Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Michael Moynihan and Cairns and Senator O'Loughlin. The topic of this meeting is disability-inclusive social protection. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Ms Denise Kennedy, assistant secretary, head of HR and corporate affairs, and Mr. Kevin Galligan and Mr. Colm McKiernan, principal officers, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine; Mr. John Maher, principal officer, Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment; Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan, principal officer, and Ms Clare Naughton, assistant principal officer. Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage; and Mr. Rónán Hession, assistant secretary and Dr. Sarah Waters, principal officer, Department of Social Protection.

Before we begin, I must read the note on privilege. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative witnesses comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. In this regard, I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they confirm they are on the grounds of the complex.

I call Ms Kennedy to make her opening statement.

Ms Denise Kennedy:

I am the head of HR and corporate affairs at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. My team and I are delighted to be here today to discuss disability-inclusive social protection in the context of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. I am joined by my colleagues Kevin Galligan, Colm McKiernan, Catherine Halley and Wila Bruce.

As outlined in our submission, it is noted the UNCRPD adopts a broad understanding of social protection that effectively contributes to the realisation of essential rights such as social security, adequate standards of living, living independently in the community and with access to health care, education, and employment. While the Department is not the lead for policy development in this area, we remain highly committed to the aims of the convention. We incorporate this commitment primarily through promoting and maintaining an inclusive and diverse workplace and by ensuring wide accessibility to all our services. The Department also incorporates this commitment through funding of the LEADER programme and the social farming project as part of the rural innovation and development fund. The Department’s Statement of Strategy 2021-2024 sets out as one of its core values, "A strong commitment to diversity, inclusion and the fair and equal treatment of all." These core values are embraced in respect of both our own employees and customers and stakeholders of the Department who avail of our wide range of services.

With respect to the topic of moving away from an "incapacity to work" approach, the Department has internal and external measures focused on disability inclusion. On the internal front, the Department’s diversity, equality, and inclusion policy, builds on our core values of "A strong commitment to diversity, inclusion and the fair and equal treatment of all." We have exceeded the 3% minimum employment requirement in each of the past ten years and the level was at 4.23% at the end of 2022, that is, 166 of our staff reporting with a disability. In May 2022, an equality, diversity, and inclusion advocacy team was launched by the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Brendan Gleeson. The mission of the team is to celebrate the diversity of our people and promote equality of opportunity and respect for diversity in all aspects of the Department’s business and to promote, champion and foster a work environment where our people are free to be their authentic selves, to be creative, thrive and to flourish, while making a valuable contribution to the Department’s goals. In December 2022, to celebrate colleagues with disabilities, a number of staff shared their lived experiences of their disability in a series of short videos that were made available staff throughout the Department. In addition, as part of this celebration a number of transition year students from the Holy Family School for the Deaf visited the Department and shared some insights about communication and sign language. Both initiatives were highly informative and of great value to our staff from an education and awareness-raising perspective.

Our Department fully supports active labour market policies that facilitate access to the labour market for people with disabilities. We participate in three programmes in place in the civil and public service. There is the willing, able, and mentoring programme, which provides a six-month paid and mentored work placement for graduates with disabilities. Former participants now have a pathway to permanent employment. One former participant of the programme joined the Department in a permanent post in early 2023. In the second programme the Department has collaborated with the Houses of the Oireachtas Service and other Departments on the Oireachtas work learning, OWL. programme. This is an applied learning and development programme for young adults with an intellectual disability. In place since September 2019, the programme has been developed to include a confined recruitment competition for permanent part-time posts. In June 2022, one of the graduates from the OWL programme joined our team in a permanent post. Both programmes facilitate benefits being compatible with work, whereby the recruits from these programmes work a shorter week, in particular in the case of the OWL programme. This year, plans are under way to provide opportunities for people with disabilities under the job shadow scheme.

Moving to more externally focused accessibility measures, the Department aims to ensure that the needs of all its customers, including people with disabilities, are met and that the rights of equal treatment are upheld in the delivery of our services.

In accordance with section 26(2) of the Disability Act 2005, two appointed access officers are responsible for providing support to people with disabilities in accessing services provided by the Department. Our move to the gov.ie portal enabled the Department to redesign its website to comply with the web accessibility initiative, WAI, and the National Disability Authority, NDA, guidelines. We have developed our online self-service options so that customers can complete their submissions online at a time and pace that suits them. They can contact our phone helplines and a customer can also nominate a representative to liaise on their behalf.

Turning to the LEADER programme, the Department provides funding for the programme for rural development, as led by the Department of Rural and Community Development. The programme is focused on a thematic approach to rural development under the headings of economic development, enterprise development and job creation, social inclusion, and the rural environment. Focusing on the move away from institutionalised care to support for living in the community, the Department part-funds initiatives related to social farming and community supports. Social farming is the practice of offering, on a voluntary basis, farming and horticultural participation in a farming environment open to people who avail of a range of therapeutic day support services. Experience has shown that well-run operations provide an opportunity for inclusion for participants which can increase their self-esteem and improve their health and well-being. Departments and agencies work together in the delivery of this model.

Leitrim Development Company has secured a contract for the past three years to enable the design, development and implementation of a national social farming network. An allocation of €400,000 is being provided by the Department in 2023 to further develop and expand the network. In addition, a competitive procurement process was held in 2021 for the development of best-practice social farming model projects. Contracts were awarded with associated funding of approximately €377,000 to support four projects. The Social Farming Ireland Network has over 150 registered social farms, with at least one farm in every county. More than 600 people have been trained by the Leitrim Development Company in the principles and practices of social farming. In 2022 alone, some 6,867 placement days were delivered, up from fewer than 2,000 in 2017.

In drawing my opening statement to a conclusion, I thank the committee for this opportunity to provide an overview of our commitment to supporting disability-inclusive social protection and we are happy to take questions.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Kennedy. I call Mr. Maher.

Mr. John Maher:

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Department’s mission is to lead on sustainable economic development through the creation and maintenance of high-quality employment across all regions. We do this by championing enterprise; by ensuring a competitive business base to incentivise work, enterprise, innovation and investment; by strengthening global connections and promoting trade; by promoting fair and competitive markets and best business practice; and by ensuring safe, flexible and decent workplaces through the regulatory and enforcement work of the Department, our offices and our agencies.

The Department seeks to implement the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, under each relevant article of the convention. Article 27, in particular, recognises the right of persons with disabilities to work on an equal basis with others. This includes the right to the opportunity to gain a living by work freely chosen or accepted in a labour market and a work environment that is open, inclusive and accessible to persons with disabilities.

The Employment Equality Acts come under the responsibility of the Department. The Acts place obligations on employers to take reasonable steps to accommodate the needs of employees and job applicants with disabilities. Denial of reasonable accommodation under the Acts can be a cause for action and may amount to discrimination on disability grounds. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, deals with all complaints of discrimination, not limited to workplace complaints, made under the Equality Acts. The most recent Central Statistics Office, CSO, data show that only 36.5% of disabled people aged 20 to 64 are in employment, compared with 72.8% of the non-disabled population. While the Department does not lead on labour market activation policy, our recently published White Paper on Enterprise recognises the importance of flexible working practices and measures to make work pay and incentivise greater labour force participation.

The Minister, Deputy Coveney, also considers increasing the numbers of people with disabilities participating in the labour market as representing a significant opportunity for employers and the enterprise sector and he made this point in a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment last week. Increasing employment opportunities for disabled persons involves tackling barriers to labour force participation and a whole-of-government response. The key frameworks for policy and action are the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS, and the comprehensive employment strategy, CES. The Department is represented on the steering groups for both these strategies.

The National Competitiveness and Productivity Council, NCPC, is provided with research and secretariat support by the Department. The council examined the labour participation rate of persons with disabilities in its 2022 report on Ireland's competitiveness challenge. The NCPC recommended finalisation of the final action plan of the CES and combining this into one single strategy with the successor strategy of the NDIS. It also recommended that the Government continue to examine ways to improve the co-ordination of policy across Government Departments.

Enterprise routes such as self-employment and entrepreneurship are increasingly important employment options for people with disabilities. Among people with a disability who are employed, the NDA reports that 14.8% are self-employed. This is comparable to the overall entrepreneurship self-employment rate. Our enterprise agencies have several initiatives in place to help to encourage employers to employ persons with disabilities. Enterprise Ireland, EI, is focused on ensuring that its supports for entrepreneurs and enterprises are accessible to all, including people with disabilities. In 2022 EI signed a partnership agreement with Open Doors to further develop awareness campaigns and programmes that will utilise success stories of self-employed and entrepreneur role models with a variety of disabilities. The local enterprise offices are progressing a new online course in entrepreneurship for people with disabilities which will begin in September 2023. While the remit of IDA Ireland is to attract and retain foreign direct investment, it has launched a pilot programme designed to widen the talent pool and attract people from diverse backgrounds to avail of employment opportunities. Details of this pilot initiative are set out in our submission to the committee. The role of employers in closing the employment gap is of particular relevance to the work of this committee. The Department is open to collaborating with other relevant Departments and representative bodies to provide the necessary supports and information for employer bodies and employers in this regard. EI and the IDA also support the employers for change initiative.

At an organisational level, the Department has a disability consultative committee with representatives from the disability stakeholder group, DSG, and the NDA. This committee provides a focus for disability inclusion in respect of policy work, schemes and initiatives the Department undertakes. It also monitors implementation of our actions under the NDIS and the CES. The Department has a disability liaison officer who, among other things, organises work placements for people with disabilities, specifically for the willing able mentoring, WAM, project. Additionally, the Department also has access officers who work in co-ordinating assistance and guidance for persons with disabilities to access the full range of services we provide. In line with the Government's commitment to increase the percentage of employing people with a disability in the public sector to 6% by 2024, the Department currently has a level of 7%.

As part of our high-level engagement on the new national disability strategy, we look forward to working with relevant stakeholders, including this committee, to consider what further actions we and our agencies can take to increase participation in the labour market by persons with a disability.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Maher. I call Mr. O'Sullivan now.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

I thank the committee for the invitation to represent the Department on housing policy for disabled people and for providing the opportunity to brief members on this important area. I am a principal officer with responsibility for social inclusion, while my colleague Clare Naughton is the assistant principal officer in social inclusion.

The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage’s policy in respect of housing for disabled people is underpinned by a dedicated joint strategy undertaken between the Department and the Department of Health since 2011. The new joint National Housing Strategy for Disabled People 2022-2027 was launched by the Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, on 14 January 2022. The new strategy sets out the vision for the co-operation and collaboration to be undertaken by Government Departments, State agencies, including local authorities, and others in delivering housing and related supports for disabled people over the next five years.

