Mr. Sam Waide:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to members and to discuss issues affecting the NCT service and the driver test service. In addition to my opening statement, I have provided the committee with a submission document that provides more details on the services. I acknowledge, however, to the committee members and anyone watching that in the areas of the NCT and the driver test services, our customers are not getting the level of service we want to deliver, and in the course of our discussions we will get an opportunity to say why that is and what we are doing to fix it. I apologise for any inconvenience caused and assure everyone that we are working hard to rectify it. I will begin by providing the committee with an update on the NCT.

The RSA has overall responsibility for the operation, oversight, development, quality assurance and delivery of the national car test service, NCTS. The NCT was introduced in 2000 and, over the past 23 years, has played an important role in improving road safety in Ireland. It has also played a vital role in protecting the environment as the NCT also enforces regulations on vehicle emissions.

Following a procurement process run in accordance with EU procurement rules, the contract for the provision of the service for the period June 2020 to June 2030 was awarded to Applus Inspection Services Ireland Limited. The service is provided at 49 test centres nationwide and there are plans to open new centres in an additional five locations to cater for increased demand. The responsibility for the operation and delivery of the NCT service lies solely with the contractor, Applus, and Applus’s country manager, Mr. Mark Synnott. He is here with us today and will shortly provide a comprehensive update on the service to the committee.

The RSA’s statutory obligations in respect of the NCT are to exercise a supervisory and oversight role to ensure the service is provided in line with the service’s project agreement. The project agreement specifies the performance standards for the contractor and covers such matters as premises, test equipment, staffing, test arrangements, facilities management, information technology, media and marketing, and customer service. We also work with our parent department, the Department of Transport, in assisting it in the development of policy around vehicle roadworthiness and vehicle standards, which is a key factor in road safety in Ireland.

To assist the authority in carrying out our supervisory role, we appointed a supervision services contractor, SSC, Deloitte, to carry out certain supervisory services on its behalf. This involves monitoring the contractor’s achievement of performance and service levels and reporting on these regularly to the RSA, including: average waiting times nationally and at individual test centres; that if customers wait more than 28 days for a test, they are offered a free test, within certain parameters and that 90% of customers receive a notification four to six weeks in advance of their test due date and 100% at least five days in advance of test due date; that the test operations ensure that testing is conducted in a consistent manner and that procedures protect test integrity; that at least 90% of telephone calls to the call centre are answered within 15 seconds; that customer satisfaction and mystery shopping surveys are undertaken and that findings meet the standards required; and that operational audits are undertaken.

Performance monitoring and oversight which RSA has put in place includes the appointment of AA Ireland as technical inspections services provider. It regularly monitors the delivery of the service with regard to the technical side and this includes observing tests and conducting independent tests. In 2022, the AA carried out more than 4,600 observed tests and more than 2,600 independent tests. The results show that more than 99% of testing is carried out correctly. In addition to regular strategic oversight meetings, we have met the contractor weekly over the past year to facilitate the introduction of and monitor progress on changes to work practices to increase capacity following the disruption caused by Covid-19 and other challenges faced by the service since mid-2022. I acknowledge that Applus is not currently meeting the waiting time service level due to demand and capacity issues, which Mr. Synnott will expand upon, but I believe it is important to reflect that several key service levels are being met.

Turning to the issue of the backlog itself, it is no exaggeration that the service has faced some serious challenges due to the impact of Covid-19, which caused significant staff absenteeism levels at test centres and in the call centre. There were also very high levels of customer no-shows and late cancellations. Reduced availability of new cars has meant there are more older cars in the Irish fleet. This means there are approximately 1.5 million cars to be tested at NCT centres this year. There have also been additional challenges, distinct from Covid-19 and relating to broader employment trends which have had an impact in mid-to late 2022. Difficulties in retaining and recruiting vehicle inspectors has also exacerbated the problem. Taken together, these issues have caused a backlog to build. The average lead time for an appointment for a test is currently 25 days. Before the pandemic, the waiting time would have been less than 12 days. Mr. Synnott will shortly outline the plan and measures that have been undertaken to increase capacity. These include an extensive recruitment programme, in Ireland and abroad, and increased overtime and opening hours. This plan will deliver improvements to the service over the coming months and a return to normal service levels by June of this year.

Turning to the driving test service, I will update the committee on the current position of the service at the end December 2022. Some 15,813 tests had been scheduled to sit a driving test in the following four weeks and 47,364 learner drivers were waiting to receive an invitation to book their test. Separately, 49,105 customers were issued with an invitation to book a test date by the RSA but did not use that invitation within the ten days provided. Lastly, while a further 24,003 learner drivers have applied for a driving test date, they were not eligible to sit a test, usually because they have not completed their 12 mandatory lessons or the six-month rule applies, whereby they cannot sit a test in the first six months of having received their first learner permit. Therefore, to be clear, the actual number of learner drivers who are available, eligible and waiting for an appointment to sit a driving test is 47,364.

At the moment, the national average time to invite for a test is 19 weeks. The service level agreement in place with the Department of Transport is to maintain an average waiting time of ten weeks. Where learner drivers fail their tests and reapply, we endeavour to invite them to book another test date six to eight weeks after their failed test. To put this in context, the RSA is currently providing an average of 4,000 tests per week, up from 3,000 in October 2022.

The backlog of applications which built up throughout the pandemic were effectively cleared earlier in 2022 and new demand was being met within expectations up until July-August 2022. Since then, unfortunately, there have been challenges to meeting increased demand. Primarily, there has been a 36% increase in applications for a driving test in 2022. There has also been a new and significant increase in the number of learner permits issued across all age groups since mid-2021. There has also been a reduced workforce owing to staff retirements and contracted staff reaching the end dates on their contracts, as well as a need for dedicated training of staff to conduct tests in higher categories so as to meet the demand for truck, bus and motorcycle tests.

To meet increased demand known at the start of 2022, we were sanctioned by the Department of Transport to increase the number of permanent driver testers from 100 to 130 in early 2022. The vast majority of these permanent testers commenced in December and the remaining three commenced in January this year. As of end January, the driver testing service currently has 125 permanent testers, taking into account statutory leave, and ten contracted driver testers available to conduct driving tests.

As outlined to the committee back in October, however, this resource level is not enough. The current staffing level will neither reduce the backlog of driving tests, nor will it meet the projected future demands for the service, based on the learner permit demand. In December 2022, the RSA submitted a request to the Department seeking sanction for 40 additional temporary resources, as a full complement of approximately 165 testers is required to bring us to a point where we work through the backlog and meet the ten-week average wait time. Beyond 2023-24, however, the RSA projects that a permanent pool of 170 testers is required year in, year out to meet estimated future demand in the service.

We are committed to restoring the service to the ten-week waiting time. If a positive decision on sanction is received for the 40 additional temporary testers in the coming days, we will be able to complete the recruitment process by July, offer contracts thereafter, complete training and have those individuals testing by October. With these interventions, the service would return to the levels expected. From this point onwards, we will see improvements in waiting times immediately in October, with those lists where waiting times are longest targeted first.

As the CEO of the RSA, I acknowledge the frustration and confusion that customers have experienced as a result of the delays in securing a test appointment for the driving test service and the national car test service. I apologise to customers for this. The message I wish to communicate to our customers is that we are doing everything we can to return the services to normal. I thank them and ask them for their continued patience as we work to reduce waiting times.

have provided an update on the current situation regarding progress in road safety in the submission document provided to the committee. Despite our long-term progress in reducing fatalities on Irish roads, we saw a 14% increase in road traffic fatalities in 2022.

As of 30 January, there have been 18 fatalities on the roads. As of this morning, 1 February, that is the case. There have been four more deaths compared with by the same date last year.

This concludes my opening statement to the committee. I am happy to take questions from members regarding our submission and my opening statement.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I wish to begin by thanking the committee for the opportunity to discuss issues affecting the NCT. I will address two themes, namely, capacity management and customer charter obligations but first, I wish to apologise to our customers for the booking issues they have seen recently. We recognise that there are significant waiting lists. We have worked hard to address the problem and the situation is improving.

Ireland is ranked in the top five safest roads in the EU and I believe the NCT has made a significant contribution to maintaining the safety of vehicles here. The roadworthiness testing of cars in Ireland began in 2000 and in the first year, we carried out 309,000 tests, with a first-time pass rate of just under 4%. Last year, 1,395,000 cars were tested with a first-time pass rate of 54%, a stark contrast to the start of the NCT. In addition, almost 87,000 vehicles received a fail-dangerous result, which constitutes an immediate risk to road safety, more evidence that the NCT is contributing to the reduction of trauma on our roads.

Surveys show over 74% of customers perceive the NCT as good value for money. The test fee has not changed since 2011 and 30% of retests are conducted free of charge.

The early months of every year are the busiest time for the NCT, as vehicles fall due on the anniversary of their registration. However, NCTS is pleased to report that 2021 and 2022 saw the two highest levels of annual full test throughput in the last six years, with approximately 1.4 million full tests completed each year. We also are on track for record levels of testing in January. This is despite the challenges that NCTS has seen since the Covid closure and staggered reopening in 2020.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the entire NCTS team, both management and staff, in test centres, the call centre and back office for their extraordinary efforts over the past three years. They have all worked long hours in very challenging circumstances. In addition, I would like to thank An Garda Síochána and Insurance Ireland for their patience while we navigate our way through this challenge.

Current throughput shows over 35,000 full tests per week, up from 28,000 in quarter 4, over 9,500 non-visual retests per week and over 4,200 visual retests per week, a combined figure of almost 50,000 vehicles per week. Overall, 375,000 vehicles are overdue for their NCT, approximately 170,000 above the norm for this time of year. However, 42,000 have already been tested, 204,000 have a booking and all have been notified of their obligation to be tested.

