Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials to our first proper meeting of the committee. For anyone attending remotely, I ask that they mute their microphone when not contributing so we do not pick up background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As they are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of any of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses, or an official of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The agenda for today's meeting of the committee is an engagement with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy James Lawless, on his policy priorities. As I said, the Minister is welcome and we look forward to working constructively with him over the next couple of years. He has ten minutes to read his opening statement and we will then proceed to the question and answer session.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is a pleasure to be with the committee today and I look forward to working with the members. I congratulate the Cathaoirleach on her appointment as chair of this very important committee and all the members who have been appointed to serve on it. I spent many years in your chair until quite recently, a Chathaoirligh, so I know just how important these engagements are. Early engagement with the Minister in the area is, hopefully, beneficial to all of us. I can understand more of the issues of interest to the members and the committee can understand more of the direction I am hoping to set. I welcome the engagement and thank the committee for the invitation.

In 1962, Lemass remarked that it is on the growth and improvement of our education system that the foundations of our future prosperity must be firmly based. We have had a track record in this nation for the last 60 years or more, starting with Lemass, Whitaker and O’Malley, whereby investment in education, research and innovation has propelled our industrial policy, economic model and subsequent prosperity. This raises all boats, including the public goods that we support and the resources that are created from that. That is very much the vein I intend to continue in this Ministry by continuing that investment in education, research and development as an economic enabler, as well as it being a public good.

Since that time, the teaching and learning, skills, research and innovation of our education system have set in motion the huge progress that we have made, both economically and socially. That has allowed us to propel forward but also, at times, to rebound and adapt following economic shocks and disruptions. No less than now, we never know what the future will hold. We are always susceptible to geopolitical tides and headwinds, which can be positive or negative. That is part of the challenge of keeping a ship on the high seas but if the ship is resourced suitably, is technologically guided and has been invested in, it sets it up for plain sailing. That is very much the direction I want to set.

In my early months at the Ministry, I have set out four clear objectives that I wish to strive for and, to an extent, they frame the work that I intend to do in conjunction with my wider team. I thank the officials who are with me today for all of their superb efforts and knowledge of the sector. The priorities I have identified are as follows: first, to foster research and innovation as an economic enabler; second, to provide high quality and highly accessible higher education; third, to expand pathways to skills, reskilling, upskilling and cross-skilling, including apprenticeships, further education and many other new and emerging pathways, through the skills ecosystem to match evolving workforce needs and prepare us for the skills of the future as well as today; and fourth, to promote curiosity and the pursuit of knowledge as a public good. Each of those is as important as the others. Collectively, they set out the vision that I hope to have the opportunity to implement over the next couple of years, working with the committee. They straddle both the economic necessity and the imperative of this brief. Along with the public good, curiosity and the pursuit of knowledge are always worth exploring in their own right because we do not know where they are going to lead. Education is beneficial in its own right, even independent of the economic dividend, and I believe it pays in spades.

Before I get into the detail, I want to reflect on the work programme that has already been achieved in the five months since I have taken on this role. With regard to the National Training Fund, we have secured a record level of investment across higher education. In April of this year, I obtained Government approval to amend the National Training Fund Act, a key step towards unlocking the potential of the funding package of €1.5 billion that exists in the National Training Fund. That is a package for the higher and further education sectors and will provide funding over a six-year period from 2025 to 2030. My officials are drafting the heads of Bill, which I hope to have approved by the Cabinet shortly, and I will then progress to bring it before the Dáil for debate.

That will be key to unlocking that really potent fund, which is long awaited and badly needed. I intend to bring that through at the earliest opportunity and I have already secured Cabinet approval to do so.

Looking at the research and innovation system, in March, I announced investment into our research infrastructure of €17.7 million. Excellent research knows no borders and is often achieved through strong international collaboration working with colleagues at home, abroad and further afield. In early May, I signed the associate membership agreement with CERN, the European Organisation for Nuclear Research, in Geneva. At 4 p.m. today, I will bring a motion before the Dáil to complete the ratification process. I have visited Geneva twice in the five months since I was appointed Minister and I was very proud to sign the membership agreement on behalf of Ireland just a few weeks ago. Pending ratification by the Dáil, the process will be completed this afternoon.

We need to keep investing in our research talent, research collaborations and research funding. Work continues on the technological university professorships, which will boost research capacity within our TUs and form part of the underlying infrastructure behind the technological universities to enable them to reach their full potential. That is a commitment in the programme for Government and I am very determined to implement it at the soonest opportunity.

I want to encourage early career researchers, from students to early post-doctoral researchers, by supporting them and offering them opportunities to experience the world of research. Initiatives such as Global Citizens 2030 and the new talent and innovation attachés in Boston and San Francisco are levers we are using to position Ireland as a world-leading destination for global research talent. My team has already taken up residence in Boston and San Francisco and will serve as ambassadors and agents to work between the Irish and American ecosystems to promote research and innovation, technology and collaboration. The intention is to despatch attachés to other key countries in the months ahead.

During this current time of economic uncertainty, research and innovation are particularly important to safeguard our competitiveness. I recently announced a package of €63.8 million to accelerate the commercialisation of research across Ireland to plug the current innovation gaps. I believe in fundamental research and curiosity but I also believe in accelerating knowledge transfer into industry and enterprise so that we can move into the product development space. Moving into a competitive space is absolutely key. That is also written large in the likes of the Draghi report and the Letta report and in almost every study that has been done recently on competitiveness. Research, development and innovation is fundamental to that offering.

On apprenticeships, lifelong learning and skills, the higher education system provides essential skills across areas of high skill demand. We have already seen significant expansion of medicine and healthcare places, with over 1,000 additional places being created since 2022. Just yesterday, Cabinet approved a proposal to add an extra 461 places across physiotherapy, occupational therapy, radiography, dietetics and many more healthcare and therapy-based disciplines. The mission for all of the Government - and I hope across all of the Oireachtas - is to tackle the disability challenge and to make sure that services are provided, including by professional service providers. We must increase our capacity. I thank my Cabinet colleagues for approving my proposal to do just that yesterday.

We must also expand our construction workforce to meet our housing, climate, and infrastructure targets. On Monday, I broke ground at the national demonstration park at Mount Lucas in Offaly. This will become a hub or centre of excellence for modern methods of construction and will be pivotal to how we do construction in the new world, using efficient modern methods to achieve more with less.

I am also excited to see the expansion of new and flexible education pathways. This includes Springboard+, microcredentials, tertiary programmes, the expansion of the student fees scheme to part-time students and much more. Curiosity drives each one of us to learn new skills and discover new knowledge. It is our responsibility to nurture everyone’s curiosity no matter their background or abilities and to support everyone in their lifelong learning journeys. We continue to expand access. Everybody has ability. We just have different types of ability. It is latent in all of us, across the population. The job of this Ministry is to tap, unlock and harness that talent and to find the right pathway to skills progression for each individual learner or student.

In April of this year, I engaged with students and stakeholders, including access officers, student union representatives and people from disadvantaged backgrounds, to discuss the cost of education. We met in Croke Park. We had a working day to consider all of the different parameters. I will publish an options paper informed by this consultation this summer.

Education should be for everyone, and there should not be barriers in anyone's way to successfully access and succeed in their education journey. I am particularly proud of the programme for access to higher education, PATH, 4, which supports students with intellectual disabilities and universal design measures in accessing higher education. That has been very successfully adopted in the system already. I have visited the Trinity College centre for learners with intellectual disabilities, Carrigaline, the Field of Dreams in Cork and other centres. I am really proud to work with those young and not-so-young people with intellectual disabilities and see the learning potential they have when they are given that opportunity. I brought a memo before Cabinet in recent weeks to support more of that work and to recognise and value it. These pathways are about unlocking our people's full potential. When everyone can succeed, we all succeed.

Affordable student accommodation is another challenge I am working on. I am aware it is a big barrier for students attending educational facilities across the country. My Department is currently working on developing a new student accommodation strategy focusing on viability and affordability. That will be published later this year. I intend to bring the first phase of that, a design module, before Cabinet for approval in the coming weeks. That will then be published and consultations will ensue. Some consultations have already taken place. It is a really important step because, if students cannot access learning close to home or cannot have a base close to their place of students, it presents them with another challenge. Having to commute long distances impedes students' time at college and their experience. That is very much a priority. Some €100 million has been sourced from the national development plan to enable the progression of a number of student accommodation developments in the immediate term. The first of these, which comprises 116 beds at Maynooth University, will be ready for the 2025-2026 academic year. There are also projects going to the boards of DCU and UCD in the near future. The goal is to activate sites that are already primed for student accommodation with a view to the longer-term strategy to bring more and more on-stream in the coming months and years.

These are only some of this year’s achievements. They are a testament to the solid foundation that we have in place. We can and will continue to aim higher and do more. Across the board, from the physicist considering the behaviour of atomic particles, perhaps in CERN, to the engineer questioning why things work the way they do, pulling levers, and the archivist studying a century-old census and wondering about the socioeconomics of the time, curiosity is the spark that ignites breakthroughs and innovation and propels us to ask why and what is next. That is very important.

As a Minister, I have a responsibility to nurture this curiosity. It stimulates innovation and economic growth but it also advances human potential. I am placing a particular emphasis on our research performance in the term ahead. This is critical if we are to maintain and enhance our global competitiveness, drive innovation and create sustainable jobs. I will prioritise research that generates high-value jobs in emerging sectors such as AI, life sciences, data sciences and renewable energy.

I was in a meeting before I came to the committee and I heard quite a challenging story. Some graduates coming out of software engineering courses are finding that their skill sets are almost antiquated before they even graduate. The pace of technology, AI and change has been so great that, from the start of a course to its end, the landscape changes. That exemplifies why we must teach our students how to think. We do not teach them the knowledge. The old rote learning is long gone. However, even with the talk and talk, we need to imbue analytical skills because knowledge is at our fingertips in our smartphones and everywhere else, enhanced through digital infrastructure, data centres and so on. We must teach our students analytical skills. That cuts across every discipline from STEM to the humanities and everything else. It is very important.

Skills are the realisation of that innovation. We need more skilled graduates to meet the demands of our economy and society, particularly in priority sectors. We need green skills, digital skills and skills in the areas of healthcare, disabilities and construction. The tertiary education sector must be agile, flexible and responsive to respond quickly to changing labour market demands and to empower people transitioning into new sectors. I want to see a higher education system that supports learners in making even more ambitious choices, a system that supports them in reskilling and upskilling throughout their life and a further expansion of flexible and inclusive routes through further and higher education. I spoke about high-quality and highly accessible further and higher education. I want to see more targeted funding for under-represented groups, including students with disabilities, mature learners, part-time students and those from disadvantaged backgrounds. It is a simple enough statement of belief that those who need more should receive more support. There is a corollary to that, which is that those who need less may be less in need of support. That is a simple, fair and progressive mantra. It is how the system has always worked. I am currently engaged in planning to secure further funding under the NDP. There are many more plans we will embark on together. I welcome the discussion. To a certain extent, I have set the scene with those opening remarks.

