Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I welcome our witnesses, Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh and Ms Rebecca Keatinge.

Apologies have been received from Deputy Stanton, who might be a few minutes late. We have received apologies from Senators Joe O'Reilly and O'Hara.

I remind members that they must be physically present on the grounds of Leinster House to take part in a meeting of the committee. I will not allow members to take part in the meeting if they are not in Leinster House. The evidence of witnesses physically present in Leinster House is protected by absolute privilege but they should not criticise or make charges against any person by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I propose that we publish the opening statements from our witnesses on our website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I suggest that witnesses speak for five to ten minutes and we will then allow members to ask questions or make comments for around five minutes and members may speak more than once. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Our topic this morning is accommodation and law. I welcome Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh and Ms Rebecca Keatinge from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. I was thinking this morning how much we have talked about accommodation and law when it comes to the Traveller community. We would very much appreciate any recommendations or suggestions our guests have for the committee. We will start with Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

It is lovely to be here with the committee this morning. I welcome my colleague from IHREC, Rebecca Keatinge. Under the reasonable accommodation Act, because of my speech impediment I ask the Chair to give me the comfort of a bit of extra time. There may be moments when I might ask Ms Keatinge to take over when my voice goes up and down if that is okay.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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That is absolutely perfect.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

I am here representing IHREC. Within IHREC I am chair of the disability advisory group. IHREC has responsibility for monitoring and implementing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. When I was invited in, I wanted to see how I could merge the issue of Traveller accommodation and the rights of Travellers with impairments. Accommodation and disability in the context of Traveller identity have been very difficult. Lots of disabled children and adults are under severe physical pressure on top of their impairment. I will focus later on evictions and how that has affected not just family but how children with early childhood arthritis, respiratory pneumonia and bronchitis being evicted in such a manner adds to the trauma.

I have lived my entire life in a trailer in Sligo, Galway, Tullamore and other parts of the country. In my middle years, I still need to get support in light of what happened to me in one eviction. I am just telling the committee before I get into the nuts and bolts. As a commissioner, I feel bailiffs or anyone else who takes part in evictions of a settled person or a Traveller are just being morally wrong. They are morally wrong to evict someone from their home. That is where I am at.

I ask Ms Keatinge to speak and I will come back in in a while.

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

As Dr. McDonagh has said, the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities ensures the rights of disabled people, including Travellers. There are key articles relevant to Traveller accommodation including the right to self-determination, empowering disabled Travellers to make decisions about their housing under Article 1. Article 6 addresses the impacts of sexism and ableism on women and girls with disabilities, necessitating gender-sensitive housing policies. Article 7 ensures that children with disabilities have full rights, including suitable accommodation. Article 9 mandates accessibility in all areas of life, including Traveller sites and housing. Article 13 focuses on equal access to justice, enabling disabled Travellers to advocate for their housing rights. Article 33 establishes independent mechanisms to monitor and improve laws, policies and services for disabled people, including Travellers.

Travellers experience respiratory health and chronic health conditions because of damp, overcrowded, poor-quality accommodation, some of which were mentioned. These include pneumonia; cystic fibrosis; muscular dystrophy; chronic asthma; childhood arthritis; cerebral palsy; spina bifida; scoliosis; Hurler syndrome; brittle bone disease; neurodiversity and autoimmune illnesses; and all forms of autism.

This morning, I will focus mainly on the right to culturally appropriate Traveller accommodation. The State is failing abysmally to provide adequate culturally appropriate accommodation for the Traveller community. We make up only 1% of the Ireland’s overall population, but the data indicates that we make up 20% of the homeless population.

Travellers also have significantly higher rates of disability than the general population, with almost one in five Travellers recorded as having a disability in census 2016. This has extensive implications with regard to accessibility issues arising in the provision of Traveller accommodation. Homeless services and agencies do not collect robust data on Travellers and on hidden homelessness in particular, so these stats do not include the numbers of Travellers who are in overcrowded accommodation, sleeping rough or doubling up in bays.

We should all be shocked at those statistics. They are stark evidence of the persistent systemic structural racism, racism and inequality experienced by the Traveller community in Ireland in their access to accommodation. However, we are not surprised because despite some encouraging developments, which include the excellent work of this committee, the State’s failure to advance structural reform in the delivery of Traveller accommodation means that any progress previously made is stagnating. Crucially, the required policy, legislative and oversight frameworks that we and others have repeatedly recommended are still not in place as this Government is likely in the final months of its term. In addition, despite the State signing up to the UNCRPD, which says that disabled people have the right to live independently in a place of their choosing, there is a huge data gap on the significant experiences of disabled Travellers accessing culturally appropriate accommodation.

Over the years, we at the commission have used many avenues to raise issues about Traveller accommodation and increase the pressure on the State to take relevant action. As well as the recommendations in our international reporting, policy statements and our recent submission on the Planning and Development Bill 2023, we have also undertaken an analysis of the provision of Traveller accommodation services in Ireland through our equality review and equality action plan processes.

Taking account of all our previous work to date, I wish to highlight some of the major issues the Traveller community is grappling with. First, the development and delivery of culturally appropriate Traveller accommodation is stagnant. It is badly hampered by issues such as a lack of proper planning and obstacles in the planning process. The ability of the State to provide accommodation is hindered by the lack of cohesion in the policy framework. There is still no single body with authority for oversight and delivery on Traveller accommodation, nor is there any alignment between the various strategies and development plans. We also know that many of the recommendations of the Traveller accommodation expert review group have yet to be fully implemented. In addition, crucially, that effective data collection and the establishment of that single authority - a national Traveller accommodation authority - are yet to be implemented. Unfortunately, the Planning and Development Bill 2023 does not address issues with evictions procedures or provide for changes to the planning process to enable speedier and easier delivery of Traveller accommodation. Travellers often feel that they will not be able to secure Traveller-specific accommodation such as group housing and transient or permanent halting sites due to its limited availability, and the scarcity of accommodation can put pressure on Travellers to apply for standard social housing and, in some cases, accept offers of unsuitable accommodation. Despite the commission repeatedly raising these issues in our international reporting and policy statements and through our legal work, local authority action is just not happening at the necessary pace required.