There are approximately 47,000 vehicles on our priority list. Some 14,000 are due in prior months, 10,000 are due in January and 23,000 are vehicles that are due in future months. It is important to note that we had managed the priority list down from 44,000 in October to 17,000 before Christmas, but in January we saw a surge to a peak of 62,000. The booking lead time for an appointment for all bookings made in January is 25.8 days.

NCTS release approximately one third of appointments well in advance to facilitate customers who wish to book early. We open the remaining capacity three weeks in advance when we know exactly how many staff are working each day in each centre, therefore ensuring that when a customer arrives at a centre there is an inspector available to test his or her vehicle.

While we are struggling to match capacity with demand currently, I am proud to say that all other aspects of service delivery have maintained the high levels of quality required. Customer surveys show 93% satisfaction with the service. Over 7,000 independent technical audits were conducted by the AA last year, and the results show a consistent test result accuracy score above 99%.

It is important to understand that if a test is lost today, for whatever reason, then that vehicle must come back into the booking cycle and be given another appointment. Even though customers are receiving a reminder of their appointment date, we are seeing approximately 2,500 vehicles not show up for their appointment each week. A further 1,000 will cancel just before the test. That is a combined 3,500 vehicles each and every week foregoing an appointment and looking for a new one. I credit our staff for minimising the

Quarter 1 sees by far the largest demand, as vehicles tend to be registered in the first few months of each year. This is always challenging. NCTS saw great success in managing this demand surge from 2016 to 2020 by proactively getting ahead of the demand curve. Since Covid struck, we have been behind that curve and struggling to catch up.

So, what are the challenges and what has NCT been doing about it? When the service fully resumed in August 2020 after the Covid closure, a single Covid instance could result in entire shifts requiring to self-isolate for up to two weeks at a time. I am glad to say that we saw very little transmission within centres due to our Covid protocols. However, self-isolation requirements had a detrimental impact on capacity.

Quarter 1 of 2022 saw a significant surge in Covid cases nationally and, unfortunately, it coincided with the quarter which had the highest demand in recent history, with over 100,000 more vehicles due in that quarter than the same quarter the year before. This confluence of events caused a rapid increase in waiting lists and booking lead times.

As mentioned previously, approximately 3,500 customers are foregoing their appointment each week. This results in customers cycling through the booking process repeatedly, increasing the booking lead time for all and inflating waiting lists. We ask customers to cancel early if they cannot attend. Also, our surveys show that 40% of customers do not have their vehicle serviced before their test. We ask customers to prepare their vehicle for the NCT and not to use the service as a diagnostic. Preparing a vehicle for the NCT increases the likelihood of passing the test.

The long-term impacts of Covid must be acknowledged. There is a significant constraint in the availability of new vehicles across the world. This means that our national fleet is ageing, which in turn means that there are more and more vehicles in scope for testing. Last year saw the highest volumes due ever, with 1.53 million vehicles. Putting this into context, there was an extra one months’ worth of testing to be done last year.

In terms of staffing, we saw the impact of the great resignation, where 113 vehicle inspectors left our employment, a staff churn rate of 19%. Some 26 inspectors left the trade entirely, 24 left citing higher pay within the industry and 22 left due to involuntary reasons, that is, they had health issues, did not pass training or were subject to disciplinary procedures. Understanding the challenges, our efforts have focused on increasing efficiency and capacity.

Our staff worked long hours on a persistent basis. Mandatory overtime was in use throughout 2020 and for long periods in 2021, 2022 and so far in 2023. Again, my thanks to the staff for their commitment on this front. Additional voluntary overtime continues to be offered and NCTS has also improved efficiency by 3% since 2019.

While NCTS may have lost inspectors in 2022, we recruited 124 more. Some 59 were hired locally, including seven returnees, 21 were seconded from our sister companies in Spain and 44 were recruited in the Philippines.

On top of consistent recruitment campaigns within Ireland, we have attempted to recruit directly and through agencies across Europe, but without success. My colleagues across Europe have reported similar issues recruiting staff. In July last year, we sent a recruitment team to the Philippines and within a week had conducted over 120 interviews and determined our candidates. However, we needed a change in law to allow us to bring roadworthiness inspectors into Ireland. This happened in August 2022.

After the requisite advertisements, work permits and visas were processed, with the valued support of the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Justice, 44 qualified mechanics arrived in Ireland in November and commenced their training. Some 41 completed their training and were deployed into centres just before Christmas. These recruits are settling into their new life in Ireland. They are here on a two-year work visa.

Overall, NCTS was extremely fortunate to find accommodation for 65 staff from Spain and the Philippines, who have all been deployed in the Dublin and surrounding areas. We are very cautious about taking additional recruits from abroad for this very reason.

We have also strived to retain staff. According to Central Statistics Office, CSO, published figures, we pay well above the average and have improved vehicle inspector, VI, compensation every year over the past decade. We offer a pension scheme and sickness benefits. There is a generous productivity scheme in place which rewards staff for consistent throughput, attendance and quality. Staff are also rewarded for their longevity with the company with additional annual leave.

In an effort to further improve conditions for staff, we provided a pension amnesty to encourage staff to join the scheme and engaged with staff to identify preferred working hours. We developed a management training course to demonstrate a commitment to upskilling our staff. We also introduced new health plans and a credit union.

Given the chronic lack of qualified mechanics in the country, NCTS explored whether we could introduce a new resource type to assist with the test process. Significant efforts were made to develop the concept, which centred around new staff being trained to deliver the largely automated stages of the test process. A fully qualified mechanic would complete the underbody stage of the test where the critical skills of a mechanic are required. This approach was first agreed with the authority to confirm its buy-in and confirm compliance with legislation. Staff were kept informed on progress. Ultimately, the proposal was referred to the Labour Court which issued its recommendation that the approach be trialled. Staff were balloted on the recommendation, but it was rejected in recent weeks. While it is disappointing that this effort to increase capacity has not been successful, it demonstrates the commitment and efforts made by NCTS to explore all avenues to increase capacity.

What does the immediate future look like? We have the highest volumes of vehicle inspectors employed in the history of NCTS. We are testing record volumes of vehicles. The next couple of months will be very challenging, but we can expect a significant improvement in service delivery in quarter 2 and we hope to be fully returned to normal for the start of quarter 3.

I will now move to the other topic for discussion, the customer charter obligations regarding the provision of free tests. The NCTS customer charter is available on the NCTS website and is also sent to customers when they are notified that their NCT is due. The charter clearly outlines the standards we aim to achieve in the delivery of the NCT service. These standards were relaxed during Covid given the challenges all businesses faced during the pandemic, but they were reinstated in October 2022. Since its reinstatement, NCTS believes we have been compliant with the customer charter. In 2015, NCTS provided for approximately 80,000 free tests to customers under this charter obligation. It is important to understand what the charter says and does not say. Clause 5 of the charter states:

We aim to ensure that the average lead time for an appointment at an individual NCT centre is less than or equal to 15 days. You will be provided with a test, free of charge, where an appointment cannot be offered within a 28 day period, unless any of the following apply:

- the test is overdue by more than 7 days at the time of contacting us. [It would not be unusual for over 30% of customers to contact the NCT late.]

- an appointment was offered 7 days or more prior to the test due date. [It would not be unusual for over 20% of customers to contact the NCT early.]

- you have made specific requests regarding suitable days, times or dates. [It would not be unusual for 40% of customers to make specific requests regarding their appointment date and time.]

- you have declined or rearranged two or more appointments. [We would routinely see between 3,000 and 6,000 customer cancellations per week.]

- you have failed to attend an appointment. [We would routinely see between 2,000 and 3,000 customer no-shows per week.]

- you have previously accepted or requested an appointment outside of the 28-day period.

NCTS has received many inquiries regarding free tests in the past few weeks and all will be responded to in detail. A summary review of these inquiries suggests that we have complied with the terms of the charter. Compliance with charter obligations is routinely reviewed by the authority’s supervision services contractor.

In conclusion, Covid has knocked the NCTS back from being ahead to being behind the curve. This happened as soon as the service recommenced after the Covid shutdown. The problem has been increased by the sheer volume of vehicles due last year. Fixing the problem has been inhibited by a chronic shortage of mechanics. We have, however, had the highest volumes of full tests delivered in 2021 and 2022 in the last six years. We have record numbers of vehicle inspectors employed currently. We expect the next three months to be challenging, but the situation is expected to improve in quarter 2 and be back on track for the commencement of quarter 3. We thank our customers for their patience. I am happy to take questions in relation to the NCT.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that despite originally declining to comment, Applus has made time to do so now in relation to the issues with NCT testing. I want to express a great deal of disappointment and anger about how we have reached this position. I do not know where to start, with the Road Safety Authority or with Applus. The headline of an article by Philip Ryan on the front page of theIrish Independent today indicates that 375,000 vehicles are on the road without a certificate. That is not just an issue but a crisis in the system. On the other hand, we have Mr. Synnott telling us the company has gone as far as the Philippines, 11,000 km away, to try to incentivise solutions with staffing. With regard to the level of resignations and staff moving on from Applus, has the company had any notable disputes with staff in the last 12 months?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

No, we have not had any notable disputes. We have a very constructive relationship with our employees and the union. There has been an increase in the number of staff leaving the service over the past year but a lot of that was from pent-up demand from 2021 and 2020 when virtually nobody left the service. Also, one third of the inspectors who left the service did not leave voluntarily. Several were dismissed and several failed their training. A cohort that came over from Spain to test vehicles finished their stint here and returned. We also had a number of retirements. As I said, approximately one third of inspectors have left but not for reasons of moving on to other employment.