I look forward to hearing from committee members and taking questions.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We move to the speaking rota that was agreed at our previous meeting. Our first speaker is Deputy Connolly. He has six minutes.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Déanaim comhghairdeas leis an Aire nua. Guím gach rath air ina ról nua atá aige. I compliment him on the start he has made. We can see that he is ambitious for the sector already. The initial investments he has made seem to be aimed at those areas of need within the sector. That shows that he has a level of insight suited to the role. I wish him luck.

We all share the four priorities that the Minister outlined and I am glad that he said there is no higher hierarchy among them. Regarding the last priority that was mentioned under the heading, developing curiosity and promoting the pursuit of knowledge, if we can motivate students to that point the rest will easily follow. As I previously mentioned when we had a debate on statements on third level education in the Dáil, the education system should be all about people enhancing themselves to enhance the community. It should be value-led. That is crucial. If we can motivate young people for that pursuit of knowledge and curiosity, we will go a long way towards meeting the other objectives that the Minister outlined.

I have some direct questions about the content of the Minister's contribution. He noted the commercialisation of research and increased resources, including a package of €63.8 billion to accelerate commercialisation of research across Ireland. I recognise the need for a connection between our third level institutions and industry. Can we get more details on how that package will be spent and the general parameters that the Minister has set around that whole area? There is some concern, which I also expressed at our first committee meeting. Would those who founded our third level institutions in the mid-19th century recognise them today as purely educational institutions or is there a corporatism around them that they might not recognise? I would like more details on the package to accelerate commercialisation.

I welcome the expansion of the places for healthcare that the Minister has initiated. More than 5,000 work permits were approved last year by the State for people to come here and practise as nurses. That clearly highlights that we have a shortfall in the training of nurses within our institutions. That is just one area. The Minister previously discussed with me the increase in the number of occupational therapists and physiotherapy places in Galway this year. That is welcome because all of us see the children's disability network teams, CDNTs, throughout the country having vacancies and shortages of practitioners. We need to accelerate the development of further practitioners in those areas at the earliest opportunity.

I welcome the Minister's emphasis on trying to take away barriers to the participation of students and the expansion in the number of students who can participate at third level. On the funding for PATH 4, I attended the European Access Network annual conference earlier this week in Galway. There were some concerns that the funding for PATH 4 ends in 2026. We are not certain of the funding beyond that point. It would be welcome to get clarity on that. It is a crucial area. We need to broaden and widen the third level education option to as many students as possible and try to overcome the disadvantages that some have in accessing that.

I welcome the review of the national strategy on apprenticeships and that we are going to start a new plan. There is one aspect of it that may not have been as successful as we would have liked. That is the whole area of our public sector encouraging apprenticeships. When I was a member of the local authority in Galway, I tried to pursue that the local authority would undertake the action that was outlined in the initial strategy. I am not sure that it did. Overall, it seems to have been successful with the number of apprenticeships going up. Our State bodies, however, should be more proactive in recruiting apprentices, whether that is our local authorities, our health sector or other such public bodies. I would like a comment on the review of the existing strategy.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has had four minutes. The Minister has two minutes to respond.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies. That is okay.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for his comments and recently hosting me in Galway recently. On further course provision and the national imperative, I welcome the University of Galway's new pharmacy programme that we launched that day. There is also a rural GP programme that starts next year, which is critical. Having seen a paucity of rural GPs in my constituency, I welcome the initiative shown by the university in providing those new courses. Too often we see high points-type courses being oversubscribed and students being disappointed. Often that is ironic because they are courses that we need more graduates coming from. The answer is "Yes", we can look at reform of the CAO and we will do that in due course. However, more places solve many of those issues. I hope to increase capacity for those new courses. We have a new dentistry course, two further veterinary courses and medical courses coming onstream. There are 461 new disability places with the majority starting this September. This will be repeated for future years with further capacity coming onstream as we go through.

I will try to cover as many of the Deputy's questions as I can. On proximity to industry, the pursuit of knowledge and curiosity is something to be supported, fostered and championed, regardless of economic impact. However, economic impact is highly important as well. The technological universities are designed largely to be close to the regions and close to industry and, in many cases, to work in partnership and synergy with the local industrial sector or particular skill sets that might be in certain catchments.

I have been impressed by the PATH 4 programme as I have visited a few of the centres around the country. I will commit to continuing to support that funding. I note the Deputy's concern on that. It is well founded. It is such an important programme. I would like to do more on it. I am keen to maintain that.

We have had huge success on apprenticeships. We have 77 different offerings across apprenticeship programmes now. They are divided loosely into craft apprenticeships and consortia apprenticeships. These are loosely called traditional apprenticeships and less traditional ones. The intention is to continue to roll those out, support them and include more choices. The apprenticeship action plan is being reviewed at the moment. The new action plan for 2025 to 2030 will be launched later this year. I am very much on the same page on that.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The second speaker is Senator Ryan. We are trying to make sure that everybody gets in to speak because we have shorter meeting slots than we had in the previous Dáil. The full slot is six minutes. I do not want to interrupt when members are in full swing. I ask that they keep their contributions short.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Will we have an opportunity to put a second question to the Minister later?

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Potentially if we all keep to our times.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his time. I welcome his statement and appreciate that he has given us the time to have this discussion with him and to gain a sense of his broad goals for his term in office. They are wonderful high-level goals and I not disagree with any of them. I particularly welcome his approach to research and innovation and his recognition of the critical importance that this has on our economic development. He is linking this with the Mario Draghi report, which is exactly where we need to be on that space, while recognising our universities and research as a key economic driver for us.

Like the Minister, I have been consulting with students, families, constituents in County Limerick and councillors throughout the country to get a sense of the broad themes that are coming back in this area. I broadly group them into concerns from a learner perspective and from an institutional perspective. I will start with the learner perspective by recognising that it is our students who we should always put first in terms of our higher education institutions. I recognise that the Minister had consultation with students earlier this year in April and that is going to feed into his options paper for the summer. The key issue that he touched on is student accommodation. Whether it was in Sligo, Athlone, Limerick, Tralee or Cork, there was a recognition of a shortage of suitable quality and affordable accommodation for our students. From a councillor perspective, there was confusion around where the local authority's role intersects with the institute's role in this space. I ask the Minister to tell us a little more about the student accommodation strategy that he is planning on bringing forward.

Specifically, will it just be the education institution tasked with bringing forward that accommodation or is there a role for our local authorities or other agencies in delivering that accommodation?

From a learner perspective, there are affordability issues. In addition to a general increase in the cost of living and challenges around rent, the lack of affordable accommodation and the cost of commuting, there are issues with regard to registration fees specifically. I know they are due to change this year. I wish to get the Minister’s thoughts on them, although I appreciate they are not finalised as of yet.

While there is great appreciation for the SUSI grant from those who are able to avail of it, there are some frustrations around the operation and application of it. A number of people have raised queries with me about how we can improve the operation of the SUSI grant, particularly the application process itself. Could it be linked with Revenue in order to make it less onerous on the various family members to gather their information for inputting into the application? I will leave those question with the Minister for now.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir. I also thank her for coming to see me in Limerick where we had a productive day across multiple sites, both across the education and training board and the university. The successful roll-out of the biopharma course took place on that day.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was wonderful.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is really good to see. It is exactly the kind of industry collaboration that is central, particularly in that area where there is great strength from some of those companies represented on that day.

There are a couple of points to address. With regard to student accommodation fees, a multipronged approach is being taken. That means we are doing a number of different things in parallel. There is the short-term activations approach, which takes sites. There was a call-out last year to the colleges to find out which colleges had lands ready to go and sites that could be progressed quickly through permission to design to get them up and running. Maynooth University was the first out of the traps. A total of 116 beds are coming on stream, ideally for the coming academic year. That is the plan. As I mentioned, DCU and UCD have aspirations towards that. In fact, they are more than aspirations. Proposals will be going to their governing authorities in the coming weeks, although they have autonomy to decide. That is the first wave of this approach.

A standardised design is in progress, which I hope to bring forward for Cabinet approval in the next few weeks. That will create a standard template, or set of templates, in the same way as school buildings are designed now. If one looks at new school buildings, they are variations on a theme. In the past, even with schools, every different board of management had a different architect and every site had its own approach. What has happened now is that there is standardisation. It is almost like an architectural bible or code. People can choose a template which matches their particular site. The goal is to reduce construction costs to achieve economies of scale. Procurement and design costs are all reduced. This will lead to more student accommodation coming into the wider system in a quicker and more cost-effective manner.

In respect of the local authorities and their role in this regard, it is envisaged that some of the higher education institutions and colleges will build their own accommodation, effectively. The private sector is also coming forward with proposals. If local authorities wish to embark on bidding programmes, that is something we can discuss with them. I am not sure that is envisaged at the moment, however. Local authorities will grant planning permission. They will be informed by the section 28 guidelines. As part of the architectural design standard I mentioned, a set of guidelines will be produced, which will become a reference point for local authorities. If an application comes in from the college, the private sector or someone else, they can cross-reference that application against the section 28 guidelines. Those guidelines will guide the revision.

I will address the cost of education briefly because I am watching the clock and I will be in trouble with the Chair. I might address it in more detail as we go on. There are many levers in this regard, from the cost of books, transport and accommodation to fees, registration fees and the cost of living. There are multiple things involved. It is not quite a one-size-fits-all situation. I have a number of ideas in this regard, which we might get into later in the session.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I was delighted to have him at Atlantic Technological University, ATU, in Sligo a few months ago. I wish him every success. We are very proud of ATU Sligo. It is the first university north of the Dublin-Galway line. My role was ensuring that St. Angela’s College would be included in ATU. It has been a long pathway. Some of the Minister’s officials will understand the frustrations. We are also very proud of the strides that have been made.

An area I am a little concerned about is that the Ursuline College gifted St. Angela’s College to the State on the promise that there would be teaching and nursing practice there. I am little concerned that the ATU is beginning to move everything into the campus. These things need to be teased out. While I do not wish to get in the way of what people will determine, commitments were made by the previous Minister, who subsequently became Taoiseach, namely, the current Tánaiste, Deputy Harris. While I understand circumstances change, we need to acknowledge that those commitments were made. I understand the Minister’s officials have a difficult job, but it is something we need to maybe be cognisant of. I am satisfied with the Minister’s four priorities, particularly the priorities to foster research and innovation and to expand pathways to skills, reskilling and apprenticeships that match Ireland’s evolving workforce. This is commendable because we may have lost a bit of ground over a number of years in this regard. The one thing I found when I was Minister of State was that it was really great to see all the great joy apprenticeships brought. I might not be a great academic, but I certainly believe in apprenticeships. It is nice to see people doing something we need.