The commission is also concerned that there are no statutory minimum standards relating to halting site accommodation, whether temporary, permanent or transient, and children are amassing physical and mental health issues as well as educational difficulties, which may affect them for life. As disabled Traveller children encounter intersecting barriers, the commission has previously highlighted the disproportionate impact on disabled children, including Traveller children, who live in overcrowded accommodation and are often without access to technology or living space.

On evictions, little is being done to mitigate the unique impact evictions have on Traveller families. The State is still failing to adopt legislative measures to prevent evictions being carried out in practice without the necessary safeguards. Through our legal casework, on which I, as a solicitor with the legal department, can speak further, we have highlighted the failure of local authorities to properly and proportionately assess the rights of a Traveller family before invoking planning laws to evict them from a site. This is compounded by the fact that the provisions of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 governing trespass indirectly discriminate against Travellers by criminalising an intrinsic way of life of this group.

In conclusion, we at the commission ask that the State, which includes committee members as legislators, urgently prioritise rights-based legislation and policy reform that can underpin sustainable progress in the delivery of Traveller accommodation, especially in the areas of planning and delivery, funding, meaningful and constructive engagement with Travellers, addressing evictions and the introduction of statutory minimum standards for all halting sites. In a submission to this committee in December 2023, Pavee Point Traveller and Roma Centre recommended security of tenure, that is, good decent accommodation as a linchpin or prerequisite to exercising other rights.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

I thank Ms Keatinge.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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We will open it up to members. That was very interesting, especially around evictions.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We on this side of the table in this committee know what, in our view, needs to be done, and we set that out in our report. I refer to direct political action. We need to provide the accommodation. The vast majority of it will have to be provided by local authorities on behalf of the State.

There are enough recommendations on Travellers to fill Leinster House. I am not really that interested in more recommendations or reports because we have gone down that route many times. Other than making recommendations, what instruments of actual action does the IHREC have to force the hand of Government if it feels it is not complying with even the existing law?

How many of the barriers to suitable accommodation that Travellers face are also part of a wider problem we face as a society, namely, our inability to provide enough accommodation for our population, settled or Traveller? We have brought so many constraints in on planning, which was touched on, and on getting things done, and so many ways for people to obstruct the provision of necessary housing.

Finally, on the issue of the kind of housing that suits Travellers best, I think we all agree it is a matter for Travellers themselves. I always respect the choice of the Traveller family or individual. Some choose standard housing. In my experience, many of the younger families in particular choose that. I know that in one case, they were all given a free choice and, within families, there was an intergenerational difference in their choices. I think we have to respect that. That seems to be in three broad sections. One is people living in standard housing on standard estates. Sometimes they want to live in close proximity to other Travellers and sometimes they do not. I was talking to a Traveller recently and we were filling out a form to stay on the housing list.

There was a box that asked whether you are a member of the Traveller community. This person knows that I know he is but he said he never put it down because he did not want to be labelled in that way. That was his choice. I was surprised but it was his choice. When it comes to housing, some want to fully integrate and some do not. That is within standard housing. In my experience, some want to live in fixed accommodation specially built in culturally appropriate settings, as they are defined. This would still be in the form of a permanent dwelling as opposed to a trailer or whatever. Some also want to live in trailers. We have to respect all of those choices and be non-directional as to which is better because it is an individual choice. We accept that. Sometimes we accept with the settled community that some want to live in rural houses and some do not. I very much resist the State's efforts to put us all into high-density areas away from our communities.

If we are talking about standard housing, I expect the same provision for people with disabilities as is provided for the settled community and I normally get it. However, anybody on a Traveller halting site looking for those same basic rights would not get them on the halting sites I know. They simply would not get accommodation suitable for people with disabilities, particularly physical disabilities. Those are my questions. I am sorry for putting so many of them.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

I will just give a short response and then Ms Keatinge might follow on. On the current housing crisis, Travellers have always had an issue regarding their want and need for Traveller-specific accommodation. It has been going on for at least 40 years. I do not accept that it is a new phenomenon for Travellers.

On the Deputy's second issue, which was about choice, I respect his opinion but, from the inside, as someone who lives the reality of racism every day, I would say that there is a very close link between choice and coercion. They have a list of two bad choices. If you are living with no water, no toilet, no heat and no refuse collection, your choices are very limited. I would also add that, in my experience, those of us who are in families where somebody, an adult or a child, has a disability have been offered completely inappropriate accommodation. I have known families who have to lift their adult children upstairs. The Deputy and I both know that very few settled people have to put up with that but that is what is offered to Travellers.

I appreciate all of the work Deputy Ó Cuív has done and all the solidarity he has shown over the years but it is sometimes very hard to match his side with my side, if that makes sense. I hope we can both respect our different points of view and our differences about where and how we live.

I might let Ms Keatinge take over. No, there were two other things. In the equality reviews that IHREC did into local authorities, it was not a surprise to me, although it was to the commission, to see the arrogance, the delays and the disrespect. The details of those reviews speak for themselves. We gave the local authorities every opportunity to pull up their socks. We gave them more time and we encouraged them. However, some showed total disregard for the work we were doing and for the issue of Traveller human rights. Does Ms Keatinge want to take over?

