Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 17 June 2025
Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration
Policing Matters: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No apologies have been received. Deputies Mark Ward and Catherine Callaghan have indicated that they are doing business in the Chamber and will be here as soon as possible. I remind members to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode.
The purpose of this meeting is to have engagement with the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors and the Garda Representative Association on policing matters. While we will focus on policing matters generally, we have indicated to our guests that we would like to specifically discuss the areas of recruitment and retention, the divisional operational model, community policing and roads traffic policing. On behalf of the committee, I extend a very warm welcome to Mr. Ronan Clogher, general secretary of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, Mr. Kevin Bolger, deputy general secretary, and Mr. Declan Higgins, president of the association. From the Garda Representative Association, we welcome Mr. Ronan Slevin, general secretary, Mr. Niall Hodgins, vice president, and Ms Tara McManus, assistant general secretary.
Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I will advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The format of the meeting is that we will invite each organisation to make an opening statement of a maximum of three minutes. Once the opening statements have been delivered, I will invite members of the committee to put their questions in the order in which they indicate to me. To manage the committee's time effectively, I propose that each member commence with an initial five minutes or so of engagement with the witnesses. This includes both questions and answers, so it is important that members and respondents be as succinct as possible. When we have gone through the first round of questions, we will open it up to a second round and perhaps even subsequent rounds if time allows. The duration of the meeting is limited so I ask people for their co-operation. I will now invite each organisation to deliver its opening statement, beginning with Mr. Slevin.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
On behalf of the Garda Representative Association, I thank the Cathaoirleach and the joint committee for the invitation to make our submission on a number of policing matters. Our submission will primarily focus on all matters relating to the brief given, plus a number of other issues of deep concern to our membership and what we believe affects the safe delivery of a policing service that meets the needs of the public we serve.
First, we will address the ongoing crisis in recruitment and retention. Garda management’s report Transforming An Garda Síochána 2018-2024, published just last week, made one glaring and obvious omission in that it failed to address the issue of inadequate numbers in our force. It also failed to address any failures in this respect over the past seven years or to offer any recommendations or solutions as to how this issue can be resolved. During the term this report refers to, the number of Garda members has reduced from almost 15,000 to just over 14,000. This is at a time when the population has exploded by 500,000. Both the Government and the Commissioner himself have admitted in recent months that this number should be far greater. We at the GRA believe that this number should be somewhere nearer 17,000 to fall into line with similar jurisdictions of comparable size and demographics.
This current recruitment and retention crisis has been ongoing for the last five years. The problem began in 2019, when the Commissioner reduced the planned and approved intake of 800 recruits to 600. The following year, 2020, saw the pandemic. Garda management closed the Garda College until 2021, when recruitment recommenced but with lower numbers. These low numbers of applications have continued to this day, with just 120 attested in the latest round instead of the promised 200.
In the absence of any meaningful engagement or collaboration with the Government and associated parties, at the end of 2024, the GRA proposed a number of measures to tackle this crisis, including raising the Garda trainee allowance, an increment on the pay of fully trained and attested members, fewer points on the public pay scale to expedite members' reaching an affordable living wage, an accommodation allowance for large urban areas to help attract new recruits, and a long-service increment and improved pension rewards to encourage longer retention of the experienced members we already have. Unfortunately, these suggestions have been met with a wall of silence to date.
There remains a very significant issue with morale within the ranks of An Garda Síochána, with little action being taken to address the issue. The continuous issuing of policies and procedures that members must comply with and the excessive use of discipline and suspension have resulted in members being in fear of receiving any form of complaint as there is little trust in the discipline process. Sadly, the recently enacted conduct, performance and standards of professional behaviour regulations will do little to dispel this fear. The now infamous bicycle case not only highlights the excessive use of suspension but also highlights the lack of understanding among senior Garda members of how community policing works. The more recent case in Limerick, where a member was cleared of all 22 charges after an investigation that lasted nearly seven years while he languished on suspension, further highlights the fears members face when they perform their duty and complaints and investigations are launched.
The current operational policing model, OPM, was introduced in 2019 as part of the Government reform program A Policing Service for Our Future, which arose from the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. The aim of this model was to modernise the Garda by decentralising decision-making, enhancing community engagement and improving front-line visibility. This has proved to be an unmitigated disaster and is not fit for purpose. It has created super-sized divisions that span many counties and has starved communities of local stations and local policing. In many ways, "division" is the key word here as that is exactly what this model has caused between our trusted and dedicated members and the public and communities they serve. Prior to the implementation of the OPM, Ireland possessed the most desired model of community policing in the policing world. As a result of the OPM, the local garda has been stripped from the community. Where previously the majority of incidents in country areas were investigated by the local garda, which resulted in increased local knowledge being applied, under the OPM, while most incidents are still investigated, this is now done by gardaí stationed miles away who have little or no knowledge of the community and no real reason to expand that knowledge. We discuss this further in our submission and respectfully invite questions, but suffice it to say the OPM continues to encounter challenges and fails to deliver on the commitments made.
As for roads policing, the Garda Commissioner appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport last year, where he committed to adding 75 members to the roads policing unit in 2024 and a further 75 in 2025. Despite this, only 23 members were added last year. In February 2025, around 620 members were attached to roads policing. In 2009, that figure was in excess of 1,000.
The last time we appeared before this committee was back in October 2023, when we outlined many of these same issues. We also spoke of our fears about the lack of proper public order training and safety equipment. Just one month later, we witnessed some of the most shameful riots ever seen on our capital city, followed by the disturbances in Coolock just months later. The committee then published a number of recommendations, including: that high visibility of gardaí must be maintained, with an increased emphasis on recruitment; that an independent pay review body be established to address pay and pensions, including supplementary pension reform; that the three-county divisional operational model be re-examined; and that comprehensive in-person training and driver training be reintroduced alongside the establishment of a pursuit policy. Simply not enough has been done to address these issues and recommendations in the intervening 18 months.
It was once the case that the best recruiters for careers in An Garda Síochána were gardaí themselves. Sadly, this is no longer the case. Exit interviews carried out by the GRA clearly show serious areas of concern among members who have decided to leave the organisation. These issues, in conjunction with the overall feeling of low morale, recently led to a vote of no confidence in the Garda Commissioner. Sadly, little has changed since. Denial of low morale and associated issues continue. I thank the members for their time.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, thanks the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the invitation to attend and address the committee this afternoon. The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors is a conservative but progressive Garda representative body mandated to pursue and seek improvements to our memberships' terms and conditions of employment, with the public interest along with the provision of efficient and effective service delivery at the beating heart of this association and its membership.
Recruitment and retention remain a significant challenge for An Garda Síochána. Difficulties experienced securing new entrants and retaining members have been frustratingly consistent over the past five years, with numbers hovering either side of the 14,000 mark. The AGSI is of the view that the optimum strength of sworn members of An Garda Síochána should be in the region of 18,000. This is due to population increases and evolving policing demands.
An Garda Síochána is now entrenched within a cycle of continual failures to meet recruitment targets year on year. This failure has not been sufficiently recognised by Government or Garda management, with the Government in recent years attributing this to Covid, full employment and lifestyle choices. The AGSI believes the first step in achieving a solution to recruitment and retention difficulties is a full recognition of the fundamental root causes of this problem, which this association believes are and surround pay and pensions, social media, excessive oversight and bureaucracy, change fatigue, workload, work-related stress, morale, negativity, stakeholder exclusion and industrial relations processes.
The AGSI recognises that some minor initiatives have been implemented in recent years, but these are short-term remedies and are not the radical measures required to meet the immediate and long-term strategic requirements of the organisation.
On the divisional and operating model, it is the resounding view of the membership of the AGSI that the operating model has had a profoundly negative effect on policing, and it is well known that there is significant public dissatisfaction with the service delivery provided by An Garda Síochána following its introduction. The model has been adopted from similar policing models utilised internationally, but a fundamental and fatal flaw is that the architects of the Irish version failed to take account of the unique policing and geographical requirements within this jurisdiction. The AGSI is of the view that the current operating model has negatively affected interactive community policing in this country. It is no surprise that international police forces have recognised the fundamental flaws with the operating model and are now withdrawing from this model and returning to more traditional tried and tested policing methods.
Some positive developments have arisen out of the operating model, such as the business services hub, which transferred administration tasks to Garda staff. However, from an operational perspective, it is difficult to recognise where service improvements and efficiencies have been achieved. The creation of divisional protective services units has been a very positive development for the organisation. However, this is an initiative that was not reliant on the introduction of the operating model and could have been established under the previous traditional policing model within An Garda Síochána. Policing in this jurisdiction following the introduction of the operating model is underpinned by a reliance on overtime.
The AGSI conducted questionnaires regarding the operating model which highlighted huge levels of dissatisfaction with the model, including the following: service delivery around community and high-visibility policing; an increase in administration burdens; the geographical size of divisions, with particular emphasis on the three county model; insufficient resources; confusion over where responsibilities lie; and the absence of superintendents from districts.
There is increasing frustration over the Government failure to recognise and take decisive and corrective action regarding the operating model. This is particularly evident among the membership of AGSI, who feel, as significant stakeholders within the organisation, that no one is listening and it is the public who will suffer.
At the core of An Garda Síochána is community policing. For many years now, there have been gardaí permanently allocated to this duty. In the recent policing and community safety authority meeting, the numbers allocated to this duty were discussed and currently stand at 697 members, which is a reduction down from 807 in 2015. Community gardaí interact with all their community partners such as businesses and residents while also engaging with an array of community services. They deliver school programmes and embed themselves in their communities to develop and foster solid connections and trust within. To this association, this is what we believe is called interactive community policing. Anecdotally, we have been informed that these members are often the first to be redeployed to undertake other duties, such as concerts and matches, and cover duties where deficiencies arise within regular units.
This association’s membership are committed to the delivery of an excellent service to the communities of Ireland but currently feel that this element of service is being eroded and lost, which is extremely regrettable. The 2024 AGSI survey highlighted that 96% of respondents feel that community policing has not been positively impacted by the introduction of the operating model. This is a sentiment the AGSI believes requires immediate attention.