I am also concerned about the lack of student accommodation. It can be seen in the bigger universities. In ATU Sligo, work is ongoing with the local authority. We need to ramp these things up. I do not know whether the various Departments have the skills to ramp these things up, however. If we can provide student accommodation of approximately 500 to 600 beds in Sligo, for example, as I am the TD for Sligo, Leitrim and south Donegal, it will take the pressure off of housing. We need a joined-up approach to how we deliver student accommodation as quickly as possible. I will be a strong voice for the ATU in Sligo, which covers anything north of the Dublin-Galway line. I wish to let the Minister know that I would only be too happy to help in anyway I can.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Feighan. I agree with him that St. Angela’s College is a wonderful site. I enjoyed my visit to it. I was really impressed at its activities. It is a wonderful site with its vista of the lakes and the actual point in the landscape it enjoys. Its provision is also wonderful. Councillor Edel McSharry, whom the Deputy knows from other fields, heads up the nursing team there. Certainly, we had a good visit. Deputy Feighan and the Minister of State, Deputy Marian Harkin, were in attendance as well. We had a useful look at St. Angela’s College, as well as visiting ATU in Sligo.

I would love to see St. Angela’s continue to thrive and expand with activities and further growth on that site. At a time when we need more nursing supply, we need to be doing more, not less. St. Angela’s College has a role to play in that regard. Having said that, I also recognise institutional autonomy. When the technological university concept was created, we effectively said we were going to build clusters in regions of what were formally institutes of technology or independent colleges and put them together as universities, which we have done. It goes against the grain of that to an extent to direct them and say that although they are now a unit, they can only work in certain ways within that unit or within those subunits. While I agree with the Deputy that there is a great role for St. Angela’s College, it is ultimately up to the ATU executive as to how it manages its own resources and assets within the portfolio. I certainly agree the opportunity is there and I would love to see it developed, particularly in the nursing area, as the Deputy has mentioned. I am not forgetting home economics either, which is taught particularly well there. There is also the scope for other auxiliary-type courses.

In respect of student accommodation at ATU Sligo, as the Deputy knows, some 16 acres were purchased, or are going through the purchase process in any event. I approved the money, which was the scope of my Department’s involvement.

I did that with a happy heart a number of months ago and I hope to see that progress well. There is a strong opportunity for accommodation provision in that. The ATU executive will lead out on that and take decisions as to the use of and plans for the site. There is a technological universities student accommodation fund and I believe engagement between the officials on that is ongoing at this stage so I would be hopeful we will see it develop.

More broadly, the other work I have referenced, such as the standardised design and the student accommodation strategy, will benefit Sligo as well as everywhere else. I expect these national programmes will be of benefit everywhere.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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The Minister is very welcome and I look forward to working constructively with him and the committee over the coming years.

I will start with student housing. I was president of the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, ten years ago and student housing was an issue then. The scale of the issue has increased tenfold since then. This is a symptom and consequence of the wider housing crisis. There needs to be joined-up thinking between the Minister's Department and the Department of housing. It is concerning the student housing strategy was promised in quarter 2 of this year, in the response to a parliamentary question, and now the Minister is saying it will be the end of the year. Will the Minister give a guarantee today that strategy will be in place before the end of the year? I engage a lot with students' unions and student representatives. I met representatives of UCC Students Union on Friday, for example and they highlighted the lack of purpose-built student accommodation in Cork that is owned by institutions. Only 18% of student accommodation in Cork is publicly owned, compared with 44% in Dublin, 36% in Galway and 56% in Limerick. These figures are concerning, in general. They are 2023 figures so I acknowledge they may have changed somewhat since then.

In regard to digs, protection of the rights of students living in digs is an area that needs more emphasis given that more students are having to rely on digs and the use of the rent-a-room relief scheme in recent years because of the student housing shortage.

In terms of technological universities, I know their capacity to borrow and build their own accommodation themselves is a concern for them. I just attended a briefing by the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, and it is always apparent to me that education in general is connected, be it from early years, primary, secondary, tertiary or fourth level. There is a connection in general and we are underspending as a whole in Ireland in terms of OECD average spend on education. Something that struck me was that, 20% of the population has low literacy levels and the adult education system, which often operates out of further education or third level, has a huge impact on improving those literacy rates and that often has an intergenerational knock-on effect. More investment in that will be key.

It is great to hear the emphasis the Minister is putting on research and innovation. It is an area that has been lacking in recent years and is a significant part of the Minister's brief. I welcome the Minister's comments about attracting talent from overseas and from the US to Ireland. However, it is important we heed the concerns of the likes of the Irish Federation of University Teachers, who are telling us that a lot of the staff in the sector already have precarious working conditions and pay. The funding deficit in our universities, which I know there have been attempts to close, needs to be looked at in the upcoming budget. Will the Minister comment on those questions and remarks?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for her continued interest in and advocacy for the sector. I very much acknowledge that. She raised a number of issues and I will try to run through them. Starting with student accommodation and housing, this is a challenging area and one I am very much aware of and intend to address. The strategy should be available by the end of the summer, certainly by the end of the year, but I hope by the end of the summer. Even sooner, as in the next couple of weeks before the summer recess of the Oireachtas I very much intend to publish the student design programme because that is what the section 28 guidelines, for example, will be based on in terms of planning permissions for student accommodation. That will really kick start the process and the broader strategy will follow later in the year. It is something I am mindful of and very keen to progress so I intend to bring that through quickly.

I understand the Senator's points about the struggle in terms of the wider housing market. We are all aware of the challenges there. It is a balance. Many of the reforms in recent years such as 12-month tenancies, bringing the landlord-tenant relationship in student accommodation under the remit of the Residential Tenancies Board and effectively bringing student accommodation provision under the wider landlord-tenant regulatory system have pros and cons, to put it simply. The pros are that there are greater protections and it is a more regulated framework but there can always be challenges and part of the juggling act is to avoid them having a chilling effect on people who might have been minded to offer supply. Flexibilities that might have been there previously may have been eliminated through doing that.

In terms of digs, they are a really useful option in the wider portfolio of options. It is not the primary option but it is a popular one for many people. There are different online platforms where people can search for digs accommodation. I have kept an eye on them myself over the past number of months with regard to different university towns around the country, such as Galway, Limerick, Cork, Sligo, etc., and typically there are digs available. The availability of digs accommodation remains steady. Even though the housing market and, by extension, the student accommodation market is squeezed and is tight - I acknowledge that it is - there remains a supply of digs accommodation in many of those university towns. In recent years, my Department has encouraged students to look at digs as a viable option. It may be that first or second year students might find it very useful but students moving into their final years may find it less so. There are different options.

The Senator mentioned Cork and the Department engaged extensively with UCC on the provision and development of the Crow's Nest. We are working on that.

In terms of the research talent issue, it is important we are an open door. I believe in academic freedom and integrity and if other parts of the world are closing down those values we have an obligation to stand up for and advocate for them. We should be welcoming to those from other jurisdictions. In addition, there is a benefit to international collaboration. I completely hear the points the Senator made about IFUT and the researchers and I am engaging with it. We all benefit if we can attract talent from the four corners of the globe, bringing new ideas and diversity into the system. That helps domestically as well because we all get a lift from that.

There is a literacy fund. The collaboration and innovation fund is part of that and that is an area I will be working on. I acknowledge the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, who is leading on that.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his opening comments. I acknowledge the breadth of work his Department has undertaken across all sectors of learning. There is a great deal to be encouraged by, particularly the progress on student accommodation the Minister just mentioned. I will mention the return of student accommodation in Munster Technological University, MTU, in Tralee recently. That is a relief going forward for those students attending MTU, which is growing and growing. That has to be acknowledged.

Today, I will focus a lot of my attention and contribution on apprenticeships and will highlight some critical concerns about how we are supporting apprentices, both now and into the future. The Minister mentioned the five-year strategy for apprenticeships and an ambition for a more integrated system that reflects the changing world of work. This is very welcome but we must be honest about apprentices. Right now, we are facing real challenges that could derail those ambitions unless we address them. Apprenticeships remain financially unattractive and increasingly difficult to sustain. Wages remain a large issue. Some apprentices, especially in their first or second year, are earning barely above the minimum wage and in some cases not even that. How can we reasonably expect young people to train and live independently, particularly in areas with spiralling living costs? Fees are a barrier. Apprentice students are still required to pay student contribution charges, a policy which in effect penalises those taking vocational routes over academic ones. I find that deeply unfair. This brings me to the programme for Government. There is a commitment to reduce the student contribution fees overall but apprentices are still waiting for clarity.

Will that commitment extend to them? Will they see a reduction or an elimination of their fees? I ask these questions because we need to show we are serious about parity of esteem between apprenticeships and traditional third level routes.

I urge the Minister to consider a couple of key measures. Will he increase apprentice pay, particularly in the early stages of training? This provision may require co-operation with industry but is vital for retention. Will he eliminate or significantly reduce student contribution fees for apprentices, especially given their practical work contributions during their training? Will he provide clear timelines and targets for expanding apprenticeship places across non-traditional sectors, which have been mentioned already, including the greentech, healthcare and digital sectors? Last, will he increase wraparound supports such as travel allowances, hardship funds and affordable accommodation access for block release phases?

I will highlight two further steps that must be undertaken, the first of which is the SUSI income disregard. As it stands, too many students are penalised for working part-time jobs. If they earn more than the current income level is €8,424 for the year, they risk losing grant support. I call for the income disregard to be raised to €12,000 so students can earn without fear of disqualification. This will ease the cost-of-living burden and allow students and their families to plan more securely. Can the Minister increase the pay that apprentice students earn on release so that they can complete their education?

On the issue of fees more broadly, we should set a clear goal of eliminating student contribution fees across all third level sector education over the next five years. Such an initiative would be a transformative step and would be in line with the spirit of the programme for Government. It would also ensure that access to education is based on ability and aspiration, not financial capacity. Last, I commend the €1,000 reduction in student fees to date, which has been a lifeline for many families.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for leading a recent motion in the Seanad in this area. It was a very useful engagement as well. All of these initial engagements with the committee, the Seanad and the Dáil are really helpful, certainly to me as Minister, to understand the interests of members and generate detailed discussion of areas of my brief.

The Senator has raised a number of items today. I did visit the MTU Cork campus but I have not visited the MTU campus in Tralee yet. I will do so very soon.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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MTU Kerry would welcome the Minister.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Indeed, the programme for Government commits to parity of esteem across different aspects of the TUs, including very much MTU. I will visit very soon.