The strategy operates within the framework of Housing for All – A New Housing Plan for Ireland, which is committed to ensuring that affordable, quality housing, with an appropriate mix of housing design types provided within social housing, including universally designed units, is available to everyone in Irish society, including those with disabilities. The plan sets out, over four pathways, a broad suite of measures to achieve its policy objectives together with a financial commitment of in excess of €4 billion annually.

Since the publication of the new strategy, work has been under way to achieve the objectives set out in it. The Housing Agency, together with all of the Departments and agencies involved, have also been developing an implementation plan to ensure that a comprehensive suite of actions involving all stakeholders is put in place which will ensure the delivery of the high-level objectives. A national implementation steering group, chaired by the Housing Agency, has already been established. The group is actively advancing implementation of the strategy and will have responsibility for the delivery of the actions in the implementation plan. The finalisation of the implementation plan is a key priority. It is planned to publish it in conjunction with the launch of an awareness campaign shortly.

We have already provided a note to the committee, which highlighted the overall vision of the strategy to facilitate disabled people to live independently with the appropriate choices and control over where, how and with whom they live, promoting their inclusion in the community. To that end, the areas that are to be addressed to deliver on this vision are set out across a number of themes: accessible housing and communities; interagency collaboration and the provision of supports; affordability of housing; communication and access to information, knowledge, capacity, and expertise; and strategy alignment.

Among the objectives of the strategy is to meet our commitments under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities to facilitate disabled people to live independently and as part of the community. The strategy aims to ensure that disabled people have equal access to housing and clearer pathways to accessing support services, promoting their inclusion in the community from a housing perspective. Successful housing outcomes for disabled people requires an effective blending of housing and health policy. We are collaborating very productively under the national housing strategy for disabled people with our colleagues in the Departments of Health and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and local authorities and the HSE to plan for the delivery of services to meet the needs of disabled people. As part of this collaboration, the Department and the HSE jointly fund mental health tenancy sustainment officers who support people with mental health difficulties to sustain their tenancies and prevent homelessness.

Housing and disability steering groups, which were established under the previous strategy, are reaffirmed under the new strategy as the most effective forum for delivery of the outcomes of the strategy at the local level. They are responsible for the preparation of local strategic plans for the housing of disabled people. The role of the housing and disability steering groups will be strengthened over the lifetime of the national strategy. Housing and disability steering groups are chaired at senior level by the directors of services in the local authority and membership includes representation from the HSE, disabled persons organisations and approved housing bodies, AHBs.

The Department delivers on housing for disabled people by stimulating supply in the private sector and directly funding social housing. Local authorities and AHBs are key partners in this regard. Housing for disabled people is funded from the mainstream capital programmes for social housing in local authorities, as well as the capital assistance scheme, which provides funding to approved housing bodies for specialist housing, including AHBs like the Irish Wheelchair Association, the Housing Association for Integrated Living, HAIL, and others that specialise in housing for disabled people.

Returns from local authorities indicate an increase year on year in allocations of social housing to households with disability as a primary basis of need. In 2016, there were just over 1,200 such households accommodated doubling to over 2,400 households last year, representing 15% of total allocations for 2022.

For disabled people who remain living in their existing home, the housing adaptation grant scheme for people with a disability and older people, the mobility aids grants scheme and the housing aid for older people scheme allow disabled people in private housing to make adaptations and improvements to their homes to enable them to go on living there in comfort.

Funding totalling €83.125 million is available to local authorities for these grant schemes in 2023, ensuring a continuation of the year-on-year increases in the grants since 2014. This funding allocation is expected to result in some 12,300 grants for older people and disabled people to facilitate them living independently in their own homes. In line with the Housing for All commitment, the Department has prepared a report on the review of the grants which the Minister is currently considering.

The Department is firmly committed to the strategic framework in place to deliver housing and related supports for disabled people to live independently. To this end, the Department will be working closely and collaboratively with the Housing Agency, together with the other Departments and key agencies, in driving delivery of the new strategy. At the same time, working collaboratively together with the disability sector is critical to achieving the common objective of the delivery of housing for disabled people through mainstream housing policy in a supported environment. We are happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to attend in order to discuss disability inclusive social protection. I am the assistant secretary general at the Department of Social Protection with responsibility for working-age income supports, including disability payments. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Sarah Waters, who is principal in the area.

In advance of today’s meeting, we provided a detailed briefing note which I hope has been of assistance. In the time allotted to me for my opening statement, I will touch on the key themes that have been identified as being of interest to the committee.

The development of services and policies to improve employment opportunities for people with disabilities is a whole-of-government responsibility. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is the lead Department in co-ordinating these efforts, but we all have our part to play. In the Department of Social Protection, we are implementing a voluntary early engagement approach for young people with disabilities. This has already been introduced for those aged 18 to 22 years and is now being rolled out to those between age 22 and 25 years. We are also reviewing the reasonable accommodation fund and the disability awareness support scheme, following an extensive consultation process. This review is close to being finalised. We will review the wage subsidy scheme later this year.

It is critical that the welfare-to-work journey is as smooth as possible. We have introduced a number of measures to enable this transition: a benefit of work estimator for disabled people, which helps calculate the net benefit of entering or returning to work; the free travel pass can be retained for five years by people with a long-term disability in receipt of the disability allowance who go on to take up employment; and where a person exits a disability payment to enter employment, they can be fast-tracked back to the payment if they need to revert within 12 months.

On eligibility thresholds and benefit levels, including means testing, social welfare disability payments generally fall into one of two categories. The first category is based on social insurance contributions. These payments are not means tested and examples include invalidity pension and illness benefit. A person who does not have enough PRSI contributions to qualify for a social insurance payment may apply for a means-tested payment, such as disability allowance. The application of the means test ensures that scarce resources are targeted to those with greatest income need.

The disability allowance means test includes an earnings disregard, which has increased by almost 38% over the last three budgets. This means that a person can now earn up to €165 before their disability allowance or blind pension payment is affected. I should explain that the disregard operates on a taper, which means that a person can earn up to €495 per week before they lose their payment. It is important to clarify this point as there is a common misconception that a person on disability allowance can only earn up to €165, which is not the case.

I know the committee is interested in the question of moving away from a one-size-fits-all approach. The Department is examining this in the context of the road map for social inclusion commitment to develop and consult on a straw man proposal for the restructuring of long-term disability payments. This will also look at simplifying the system and removing inconsistencies and anomalies, while also ensuring that we recognise the continuum of disabilities and support employment. The cost of disability research report that was published by our Department in 2021, is also feeding into the preparation of the straw man proposals. Work on the straw man is at an advanced stage and publication is expected in the coming months. A wider consultation process will be carried out with all stakeholders and advocacy groups following publication.

An important part of the UNCRPD implementation involves measures to provide an adequate standard of living and social protection. This is core to the work of our Department. The 2023 budget package for disabled people included a mix of lump sum payments and increases to rates, including: a cost-of-living double payment for all social protection recipients; a €500 cost-of-living disability support grant;a €400 lump-sum fuel allowance payment; a €200 lump sum payment for pensioners and people with a disability receiving the living alone allowance; a Christmas bonus double payment; increases of €12 to the maximum weekly rates of payment on our schemes; a €200 cost of living lump sum, paid last month; and increases in the means assessment threshold for fuel allowance from €120 to €200.

As outlined, the Department seeks to support the participation of disabled people in work and society more broadly. We do this through our income supports, our employment services and the way we do our business. Several of my colleagues gave the percentages of disabled people working in their organisations. The figure for our Department is 6.8%.

Of course, we recognise the significant challenges faced by disabled people. I have endeavoured to identify tangible measures we have taken to address these and our plans to do more in this space. We will be happy to assist with any questions the committee may have.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Hession. I ask members to adhere to the agenda.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for their opening statements and briefing notes, which were very much appreciated. Mr. Hession referred to scarce resources, but for people with long-term disabilities that they will have for the rest of their lives, where it is objectively clear that a diagnosis of a given illness or condition means they will have it for the rest of their lives, they are nonetheless obliged annually to fill out forms and almost prove their disability again and again. I have sat with people who have had to do this on behalf of a family member or assist them, and with individuals themselves, who feel the fact that has to be done is evidence of an approach where people are subject almost to an assumption of fraud, where the onus is on the individual to prove he or she is not fraudulent and really is disabled. They feel this is contemptible and disrespectful and that is their experience of it. How can the Department of Social Protection overcome that? How is it justified when a person has a disability that is not going to go away? How can we do better in that regard?

My next question is for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. There are a lot of supports when it comes to low-level employment opportunities, but people with disabilities have the capacity and capability to come into jobs at any level. If anything, my experience on this committee has been that there are outstanding people who come in and show incredible capacity. What supports are there at a high level? I attended a recent women in business meeting held by our party with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and one individual raised this issue, whereby in the context of Enterprise Ireland and other agencies, there does not seem to be evidence of high-level support for disabled people.

The cost of disability report demonstrated that an individual with a disability will have a weekly additional cost of somewhere between €167 and €236. Where is that factored into the earnings disregard? People with disabilities should have much higher thresholds and higher inclusion to take account of the fact they have costs others do not have.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

On the question of reviews, it is not a condition that we review everyone every year. Between the two main payments, namely, the disability allowance and the invalidity pension, 220,000 people are on those schemes and we do not have anywhere near the capacity to review that volume of people. Obviously, there are individual circumstances. There is a wide spectrum of disabilities, both in terms of the nature of the disability and the extent of it, and there are what are called comorbidities, where people have more than one condition. What tends to happen is that the medical assessors, who are doctors in our Department, will assess what the appropriate review interval is, depending on the condition.

If someone is on the invalidity pension, for example, there are two main qualifying criteria. One is that the person is permanently incapable of work. In those cases, where the condition is not going to resolve itself, there is not an obvious justification for annual or even regular reviews. The other criterion is that the condition has existed for a year and is likely to continue for a further year. Somebody who qualifies into that criterion has a condition that is expected to improve. These are statutory schemes that the Oireachtas has ordained as the rules for the schemes, so we have to comply with them. For the disability allowance, if the condition is not going to improve, those cases tend to be marked as "do not review again", or DNRA. If there is a specific case of concern or interest, the Senator should bring it to our attention and I will be happy to look into it but, in general, we do not carry out that volume or regularity of reviews as standard.

Before I hand over to my colleagues, I might touch on the costs of disability, given that question was probably best directed at me. The cost of disability report identified a wide range of costs and the Senator is correct in saying the average range, although it varies considerably, is between about €9,500 and €11,800. There is quite a lot of granularity in the report, which is important when it comes to translating its findings into policy responses. There is a whole-of-government approach, referred to the national disability inclusion strategy, NDIS, under the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, at which all the Departments are represented.