Roads policing plays a crucial role in influencing driver behaviour and reducing traffic-related deaths and injuries. Roads policing units remain the key enforcement resource. Unfortunately, the number of gardaí assigned to roads policing units has decreased by 41% over the past 15 years, from 1,046 in 2009 to just 620 in 2024. Despite plans by the Garda Commissioner to increase staffing to 700, it continues to languish at approximately 635. This meagre resourcing remains a worrying trend. The life of our recently and sadly departed colleague Garda Kevin Flatley exemplified the dedication and tireless efforts of roads policing unit members, much of which was rightly acknowledged by the Commissioner last week. The increased investment by An Garda Síochána in roads policing, particularly in technology and vehicles, is also welcomed. The aforementioned resourcing issue within the roads policing unit remains the main obstruction to effective and strong enforcement on Irish roads. Other issues raised by our membership include abstraction rates, lack of enhanced training, and motivation and morale.
There is an urgent need for increased investment in roads policing to ensure adequate staffing and resources. A balanced approach that combines robust enforcement with comprehensive education is essential for long-term improvements in road safety. All stakeholders, including the Government, gardaí and the public, must work together to create safer roads for everyone.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. I will invite members to indicate. I again convey our sympathies to the memberships of the organisations here on the tragic death of Garda Kevin Flatley.
One of the notable aspects of both statements is the different numbers in respect of optimum levels of Garda membership, with the GRA stating 17,000 and the AGSI stating 18,000. That is a far cry from where Garda management has set a target, and an even further cry from where we currently are. In the associated documents provided, it is referenced that only 120 new members came out of Templemore in the most recent intake. We asked the Commissioner about that last week. He indicated that it was a problem with processes that had been resolved. I would like the witnesses to comment in respect of the optimum numbers and how we get there under the current training regime. I do not know who would like to answer that.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
Regarding the optimum number, our 17,000 is based on a comparison with our nearest neighbour, which is Scotland, which would reflect our population and demographics in terms of size. Scotland’s police force was more than 17,000 and now it is just under 17,000. The programme for Government in, I think, 2021 predicted we should have 15,000 gardaí by 2021. In the meantime, the population has seen an enormous growth of more than 500,000 people. Even the Commissioner himself in recent years has mentioned his view is 16,000 would now be required for policing. However, we believe that is not even sufficient under the current terms.
On how to fix recruitment, we released a six-point plan related to that. Without doubt, we have to attract members, or potential recruits, be it straight from college or secondary school, or from other forms of employment. The trainee allowance as it stands is completely insufficient. It is about 65% of the minimum wage. It is payable to people for eight months. Within those eight months, there are ten weeks in which a trainee has to go to an external station for deployment for training, where they do not get the accommodation and food they do in the Garda College. They get nothing extra for the expenses incurred and they also may have to incur further travel expenses on top of that.
If we are trying to encourage somebody from employment, where they could be on earnings of €30,000 or €40,000 a year, to a new career in An Garda Síochána, paying them 65% of the minimum wage is not the way to go. Moreover, we have 19 points on our pay scale at the moment. It takes so long for new recruits to come up through the pay chain and get to a point on the scale where we can afford to reside where the majority of members are stationed, which is in major urban areas. We believe that if the Government does not address that as a matter of urgency, we will not see a major change in the number of members applying for the job.
The number of points on the scale has to be reduced. Long-service increments have to be introduced to encourage people to stay in the job longer, if possible. The pensions for members who joined after 2013 are completely inadequate. Any retiring member who joined since 2013 will be lucky to get a pension of €10,000 from the age of 60 until they reach 66, when they are entitled to the old age pension. That is completely inadequate and it has to be addressed. Saying funding has been provided for 1,000 gardaí every year for the next five years is pointless unless we have a plan to address it. We have been absent a plan from the Government for so long. We need it to take it seriously.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
Similar to that, that calculation was based on the population increases. There are certain matrices when we run it through it that say that is the optimal number we should be at with the population increase. It is often missed that the role of An Garda Síochána is a dual role. We are a national policing service but we are also responsible for national security and intelligence. Given the current landscape in that environment, we believe we need to sufficiently resource the national security element within An Garda Síochána. This is crucial. It is a crucial function of the police force in this country.
Last week, we welcomed the Minister for justice's announcement of the establishment of the international co-operation office. This is a recognition of the intensive work that is happening in this area and the resources it requires. We always hear about community policing, which is very important and we will discuss a lot of these issues today, but the national security element of An Garda Síochána should not be forgotten and is crucial as well.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses here this afternoon. I concur with the Chair's comments about Garda Flatley. It was a truly horrific incident and I extend my deepest sympathies to the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors and the membership. I thank the representative organisations for the diligent work they do on behalf of their membership. I know it is very much appreciated by Garda members.
Mr. Slevin mentioned the infamous bicycle incident that happened some time ago. In terms of the new conduct and discipline regulations, if a similar situation was to happen tomorrow, has anything changed in that regard? We discussed the operating model at length last week. I was brutally honest with the Commissioner in that I cannot remember the last time I saw a member of the Garda on foot patrol in either County Monaghan or County Cavan, and I am sure the Chair would concur with me on that. We seem to do a lot of talking about community policing. Everyone recognises the huge importance of visibility and garda presence but, unfortunately, I am not seeing it on the ground. Is that purely down to a lack of membership numbers or what is the story there?
I am very worried by the morale and the feelings of despondence among the membership. That seems to be a lost cause as regard to the representative bodies. From a representative perspective, is that a new development in recent times and has this crept in? I have never seen or witnessed the morale as low among the representative bodies, and indeed the membership, and I wonder what the story is there. Progress on issues as representative bodies seems to be slow. I know they managed to eventually get an agreement on travel and subsistence increases, which were long overdue. Has that happened? Are the new rates for subsistence and travel now in operation? Has that dispute been resolved or have there been delays with that?
Mr. Slevin mentioned pensions and that seems to be a huge issue. Many years ago, when the economy was not functioning as well as it is today, one of the many attractions for people joining the Garda was the security of the pension. That seems to be completely gone now. If either organisation was to give a top three of what needs to be done on retention and recruitment, what would they be?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
On the bicycle question, I do not believe the new conduct, performance and standards of professional behaviour regulations will change that. I still believe an issue like that can happen. In fact, I believe the new regulations reduce our members' protections given that previously an appeal board was set up to mirror the Labour Court, with an independent chairperson, an employee representative and an employer representative. Under these new regulations, on the conduct side of things they have taken away the employer and employee representatives and there is a retired judge as a sole, independent chair with no input from either the management side or the employee side with an understanding of the corporate knowledge aspect.
Unfortunately, with the performance regulations, there is no independent chair for the review process. It is with a deputy commissioner. There is absolutely no oversight at all of the decision of an employer to get rid of an employee. As the Senator is well aware, we do not enjoy the protections of the Labour Court for unfair dismissals. That was the reason behind the setting-up of the appeal board under the old regulations. It mirrored the Labour Court as the best practice within the State. Now, we are exempt from that as well. That causes a great deal of apprehension among our members because they do not believe they will get a fair hearing.
In relation to the OPM community policing, it creates huge divisions that provide flexibility for Garda management. The committee has no doubt heard we have a certain number of Garda stations with a certain number of Garda members attached to those stations but in reality, I am sure everyone here knows there are gardaí in country stations who are never there because they are brought into urban areas to supplement the urban units, which are under-resourced. When they answer calls in the rural areas, it is only a satellite service. They just visit the call, do what needs to be done and get back to the urban area, where the requirement is there more regularly. It breaks that link we used to enjoy with the community where a garda, as I was, was stationed in a country station and dealt with the majority of incidents that happened there. We developed bonds with the community and knew everything that went on in the place and if anything did happen, we were a source of knowledge for any investigation that was ongoing. We could also rely on people within that community to give us knowledge we might not posses ourselves. That link is gone and if the model continues in its current format, we will never get that link back.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
The overarching problem with the operating model is the resource issue. However, there are other issues that can be fixed. The resource issue is a long-term problem, which I will go into later.
We have significant concerns with the three-county model for Cavan, Monaghan and Louth. I know it was discussed at this committee last week. Geographically, the population density is on the east coast. Resources are drawn towards the east coast and the big towns, Drogheda and Dundalk, while Cavan and Monaghan are left alone. An example of this is that prior to the introduction of the operating model, one town in the Cavan-Monaghan division had five sergeants. It now has one.
Similarly, on the west coast, we have Mayo, Roscommon and Longford but such a geographical area is completely un-policeable. It is impossible to manage a division of that size. It stretches from Blacksod, past Belmullet to this side of Granard. Again, we see resources being dragged away from the smaller towns and centralised to provide cover in the main towns. They provide a satellite service out but this is breaking the link with the community. People do not know their local gardaí and gardaí do not know the local people. Traditionally, that is what An Garda Síochána always thrived on.
There are other issues that the operating model is bringing up. It is creating silos within An Garda Síochána. We are seeing the break up of An Garda Síochána as a force into separate entities. The plainclothes division is going one way and the uniform division is going the other way. For a small police force like An Garda Síochána, that is very risky, particularly in the countryside and rural areas where plainclothes gardaí need to support those in uniform and vice versa. We have also seen the removal of superintendents from Garda districts. Historically, this served the State well for the last 100 years. I note the Commissioner's comments to this committee last week where he put forward that one of the benefits of the operating model is that superintendents were freed up from districts and had more of a community engagement role. We would not accept that. Our membership would like to see superintendents back in charge of districts. I know from talking to my colleagues in the superintendent's association that they would like to be back in charge of districts as well. It has not worked. Nobody knows who is in charge. We hear this phrase "community engagement"-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will let you come back again. I will bring in the AGSI first the next time. Just to say, that interaction was eight minutes long, which is what I suggest we set the clock at. We will be stretched in respect of that in terms of allowing others to come back in. Deputy Kelly is next.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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First, my condolences for the loss of the witnesses' colleague, Garda Flatley. It is a poignant day because today is the fifth anniversary of the passing of Garda Horkan and we should remember that. I have raised issues related to a whole range of concerns I have about An Garda Síochána at different levels, as well as about the manner in which gardaí are resourced. I am sure our guests are well aware of those concerns and that they have been brought to their attention by their colleagues. I would like their opinion on a number of issues, the first of which is something I raised last week with the Commissioner. I refer to the holster that Garda Horkan was wearing. We know now, beyond doubt, that there is an issue with these holsters and that they should not have been on issue to An Garda Síochána in the manner in which they were. I would like the witnesses' opinion on that.