The point the Senator made on wages for apprentices is a difficult one. The Senator, quite legitimately, said that he would like student apprentices to be paid a higher wage. Recently I was in a room with employers who said that the cost of taking on apprentices has increased with the cost of living, overheads, etc. That is the balancing act because ultimately apprenticeships are employer facilitators. If an employer does not take on an apprentice, an apprenticeship does not exist. An apprenticeship must be something that works for both sides. The argument has been made that when apprentices are in their early years - typically, year 1 and sometimes into year 2 - they very much train and learn, and the rate that a qualified professional will attract on completion of an apprenticeship is probably not the rate that is commensurate with their skill level at that stage when they are just starting off. The typical pay for an entry-level apprentice in year 1 and starting out is about one third of the going rate for the discipline but pay raises to 90% or more by year 4 although sometimes it is 50%. A training rate is paid in the early stages but it increases as the apprentice moves towards graduation, which is logical as their skill set is improving. Successfully completing their training will make them more attractive to employers. When apprentices qualify, they will earn the full rate of pay. That is how things have worked to date but I am open to suggestions. I reiterate that if employers do not provide openings for apprentices, they will not exist at all so we must strike the right balance.

On an income disregard for students who work part-time, I hear what the Senator has said. It is an aspect that we touched on during the Seanad debate. It is something I am keen to tackle.

On student contribution fees, abolishing them would go a lot further than the commitment given in the programme for Government. I hear what the Senator is saying. Let us see where we get to on that over the lifetime of the Government.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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As I have said previously, I wish the Minister extremely well in his role. His Ministry is extremely important for the development of this country, particularly academic development. I echo the words of my colleague, Senator Laura Harmon, about the percentage of purpose-built accommodation for students in Cork. Can the Minister outline why there is such a percentage difference in purpose-built accommodation in Cork when compared with other major cities like Limerick and Dublin? Is it due to poor planning over a number of years or is it just a case of it being difficult to find suitable locations? I am interesting in learning why Cork has lagged behind in the amount of purpose-built accommodation for students.

Like Senator Kennelly, I want to focus on apprenticeships. It is extremely difficult now to employ a sparky, carpenter or plumber and previously it was much easier. When one rings an electrician, carpenter or plumber he or she will say it will be a couple of weeks before he or she can make a home visit. It is often the case that when one rings a plumber it is an emergency situation and his or her skills are needed immediately so one has people doing favours for different people. There is a serious problem with attracting more students who are coming out of post-primary education to apprenticeship-style education. This has had a number of effects. One of the biggest reasons for this situation is the amount of money that apprentices are paid. It is a fact that most of these students earn less than the minimum wage. I wholeheartedly agree with the Minister that an apprenticeship can only exist if an employer offers one. It is a balancing act. Does the new Department propose to introduce incentives for employers to create apprenticeships? I suggest that it should because without incentives, employers will not be as willing to take on an apprentice. We all know that an apprenticeship means further work for the employer in the form of training but this greatly benefits the community.

The next issue is travel. It is a fact that people are waiting ten, 11 or 12 months for a driving test, which is an issue for the Department. This issue has been raised at Cabinet level. Normally, when a person is offered an apprenticeship, he or she will have to travel. More than likely, he or she will have to travel by car. Dublin city has great transport links but a car is still a necessity everywhere else. We need to be able to ensure that people embarking upon an apprenticeship will have access to a car.

Before I was elected, I was a teacher in a poor enough socioeconomic area where third level or further education was not attractive so we must make that attractive. There is a lack of attractiveness because of the associated costs with third level or further education. I compliment the Government on significantly reducing costs but there are still underlying costs with, for example, the purchase of ICT equipment and the travel allowance. The SUSI grant covers some expenses but not enough.

Last, research and innovation plays an essential role. One of my best friends is studying in UCC for his PhD in chemical engineering, which is a significant department in the university. In fact, the students in that department travel across the world to represent Ireland on a research basis. These PhD students do very important work but the stipend paid to them is simply not enough because it costs anywhere between €600 and €800 just to rent a room in a house in Cork city and on top of that they have travel costs.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Please allow time for the Minister to respond.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Absolutely. On top of that, students are trying to afford groceries, etc. Could we look at the possibility of increasing the stipend once again? I compliment the Department on the fact it was increased previously.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I will take some of the points the Deputy made in reverse order. I will try to answer them all in the minute I have.

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Sorry.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I know how it works. I was on the Deputy's side of the table for a long time. It is hard to get it all in, but I will do my best.

Twenty-five thousand euro is a lot more than €16,000, which was there previously. There has been a 37% increase in the past year or two. We heard people and we increased the stipend. I secured Cabinet approval for National Training Fund moneys to be released to continue to progress that. The €25,000 stipend is there. I appreciate it is not as much as many would like, but it has to be seen in the context of fees being paid for the student on top of that. It is a tax-free stipend. No PRSI or PAYE is being paid on it. It is not quite like for like if we compare it with a worker, say, in the PAYE system who is then paying a number of deductions on top of that. I appreciate what the Deputy said, but it is more than it was and there are no deductions. On top of that,-----

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The fees.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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-----there is the fee piece as well, which should be noted. However, I get the importance of that sector. I intend to increase the number of PhD and postdoctoral students across the board and to have a big vehicle for funding the research ecosystem as a whole. That is something I am very much engaged on.

On purpose-built student accommodation in Cork, there are some further initiatives in that regard. I mentioned the student accommodation strategy and the common standard design that I was bringing in. A 500-bed private development is proceeding on the Bandon Road, which is coming on stream. There is also the Cork part of MTU. Senator Kennelly will know there are two horses at MTU, but the Cork part is developing some-----

Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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We will claim it.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I will not get involved in that one.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I will wave the Leinster flag.

Proposals are coming through from MTU Cork and UCC was included in the consultation. When we did the short-term activation, which produced accommodation at Maynooth and DCU, UCC was part of the consultation but it was not ready to take up the offer at that point. It is not for want of trying, to put it simply.

I am not in the Department responsible for driving tests, but I was a Minister of State in that Department last year, so I have some awareness of it. I am very unhappy with the progress there, as is all of the Government. That is fundamentally why we are reforming the RSA. I will not get into the details due to lack of time and the fact I am not in the Department any more, but I know the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, are very much driving that forward. There have been improvements to the student Leap card. I firmly believe that investment in public transport at scale is the way we will tackle the issue long term. That is progressing but it is probably best to leave it to the Ministers in that Department to get into the detail.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for being with us. Student accommodation is a big and serious issue. I have met with student unions, parents and students. I also visited Maynooth University last week. It is delighted with the announcement of the new student beds, which are very much welcome. It remains to be seen whether these will keep up with all the new students.

The Minister mentioned digs. There are huge problems with digs. That is not where I would send students, as it is unregulated and insecure. I know the demand has to be met but digs are not something I recommend.

The other issue that could be coming up for students is that of the new system whereby if a tenant voluntarily leaves, a landlord can reset the rent up to market value. We know that students are being forced into the private market. Will there be protections for students in this area? That could be a big issue. Some of them end up having to do long commutes and work extra hours to pay these high rents and are just not taking up places because of it.

We spoke in the Dáil recently about the issue of mental health. When will the report of the national consultation on the national student mental health and the suicide prevention framework be released? The last submission to that was in April. When will that document be released?

I have been contact with a lot of ETB staff. They are being put on an adult education contract so they are only being paid for ten months. ETBs are hiring new part-time teachers instead of giving current teachers full-time jobs. There has been a downgrading of teachers in ETBs to adult educators even though many of them work in primary schools. There is no back pay, although this was promised 12 months ago. There has also been a downgrading of pension entitlements under the new adult educator contract. When will a fairer contract be negotiated for teachers at ETBs?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for her ongoing interest. We have had a few exchanges in the Dáil, which I welcome. She touched on a few of these topics there as well. That is very useful.

Digs accommodation is an important part of the package but it is only one option among others. It has a useful role to serve. On its regulation, there is a licence agreement, which is available and encouraged by my Department, that is taken up by digs providers and students. The colleges also support that and make it available. It is optional and not mandatory. In a situation where people might have a spare room, such as an elderly person or people in different situations, and are considering making it available as digs accommodation, overregulation might have the effect of that accommodation being withdrawn from the market altogether. Getting that balance right is part of the challenge of digs.

The rent pressure zone proposals announced yesterday are obviously very new to all of us. I was at Cabinet when we were briefed on it, but I will meet the Minister, Deputy Browne, in the next couple of weeks to thrash out the student accommodation aspects of that and see how it will work in terms of the student experience. We will make sure that it works for students. That is ultimately what it has to do. The student accommodation piece is a subset of the wider housing piece. It has many common challenges but many unique points as well. I am aware of that.

On adult educators and the ETBs - correct me if I am wrong and the Deputy is talking about something else - the industrial relations issue in the ETBs to date has largely been about the new grade of adult educator and the recognition of that as its own unique role. It is not that of a teacher or tutor but an adult educator, which is a particular function and occupation, that is being offered to those who want to avail of it. I am happy with that. I recommended it as an option. As far as I am concerned, that is an option that I support and endorse. Ultimately, however, it is not mandatory that any particular worker must go onto that grade, but the option is there for workers to do that. There is a responsibility on the ETBs to make sure they are equipped to make that transition. Some of them have been faster than others at doing so. Some of them have not embraced it in the way they should. I am very unhappy with that. I have limited recourse in terms of actions, but there are one or two ETBS that could be moving a lot faster to adopt that grade and make it available to their staff. I am very aware of that.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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The mental health issue-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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We have had some discussions on the mental health piece. Did the Deputy ask me when the strategy would be available?

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. When will the framework be released?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is not there yet. I will come back to the Deputy with a note on that, if that is okay. I do not have the detail with me today. There are a number of different mental health schemes within the colleges. Different supports are available. Some colleges have their own supports. A wider mechanism is available under some of the national schemes. We had an exchange previously about some intimidation and assaults on campus. There have been some very unpleasant and unwarranted incidents. A lot of the student experience is coming in as a subset of wider national strategies, including the national strategy on domestic and sexual violence, which I was involved in when I chaired the justice committee. Many of these plans are at national level but there is a student component to them. I will come back to the Deputy with details on that.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise to the Minister. I had to leave to go to another meeting, so I did not hear all of his contribution. It is great to have him at the committee so early in its life. We look forward to working with him and his Department on a range of issues.

I am sure all the other issues were covered, but one issue I will raise is that of further education. I spoke to the Minister previously, and we had an exchange during oral questions as well, regarding the welcome emphasis on further education since 2020, especially since the establishment of the Department and substantial capital funding being provided towards the provision of further education colleges. As the Minister knows, I have a particular interest in Cavan Institute. I was glad he has confirmed that project is progressing through to the next stage and to tendering. Hopefully, that will not be delayed.