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

I thank Dr. McDonagh and I thank the Deputy. I will address each of those points in turn. I obviously agree with Dr. McDonagh's comments. In respect of reports, the Traveller community itself always says that there are a great many reports. The recommendations of each of these reports are really consistently aligned. The commission itself has repeatedly made the same policy statements and recommendations in its own international reporting. It is obviously draining for the community itself to have to repeatedly come before policymakers and say what they want despite there being no follow-through action. There is a real urgency to this. In our day-to-day work, we see the impact on the community of the deplorable conditions, the impact on children and the trauma experienced. However, I do not want this to be a hopeless message because, as legislators, the committee members have a really important role in keeping that energy going, in pushing the recommendations and in championing the voice of Travellers.

Looking at the report itself, I am struck by four key recommendations. Three are related to the legislative structures. It is these very difficult recommendations that have not been progressed. They are in the area of planning. The committee will have received our submission on the planning Bill. They are also on the need for a single authority to co-ordinate and drive action in this area and the crucial work on the trespass legislation, an ongoing concern and issue for a number of years. On the issue of the audit of living conditions, everyone here is familiar with the conditions on sites and the action that should follow from such an audit. There is an accountability there to follow through on those recommendations and see that action is taken.

On our own work, I am in the legal team and we do a great deal of work to ensure that local authorities and State parties comply with their existing obligations. There are issues with compliance but we are proud to bring those cases forward to try to bring about improvements for our clients.

The wider context is obviously relevant but these issues have been going on for many years. It is not just a resource issue but an issue of political will. There has been a failure to bring about the structural changes that are needed. While it is an important context, I refer to the Deputy to the equality action plans, the accounts of which the commission will publish in the coming weeks. They really drill down into some of the nitty-gritty issues that affect the delivery of Traveller accommodation and services. They show just how niche and specific the issues can be and that they can be addressed without very substantive resource commitments.

On preference, I second what Dr. McDonagh said. Of course, people have to make a free choice but this choice is made within a historical context and in the here and now. We repeatedly engage with clients who are looking at their options. They are looking at their parents and seeing that they have been waiting 20 years for a new halting site to be built but that it still has not happened. If you are making a choice within that context, you have to consider the factors that are influencing that choice.

We work with families that are bringing up their children, who are now nearly reared, who are getting married, and they are looking at the new generation whose choices are inevitably influenced by the experiences of their parents. It is a case of looking at the context of those decisions that are made.

Deputy Ó Cuív makes an interesting point about the ethnicity data. That is one issue we looked at in the equality action plans because, on the recommendation of this committee and the expert report on Travellers, there is an ethnic identifier now in the social housing application form. There is mixed use of the data across the seven local authorities that have completed the plans. Speaking with Traveller groups when preparing the accounts of these plans, many of them noted the sensitive nature of that data collection and that there needs to be a considered process for collecting it. Those are some of the issues that came up in the equality action plan that links in there with some of our work.

Finally, on the standards, it comes across with the caravan loan scheme, which I know is something this committee has looked at, when you compare the comparable position of an individual on the social housing list, whether a Traveller or non-Traveller, if a person is allocated social housing and given a bricks-and-mortar house, it may be fixed up so it is suitable for a child with a disability, for example, but someone who is allocated a bay may have no caravan there, and they have to go through all that to try to get a loan to get a caravan. The parallel position is quite stark when we look at it in that context.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

If I can, Chair, I will make a few further comments please. One is about the connection between housing and suicide. I do not want to get personal or emotional, but in my family we know of young people who were moved into houses that were lovely but within six months they were found hanging on a tree outside the back of the house. We live with that reality every day, knowing that we could have found them homes on the site, but there was no room on the site.

The other thing I would say is that the current report shows failings in categories, in particular around gender and Travellers with a disability. This means they are further marginalised. They have been pushed out of every report, document and piece of research. We are worn out just trying to survive. Thank you, Chair.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I thank Dr. McDonagh.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it correct to say that, in general, the IHREC takes law cases if there is discrimination or an infringement of the law in regard to the various characteristics? Could Ms Keatinge tell us how many cases are on hand at the moment in relation to discrimination in accommodation or otherwise, where being a Traveller is an element, even if that is not the main facet of the case being taken?

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

I am happy to give some of the general themes of our casework at the moment. I might divide it into two parts - the housing and then the equality work. We are doing a significant volume of equality work, which often relates to Travellers, and focusing predominantly on the Intoxicating Liquor Act and access to pubs and restaurants, licensed premises essentially, where people have booked a communion or wedding and then at the last minute the booking is cancelled or they are not permitted to go to a pub or a nightclub. We are taking a number of such cases.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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How many? Is it more than 100 cases?

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

I am hesitant to put a figure on it but I would say we have about 20 running at the moment. We focused on that as a priority because, as the Deputy is aware, those cases do not go to the Workplace Relations Commission and that is a significant barrier to Travellers bringing these cases themselves. They must go to the District Court and that has procedural complexities. Essentially, it is difficult to pursue them without legal input, and there is a distinct lack of legal support. There is no legal aid in this area. That is one thing that we set out in our list of observations on the Intoxicating Liquor Act. We made a strong recommendation that this form of discrimination should be brought back under the Equal Status Act and the remedy would be in the Workplace Relations Commission. We feel that body of work is filling an important gap.