The second issue is the storage of guns and ammunition. We found out last week, through this now-famous picture, how guns and ammunition are stored in Garda headquarters, with which all the witnesses are very familiar, I am sure. Defective ammunition was destroyed last week at a cost of €160,000. Would the fact that members from both organisations will have been issued with ammunition that was defective from 2017 until about March 2023 be a big concern? Would the fact that 17,000 live scan fingerprints of criminals have been lost and therefore cannot be cross-checked against other crimes be a concern? Would the fact that certification in the chemical, biological, radioactive and nuclear, CBRN, section of An Garda Síochána, has not happened since 2013 and that protective suits and breathing apparatus are out of date be of concern? Would the fact that we have had the storage of firearms and ammunition in the manner in which we had it and that some of the firearms, in particular, have got back on the street, somehow, be of concern?
Based on what I have said regarding all of those issues, do the witnesses have a concern in relation to how Garda management, gardaí and the force is being resourced? The second issue relates to the OPM. I agree totally with what Mr. Clogher is saying there. I am in the Clare-Tipperary division, in the Nenagh area. It covers east Clare. One could be in Whitegate and be called to Roscrea. It is damn well nuts. It is crazy. I know that towns like Roscrea and Nenagh have not had Garda cars. We have two motorways running through. If there is an accident on the motorway, forget about it. When the representative organisations put this forward - and they have done so on numerous occasions - what is the response they are getting to justify the continuation? I understand that the system for 999 calls is under review. That is also nuts. When the organisations put that forward, what response did they get? Do they believe there is an over-zealousness in relation to disciplinary proceedings? We saw what happened with that garda in Limerick. I know of many other cases which I will not go into here. There is one very famous one coming up soon and it is beyond comprehension how it has gone as far as it has done.
Finally, the chairman of the Policing and Community Safety Authority said recently that the issues being raised by gardaí were "stones in their shoes" problems. I hope I am not misquoting a person that I have time for but what do the witnesses think of a comment like that? The issues they are raising in relation to the OPM, recruitment, pensions, pay and other resource issues are "stones in their shoes" problems.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy should give our guests time to respond.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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My first issue is in relation to resources and the five things I outlined. The second issue relates to the OPM and disciplinary proceedings and the last item is the comment. I am sorry if I went on too long.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will begin with the AGSI but unfortunately, I have to ask Mr. Clogher to be brief.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
In regard to Detective Garda Horkan, I had the privilege to serve with him. I was his supervisor in the Castlerea district for a number of years before he went into the detective branch. I would like to say, on the anniversary of his death, that Colm Horkan was the quintessential police person. He really was. The work he did in Ballaghaderreen town as a uniformed garda is exactly what we are talking about when we refer to community policing. He was all about meeting the public, dealing with the people and knowing his customers. He really was an excellent police man.
In regard to what the Deputy said about resources, of course the AGSI would have a significant issue with defective resources being supplied. We are aware, via media reports, of the issues the Deputy is referring to but we have not received any briefing from the Garda Commissioner or anybody else in relation to those matters. We will make no further comment, other than to say we would have a serious issue with defective resources.
In regard to the operational policing model, we have been very vocal about this for the last four or five years. It is important to point out that at the AGSI conference this year and over the last number of years the dominant issue has been the operating model. It has not been pay or terms and conditions, which is what one would expect at conferences of this nature, but the operating model. Our members are concerned that it is not serving the public well. There is a significant and growing frustration within the membership of the AGSI that we are not being listened to. Nobody is listening. We have been highlighting this for years. We are continuing on with a model that has not worked. In the UK, they have recognised that it has not worked and they have started to reverse out of it.
I will ask my colleague Mr. Bolger to address the 999 calls issue.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly, please, Mr. Bolger.
Mr. Kevin Bolger:
As the Deputy highlighted, there is a review going on into the call handling and incident response policy, which is approximately 12 months old. I do not know whether recent meetings have brought attention to it but it has commenced. I actually made a submission on it this morning, of approximately ten typed pages, outlining the issues that we believe need to be addressed.
Since its introduction there have been some improvements in the technology around it. It is not all negative but we have serious concerns about how calls get to the control centre and their having to go through the Garda station. We are adding more levels of bureaucracy and forms in a situation where, potentially, we should not have to do that. We need to look outside the box at how technology and everything can support that. Fundamentally, our members want to engage with the community. If someone comes into the station, they want to be able to give them the service they require. That is the fundamental principle of our policing ethos, rather than filling out forms and trying to phone a control centre to get the person a call back.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will allow other members in. Then we will allow the GRA to respond and the AGSI to elaborate if needs be. I call Senator Ruane.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Recruitment, operation models, morale and pay are crucial. They will not be the things I talk about but I recognise they are paramount in their impact on other areas.
There are two things I want to look at. One is around the current proposals for a diversion scheme in relation to drugs possession. What are the witnesses' thoughts on a discretionary model to potentially be built into that, whereby guards will have discretion about whether to refer someone to a health assessment? From a human rights perspective, I am against the referral. If it can be enforced, somebody will end up involved in the criminal justice system because they refused treatment. I have an issue with that in general but if that model exists, how do the witnesses feel about the discretionary element?
At the start of the year I read the new human rights policy - I cannot remember the author's name - for the police. There was a quote in it saying the police force or law enforcement is the first defence in human rights. If the police are the first defence in human rights and a discretionary model is introduced whereby anything can feed into a decision about whether someone is arrested for possession of drugs for personal use or is sent for a health assessment, I cannot imagine that adds to morale. First, it is not human rights-led for the person and does not have equity and equality built in. Second, there will be different training levels and understandings in the police force. Some people will have blind biases they are not aware of in relation to drugs use, so the policing will be ad hoc. I imagine that will not help the community aspect. We are saying we are losing the community element and community engagement in policing and then there is going to be an ad hoc approach to people using drugs. Could issues arise from a model involving discretion whereby everybody is not just referred for a health-led approach when it is for personal use?
I am sure that if there are no resource issues and the models are intact, then it is easier to think about different policing models. I was in America last year and spent time with the founders and architects of Group Violence Intervention and the focused deterrence model, which massively reduced youth homicides during the Boston ceasefire project. I explored some of those models. They involve the police and need police involvement. They do call-ins. The police are very engaged with community members but instead of just arriving and arresting or stopping and searching, there is a model whereby they bring in the key actors causing harm in the community and lay out the consequences if they do not cease retaliation, community violence and violence on the streets. Then a negotiation piece opens between those potentially causing the most harm and police and social services. There has to be a community service response too. Are those conversations happening in Garda circles? When we talk of community policing, it is only scratching the surface. It can be much bigger than that in terms of how we engage. There is a model in the States suggesting violence is bad for business, though some people are uncomfortable with it. There are hot spots in Dublin where violence has increased massively. People think it is all drugs related but, even if people are selling drugs, the conflict is usually not drug related. It is often relationships, old family stuff or just stuff kicking off. Police and the community could respond differently to that to reduce violence in communities. Those are my general questions about policing and looking at different models.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Senator. We will open with the GRA. I call Mr. Hodgins.
Mr. Niall Hodgins:
It is very hard to comment because in the whole scheme of things, continuous professional development in the guards would rely on all of us being informed about what the Senator spoke about. There are three ingredients in the policing model the Senator witnessed in the USA which she said led to a reduction in youth homicides and stuff like that. First, it is heavily reliant on resources, which we have spoken about at length. They simply are not there. Second, it would be about interaction with the community, which I suspect would go a long way towards success. Unfortunately, under the operating model - yet again we are back to this - we have an inaccessible, impersonal, centralised decision-making process whereby we have less autonomy locally, as we have spoken about. The superintendent is gone and we have anonymous geographical call centres.
I listened to the committee last week and nearly everybody had an example from their communities of the non-service they got after making a 999 call or a call to the local Garda station, because gardaí have been removed to backfill vacancies in urban centres. What has been taken away from us is the personal-touch policing we once had in this country. It has been replaced with something completely alien to Irish society and to the guards we represent. I used the analogy recently of driving a square peg into a round hole. It is not just the GRA giving out about the operational model. It is each and every association. Because of our ranking structure, the chiefs have been telling senior governance about this. The superintendents are not here today. Both associations appearing before the committee today have been vociferous about this thing that is being driven down our throats and is not working.
The guards I represent have become symbols of what I call managerial opacity. Language has become loose and slippery. We are suffering a truth decay in our negotiations. My colleagues in AGSI alluded to any voices in our association dissenting from the Commissioner not being listened to. There is no participatory governance. The committee will hear the same from all my colleagues lined up beside me. We are not being listened to. We are talking about recruitment and retention but the play on that I use is respair and resipiscence. By "respair", I mean a complete and utter recovery from the state of despair we find ourselves in. That is where we are. By resipiscence, I mean a complete change of direction.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Hodgins. We will come back and allow him further time. My apologies to Deputy Butterly. I skipped across her there.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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That is absolutely fine. I thank the Cathaoirleach.
It is fair to say that there is no fan, other than the Garda Commissioner, of the operating model as it exists. I work closely with the gardaí at all levels in my own area of County Louth. Everything I have heard today has been said to me time and again at county level.
I had a meeting with the Minister, Deputy O’Callaghan, a couple of weeks ago in which I brought forward some issues relating to the county. Mr. Clogher said we are taking the resources from the west and bringing them eastward. Yet, as Mr. Hodgins said, we do not feel that effect in County Louth because we have Drogheda and Dundalk, and a vast area in between, even though we are the wee county, where it is felt that our gardaí are being deployed from Ardee and Dunleer, which are rural areas, out to cover a concert in Dublin. When somebody rings, they are not there.
That also links into the points made about community policing. One issue that is always referred to is that the left does not know what the right is doing at a divisional level. For example, the drug squad in Drogheda may be working very well, but on the ground from a community policing area, it has extended beyond the boundaries of Drogheda with issues like drug intimidation, coercion and trying to draw the youth into dangerous and hazardous situations. We have one division chasing down and trying to secure seizures while the community police are not staffed properly enough, and they are not talking to each other. The silo, as it was referred to, and that knowledge is essential. I agree with all the witnesses. Resources here are sadly lacking.