An area I have often spoken about in the House and elsewhere is that of the opportunities for further and more intense collaboration on an all-Ireland basis with regard to the further education sector. I have become familiar over the years with the college of further education at Enniskillen.

Indeed, many years ago Northern Ireland had a much more advanced further education sector than we had. Today our sector is more advanced than theirs. That is a great credit to the individual colleges, the Department and individual educational and training boards. There are opportunities for more collaboration because every institute cannot provide all the courses. In some instances we should have a sharing of courses and some way of easing the admissions process for students from here going to college in Northern Ireland and students from Northern Ireland going to the colleges here. I have seen the success of colleges. Understandably, I am particularly familiar with Cavan Institute and Monaghan Institute. They have been hugely beneficial for students who may not have had the desired number of points to go straight into third level. They have been a great pathway to higher education. They have also been great outlets for giving people the necessary skills in particular disciplines. People can go to complete their education in these colleges and go on to very successful careers. I am very glad to see necessary and essential capital funding going into those colleges, such as Cavan, which has a need for additional accommodation because of the growth in enrolment over the years. I look forward to that particular project being progressed and all-Ireland further education developments being brought to a new level. I wish the Minister well in his work. I am sure we will have plenty of engagement with him at this committee.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I know he is interested in the shared island initiative, the Border regions, and Cavan in particular. The Deputy is a member of the Good Friday committee so will know the shared island fund now has a €1 billion budget going forward. There is an intention to develop an all-island apprenticeship strategy as part of that. I visited Queen's University and further education centres in Belfast not so long ago. I agree completely with the Deputy that there is a huge opportunity for cross-Border collaboration. Some of the shared island funding could be smartly targeted in some of those initiatives. This may speak more to the higher education space. There are also mobility supports for students to go both directions across the border. I recall when I was in college many Northern Irish students attended Dublin colleges. That seems to have fallen away a little bit in recent years. One of the reasons for that is the Northern education system uses A-levels as opposed to the leaving certificate. Straight As in the A-levels does not give 600 points: it gives 560 or 570. A-level students could not get into the high-points, very competitive courses such as veterinary studies, medicine, law. Traditionally, that was where there had been a lot of cross-Border mobility. That has been tackled by the introduction of an additional, optional subject for examinations that can be used in conjunction with the A-levels to get to what would effectively be considered full points in the leaving certificate. That is being implemented from this year and will allow that mobility to start again. Regarding the other direction, a number of students from south of the border attend both Queens University and Ulster University. I met some of the Irish students, particularly on the medicine and nursing courses, who are doing well. The education provided by the Northern institutions is paid for through the HEA and my Department. There is an issue with a cap in Northern Ireland, which the Deputy might be familiar with. Northern Irish students reach a point where they are capped out due to the UK budgetary system, which obviously is outside of our control. Everybody will agree that is not a particularly desirable situation but that is what they have there.

I visited Dundalk with the Cathaoirleach recently. As it is close to the Border there is a lot of cross-Border mobility, with students going both ways. There is an opportunity for further expansion of that, including the further education fees that Deputy Smith talked about. That is something we will continue to work on. The shared island proposals continue to evolve. If there are particular projects that the Deputy or others have in mind, I am happy to hear them and we will see if we can progress some of them.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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In his opening statement, the Minister said the lack of affordable accommodation is a big barrier for students attending tertiary education, and that is obviously correct. He is part of the Government that signed off on a plan yesterday that is going to make that crisis for students a lot worse. Arguably, students are the group that is hit hardest. Students who are in rental accommodation will effectively not have any rental protection whatsoever. They will not be covered by 2% caps and they will not be covered by the consumer price index caps because the vast majority of students in private rented accommodation change tenancies very regularly every year. Therefore, every time they go back to rent again, their rent will be reset to the market rate. There is no rent protection for them. When asked about it, the Minister said he will meet with the Minister for housing, Deputy Browne, to thrash out how this will work, and he said he will make sure it works. I do not understand. The Minister is there at Cabinet. Student accommodation is one of the biggest issues in higher education. How has he not already thought this through? Are students an afterthought to this Government? Is the Minister saying the rules will not apply as they were announced yesterday? Is he saying there will be some extra protection for students in private rented accommodation? There are more students in private rented accommodation than in purpose-built student accommodation. Why has he signed off on a decision that is going to deepen the accommodation crisis for students?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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There is a degree of polemic there, which the Deputy is entitled to. He has a political view. I have a political view. They rarely coincide, although I hope we both support the investment in research, innovation and education at a broader level. However, I am not the Minister for housing. I work with him. I am part of the Government. We have a new proposal, which was introduced yesterday that will come in to effect next March. There will be a lot of water under the bridge between now and next March. I will sit down with my colleague, the Minster for housing, with whom I have spoken numerous times on student accommodation, and we will delve into the details about how it will effect the student accommodation sector.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Let me explain to you-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, through the Chair. I was not actually finished.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It is my time.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Let me explain to the Minister how it will work and he can tell me if I am wrong.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy can explain how he thinks it will work.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes, and he is a Government Minister and can tell me if it is wrong. There will be no rental protection for students who are in private rented accommodation every time they change tenancy. Let us say I am from Castlebar and I am going to college in Dublin. I rent from September until June or July. I will come back next September and I will not get any rent protection. My rent can be reset to the market rate. Is that accurate?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I am not going to get into a binary question with a yes-no answer with the Deputy because this is a plan that was introduced yesterday at high level, of which the details will be formulated in conjunction with other Ministers over the next number of months. I cannot put it more plainly than that.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Is the Minister saying the press statement issued by the Department of housing yesterday was inaccurate?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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This is not Leaders' Questions. This is a committee exchange on higher education of which student accommodation is a part but it is not appropriate to have a robust engagement on a housing initiative that was launched yesterday by a different Minister.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The Minister stated the lack of affordable accommodation is a big barrier for students attending tertiary accommodation-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, of course.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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----- and it is a priority for him.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yet, he does not know how the new scheme is going to work.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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We have a new scheme, introduced yesterday.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes, and you signed off on it.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I presume the Minister signed off on it, and agreed to it with collective responsibility.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, of course. It will come in to effect next March. We will work out the detail for every sector and, from my perspective, for the student accommodation sector between now and March, and hopefully a lot sooner.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Can he tell students now that if they are in private rented accommodation they are going to be covered by rental protection and that they are not going to face market increases every time they have a new tenancy?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It would be extremely unhelpful and unwise for me to speculate about the future outworkings of a plan that is yet to be thrashed out in detail for my particular sector.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Does the Minister agree that when this legislation is being put together, students need to be protected so they cannot be subject to market resets every time they return to college, for example, the three or four times in the course of going to college?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Are we going to do only yes-no answers?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes. The Minister can answer. Yes-no answers. Does he agree?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is unhelpful to get into that sort of binary debate.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thought he asked if we were doing yes-no answers.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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No, I asked if that was the Deputy's intention.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes. The Minister is coming before us the day after we have had a major-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Leaders' Questions are at 12 p.m. if he wants to go there.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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No. I want to interrogate the Minister for higher education who has acknowledged that accommodation is the number one issue. When we spoke about the priorities for this committee, we spoke about this.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Murphy, please speak through the Chair.

The Minister has on several occasions answered the Deputy’s questions about the proposals announced yesterday, that are not finalised or complete. He has noted on several occasions that they will be duly thrashed out in several different committees and particularly in the Department of housing, and no doubt in the Dáil before next March. It is not fair to the Minister to interrogate him about fresh proposals announced yesterday on plans that are not going to be finalised or implemented until March.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Respectfully, the Chair’s job is not to defend the Government-----

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I am not defending but being fair to a Minister visiting the committee room.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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-----or to protect the Minister from questioning. The Minister will not even answer whether it is his position as Minister for higher education, that students should be protected from hikes every time they come back but-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is not what the Deputy asked me. He asked a very specific question.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I did ask that. That is the yes or no question the Minister refused to answer. If he wishes to answer it now, I will ask it again. As the Minister for higher education, does the Minister agree that students who are in private rented accommodation should not be subject to rental resets every time they go to college and should have some level of rent protection?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It would be unhelpful, premature and unwise to get into a detailed binary set of commitments around legislation that has yet to be drafted around proposals that were introduced at broad, high level yesterday, that are not due to kick in for almost a year. It would be unhelpful and would run the risk of misleading students and many other interested parties; primarily students. Also there is the question of talking to the Minister responsible who takes the lead on this. What I will say, and which I acknowledged in my opening statement; the provision of affordable, quality student accommodation that works for students, is close to their place of study and is available at scale is an absolute priority of mine. That is why I am introducing four different initiatives to support that. The designs will be introduced in the coming weeks, and the student accommodation strategy will be introduced by the end of the year, if not sooner. The technological university student accommodation fund is already in play and we have a national survey undergoing with significant inputs in terms of understanding supply and demand needs in different parts of the country - because there are regional patterns in this, as well as supporting the digs sector and other forms of accommodation. I am acutely aware of the importance of accommodation available at scale which is affordable to students. I will make those views known to the Minister, Deputy Browne. I have already discussed student accommodation as part of the wider housing strategy, and I look forward to engaging with him in the detail of that. Those are the points I will champion in my discussions.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for coming in today, and I very much welcome his opening statement and focus on the four priorities. The statement provides us with great clarity, along with his Department.

There are matters I want to raise, the first of which, as many people have raised, is student accommodation. Just to personalise the situation a bit, I certainly have known students who have had to overnight in their cars, who face long commutes and are forced to travel home every weekend; all of which impacts their ability to succeed and to enjoy the social aspects of the university lifestyle as well. To that, the Minister identified a couple of areas he is focusing on. To dig into that just a little bit more, in respect of the supports for the TU, is the Minister looking at enabling any sort of bargaining framework in order that they can try and invest further, maybe in addition to what is coming from the Department?

Regarding digs, which certainly is a significant provider of accommodation, one of the issues is quality, which might be one of the reasons there are vacancies. Will the Minister look at any form of light regulation, such as random inspection, to provide more certainty in that marketplace?

The second area I want to mention is apprenticeships, which my colleagues have highlighted to a quite significant extent. I am delighted there is a plan under review there. I ask about the number of actual work placements and whether the Minister envisages that those will be increased. That has been one of the challenges. It is easier to increase the places in further education, but slower to actually increase the number of employers that provide them. What is the Minister’s strategy around that? I would welcome some detail on that in the overall strategy that is to come forward.