As for what is driving the costs, it can relate to the cost of medicines, of therapies, of transport, of broadband, of housing or of ongoing living costs such as higher heating costs, where people need to keep the heating turned on permanently at a higher level. Indecon, the consultants that advised on and prepared that report, has stated that what we need to do to respond to it is a mix of things, including income supports, targeted grants and services, whereby if the issue relates to access to therapies, for example, perhaps what people need is greater access to a therapy rather than an income support to help them procure it privately. From the Department's point of view and as already outlined, there were increases in the budget – I understand it was the largest social welfare package in the history of the State - to try to address some of that, although there is more to do there, as outlined in the disability straw man. What Indecon advised not to do was to take whatever resources we have and try to spread it thinly among everybody. It indicated it would be better to target those who are facing the highest costs, and that is something we are looking at in the straw man.

For those who have not come across a straw man previously, it is an hypothecated version of how the future might look. The analogy I often use is that it is a bit like when you go to Ikea and see an Ikea apartment mocked up. Everything is customisable, but you sort of need to see one to make up your mind about what you think would work. It is not a Government proposal but rather one possible model to invite reactions. We will bring that forward shortly and the cost of disability will feed into that. In any event, there is a Government decision and all Departments are responding to that and feeding in through the NDIS.

An aspect of the Senator's question related to how costs are linked to the disregard. The disregard does not take account of a person’s costs. It applies to those who go back to work. Of 157,000 people on the disability allowance, about 12,000 people are working, or using the disregard.

What the disregard does is calculate how much of the payment people keep as they work more and more. It is not related to their costs; it is related to their employment income. Two or three budgets ago, it was about €120, then it was moved to €140 and it is now €165, which aligns it with the disregard for lone parents. It means that when someone goes over €165, for every €1 they earn, their payment reduces by 50 cent up to €375, and then it is euro for euro. The net effect is that if the person goes back to work, up to about €495 they have some form of allowance. It is a sort of transition mechanism for people who are leaving the payment and going back to work. As they work more, the payments phase gradually, rather than having a cliff edge where they go back to work and lose their payment. In other words, it is not necessarily directed at the costs and it is more about how to get the right blend between social welfare income support and employment support.

There was another question that will be dealt with by my colleagues.

Mr. John Maher:

The Department would agree there is an employment gap between persons with disabilities and the total employment rate, and that is a gap that needs to be narrowed. We do not provide any direct labour market activation supports but I would note from the census data that this does not really give a disaggregation by occupation, by earnings or by sector, so I do not have any specific information on high-skilled versus low-skilled employment. I note from the census that, as well as an employment gap, there is a big educational attainment gap for persons with disabilities. For those who had not progressed further than primary level, it is 13.7% among persons with disabilities versus 4% for the population, and for those who completed third level, it is 37% for persons with disabilities and 53% or 54% for the total rate. As for employment prospects, there is a strong correlation between employment and educational attainment.

In terms of what the Department and its agencies are doing, as set out in our submission, the IDA is working in partnership with Generation Ireland to deepen and widen the talent pool and get that message out to its client companies. Similarly, Enterprise Ireland has a partnership agreement with Open Doors to further develop awareness and campaigns, to utilise success stories and to get the message out there.

The other important element is the Employers for Change programme that is run by Open Doors and supported by the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Enterprise Ireland and the IDA. That is a dedicated service that gives advice and information to employers about recruiting and employing persons with disabilities. That awareness raising is an important part of bridging the high-skill versus low-skill employment gaps. Hopefully, that will be of assistance to the Senator.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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That is great. Thank you.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank Deputy Ellis for allowing me to step in. Unfortunately, I have to leave at 10.40 a.m. and I just want to ask a couple of questions before then. I thank the witnesses for coming in. They will know the saying “When gardaí start to look young”, but when assistant secretaries general start to look young, I come to the depressing conclusion that I am just getting older.

In regard to agriculture, I am from Dublin and my dad was from Drumcondra in Dublin. He was a garda and in the 1950s, when he came out of the Garda Training Depot in the Phoenix Park, he was sent to Cahir in County Tipperary. He was really anxious to find crime in 1950s rural Tipperary but he was unsuccessful. He did question a number of farmers about bull licences and they very gently pointed out to him the difference between a male bull and a female cow. I just want to foreground my absolute and complete ignorance of the agricultural sector before I make my observations.

In regard to disability, the witnesses mentioned a number of funds that the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine administers to promote and support farmers. Farming has 10% of the workforce but it has a very high accident rate. Since I have come into this role as a Senator, I have been contacted by a high number of people from the farming community who have been injured in accidents. According to Teagasc, there were over 4,500 farm accidents last year and many accidents lead to persons having disabilities. The injuries can be permanent and, for example, people can lose an arm or a leg through an accident with the drive shaft, which I understand is a common cause of farm accidents for farm operators or members of their family.

In regard to those payments, does the Department give special consideration in those application processes to farmers who have become disabled or, if a farmer is in receipt of disability allowance, does it in any way compromise their eligibility for some of the other payments? I ask the Department to consider that in the context that I am going to ask the Department of Social Protection about this. Again, I thank the witnesses from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for coming in.

With regard to the Department of Social Protection, I have two questions. One is outside the control of the Department and I appreciate the witnesses are public servants; they do not make policy and they are tasked with implementing it. However, the other question is on an issue that the Department could take some action on.

With regard to the Indecon survey, the witnesses said that the average extra cost per household of the cost of disability is between €9,000 and €11,800. I did a rough calculation and I note that the disability allowance per annum is €11,440, which is a tiny amount of money. My question concerns an issue over which the witnesses probably do not have much control. I cannot remember the exact phrase used but the witnesses talked about “earning up to €165” and so on. Really, for persons with a disability, that should be a universal payment like children's allowance and it should not be in any way mitigated if a person has the capacity to earn. There are some 220,000 people on disability allowance or invalidity payments. Given the amount of time and effort the Department is investing in administering and checking that and the mitigation of those payments, I think it would be better invested in making sure that everybody who is entitled to a payment gets it, and that it should be as easy as possible.

The barriers to participation in Ireland's cultural, social and economic life are very significant for persons with disabilities. I think we are close to the bottom of the class in Europe when it comes to participation in the workplace. Part of that is because of what Indecon observed, which is that a better way of using the resources the Department has available to it would be to make sure there is access to services. However, there is no access to services in Ireland, and that is the reality. This committee heard the CEO of the HSE just before Christmas, on the record, say that progressing disability services in the community, such as physio and all of the supports we are talking about, has failed and that we are actually in failure. I am sure Indecon are lovely people but the reality is that those services do not exist on the ground.

What I am trying to communicate is how difficult it is to just get out of bed in the morning, to get dressed, to be toileted and to be fed, and all in the absence of adequate provision of personal assistance, which is another failure in our system. The reason the participation rate is so low is because of all of those barriers and obstacles, so, for me, the idea that any payments would be mitigated because a person has managed to earn some income is something that should not happen. I know it is not something the Department has control over but if the officials are talking to the relevant Minister or Minister of State, they could say that this is an idea.

On what is within the Department’s control, we have had evidence here from people like Emilie Conway, who is partially sighted and a disabled artist. Apparently, when a disabled artist gets an award from the Arts Council, the amount of the award they are given is deducted from their disability allowance or whatever benefit they are getting. Again, I think that is within the gift of the Department, if the officials present today could talk to their counterparts in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. That should not be happening. For a disabled artist to make a contribution and to be awarded and recognised in that way, and to have a grant made available to them to encourage their art and get it to a critical point where they could actually contribute and generate revenue in the Republic, it seems particularly cruel and unnecessary to make such a deduction.

If the Department has any discretion in that regard, or if the officials can even talk their counterparts in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media with a view to eliminating that practice, I ask them to do so. I imagine it is just a matter of the two Departments engaging with each other.

Finally, on the remit of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, this week RTÉ reported that there are 1,300 disabled young people under the age of 65 who are inappropriately housed in nursing homes in the State. That is completely and utterly unacceptable. As the parent of a young man who has a disability and who would like to live independently, it is very frightening to think that your adult child would end up in a nursing home. As one disabled young man in his 30s said, he is in an old folks' home and he feels lost.

The Government, by its own definition, defines an emergency as a situation where local resources have become overwhelmed and there is a requirement for a national response. That is the Government's own definition of an emergency. In respect of the housing crisis and homelessness, as we all know, we are in a perfect storm that is no one's fault, with the war in Ukraine, the housing, social and affordable housing crisis that was there anyway, plus the hundreds of people coming to Ireland seeking international protection. It is an emergency now, not a crisis. I did a bit of research on this. The national emergency task force in Government, the emergency steering committee and all those things, have all now operated since 2020. The latest report of the committee was issued by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in November 2021. The task force has been replaced by the national steering group. The body in the Republic that is tasked with dealing with emergencies is the national steering group, which I believe resides within the Department. It has a secretariat to support it. I think it is high time that the Department declared an emergency. According to the Department's own guidelines, it has identified two principal agencies and one lead agency to deal with homelessness. Obviously, in the case of housing for citizens with disabilities, the lead agency would be the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Two other agencies might possibly be stakeholder groups. I do not know. The national emergency co-ordination centre, once activated, is empowered to bring all of the private and public sector together to deal with the crisis. Definitely, persons with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by homelessness. One in four homeless people at the moment have a disability. A bit like the very low participation rates in paid employment, that places us very close to the bottom of the league in the EU. I know that housing allocation officers throughout the local authorities are really good people and they are very proactive. They engage with families and really try to assist, but it requires a whole-of-government approach. I am aware of lots of cases where the housing allocation officer will ask the person and the family if they have a care package in place to support that person. Really, the basic fundamental human right to housing and shelter should not be predicated upon the HSE's unwillingness to administer a care package - and I have seen it. Very often, it is not a lack of resources, but an unwillingness actually to do the administration and administer a home care package. The right of disabled people to housing should not be predicated on that. By declaring an emergency, it would be easier to take a whole-of-government interagency approach to try to drive this thing forward, because, as I said, it is not a crisis; it is an emergency. I thank the witnesses for their patience and for coming in today. I know that was a very long-winded set of questions.

Ms Denise Kennedy:

I thank the Senator for his questions and fully understand the passion he has in what he is saying. To comment on the whole health and safety issue from the perspective of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, it is something that is very close to our hearts and something that we push very strongly in our collaboration with the Health and Safety Authority. We have a Be Summer Ready campaign that is launching, and there is also a Be Winter Ready campaign. Health and safety is something that we really promote, at the ploughing championship among other aspects. In terms of the farmers that require disability services, the schemes and access to funding, we administer in excess of 30 schemes on behalf of the EU. There are rules in place for every scheme. Not wanting to avoid answering the Senator's question, depending on the scheme, I would have to check and see if the Senator has a particular case. The officials from the Department of Social Protection may have something to say about the disability allowance piece.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Could the Department ensure, if possible, that a person in receipt of a disability allowance does not have that curtailed or abated because they are in receipt of something else? Really, as I was saying it should not be the case. I do not know whether the Department has any discretion or control over that, but it would be very interesting to know if that is the case. Apologies for interrupting Ms Kennedy.