Talking to the gardaí, what struck me was pensions was always the top topic. That has to be rectified, and that is also something I raised. I was astounded when it was brought to my attention that at entry level, members of An Garda Síochána are applying for HAP and putting themselves on the social housing lists. When this was brought to me, my mind was blown. It was also pointed out that not only are they going on the social housing list because they cannot reasonably afford a home, that is also an obstacle to policing because they do not put themselves forward for overtime since that would put them outside their allowance. It is not just a housing issue or an allowance issue. It is also denying them the possibility of overtime, as well as career progression because they are not putting themselves forward. I refer to the waiting times as well. I would like the witnesses’ thoughts on that.
At District Court level, my understanding is that the role of court presenter, who is generally a sergeant, was brought in to streamline the judicial process and not have dozens of gardaí stuck in a courtroom all day long and instead having them out on the roads. However, if I look in on the courts in Drogheda or Dundalk on any Monday or Wednesday, it is thronged. There are more gardaí sitting in the courtroom than there are accused. I would like the witnesses’ opinion on that. This role was created to avoid this but it does not seem to have worked at all
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
As previously highlighted, the issue of silos is a very real factor within An Garda Síochána. Drugs units and detective units can operate separately. They should be working in conjunction with community police. We keep going back to this. It is very important. The term “community police” is used quite loosely within Garda circles. We much prefer the “interactive community police” term because that reflects a person who is out on the street, meeting the public, talking to young people and maybe involved in youth clubs or starting up the local soccer team. They can talk to the young people and deter them following the wrong path. That is where An Garda Síochána can make a real difference. It is very important that An Garda Síochána talks to each other.
In regard to younger members of An Garda Síochána joining, it is no secret that we have a big problem attracting recruits into An Garda Síochána. Approximately 6,700 people applied for An Garda Síochána in recent months. However, only 3,400 sat the entry exam. We are now at a figure of roughly 2,700 moving on to stage 2 of that competition. We are clearly not going to meet our targets again this year. The problem is attractiveness. We believe a big issue in attracting recruits into An Garda Síochána is social media. Social media is having a detrimental effect on people making the decision to have a career in An Garda Síochána. We see gardaí day in, day out doing their job. They are filmed on social media – the phone in the face scenario. This is then taken out of context and put up on social media, and gardaí’s reputations are destroyed. We saw recently a very bad case of a member of our association being harassed and abused on social media. That member had to seek an injunction and put up the funds herself for it. We believe nothing has been done about the social media issue. We in AGSI are looking for something similar to the work that Nóirín O'Sullivan carried out in respect of politician safety. Basically, politicians had a problem with social media, and gardaí now have a similar problem. If a task force could be developed to look into how we can protect members of An Garda Síochána and deal with this difficult social media issue, and if some sort of structure could be put in place and training for gardaí to handle these awkward situations, that would be a positive.
There is a big problem that younger members cannot afford housing in the areas they are working. There are distance limits as to how far they can work from their homes, and this is causing a problem. Young people cannot afford to buy houses in, for example, the greater Dublin metropolitan region. Some people are travelling an hour and half. Some people live beyond Mullingar or all the way around the city. It is difficult for them to work overtime. Overtime caps have been put on in recent times. The operating model is only being sustained through overtime, and that is happening for the past four or five years. Overtime caps came in in recent weeks. This was brought in under the guise of well-being and the welfare of members. However, overtime caps have been put in but the amount of work has not been removed. The Commissioner alluded to this last week. Gardaí are seriously overworked, which is creating a very stressful environment.
In regard to the District Courts, I cannot speak for every court but sometimes there are hearings and there may be Garda witnesses. We have court presenters in every division and it has removed many of the gardaí, but it would depend on what was on that day in the courts.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will bring the Deputy back in because-----
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask a quick, sharp question?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No, but I will allow the Deputy to make a comment.
Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses believe the next Garda Commissioner should be Irish? Mr. Hodgins said that the essence of the Garda and its culture has been eroded. In light of the current Garda Commissioner, should the next Garda Commissioner be Irish?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will allow them to hold that thought and they can come back in and answer the question later. Members ask me to run a clock and I am just doing as asked.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and giving us their time. I echo the sentiments of my colleagues and mention Detective Garda Horkan and remember Garda Flatley.
I will raise community policing as well. I note some of the words that were used such as "despair" among members of An Garda Síochána and, in particular, the mention of the personal touch of policing. Even though I had a range of other questions I wanted to ask, the debate got me thinking about my experience with An Garda Síochána was when I was a young person. I remember vividly my dad saying that if I was ever lost, I should ask a garda, and if I did not know what time it was, I should ask a garda. I have never said that to my children. That is a stark reminder of how we as a society view An Garda Síochána, the service it provides to the State and the protection it provides to our citizens.
I spoke to many gardaí before I came to this meeting.
I tried a get a sense of what the issues are on the ground, which the organisations are here to represent as well. In particular, what came up consistently was the lack of manpower and womanpower. How we solve that will not be easy. It is a complex issue. It is almost a chicken-and-egg situation. From listening to Garda members, due to lack of numbers, we do not have community police, which is the core. They are the people who can, for example, if Mrs. Maguire has a fall, send a garda who hears that to call in to ask her how she is. A young person might then say, "That is the garda who called on my granny to ask how she was after the fall". It builds up that respect, reputation and feeling of security that An Garda Síochána provides. In an ideal world, I would love to see that return. That might help with recruitment and retention. I know, from listening to gardaí, that the pension issue is a real concern, but not because it is so low. It is a concern because it is so low relative to the expectation of the role. I am a former member of the Defence Forces so I understand the service and the duty to serve the country and its citizens.
In thinking about the members the organisations represent, can it be said there has been a correlation between the reduction in community gardaí and instances of assault on their members?
Ms Tara McManus:
The Deputy hit the nail on the head regarding community policing. We have all talked about the OPM and how it is eroding the very nature of community policing. For years, we prided ourselves on the fact that we were one of the only police forces in the world that was unarmed and can do what we do in communities and interact with people without carrying firearms. We have always prided ourselves on being able to walk down any street and if someone is lucky enough to find a garda on a beat, he or she can speak to that garda. You see people taking pictures of gardaí with their hats, which would not be done in any European city because the police are armed and have a particular image people are not prepared to cross. We always pride ourselves on that.
There is a correlation in respect of assaults. In the past number of weeks, all our phones have hopped with the number of assaults on our gardaí. Three members in the past four weeks have had their legs broken through cars or scooters driving at them. There have been some very serious injuries, in particular, in the DMR west division, which were particularly violent and aggressive. That contact between the local community garda and the community is going and is almost gone. The Deputy talked about morale and how it is affecting people. It is significantly affecting people. We conducted research in late 2023, when we specifically asked about morale. I spoke to 40 people who had resigned. Every single one of them cited morale as an issue and a reason they left. Thirty-nine of the 40 cited mental health issues as another reason. That is another huge issue affecting our members.
We are currently rolling out a mental health first aid course in An Garda Síochána. We are bringing gardaí in and training them to deal with mental health emergencies in the community. The trainers on that course are finding the course participants are seriously suffering with mental health issues. There is a traffic light system where people are graded green, orange or red on their mental health. The trainers say that the majority of members attending courses are verging on yellow to red. The mental health of members of An Garda Síochána is seriously suffering. They are experiencing burnout, stress and exhaustion. They are overworked. There are not enough gardaí to do the work and there is too much work for the gardaí to do. Overtime is fantastic and great, but it comes at a huge price. It has a high personal cost. Family and personal time are lost and, as my colleagues in the AGSI alluded to, commuting is a major issue for our members. They cannot afford to live in the areas they are stationed in, so they are commuting large distances. That is another erosion of the community police because a community garda is no longer living in the district he or she polices, which traditionally they always did.
This is all eroding the idea of community policing. It is making our police service very impersonal. Gardaí are not really interested in finding out about local people. They want to come in, do their 12 hours and leave. That connection with the local community is being lost as a direct result of the lack of resources and the implementation of the OPM.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
I will come in on that as well. While we all accept that the service has to change and modernise at a time of crisis, the one thing we seem to have forgotten is that community policing, and policing as a whole, is a service. It is not a business. Unfortunately, it has morphed into a more business-type model instead of a service to the community. It has to be accepted that some years the service will cost. It could be extravagant. It is very seldom there is a quiet year in respect of costs with An Garda Síochána, but it is a service we provide to the community. The most important ingredient in that service is the workforce. Unfortunately, for the past number of years, the workforce seems to have been forgotten. If we analyse that report released by An Garda Síochána only last week, the majority of it relates to hardware, equipment and progress on IT. There is not a mention of the workforce that has to deliver that service to the public we serve.
There needs to be a change in the way senior Garda management not only interacts but listens to the issues on the ground. When we were here previously, we gave a warning on public order training. In not less than 30 days after that, we had riots in Dublin city, when we struggled to provide a service. Luckily enough, we did. We are not here to give out. We are trying to solve the issues we come across on a daily basis. Unfortunately, morale has been denied, and continues to be denied, as being an issue. An issue cannot be addressed if it is not accepted there is one. That is the biggest problem we have with senior Garda management. The issue we are addressing in respect of morale is that management does not accept the issue exists. It is then very hard in respect of the core issues that relate to that, be they suspension, discipline, no training, and the current attempt to push through policies that are unagreed, which invite conflict with the associations and their members. Another conflict is coming in that regard. The Commissioner has imposed a suspension policy that has not been agreed. In our view, it breaches pay agreements. We are coming to a situation of conflict about that, unnecessarily.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There will probably be some follow-up questions on that.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I thank the two associations and their representatives for coming. I take what has been said about morale very seriously. By the way, I regard the present Commissioner as an Irishman, just in case the record suggests otherwise. I know it was not meant-----
Michael McDowell (Independent)
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I take what has been said about morale very seriously. I see all the ingredients that have been mentioned as accumulating one after another. There is a sense of impunity. Three or four teenagers will go into a shop at night and create havoc. There is no sense that there is likely to be any reaction. Even if it is all on camera, it will not go anywhere. That is also connected, and I would like some reaction on this, to delays in the Irish court system, which are horrific. From the most serious case to the most trivial case, our system delays dealing with them in a way that nobody else does. In the United Kingdom, people are in jail in England while a book of evidence, or its equivalent, would still be being prepared in Ireland. Something must be done about that. When I was Minister for Justice, I tried to ask the DPP why it was that our system, with its generous bail regime, allowed for much greater delay in confronting somebody with an accusation of criminal behaviour and bringing about justice.