On the TU sector, I note the Department will progress with additional professorships. That will be very helpful in attracting the talent from overseas the Minister also mentioned. In association with that, I would like the Minister to look at the precariousness of people teaching in higher education and further education. It results in a high level of turnover. People do not have certainty, and an awful lot of people leave the sector because they are forced to, because they cannot make a living out of it. It is not so much they cannot make a living out of it but there is a lack of certainty in it. The person does not know if he or she is going to have a job next year. I would like to see if the Minister will do something on that.

Finally, the Minister mentioned expanding the space with regard to the medical and healthcare sector. Is he specifically looking at expanding places for dentistry and veterinary? I know many students who have gone overseas and have then got jobs and come back here. It would be great if they could actually stay here to do their studies.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. There are a number of points there.

A new dentistry course starts this year in the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI. I was at the college when it announced it recently and that is to kick off this September. That is under way and imminent.

In respect of veterinary studies, I completely agree there are too many Irish students studying in Poland and eastern Europe, and that has been the case, unfortunately, for a number of years. We will introduce two new courses, one at ATU and one at SETU, both of which are planned to start in September 2026, a year away. I have been out to both colleges, and have a meeting this afternoon. It is very important we do that. We will continue to monitor demand to see whether those course provisions are adequate to cater for it. That is very much part of the parcel.

As regards the other healthcare-related courses I am rolling out, I worked with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, on the disability provision. We invited the Department of Health to provide some guidance as to what the priority disciplines in the healthcare field are that are required. We were advised that among these are occupational therapy, physiotherapy, speech and language therapy, dietitians and educational psychologists. Others such as the Ministers, Deputies McEntee and Foley, as well as educational psychologists, had other inputs. We have a Cabinet subcommittee working on disability provision and based on that, we have identified nine disciplines which are key to that provision. I am on course to introduce 461 new places on those which, of course, will repeat over time. We are expanding offerings across those areas.

In terms of the TU borrowing framework, I intend and have set course to enable this programme for Government commitment. I am keen to fulfil it,but it is not simple. There is the ongoing off-balance sheet and on-balance sheet issue, in terms of our own national borrowing limits, etc. There are potential solutions to that, including legislation, but there is a bit of work still to be done there. I am engaging with each of the institutions and as I said, I will meet SETU today. I have already been out on-site. The meeting today is in Dublin. I have visited all of the TUs at this stage and have had conversations with the boards. As proposals come through – I invite proposals and if there are particular funding needs we can examine those in detail - we can look at the borrowing framework and how it might be enabled in a way that enables the State to meet its own fiscal commitments and obligations, and yet give the institutions the freedom to be able to invest in their own capital spending, which they very much wish to do and which I want them to be able to do. Certain institutions have greater levels of maturity than others and maybe greater capacity to progress some of these projects. I invite projects on a case by case basis and if one emerges as a pilot, that is the one that moves first and the rest may fall behind that.

In respect of student accommodation, I completely agree about the digs being a key part of that. The Deputy mentioned quality. We have a light engagement, and I use the phrase "light regulation" around that. There is a sample licence agreement between the student and the digs provider. There are 4,000 digs beds available today. There is a website the Deputy can check. There is typically a much greater number of digs available than there are private rental accommodation. I take the Deputy’s point about quality. I am sure there is a spectrum across the board there.

In terms of apprenticeships, we have spent more. The budget for apprenticeships has increased massively since this Department was created; increasing by €184 million, up to €339 million. It is the biggest funding commitment for apprenticeships ever in the history of the State and certainly this Department had a lot to do with that. This year, a further €77.4 million was committed. We are committed to growing both the breadth and range of apprenticeships out there and supporting employers, who the Deputy mentioned. I met a group of employers on this morning. All day, every day, I meet stakeholders, be they students, student unions, employers, training providers, colleges or institutions. It is very much part of my approach as a new Minister to get out into the field and meet people and hear what they have to say. There are challenges but that is part of the reason I am listening, that is, to hear what they are and see how to tackle them.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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First, comhghairdeachas leis an Aire ar a ról nua. I congratulate the Minister, as a fellow Gorey man, on his elevation to this high office. It is great to see. I wish him well in his endeavours.

There are a number of areas I could focus on, but time will not permit - especially my fears around student accommodation crisis, which may become a disaster. That is a fear I have, and it is feedback I am getting. I would also like to see an all-Ireland dimension to our work, which I note the Minister is committed to as well.

I have a topical question to do with my own area, namely, the South East Technological University, SETU. The Minister addressed it and we spoke about it Riverchapel last week. As he knows, the CPO challenge for the site was rejected, which cleared the way for the purchase and plans around the SETU, which will serve the entire area. There has been much enthusiasm in the past decade. It is several years since Deputy Johnny Mythen, Councillor Tom Forde and I met the heads of the university in Carlow. Last week, a bit of a cloud came over the south east in the sense that the Minister may have - maybe not intentionally - dampened the optimism on the progression. It has been in the pipeline for over a decade. It might not have been his intention. I appreciate that he may have wanted to be cautious in his approach in a new brief. However, people perceived that the Government has rowed back in terms of assurances around funding. The Tánaiste, Simon Harris, promised funding for this some years ago. The Minister said himself that he does not promise money but that he will make it a priority, so I welcome that. Once this proposal is completed, on the table, he has it in front of him and it ticks all the boxes, can the Minister give us an assurance that he will not be found wanting in terms of provision of funding for the development of South East Technological University? That is the first question.

Second, on apprenticeships, I welcome the Minister’s commitment and plans around this area. For many years, this has been the poor relation. People have looked down their nose on apprenticeships in Ireland, looking up to college and university degrees. We need all of these things, but Ireland at the moment is crying out for bus drivers, retrofitters and plumbers. We have been very narrow in our focus on apprenticeships in the past. I think we have 77 at present. I remember going to an EU event many years ago and a person from Germany pointed out that - back then - they had more than 300 apprenticeships. Currently, we have too few young people getting apprenticeships, and those who do are trapped on apprenticeship wages for months and maybe years because the State has not provided adequate off-the-job training capacity. As well as increasing the number of apprenticeships, can we broaden the scope of these to bring them more in line with Europe so that we have more apprenticeships in the public service and State agencies? Can we also address the pay issue? I refer to incentives for employers in that regard.

Much of the vision some of our founder fathers would have had on provision of Irish-language education has slipped in recent years. As part of his five-year framework, can the Minister make these two things a priority? One is the promotion of our national language, Irish, throughout the third-level campuses in Ireland, North and South. Would the Minister look at the expansion of the provision of third-level education trí Ghaeilge? Many people want to pursue that option and it is extremely limited at the moment.

Those are my three questions.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta Ó Súilleabháin agus Loch Garman abú freisin. I thank the Deputy for that. It was good to talk to him in Riverchapel National School – my old national school – in Wexford last week. It was a good event.

I am a big supporter of the Wexford SETU campus and the vision that has been articulated there by a number of parties in terms of the aspirations of the local authority and others to develop that site. I understand there are plans for a primary and secondary school provision on it and playing fields - I think a soccer club is intended to move there. There is an affordable housing element to it. However, I do not control all the levers. I have some degree of influence over the educational part of it, but it is a wider site. I was pleased to see that the CPO challenge had fallen away and the CPO can now progress. As I said on the radio last week, I hope and anticipate it is full steam ahead by the local authority to bring that CPO to fruition. There will not be any difficulty in funding in terms of the CPO and certainly in terms of my Department’s piece of it. I cannot speak for what others might wish to do or progress but I do not envisage any difficulties that way. I might have sounded realistic. I did not intend caution but just realism. It will not be an overnight development, no more than any of them. I am aware of and I join in the broad relief and celebration of the fact the CPO is now cleared to proceed. Funding will not be an issue in terms of the higher educational parts of it. However, we still have a bit of a way to go because we have to get the site, we have to put a plan together for the site and we need to engage with SETU. I am meeting SETU representatives today, and this is on the agenda, among other things. It is not my first meeting with them; I have met them a number of times. I am very committed to making sure this proceeds but we still have a bit of a way to go. A proposal has to be put together that has to encompass the local education needs; it needs to be suitable and adding value to the area; it has to meet the Higher Education Authority’s framework and so on; and it then has to progress into a funding call. Just to be honest about it, there are a couple steps to go and I do not see them happening overnight. However, I will certainly put my shoulder to the wheel to support them and get them progressed.

More generally about Wexford, in particular Wexford town and surrounding areas, my understanding is the level of educational attainment is perhaps a little bit lower in terms of third-level qualifications and graduate rates than other parts of the country. Arguably, that could be because a lack of a third-level option there. Traditionally, it was Waterford and Carlow. For example, in Gorey, where the Deputy and I come from, you can commute. It is a bit of a distance but you can do it. South Wexford could have been vulnerable in that sense. I think the numbers stack up and the metrics are very strong. I hope that in my time as Minister it is possible to develop that campus and see that reach its potential. However, there is an obligation and dependency on all stakeholders, including SETU, to come to the table with a good, solid proposal that will match the educational needs of that sector and provide a vibrant third-level campus there, and put a proposal together that stacks up and will meet HEA approval and my own Department in due course. As far as I am concerned, it is full steam ahead, but I inject that note of reality into it that there are a number of steps to the process.

The Deputy spoke about oideachas as Gaeilge. In Galway, we have the acadamh up and running, which is doing good work around the provision of Irish-medium higher education, and we are looking at that. The Department of culture and sport is engaged in that also. Funding is coming in for that. It is something I would like to progress and see more of. It will be priority for me. It is important that we provide educational opportunities through the Irish language.

Regarding apprenticeships, the Deputy mentioned bus drivers. In a prior role, I had the privilege of serving as a Minister of State in the Department of Transport. I met many fantastic apprentice mechanics, including for large heavy-duty vehicles, in particular, buses. I visited a number of bus depots - Dublin Bus on the northside in Broadstone, Go-Ahead and a number of the different sites and different providers. There are a number of wonderful young apprentices, male and female, getting togged out and stuck in. They keep the wheels moving, literally. It is great to see it. We have other new apprenticeships on the way in the social work field, social care, planning and occupational therapy, as well as in things like cybersecurity, AI and digital marketing. The number of apprenticeships is far broader and wider than any of us might have ever imagined. Far from being the poor relation, it is at the stage now where it is nearly getting the edge as an option.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to comment on something the Minister said a minute ago. I thought in the week that was in it, in hurling parlance, it would be more Cill Dara abú than Loch Garman abú - for this week anyway, if nothing else.

I am delighted to be here.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It is down to the two of them in hurling. I never thought I would have that problem.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is probably a little-known fact that by qualification I am a teacher, albeit my 30th anniversary of walking out of the classroom and never going back was last week. It was the end of term 1995. However, I have stayed actively involved and I am delighted to be on this committee. I am chair of the board of management of a secondary school with 600 pupils and a former chair of Longford Westmeath ETB. I have kept in touch with the sector, albeit my life took a turn that took me away from it as a profession.

