James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)

Yes. Indeed, the programme for Government commits to parity of esteem across different aspects of the TUs, including very much MTU. I will visit very soon.

The point the Senator made on wages for apprentices is a difficult one. The Senator, quite legitimately, said that he would like student apprentices to be paid a higher wage. Recently I was in a room with employers who said that the cost of taking on apprentices has increased with the cost of living, overheads, etc. That is the balancing act because ultimately apprenticeships are employer facilitators. If an employer does not take on an apprentice, an apprenticeship does not exist. An apprenticeship must be something that works for both sides. The argument has been made that when apprentices are in their early years - typically, year 1 and sometimes into year 2 - they very much train and learn, and the rate that a qualified professional will attract on completion of an apprenticeship is probably not the rate that is commensurate with their skill level at that stage when they are just starting off. The typical pay for an entry-level apprentice in year 1 and starting out is about one third of the going rate for the discipline but pay raises to 90% or more by year 4 although sometimes it is 50%. A training rate is paid in the early stages but it increases as the apprentice moves towards graduation, which is logical as their skill set is improving. Successfully completing their training will make them more attractive to employers. When apprentices qualify, they will earn the full rate of pay. That is how things have worked to date but I am open to suggestions. I reiterate that if employers do not provide openings for apprentices, they will not exist at all so we must strike the right balance.

On an income disregard for students who work part-time, I hear what the Senator has said. It is an aspect that we touched on during the Seanad debate. It is something I am keen to tackle.

On student contribution fees, abolishing them would go a lot further than the commitment given in the programme for Government. I hear what the Senator is saying. Let us see where we get to on that over the lifetime of the Government.