It seems to me that the whole idea that people do not face a consequence or, if it is somebody who is socially marginalised, that consequence is 18 months or two years down the line, is a seriously debilitating feature of our system.
Second, I take into account what has been said about social media. It must be very demoralising and off-putting for people to see gardaí derided, threatened and abused in public with impunity. They appear to have to just lap it up. By the way, I believe a more severe view should be taken of abusing a member of the Garda in a threatening manner. I really believe that people who do it should be prosecuted. We cannot have a situation where people can just unload venom and abuse at members of An Garda Síochána which, if it was addressed to any other member of the community, would provoke retaliation. That must be debilitating for members of An Garda Síochána and I accept that.
I also accept the proposition that has been put here that we cannot have both commuting gardaí and community gardaí. They are incompatible. I do not know about the housing problem. That cannot be solved at this committee but it must be a factor that, combined with all of the other factors, is creating problems.
For 20 years now, we have had the failure of the Government to deal with the prison accommodation issue. Today, we read of people who are accused of very serious crimes, and even convicted of them, being released temporarily from prison. These are violent burglars but they cannot be named because they are too young. Why would a garda spend time trying to bring home the prosecution if, at the end of it, the Prison Service says, “There is nothing we can do about it; out you go”?
What I am really saying is that I am listening very carefully to the morale question. There are also some other questions I would like to address. Is there a gender difference when it comes to retirement? Are men or women in the Garda more likely to go early or is there any pattern discernible as to who goes early? On another issue, at the moment, across the public service, there is a good deal of working from home. Obviously, the one thing gardaí cannot do is work from home. That is another factor putting people at a disadvantage compared to other public servants, which adds to the demoralisation factor.
I empathise with what the witnesses are saying. I ask them to answer one question very concisely: if they were the new Commissioner, what would they do to deal with these issues?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We will leave that easy question to the AGSI.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
With regard to the gender issue, no obvious trends were apparent among people leaving An Garda Síochána and it seems to be across the board.
As to what I would do if I were the new Commissioner, the AGSI would look at the incumbent Commissioner and say that we are looking for strong leadership. The morale issue is fed by frustration. Nobody is listening to what our association or membership are saying. This has been going on for years. We get paid lip service when we go to the Department of Justice. We are ignored in the WRC and the Labour Court when we are discussing national pay agreements, and we are put in a separate room. Do we have collective bargaining? No, we do not, and we are not treated as an equal partner. Our association’s view is that we have been ignored for years and years. We want solutions. We are a solutions-focused organisation but nobody will listen. That is a growing frustration.
In October 2023, I was before the previous committee. One of the issues discussed, which was causing a lot of frustration at that time, was subsistence and travel. The rates were amended in 2009 during the time of the financial crisis and were put back to 2002 levels. We are still on those rates, while our colleagues in the Civil Service are on a lot more and are in line with the CPI, which was recently adjusted last February. That has been in the WRC since 2 February last year. We arrived at an agreement outside the WRC and that was sent to Revenue on 15 November 2024, but we still have no progress. It is the minor industrial relations matters that we can make no progress on that leads to a huge level of frustration within An Garda Síochána.
Regarding the courts, this is an historical problem that has been going on for years. An Garda Síochána can only try its best to get an investigation file to the DPP as soon as possible. Like everyone else, we are only servants of the courts and what the courts decide to do is their prerogative after that. We do not have enough resources. We would love to set targets to turn over an investigation file and get it into the DPP in six weeks but, as it stands, with the level of resources, that would be impossible. Huge pressure is put on members over investigation files and we have seen high-profile incidents in the past where the pressure was obvious. It is a difficulty within An Garda Síochána to get those files in.
In addition, if an investigation slips, there is the added dimension of discipline coming at members as well. That is another issue within the force because nobody can make a mistake. It is a big problem that is putting off people and it is leading to the recruitment and retention issue. Initially, it could be said that An Garda Síochána was a vocational-type career choice and there were generations of various families who always joined. However, what we now have is that serving current members of An Garda Síochána are not encouraging, say, their children, family members or the public to join. Likewise, community gardaí were always out in the public arena and people looked up to them. That is how I joined An Garda Síochána I looked up to the community gardaí who trained our soccer or Gaelic team. That is replicated in every town across the country. The community gardaí are not there and people are not being encouraged to join An Garda Síochána.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Clogher. We will have time for a second round of questions. I have a couple of questions arising from our engagement with the Commissioner last week. First, I am seeking clarity in respect of high-speed chases and the pursuit of vehicles. Members of the Garda have privately told me there is an issue within the Garda with pursuits of vehicles, whether it relates to bikes, cars, stolen property or speeding. Last week management essentially said there is no problem at all, so there is a big dichotomy there. I would like an answer to that question.
Do gardaí who are potentially or likely to be in a position to need them in possession of stingers in all parts of the country? If gardaí are well positioned, we know stingers are one of the most effective ways to address a potentially very serious situation.
Regarding Garda vehicles, has the issue of charging points for Garda electric vehicles been resolved across the State? Can electric Garda vehicles be charged at their base stations, as that would be logical? I ask the GRA to comment.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
The first question related to pursuits.
A pursuit policy was issued within An Garda Síochána recently that creates issues in itself. The policy states you cannot engage in a pursuit unless you have received pursuit training but there is actually no form of pursuit training within An Garda Síochána and there does not appear to be any in the design of that course for administration to our drivers. This leaves all our members, be it from the control rooms to the drivers themselves, having to make a snap decision on whether they are going to allow a pursuit to continue, as the controller, and as the driver on whether you are suitable to engage in a pursuit. However, their decisions which are made in a split second will be analysed as slowly as possible if an error is made and that is causing some serious concern for our members because we are responsible for everything we do. Within reason, that is acceptable but you cannot have a situation where gardaí are not empowered to pursue these people. If they do not pursue, the way they will get away is that everyone will just exceed the speed limit in the knowledge that Garda members will not follow. That follows on then to, as the Deputy mention, antisocial behaviour. We see it every day on social media with electric scooters, electric bikes, scramblers and quad bikes. The end does not justify the means, unfortunately, regarding the actions members may have to take to bring such a chase or an incident to conclusion and may result in consequences the member will then be responsible for. Not every vehicle has a stinger in it. Not every traffic roads-policing vehicle has a stinger in it so it is not always feasible or possible that in any of those pursuits - if you are even in a position to deploy a stinger - one will be available to bring that pursuit to a conclusion. What happens then in the majority of cases is that members will have to withdraw from those pursuits, which further emboldens those youths who are involved in that behaviour to go again. It is a situation where there is no doubt An Garda Síochána will have to deploy sizable resources and even maybe train some Garda motorcyclists to use scramblers themselves to try to counteract that antisocial behaviour.
The last question was on the EVs and the chargers. Speaking as an EV owner, we have no superchargers in any Garda station. At best, it is what you see at home, a 7 kW or 22 kW which is completely inadequate. There are EVs that are in use 24-7 and the ideal scenario is that on a change of shift the outgoing car crew would plug in to a supercharger and the vehicle would be close enough to 80% charged by the time the incoming crew would take over but that is not the scenario. The way An Garda Síochána is at the moment, it basically means you nearly need two patrol cars to operate on a day. One will have to be charging while the other one is in use. It is comical. What you see now is EV cars with two gardaí sitting in them while their car is being charged, on duty for up to 40 minutes in a supercharger in some occasions twice on a shift. It is not the best use of resources and it definitely does not show foresight and planning before these are released.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Unless witnesses have anything to either contradict or add substantially to that, we will have a new member in. Apologies, Mr. Bolger.
Mr. Kevin Bolger:
I will give one example of a Garda station I am aware of and I can give the Cathaoirleach the name of it offline if he wishes. A survey was carried out in the division of the various Garda stations. This particular Garda station is a 24-hour station. When they looked at the power coming into the station, with the feasibility to allocate an EV to it, the power going in to the Garda station was insufficient to even run it. There is a bigger problem there infrastructurally-wise with the Garda housing network.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is incredibly worrying. We are on a clock so Deputy Ward has eight minutes.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies, I was stuck in the Chamber for longer than I expected. I have not managed the ability of bilocation yet. I read the GRA's opening statement and a lot of the issue raised related to conduct, discipline and suspension. I will focus on some of these areas. In the past four years, 20 gardaí were charged and convicted of criminal offences. These include some very serious cases of criminality, including domestic violence and sexual assault. There were a number of high-profile cases before the courts in the last year, including the case of a woman falsely imprisoned and sexually assaulted in a Garda station, as well as a case of coercive control. Does the GRA welcome these convictions and has it commented on these at any stage?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
We welcome any prosecution against a member of An Garda Síochána who has committed a criminal offence. Our association would like anybody within our association who has committed an offence to be prosecuted and we would never speak out against that happening. Any time we are asked for a comment, of course we would comment. We would welcome any wrongdoers being brought to justice if that is the case.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Has the GRA commented on any of these cases in the past, unless it was asked? Has it come out and made a comment on them? I think there is an issue. This impacts on public trust. The GRA has rightly been very critical, sometimes with good justification, regarding to the Garda Commissioner in the past yet when a member of An Garda Síochána is involved in criminal activity, the GRA seems to remain quiet. Does Mr. Slevin see the impact that could have on public confidence? Why would the GRA not just come out and make a comment on these? These are cases that have already gone through the courts. There has been a conviction. It is not going to be prejudiced or anything like that. I am asking whether the GRA would have a comment on that after the fact.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Has the GRA been asked for comment and it has provided a comment on being asked?
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Another issue I have, especially in my constituency and right across Dublin, is the issue of drug dealing. The local drug and alcohol task force in my own area, which I was a director on the past, does its best to assist people with addiction. The Garda members do their best to prevent and reduce the amount of drugs that end up on and are sold on our street. However, I return to an incident in Carlow Garda station where €100,000 worth of cannabis went missing. The Garda Síochána Inspectorate raised concerns regarding drugs going missing under Garda control and the need for an urgent review of evidence-storing practices in Garda stations. There were 69 suspensions at the end of April. How many of these current suspensions relate to issues such as confiscated drugs or other material going missing from Garda stations?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
I do not have those figures. I am not too sure if the Deputy's number of suspensions is correct either. I think it is closer to 90. I would not have any details in relation to an ongoing investigation nor would I be in a position to comment on an operational matter. I am sorry. I would not be able to say that.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Slevin aware of other issues, not the specifics, but other instances of controlled substances going missing from Garda stations in the past?