I apologise. I was at the same meeting as Deputy Smith, so I might have missed some of stuff at the start. I will not go into a lot of detail here. I know we will be back on specific issues ongoing.

I wish the Minister the best of luck in his role and congratulate him on his appointment.

As the Minister is aware, I was elected to the agricultural panel so I specialise in agriculture. I will put that hat on here for a minute and bring in what is the forgotten higher education sector, namely, agricultural colleges. It is a third-level qualification. Could the Minister comment on his role? Sometimes it falls between the cracks because once agriculture is mentioned, people go to Agriculture House or Teagasc. It is higher education and it is a third-level qualification. I know the Minister has a role to play. Could he elaborate on his role? It is something I will raise with him in more specific detail.

The next issue is a bugbear of mine. In his opening statement, the Minister talks about his engagement with students on reducing costs. I have met a lot of third-level students over the past couple of years. One meets them during the week and they say "Oh no college today", "Oh no I've only one lecture today" or "Oh no I've nothing today. I had one lecture yesterday. I've one tomorrow". I know there would be a lot of logistical changes in terms of the timetable and staffing but the Minister would be some hero if he could reduce the costs for some families by 25% in fell swoop. I have no doubt based on the timetables students have shared with me that there are four-year courses that could easily be done in three years without burdening anybody and without burnout or putting pressure on students. This would be a 25% reduction in the cost of accommodation and the students could be in the workforce one year earlier. This is something that needs to be looked seriously with the institutions. I get the issues about timetabling and staffing that would probably be raised as reasons it could not be done. It would not work with every course. I know there are courses where there are not enough hours in the day but from what I am hearing, there are a lot of courses that could be done in three years that are taking four.

The other thing I always think third-level institutions could do to help with the accommodation issue involves dedicated organised transport with the private sector. They could sit down and draw up a plan on where students are. Fifty miles in the morning does not compare to what students pay in rent. A circle or radius should be done along with a dedicated plan to see how it would work. It should at least be trialled. I am in Westmeath. Athlone is unique in that one could do a 20-km circle around it and have almost half the country covered. I know it might not work in the same way with places in extremities. I will leave it at that because it is the Minister I want to hear today not myself.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know about the Senator's former career but I know he is a man of many talents and has a great interest in agriculture. I agree with him that there are great opportunities in agricultural colleges. I am thinking of Kildalton. The veterinary courses we are rolling out in ATU and SETU will utilise them - hopefully, to their fullest. I am meeting with representatives from SETU today and have visited ATU previously. I am really keen that these veterinary courses get rolled out. September 2026 is the target. They should take full advantage of agricultural colleges, some of which are in my constituency. Usage of them could really be optimised. There are courses across agriculture. My daughter is an agricultural science student. She is in UCD studying the equine science aspect of it and I see that every day. It is a very practical course. UCD Lyons Farm is up the road from me in Kildare. There are colleges, farms and centres of excellence around the country that could usefully be deployed. Teagasc probably has a greater role than I do. It probably comes under the remit of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I will engage with the Minister on some of the synergies where we can work together and look at what further leverage we can get. In many ways, it is about taking the assets and the real estate we have in terms of the different portfolios of agricultural colleges around the country and seeing how we can put them to work for students and the educational landscape.

Regarding the situation of one lecture per day, I have also seen that in student timetables. I have had discussions with some of the colleges on that. The Senator very sensibly raised the possibility of compressing courses. If there is one lecture at 11 a.m. on Friday, an awful lot of students, particularly in today's world, will say "I'm going to go to work. I'm not going to be a day's pay down for the sake of one lecture". They will say that they are not going to commute to Dublin, Limerick or wherever the case may be so there is a low attendance rate for those lectures. Yes, remote learning could be used. This is something we have all got used to in recent years. However, even if remote learning is extremely useful to enable people to participate who might otherwise struggle because of care duties or family commitments, ultimately, we want social interaction. We want people go into colleges and benefit from that engagement and student experience. Maybe timetabling could be done in a way that avoids those situations where there is an orphaned class at the end of the week. There is also a need for time to reflect, absorb, have conversations outside class and got to the library. I hear what the Senator is saying and it will be part of my conversations with the different colleges. There are a number of courses that would not prepared to do so but from my review of courses, there are some, particularly Master's area, where two years could become one year or 18 months so that is something to look at.

Regarding transport, a technological university pilot project is under way with €500,000 funding committed by my Department. The aim is to see whether we can match student journeys to transport provision to see whether buses could be run. The Senator mentioned Athlone. Perhaps it could go from the train station up to the college. There are different things we could look at doing. I know some colleges already do it. A number of private buses serve Maynooth University for the surrounding areas. There are buses to UCD from the commuter belt as well so there are already a number of private sector providers getting into that space but it is certainly something we are proactively exploring, particularly with the technological universities of which TUS Athlone would be one, and we will continue to look at that.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I have questions on a number of issues. First is the contract for adult education tutors. There is a lot of concern about this across the country. I spoke to tutors last September in Cavan-Monaghan and a number of other ETBs who did not get any hours, though that was not across the country. There seemed to be a funding issue. I think it was somehow related to SOLAS. Even when the funding was restored, this new contract meant their hours were much reduced. One tutor told me last year she had 20 classes between January and June; this year she had three. She, like many tutors, is on the point of leaving the service because it is not paying them to stay. Conditions have changed and there is uncertainty over salaries and hours. Will the Minister engage with the TUI, which is the union representing this sector, to ensure we have a proper adult education sector? It is important for literacy, marginalised groups, providing ongoing progression in courses or careers and even integration and social inclusion.

It is really important on an island of this size that we have North-South co-operation. We need measures to address the differences in application processes. UCAS offers could come out as early as May or June - obviously, they are results dependent - and then it could be August or September before the CAO makes its offers. Could we have a more joined-up system where results-dependent offers are made simultaneously, there is a smoother points conversion between A-levels and the leaving certificate, and students from all parts of the island are knowledgeable about courses available North and South?

The SUSI grant has an implication for people in the North and South regarding residency. Are there plans to review and reform the SUSI grant system? It can act as a barrier to some students' access to education. Mature students who, because of the housing crisis, are forced to go back to live with their parents find they are penalised by being means-tested on their parents' income. Could the level of income a student can earn be increased to ensure they can work while accessing the grant?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. She raised a number of important issues. In terms of industrial relations issues and the grade of adult educator, I am pretty supportive of that. The role was established through the industrial relations framework following engagements between ETBs and employers and workers. They engaged extensively and it was back and forth in the Labour Court. The grade was then established. I attended the TUI conference at Easter, engaged with delegates and registered my support for that. That is real progress. It is optional, which is important. Workers are not obliged to sign up to it if they do not want to, but the structure has been put in place. The grade exists, has been approved through the industrial relations mechanisms and is there for them should they wish to avail of it.

On North-South issues, I have been North a couple of times during my ministry. I met the Minister, Caoimhe Archibald, my opposite number, when I visited the North. We had a very good conversation. There is two-way traffic with students going in both directions. There was a striking issue with northern students coming South. When I was in university, it was very common. There were multiple students from the North attending. That fell away in recent years a little bit. One of the reasons is the anomaly that a student doing three A-levels had a maximum equivalent of 570 points. Some courses that were traditionally attractive to students from the North, like law and medicine, are often higher than that. Even with their best efforts and scoring the maximum on their system, they could not get the points to avail of such courses in the South. That is being addressed. There is an optional extra exam that students from the North can take to accompany the A-levels. They sit it a year earlier. By sitting it, they get a bonus points mechanism which they plug onto their A-level subjects. Combined, that gives the equivalent of maximum points in the leaving certificate. That is coming into place from this year, I understand. That is a positive and should assist in this regard.

There are issues in the North with the cap. The number of students that the Northern Ireland Executive will fund is limited. It is not my place to comment but it does create difficulties for students in the system there. Some students are leaving the North to study elsewhere because of it, which is a pity. We have a number of students attending northern institutions, including Queen's and Ulster University. I visited Queen's and met with students in medicine and nursing courses. We have students in Ulster University and have pledged €44 million to the university's Magee Campus. It is a significant shared island project and a significant funding commitment we have given, and we will see it through.

I agree on SUSI grant reform. Every year my Department does extensive engagement on a cost of education exercise. I held a conference in Croke Park about a month ago to which I invited student bodies, educators, access officers, colleges and people representing disadvantaged communities to attend and engage with me and my team on that. We had good discussions over the course of the day. I intend to publish a cost of education options paper this summer. There are choices. Nothing is consequence-free. For every measure we take, there is some other section that may be disadvantaged as a result. I have an overriding mantra of fairness and I believe that those who need more assistance get more assistance. There has to be a corollary that those who need less assistance receive less. I cannot be everything to everybody. That would not be a fair or progressive system. It is reasonable and appropriate to give more to those who need more. That is a fundamental principle of social policy. All those options will be enumerated in the options paper I will publish this summer. Then we can have a wider debate across the system on where that goes next.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá rud amháin ann nár luaigh muid ar bith. Bhí mé as an gcruinniú ar feadh píosa but I am not sure if anyone raised the issue of the Irish language and opportunities for students who wish to pursue third level education through that language. We had a very interesting meeting yesterday with Roinn na Gaeltachta in the comhchoiste Gaeilge. We know that 20% of the public sector workforce must have a level of Irish such that they can provide a service to the public through Irish by 2030.

We are currently at approximately 4%. There must be somewhere in the third level sector that has to play a part to facilitate the needs of meeting that target of 20%. The Minister may be familiar with this because I think that the University of Maynooth has some role to play in the European languages framework, TEG, through which the levels are assessed in Irish. Anybody who is participating in a course to meet that requirement should spend some time in the Gaeltacht. A person cannot be adequately prepared to facilitate public services through Irish without having lived in the Gaeltacht and sampled life there for some time. I ask that the University of Maynooth look at that.

