy to hear from Ms Kirby and anyone who want to come in and respond - what tangible difference would that make?
Ms Susan Kirby:
I can speak about our membership and the wider creative ecology that our membership supports. Something Ireland does very well, which we should be very proud of, is what we call inbound work. This is those big flag global productions like "Wednesday". We do that very well. It develops our crews and creates a global calling card.
Another thing that Ireland does exceptionally well is those beautiful, creatively told pieces which are inherently Irish and can be created nowhere else. It is about striking the balance between those that, in our view, creates the most dynamic and sustainable industry in terms of the independent production sector. It means that we have a regionally balanced sector with hubs driving them. Let us imagine the big inbound work with regional work being supported as well. There is a wide and rich creative ecology there.
In our mind, the introduction of a content levy is based on a very simple principle. It is that where we derive significant financial benefit, we reinvest. That reinvestment is ring-fenced towards Irish creatives telling Irish stories and retaining intellectual property, IP, in their own creative stories. It allows us as an industry to build both creatively and in the capacity of our companies to create IP.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is crucial that we praise the quality of the productions that have been created here in Ireland. I put this question to whoever wants to take it up.
Who will commission a decent Irish political drama?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I remember that. It has been a while since there has been one. There has been a book published about Leinster House.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It probably depends on how we change the legislation for the better.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We see the quality of some of the drama and documentaries coming out by all of the providers and it does require funding.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Absolutely.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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This is why I am worried about the legislation not being sufficiently ambitious.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all of our witnesses. The majority of my questions have already been asked and answered but I have a follow-up point for Ms Kirby, who has used the word "critical" regarding 25% of the public money given to RTÉ being invested in the independent production sector. There has been a suggestion that reaching this figure be delayed. What are Ms Kirby's views on this and what impact would such a delay have?
Ms Susan Kirby:
We listened to all of the contributors and the evidence given to the committee in the same way as everybody did. We are aware that due to fixed costs and other challenges it has, RTÉ is signalling its intent to reach the 25% minimum but, to paraphrase, it is looking for flexibility in the timeframe. This is enormously challenging for our sector to hear and to accept, especially when we take into account the fact there is a wider issue of core pillars of funding not coming into the sector. For RTÉ to be successful in achieving its own strategy, 25% should be maintained as the legislative requirement for it to invest in the independent production sector.
Not having this 25% investment is already having an impact. Irish drama is enormously underserved. I was going to make the point to Deputy Malcolm Byrne that another feature of our sector is that it is a complex global sector. If we look at what we perceive as Irish drama, in a number of cases how it is constructed is what we call cocktail funding. It requires the input of our national broadcaster as the first investor and the producer then takes it to the market. Without the initial backing by our broadcaster nine times out of ten it will be unsuccessful at market. It is critical that our broadcaster can invest in our producers, so they can then leverage and bring in additional funding.
I was struck by some of the figures in RTÉ's annual report which spoke about co-production funding brought in by producers. This is in the region of approximately €20 million. This is the inflection point. A producer can get a relatively small investment from RTÉ and then attract additional investment. From our perspective, it is key that RTÉ meets the 25%. I am giving drama as an example but across all of the genres of our members' productions some of them are underserved, children's programming being another one. There is a real issue if we look forward five, ten or 15 years. When children's programming is entirely given to us by large streamers with large budgets, coming from a different jurisdiction and a different cultural nuance, we can expect, and it will happen, that in five, ten or 15 years our children will be utterly influenced by this, without an Irish influence. I referenced earlier that we all hear a mid-Atlantic accent, which is an accent from a country that does not exist.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is interesting that Ms Kirby raises this. I have two godchildren. These boys are relatively young and they watch programmes on YouTube. They use phrases such as "throw this in the trash". It is very American. This is one example I can think of off the top of my head. Ms Kirby is right that we lose cultural identity.
Ms Susan Kirby:
Children do not go to the shop to buy sweets, they go to the store to buy candy and they throw diapers in the trash. It is a demonstration of a much bigger issue, which is an erosion of our culture. As I mentioned earlier, it is about balance. It is being able to have access to all of this wonderful content and having strong Irish content with the same prominence and levels of investment as our international counterparts. This allows our industry to be competitive and global.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I completely respect and understand that Ms Kirby is future proofing and looking ahead five or ten years and the impact it will have broadly in this regard. Is there any immediate loss if RTÉ does not meet this obligation?