With regard to the staff who left, what was different about 2022 was that many of our inspectors left the industry entirely. We saw a significant increase in demand for their transferable skills in the semiconductor industry and the pharmaceutical industry.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will cut across Mr. Synnott there because I have some information. Many people who work within the NCT system have contacted me over the past couple of weeks. Some of them do not have positive things to say about the company. I will give one example. The company cancelled a Christmas party one year and offered the staff €10 for a Christmas lunch.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes. Last year was a very tough year financially. Unfortunately, I had to make the decision that we could not sponsor a significant Christmas party. We did, however, sponsor a Christmas lunch for staff.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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A tenner.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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One would not go into a filling station and buy a wrap and a bottle of Coke for that.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Nonetheless, the financial situation the company faced last year demanded-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The company went all the way to the Philippines to find staff.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes. We have done our very best to find capacity-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Synnott does not think the company has an issue looking after its current employees.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We have to view a Christmas party as a discretionary spend. Last year, as I said, was a very tough one financially.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Treating employees is obviously incredibly important. Reference was made to the great resignation, which has impacted many parts of the commercial world and the State. Many people realised the importance of treating employees with respect and dignity, and looking after them.

On the advertised roles, I see Applus is advertising for roles in a salary range from €35,000 up to €42,000. For someone applying to work as a senior qualified technical mechanic or just a traditional mechanic in a car garage in Dublin, the salary available is around €50,000, and it is up to €56,000 in many cases. That would allow someone to do a normal eight-hour shift five days per week. I understand that for the salary quoted in the Applus advertisements, someone would have to work a Sunday to obtain a bonus. The salaries are significantly lower than what the market is demanding at the moment. Has Applus tried to address that?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I will just clarify a couple of points. We typically have two shift patterns that operate in our test centres. There is the core shift, which is a Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. equivalent, and there is a non-core shift, which includes evening working and weekends. These are well-established shift patterns. With regard to compensation, the salaries that are produced by the Central Statistics Office suggest that we pay a premium of about 20% across all of our shifts, relative to what is available. I take on board, however, that there are higher salaries available in the industry, but these are also for higher qualified staff. Last year, 21 of our staff left the service to pursue a higher salary within the industry.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Did somebody from the RSA go to Manila with Applus or did Applus staff go on their own?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We sent own management team to do the recruitment.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Who paid for that? Was it Applus?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will now turn to the RSA and the customer charter decision. Much of the controversy brought to the attention of the committee by road safety campaigners was around the decision to reintroduce the customer charter. I understand there is much dispute about what it necessarily means. We do know, however, that a decision was taken in October 2022 that the charter be reintroduced, which meant the people who experienced a delay of more than 28 days in obtaining an NCT testing slot were entitled to a free test.

In that context, how many drivers have been issued with a free test?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

In respect of the reintroduction, we had a relief event as part of our contract with Applus, which was why a relief was given for that 28-day period. In October, we made a decision that the relief event should conclude and that we should return to that 28-day offering. As it stands, no free tests have been given to customers that we are aware of, although Mr. Synnott can speak to that. We are reviewing the quarter 4 submissions from our supervisory services contract partner. Once that is available, if there is any deviation or if anything is owed to customers, we will seek to have that dealt with by Applus.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I am perfectly happy to support all that. I can confirm that last year, no free tests were granted under that specific term in the charter. I recognise that we have a constraint next week with the St. Brigid's Day bank holiday and that approximately 500 vehicles are likely to be given a free test as a result, but there were none last year.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Why was this stipulation reintroduced to the customer charter when we could foresee the backlog? On the front page of the Irish Independent, it was reported there were 375,000 vehicles on the road without a test. Who thought that was a bright idea? Whose decision was it? Why was the stipulation reintroduced in October when we knew we would be dealing with an enormous backlog?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

From the RSA's perspective, we continuously seek to provide value for our customers and to ensure customers get the best possible service. We made a collective decision that 1 October was a reasonable point at which to reinstate the 28-day period for customers. It was also on foot of initiatives being taken by Applus to recruit additional personnel. That recruitment took longer than expected. As Mr. Synnott outlined, changes had to be made and our colleagues in the Department of Foreign Affairs insisted on that. Nevertheless, we felt it was right because, at the end of the day, we want to ensure the customer will get exactly what he or she is entitled to. We believed 1 October represented a good watershed day to introduce the relief event and we stand over that because, as yet, we do not see that any free tests have been required. We rely on Mr. Synnott and Applus for that information but we are carrying out supervision to ensure that is the case.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Waide is the chief executive of the Road Safety Authority. Based on the response I just heard, this amounts to very serious mismanagement and it suggests Applus and the RSA underestimated the degree of backlog that would develop. In ten centres, a member of the public who needs to apply for a test may have to wait until the autumn before he or she will be seen for an NCT. I am due for one myself and I will have to wait until September to get a test in my local area. I cannot understand how the Road Safety Authority, no doubt in conjunction with Mr. Synnott's organisation, thought this was a good idea. What is Mr. Waide's view on it?

Mr. Sam Waide:

To build on what Mr. Walsh stated, I am appearing before the committee for the benefit of road safety and delivering services to customers-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Waide also has a statutory responsibility in this area. Am I correct in stating he is the person who has to manage the relationship with the private operator, which has been given a substantial State contract?

Mr. Sam Waide:

That is why we reinstated the part of the customer charter providing that customers would avail of a free test. Mr. Synnott can comment further on how Applus, as the provider, will deliver that service.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We recognise it is a particularly onerous responsibility to deliver against that charter obligation. We saw the consequences of it in 2015, when we were unable to meet the terms. We gave 80,000 free tests in that year, which was very difficult but we honoured the terms of the charter. It was also very costly.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their ongoing engagement with the committee. This meeting relates also to driving tests, of which there is a huge backlog. In response to an oral parliamentary question I submitted to the new Minister of State with responsibility for the issue, Deputy Chambers, last week, it was revealed that in County Clare, my constituency, the average waiting time amounts to 35 weeks in Shannon, 20 weeks in Ennis and 15 weeks in Kilrush, whereas the service level agreement stands at ten weeks. These issues are causing significant problems, not least in rural areas that do not have public transport. People cannot get to college or work and they have to wait all this time to get a test.

I accept that the RSA has tried to rectify the situation and has employed 30 additional testers, but it took the best part of a year to take on 30 people and get them working in December. They had been approved early last year but it was December by the time they came on board and started working. I secured a commitment from the Minister of State that redeployment would happen to areas where the lists are very long. That has to happen in County Clare and I would like the witnesses to confirm it will happen to reduce the numbers further.

I welcome the authority’s plans to increase the complement of driving testers from 130 to 170, but it is going to hire 40 testers again on a temporary basis. Assuming it gets sanction from the Department - I urge the Department to do that as quickly as possible - it will take the best part of a year to recruit those 40 testers and, at the end of the day, they will be temporary. The witnesses will recall that people who were employed on a temporary basis had their contracts extended three or four times. For whatever reason, they were let go and the RSA would not take them on permanently, which was regrettable because the solution was in our hands. We should have looked for a derogation against it due to all the waiting lists. A good case was to be made to retain those people. Instead of these proposed 40 positions being taken on temporarily, they should be permanent. The RSA should look to the Department, and rather than look for temporary contracts, make them permanent. We have a growing population and an ageing fleet of cars. The RSA needs to employ these people permanently. Will the witnesses address that? Will they ensure people are redeployed to County Clare to get through these tests more quickly? It is not acceptable that someone would have to wait for 35 weeks - the average now in Shannon - 20 weeks in Ennis or 15 in Kilrush, and the Minister of State said as much. We need to redeploy people to Clare to get through those lists as quickly as possible. Will the witnesses give an assurance in that regard?

In respect of recruiting, appointing people temporarily and then letting them go is a folly. Having trained them for the best part of a year, we let them go. They should be employed permanently and I would like to get an assurance from the witnesses that they will look at that again.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I thank the Deputy for his observations and comments.