We are also working on equality cases in respect of access to education and other services. The second largest body of our work relates to housing. That has been a major feature of the work of our legal team. That is predominately tackling three main areas. Living conditions are a major issue with respect to children with disabilities living in unsuitable accommodation, for example, where there is damp and mould, for prolonged periods, which impacts on health. Also related to that is accessing the accommodation of preference. We are working on cases where the Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs, repeatedly say this or that will be done, for example, there will be a group housing scheme, but it is not delivered and the family potentially remains on an unauthorised site with no electricity or no running water for long periods. Those are not unusual situations for the legal team to encounter.

In respect of access to homeless accommodation, we have worked with families who are in unsuitable conditions or have to sleep in their car with sick children, who have to be hospitalised, but the local authority is not able to find them emergency accommodation as there may be some dispute around eligibility. It is regrettable that this might require a legal intervention in the High Court to resolve, but these are urgent issues that need to be addressed.

There are also issues, for example, around medical priority access to the housing list and to eligibility, including local connection. That is something that has come up in previous years.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be possible to get data on the number of cases in hand?

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

I can ask my colleagues and we will provide the Deputy with whatever we have to hand.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My experience is that if an official agency threatens legal action bodies tend to move, whatever about a private individual like a pub. If you take a case against a local authority, it is my experience in general that Departments that are well run try to minimise the number of cases that go to the Ombudsman and that would result in legal letters, not to mind legal action. They move very fast if there is a perceived threat, in particular if they are likely to lose the case. It would be very useful for this committee to know the number of cases, as the IHREC is the statutory body in regard to litigation. Ms Keatinge might also indicate how many cases are against agencies of the State, be they local authorities, State bodies or the State itself, in other words, the Attorney General and Ireland. That would be very useful for us.

The reason I raise the wider issue is because we had one case in Galway where the city council eventually decided to build culturally appropriate accommodation in a bigger scheme but An Bord Pleanála turned it down saying it was premature because the infrastructure was not in place. It is getting caught up. There is a constraint on the amount of zoned land because there was a total underestimation of what was required in the NDP. We keep hitting that in every section of the provision of accommodation. I am not saying it is the problem – Ms Keatinge is dead right, as it long predates that – but it is exacerbating the problem and impacts on trying to solve it in some cases. How much is the IHREC coming across that? I am not excusing anybody, but every year we seem to be adding to the layer of challenges to provide all types of housing, in particular Traveller-specific housing. I wonder how much that is becoming a further problem on a road that has 100 problems that we face.

Ms Keatinge also made a comment about what I think are section 8 permissions.

A new phenomenon seems to be happening whereby they are not going before the council and the chief executives are not signing off. They are not doing either of those things and are balking at doing them. That has been my experience. How do we deal with that particular syndrome if there is local disquiet?

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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The committee is aware that IHREC has taken cases against councils. From listening to other witnesses, we at this committee say that accommodation is a personal choice. As soon as we take that choice away and stop using the term "choice for Travellers", they will be pushed into apartments. I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív. We need to keep saying it is a personal choice for Travellers. I have seen local authorities pushing Travellers. At least five families, including children, have been pushed from Labre Park halting site into settled accommodation. They did not have a choice. I do not know how the planning and development bill of 2022 became the Planning and Development Bill 2023. That is the Bill. Through this committee and my place in the Seanad, we will bring in amendments that we will push. Some recommendations have come from the IHREC.

I ask the witnesses to answer Deputy Ó Cuív's question. What more can the human rights and equality organisation do to support Travellers? This is not my time to ask a question. The IHREC has obviously played a vital role in our community in seeking human rights. Even at this committee, I see that we need to keep pushing to be a part of the solution. Professor O'Flaherty, the current Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe, said when he started in his role that there were big issues impacting Travellers and Roma at a European level. However, he did not give solutions and did not say what could be done or what needs to be done in Europe by way of solution. As Deputy Ó Cuív said, it is disheartening that there are so many recommendations. It is important that we have recommendations from the Ombudsman for Children and IHREC because those recommendations give us power as a committee. However, it is about pushing for actions. While we, as organisations and as a committee, are pushing for action, members of our community are dying.

I canvassed with some Independent councillors on a halting site in Tallaght. A young woman of 30 years of age and her family were living in dire accommodation that is not fit for purpose. We talked about the control of dogs in the Seanad this week and good ownership of dogs. The best way to describe the living conditions of that young adult woman is to say they are absolutely appalling. The young woman has additional needs. This follows on from, and fits in with, what Deputy Ó Cuív said. I should be a little quieter and move on to Deputy Buckley, but perhaps the witnesses would answer Deputy Ó Cuív's questions, address some of the points around the Planning and Development Bill and speak to some of the comments I have made. Including committee members, we need to stop being a part of the problem and become a part of the solution. We can write reports to state what we are doing and make ourselves sound great but there is little or no action. It is more important to reply to the Deputy than to answer my questions.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

I do not mean to be glib but as Deputy Ó Cuív said, we have had hundreds of reports over the past 20 years but the lack of implementation has been an issue. The reality is that, whether we like it or not, racism is at the root of this problem. It is like a virus that is never-ending and there is no new medicine to stop it. It is doing damage to settled communities and to us.

I would also say to the Deputy that there is one-to-one racism that you learn to live with every day. You just put up with it. You get on with your life and hope it only happens once a day. There is then the structural and institutional racism that lies within our local authorities, which view Travellers in the most disgusting way.