Ms Susan Kirby:
Absolutely. There will be underinvestment and it will not hit its target for its own strategy. I have to say we are not across the exact investments it is planning but it will have a direct impact. RTÉ referenced fixed costs. I presume this, therefore, means we are considered a variable cost. This means we will be subject to the cut. We are making a plea on behalf of our industry to say that while we are sympathetic to RTÉ's economic challenge, we too need to be protected as an industry and to be protected economically. We would like to see RTÉ commit to that 25%.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Virgin Media for its coverage of the League of Ireland. I am heavily involved in the League of Ireland and I know there is frustration among supporters that there has not been accessibility to matches through our national broadcaster. The deal is monumental for Virgin and it is certainly monumental for supporters of the League of Ireland. Long may it continue and well done.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na haíonna ar fad. Tá brón orm nach mbeidh an t-am agam ceist a chur ar gach duine. I will begin with Virgin Media with a question on the importance of media plurality, which it referenced in its submission. It referenced news and current affairs programming and in-depth reportage on range of issue. I will go back to an exchange I had in recent times at the committee with the director general of RTÉ. I and many others believe there is a balance and diversity problem in RTÉ, the main public service broadcaster. I referenced specifically the way in which more socially conservative viewpoints seem to fall outside the Overton window when it comes to coverage of public affairs, current affairs and the general cultural content. I asked the director general whether RTÉ would test for diversity in the organisation in terms of viewpoints and whether it was affecting its output. It is an irony that at this time, when there is all this talk about diversity, very often there seems to be a shortage of diversity in RTÉ on certain issues. It is not paranoia to observe this.
This is feeding into the debate about misinformation and disinformation. While undoubtedly there are international problems that contribute to it, there is an issue of non-information and the exclusion of certain viewpoints. There is a strong distinction between the type of truthful information we can get online compared with what is permitted to be heard, said and discussed on RTÉ. The witnesses presumably want more public service money. They have received approximately €200,000 year over the past two years. It is paltry compared to what RTÉ is getting. It is in the market for other money from the Sound and Vision fund. Do the witnesses reflect on the issue of diversity? I noticed when we were progressing the hate speech legislation that the "Tonight Show" was quicker to the issues then RTÉ. Are the witnesses willing to state here they think they can have a greater pluralism than RTÉ? Would they seek funding on this basis? Could they put it up to the public service broadcaster if they agree with any aspect of the analysis I am putting to them?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
We have very robust editorial policy and procedures in place to make sure we are fair and balanced in all of our output. This is reflected on air in what we see on our screens and behind the scenes. With regard to the misinformation and getting to an audience, we have had year-on-year growth of 12% in our news.
However, we are aware that certain demographics do not watch news in a traditional sense so we have to be careful to ensure we are reaching that audience. We have taken a different approach from a digital perspective to access people on YouTube, TikTok and Instagram. We have seen significant growth in that. We have spent time on it. I do not want to talk to Gavan Reilly because he is in the room but a very good example of clarity on what we do on the electoral procedure was the Smarties video, which reached 3.8 million views and had 83,000 interactions. That was about taking away any lack of clarity that people may have around voting and the electoral process. We have policies in place and we make sure that we actively review them on a continual basis.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It still concerns me. There is an awful lot to be said for public service investment, and we all accept that. I want to echo what Deputy Malcolm Byrne said about public service broadcasting as a public good. However, it is important that the public recognises it to be a good and they will only recognise it to be a good if there is trust. On a range of issues in recent years, issues on which people have divergent and sometimes passionately held views, there has been a real lack of diversity in mainstream media, whether we want to cite migration, aspects of the way the Covid pandemic crisis was covered or issues I have often spoken about, like bioethical controversies, family issues, social issues and so on. However, if every organisation wants to suck at the teat of the State, if you will pardon the agricultural expression, the problem is that people end up censoring themselves and, basically, end up falling into line - there has to be a certain way of talking about things, we do not want to be seen as awkward and so on. Is it possible for us to get to new ground where there is greater diversity? It is sometimes not about the misinformation. It is about the exclusion of whole points of view, the questions that are not asked and the people who are not brought on.