I will take the first part of the question regarding the testers. I recently met the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers. I fully appreciate his support for the necessary testers to deliver this service. At previous committees, I reported the need for that workforce to deliver the ongoing service. I agree on the matter of the driving testing service and noted in my opening statement that our long-term projections are that the service will see ongoing, increasing demand. As the CEO of the RSA, it is my duty to see the RSA follow the rules and protocols, based on the sanctions that we are given by the Department, but I understand customers' frustrations.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Would it be Mr. Waide's preferred option to have permanent testers as opposed to temporary testers?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Temporary testers provide us a challenge in that we are duty-bound to let them go after their temporary contract expires. The Deputy rightly pointed out that it takes a considerable time to train them, which comes after we advertise for the position and recruit them.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Would it not make more sense to take them on on a permanent basis as opposed to employing people on a temporary basis, letting them go, then going out to recruit another cohort on a permanent basis? That is a recipe for disaster. That has happened to the RSA before. It has trained all these people. Their contracts were extended three or four times and then it let them go in the middle of a crisis, where we have all these people waiting for a driving test to happen.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I can understand customers' frustrations and the frustration of the Deputy and committee. That is also the RSA's frustration. We are currently in discussions with the Department. Part of that discussion is on the information and data that we are sharing with the Department which confirms that it is an ongoing need. I agree that the country's population is growing. We have demonstrated in our submission that the appetite for learning permits and people wanting a driving licence is unrelenting. In that context, my professional opinion is that it makes sense to have permanent sanctions. The temporary sanctions were made for the right reasons at a point in time. I absolutely agree.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Waide go back to the Minister and look for permanent appointments as opposed to temporary ones? He outlined in his opening statement that the RSA will employ 40 people on a temporary basis. Will Mr. Waide go back to the Department and ask for them to be employed on a permanent basis?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will commit to that. In previous submissions, we identified a need and our preference for permanent appointments. The sanctions were provided on a temporary basis. The second part of the Deputy's question related to how long it takes from finding suitable people to actually appointing them, either on a temporary or permanent basis. Mr. Walsh will explain to the committee why it takes so long.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is okay. There is a long lead-in period. I have limited time myself. Going back to the NCT, there is a proposal to deliver a second NCT centre in Clare. Smithstown Industrial Estate in Shannon was earmarked for the development of this new centre. Last year, development works were happening in Smithstown and came to an abrupt end. Apparently there were some contractual difficulties and the NCT and RSA pulled out. I asked the witnesses this question last October and they committed to giving a briefing to this committee about where that centre is currently being developed. They did not have the detail at the time. Do they have that detail now?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Can Mr. Walsh provide some information?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The engagement with local contractors is very much the remit of the supplier. Mr. Synnott might be best placed to give the most recent updates.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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In relation to Shannon. I thank Mr. Synnott.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

A number of locations in Shannon are being looked at at the moment to determine whether they are feasible to pursue. It is a long process to deliver an NCT centre. We were equally disappointed that the one we had built did not come to fruition. We continue to look for a suitable location to deliver a centre in Shannon. A number of sites are being reviewed.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Has Mr. Synnott a timeframe?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I am reluctant to give a timeframe on the basis that delivering any of the sites is challenging. We have a number that we can now evaluate. We re-advertised recently and got some suitable locations. As it stands, they will go through a feasibility study to determine whether they can be delivered as an NCT centre and whether we are likely to get planning permission.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Synnott confirm that that is in Shannon?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

It will be in the environs of Shannon, for sure. I do not know the addresses.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Good afternoon. I am sorry that I was not here for the witnesses' presentation. I had to be elsewhere. On the issue of driving tests, one county councillor in County Tipperary, Séamie Morris, contacted me regarding driving tests. Initially, when I thought about it, I thought it was a bit odd, but when I thought more carefully, it made at least a little sense. He wondered about driver testing taking place in local estates where driving schools are bringing people to the same areas to practise their three-point turns, reversing around corners, and so on. He saw this as a safety issue within his community. He wondered why, with modern technology being what it is, we have not got to a stage where we can do driver testing in a virtual environment. Have the witnesses anything to say on that?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I thank the Senator for the question. It is interesting. That practice of going to the testing route has existed since I got my own licence. We are aware that, in some instances, it causes concerns for residents. On the next level of driving testing, my team and I are always looking at new and innovative ways in which tests can be delivered, but we are hampered by what technology is available. I can share with the Senator that, as part of the road safety strategy, we are looking at an additional tool called hazard perception testing. It would allow an individual, during the training process to become a driver, to have some level of a simulation through a screen. The reality is that I am not aware of an actual driving test being delivered through a simulator anywhere in the world. I would be very happy if the Senator was aware of a country or jurisdiction that did have it and would be interested in looking into it. It would help local residents and may have additional elements which are beneficial as part of the learning and development process as a driver. It is a good question but we are not aware of it happening in any jurisdiction at the moment.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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In fairness, I am not aware of it myself but the idea sounded highly innovative. It struck me that one would be able to implement scenarios that would not normally be seen in a driving test. Perhaps, as a 21st century country, somebody might come forward with a solution that the RSA might be prepared to look at.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is interesting that the Senator refers to the hazards because that is very much what the hazard perception test is about. It puts individuals who are in training into a scenario where they observe a road in front of them and try to ascertain what is a hazard and what is okay. We are looking at that at the moment. As I mentioned, it is part of our road safety strategy. We firmly believe that we should make this available to the public and we will maybe seek at some point in the future to integrate it into the testing curriculum as part of the learner to licence journey.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am told Buncrana was probably one of the worst places in the country 12 months ago. It improved and was doing well but it is now beginning to slide down the scale again. Have our guests any idea what is going on there or what is causing that problem? Councillor Nicholas Crossan asked me to ask that question.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Are we referencing the pass and fail rates or the waiting times?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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My question relates to waiting times.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The average waiting time nationally is currently 19 weeks. That is higher than was the case when we were most recently before the committee. We have, however, increased our number of permanent testers by 30%. We have brought an extra 30 people on board. We see a need to go further than that. What happens - and this also applies to a question asked earlier by Deputy Carey - is that we sometimes move testers around or people get sick. Within the service at the moment, people are on statutory leave, including maternity leave and long-term illness leave. That can, unfortunately, impact the service. We try to compensate by moving people from other jurisdictions when it is feasible to do so. I am sure the committee will understand that because of the pressure the service is under at the moment, to move resources is a big challenge.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Has the RSA a family-friendly policy whereby it tries to keep testers as close as possible to their home places?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That is a very interesting question. As part of our placement of those 30 extra permanent testers, we tried to accommodate people based on their ability to get to a certain place in as short a time as possible. That is what we sought to do in respect of our permanent testers. I am aware of one or two cases where testers were offered jobs in jurisdictions that were unsuitable for them but, unfortunately, that is where the vacancies were. We are cognisant of ensuring a proper work-life balance so people, particularly those in a role as testers, are not spending too long driving to and from work.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will add to what Mr. Walsh has said. We do have a family-friendly policy. However, everyone's circumstances are different and some testers are very willing to move to another centre based on customer needs.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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If I were a tester, I would not want to be based in Galway because I would probably be testing my own, which would not suit. Is there a list on which a tester can put his or her name to request a transfer to a particular part of the country?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That is absolutely the case. We always engage with our staff.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have another question that was brought to me by Councillor Richie Molloy in Tipperary. He tells me there is a long waiting period and that the pass rate is very low in that area. Are our guests aware of a problem with Tipperary?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The national pass rate for 2022 was 48%. That is a little lower than the relevant figure in 2021, which was 50%. I do not have to hand the individual pass rates at a county level. I can take that issue away and look into it. I can defend the integrity of the service and those who operate within it. Those workers are held to an extraordinarily high standard and I would never expect to see one tester failing more people than another because they are managed on tight criteria. They are also continually assessed by their supervisors.

Mr. Sam Waide:

We can provide the committee with information in respect of the particular test centres that are of interest to the Senator.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have a relation who had great difficulty with the test. She was a reasonably good driver but struggled every time she went for a test. The approach taken with people who are in a nervous state is fantastic. I compliment the RSA for the effort it takes to put people's minds at rest.

I will turn to consider the national car test, NCT. I do not deal with members of the public too often, but a man came to me the other day. He is looking for an NCT because his current certificate runs out at the end of February or early March. He was offered an NCT in late September. We are being told that the Garda will take a sympathetic view but the law is the law and one must have a vehicle that has passed a test and that is it. If a particular garda chooses to take a lenient or sympathetic approach, that is very much down to him or her. I understand Applus is trying to recruit people. Where does that stand now?

Chairman:

Some of that was covered before the Senator arrived.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am sorry about that.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I am happy to summarise.

Chairman:

In conclusion, on the Senator's point-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the Chairman for the slap across the knuckles.

Chairman:

It was not a slap across the knuckles. There was a reference to that point in the opening statements and we have already discussed the issue.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is fine.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I am delighted to say that we have the highest level of vehicle inspectors we have ever had within the national car test service, NCTS. We are testing the highest volume of vehicles we have ever tested. The Senator said the man to whom he was speaking was offered an appointment in September. I am not sure I agree entirely with that phraseology. On the website, I agree that appointments are typically available in that timeframe. However, the website guides the user by stating that if the available appointments are not suitable, the user can add himself or herself to a waiting list. In that case, the vast majority of customers get an appointment within 28 days. Our average lead time for January, which is the peak time in respect of vehicles that are due a test, was 25.8 days. If the person who was speaking to the Senator needs an appointment, he can call our call centre and we will add him to the list or he can add himself to the list through the website.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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We live in a technological world. It should be possible for me to insert onto the system the date my NCT certificate runs out and rather than having to make a phone call, the system would recognise that I need to be prioritised and would tell me I will be contacted if a vacancy arises. That would be a better approach than having to go through the two-tier process.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We alert drivers 28 days in advance that a test is due. On occasion, we have in the past issued what we call "provisional bookings". That means we alert drivers that their test is due on a particular date and that we are offering a specific appointment in the chosen test centre to allow for the vehicle to pass the test. Given the pressure we have been under in recent years in managing capacity and demand, that is a luxury service we have been unable to offer. I am, however, optimistic that we will be able to return to it in the next two to three months.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to fire a number of questions at our guests, if that is okay. Mr. Synnott said that 375,000 vehicles are overdue for their NCT. He has accounted for 246,000 of those. What is the situation in respect of the other 130,000? Of the 375,000, has Mr. Synnott a breakdown of how overdue they are? Are they three or six months overdue? Are they more than a year overdue? Does Mr. Synnott have such a breakdown?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I do not have such a breakdown with me but I can provide it to the committee, if there is an interest. Typically at this time of year, 200,000 vehicles would be overdue. They are often sitting in garage forecourts. While they are overdue from the point of view of the system, they are, in actuality, often off the road. It is a challenge to quantify that. Typically, our running process throughout the year means that somewhere between 170,000 to 200,000 vehicles will always be overdue.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Synnott. The information I have requested would be helpful-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That is no problem.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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-----to give us an idea of the scale of the issue. I am trying to make sense of the figures Mr. Synnott has given the committee. I think he said that 1.53 million vehicles were due a test last year.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That is correct.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Some 1.4 million tests were conducted.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That is the case.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That suggests a shortfall in the region of 130,000.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That is approximately the relevant figure.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is roll-over demand. The 130,000 will roll into this year -----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That shortfall is still there for us to tackle.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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We expect they will need attention unless those vehicles are off the road permanently. What number of vehicles are due a test in 2023?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The relevant figure is 1.42 million; it is in the region of 1.45 million.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Mr. Synnott said his organisation now has the highest number of testers it has ever had, and the highest number of completed tests.