On a broader level, because I may not get in here again, I would like to take the opportunity to say that Travellers with disabilities are not covered under the law. Under European law, intersectionality is not covered. Therefore, if something happens around racism, people will say, "It is only because you are a woman", or, "It is only because you are disabled." There is no legislative mechanism for people like me, and there are a lot of us. I cannot say that something happens as the result of racism, ableism and sexism. I am told to pick one. Neither I or anyone else can define their life, who they are and what they are.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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There is a lot that the Joint Committee on Disability Matters can do, along with us, when it comes to Travellers with disabilities. We are not just Travellers. We are also women and people. Whatever can be seen in the general population also happens in our community. Raising that issue is very important. Combating racism and discrimination is key. How do we break through, if we ever can? We want to see Travellers doing great and having good living conditions. We do not just want to see them there beside us - not in our back garden, as the saying goes. I thank Dr. McDonagh. Some of the points she has made will be great recommendations for our report on Travellers with disabilities and accommodation issues.

I will come to Ms Keatinge. I ask her not to forget to answer Deputy Ó Cuív's question.

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

Our annual report for last year will be published shortly. It includes a good level of detail on our cases. I will be sure to provide the committee with whatever information I can.

On the structural issues, we looked at some of the broader issues when we were analysing the responses to the equality reviews from the 31 local authorities. A number of different actions flowed from them. We were cognisant that there are a number of more micro level issues and it is appropriate to engage with local authorities through the equality action plan. We have also identified broader structural issues, which has led to the planning submission we have made. It is encouraging to hear that is informing some of the recommendations that will be made. They have the potential to deal with some of the nitty-gritty difficulties. Planning is highly technical. The submission is a technical and legal document. It refers to a number of different legal provisions that apply in different circumstances when local authority land is being developed. Within the submission, not only are there recommendations around specific planning provisions but there are also recommendations for the development plans themselves and on the wording so that there is not simply a statement regarding Traveller accommodation but objectives are set out and there are obligations to set a certain minimum number of Traveller-specific accommodation that might be delivered within a certain period.

There is a number of criteria, which are set out in that submission, that could be included and would set out statutory obligations on local authorities and allow for future planning, because that is one aspect that comes up repeatedly in terms of future family formations. It has come up in our equality action plans when we have asked local authorities to look at development of their TAPs and at the census data and how that is collated and the methodologies. There can be certain predictions in engagement with communities as to the how many Traveller families there are. If there is proper planning within a framework that is designed to enable that planning and if the data is there and informs that strategy, we can provide that choice and those options as realistic ones.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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This makes sense and I ask the members to bear with me. I refer to the local authority TAPs and what Travellers want. What came from the expert group review of 2019 and from this committee as well was a stand-alone agency or authority for Traveller accommodation. I would not be the best at law or whatnot, but the dogs in the street would know that the TAPs are not fit for purpose and the local authorities have failed the Traveller community. In terms of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, where evidence shows that the local authorities are guilty of not providing for our community, what are the odds of us being able to say that we need a stand-alone Traveller authority or agency for our community? We had Cena in at the previous committee and at this committee with recommendations and it has the answers and solutions. As educated people, we have the answers. The answers are about that implementation. What are the commission's thoughts, as the human rights authority in this country, on the TAPs not being fit for purpose? Can we say they are not fit for purpose, that they have not worked in over 20 years and that we will set up the authority? Is that possible?

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

It is certainly possible. It will take legislative change. It is a change that the commission has been calling for a number of years.

As the Cathaoirleach said, that agency would have a really important role in co-ordinating the work, aligning the different strands of work and driving the implementation. One thing that we have observed in the equality action plans is in particular areas there is a real inconsistence across local authorities, for example, in terms of publishing data on funding spent on new units, on refurbishments, on how they are doing the count, on how they are developing the TAP and on the caravan loan scheme - all these aspects on which there could be such a high level of co-ordination to be able to chart what progress is being made and then measure what is being achieved and within what timeline by a review body. All those elements are important. It just takes that legislative change to set up that body.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

I am older than the Cathaoirleach by a good ten or 20 years. I am worn out. This issue of Traveller accommodation has been with us for so long and it is eroding our culture and damaging our young people and their self-esteem. We are not progressing compared to our settled peers and we are on the commission. I carry the weight of Traveller identity in ways that maybe my fellow commissioners do not know or will never understand. We have done our best. We have offered local authorities the carrot to improve. As in Europe, with Roma and Travellers, there seems to be an entrenched systemic form of institutional racism which is hard to root it out and it is hard to make any progress. While there is a lot of money and resources put into different reports, it does not tackle racism. I also hope that local authorities - maybe new generations of workers in there with new anti-racist training - will achieve more. We are not asking for much. Anyway, I am taking up too much time.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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That is very important. There have been great people engaging in activism for years. It is not only activism; it is meaningful work with reports.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

It is not nine to five either. You do not get the opportunity to live in a home. It is inside your body, your head, your life. You wake every morning. The Cathaoirleach knows what I mean.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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One hundred per cent. It is very important. The whole community is tired, looking for hope in that light and saying, "If we only had even the stand-alone accommodation authority for Travellers." A big change needs to happen and it has to be around accommodation. We cannot take our eye of the ball when it comes to Traveller accommodation because it is the wraparound for everything, including mental health, access to good education and other services.

I understand that people, such as Dr. McDonagh, Mr. Martin Collins, Ms Rosemary Moten and other great activists, are very tired, but we would not be here if we did not have hope in saying that this change and it is up to us to be part of that as well.

Deputy Buckley does not want to be here until tomorrow. It is difficult to Chair sometimes because I have so much to say.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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If you were getting paid by the word, you would be a millionaire. I thank the ladies and I hear their frustration. The Chair said if something is not working, change it. It is as simple as that. Just change it. They mentioned a national Traveller accommodation authority. There has to be something like that set up but it has to have the resources and the backing as well. They made much mention of local authorities. Some local authorities are better than others. Some local authorities do not spend any money and the question that has to be asked is: why is not that money being spent?