In a sense, Virgin Media is a significant competitor of RTÉ. Does Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin agree there is a problem? Does she reflect on it? Does she consider it in terms of looking at the diversity within Virgin Media’s own ranks or, like Kevin Bakhurst, would she consider that as a kind of North Korean solution?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
I cannot really talk about the policies of RTÉ. What I can say is that we have an impartial approach to all of our programming, from “Ireland AM” in the morning right through to the news and current affairs. It is not just within the news remit that we ensure we have that impartiality. When the Senator looks at how we approach all of the content across Virgin Media, he will see that we are impartial in our approach. I have never felt any pressure to be anything other than that. I have never felt any pressure to toe the line. We have independence across our news and current affairs programming.
Mr. Peter McCarthy:
To add to that, we take pride in being the diverse voice as opposed to the national broadcaster, RTÉ, or TG4. We are seen to challenge things and, as Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin said in the opening statement, to have that media plurality. That is why, from our perspective, we want to ensure we continue to do that, continue to challenge and continue to ask the tough questions of the Government and generally around Ireland as well. From our perspective, it is very expensive to put on these shows, given the good quality and diverse nature of them. That is the main reason for the-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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How does Virgin Media deal with the temptation not to put ratings at the centre of the editorial decision and, indeed, advertising, given it is so dependent on it?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Cuirim an cheist chéanna ar mo chairde ó TG4. Tugaim faoi deara go bhfuil éagsúlacht ar leith le mothú ina cuid cláracha. Tá atmaisféar difriúil ar fad nuair a bhítear ag plé le ceisteanna. Bíonn dá thaobh, trí thaobh agus ceithre thaobh na gceisteanna á gcíoradh ag TG4. Cad é a dhéanann an difríocht? Cén fáth go bhfuil an bias liobrálach seo le mothú amantaí ó RTÉ ach go bhfuil níos mó éagsúlachta le mothú ó TG4?
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Manna TG4 ná “Súil Eile” so tugann muid súil eile ar an saol; a different perspective on Irish and international life. Tá polasaí éagsúlachta againn mar eagraíocht agus déanaimid iarracht glórtha agus daoine eile a chur os comhair an phobail inár gcláracha. Tá sé mar bhunús ag cláracha TG4 ón tús go dtugtar léargas agus malairt tuairimí ach leanaimid treoirlínte Choimisiún na Meán agus chóid Choimisiún na Meán freisin maidir le caighdeán na gclár agus nuacht agus cúrsaí reatha. Tá treoirlínte eagarthóireachta daingean agus láidir againn chomh maith.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Mar fhocal scoir, mar tá mo chuid ama caite, I would like to hear from all of the witnesses, if they believe there is validity in the question that is being put, and how this legislation before us could be adjusted, changed or amended to try to secure this objective of diversity. On the presence or otherwise of that genuine diversity depends public trust, and that is going to determine our common future as a people in this country.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Tá brón orm as bheith ag teacht agus ag imeacht. Bhíos ar RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta.
I dtús báire, ba mhaith liom ceist a chur. Bhíomar ag labhairt inné mar gheall ar citizen journalists agus podcasting. Deputy Byrne was talking about podcasting yesterday and, for want of a better description, the Americanisation of some of the media. There is the potential for that to spill over here, often involving people with clear agendas and clear biases, and it can become serialised in some way, shape or form in broadcasting. I ask the witnesses to speak about whether a citizen journalist can, in theory, access this funding for independent news and broadcasting under what we are talking about here. Do they have concerns about that? If I turn on Virgin Media, RTÉ or TG4, I know I am getting decent, reliable, trustworthy and balanced broadcasting. I might not always like it but it is relatively fair as opposed to what I have just described. Do the witnesses have concerns about what is potentially coming down the tracks?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
I think anybody in receipt of funding has to follow a code of ethics and guidelines to make sure that they are compliant and that it is impartial, fair and balanced. We all see it. We see what is out in the market. We have dabbled - that is probably the best way to describe it - in the world of podcasting but we apply the same stringent rules from an editorial perspective to podcasting that we apply to something that is broadcast on news or current affairs.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the parameter for that?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does anyone else wish to comment?