Ms Denise Kennedy:

Not at all. We do our very best. As I said in my opening statement, we have accessibility officers, so if there cases we have direct contact with individuals if they are finding an issue. On the Senator's specific question, I will check that and I will send the information back to the committee.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I thank the Senator for the question. I will accept the deflected praise from Ms Kennedy about the youth of assistant secretaries general. In terms of the disregards, I will check what the position is for the Senator. The way the disregards work is that it is employment income that benefits from the disregard. As far as I am aware, there is not a parallel agriculture or farming scheme that would pay for an injury. The recipient may get a social welfare payment. There is a thing called occupational injuries benefit and various other schemes. It is at the esoteric end of our schemes. I will check it out and get back to the Senator.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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If you get a grant from the Arts Council----

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I will come back to the Senator on that question separately.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Similarly, I am not talking about a payment for disability per se. For example, if you get a grant to help your hedgerows, does that impact on your disability allowance in the way that a grant from the Arts Council would? If that is the case, it should not be the case.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I know, for example-----

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is means-tested.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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It is.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That would be means-tested it, would it not?

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

There are some exceptions. I know that most farmers, rather than going on to disability allowance, are covered by farm assist, which is basically a farm variation of jobseeker's allowance. Over the last couple of years, working with colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, we have extended the list of schemes that are exempted from the means test there. We have tried to keep up with the times. The number of schemes has expanded. In the last budget we added to that list, and we expanded it in a previous budget. Generally speaking, when it comes to means-tested schemes, that is the intention. I am not 100% sure about disability allowance off the top of my head. I will come back to the Senator on that.

On the Senator's question about arts grants, we work quite closely with colleagues in the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. I was on the task force dealing with basic income, and we engage with the Department a lot in dealing with Disabled Artists, Disabled Academics, DADA, the disabled artists and academics group that Emily Conway is involved with. Basically, the way it works is that if you are an artist, whether disabled or not, and you get a grant or some sort of bursary, normally that is for a piece of work. In other words, it is equivalent to employment income. What we normally do is we look at the period of work that is due to take place, and sometimes we have to consult with the individual to get better information, and the income spread over that period. It is not the case that you get a grant and suddenly your disability allowance is cut off. For example, if you got a grant of €2,000 which, spread over the period, was going to amount to €100 a week over 20 weeks, then that would be covered by the disregard. Because we call it employment income, it can benefit from the disregard. That is how it works, whether you are on disability allowance or other means-tested payments.

On the Senator's question about making disability allowance a universal payment, at the moment disability allowance is a €2 billion payment for 150,000 people. According to figures from the 2016 census, there are 640,000 people with disabilities. We do not yet have the new figures from the most recent census, but I am assuming that number will go up. In terms of the order of magnitude, it is a quadrupling of the number. If you were to pay everyone with a disability a disability allowance regardless of their means, then that is the cohort we are talking about. It is a very large number.

On invalidity pensions, I know that the scheme is terribly complex. Effectively, disability allowance is the main means-tested scheme. Invalidity pension is the one for people with contributions. Most disabilities are acquired. In other words, if a person is working and they acquire a disability, invalidity pension is probably the payment they will go on to. When they are coming off that, they will go on to a transition payment called partial capacity benefit. I know that some of the people who appeared before the committee last week are on that payment.

The payment is given depending on the level of disability, a certain portion of it is retained and there is no income cap. People can earn as much as they like without it affecting their payments. The payments are linked to the level of disability and resulting incapacity. That payment typically lasts for 156 weeks in social welfare language, or three years, although approximately half of the people have been receiving it for more than five years. It can be extended.

The reason disability allowance is a means tested payment is that we are taking a limited pot and trying to direct it at the people who have the lowest means. It is for people who do not have an insurance record from employment that would allow them to use another scheme. There is a live debate about universal basic income, not only in the area of disability but also for carers. The Low Pay Commission, the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, and others have been working on it.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I appreciate the answer and the detail. Philosophically we saw with the payments during the Covid-19 pandemic, which were much more generous than disability allowance, that every cent of that €2 billion would be spent in the real economy. Disabled people do not hoard the money. It does not disappear. It is like Newton's Law. It is just transferred from one activity to another. Every cent would be spent in the real economy. Fairness and equality are not about treating everyone the same way. They are about recognising the difference and challenges of people with disabilities and supporting and scaffolding them. I support the detail in Mr. Hession's answer.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

The Senator made a number of points, the first of which related to people under 65 who are in nursing homes. The Ombudsman's Wasted Lives report was published and the Department of Health and the HSE are working to address the challenges in that area. They are complex. An integrated steering committee and a stakeholder reference group are in place. We sit on the stakeholder reference group and assist the Department and HSE in whatever way we can. Looking at our engagement with health, more than 1,200 individuals under 65 are resident in nursing homes. That is a significant challenge. It is because of their complex needs. For those who have to remain in nursing homes in the short to medium term, the nursing homes work on improving quality of life to the degree possible but the focus is on moving them to a step-down facility or to living in the community with a high level of support. The Department of Health will invest €5.5 million in the next two years to deliver, enhance and transition people under 65. Up to January or February 2023, 28 people had already transitioned. I think the target is for more than 63 people. In the context of the overall numbers, those targets could be higher.

The Senator highlighted the key challenge disabled people face is in the context of home supports and getting personal assistant support packages and the funding for that. In the context of the housing crisis, the HSE is challenged in the market in finding appropriate properties for step-down accommodation or for living as independently as possible in the community with the appropriate supports. The important thing is that structures and investment are in place. It will be an ongoing challenge. There is no doubt about it. We will assist as much as possible. It requires a strong whole-of-government focus. As the Senator mentioned, one in four is a high proportion of people who are homeless. They are challenged with mental health challenges which increases homelessness in the disability sector. We work directly with the Department of Health in the context of Sharing the Vision. Its strategy and ours both include the goal of delivering a better protocol under which the local authority co-ordinators and the HSE at local level are strongly engaged in ensuring they provide a clear pathway to housing for people who have mental health challenges. A national quality standards framework for homelessness services was developed by the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive. It is in operation for emergency accommodation. Revised guidelines were also developed by the Department in the context of new emergency accommodation. It is important to take into account the reality of being homeless with a disability. Under the guidelines, where existing configurations in buildings allow, measures must be considered for the needs of the homeless individual when they have to remain in emergency accommodation in the short term. The Senator made a point about disabled people being asked what needs package they have in place when they go to the local authority housing officer. It is critically important that the housing officer and the local authority are obliged to assess housing applications in the absence of any need. They will look at the application and assess whether disabled people are eligible for housing, so they can be placed on the housing list. Then it is looked at and the engagement happens with the HSE co-ordinators and the local authority who build the care and support packages for the eligible person around that. As I mentioned earlier and I think the Senator recognised, the allocations are demonstrating that people with disabilities are being allocated housing. They accounted for 15% of allocations last year which is a significant and fair share of the housing allocations.

As regards the crisis, yes we have a crisis. The terms "crisis" and "emergency" could be used in the same sentence. The important thing is that the whole-of-government approach that is in place, working with the HSE and the Department of Health and now the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and its disability unit. We are working closely together, not only from a housing perspective but also to provide complex and integrated supports. Ultimately, as the Senator is aware, the care package and the demands will increase and become more complex depending on the level of disability. The funding is certainly there for housing. In the context of Housing for All, more than €4 billion is invested annually so the crisis is not a question of funding. We have the right proportional-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I understand the semantics in the difference between crisis and emergency. For Mr. O'Sullivan and I, they are interchangeable terms, but legally, if the Cabinet declares an emergency, which it should have done a long time ago, the State would be authorised to mobilise resources in a more co-ordinated way. I heard the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, on "Morning Ireland" recently. He was under awful pressure as the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is also regularly. However, we have Army barracks around the city, in Blackhorse Avenue and Cathal Brugha Barracks in Rathmines where people who should not be on the street in tents could be put in a secure environment where they would have access to showers and accommodation. I know this could be done within seven to ten days. They could be taken off the streets and given dignity but it is not happening because an emergency has not been declared and we do not have the emergency co-ordination centre. When I did the research, I found that the body responsible for co-ordinating those responses, the national steering committee, resides in the Department. I know that is not the witness's responsibility, but I wonder if these things could happen to alleviate the emergency we are in.

Again, I use that word in the context of the Government's own architecture. When you declare something an emergency as opposed to a crisis, you can then mobilise the civil authority and all of the principal agencies and stakeholders to work together. That is the bit that has not happened yet. If we have the resources and the funding, then the question is "If not, why not?"

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

I do not agree that it has not happened yet. In the context of disability, there has been strong collaboration and that is improving under the new strategy. The Government is very much aware of this and has the arms of the State working collaboratively. We are also working with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, which the Senator has mentioned, in the context of international protection. We are doing as much as we can from our Department's perspective. The Government is fully ensuring a whole-of-government approach to delivery.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone from all of the different Departments for their input. I will come back to the issue of housing and the housing adaptation grants for people with disabilities and older people. Obviously, these grants are administered by Dublin City Council and other local authorities. My experience has been that, in many cases, the defined thresholds are too high when it comes to disability. I know of many cases where people with fairly obvious disabilities are not being assessed or looked at. There are also issues with regard to overcrowding and looking for extra space. Mr. O'Sullivan has said there is an increase in funding but I know of many cases in which people are not being properly assessed. Contrary to what he has said, I see an increase in the number of people seeking adaptations and things like that. Mr. O'Sullivan has said the amount of money and so on has been increased but I am not seeing it filtering down in the way I would like. Perhaps he could tell us a bit more about that.

The new joint national housing strategy involves co-operation and collaboration between Government Departments, the local authorities, the HSE and mental health services. What is the role of disabled persons' organisations, DPOs, and disability groups? I assume they are taken into account. Will Mr. O'Sullivan give us an idea of how that works?

We talk about housing and Mr. O'Sullivan's Department and we look at the homelessness figures, which show that almost 12,000 people are homeless, including 4,000 children. There are also 100,000 people on waiting lists. A substantial number of these people have disabilities. Does the Department have a role in tackling Government or holding it to account on something like that? There was a very significant underspend in housing. We saw that in the house building figures. That has a knock-on effect on people who have disabilities. Does the Department hold the Government to account or tackle it with regard to issues such as that underspend? I am not sure what its role is in that regard but I would have thought that this should be pointed out to Government so that it can be made aware.

Will the representatives of the Departments of Social Protection and Enterprise, Trade and Employment discuss further how their Departments work together to increase job creation and employment participation for people with disabilities? My experience in many cases has been that, while there is an obligation on local authorities, certain firms and so on to take on people with disabilities, those people generally do not get the best jobs. There is a reluctance to promote them and so on. Will the witnesses explain the role of the disability liaison officer? Does that officer have a role in tackling firms, businesses or local authorities that do not employ the proper proportion of people with disabilities? I would like to know that. If such officers do have that role, how do they engage?