There have been enough reviews. I absolutely hate the word "review" because it is kicking the can down the road or staking it on another review on the same shelf. When we came into this committee, we said, as Deputy Ó Cuív would say, we would concentrate on accommodation to try to get some kind of a quick good win out of this but listening to all the witnesses who have come in here, it is not rocket science to say that whatever system is there now, this simply is not working.

Ms Keatinge mentioned certain obligations and something being obligatory. These words, "obligation" and "recommendation", have to be changed because we have to talk about imposing issues. I do not know what way we will go around it. I do not even want to go near the caravan scheme, for example. I am just interested that where there is an action, there is an instant reaction. On housing and specifically if a person has a disability, you are taking him or her out of the ethnic group. Everybody with a disability in the country is classed practically as a third-class citizen because that system is already broken and the resources are not going into it.

If someone is marginalised, it is even more difficult to access any proper services, not to mention appropriate accommodation for those services. We could be talking about this and debating the reviews, the recommendations, the obligations, where the money has gone and how much has been spent on report after report, but we do not need those reports anymore. We need brass tacks, such as an organisation set up with specific power, the backing of human rights organisations and so on. Like everything, people have to engage with their council, but it has to start here at Government level as well and the Government has to understand that the council is limited. There is a massive housing crisis at the moment, which makes it even more difficult. I suspect our guests are not on anyone's priority list - I will probably get into trouble for saying that because it is not PC but they can correct me - because there are bigger issues to worry about.

How do we encompass all of this to say that if it is going to be a housing issue, it will be a housing issue for everybody? When I say "housing", I mean accommodation in general, which could be a trailer site or whatever. In our guests' opinions, should there be a Traveller accommodation authority, specifically to work with all the councils? It would be resourced and would have a plan. The councils have budgets and we know that some are spent and that others are not. I am thinking outside of the box here. Everything goes back into the Central Fund. If there were an authority and if a council did not spend its allocation of, say, €1 million in a year, the authority would have the power to take the €1 million and direct it elsewhere for something that was in train. It would be still the same pot of money and the same level of funding but it would be utilised better. An authority could have power but could help local authorities, believe it or not, to spend funding that had been allocated better, not on reports but on bricks and mortar, concrete or whatever you want to call it. It would also give better accountability for the implementation of whatever accommodation plans are submitted.

Like anyone, Travellers have to be big stakeholders in this. Their needs will be specific to them, so it will need to be almost a case-by-case basis for accommodation. If someone wants a bungalow, for example, it has to be totally wheelchair accessible. It is about common sense, which does not seem to be present in all these reviews and plans. Would it be a good idea to have such a national Traveller accommodation authority that had power but also had the capability to deal with those budgets if they were not spent appropriately?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

If I could respond in a very superficial way, I will then hand over to our legal expert. I believe we do need a Traveller accommodation authority. In the Deputy's life and in my life, we have to make ourselves accountable to somebody, whether that is one’s boss, one’s partner or one’s family. I am accountable for my behaviour, my conduct and my financial comings and goings. The local authorities do not seem to be accountable to anyone other than themselves and, therefore, we need a broader body that would make people accountable for decisions that were made both inside and outside the room but also for decisions that were not made.

In the case of those reviews IHREC produced, I read some of the responses from local authorities. It would not be appropriate to name and shame them, even though I want to, because we are all accountable. Nevertheless, some of those responses were absolutely deplorable.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Were they dismissive?

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

Yes. The comments were laissez-faire, disrespectful and discourteous not only to Travellers but, in some aspects, to IHREC as a human rights body in that we had the audacity to focus on and question them about their budgets and so on.

I might hand over to Ms Keatinge now.

Ms Rebecca Keatinge:

This discussion was framed with a focus on housing and, obviously, that is a crucial area to get that quick win the Deputy is focusing on. As the Chair and Dr. McDonagh have pointed out, however, this operates in a broader context of pervasive discrimination. Survey results from 2017 showed 90% of the Traveller community had experienced discrimination in their lifetime, which is a staggering figure. It is our experience at the commission and in our legal work that we meet new clients all the time who are experiencing discrimination in access to a wide range of services as well as, obviously, in housing.

We really welcome the call to action to try to bring some clear-cut action to fruition, and the work to date by the Traveller expert group and by this committee is really valuable for providing a sound evidence base for actions and for legislative change that has potentially positive implications by necessity. A process has to be gone through and that is a valuable one. We are in a space where egregious human rights abuses are ongoing and pressure needs to be brought to bear to make changes in that regard.

There is goodwill in many parts of the house. In the case of local authorities, while we talk about them here as not being active, many individuals within them are keen to move the dial and that can be brought forward in some of the micro-actions.

On the single authority question, that would bring consistency, help co-ordinate actions, bring oversight and potentially bring that transparency the Deputy mentioned, but it is not going to happen overnight, so we also need to think about the steps that could be taken now, such as education in respect of rights in the context of there being no legal aid, the difficulty for members of the Traveller community to challenge that pervasive discrimination, enabling greater access to justice and information and empowering the community.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

I know what sexism is, and committee members all have an idea of it too. I also know what homophobia and ableism are. There is a reluctance, however, to use the word "racism". We tend only to use the word "discrimination". With all due respect, this is not discrimination. This is about racism. When I hear the word "discrimination" being used, I think of a lack of access or being denied access, but racism is much broader and much more endemic.

That is also part of the problem, that we use language around Traveller accommodation to minimise our experience but also to minimise the issue. We do not use the phrase "discrimination against gay people" because that does not tell us exactly what is going on but if we use the word "homophobia", it gives a clear understanding of what is at play. I think we need to use the word "racism" rather than "discrimination".