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
On the Reuters digital news reports, Ireland scores very high on trust. We are 11th out of 48 countries so we are very high on trust in news and public service media, which is to be welcomed because it is not so high, for example, in the UK and elsewhere.
Regarding the schemes, any scheme that supports journalism is to be welcomed. I understand there are difficulties for some of the other media but for Irish-language media in particular, it is to be welcomed. Anywhere we can increase access to journalism in the Irish language has to be welcomed.
In terms of podcasting, again we are one of the higher countries in the report, with 12% listening to news podcasts. There is a clear demand for an alternative way to access news. With regard to the Bill, we need to think multi-platform rather than seeing it as a threat. It is serving the audience where they want to listen to content. At the moment, it is podcasts but that might change. We should be able to facilitate that as a media provider and provide content where the audience wants to find it.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The TG4 submission suggested there may be issues around the European Media Freedom Act. Will the witnesses elaborate on the concerns that the review of funding adequacy may not be compliant with the European Media Freedom Act?
Ms Teresa Kenny:
That is no problem. We very much welcome the proposal that there would be multi-annual funding for PSM. At present, RTÉ has multi-annual funding by virtue of a Government decision but TG4 does not at present have that. It is proposed that it will happen under the legislation and we welcome that.
We have concerns about some of the language and that the process might inadvertently not be compliant with the EMFA. Article 5.1 of the EMFA requires that PSM be editorially and functionally independent.
We have a query as to whether the fact that an external third party - in this instance it is our regulator, Coimisiún na Meán - will be permitted to select the performance commitments of the PSM. We feel that this might inadvertently not be consistent with Article 5.1 of the EMFA. Under legislation, the board of the PSM has a statutory duty to set the strategy of the corporation. If a third party sets the performance commitments, based on the proposed multi-annual process, the performance commitments will then be the basis for the strategy, which the board will set. It seems to be quite inconsistent with Article 5.1 of the EMFA. It also might undermine the role of the board. That was the concern.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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My last questions are for Virgin Media. Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin stated in her submission that it provides so much public service content but does not actually receive any public funding for that. What percentage of its overall output is public service programming?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
From an independent perspective, 22.5% of our Irish content budget goes toward the independent sector. From a Sound and Vision perspective, we have supported the independent sector since 2022 with approximately €4.9 million. Relating to what Ms Kirby was saying, thisy brought in €37 million to the sector through Coimisiún na Meán funding and section 481. It grows the independent sector. We put into it. We do 36.5 hours of live public service content a week. The commissions and acquisitions are additional to that.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Virgin Media confident or does it have any expectation as to whether it will be able to stick with that at that level? Does Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin have concerns about it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will ask a couple of questions. I am conscious that my colleagues want to get in, so I might not use all the time. We are caught for time. Unfortunately, Oireachtas committees now do not last as long because there are too many of them. A lot of other committees are suffering as a result.
All of my questions have been asked, some of them multiple times. I want to get a little bit subjective. I do not want a big long spiel, but how did each witness feel subjectively and emotionally when he or she heard the Minister announced the scrapping of the streaming levy?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know. I want to hear about what is in Ms Ní Choistín's gut and what she feels emotionally about it.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Chair is really getting into it-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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He wants to feel your pain.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I want to hear the witnesses' instincts because it is a big point for us.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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How did Ms Ní Choistín feel?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Was Ms Ní Choistín happy or sad?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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He has already made his decision.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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TG4 hopes he will change his decision.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I can guess where the next answer will go. Go on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What way did you feel?
Ms Susan Kirby:
We felt shocked and deflated because this had been an industry-wide effort over a number of years. There was a lot of benefit in working together as an industry in that way. We also felt a degree of pragmatism because we are not immune to looking at the geopolitical environment and acknowledging that it is potentially a bad time for what we believe is still an important and good idea.