Applus also has the highest demand it has ever had, however. It is all relative. That is where we need to get to. Does Mr. Synnott have the staff and tests to meet the demand? He does not at the minute. I am looking at the recruitment figures supplied to the committee of 113 last year and now 124, which is a net increase of 11. Where does Applus intend those figures to go this year and how is it going to be addressed?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We would like to recruit another 30 inspectors, approximately. We are in the process of doing that. That is on top of 14 who are in training at the moment. That is the level we want to get to.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is that on top of 14 that Applus has?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We have 610 inspectors, 14 of whom are still in training. They will be coming out of training Monday week.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Are they included in the 610?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

They are included in the 610 but they are not productive at this time. That will be a boost to our capacity each week. We are continuing to recruit. Our next intake is on 20 February. We would again expect that somewhere in the region of ten to 15 vehicle inspectors will be employed in that intake.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is Applus recruiting in Ireland or internationally?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Across the board.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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And outside the European Union?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes, there are a couple of strategies. With respect to the next intake, it is definitely in Ireland. We are also heavily advertising within the UK at the moment to see if we can get more bodies from that direction. We are also recruiting in Spain. Our expectation is that the intake in February will largely be locally recruited staff. We are also sending a team to the Philippines to see if there is more staff available. That is somewhat speculative in the sense that I am not convinced we would find somewhere for them to live if we were to recruit them.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, Mr. Synnott has mentioned housing. I understand. If I can move on to another point, both Applus and the RSA have made the point about cancellations and no-shows. Is Applus still paid for those cancellations and no-shows? On the backup with the motor trade, of the 3,000 to 6,000 a year, how many appointments are being lost completely?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I will address that point first. Ultimately, I will credit our staff. They have worked very hard to make sure any no-shows are covered. As a result, we actually see greater than 100% utilisation of our slots, which is something I am satisfied to state. On the Deputy's previous question about cancellations, we see two types of cancellations. There are people who have an appointment in two or three weeks' time, know they are not going to be able to attend and let us know. There is no fee associated with doing that. They free up the slot and we are able to reuse it, so that is fine. There is a secondary type of cancellation, which is those who cancel in the immediate days before a test. That carries with it a cancellation fee of approximately 50% of the overall test fee.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The no-shows are essentially a moot point in terms of capacity. Applus is using it efficiently but it is clear the backlog will not be addressed by everybody showing up for their scheduled appointment. Is that right?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I anticipated this question. To be honest, we could be doing better. We are at just over 100% utilisation but we could be up at 105% utilisation if we can get people who will show up on time. Our staff in test centres are recognising that we are exposed, somebody has not shown up or we have empty slots for whatever reason. They are spending their time ringing around to the local trade to see if they can source cars. If we can take that piece out, it frees them up to test more vehicles.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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On the approach of having a third of appointments in advance and the vast majority three weeks, similar to what Senator Craughwell and others will say, if I go to the Kells centre it will be August or September but in truth there are lots of appointments in Kells between now and August or September.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Absolutely. So, why?

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, exactly, and what can Mr. Synnott do to improve that piece?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

There is a tried and tested approach to slot release within the NCT. We only know about three weeks in advance what staff are working. They are obviously entitled to take annual leave, some will be sick and so on. We will not know exactly who is available in which centre on which shift until three weeks in advance. It is only at that point that we can finalise the schedules. In the past we have increased the level of advanced opening of slots but the consequence is that we end up with vehicle inspectors deployed in less efficient locations, and that is not where we need to be at this time. We have flexed it, the Deputy can rest assured. The right balance we have is about one third well in advance. If the service was in balance at the moment, that one third would be more than efficient because it would not all be consumed each week. We are not in that place at the moment.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There is something Applus can do, based on the many conversations I have had, to improve people's understanding that, if their first engagement with the website gives them a date way into the future, there are other measures they can take that will give them an earlier appointment. I will leave that point with Mr. Synnott.

On the ballot by SIPTU members in respect of the new work practices and inspection support personnel, it strikes me the company could end up in a difficult position if it pushes ahead with that now. Workers and the union might respond. What are the intentions? From the opening statement, it seems there are plans outside of that change in work practice to address the backlog.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The first thing to recognise is that there is a dramatic shortage of qualified mechanics in this country. We tried to identify an alternative way of delivering capacity within the NCT. We explored whether we could introduce assistants, essentially, who would do the largely automated elements of the test, with the under-body inspection being completed by a fully qualified mechanic. That was the principle of what we explored.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I understand all of that. My question is whether Applus intends to proceed with the pilot despite the fact that workers have overwhelmingly voted against it.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

No, I think the message has been received that in its current guise this is not something we will be pursuing. There is an onus on us, though, to come up with some mechanism that allows us to address the shortage of mechanics in the country. Quite honestly, going to the Philippines repeatedly is not a sustainable model.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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To Mr. Waide, I take from the RSA's move in respect of the customer charter that it is putting pressure on Applus and is not satisfied it is performing to the standard that is agreed. Has the RSA begun proceedings against it or issued any sanctions? If so, what are they?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I thank the Deputy. For a number of months, in fact for the past year, the RSA, which includes me, have been not just scrutinising but insisting to Applus that it improve and enhance the service to deliver service to the customer. That has included me as CEO of the RSA escalating the matter to Applus in Spain. Alongside that, as was included in our opening statement, we continue operationally to meet Applus weekly. Mr. Walsh can give more details about that. It is our duty to ensure the service is delivered and those obligations are met. It is also our duty to work with and support Applus where we can in regard to serving the public and the customers ultimately. I will pass over to Mr. Walsh to answer the latter part of the Deputy's question.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

We engage with Applus weekly. Mr. Synnott and his team provide me with weekly statistics at quite a detailed level, which we discuss with the Department of Transport as well every Monday morning.

Mr Synnott is fully aware of the pressure that is coming on Applus from us. Regarding performance, at the moment a series of service credits are pending with Applus on the non-performance of certain service level agreements, SLAs, particularly relating to the waiting time. Applus and the RSA are at odds on the interpretation of those. We are engaged in very robust discussions at the moment. We will have a face-to-face meeting with Applus and its management from Spain in February to try to escalate. We will try to resolve the issue and ensure we in the RSA are satisfied.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Who adjudicates on that? Is it just Applus and the RSA?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

At the moment, we are trying to resolve it between both parties. There is a mechanism, the contract dispute resolution clause, which would see the introduction of an independent lawyer to come in and oversee it.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The Chair is right in saying that it is everyone’s responsibility to ensure their vehicle is roadworthy.

Mr. Sam Waide:

In the example the Chair gave, a test is booked. If the driver were stopped by An Garda Síochána and provided the evidence showing the NCT is booked, An Garda Síochána would not take any further action. Mr. Walsh can add to that.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

A vehicle being driven in the State must have a valid NCT certificate, but there is also a requirement to have the vehicle in a roadworthy condition.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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We are very much dependent on the goodwill of the Garda.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Strictly speaking, such a driver is breaking the law, in my view.

Mr. Sam Waide:

A driver is required to have a valid NCT certificate on his or her vehicle.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I am happy to address that. When we initially allowed customers to pay for their NCT appointment online, we took the fee at the point of the test. What we saw happening pretty much every day and in every test centre was that customers showed up for their test, thought they had already paid and did not have sufficient funds on their card to make the payment. That caused considerable embarrassment for the customer and the staff member who had to deal with it. As it was a repeated issue in the centres, we took the decision to say that if people believe they have paid when making the booking, let us take the payment at that point as well.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

It was in December 2021.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I do not like to contradict the Chair, but it is certainly there online.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I will draw inference from what the sequence of events may have been. People going online to make a booking on the website today from the start will be presented with the slots in the test centre they default to - the one they used last. It also presents the appointments available in neighbouring centres. Underneath that it clearly states that if a suitable appointment is not available, people can add themselves to our waiting list. Going down that route gives a sequence of steps to follow.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

No, it is a hyperlink. It brings people to a different form allowing them to nominate what is suitable. I believe the Chair already has an appointment. Unfortunately, it is not possible to have an appointment and be on the waiting list at the same time.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I suppose it is the design of our service.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The voluntary testing is-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes, if they want to-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Correct.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That is a dynamic warning when they actually select the date. They are alerted upfront.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I can clarify for the committee afterwards what people can and cannot do. What I do know is that there is a link between the NCT information and insurance and, obviously, that information is shared by and accessible to the Garda Síochána and the Courts Service. That different type of information has been-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