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

The Deputy had a number of questions. His first question had regard to grants. For the benefit of all the members, I will mention that more than €86 million was spent on grants last year. Ultimately, almost 12,500 grants were delivered to individuals. I do not have the figures for Dublin in front of me but they are publicly available on our website. That is a significant investment and it will be followed up this year with further investment. Some €83 million has been set aside for this year.

As regards the threshold for disability in the context of the grants, there is provision for prioritisation. First priority is given to those who are terminally ill or who are mainly dependent on a family carer. That is quite clear. The adaptations help such people to leave hospital or residential care. Second priority is given to people who are somewhat more mobile but who need access to washing facilities or toilet facilities suited to a disabled person and whose ability to function independently would be diminished without such adaptations. Our third priority is people who are largely independent but who need special facilities to improve their quality of life, such as a bedroom or living space. The local authorities have clear thresholds for priority when looking at applications. They give applicants a fair assessment in that regard.

As regards the DPOs, it is important to say that, in the context of the development of the strategy and as the Deputy will be aware from reading the strategy itself, there was a very high level of deep engagement with DPOs because of their lived experience. Those representations informed the themes and approach of the strategy. The DPOs continue to engage. I mentioned earlier that we now have a national implementation steering group in operation implementing the strategy. The primary four categories are all represented around that table. They are engaging with us, the HSE, the local authorities and the approved housing bodies. The group is chaired by the Housing Agency and we participate in it. There will be a deep level of ongoing engagement as we implement the strategy over the next five years. The DPOs are fully integrated into that process.

I spoke earlier about homelessness and the challenge in that regard. In my opening address, I mentioned how we work with the HSE in the context of funding mental health tenancy sustainment officers. That is important so that people who have been provided with a housing allocation can maintain their tenancies and, if they have been taken out of homelessness, not revert back into it. We are there to provide that wraparound service and support them. That investment is there. We recognise that it is a challenge. It appears that mental health is one of the defining factors in people being challenged by homelessness. We are working to assist in that regard.

The Deputy mentioned calling the Government to account. The situation is quite the opposite. The Ministers call us to account on a daily basis with regard to ensuring that allocations are spent, recognising that there can be savings and that there may be some delays. For example, we were able to achieve savings in respect of housing and disability grants last year. This funding was therefore spent very effectively right across the country. Savings can be a good thing where they can be redistributed within the Vote and spent within a good area, particularly at the local level for people requiring these housing adaptation grants. As I mentioned, there a review of housing grants is ongoing. The report is with the Minister, who is giving it very careful consideration.

I understand that. It has been almost ten years since the housing adaptation grants were reviewed. We have to look at the thresholds, which is being done, and the level of the grant. There is no doubt about that. I would expect the Minister will make advances shortly. The work is done, however. It must now give careful consideration to ensure the funding is supporting it.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but it is also the issue of what the terms are. For instance, I deal with people with autism who may need extra accommodation or otherwise whom the local authority, Dublin City Council, does not deem a priority. They are continually shot down. That whole system on how a judgment is made and who is a priority needs to be reviewed. I know Mr. O'Sullivan is talking about the priority list, etc.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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By and large, the local authorities do a good job but there is certainly a huge deficit there when it comes to people with disabilities in terms of getting more things done and expanding that definition. It is much more widespread than we think.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

I fully recognise that. The challenge is that because we are prioritising people who have the greatest need, then the majority who are arguably a step down tend to be pushed down. The review will address that particular issue. In that context, I believe significant funding going forward will be necessary. That will, however, be a budgetary matter for the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Government in due course.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I will lead out on the Deputy's question about employers, and my colleague from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment will pick up anything I have missed or anything from that side. Generally speaking, we engage with employers. Our primary customers are obviously those who get income supports, but we have an employer relations unit that works directly with employers. In other words, we run recruitment campaigns, hold interviews in our Intreo offices and go out on the ground to meet them and explain what we do. A big part of that is trying to work with employers to hire disabled people, which we do in a number of ways. We have a number of incentives, such as the wage subsidy scheme. The employer gets €6.30 per hour up to €9.45 per hour. I must apologise, Chair. In the briefing note, we said the higher rate applies when the number is above three staff members. It should say 23 staff members. I will just correct that for the record. That is the higher rate. We also have JobsPlus where, effectively, employers can recruit somebody on disability allowance and get between €10,000 or €15,000 per year. There are significant subsidies, therefore, but there is a very low take-up.

We want to get to a place with employers where we can say that many people in receipt of our payments have the talents and abilities they are looking for. Employers can tell us what they are looking for and we will put the right people in front of them. Some of them may have disabilities and we have many supports to get over any concerns or issues that may raise. We want to make sure it goes beyond this, however. Sometimes, it gets stuck and becomes a small conversation in a small room about a small number of vacancies under corporate social responsibility. That speaks to the Deputy's point about low level or entry level jobs as opposed to career progression and decision-making roles, etc.

As I said, most disabilities are acquired. People have significant work histories and had successful careers before their disabilities. We try to work with employers. There is an openness there, especially at the moment, perhaps, with very low levels of unemployment. Employers are more open for business than perhaps would have been the case previously. We sort of work in a countercyclical way. When they are looking for people, we do not have that many people and when they are not looking for people, we have loads of people. It is, therefore, always that balance when we are working with them. However, we try to maintain the relationships so that we can work with them throughout the cycle.

The Deputy asked about percentages and the disability liaison officers. My understanding of that role, certainly with our Department and I think other Departments are the same, is that it is primarily a contact point for issues. For example, we have customers who require the assistance of access officers. In other words, if a person has a problem with either access to our premises or perhaps our online content or forms, that contact point can navigate the bureaucracy on his or her behalf. They do not so much have a role in terms of pressing employers from a compliance point of view. I am open to correction on this but I understand that the 3% requirement is in the public sector; I am not sure. From a private sector point of view, I do not think that percentage applies. Again, however, I am open to correction, although many do aim for those targets. My colleague, Mr. Maher, might wish to supplement that response.

Mr. John Maher:

I thank the Deputy for the questions. I will supplement some of the points made by Mr. Hession. The disability liaison officers in the Department organise work placements for people with disabilities, specifically the willing able mentoring, WAM, project, and promote the interests of staff with disabilities. They liaise with external experts, such as the National Disability Authority, to research best practice. There is a disability liaison officer network across government to try to establish best practice.

I mentioned earlier what Enterprise Ireland and the IDA are doing in terms of employer engagement and outreach. Similar to my colleague, I do not believe there is a private sector employment target for persons with disabilities so I cannot speak to that.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. Something that comes across every week when people with lived experience and groups appear before the committee is that there is an innate lack of ambition by Departments for people with disabilities. We so often see barriers and a lack of integration. We see so many issues. That is not to say great work is not being done. I am saying that perhaps the emphasis is in the wrong areas. On that note, I want to ask each Department how it objectively analyses its performance with regard to implementing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD? As officials, how do the witnesses rank or rate themselves? How do they go through the actual document to see how we create a more equitable society as opposed to a more equal one? Can they highlight successes? I know there are good examples in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for sure because accessibility grants for tractors are available to people. There is clearly ambition in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and I see that.

Have any of the officials partaken in disability equity training? Have they got their staff - the people who are employed by the State to create policy - to partake in training? We are talking about how the officials are here to implement policy. However, they write the policy. It is for us to scrutinise that policy but the officials in the Departments write and drive the policy internally from their Departments. We all have a very important role. We cannot pass it on from one to another. Have the people who are supposed to be writing policy for disability inclusion or inclusion in general partaken in any disability equity training or accessibility training? Is there any awareness with regard to that lived experience or do we just farm it out to the different groups and wait for report analysis? I have so many questions but we will go through those first.

Ms Denise Kennedy:

I thank the Senator for her questions. As regards my own background, I have been a HR practitioner for 28 years and I have worked in a range of organisations. I can say from a Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine perspective that this is about engaging with all the schemes that are available. In terms of looking at the UNCRPD and raising awareness, we have 4,000 staff within our organisation. We have advocates right through the organisation with their own personal stories and it is very important to hear those.

We set up the equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, forum that was launched by the Secretary General in 2019. We engage where there are programmes. The success with programmes is building that confidence with the individuals on those programmes to get to know the organisation they are coming to and working with the Public Appointments Service and the programmes the Department of Social Protection have set up. It is those engagements where both get to try each other out. Regarding the fact that programmes now have pathways into permanent roles, we want to engage with more of that. That is where the success is because it takes down those barriers.

Regarding the disability liaison piece, that person in each organisation is there to break down the barriers. It is normally for those who are in engaging into the organisation first. My experience has been that the positive influence that this individual coming into an organisation has on the team, the community and his or her family tells a story that others can then leverage. We are very ambitious to engage with these programmes. The Houses of the Oireachtas led on a programme as well. Our intentions are to be engaged in all of those programmes that are coming. We worked with KARE and other organisations. The job shadowing programme paused during Covid but is now back. Again, that programme allows people to engage into our organisation. Our arms are open to that.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

Overall, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is leading on the implementation plan with regard to the UNCRPD and I am sure that plan will have metrics in terms of cross-Government work on which we will have to report across-----

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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We talk about the lead Department but the Department of Social Protection is the lead when it comes to social protection; the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is the lead when it comes to agriculture; the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is the lead when it comes to enterprise; and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is the lead when it comes to housing. We hear this type of fobbing off constantly - "it is the lead Department". We are all the lead. We all have the responsibility. We signed up. Every Department signed up and all of them have a responsibility to review their own stuff and not fob it off to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I accept that and I said that in my opening statement. I made that clear in the first paragraph. The overall metrics to accompany the UNCRPD must be put in place in the implementation plan. From my Department's perspective, the key metrics are primarily those in the survey on income and living conditions, SILC, such as poverty measurements regarding consistent poverty, deprivation or the risk of poverty rates. The rates are significantly elevated for disabled people compared to the rest of the population. You also see that the poverty reduction effect of income transfers is 63%. What that means is that for the population at large, which has a risk of poverty rate of 13%, without income supports from our Department, it would have been 37%. Apart from Finland, we are the country with the heaviest reliance on income supports. In other words, the social welfare system is doing the heavy lifting - more so than almost any other country in Europe.

The other issue is around participation rates. The participation rate in work for people with disabilities is roughly half of what it is for the rest of the population. We have a part to play in that. We do not control who is in employment. however. We need employers to come with us on that. It is a broader whole-of-government issue. I agree that we all have to play our part in that.

Regarding the question on training, I have looked at it. It is a module run across the Civil Service. It is very easy to do. Our teams have also done it. We also have personal employment advisers in respect of disability in all our Intreo centres. We have a pilot that was a grassroots proposal from our own staff on the ground in Limerick for an autism sensory room. In other words, when we are discussing claims with customers with an autism diagnosis, we have a room that has been designed for their needs. That is being put in place in each new office as we upgrade our Intreo offices across the country.