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Would members come forward to the GRA if they felt they were under suspicion, being questioned or anything like that?
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I refer, in particular, to the incident in Carlow Garda station which made the news. I am sure Mr. Slevin is aware of that. Has he any comment on that at all?
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It is was brought to my attention because, as I mentioned at the start, drugs have absolutely ripped apart working class communities, particularly parts of my own community. We have seen families who have been caught up in drug use for generation after generation at this stage. Therefore, when the public see or hear about drugs going missing from a Garda station, it raises concerns around public confidence in An Garda Síochána. I wanted to make that point.
One of the other things touched on in the opening statement was about the redeployment of community gardaí in instances of, usually, sporting events in the likes of Croke Park and at the Ireland matches, which I attend an awful lot myself.
It is good to see the guards on the street and they are welcome. There are other times when guards are redeployed from areas where they are needed. I have a good relationship with the community guards in my area but if there is serious incident in another part of Dublin, they are often redeployed to deal with it. There was a high-profile murder in Dublin a couple of months ago. Members of the Garda from my area were brought to the inner city to show a presence by being on the streets. If I know that is going to happen, you had better believe that the criminals and open drug dealers in my area know it will happen. As soon as there is a serious incident, what happens in my area is that the criminals who are out on the street and who know how the Garda will respond increase their activity tenfold. Do the witnesses have any scope in respect of moving gardaí away from an area that needs them? I know they are dealing with a high-profile incident but they are leaving other communities at a detriment.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
Depending on the type of incident and its severity, a certain amount of police reaction will be required. Unfortunately, due to the lack of resources we have, it will require moving members from different areas on a temporary basis or bringing people in on overtime. It is without doubt that both of those approaches are occurring on a regular basis. As I said, we do not have the resources at the moment. Unfortunately, I cannot see anything changing in that regard in the near future.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Bolger wants to add to that point.
Mr. Kevin Bolger:
I thank the Deputy for his input. We wholeheartedly agree. The Deputy missed it earlier when we spoke to this point. Numbers given to a meeting of the community safety authority last month showed that in 2015, there were approximately 807 dedicated community policing officers. Community policing was their sole function and they were appointed to those positions. The force stood at approximately 12,700 at that time. Currently, it stands at approximately 14,200 and there are roughly 697 members attached to community policing functions. That is a drop of approximately 1.5% while our needs and the population have increased by numerous times.
The Deputy and one of his colleagues have spoken to drugs task forces and local partnerships. That is where community policemen and policewomen are embedded. They are the connection for every group and person. They conduct interactive community policing on the ground. They build networks, get information and start to do all of that. What the Deputy says is true. We are a reactionary organisation when it comes to major incidents and we have to mobilise units. That is just what we do.
As was alluded to at the committee last week, when there is a match or a specific requirement, those Garda members generally are the first ones picked on because they are not filling patrol cars and are not in the response vehicle or whatever else. They are generally the ones who are mobilised first and that is to the detriment of communities. As we laid out, we are strong proponents for interactive community policing. There is a narrative out there in respect of community engagement that gardaí at a barrier on a match day is community policing. It is not. That is community engagement. We fundamentally believe in the gardaí who are in the communities and whose names the youngsters know. They are there for evenings and nights, late-night soccer leagues, Scout meetings or whatever else young people are involved with. Those are the community police officers and we need them.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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We are lucky enough to have one at the late-night soccer leagues in my area.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and apologise for being late. Like Deputy Ward, I was in the Chamber asking questions and waiting for answers. I welcome the effort the witnesses put into their opening statements. They validate some of the points I was making to the Commissioner last week, particularly in respect of the scramblers. I know the witnesses have probably addressed that issue already. I caught their contributions on that issue on the screens as I made my way down to the committee room. I do not want to go over that ground again.
There are a couple of points I want to make. The GRA statement refers to 2019, when the Commissioner reduced the planned and approved intake of 800 recruits to 600. What was the rationale for that decision?
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Slevin referred in his opening statement to "excessive use of discipline". He said that "suspensions have resulted in members being in fear of receiving any form of complaint as there is little trust in the discipline process". Why is that the case? How do we restore trust in the disciplinary process?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
It seems that under the system in place at the moment, we are continuously issuing policies and procedures. Under the new conduct regulations, all of those must be complied with. Any breach comes under the new conduct regulations. That means using discipline as a form of training in the absence of proper training. The Garda Síochána has had no in-person training in the past six or seven years, with the exception of driver training. Members are afraid to make a mistake because it seems that every error they make must be recorded. The recording of that is the issuing of discipline papers against an officer, sometimes for minor issues or events that are not within the control of the officer. Perhaps he or she does not have enough time to attend to the files on his or her screen. Under the new investigation management system, you are generating many jobs for each incident, each of which must be accounted for in a timely manner. Unfortunately, your tour of duty results in many incidents, and any tour of overtime results in more incidents. That is one of the issues we are encountering. People do not want to do overtime anymore because that shift will result in more work, which means more accountability and more opportunity to be disciplined if they make a mistake or fail to do something.
Over the past while, our members have experienced discipline being used as a tool to ensure that everything is done correctly and on time. The suggestion is that it is nobody else's fault but their own. They are being told that if they do not have the time to do it, they must find the time to do it. Our members are now taking home files to do on their own time. There is a fear there that any mistake is punishable. That is, unfortunately, the feeling on the ground.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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In the opening statement, Mr. Slevin said that the operational policing model was introduced in 2019. He went on to say, "This has proved to be an unmitigated disaster and is not fit for purpose." What would he recommend in those circumstances? Would he suggest we go back to the model that was there prior to 2019?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
In terms of the policing of the districts and divisions, yes, I would. In terms of the administration, the operational policing model may have found its home, shall we say, in respect of having larger areas for administration purposes. For the purposes of administering a police service and providing a service to the community, we must go back to having a superintendent in charge of a district and all the forces underneath him or her within a certain area. That provides a better quality of service to the public, which is the goal of An Garda Síochána.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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On recruitment and retention, Mr. Slevin averred that the pension position for new gardaí has been less favourable since 2013. I know that other uniformed bodies, such as Dublin Fire Brigade, have a similar issue in respect of the pension situation. What engagement has there been with the Department or the Department of public expenditure and reform?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
There has been none. We have raised this issue with the Minister. We raised it at a previous sitting of the committee. It used to always be the case that members joining An Garda Síochána viewed it as a career and part of the reason was the pension. Members had to stay for the last ten years to get the benefit of the pension because those last ten years counted for two years each. Due to the nature of the job and the demands of shift work, members were allowed to retire after 30 years instead of 40 years, as applied for others in the public service. The new pension scheme, which came into force in 2013, has become an average scheme whereby what you put in is what you get out. On top of that, when you reach your retirement age, which is 60 years of age or after 30 years of service, you cannot retire because your pension is worth €10,000 or €11,000 and you are unable to access the old age pension until you reach the age of 66.
We have been seeking that a member be able to access the old age pension, that is, the occupational supplementary pension or pre-old age pension, once he or she hits a minimum service of 30 years or reaches 60 years of age.
There is nothing there to make it a career. People now view it as part of a career. There is nothing stopping a member of An Garda Síochána joining, getting the degree from the Garda College, doing a couple of years and then moving on to another form of public service that is nine-to-five with pension benefits and with fewer dangers in the line of work and fewer complaints risk the loss of one’s job. There is just more protection with those jobs. People are not staying in An Garda Síochána like they used to. It is not a career any more, unfortunately.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Slevin spoke about low morale. I put this question to the Garda Commissioner last week. From meeting rank-and-file gardaí right up to inspectors and superintendents in my constituency, I know morale is in fact quite low. To be frank, I was not happy with the Commissioner’s response. Mr. Slevin mentioned denial, low morale and continuing associated issues. Arising from that, how can we improve morale in An Garda Síochána? What would Mr. Slevin recommend the State do to improve morale?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
As it stands, we have a retention issue, on which the Commissioner has an immediate impact as the number one person in charge. There seems to be a continuous attack on members' terms and conditions. For example, there is an intention to try to change the sickness policy in cases where members get certified as having been injured on duty. There is an attempt to reduce the number of times that certification happens. A new suspension policy that has not been agreed has also been imposed. That is again detrimental. The Commissioner can stop members' pay while they are on suspension, which is another breach of pay agreements. There is the non-application of agreed reports and the slow movement of industrial relations. Other small matters include the lack of training and a lack of appreciation for the members on the ground. It feels like any issue raised is not accepted as being an issue.
If I was asked to change these issues, the first thing is that we are short on resources. We need to stop trying to drive members out of the job. We must try to keep the ones we have and improve the conditions in order that the current members have a better outlook and portray to other members of the public that this is a desirable career for them.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
The problem is that An Garda Síochána has not embraced industrial relations well. For a traditionally rank-structured organisation, there has been a difficult introduction of industrial relations into An Garda Síochána. That is significant. We talked about this earlier several times. That is a significant frustration, particularly for the membership of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. It is something that needs to be looked at. We just cannot progress matters.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the delegation to the committee. How seriously is the use of CCTV cameras taken? I have been a member of the joint policing committee in Kerry in the past. Killarney is probably the busiest town in Ireland for a town of its size, if not one of the busiest in Europe. Killarney has been campaigning for years for CCTV. I am aware a CCTV system was in operation in Killorglin but has since broken down. Killorglin had to wait for years as well. My village of Glenbeigh was waiting. I proposed in the past the use of CCTV cameras at strategic locations. We have roaming gangs coming into our county, although we are not all saints in my county either, by the way. CCTV obviously works as a deterrent and helps to bring people before the courts. What kind of budget is there for CCTV systems? That is the bottom line.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
In respect of CCTV, there is a difficulty around the legislation. That is being looked at and I believe there has been progress in that regard. As for getting CCTV into a town, from my experience policing a country town, although it is not the size of Killarney, I am very surprised to hear Killarney does not have CCTV. It works as a serious deterrent and is an effective tool for policing. An Garda Síochána's community section pushes its use if at all possible, in conjunction with the joint policing committees. We are very much in favour of CCTV in every town, if possible.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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What type of budget is available for CCTV systems?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry I am late. A few different committee meetings are on at the same time. Garda numbers in Cork are a particular local issue. From talking to businesses, people and tourists frequenting the city centre, people feel unsafe in the city centre, which is something we had never seen before and which may have been more closely associated with Dublin. I am not sure whether Senator Kelleher has raised this matter. It is something the business association and the chamber of commerce bring up with us quite regularly.