The last thing I want to mention is the further education sector, which I have discussed with the Minister previously. There is movement on the new college in Galway, which is very welcome. I would not be doing them justice, though, if I did not reflect that they have expressed to me some frustration in getting through the financial process to allow them to proceed to the design stage of the project. I am not sure if that is the responsibility of the Minister's Department or of the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. This highlights how we are placing more priority on the price of projects than the value and I think we need to look at that.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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This is an important topic - an Teachta Ó Súilleabháin touched on it earlier - and there is funding for it. There is an annual fund of €900,000 to support greater use of Irish by students and staff, not necessarily in terms of the educational provision but among themselves, in their day-to-day activities in the staffroom, etc. There is also the €1.8 million given to Acadamh na hOllscoilaíochta Gaeilge in the University of Galway, which is for the provision of higher education through the medium of Irish. This is a really important fund. There is also the gníomhaí Gaeilge initiative which provides a fund of €200,000, to develop Irish language skills through Irish-language clubs, societies, in partnership with the USI and Conradh na Gaeilge. This is less by means of formal education and more of an immersion culture, which Conradh na Gaeilge and Gaelchultúr would advocate for. It is Irish-language activities on campus. It is an important issue. I note what the Deputy has said about the Gaeltacht. Having spent a little bit of time in the Gaeltacht, I know that there is no substitute for the immersion one gets there. We all have some Irish from the education system but sometimes it is suppressed or latent. Having the Gaeltacht experience allows it to emerge again; I agree with the Deputy on that point.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I want to raise some queries from an institutional perspective. I know the Minister has been having great engagement around the country with the various stakeholders. I was delighted to welcome the Minister to Limerick and for us to visit the hospitality campus at the ETB centre in Roxborough and the University of Limerick for the launch of its immersive bioscience course. On both occasions, the Minister had an opportunity to engage with the leaders, Bernadette Enright and Paul Patton at the ETB, and at the University of Limerick, acting president, Professor Shane Kilcommins, and the executive committee. I want to reflect back to the Minister some of the common themes that came up on those engagements and that have come to me from councillors throughout the country. There are concerns at ETBs, universities and TUs around multi-annual funding and the challenges in planning on an annual basis and the desire to move, where possible, to multi-annual funding. This would give educational institutions more certainty regarding the courses they run and the staff they are able engage.

From the TU perspective, the matter of TU borrowing is coming up not just in Limerick but around the country. I know the Minister is putting great focus on the TUs and has work done on the TU professorships but this aspect of borrowing is coming up repeatedly. I would like to hear the Minister's thoughts on those points.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator for hosting me at those Limerick institutions. They were very productive visits and spanned quite well the entire spectrum, from the hospitality education at the Roxborough ETB right through to immersive bioscience degree, a very commericalised, high-end research piece. Regarding multi-annual funding, there are a couple of ways I can answer this question. My Department receives annual funding from the Department of public expenditure so we are in the annual cycle ourselves. However, there are a number of programmes which I would tend to frame on a multi-annual basis. The new research initiative I spoke about earlier, which is akin to the old programme for research in third level institutions, PRTLI, will be a competitive research fund across the State. The intention is for that to be a multi-annual fund. It is still a work in progress but it is not envisaged as something that would be drawn down every year, rather, it would span a couple of years, in line with the national development plan. There is also the National Training Fund, NTF. I spoke earlier about how I am bringing legislation through the Dáil at the earliest opportunity to unlock this fund. There will be a commitment of an additional €150 million per annum for the higher education institutions. This is repeated spending that will be available every year. I hope that is of some assistance and comfort.

Regarding the TU professorships, I am working on this and I hope to have it before Cabinet before the summer recess. There is a bit more to go on the TU borrowing issue because there are different levels of maturity or readiness in different institutions. Whether they all jump together or not has to be considered as well. We will come back to that.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to the issue of accommodation for a moment. The Shannon College of Hotel Management is world-renowned. Students there are having issues with their accommodation. The college takes in many international students. It had accommodation but that seems to have disappeared and students are now scrambling to get alternatives. Perhaps the Minister could meet representatives of the college to discuss the issue.

On the stipends, even though the money has increased, which is welcome, another issue is the lack of access to services such as medical cards. There is also the issue of international students trying to bring their families over. They are not on a working visa and that is causing issues for them. It is not just about the money.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I am not familiar with the situation in Shannon but I am quite happy to look into it if the Deputy sends me a note on it. If she does the same on the other point, I will get back to her in some detail.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I want to come back to a point about the adult education contract, which I raised previously with the Minister. I do not believe the Minister took on board the point I was making. This contract is not working. It is causing a lot of stress and unhappiness among tutors across the country and many of them are considering leaving the adult education sector. This is a really important sector but funding and classes are being cut. I do not know if this is related to the contract. The contract is generating uncertainty. There is uncertainty on working conditions, inconsistency in salary calculations and a lot of other issues. The people involved need clarity and they need these issues to be sorted out. They need assurance that there will be sufficient funding to provide the classes on an ongoing basis. Does the Minister know why there has been a cut in funding and the provision of classes?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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There have been no cuts to funding on my watch. However, there are localised situations. The ETBs are the employers and they have local engagement with their staff and there are different arrangements. When I attended the TUI conference, the sense I took from people on the floor and the executive was that there was a broad welcome for the adult educator grade being established. I note that I got a round of applause from the floor when I mentioned my commitment to it. I left the conference with the impression that the TUI was pleased to have the adult educator grade established. It had gone through the industrial relations mechanisms and this was the output and the TUI was happy to endorse it. That was my understanding from the conference and from my engagement with the TUI before and after. There will always be groups that are somewhat unhappy with different outcomes. I do not know enough of the details to start commenting on what groups may or may not be on board with this. I am in ongoing discussions with the trade unions in the sector, such as IFUT, SIPTU and Fórsa. It is not really my role as Minister to get involved in the details of that because we have to respect the industrial relations mechanisms of the State which are there for that purpose. It can actually be unhelpful if a Minister starts getting involved. It can be detrimental to the outcomes. I note the issue and I am working with the unions. My understanding is that, in the round, a majority welcome the new grade but I appreciate there may be some who still have issues.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I would like some clarity on the reform to SUSI and the income disregard while students are working. Students can earn up to €8,424, which in today's terms does not match what students have to do.

Students have to work more and work longer hours just to stay studying. On Senator Daly's point, I welcome the €500,000 in funding for the bus route. Is it just a pilot programme?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, exactly.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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We have students for whom a 50-mile one-way trip is not an issue in rural north Kerry where they are attending MTU. The sad reality, though, is that one of the private bus operators turned 70 last week and he can no longer drive that bus. I hope we can work with whatever Department it is to ensure these people over 70 can be allowed to continue. Again, I know it is not the Minister's Department. If this bus route were to stop and prevent kids from attending the college, then there will be an issue that we could have sorted out beforehand.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I hear what the Senator is saying. On the income disregard, my view is we should continue to revise it. It has progressed upwards in recent years. One thing it is useful to state at this point is that whatever I do, whatever I am guided to do in the context of the cost of education and consultation, is for next year because the budget for this year is already set. What is going to happen in September was decided last year by the then Minister and Government. I am the new Minister coming into the Department, so I can make changes and engage but it will be delivered through the budgetary process this October for the following September. This is the type of timeframe we are working off.

Regarding the buses, it is a bit like the driving test and other aspects mentioned earlier. It is not my brief but it used to be, so I know a little bit about it. There is great frustration about this issue around the country. There are regulatory views that there is a certain medical point at which people are perhaps no longer encouraged to drive buses commercially and the age of 70 was set as this point. I am not a doctor, so I am not going to get into a discussion today about whether this is right or wrong. I am, though, aware there are frustrations in this regard. Equally, there may be arguments to be made that there are differences between operating a bus multiple times a day over the course of a working week and then using one occasionally for perhaps sporting activities at the weekend or something like that. They have different demands. Again, however, as it is not my Department any more, I had better not get into the details of that massive brief.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Jen Cummins.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I welcome the Minister. I wish him and his team the best of luck.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Cummins.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I have a few things to raise. Mentioned several times were special education needs, the therapies that are going to go into schools and increasing the number of places for SLT, OT and other therapies. Is this going to happen for this year, and, if so, how many new places will there be and where will they be?

On the topic of adult educators, I was working on a school completion programme in Ballymun but I was based in an adult education service building. We had many things in that the building, including Youthreach. It is a great facility. Those educators, however, are worried about their contracts. As has been mentioned several times, are there a number of ETBs who have not yet fulfilled what they are supposed to be doing in terms of industrial relations? Does the Minister have powers or is he able to do anything to ensure every person who is supposed to get such a contract gets one and gets it fully?

Turning to community training centres, these used to be funded by FÁS and the pay scales were under the remit of that organisation. After FÁS closed, those community training centres moved to the ETB systems. The pay scales have not transferred over, so there is a two-tier system of Youthreach co-ordinators, community training centre managers and all the related staff not being on the same level. Is this issue on the Minister's radar and if it is, whether a plan is in place to rectify the issue?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. Regarding the disability courses, I can get her a note on the detail. To give some broad-brush details, nine different disciplines were identified in consultations with the Minister for Health, the Minister for education, and the Minister for disabilities as the priority areas to be front-loaded into the new provision. These included occupational therapy, physiotherapy, speech and language therapy, educational psychologists, dieticians and a few other related disciplines but they were primarily in the therapy and healthcare spaces. The proposal I brought to the Cabinet yesterday, and that was approved, is to increase the provision of these disciplines for this September. I asked the HEA to seek formal expressions of interest and engage with the colleges to determine who was in a position to ramp up quickly and add capacity to the system for this September.

A number of institutions of different types and from right across the country, including the TUs, the universities and a number of different institutions, responded. I thank them for their engagement and rapid response. The majority of these courses, with some 320 places, will start this September, with a further 141 places to follow the September after. The 320 places will repeat and will be there every year from now on, but an additional 141 places will also be coming on stream the following September. Additionally, I wish to engage with further education providers and examine apprenticeship routes. We have a concept called RPL, recognition of prior learning, where we accept that people who have previous relevant experience may be able to bring that to bear. There may be some kind of accelerated graduate entry programme recognising such previous relevant experience for those people. We can get the Deputy a note on these details as well.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Turning to the ETBs, it is regrettable that not all ETBs have complied with national agreements. It is extremely regrettable and I have made this clear. There is a limit, though, in terms of the powers I can exercise in terms of compelling conformance, but it is extremely regrettable and I hope this is noted by the ETBs that have not done so to date. We will have to keep an eye on the situation and perhaps revisit what powers may be available if they do not get on board because national agreements are intended to be observed by all who were a party to them. My officials are continuing to engage with the ETBs on that basis.

I think the other question from the Deputy was on adult educators.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I had a query concerning the community training centres.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. It is a complex area and one I know the Deputy knows very well. Within the further education estate, we have several different historical paths into that area. It is, therefore, quite a complex tapestry. I am learning myself about the different moving parts within it. Different aspects have come through different trajectories to get there, so there can sometimes be a degree of misalignment between grades and roles. It is challenging to align them. This also happens in the technological universities in the context of merging some of the components. It is an issue I am aware of. I will continue to try to understand it further and see what actions can be taken to help synchronise the different elements. This goes back to some of the questions earlier concerning the grades and industrial relations issues too.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes our question-and-answer session. We are very grateful to the Minister for attending and engaging with us all.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the committee very much.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The title of the Minister's Department illustrates the diversity of the issues and the priorities we have for the Department. We look forward to continuing this engagement on specific issues in the Minister's brief. I thank the Minister again. We are now going into private session.