Mr. John Maher:

I echo what Ms Kennedy said in terms of my Department regarding uptake and the availability of it. The WAM programme is a real benchmark of what we are doing and is always oversubscribed. The experience has been really positive in terms of persons in our workplace. It is a whole-of-government response. The committee would acknowledge that. The Senator is right. It is for each Department to assess its own process so the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment does not look to fob it off on the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth or say "that's not for us".

You could say that the employment gap would be a key metric for us so we have to see what the new census data tells us there. Another metric would be the rate of self-employed persons. In that regard, the comparison is very good in that the rate is almost equal if not higher among disabled people. There does need to be increased awareness and the work of this committee helps drive that across the system. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, is very committed to this area.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

Regarding how we objectively assess, in the first instance, we are building on the previous national housing strategy since 2011, which was extended out to 2021, so we will be objectively assessing ourselves against the now-published strategy for 2022 to 2027. Disabled people's organisations and the disability sector have informed and dictated the strategy to us, by and large. To me, that is an enormous success on the part of the Department but it is a joint strategy. It is the Department working with the Departments of Health and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. That is the key success.

We had the building blocks in place from the national level down to the local level so we have our strategy in place and have the buy-in. Having that buy-in is critical. You cannot deliver at the local level without buy-in at national level from these organisations, which understand on a daily basis what their members have to deal with and the challenges they face.

At local level and in a broader context, we have the housing delivery action plans. In parallel with them, under the strategy, we have our local strategic plans for the delivery of disabled people's housing. Importantly, the housing and disability steering groups are the greatest success. They started under the previous strategy and are being carried forward under the new strategy. They are being enhanced. Although the terms of reference of these groups will be reviewed at local level, they are led out by the director of services but you are also talking about senior co-ordinators from the HSE. Again, the disability organisations are participating at national and local level. The success lies in a joined-up approach. It is not just a whole-of-Government approach. It is a whole-of-society approach. We will continue with this. I have provided statistics regarding housing allocations. Almost 58,000 households were assessed as qualifying for housing support last year, of which almost 5,000 were deemed to have one of the four disabilities. Within that, about 3,800 had a specific need-based disability and of these, 1,000 could access standard housing. We learn about and understand that from the ground up, which is so important. The success is that we have that joined-up collaborative approach and we are delivering.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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There are no clear metrics regarding how we are evaluating success. The Departments are working on them but there is no "this is what we want. This is how we are going to get there". I will stay with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Mr. O'Sullivan said very clearly that we have the Housing for All strategy.

There is a whole part of that dealing with housing for people with disabilities. I have seen in some housing strategies for local authorities that disabled persons' housing is in with elderly persons' housing. It is a specific part that is special and is not in with the housing of the general population. Clann is doing great work in putting elderly housing in with the general population, but I do not see it in local authority housing. I have seen a few examples of that. What are the Departments doing to make sure housing is inclusive and accessible for everybody, as opposed to this estate being for people with disabilities, that one being for people who are elderly, having people in little boxes and not being inclusive?

I have raised a particular matter question many times at this committee and elsewhere. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is in charge of local authorities. I have highlighted over and over that there are staff in local authorities who are not getting access to reasonable accommodation because management in those authorities state that reasonable accommodation needs a business case and that the relevant staff member has to write down why they are worth an investment. If they do not reach the imaginary bar management puts up, they do not get a reasonable accommodation. Reasonable accommodation should be accessible to everybody, as opposed to just the private sector. We should not have discrimination in our public sector. It is not the same for every local authority and Department, but it comes down to personality and to who the line manager is. That cruelty should end quick smart.

Our local authorities are the first port of call for inclusive communities. We see time and again that we do not have clear policies on accessible public realm projects, such as playgrounds. Investments in really good playgrounds are not 100% inclusive and accessible. We do not have mandatory Changing Places toilets. At the stroke of a pen, the Department could dictate that local authorities must put these in place if they are upgrading facilities. If upgrading a playground, for example, they would have to do that. In the long term, this would result in a cost saving and would be a beneficial way to spend money.

On social welfare, there are reasonable accommodation grants but not one cent was drawn down from the employee retention grant in 2019, 2020 or 2021. There is talk of review of schemes and surely three years in a row without drawdown requires an immediate response. There is something wrong with that grant; it is not working. Does the Department ever look at the outcomes for recipients of grants? Does it look at the rigidity of those grants? In reality, they place people in perpetual poverty. Emilie Conway is discouraged from taking up grants, to value her work or to put herself where she wants to be, because it will be taken off her disability allowance or whatever. People end up unable to afford to work.

In enterprise, there are no specific supports for self-employed people with disabilities. There is no fund. The Government and State have recognised there is a huge cost to disability. There are grants for entrepreneurs but there is no grant to acknowledge that it is very difficult for someone with a disability to get a leg up. It is about equity in the system instead of equality.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

The Senator referred to local authorities delivering for disabled people in the community. An important document was the design manual for quality housing, which we published in January 2022. That deals with site layouts and internal layouts in individual dwellings, not just for local authorities but also for AHBs. There is a consistent approach nationally between local authorities and AHBs. It provides clear guidance for the local authorities on integrating it into a community development. It gives clear examples. It is there for them at a national level and, when projects are submitted to the Department, the Department assesses them against those guidelines. It is clear there is a place for the proper integration, as well as the actual house with regard to meeting universal design principles. That is a key element of the guidance, so that the internal house is designed to be used throughout one’s life. It could be where someone acquires a disability as they progress through life or later in life in particular.

On assessing and providing housing for disability and applying for it, it is open to everyone with a disability, as with anyone, to fill out an application form for social housing. That will be assessed by the local authority on the basis of eligibility. Thereafter, it looks at if a level of care is needed. Then the engagement happens. There may not be care. People with disability access a house and may have family with them or may not need any particular level of care. As the level of care increases, the level of engagement with the HSE increases. That co-ordination is critical. There is the investment in the housing but equally the investment in the personal health and support services. That can be challenging but the mechanisms are in place.

The Senator mentioned the context of an individual in local authority. My experience of local authorities is they are excellent delivery partners. We cannot do anything without the local authorities as delivery partners. There are excellent people working across local authorities. They are bound by public sector duty, as we are. They operate on the basis of fairness, justice and getting people access to what is provided for through national investment distributed locally.

As regards the wider realm, an initiative came from a particular sector in the disability organisations with regard to public changing facilities. The Department is working to advance that, as are our colleagues on the building regulation side and the local authorities that are in a position to do so. The public facilities that are provided are accessible for all. Local authorities have a direct responsibility under the Disability Act.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Senator. With regard to the social welfare aspects and the employee retention grant, that is a demand-led scheme. There is no budget cap on that, and it can be drawn down and used. We promote it in our employer relations. We have run national media advertising campaigns to drum up interest. As I said in my opening statement, we have reviewed the reasonable accommodation fund. That is one of the constituent grants under that. We had a very good response from employees, DPOs and employers, and in fact, we extended the consultation process, because we had quite a significant amount of interest. That review is close to finalisation. The scheme is not working. It is not being used, it is clunky, and it is not getting traction out there, so we have had to have a rethink. We got some money in the budget to help us support and broaden the grant, so we hope to be publishing that shortly. Getting the rigidity is a bit of a problem, but I think we will overcome that.

On the means testing, the way it works with regards to the Arts Council grants, is that the grants and bursaries are typically for a piece of work or a project. In other words, they are analogous to employment earnings, and so what we do is spread it over the period. It is not that if someone gets a €2,000 grant and then we say, well they will lose their disability allowance, DA. We will spread it over the period of the work. In most cases, that means that the disregard can wipe out a significant portion, or at least a reasonable allowed portion of the income, and not affect the payment. It is a feature of means-testing systems, that if somebody does get employment, I think we do have to factor it in.

I know the Senator directed a question to my colleague around self-employment. A lot of our supports to the self-employed, so a lot of the reasonable accommodation grants are available to the self-employed. The back to work enterprise allowance is available for self-employed disabled people as well.

Mr. John Maher:

I thank the Senator for the question. As the Senator knows herself, the local enterprise offices, LEOs are the one-stop shops for anyone looking to start a business. There are training courses, mentoring, and financial assistance available, and those programmes are open to all. In addition, those services are complemented by a range of NGO-affiliated pieces. For example, the LEOs partner with Technological University Dublin on an initiative for entrepreneurship for persons with disabilities. Enterprise Ireland, EI also participates with Open Doors, similarly encouraging entrepreneurship for persons with disabilities.

With regard to the Department, in 2022 we published a report which we had commissioned by the OECD on increasing inclusive entrepreneurship in Ireland, and I think that is a very important report. The committee will be aware of this, but entrepreneurship is a really good path for persons with disabilities to enter the labour market. The rate is not bad. The census shows it to be 14.8%, while the overall rate is 14.1%. However, there are actions which the Department is now taking in terms of strengthening entrepreneurship training for people from underrepresented groups. We are creating a referral system for training courses targeted at specific groups. We will adopt content and method of delivery of the LEO entrepreneurship training and mentoring programmes to suit the needs of different groups in consultation with the representative bodies. We also will roll out standardised training for trainers and mentors in working on diversity and with underrepresented groups. This is an area that is receiving attention and while the list of supports we have there is not exhaustive, it is accessible to all and it is being refined, so there is a balance there.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I thank the Chair, and everybody who came in and made their contributions. I will not go back on any old ground. I want to run a few things by the witnesses, first of all in the area of housing supports.

First, I want to say that the local authorities, including Galway County Council in particular, which I deal with all the time, are absolutely fantastic in what they do regarding the administration and inspections, and getting the money out to people for housing adaptation and mobility aids grants. The work which they do is absolutely unbelievable and unfortunately, the demand is increasing, but they are actually coping with that.

As an example of an area I think is missed, a family has a child has been diagnosed with a disability, which will be ongoing. They are selling their house to build a new house, and to have it built for the purposes of this child, for their lives. I do not believe there are any grants available in that case. Maybe there are, but it is a gap where I cannot find any funding, whereas if they were adapting their own house, they would get some funding towards that. Where that cannot be done, it is important that some sort of support be made available to somebody building a new house, which is built to suit the needs of their family.

For the Department of Social Protection, I have one issue. I will give an example of a man with a disability who is in receipt of a disability allowance. On getting married, he loses his disability allowance because his wife is working. In my books, that is wrong. Anybody who is getting a disability allowance or payment does so because they have a disability. The fact that a person gets married does not mean that the disability has gone away. It is an example of something I would say is just not right. We can talk about all the things we want but anyone who has a disability, regardless of his or her circumstances, should be entitled to get the disability allowance or payment. The circumstances of such people have not changed, other than that they got married. They would have been better off if they never got married, never said anything, and held on to their entitlements. That is wrong, so the witnesses might comment on that.