Looking at the Garda numbers from last year, three were allocated to Cork. In comparison with much more significant numbers being sent to places like Dublin, which I can understand, three seems like a low figure. Can the witnesses provide any kind of rationale as to why that would be the case? Is allocation solely dependent on crime statistics or is it dependent on the strength of local Garda representations to the Commissioner? How does that process work when it comes to divvying out the numbers?
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
The Commissioner retains operational responsibility for the strategic outlet of resources. We had a number of high-profile incidents in Dublin in recent years. In every town in Ireland, there is a problem with Garda visibility. There is no Garda visibility. No more so than in Cork, it is important Garda visibility be there, particularly in the city centre. The Commissioner allocates resources. Sometimes, members come to Dublin and are later transferred out of Dublin. That facility exists in order to allow members who are from that region to move back down there. The policing need and demand is looked at, however, and the Commissioner allocates as he sees fit at the time. The problem that exists in Cork exists in every town. It arises out of the operating model. Our association conducted a survey about high-visibility policing and more than 90% said the operating model was not helping in this regard.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
The Commissioner has only a certain amount of resources to play with, unfortunately. We have had a steady stream of members retiring and resigning in recent years and the figures coming into the job are barely matching those figures. As Mr. Clogher has alluded to, a lot of the new probationers go to Dublin, which, in turn, releases other members to transfer down the country. I am not able to comment on where or how they are allocated. That is a matter for the Commissioner. This issue is against the background of limited numbers coming in, which barely match the numbers going out, unfortunately.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy O'Sullivan. He could substitute Cork out of his question for virtually anywhere else in the country.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask another question?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It relates to protests, not necessarily protests against IPAS centres but protests in general, including the ones that have happened outside the walls of Leinster House. Do the witnesses have any idea of the overall budget nationally and whether the resources that are allocated are actually going towards policing large-scale events, be they protests against IPAS centres or the Raise the Roof march coming up, although I do not wish to give advertisement to any protest? Do the witnesses have any idea of the percentage or number of resources devoted to this area?
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
No, I am not au fait with that information, but it is a substantial cost. There were more than 500 protests last year in Dublin. I think I head that figure but I could be corrected on that. There are associated costs. When we send gardaí to protests, there is also a cost on the backfill, that is, those who replace those gardaí in whatever stations they came from, if they were in the public order unit. There is also a cost to train the public order unit and keep its members upskilled. It is a substantial cost but we do not have the figures on it.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding those types of incidents, particularly the ones where there have been significant flare-ups, what is the feedback from gardaí who have been attending them? Do the witnesses have any idea how many gardaí have been injured or assaulted in the course of their duties at those types of events?
Mr. Niall Hodgins:
I was present that day at Parnell Square as an investigator and I could sense what was building. When I returned to my station later on, I listened to the Commissioner's comments, following the riots. He suggested that nobody could have predicted what had happened. What we have found out since is that a number of months prior to the Dublin riots he saw fit to assign an armed Garda detective to each Minister of the Cabinet, because, I think, he was in possession of information that was of concern to him and possibly posed a risk to the safety of officeholders in this country. It goes back to something which I alluded to earlier and that is slippery language and what I call truth decay in respect of the myriad issues that exist for gardaí. They have all been put in a pot, suppressed and not dealt with. Any dissenting voices on what is happening in the organisation as a whole are pretty much not listened to and there is no participatory governance whatsoever between the associations.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As some members have not come in yet, I suggest that we have a three-minute second round for those who want it. I will take members in the original order.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have two questions and it would benefit the witnesses to answer them. Is there a hope in hell of the recruitment and retention crisis being dealt with and the numbers being brought up to what the Garda Commissioner aspires to over the coming years, if everything stands still?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Are the overzealous disciplinary processes now in place contributing to the decision-making of members when they are left in situations relating to certain crimes, such as in the case of pursuits? There may be others. Is the overzealousness of the disciplinary process affecting decision-making? I am not suggesting this in a bad way; it is not a reflection on gardaí but, rather, on the disciplinary process.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
Definitely, without a doubt. It is at the forefront of members' minds when they make a decision to engage in a pursuit or undertake whatever activity in the course of enforcing the law. Gardaí are worried about being videotaped, no matter what they do, and the footage being edited and put on social media. That has an effect on people. They also worry that internal scrutiny will be brought to bear on them for any mistake they make or that any wrong decision they take in a snap second will be analysed over and over again. When Fiosrú investigates an offence, not only does it investigate the issue at hand, it also throws a net across everything. If anything comes to light, the member will face disciplinary proceedings.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
Absolutely. It is only a natural reaction of self preservation, but there has been a serious overzealousness for a number of years. The issue of suspensions has been a very topical one. We find it totally unacceptable that someone is allowed to review their own decision about someone being suspended. It is a contradiction of any sort of modern standards of corporate governance.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Also, the process with GSOC and suspensions has been going on so long that it is absolutely bananas. I have only 45 seconds left and I am trying to be disciplined, Chair. Earlier, I raised the issue of the Policing and Community Safety Authority and the comments of the chairperson. The issues raised by the witnesses are all very serious and I think I and other members of the committee have heard them before. I am not trying to put words in the mouths of the witnesses but the phrase "stones in their shoes" was used to describe the problems of gardaí. Is that a fair reflection of the issues the witnesses have raised?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
It is very hard to comment on that particular phrase because I do not know the context in which it was made by the lady in question. We met the authority and the feedback was quite positive. The members of the authority seemed to be very interested in the issues we raised. We will have to wait and see whether it comes to fruition with any meaningful result. It is hard to comment on it.
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
Likewise, we are due to meet the authority very shortly, next week or the week after. Regarding the new Bord an Gharda Síochána, an opportunity has been missed to allow representatives from the associations to participate as members of the board, as happens in other State organisations. That would give us an opportunity to have input and progress matters in An Garda Síochána.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have three questions. The first is on a topic we have not spoken about yet, namely, road safety. Is the location of speed vans within the remit of An Garda Síochána or is it within the remit of the RSA?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Today, I was told categorically by the RSA that this is completely a matter for An Garda Síochána.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Okay, I will feed that back. Regarding how An Garda Síochána and the State deal with fraud, would it be beneficial to have fraud managed divisionally, rather than nationally? Is it the case that detective units regionally or divisionally are now expected to deal with fraud? This may take manpower away from other investigation of crimes such as assaults, serious robberies or burglaries. Is that the case?
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
There are some divisional detective units around the country. There is a divisional fraud unit in Cork, for instance. The national fraud unit has oversight over some of these bodies. An Garda Síochána is investing in training. There is a course in UCD on fraud. Fraud is an ever-increasing crime and it will have to be dealt with on a divisional basis at some point. Fraud is everywhere, in every district in the country, so we will have to look at that.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That might tie in with what was mentioned about national security, and possibly cybersecurity as well. Is more training coming onstream for gardaí on that?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I agree. I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Defence and National Security so I think that would be very important. My final question has two parts to it. In response to Ms McManus's comments regarding the deterioration at a corporate level of mental health within An Garda Síochána, could that be attributed, in part, to the fact that the service seems to have become much more reactive, as was mentioned, rather than being preventative?
Ms Tara McManus:
Members are finding that they do not really have the autonomy anymore to make decisions. Mr. Slevin spoke about the fear of decision-making. This is certainly contributing to mental health issues. It is a combination of things. A person's mental health is very much to do with sleep, hours worked, exercise and nutrition.
Those three things are very much impacted when someone is doing shift work. Members are finding it very difficult to have downtime. Even when they do have downtime, everybody has mobility devices now and they are expected to answer them on their rest time. Rest time, therefore, is being eaten away. People are struggling to cope with the pressures, the extra burdens and all the administrative tasks put on them. People are really struggling to find downtime and this is really contributing to mental health issues. Some of the people I have spoken to before they left An Garda Síochána told me that if they had not left the force, they would more than likely have committed suicide. That is quite concerning.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Could Ms McManus or the members of her organisation point-----
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I just need a tiny little half-second. Could Ms McManus or the members of her association point to this perhaps being attributable to the operational model we have now?
Ms Tara McManus:
I think it is a combination. The operational model has all these systems but none of them speak to each other. If you do one job on one system, you will have to replicate it in every other Garda system. This means you might do the same job ten times. It places a huge amount of pressure and stress on a young person, especially when they are just out of Templemore and are stationed in the urban areas that are so busy.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms McManus.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Bolger mentioned community gardaí and engagement. I know there is a move from the joint policing committees to these new local community safety partnerships. These are being enacted across the local authorities now but the destination has not been reached in this process. Do the witnesses think a vacuum has now been created between community gardaí and the communities they represent because these local community safety partnerships have not been set up yet?
Mr. Kevin Bolger:
I cannot speak specifically to the operational end of it, but I am aware three such local safety partnerships were set up as pilots, with one in Longford and a couple of others. I would imagine these contacts are still probably happening, be it on an ad hoc or informal basis. I cannot, however, say whether there is a vacuum because that is not in my gift-----
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I am a member of the South Dublin County Council joint policing committee and I can honestly say we have not sat since April 2024, more than a year ago now. To me, there is a vacuum there in this regard. Members of Mr. Bolger's organisation who I meet in regular engagements, at the late-night soccer leagues mentioned that were mentioned and so on, have told me they are also noticing there is a vacuum with the joint policing committees being stood down and these local community safety partnerships not yet having been set up.
Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I absolutely will do so.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the topic of injection centres, which I know is probably a matter for the HSE, do the witnesses or the members of their organisations have any experience in this regard? There is a debate in Cork city now about possibly opening an injection centre in the city centre. I am not giving any opinion here on the positives or negatives of this undertaking. I would be interested, however, in hearing about the Garda experience and what members may have heard back in relation to the injection centre opened at Merchant's Quay here in Dublin. Are the witnesses aware of any concerns or any policing issues around that injection centre?
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
We have not been made aware of any issues or any objections to these injection centres. There is, and has been for the last year or two, a significant problem along the quays and boardwalks here in Dublin in relation to open drug use and this sort of thing. Operation Citizen is in place to counteract that at present, but nothing has been brought to our specific attention in relation to injection centres.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Clogher for that contribution. Before we let the witnesses go, I would like to ask a few questions. Mr. Clogher mentioned that the person who imposes a suspension on a member should not be reviewing that suspension. Will he clarify what he was referring to?