There is a link between motor tax, insurance and the NCT. From September 2022, the NCT information is linked to the national vehicle datafile. That sits within the Department of Transport so that information is available and, I am glad to say, from September 2022, those two different pieces of information sit alongside each other, and there is a check in terms of the information on the vehicle and also the tax of the vehicle.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The Road Safety Authority does not deal with motor tax. That is a matter the committee could clarify with the Department of Transport because motor tax is administered by the Department.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Again, it is positive that if gardaí were to stop the Chairman or other drivers, they can check that. Even if drivers are producing evidence to say they have booked an NCT, gardaí can check that they have car tax and insurance for that vehicle.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I welcome the suggestion. I would say that one of the actions in the road safety strategy is to look at all of the datasets, and it is a multi-agency strategy with the Courts Service, the Road Safety Authority and the Department of Transport, including the motor tax office within the Department of Transport. That project is looking at those datasets and ensuring that, going forward, that information will be available so that, ultimately, we can enhance and improve road safety.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I must apologise. I could say that I listened to everything from my office but it would not necessarily be the truth as I was trying to be in two or three places at one time and I failed miserably on all of them.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will definitely repeat a lot of what has been said before, so the witnesses should feel free to move through it fairly fast. I presume there has been much discussion on the €55 and on those who should have got the rebate.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have no doubt in that regard. On that, when do we believe we will be able to offer a fit-for-purpose system in regard to the timeline, and what is the timeline on that? When the witnesses were before the committee previously, we were talking about the end of quarter 1.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It was the end of quarter 2.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is it still that?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As to where we are at, Mr. Synnott has outlined all of the different initiatives and programmes that Applus has implemented. The plan that was put in place before I was asked in front of the Oireachtas is still very much being held to. At the moment, we are targeting the end of quarter 2 to have the service back within the service level agreement - that is agreed and it is still our target.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to recruitment and the difficulties that existed previously, in particular in regard to mechanics, the Road Safety Authority believes it will still be able to deliver on that timeline.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The last time I was here, we had 552 testers operating within the NCT and, as Mr. Synnott confirmed earlier, we now have 610, which is obviously a significant step up. Applus itself has introduced additional measures around productivity and overtime to increase the number of hours that are available. As to where we stand at the moment, we are confident of getting to the end of quarter 2 on target.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Senator Craughwell brought up the issue in regard to virtual driving. Has the Road Safety Authority looked at that to any degree? I understand it operates in places like France. The way it was sold to me was the idea that, between lessons, a considerable number of people can be rusty, and the fact they are able to do this inbetween and it is still counted as actual hours can be incredibly useful. The example I would point to is in my own town of Dundalk, where the Drive Virtual Driving Academy does a huge amount in regard to best practice for hauliers, transport safety and also from a cost saving point of view, which matters a hell of a lot during the last period. It is an area where we could do with some element of due diligence and I think it has a role to play. What has the Road Safety Authority done to date and what does it intend to do in the future?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As I previously said to Senator Craughwell, if he was aware of somewhere where they were doing virtual driving lessons, we would love to look into it because it is not something that is offered in Ireland today. What I can tell the Deputy is that we are currently looking at introducing a project on hazard perception testing, which is an additional layer that customers can go through as they are going through their “learner to licence” journey, and which would be around helping them to understand and identify risks on the road. That is something that forms part of our road safety strategy and both Mr. Waide and I are very passionate about it. We are actively engaged with a supplier out of the UK around how we could possibly introduce that into Ireland. Our thoughts around that are not just about encompassing it into the driving test or driver learning process, and we also believe there could be benefits, which we would like to look into, around offering individuals the opportunity to take a refresh at some point after holding a licence for several years. If someone wanted to check themselves against what a hazard perception test is, we think it would be a good exercise in road safety.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The idea sells itself to some degree and there are many people who would voluntarily take this up. Maybe it is something we could look at into the future from the point of view of there being a benefit to them, and insurance companies and others could take it into account. Would we be talking about it being mandatory?

Mr. Sam Waide:

First of all, it is being considered. I am being definitive about this. As Mr. Walsh has stated, there is an action in the strategy not only to review this, but to progress it. On a point of detail, I wish to flag that Mr. Walsh referred to a company in the UK. We are considering what others are doing in the context of a public procurement arena. It is sounding the market in an informal way. When we determine what can be delivered and will benefit road safety, there will be opportunities for firms, whether they are based in Dundalk, the UK, Spain, France or anywhere else. The Deputy mentioned the mandatory use of such a solution but there is also the opportunity for additional voluntary lessons. A committee member made the point that some people may be nervous about physical driving lessons and there is a fantastic opportunity to provide additional virtual sessions. Those are all options. This is not just being talked about; it is part of a specific action that can be progressed. For the committee to-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the hazard perception campaign to which Mr. Waide referred or what that would contain, I assume virtual driving will be a major part of that. Is that how he foresees it being done?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I do not want to pre-empt the outcome in that regard. The subject matter experts from the various agencies will be part of that group. There will be the opportunity to introduce more innovation which will ultimately benefit road safety.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I think that will be the case across the board. If the RSA is doing this, it probably should consider the virtual driving academy in Dundalk, which seems to have considerable footfall and momentum and has had a significant amount of coverage in the public domain. This type of set-up is being operated in France and other places. Everyone is in agreement that anything that works from a road safety point of view is a winner all around.

I may seek to come back in later. In fairness, all the questions have been asked. In terms of a timeline, we are still operating on the basis of the end of quarter 2.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The end of quarter 2, yes.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. Like Deputy Ó Murchú, Wednesdays are a bit crazy for me, juggling all the meetings here in Leinster House. I was following the meeting in my office and have read the opening statements. I thank the witnesses for providing them. To digress briefly, National Broadband Ireland, NBI, regularly appears before the committee. It does a really smart thing whereby it links up individually with committee members a couple of weeks beforehand to ask if they have questions and to identify matters NBI can address. It is fantastic for us and it is fantastic for NBI when it comes in because it probably kills off most of the questions. I reached out to Mr. Waide and his colleagues in the RSA, some of whom are in the Public Gallery. I thank him for that. It was fantastic. Approximately three weeks ago, I met them in Leinster House and I fired about 20 questions at Mr. Waide, so I probably only have one or two left to ask today. For anyone who has tuned in to the proceedings, I make the point that it is a great exercise for bodies and associations that regularly come before the committee to link in with members individually. It probably short-circuits the need for a big meeting here in the committee rooms every so often.

My first question is for Mr. Waide. No-shows at NCT centres are a big issue for the RSA and Applus Ireland. They throws everything out of sync and disrupt the agenda for the day. A mechanic at a garage in Ennis told me that he and his colleagues have a good working knowledge of the issue. They are constantly bringing cars over to the NCT centre in Ennis and they tell me that, on an average day, it could be that four or five people do not show up for a test or cancel late. The mechanic said the garage and car sales industry near the test centre is able to fill those gaps all the time and, therefore, they do not become blanks in the overall day's programme. I ask Mr. Waide to address that point. It seems like there are gaps in the day yet they are being fulfilled. It may be a question more for Mr. Walsh, actually.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Before I hand over to Mr. Synnott, I will address that question. Obviously, I am very familiar with the motor industry. Garages do utilise those slots that result from no-shows but there is a level of having to engage with the dealership to say there is a slot available and ask if it wants to bring a car in. That takes time.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for interrupting. Do the garages have a separate portal?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

There is a trade portal where they can upload up to nine vehicles. What the Deputy is referring to is more an ad hocpractice whereby when a slot is available at an NCT centre, a garage is asked if it wants to send one of the lads up with a car to take that slot.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That type of scenario happens but it takes more time. If the vehicle is present at the time the inspector is available, he can utilise the slot straight away. I will pass over to Mr. Synnott who may wish to provide more detail on this issue.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We have very good structures in place. Typically, our NCT centres and their staff have good relationships with the local trade and do their best to facilitate it. It is a symbiotic relationship. The motor trade has vehicles it needs to get tested and we expect a proportion of no-shows. When we release our schedules, we understand that by centre and load the schedules accordingly. The Deputy is correct. Those relationships exist at every test centre and, as a result of them, we have been successful in mitigating the level of no-shows and late cancellations that we experience.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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When I met Mr. Waide a few weeks ago, we explored the issue of technicians starting to fulfil certain roles at test centres rather than mechanics doing so. There are certain tasks, such as checking indicator lights and so on, that do not require a mechanic. As such, the skilled labour can be concentrated at the middle of the test line, with technicians at both end points. I ask Mr. Walsh to update the committee on the status of that development in terms of roll-out.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That is a question for Mr. Synnott because-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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My apologies.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I am happy to take that question. Last year, we experienced capacity issues. We saw the long-term implications of a lack of apprenticeships entering the motor trade. As a result, we looked as best we could at all levers that would be available to us to increase capacity. The solution on which we settled was staff members who, in essence, are assistants would do the largely automated stages of the test before handing the vehicle over to a qualified mechanic who would do the underbody inspection. We engaged with the RSA to ensure it was within its gift to allow us to do so and that it would comply with legislation. Having done that, we engaged with staff on a long-term engagement to explain why we wanted to do this. There was a significant amount of back and forth on it. Ultimately, it was referred to the Workplace Relations Commission for conciliation and then on to the Labour Court. We had a session with the Labour Court in late November and it ultimately issued a recommendation that the approach should be trialled. That was balloted on by staff. Unfortunately, in recent weeks there was an overwhelming rejection by the staff of that proposal. We are left with the genesis of an idea for what we would like to do. We now need to evaluate whether there is an opportunity to pursue it with the staff again. We do not intend to force it in. The staff have made their position clear on that front. I still think there is a concept there that we need to explore and flesh out and work with the staff-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Synnott. He has explained it well. The committee needs to allow him the space to work through that with the staff.