To return to the issue of Emily Conway, who has articulated this to us, it is not just about Ms Conway but about a lot of people in the artistic field who find, where they get a bursary and win a prize or whatever, that it is taken into account. It restrains them from getting themselves involved in exploring things and challenging themselves. They feel that were they to win something or to get a bursary, it would affect their basic payments and it might affect their medical card or something else down the road. We need to have a recognition that where a person as a disability and is an artist, we should actually do the opposite. We should encourage them to flourish.

With regard to the LEADER programme, I would say that it is a great programme, and Galway Rural Development administered the last one in north Galway, which is my area. It has built up great expertise right across many aspects of life, community life and whatever else. It is hugely proactive in all things. There is the issue of farming and encouraging farmers to create enterprises like gardening tunnels, where they bring in people with disabilities. This would not be tokenism, but people could actually gain skills and earn money. We need to encourage that more, and in the next round of LEADER, we should be driving that, in order that people with disabilities, who are into that area and like that type of work, are encouraged. We should also encourage the farmers and farm families to get involved, and ensure they are supported more to put in the investment, so we can create something like that. Again, the LEADER programme has been very good for rural Ireland and I want to acknowledge that.

Finally, I will go back to the child I know who was born blind. The child is now progressing to secondary school. Every time they have to apply for something new or must do something, they have to go back and prove that the child is still blind. They have to start from scratch and prove over and over again that nothing has changed. The diagnosis on day one was that this child will never be anything other than blind. Why must somebody, who has a disability which is going to be with them for the rest of his or her life, produce all the doctors' reports? Why do such people have to do everything again? This is where the all-of-government approach comes in. The information is either in the HSE, the Department of Social Protection, or wherever it is, but that person should have a badge to say: "We have a free pass here. We do not have to prove ourselves again."

If anything were to be taken from my humble contribution, it is that they might consider that as something that would give an awful lot of relief to a lot of people and parents in this country who have, or work with, disabilities. I know everybody is doing their best.

I think especially of children who get a diagnosis. There is great joy when they are born, and then something might be found wrong. There is a huge coping challenge for the parents themselves, who might now have something long term to deal with. As politicians and as Departments, we need to understand that we need to give these parents every help along the way. We should not be putting barriers in the way. As I have said, there are great examples of things that have been done very well. We need to try and be best in class, in every Department and across government. It is not easy. Sometimes there are money constraints. Right now, people will tell you that we are flush with money and can do whatever we want. We cannot really. We need to look at people with disabilities in the era we are now in, where there might be a little extra money. I hope, when the Minister does the review of grants, that he will increase the income thresholds and the amounts available. That is not a criticism. With construction inflation and the more complex situations that arise, it is best that we help people.

Coming from a construction background I know it is a lot easier to build a purpose-built facility from scratch than to try to retrofit it later. We need to look at universal design, in the private and public sector, when it comes to how we are building our housing and other buildings in the future. On employability, I find that is one of the barriers for people in wheelchairs. They would love to work in such a place. They check with the employer, and the employer would love to have them. However, they are upstairs and they have no lift or disabled toilet. Those barriers still exist across the area. We need to encourage employers to improve their workplaces so they can be universally accessible.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

The Deputy specifically referenced the housing adaptation grant for people with a disability. All of those grant applications are obviously assessed in the context of occupational therapist reports, and local authorities can make contribution toward the cost of that. The maximum grant is currently €30,000, or 95% of the total cost. That is the case of homes built more than 12 months ago. It also provides for a maximum grant for houses built less than 12 months ago, so they are effectively new. It is almost up to 50%.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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In the interests of clarity, is there a grant for somebody who is going to build a house next year?

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

As I understand it, that includes new builds.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I would like to get details on that.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

We will come back to the Deputy on that. His point is well taken in the context of universal design, particularly applying it to housing construction. The building regulations encourage construction to be in line with the principles of universal design. That is important. As I mentioned earlier, our guidelines for social housing also promote its development in line with the principles of universal design.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

The Deputy's first question was about a person who lost their disability allowance when they got married. I am afraid it is a feature of the means test that it is done on a household basis. It is not so much the marriage as the fact that they are living together in the same household. Even if they were not married but were cohabiting, it would be the same. The means testing is there to try and target scarce resources and that, if there is other income in the house, the income need reflects that and that reflects the payment. That is a feature. I know it is also an issue that has come up with carers where people give up work to care for someone and find their partner's income is taken into account. It is difficult and I appreciate that. We had our national carers forum yesterday, so we met with carers directly and not just the representative groups. Many carers attended and we heard first hand of the difficulties that creates for them.

On the arts issue, I know that has been raised and it is one a number of members of the committee have an interest in. We do not operate the social welfare system on a sectoral basis. Whether a person is self-employed as a website designer and gets a two-month contract for €2,000, or is a musician, performer or writer who gets a bursary from the Arts Council, we need to make sure we do not have differential treatment just based on the sector that person is in. Whether a person is working in IT, publishing, music or farming, income is income. We try to stretch it over the period of the work so it does not arrive in a lump and distort the picture of the person's income. The basic income for artists was intended to try to address some of the unevenness those in the arts face, where they will have a short period of work followed by fallow periods. The intention was to try to stretch that. That is not being led by us but by the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. It is trying to address it and give that sort of stability. It is on a pilot project with quite a small number of people.

The Deputy also mentioned a report for a child born with blindness. I did not pick up whether that was a general question on the way information passports through the system or whether the Deputy had a particular case. I do not know whether the parents had a claim or whether it had come up in the context of a claim. Domiciliary care allowance sounds like the most likely payment, but it would be unusual to have regular requests like that.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It comes up constantly, especially with young children. Every time they go to get some other improvement to their lives they have to prove themselves again. It comes up fairly regularly where they have to produce all of these reports every time they are doing something, and they need to have them up to date. They have to go back to the consultants and look for the reports. It is something where there should be a pass or a badge to say they have a permanent disability. They should not have to prove they have it when going from one place or one Department to another for whatever it is.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I understand the Deputy's point. It is something we are engaged in. As Departments we are engaged and see each other in different forums and interdepartmental groups. We all accept the weaknesses in the system. We all have our own story and policies. The weakness is often the connection or flow from the individual customer's point of view. The confusion within the bureaucracy is not their problem and we should do more to make that easier for them. I hope I have addressed the social welfare aspects.

Ms Denise Kennedy:

I just want to note Deputy Canney's support for the Leader programme. I thank him for that and will take it back.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I will say finally that the issue we are talking about is disabilities and disability matters. It is important that all of us in the room continue to fight for the fact that, while we have systems and we have to be for everybody, people with disabilities should be positively discriminated towards in terms of the access and supports they need. I thank the witnesses.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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I do not have many questions. I have one question from listening to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Honest to god I have to say I believe, looking in from the outside and working with organisations like the Independent Living Movement, that we are continuing to fail people with disabilities in this country. I know that it is not the fault of workers and people in the Department. It is the system that was probably there long before any of them. I want to say that first of all. It is nothing personal when I make some of these comments.

Something that came to my attention over the past few months, through being a member the autism committee, is having a park in every part of the country, and in every area, for children with disabilities. I have contacted our local authority in County Donegal to look for a park in Ardara. I was told there is a park for children with disabilities in Dungloe, which is 30 miles from Ardara. Families have to travel those 30 miles to bring their children to a local park that can meet the needs of their children. How do we make it happen that every park in the country is made suitable for children who are autistic or have other disabilities? It would be a very simple measure towards inclusion and for children with abilities to be able to participate in their communities. That would be one way of doing it.

Do we know the number of homeless people with disabilities who are on the waiting list for houses? Again, this is in the context of future-proofing local communities for children with disabilities.

On employment, it is ironic that more than 12 people from the Departments are present but not one - prove me wrong - has a disability. We are talking about employment and employing people with disabilities, yet we are not looking closer to home in Leinster House or the Departments. We need to open up doors, invite people in and have people with disabilities working with us. Again, it is about "nothing about us without us". It is ironic we do not have a person from the Department with a disability to speak to us.

I will not repeat what other people said, but we are genuinely failing people with disabilities in this country around employment and housing. I welcome the leadership programme that is running in rural Ireland. It is an opportunity for people with disabilities to be able to get out and be employed in their local areas, in farming or whatever it may be.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

While my primary focus is housing for disabled people, the Senator is moving into the wider realms of investment in parks, which very much rests with local authorities in the wider context of their responsibilities under the Disability Act. The way to address it is continual emphasis on the reapportionment of funding so that it delivers where challenges are being met. Beyond that, the fact it is being highlighted as an issue means that when we are working with local authorities, we can bring that message back to understand better how they take account of the issue, particularly as regards autistic children, who depend quite heavily on this.

With regard to homelessness, approximately 25% of the homeless are people with disabilities. As I mentioned, it is driven by a high proportion, as I understand it, of people with mental health challenges. Therefore, we have to focus our efforts on addressing where the specific need is. We worked with the HSE on providing funding for tenancy sustainment officers because of that high proportion of homeless people with a disability who have a mental health issue.

Ms Denise Kennedy:

I thank the Senator for her question. On who is present today, many disabilities are silent. A disability could be emotional or psychological; it may not be physical. Even when it comes to measuring the percentage of people with disabilities, it is not about looking around a room. Some of us may have disabilities that are silent. The other piece is that it is quite a personal thing for individuals. Managing that is about being supportive and inclusive for everybody, whether they want to say they have a label or want to carry it personally. I wanted to make that point.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
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From talking to people with disabilities, many people do not look at their disability as a label. I just want to make Ms Kennedy aware of that as well.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask a few questions, if that is okay. All the members present have come in at this stage.

On housing, I brought up the matter of the national housing strategy for disabled people with the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy O'Donnell, yesterday. I was assured the implementation plan would be published within a few weeks, which I hope it will. I am interested in one of the answers that was given to Deputy Canney, which indicated that grants were available for new-build houses. Why is there a grant for new-build houses? Do we not have a target that all new builds will be fully accessible to a universal design, UD++, standard? Are there plans within the implementation plan and strategy to review Part M guidelines? Many of the houses being built now are only built to a wheelchair-visitable rather than a wheelchair-livable standard, and they need to be reviewed. All houses should be built to a wheelchair-livable standard, but certainly a percentage need to be fully accessible so that we will not actually need grants. It is more cost-effective in the long term if new houses are built to a certain standard instead of trying to adapt houses at a later stage.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

The Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has been engaging intensively with us on the implementation plan. He has recently approved that plan so we can engage externally with his colleagues, the Minister for Health and the Minister of State with responsibility for disability. The Minister expects to be in a position to have that plan published within the next number of weeks.