Mr. Eddie Noonan:
We did not discuss it as an association. It is a controversial thing to be putting an extra tax on people, but from a general perspective, community broadcasting globally would be in favour of having more funding for the sector. What we would say collectively is that core funding is something really important in order that people can be supported and know they will get funding.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What is Ms Ní Chaoindealbháin thinking now?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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In other words, the quid pro quo does not cut it. Most of my questions have been asked but I was very taken by the three-year review, on which I have a query. Things move so fast that broadcasters might have to be more dynamic. That is one thing.
The second point relates to additionality. It has come up in this committee all the time. After the levy, additionality is the issue that comes up the most. I think Senator Ahearn asked a question on it. "The Tonight Show" is an example. It is the most obvious, open and straightforward example of something that has been withdrawn or shortened but could be brought back and will probably qualify. We are not clear as a committee as to what the rules are and we have gone through this legislation upside down and inside out. We are not clear with regard to what additionality is. We are not clear on whether, if something is taken away, it can be added back or must be started again and where the cut-off lines are. This show is probably the greatest example for the committee as a line because it is a well-known show that went from four nights a week to two nights a week. I know; I was on it a few times.
I have a simple question for the Department, which will be watching this as it watches everything, and the Minister, who will be reported to. If "The Tonight Show" returns to four days or three nights a week, will it qualify? Is that an example? It is obvious from what the witnesses have said today that they cannot produce the same level of content into the future as they did in the past. This is an example of where we need to go. Does anyone have any observations on that point or on my point regarding the three-year review before I move on?
Ms Susan Kirby:
The Cathaoirleach raised timing. Next year is an important year for Ireland. We will hold the EU Presidency from July next year. In that timeframe, the audiovisual media services directive will be reviewed. That will be an important period of debate on the implementation of the directive.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I agree with Ms Kirby. It will also be a time when the Irish Government will want a lot of public service content. I also sit on the justice committee. It is amazing that the Garda Representative Association was pointing out that this is a time when we need an awful lot of resources from An Garda Síochána. I think the witnesses will know what I am saying. It will be a time where we will need to put our best foot forward. I hope the Government will be in a position to support both sides.
We will have a very quick round of additional questions because we have a lot of tricky stuff to do in private session, which will take at least half an hour. Members may ask one question each and they have two minutes. I will start with Deputy Gibney.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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That has thrown me because I had a load of questions that I was going to fire quickly. I put out a question last night which has just yielded some interesting answers and I would like to hear from the witnesses.
It concerns their view of big tech. We have talked a little bit about how the advertising landscape has shifted. Do the witnesses support the view that platforms should be publishers? I am particularly keen to hear the broadcasters' views on that.
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
It does not impact us in the same way it impacts the people who were in the session yesterday. We are using all platforms and services to publish ourselves because we have to hit all demographics and all audiences. We try to optimise these platforms and streamers with our own content. Our biggest challenge is the prominence, or lack of prominence, of our content on those.
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
Given the way audiences watch more IP-based platforms, we need that prominence to be enacted so public service media is visible and findable. YouTube is a platform we consider a distribution channel for content but not necessarily a content creator. For TG4, it is about using the platforms to reach audiences but the prominence aspect of the OSMR needs to be implemented for public service media, particularly as the TAM Ireland study shows fewer people watch linear television in the way they did, with cable and all the rest. It is going more towards Internet-based television. If public service media is not findable, we will not have relevance and will not be operating in the same circumstances as we are now.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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A question bothering many people concerns AI. I will not ask about it in general because it is so wide. More particularly, how can this Bill allow content producers to benefit from content that is often misused or even used properly but without creators getting the benefits? What can we do in this legislation? Is it the right place to look at it?
Ms Susan Kirby:
It is a very top-of-mind topic in our sector and more widely in terms of Government policy. AI is here as an industry in our case and a lot of benefit is being derived from productively and constructively working with AI, improving workflows and remote working. On the creative side, there is a lot happening around AI and generative work. Our contention is that there has to be protection of creative rights and IP as part of that. Wherever that can be baked into legislation, we would endorse that.
Deputy Byrne is chair of the AI committee as well, so we would welcome any opportunity to feed into how the industry can constructively engage with AI with the goal of protecting creative rights while maximising our ability to use AI. If that is not too broad an answer, that would be our goal.