The NCT centre in Shannon never materialised. It is a shell of a building. I have been to see it. It looks like every other NCT building I have seen.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It looks like every other NCT building I have seen but the contract was not taken up. It is non-existent. Is there a plan B for Shannon, County Clare, or for Kilrush? It is a big county and there is a backlog in testing there.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

There is a backlog of testing nationwide. As regards Shannon, planning permission was granted for a centre we had there and it was largely constructed but, ultimately, the developer wanted to go in a different direction. We have readvertised for locations in the Shannon area.

We have identified a number of potential sites hat we can pursue by means of a feasibility study to see whether they would likely be approved for planning permission to become NCT centres. That activity is ongoing.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Are there plans for a second site in the county, in Kilrush?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We have not identified in our demographic analysis that another centre is required in that part of the county.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Synnott. However, the matter needs to be kept under review. I ask that there be in-house consideration of it.

I have two more questions. Mr. Waide might answer them. Regarding the driving test backlog, I will be parochial and speak about County Clare. We have been given the national figures. Based on the current testing rate, which is 4,000 a month, how long will it take to clear the national backlog? There needs to be a bit of geographical bias in trying to clear it. Youngsters growing up in Dublin or the commuter-belt counties have an array of public transport facilities on their doorstep. If they do not get their driving licence, there is a plan B, C and D. There are many ways to get about the city and its environs. That is far less the case for people living in the west of Ireland. If people are very lucky, there is a morning bus to take them where they want to go and a return bus that will take them back to their home place or somewhere near it in the evening. Many people rely on the taxi of mom or dad. We still see people thumbing a lift in the west, which is not much seen in Dublin. People stand on the roadside trying to get from A to B, which is dangerous and archaic at this stage. There needs to be a geographical bias in dealing with the backlog, whereby counties in the west are treated preferentially ahead of more urbanised counties with public transport systems. Will Mr. Waide give an indication as to the where the RSA is at in clearing the backlog and what can be done for counties like Clare?

Mr. Sam Waide:

We are fully committed and determined to resolve the backlog of driving tests for customers. Earlier, Senator Craughwell asked for specifics on the lead time for tests. Whether we are looking at a parochial, local, regional or national level, our commitment is across the whole country. I ask Mr. Walsh to address Deputy Crowe's specific question about his region. I will then address the question about when the backlog will be cleared, with reference to the number of driver testers we need. We covered that briefly earlier but I will come back to it and confirm when it is that we ultimately aim to restore the service.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As part of our recent recruitment process, we added two additional permanent testers to cover County Clare. Those appointments are replacing temporary testers who left a couple of months ago. We have put three testers back into the county. We are working with the Department of Transport on a sanction to increase further the number of testers available across the country. As part of that, there will be a focus on specific needs in specific areas in which there are very long waiting times. I understand the waiting time in Kilrush is 35 weeks at the moment.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is right.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is one of the worst waiting times in the country and we need to address it straight away. As part of the additional sanction we are working on with the Department, we will be seeking to address that. Our plan is to get 40 testers in place as soon as possible. Unfortunately, like any recruitment process, it will take time. Where we are at with the service generally at this time means it will be into 2024 before we get back to normal levels.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses. This has knock-on effects. I acknowledge that there is a huge backlog, but I have seen scenarios where there are difficulties arising for people who have secured jobs. I know of one individual who passed all his aptitude and medical tests for the Army but could not take up the cadetship because there was a requirement that he needed to have a driving licence. This issue impacts on people's lives, including many youngsters. Perhaps I should not say so in this committee but there are many people in rural Ireland who are driving without an accompanying fully licensed driver because their life has to function. They have to get to college or work. The day will come when there is a serious accident and the insurance underwriter involved will have to make a decision. The arrangements people are having to make might function for them day to day, but when something goes wrong, it will go radically wrong. Those drivers' insurance will not be underwritten and their claims will collapse. This has huge ramifications. I ask again that there be a bias exercised in the allocation of the extra tester capacity, when it is achieved, by way of preferential treatment for the counties in the west of Ireland in which the situation is more pressurised than it is in the east-coast counties.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As I have referenced, the locations in which we have very high waiting times will be the first ports of call for deployment of additional resources as and when we secure them.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Allocation is not decided on a bias; it is based on the prioritisation of the highest lead times.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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There needs to be an ability to triage applicants. A young nursing graduate going to work in a local hospital must be prioritised. We need some element of triage in processing the backlog whereby people are identified as priority applicants and put at the top of the list. That approach must be central to the process.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

For front-line operators or employees, there is a function within the application process that allows them to notify us of their front-line status. We will work with those individuals to speed up the process.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Acting Chairman for accommodating me, as a non-member of the committee. I welcome the witnesses from the RSA. A year or 18 months ago, I asked during Leaders' Questions about the situation whereby 100 driving test instructors were being let go. Has the current difficulty, with large numbers of young people looking to get their licence, stemmed from that? Why were those instructors let go at that time? Have they all since been taken back? Mr. Walsh said there are 50 or 60 extra testers in place at the moment. I understood that more than 100 instructors were recruited on a temporary basis a few years ago and were then let go. Is that correct?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

No. Back in 2020, there was an application for 80 testers made to the Department of Transport. We received sanction for 40 appointments, and those 40 staff were deployed in the service. Six months later, we received an additional sanction to take on an extra 40 staff to get us up to 80 but, unfortunately, we were not in a position to bring those 40 instructors on board. Instead, we worked with the Department to bring in 30 permanent testers instead of the additional 40 temporary staff. We did reduce the number of temporary testers in 2022 because they had reached the end of their contractual relationship with us. We were in a situation whereby we had initiated an open competition for driving testers. Those testers who were temporary were free to apply. Quite a significant number of them did so and subsequently took up the permanent posts.

As to where we are now and why the current situation has happened, there are a couple of points to make. First, there has been a 36% increase in the number of people applying for a driving test. Data we have now show that over the past four years, there has been an increase of 61% in the number of people under driving training, that is, who are going through the process of becoming a driver. Most recently, we looked into this on an age-by-age basis, which is the first time we were able to do so. What we found, which goes back to Deputy Crowe's point, is that by far the biggest increases are in the cohorts of individuals aged 17 to 20 and 30 to 39. In the first of those cohorts, there was a 48% increase over the four years in the number of people who are actively on that journey to acquire a licence.

This increase is driven by a number of situations. For the younger cohort, we believe it is really being driven by the fact the housing situation in metropolitan areas is very difficult. Many people, including the children of some of my colleagues, are driving to college on a daily basis because they are unable to secure accommodation. We also believe that the growth we are seeing in the cohort of people aged 30 to 39 is a direct result of what we saw during the Covid period, when a lot of people chose to decentralise. They now require driving licences. Fundamentally, however, the growth is driven by population. The latest figures we have show the population is significantly growing, particularly in that younger cohort. It is among this cohort that we really see the demand for driving lessons.

That goes back to Mr. Waide's comment to the effect that we will need 170 testers available at all times in the future in order to maintain the service level. That is because there will be more people, and more of them will want to drive. We have a housing issue that is forcing college students to drive rather than stay in digs. Society has changed, and this is reflected in the service. We want to ensure that we can offer a service in the future and people can get their licences as quickly as possible.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We do not want something said here that will blow back at the witnesses. Realistically, when will waiting times be brought back to normal?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

We are working with the Department of Transport on additional sanction for 40 temporary testers. If we are successful in securing those testers, we will move to recruit them immediately. We estimate that we may be able to start that process in March if sanction is granted by the Department. If we recruit in March and work through the training and deployment process, we will have individuals deployed into the testing environment by October. That would mean we would start to deal with the backlog from October. Those 40 testers would give us the ability to get the service back to the ten-week window relating to the SLA at some point in the middle of 2024.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I come from a rural constituency. I am sure that, like me, many Deputies have noticed an elderly cohort of people who have no licences. They previously had provisional licences because they might only have been driving tractors. They find the process cumbersome. They are not able - one time it was jumping into the back of a bus, but the testing centres have buildings now - to answer questions in order to get their provisional licences. I put it to Mr. Waide's predecessors that, for example, somewhere like Mondello Park could be used to give these people the opportunity to get some sort of a licence, at least for driving tractors. They might be the finest of drivers. They have been driving all their lives, but they are outside the system and nothing has ever been done about them. I would have been as well off not to have been here when some of the witnesses' predecessors were before the committee previously because nothing has been done. These are elderly people. I am referring to constituents who came to my house. My youngsters tried to help them and show them how to do the prototype. It is like a brick wall to them, however. They cannot get around it and it prevents them from applying for licences. I see instances where someone has a tractor in a field down the road but they cannot bring it up to their shed or their house because they do not have a licence. At one time they had successive provisional licences and 40 or 50 years ago many had no licences and were driving away. It is a different Ireland now. They want to have insurance and they want to do everything right, but they are not in a position to be able to answer the questions. The RSA will say help is available, but it does not matter. You can give them all they help you want. These individuals are the finest of drivers. Is there anything the RSA can do to help that cohort of people? I am not saying there is a huge number of them, but we should show some courtesy towards them to help them rather than pushing them outside the law.

Mr. Sam Waide:

That is a good question. I will link it back to a question Deputy Ó Murchú asked earlier. One of the actions in the road safety strategy is hazard-perception driving and the potential use of innovation and virtual driving. The Deputy mentioned Mondello Park, which is one facility. We are working with Age Friendly Ireland. This is not just a good question, it is a timely one because there is an opportunity available. There was reference earlier to things being mandatory or voluntary. At a minimum, there is an opportunity to develop something with older people and the likes of our partner Age Friendly Ireland, as part of the strategy in that action in order to give people the opportunity to avail of licences. I agree that they may be competent drivers, but if they are not driving on a frequent basis, like anything, they may lose confidence. I commit to take that away and discuss the matter with those organisations. We will work not only to answer the question on the potential of virtual innovation, but it is a good opportunity for those people who do not drive frequently.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Waide for that and ask him to come back to me on it. While no one wants to talk about it, this is a reality in rural areas, especially when it comes to tractors.