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I think Dr. McDonagh is right. Is Deputy Buckley finished?

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I am quite happy with the reply. We will discuss the matter. I get more frustrated when I hear about what is not happening.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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Yes. There is a recent example of State racism and discrimination. Again, it is down to a person's choice. Some people may look and say it is racism but some people may look and say it is discrimination. People have differing views and there can be different situations. I agree with Dr. McDonagh that it is not State discrimination. She has opened that up for me. She has made me realise that it is State racism towards Travellers. I can give an example of that within the Oireachtas. When we discussed the Control of Dogs (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in the Seanad on Tuesday, Senators used terms like "groups of people" but obviously they could not use the term "groups of Travellers" because I was chairing the Seanad which, in itself, is powerful. That is every reason we need more human rights commissioners who are members of the Traveller community, who are people of colour, who are black or brown people, and who are people with disabilities, etc. You can be in two or three of those categories, which means there are intersectionalities that go with that. I stood out of the Chair and asked for one of the other Senators to come in because I did not have a note in my head for the discussion that was going on around the Chamber.

I support the animal control Bill that was being discussed. A tragic incident happened last week to a woman in Limerick. It was absolutely horrible. I extend my condolences to that woman's family and friends. We, in the Traveller community, do not believe in any kind of cruelty or ill treatment of animals. Again, I could see right in front of my two eyes that the legislation was going to be something that would impact on our community more because men in our community keep horses and dogs. With that, I got up and said that I could not stand by any further "State discrimination", which are the words I used towards Members. The debate moved back and forward, with Senators saying they were not being racist. I said I was sorry if they heard that I said they were being racist, because that was not the case. When we are legislating for the ownership of animals, we need to be careful to ensure that Travellers are included in that conversation.

I wrote to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, to request that a member of the Traveller community sits on the group to be formed, which is the expert group on the control of animals. Again, it shows the mental health side of it for members of the Traveller community. A vital part of Traveller culture is having and owning animals. Because we are Travellers, we do not have the facilities to be able to own horses. We do not have the spaces to be able to look after them. In 2015 in Ballyfermot, we were looking at Travellers having their own horses association, where people would pay money for membership and would be well able to look after the animals they were keeping. In the Oireachtas, it is always a case of State discrimination against Travellers and other minority groups and groups on the margins. A lot of policies and legislation are aimed to keep down working-class people, people from the Traveller community, or other people from marginalised communities. I do not like using the term "disadvantaged" because it makes us even less powerful.

Without the human rights and equality commissions in Ireland and in Europe, we would not be recognised as an ethnic minority group in this country. It is only tokenistic recognition, however, because nowhere on paper are we recognised. We all need to work together. It is so important that we sing off the one hymn sheet and we say that we actually have the answers. Even in this committee we are saying we need actions, but what actions are needed? For me, it is about the local development plan and about planning. On Monday, we had a think-in with the Civil Engagement Group. Nearly all of the thinking was about including Travellers in the local development plan and about making amendments and suggestions when the Bill comes to the Seanad. I am privileged to work in a kind of group that is able to bring recommendations from this committee.

I say to Dr. McDonagh that I know the work is absolutely draining. Dr. McDonagh is the only person from the Traveller community in many groups, so she has a weight on her shoulders. We do not feel all the time that people admire that hard work and respect it. When I am in the Seanad and in other committees, I sometimes say to myself that I never thought I would see the day when I see myself as part of the problem. Does Dr. McDonagh know what I mean? We can come in here as a committee. People on this committee are genuinely good people who put politics aside and want better outcomes for members of the Traveller community. We are working together without a political party agenda. We are waiting. We have a list of requests to Departments longer than the breadth of this room, but we are still awaiting to hear back from some of them around the question of accountability to our community. I think we are chipping away at it. We are rocking the boat while staying in the boat, but it is not easy. I have no questions. I am making a lot of comments around that accountability. Your head always has to be in it when it comes to State discrimination in policies and legislation that is there, or will be there in the future, and is aimed to keep us where we are. Every community has the right to thrive. Unfortunately, our community does not have that right.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

Last week I was at a funeral in the midlands. My family and I, who are clean and tidy, behaved with the proper decorum that would be expected going to a funeral. The town had shut down all its pubs, hotels and whatever. We are used to that. However, I needed to use the bathroom. So we stopped and we got out. I needed somebody with me so I was accompanied by a member of my family. I was desperate and held on for a number of hours because I did not want to make a fuss. I went to a particular hotel or pub but they said they were not serving. I said that I do not drink but I offered to buy a lemonade if they would let me use their bathroom. The proprietor said they had been told by the gardaí not to open up and that if they did, they would not help us because of a lack of resources. All I wanted was a bathroom. I did not want to stay in the hostelry. I just needed a bathroom. You kind if think, "Look, we are human, would you just let me use the bathroom and I will be out within five minutes." There were women with me with small children who needed to be changed. There were all sorts of issues - you know yourself. As the Cathaoirleach will know, it was not about the pub and it was not about service.

It was about access to basic human needs. I just felt that here I am as a commissioner, and here I am in middle years, and that kind of nonsense has not stopped. I kind of thought we had progressed or that people would have the good sense to change the optics with regard to how they carry out racism, but no, it is still as blatant as ever.