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
AI is not going away so we have taken a different approach and tried to embrace it in what we do. A year and a half ago, we did what we still believe to be a world first. An "Ireland AM" show was created and generated through AI with the support of producers. It was a learning exercise to see what could be done and it has evolved since. It was by no means taking people out of the equation but it was improving what we delivered and the speed it was delivered at.
Most recently, on 1 June, we went to AI subtitles. We really involved our user groups because access services are very important to us. We have found AI faster than the lag time when a person manually puts up subtitles. We have received very positive feedback on it and will continue to look at it as a tool to support what we deliver.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I will go back to what the Chair said about "The Tonight Show" and additional content. We do not know whether it qualifies, as the Chair said, but the real question is whether, if it is found to qualify, Virgin Media is committed to going back to four days per week on "The Tonight Show"?
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
If it qualifies, we are certainly committed to looking at additional current affairs, whether "The Tonight Show" or a different form of content. We realise the importance of it. It was not an easy decision to make; it was very difficult. There was a question of whether it would go entirely and we had to really make an effort to keep it. We believe in the product, what it delivers and how it informs. Subject to the fund, we would look at it very strongly and positively.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Is it something Virgin Media wants to go back to? Does it see it as a success?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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And the only reason it is not there four nights is financial.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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So, if it qualifies, then it is an option.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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As I promised, I will let the community television side in again. Will the witnesses clarify whether they get funding from the licence fee? If so, has the recent drop in payments of the fee by the public impacted them?
Mr. Bill Tyson:
In the past, we were funded through Sound and Vision, which was a bit of a lottery because you have to go through a big process, make an application and you may be successful or may not be. About 12 years ago, we were incredibly successful. I was not involved then. We employed seven people and had a studio and hundreds of thousands of euro were coming in. Then literally all that stopped and nothing came in for several years, which put us into a financial crisis. We paid all those debts subsequently but it was a difficult period. We now get some funding for training. It amounts to less than €20,000 annually. We get social benefit funding from the Sound and Vision fund, which we greatly welcome and is a step in the right direction. It is worth about €75,000. Some goes on content and staffing. It is not a huge amount of money but it is regular. We have to apply for it every year but we have been getting it for the past couple of years. That is where we are at.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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When I was in school, I managed to work in community television. It is a fantastic foundation for anybody who wants a career in broadcasting. Does community television have any links with educational facilities? Is that something it needs funding for or has funding for?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The Joint Committee on Artificial Intelligence mentioned by Ms Kirby will be doing a module on AI and creativity in the autumn. We are now consuming media in so many ways. It is on our phones and right across the board. This comes back to where the Sound and Vision fund and media fund are. It is about recognising diversity but there is also a role for what I would call nation-building. We all recall signature moments growing up, whether sporting, news or cultural. While it is also important to recognise diversity, I see that as part of the purpose of the media fund. To me, that is part of the additionality. I am thinking of the recommendations we will make around this legislation and I am curious how we can contribute towards that. It is also a way of combating polarisation, disinformation and misinformation. I am conscious of time. I ask TG4 and Virgin to respond.
Ms Deirdre Ní Choistín:
The review of the objects would be a way to do that because our objects currently do not really reflect the full work TG4 does.
On nation-building, it is particularly important for us that what we do in Irish-language content for children, particularly native Irish speakers, is recognised as well as the educational aspect. The review of the objects is to happen at the same time as the review of the Bill.
Ms Áine Ní Chaoindealbháin:
We all remember those marquee moments, whether positive or challenging. We have been at the forefront of bringing those stories to light. I refer, for example, to the difficulty throughout Covid-19 or to the Gogglebox experience. We put a lot of effort into making sure our content and what is reflected on screen has a regionality aspect.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Can we do something more specifically in the legislation on that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That was a quick ending. I thank the witnesses for coming in today. It has been very enlightening, as was yesterday's session. There is a lot of food for thought. I thank the witnesses for their frankness and honesty in the way they engaged with the committee. We are going through this legislation in detail. We will come out with recommendations subsequent to all of these meetings. We are meeting twice a week to try to get through all of this. We have to hear from a vast number of people. As far as we are concerned - I think I speak collectively - the legislation needs to be narrowed down in a number of areas which are causing quite a level of confusion and concern. Additional legitimate issues have been raised by all of the witnesses.