As regards universal design, and the Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned UD++, there are different ranges, namely, UD, UD+ and UD++. When we move into the realms of UD++, we are essentially talking about, for example, a wheelchair-livable property. That means, if the property is two-storey, it can be accessed in its entirety. In the case of UD++, we are talking about a case-by-case assessment and building the house to that specification, or adapting a house as necessary, because the entire population does not need that standard. I recognise what the Leas-Chathaoirleach is saying in the context of building to UD standards but there are obviously costs involved in that. We have to strike a right balance in not reducing the delivery of housing generally, in particular to the disabled community. That is why the current approach is to integrate the UD principles and move it to the extent possible. Over time, we will come to a position where houses will be built for life, but it will not happen overnight. It will take time.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is why I asked whether the Department has set a target of a percentage to start with. When I deal with the local authority in the area where I live, often people have accidents and suddenly the house does not suit their needs. Sometimes, they cannot even be discharged from hospital as a result, which means they are taking up beds. The council has no houses available that suit their needs. In fact, I hear from the Irish Wheelchair Association that there is nothing on the private market to suit wheelchair users. A very low number of houses are being built for wheelchair users as it is. That is why we see so many people going into nursing homes. The number of people in nursing homes aged under 65 is not decreasing because we are continuing to put people into nursing homes due to the lack of availability of suitable accommodation.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

Absolutely. However, it is important to point out that the most recent published summary of social housing assessments for 2022, referenced the inclusion on the application form of whether an applicant wants access to a wheelchair-livable house or not. Interestingly enough, no one sought a wheelchair-accessible house.

However, that is not unusual because it was only added to the application form last year. We will see over time as they review all people who are on their social housing list. The summary of social housing assessments is something to watch closely in the coming years. We have that clear identifier; therefore, we would be able to pinpoint where there is an exact need.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Many people do not know they are going to need a wheelchair. That is the problem. Any one of us could end up needing one after an accident.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan:

I understand.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Circumstances can change. There is such a low proportion of houses that are suitable for those who require a wheelchair, and it may not even just be a wheelchair; it may be someone who cannot use stairs but can walk to a certain extent.

On employment, there are reasonable accommodations for employers to apply for. Can the system be reviewed so that it is the employee who receives the reasonable accommodations and that they follow the person? In committee meetings, disability passports have been mentioned to us several times. That is where the person is assessed with what they need and they bring the reasonable accommodations they need with them to the job. It would allow them to move from job to job much more seamlessly. At the moment, every time somebody moves to a new position, the employer has to apply for the reasonable accommodations that the person may require. In education, for example, if a student in primary school applies for a form of assistive technology, that follows them into secondary school - it is supposed to, anyway - and probably into third level as well. Could something similar happen within employment?

Mr. John Maher:

I wish to come in on the employment piece and perhaps Mr. Hession might come in on passporting through the system. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, and IBEC have developed a passport effectively for going between jobs. I understand that it is highly useful so a person is not restarting every time. The committee might be interested in the use and take-up of that particular passport that ICTU and IBEC developed. That is the only thing I wanted to say.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The UK has an access programme and I think that is part of it. It has something good. There is no point in reinventing the wheel, so we should look at other jurisdictions and see what they are using and what is working and replicating it here. We need to increase the number of disabled people who are employed. We have one of the lowest levels in Europe and one of the highest poverty rates. They are obviously interlinked. Under the comprehensive employment strategy, the Government has committed to increasing it to 38% by 2024 from 33% at the moment. That is a lot of people and that is only next year. There is much work required to try to encourage people to get into the workplace.

We also hear as well that one of the reasons that people do not take up employment is the fear of losing secondary benefits such as the medical card and the free travel pass. Could it ensure that they hold onto those be looked at? The cost of disability is expensive and part of that is transport and part is medical costs. If they were able to have a medical card for life and a free travel pass, it would encourage many more people to take up employment.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

To add to Mr. Maher’s first point, Senator McGreehan earlier asked about the reasonable accommodation fund. The assistive technology that people get under that is theirs to bring to their new job. There is probably a widescale misunderstanding about that. It is part of the problem we have with that scheme. People do not understand how it works and that is reflected in the very low take-up. We are reviewing that and the review is pretty much complete at this stage. We just need to bring the Minister through it and get her agreement to it. That will be coming forward soon.

We looked at the UK. The UK has a much bigger scheme but there is much we can copy from it. There was a very good summit in Belfast last September, I think, called the Harkin Summit. Senator Harkin brought in the US’s disability equality Act. It was a huge international summit with participants from around the world. Everyone has struggled with participation rates. Ours is 36.5% or thereabouts. We are aiming for 38%. The OECD average is about 40%, so we are a way off that. Some of that it is that there are slow exits from disability allowance to employment but also it is a percentage. In other words, our labour force increased enormously so the percentage shift is a mathematical thing. The Leas-Cathaoirleach is right that the participation rate is too low, the poverty rate is too high and the cost of disability is too high. We cannot stay where we are.

In terms of the technology, certainly it can travel. On the access to work, we are trying to take what we can and learn so we can make it much more user-friendly. The Leas-Cathaoirleach made another point but I did not take a note of it.

One of the things in respect of the passporting and why it is helpful that ICTU and IBEC are doing it is that there are 645,000 or thereabouts disabled people, only a fraction of whom are on our payments. Something that comes up is whether we have a tendency to think of disability in social welfare terms but most people who have a disability have a work history and are working. There are good prospects with the right supports. That is part of what the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, is about. It is about society changing rather than just relying on the individual changing.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There needs to be more flexibility across our systems and more co-operation across Departments.

The wage subsidy scheme kind of has a negative connotation because the employer is focusing on the person’s inefficiencies or deficiencies. There are some employers that are not willing to say that the is person working for them because of their disability. Can the focus be changed on that when applying for it?

On self-employment, the point is often made to me that there is nothing similar to the wage subsidy scheme for self-employed people. An employer employing a disabled person can avail of a wage subsidy scheme. However, if you are employing yourself, basically, there are no supports additional to what any other self-employed person can avail of.

There is also a threshold of I think 21 hours around the subsidy scheme - I am open to correction on that. Again, not all disabled people are able to work 21 hours. It would be good if we could allow for part-time work as well. Some people, due to pain or other reasons, such as tiredness, cannot work 21 hours in the week. They could perhaps work ten or 15 hours. Perhaps the scheme could be staggered in relation to the number of hours worked and have a bit of flexibility.

We made that point in respect of education as well. Not everybody is able to take up a full-time course at, for example, higher education, so should consider offering it over an extended number of years on a part-time basis. That is starting to happen in many courses. Perhaps the same could be done in employment as well.

Mr. R?n?n Hession:

I remember the Leas-Cathaoirleach’s other point now, which was around secondary benefits. I will deal with that as well. On the wage subsidy scheme, I agree with her point around the language. It is pitched around there being basically a deficit in productivity that the subsidy is attempting to address. That characterises it immediately in a negative way. We will review that scheme later this year. We increased the basic subsidy from €5.30 to €6.30 an hour I think two budgets ago. It goes up €9.45, depending. With a minimum wage of €11.30, that is a significant subsidy. We will look at the minimum. To be honest, we do not want to find that the only employment we get for disabled people is where the State is effectively paying for it or that it ends up being low hours, insecure and with no prospects. That was the original thinking behind having the 21-hour threshold. In other words, a commitment is expected from the employer. However, we do not want that to then be excluding the person.

It is that balance but we will look at that data this year. The RAF is the first one we will get done and then we will go on to do the WSS and we will have a consultation on it. We will be talking to everyone about that.

On the secondary benefits, we had a meeting with the OECD recently where we tried to determine what is the best approach in terms of policies. Regarding secondary benefits, back as far as 2007 or 2008 the OECD said that unless we addressed that issue, we would have a lot of difficulty. We have made changes on a few fronts. People can keep the free travel for five years now and can keep the medical card for three years. We have also significantly increased the disregard. It used to be €120 but now it is €427. When the former Deputy, Finian McGrath, was a Minister for State, the disregard was increased.

I am not sure what the answer is on that, to be honest, because what do we do? Do we say to people that they can keep their secondary benefits forever? Perhaps for some people, because of the nature of their disability, they do need to keep them forever. However, there are resource implications if we do that so does that mean fewer people get the benefits? Does it mean that there are significant additional benefits that only some people are getting? Even with the best will in the world, once there are a lot of secondary benefits attached to a payment, there is a big risk to leaving that payment. It is a leap of faith, even if the person wants to and it is the best thing to do, financially. Health outcomes can be better when people are in employment. It is difficult because on the one hand, we want to support the person when they have a need but if they are able to move off the payment, they are giving up a lot. To be honest, it is a topic that has to be looked at interdepartmentally. It applies across numerous areas. As was said earlier, the housing support grant has a means threshold, as does the SUSI grant, the fuel allowance, the travel allowance, and the medical card. It is a delicate balance and I am not sure what the answer is actually.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to raise one last point. All of our guests have given us an indication of how their respective Departments rate in relation to the 3% employment target, which is increasing to 6% but is there any analysis of career progression within Departments? Do a lot of disabled people come into Departments at a base level, which would be normal for most entrants, but then stay there? The NDA has indicated that it is going to start to monitor that. Is that something that the Departments look at themselves? Do they monitor whether disabled people do actually progress up through the ranks within the Civil Service? Do our guests have any figures on that?

Ms Denise Kennedy:

That is another area where the question of inclusiveness comes in rather than just counting and labelling people. What happens generally, in my experience, is that people come into the system, they are part of the team and they go for promotion. The Willing Able Mentoring, WAM, programme generally involves people who have a physical disability. They enter the mainstream and they have all of the same opportunities as others. Under the Oireachtas Work Learn, OWL, programme, for example, a person may have a disability such that he or she can only work a certain number of hours. That is a new programme so we need to watch it and see how it goes. Again, the opportunities may be in a small range of areas so one must look very closely at what is suitable. Each case has to be looked at on its own merits. In my experience, depending on how the person comes in and what abilities he or she has - lots of them have lots of ability - they move up through the system like most others. It is not something that we have tracked but it is certainly something to take away and consider.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The NDA said it is going to start tracking that. The authority monitors compliance with the 3% target, which is increasing to 6%, and has said that it is also going to look at career progression within the Civil Service.

Ms Denise Kennedy:

There is great advocacy. When people come in and start to move through, generally there is great advocacy within teams for others. It is something we can take away but I am not aware of disability being an inhibitor, or that once disabled people come into the system they do not progress.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What this committee is all about, and the reason we have invited you all as representatives of various Departments, is the need to change how we look at disability. We need to become a much more inclusive society. Disability within our society and within all settings should be the norm rather than the exception. For too long we locked disabled people away and segregated them. We need to have a much more inclusive society where people are treated with dignity and respect. That is our aim here.

I thank you all for coming here today to participate in this meeting and for your contributions.