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
Yes. Basically, a suspension policy was in place and now a new interim suspension policy has been enforced since 2 April. In that regard, our membership and our association have a serious objection to a person who suspends someone having the ability to review their own decision every three months. That is not an independent review and it is not in line with any sort of international corporate governance standards to be reviewing your own decision. We totally object to it.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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To follow up on Deputy Ward's question regarding the joint policing committees and the vacuum, I know the north-central area joint policing committee continues to sit despite the legislation not having been implemented.
I have a few questions, and the first concerns the length of time members of An Garda Síochána are suspended for while going through a disciplinary process. It seems to be extraordinary. I have heard of cases that have taken seven or eight years. What in the name of God above takes so long for these cases to be dealt with? Regarding the 999 call system, what have been the witnesses' experiences of it? Has it been positive or negative?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
Regarding the suspension issue, I share the Deputy's concerns. A recent case in Limerick highlights that a member had been suspended for almost seven years before an investigation was finalised in the courts and all charges dismissed. Thankfully, that member is back at work as we speak. This issue, though, is a matter of great concern for the association and our members. We are seasoned and experienced investigators on this side of the table and we cannot understand how an investigation can run on to such timelines or is allowed to run on to such timelines. We have DPP files that have to be prepared and submitted within 42 days once a member of the public has been charged, but we are taking six and seven years to bring our own members before the courts.
It must be remembered that these members are suspended and alienated from their community. There is the idea of there being no smoke without fire. There is a level of suspicion among their colleagues as well. We then have the situation where, in the case I referred to, that member was cleared. He is going back into an environment where there will always be the idea that he has to have done something wrong. There was always an acceptance that an investigation had to be done in a timely manner because of the role and function of a member of An Garda Síochána, but this has not been the scenario for several years. We do not have to trawl through the records of members currently suspended to see that all their cases have been going on for two, three, four and five years, if not longer. It is unacceptable and continues to be unacceptable, unfortunately.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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This is especially the case in a context where we need bodies on the ground.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
The Deputy is correct. We must then ask ourselves about the value to the State and the community. On top of that, suspended members would have been dealing with pending prosecutions that no doubt have been struck out. These prosecutions probably relate to cases that are serious in themselves, such as road traffic safety matters, etc. One has to question whether a member on suspension may have had the prosecution of a drunk driving case dismissed. God forbid there were to be a serious road traffic collision as a result of that person not being prosecuted. This situation is definitely not giving value to the State.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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In relation to drugs and education, drugs are in every corner of the country now, as we all know. They are in every village, town and city, and County Kerry is no different. Regarding primary, secondary and third level education, how often do gardaí visit schools and colleges? I know of individuals whose lives have been ruined and whose families have had to pay off major drug debts. This is a pretty common story today right across the country. I think it must be caught early and education is the most obvious way to go about it, although it will not sort out everything. I would just like to get an idea of how often schools and colleges are visited.
Ms Tara McManus:
That would primarily be done by the community police. It is one of the jobs that are assigned to community police and a specific training programme, known as the schools programme, is in place. There is a schools programme aimed at primary school level, one aimed at secondary school level and another one aimed at third level colleges. We are primarily relying on the community garda to undertake such programmes, but we have just spoken all afternoon about the role of the community garda having been significantly eroded as a result of the operational policing model. Unfortunately, then, these programmes are just not happening as often as they should. They are being undertaken, but probably in the bigger stations in the bigger urban areas. In local districts and local stations, it is not happening simply because community gardaí are practically non-existent, and if they do exist, they do not have time. It is such a pity because it is such an important role..
Kids always come home and talk about how excited they were when the gardaí came into the school but it is just not happening as often as it should.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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In an ideal world they should be visiting every school, maybe even once a year.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To follow up on something, I am concerned around some of the experiences outlined, particularly regarding major events where community gardaí are taken out of circulation. Have there been conversations between Garda management and either association about Ireland's holding of the EU Presidency next year for six months? We know this will involve a number of high-profile events. Has there been discussion of the implications of this, whether leave would be cancelled or gardaí taken out of regional divisions and brought into Dublin or other places where meetings will be taking place?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
Consultation has not yet begun on that. There are requests for a meeting to begin the process. Our association has outstanding issues, unfortunately, which will affect our participation in those discussions going forward. Our conference is taking decisions on the imposition of that unagreed suspension policy, the attempts to change the sickness policy in respect of our members' terms and conditions, as well as the outstanding subsistence and travel issue which has been ongoing within the organisation for the last eight years and has yet to be resolved. Unfortunately, our conference has directed us not to partake in anything to do with the EU Presidency until those issues have been sorted.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the members or the organisation?
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
Our members have instructed our association not to partake in any discussions in relation to the EU Presidency until those issues have been sorted out. They have been ongoing for so long. In respect of subsistence and travel and the other two matters, there is an attempt to force through policies that deteriorate and further dilute our members' terms and conditions. They have had enough, unfortunately.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What does that mean in real terms for operation of events if Mr. Slevin's organisation is not engaging? Will that have an operational impact if its members are requested or instructed to be in certain places at certain times during the Presidency?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there potential that there would be some form or action?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My final question is in respect of the divisional and operational model. Everybody is agreed that the divisional model, particularly the three county structure, is nonsensical. The Commissioner last week did not appear dyed in the wool in the about it, or at least seemed open to the prospect that it might change. I would urge that this would happen quickly. On the operational model itself, I sense a distinction between the two organisations. The GRA has articulated a desire to return to the model that was previously in place. Correct me if I am wrong. Reading the AGSI's opening statement and submissions, I am getting a sense that it supports the specialisation aspect and that it is more an issue of the numbers not being there to sustain the model. That would lead me to believe that if we were to reach some of the numbers that have been mentioned, the AGSI would feel there is some scope for the current operational model to work. Am I correct in either or neither of those assumptions I am making about both organisations?
Mr. Ronan Clogher:
No, we have significant issues with the operating model and how it is actually working. It does not work, particular around the superintendents not being in charge of districts. Substantial change is needed. The AGSI is saying that we should take the good parts that are working, put them together and develop a new model of policing. The AGSI looks at the operating model and we have been taking about this for four years now. Nobody is listening; I think I said that three times here today. An Garda Síochána did a survey in May 2024 and we do not have the results of it. We got a short briefing on it, but it is extremely negative. The question arises as to what actions we are taking out of the findings of that survey last May. We have been going on with this. For any company or business in the world, if all the staff were saying something was not working, every other business would listen.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will allow Senator Rabbitte in as we only a few minutes left.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Chair. I was going to come in on that exact point. I come from Portumna on the Shannon, not too far from Deputy Kelly at all. There are 40,000 people where I am based in Portumna, but I am depending on Gort Garda station to look after me. There are two nights during the week, I will not say which two, when there might not be three people on duty. If there is an incident in Gort and an incident in Portumna, the lads in Tipperary are not coming across the bridge, that is for certain, and Gort is under pressure. That model is not working for the vulnerable or for anybody across east or south-east Galway. I want to back up what the witnesses are saying but that is the piece I came in here to say. I raised it last week as well in respect of where I live on the bridge in Portumna. Then there are the two Garda cars and if we have only the few out - I do not need to say it. If I am experiencing it in east Galway, that is the experience right across the country. It is okay on the bright evenings but when the nights are dark and there is a particular element, people feel unsafe. That model does not support the community. That was my contribution but it was answered before I asked it.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a good opportunity to allow the GRA in again on a final word.
Mr. Ronan Slevin:
I just want to let the Senator know she is on the wrong side of the bridge. The home of hurling is just across it. Yes, it goes to prove our point and what both associations have been saying here. There may have been different views on the operating and policing model as it stands. The view of the Garda Representative Association is that it is not delivering a police service to members of the public on the ground. It is not delivering the service they are used to or deserve to get. It is without doubt that resources are being moved from station to station to provide cover for ever greater areas, unfortunately. While we welcome specialisation within the divisions, unfortunately there is only one place they are coming from, namely, the front line. Resources coming out from Templemore every three months seem to be just barely leading to a climb in the figures but they are only replacing people being put into specialised units, being promoted, retiring or resigning. I do not believe we will see any significant change in the numbers in An Garda Síochána in the next five to ten years. I definitely do not see us achieving more than 15,000 under the current model. We have an undertaking from the Government for 1,000 new recruits every year for the next five years. That is against a backdrop of close to 400 or 500 people leaving the organisation in the same timeframe. We just do not see where the numbers are going to come from.
This is a Government issue. I understand there is a restraint in relation to the public pay purse. Our proposal does not have to do with increasing the pay of members. It is definitely addressing the training allowance, which is completely inadequate. It should be close to €35,000. There are 19 points on the pay scale within An Garda Síochána. It is too long before you come up to a reasonable living wage. We want the Government to reduce those points on the scale to 12 or 13, bring in a long service increment to keep members in the job longer, and address the pension issue for the post-2013 members. It is a combination of those issues.
If we do not address that, this crisis will not be solved. Rather, it will get worse - without a doubt.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We must wrap up. I thank the representatives from the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors for a very informative and helpful set of contributions to us as a committee. We ended on an important point. This committee has a view of the entire criminal justice system from start to finish, but there is not a single item that we discuss that does not reference the need for an increase in the numbers of gardaí and an increase, in particular, in the number of gardaí within and seen within our communities. Over the past two weeks, we have had something almost like parallel universes in terms of what Garda management is saying is the reality versus what the representatives of the front-line members of An Garda Síochána are saying. In tandem, we as elected representatives have the realities we hear every day from the people we represent. This committee will have a job of work in terms of compiling a report as a result of hearings last week and this week, with a set of recommendations. I think those recommendations, without pre-empting the committee, will be forceful in informing Government of what needs to happen and the fact that substantive and real changes are required. We all hope that the next number of months will see a sea change in how all of these things are addressed. I have a fear for the prediction of both organisations that, to paraphrase it, under the current trajectory, we will not reach the recruitment targets that have been set. That is an incredibly worrying matter of fact, as it has been conveyed to us.
I thank all our guests. I propose we publish the opening statements from the meeting today on the committee’s website. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will move into private session.