I want to finish up. I had to go to that particular Garda station. They told everyone to close the pubs. I had to go to the bathroom in the Garda station. What kind of a country are we living in? It can only be in Ireland. There seems to be collusion between neighbours, friends, politicians, teachers and doctors. I am a reasonable person. Most Travellers are very reasonable and very gentle. They understand where you are coming from but then you cannot meet us halfway or do not respect people's basic human rights and you are told, "We are closed today", when there is not a bother. You nearly want to say, "How much money are you going to lose?" but you would not be that rude to say it. That is the world I live in, in Ireland. It does not matter what kind of a Traveller I am, I was not going to get to use that bathroom.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I agree with that, and going back to what Dr. McDonagh said earlier when she spoke about homophobia and sexism as well, and has always said this over the years, that there is no race to the end. Racism is racism, no matter what community you are from. Again, people do not understand that you can be and are a member of the Traveller community who is in a wheelchair and has other needs as well. That is how closed-minded society is. For me, even before the local elections, there was divide and conquer, and these topics around immigration in Ireland. I went canvassing with loads of independent councillors, and not once - I am not joking - did the issue of migration come up on the doors. I walked a lot, and did it in Donegal, and all parts of Dublin from Firhouse to Swords. Not once did any person bring up the issue of migration on the doors.

I think what this Government and previous Governments have been brilliant at doing are issues around racism and discrimination, and communities at each other, as we can see now. As my colleague, Senator Ruane, would often say, it is people with nothing fighting for nothing. My point is that we know one of the biggest issues is racism towards our community, and it is that racism around, "Sure they cannot live here". We have seen it from politicians who went on to be Ministers, and there is one politician who has not long been appointed a Minister of State and what her leaflet says is pure racism towards the Traveller community. It is unfortunate that we live in an Ireland where if you are only being racist towards Travellers, it is more acceptable. It is banter in the pub. I am gone to a point in my life as a professional where I recognise that while the core is racism and discrimination from the State and from all angles, for me it is like, "Okay, I will talk about racism in the few minutes after we get the action on this and then we can go back", while it all interlinks. You could spend meeting after meeting, and even today, it has opened up for me to ask if there is a way this committee could link with the European Parliament in the work it is doing to make life better for Travellers. Is that our next step as a committee? It is like pulling teeth here in trying to get action on a better life for the Traveller community.

With regard to this session, I will be driving home to Donegal thinking about the conversation this morning about the work that is being done at European level that we like to turn a blind eye to here. However, it is genuinely that lack of accountability. I could go into the Seanad every single day and talk about the racism, hatred and discrimination that we experience on a daily basis and how acceptable it is in this country. I am blue in the face from doing that. We are trying to chip away at the hate crime legislation and get that across the line. It is legislation that will also work for our community when it comes to incitement to hatred, such as the burning of houses that are allocated to Travellers, etc. I think it is important, and for me, as Deputy Buckley has said, if something is not working we need to fix it. I no longer go into committees and say that the problem is racism because I would be there talking for 20 minutes about something they already know is happening. I choose to use my committee time not to speak about racism but to ask what else can be done next to provide accommodation. However, it is the root problem and we have to deal with it. We cannot be naive and say that we will put racism to the side because it is the overall problem in services, housing and accommodation.

I think this morning's meeting has been really powerful for me, and is leaving me with a lot of thought. I am sure it is the same for Deputy Ó Cuív and other Deputies and Senators who will be watching.

Dr. Rosaleen McDonagh:

If we are wrapping up, I might make one or two comments. One is that we do need a Traveller accommodation authority most urgently. That needs to be funded and resourced, and the power, anonymity and individuality of a local authority has to be taken away. Second, our history tells us that it was Europe that shamed Ireland into supporting Travellers and Roma. It was Europe, so I welcome Senator Flynn's insight around bringing more issues to the European Parliament.

Third, I would say that in order for IHREC to do its work - and I mean in-depth and not superficial work - more resources need to be given. Also, within Traveller organisations, we need more resources to empower and sustain the momentum of supporting Travellers, including Travellers with a disability, to know what their rights are, to develop an analysis and to work with the State. We need other resources.

Ms Keatinge may want to make a comment.

My final comment is that there is no hierarchy of marginalisation. It is across the board. You have racism, you have poverty, you have disability and you have poor health. That is what our community has - poverty, disability and poor health.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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this Dr. McDonagh is 100% right. There is no hierarchy of who endures the most. It is unfortunate that we have seen that lately, in that kind of way. For me, as a professional community development worker, that is dividing to conquer.

Just before we finish, on behalf of the committee I wish to recognise James Stokes, a young Traveller man who played an absolute blinder in his campaign in Kildare. It was great. For us at the committee, putting all political parties aside, it is important that Travellers and other people from minority groups have the opportunity for meaningful participation in elections. It was brilliant to see James Stokes do so well. He lost a battle; he did not lose the war. He is 18 years of age and I have no doubt he will go on to do amazing things. Just to remind Dr. McDonagh, while it is very tough and there is the likes of Martin and David Joyce and other great Traveller activists, it is because of people like you that young men like James see it is possible and that Travellers can and do make a stand. I thank IHREC for being present today and supporting us to write up another report for actions.

I have a suggestion we might agree to. We could write to the housing committee to see what it has done on Traveller accommodation and let us have a public session with it. Something we do not want to do as a committee is segregate Travellers. We do not want to say we will take that because we are the Traveller committee and we have the responsibility for their housing and we will do all that for them. Years ago, I remember at the top of halting sites there used to be the Traveller doctor, who was not a Traveller, but you would get your vaccination off them and every Traveller in the country had to go to Castle Street if they wanted to get their social welfare. We do not want to be part of segregation. Can we agree that we will write to the housing committee to get it on board and do a session involving both committees?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Agreed.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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It is agreed. Thanks so much. I thank Dr. McDonagh. Our next meeting will take place in private at 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 20 June via Microsoft Teams.