My final question relates to NCT. It may be of help to the RSA. In addition to cars, there are trucks and vans that must pass what was formerly the Department of the Environment test. There are competent mechanics doing those tests. Has the RSA looked into whether it could tie up with them in order to see if they might alleviate some of the pressure by carrying out some of the tests? It is possible to get a test on a lorry, a jeep or a van pretty quickly. There is almost no waiting time, in fairness to them, and it is a good service. I wonder whether in the RSA's hour of need, the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications would be able to work with the RSA to facilitate that, as the staff are all trained mechanics. When the RSA is under pressure could they do a certain number of tests in order to help out?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I will respond. It is a good question. Having come from that world a long time ago, I can tell the committee that in our commercial vehicle roadworthiness testing, CVRT, service which used to be the Department of the Environment testing structure, we have 555 mechanics. That is almost the same number as the National Car Testing Service, but they only test approximately 500,000 vehicles a year. However, they carry out 15 different types of test. The test is much longer and more arduous. It is an annual test for every vehicle. We did look at that possibility. To be honest, one of the first questions I asked when I came on board was whether there was a way to utilise the CVRT service. However, the reality is that they are two completely different systems. Applus operates one system for testing and then we have the CVRT structure. They are separate systems. One system is run and controlled directly by the RSA, the other is an Applus system, which it operates. The two systems cannot link with each other. In addition, the efficiencies relating to the NCT whereby a tester can deliver 17 or 18 tests a day would not be achievable in the CVRT network. We looked at it, but it is not physically possible.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Walsh said we are talking about the middle of 2024 before the ten-week delivery for driving tests will be possible. The NCT issue will be resolved a considerable amount of time before that. Recently, I saw varying results as to the percentage of people who had passed their tests. These were provided on a centre-by-centre basis.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Are we talking about driving tests?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I imagine the number of cars that pass the NCT is considerable.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Not hugely different, but there are-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I am not sure which centre that is.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the variance?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

It is within 6%.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is it generally?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

It is 6% either side of the average. Last year, the pass rate was 54% for the first time.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes, it is in that range.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would have expected it to be higher. That is one thing.

I was looking at a number of pass rates. The pass rate in Dundalk for last year was 56.9% but in Drogheda it was 49.8%. One particular figure was 75%.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Is that driving tests?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is driving tests.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Nationally, for 2022 it was a 48% pass rate. I did reference earlier that the test we do is a standardised test that is held to the highest of standards. Our testing personnel are exemplary in how they evaluate individuals. If there are large differentiations between the individual centres, it is not as a result of our testers.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I would not imagine it is. However, I imagine Mr. Walsh looks at the percentages and then sort of delves into what exactly is happening, be it good, bad or indifferent.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Absolutely we do. It is one of those things where the perception was always that a certain level of tests were carried out and some individuals had targets and all this type of rubbish.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They have to fail so many.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Exactly, that type of rubbish.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Unless someone got the right guy.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Which is absolutely wrong. I would never call into the question the integrity of our testers. I am delighted to be part of it now and really understand it.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An awful lot of things are said and they are not necessarily true. They are utterly untrue.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I can tell the Deputy that where we see an anomaly, we carry out a review with the local supervisors. We assess those individual testers to see if there is anything that is maybe outside of the norms, and where anything would be a problem, we address it and train it. However, we also need to be mindful that, in some instances, there may be individuals who are presenting for a test who realistically are not ready. That could be driven by the fact they are trying to rush through the process rather than taking their time. We like to see a minimum of six months from when a person enters that learner to licence cycle to when he or she goes for the test. We will not accept a person for a test. We believe people need to practise and train.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some would have said I would have fitted into that bracket when I got my test, but that is for another day. I was delighted to get it at the time. I can only commend the tester.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

We will not revisit that situation. The Deputy should not tempt fate.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not believe we need to in any way, shape or form. Obviously, we had the ongoing situation as regards the test centre in Drogheda. We had white smoke and all the rest of it so everything is as it should be.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I am meeting the residents tomorrow to have a conversation with them. I am very happy the residents are prepared to meet us.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I presume it is for driving tests. I am very happy the residents have agreed to meet us. It is something on which I am very much looking forward to engaging with them, alleviating any of their concerns and making sure that, where there are concerns, we can put in place mechanisms that keep them satisfied and allow us keep that test centre active.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. With regard to the NCT, obviously, people are going through it and, in fairness, even the Chairman went over and back with regard to using the system. I do not know that we will ever be particularly happy with regard to how the slots appear or do not appear.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree. What sort of percentage of people actually take the option of - I do not want to use the wrong term - the cancellation list or priority list?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I would suggest we maybe hand over that question.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I said previously that I used it myself and it did deliver. What is it meant to be delivered in?

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is 20 days.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think it was considerably even shorter than that.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Calendar.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That works until the point that everybody uses it. I will be honest and I said previously that there was an element of confusion. I started looking when I got the letter from the RSA. I put in whatever dates but they were mad dates so I was not going to put myself on the priority list. As I said, I was not sure what the set-up was. I ended up ringing to make sure of the advice because it had not asked me to pay or anything. It is something that probably needs to be made clear.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The question was about the percentage. I am not sure I have the percentage to hand. Ultimately, we saw approximately 750,000 people cycled through the priority last year.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I would guess we did 1.4 million.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Nearly half of them.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Applus was able to deliver within the timeline it promised.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The charter obligation was relaxed until October. Once it was reintroduced in October, we have been able to deliver against it since.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

It was not a focus of ours because it was not-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Exactly.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long would some of those people have waited on that priority list?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The average lead time for January was 25.8 days. That was the average. Many people who go onto the priority list have specific requests. They may not want it for a period of time or they are only available at weekends or whatever else. That tends to result in them being on the list a little bit longer than the norm.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It happened at a particular time of year that it made more sense. Even at that, I still ended up with two meetings at the same time. Luckily enough, my wife was willing to facilitate. I will not say happily but she was willing to facilitate.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

What time of year would it have been?

Mr. Mark Synnott:

July and August would be the highest time for annual leave. That is when staff take time off.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

An emissions test is the only difference.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

At the moment.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Not a huge amount. Electric vehicles are driven by approximately 14% of the population.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

It is not going to be a dramatic change.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The target for an NCT test is 12 days.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Regarding the driver test and the ten-week target-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

My and my team's priority is to achieve the ten weeks. We are at 19 weeks currently and our priority is to achieve the ten-week target. Once we achieve that, then we will be happy to consider something different. Our priority, however, is to achieve the ten-week target in the first instance.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will hand over to Mr. Walsh.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Regarding where we will be, we are working with the Department of Transport on securing additional sanction to allow us to bring in additional temporary testers, 40 to be precise.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

On top of what we have at the moment, which is a full-time complement of 130 people. This figure was previously 100, so it was increased. It is not enough people. We need more and we are working with our colleagues in the Department on this issue. Mr. Waide has been engaged with the senior officials as well to let them know we are working hard on this aspect. Regarding how we expect this to pan out, if we are successful in securing sanction from the Department of Transport then we will expect to start the process in March. That is a reasonable period of time. It will take us up until October 2023 to reach the point where we will physically have people doing tests, because they must be recruited, evaluated, assessed, do a driving test and then be trained. We also-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

If we were to get the extra 40 testers, and we would need sanction for that to be approved in March, they will be on the ground in October. We will be back to the ten-week test date by July 2024.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

They would be. We have requested temporary testers but in conjunction with the recruitment process and bringing them on board we will continue to evaluate the demand on the service. As Mr. Waide alluded to at the beginning, and as I also referred to earlier, the service demand level now is unprecedented and it is not slowing down. I recently checked-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That is exactly the reason.

Mr. Sam Waide:

This is an important point because the driving test service, until recently, if we were to go back to 2014 and 2015, crudely speaking, it has had a flat line in demand. Most recently, though, it has been climbing and climbing. The term "long-term planning" was used. It is a case of, as I said earlier to committee members, a service that is growing in demand, in the medium and long term, and for all the reasons mentioned earlier in respect of a growing population, an increasing need and people, and not just young people, but including those in their 40s, 50s and 60s, applying for a licence for the first time ever. There is-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes. This is positive.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Absolutely. If we are, therefore, considering long-term planning, and the demand is there-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

That is the commitment. Earlier, the-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes, we have. The request made earlier was that we sit down with representatives of the Department and discuss the need for permanent testers. We have committed to this.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It needs 170.

Mr. Sam Waide:

As the Acting Chair said himself-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

No. I said previously that our priority is ten weeks. In the context of the NCT, reference was made to electric vehicles. The roads are getting more complex. There are different types and modes of travel. We are looking at the driving test and the curriculum there. I refer not just to hazard perceptions but the roads getting more complex for people who are learning to drive and completing the test, and the test will need to reflect this development. There are multiple facets to the driving test.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We have sufficient testers at the moment to deal with the demand due currently. Our problem is that there is a backlog that needs to be worked through as well. We would like another 30 or so people, and then expect that number to decrease once we reach-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

No, permanent people, but there is always a degree of-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

I am here for road safety. I am not-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

In that regard, it is self-funding but any money generated from it is reinvested in road safety.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Just to make a quick point, the Acting Chair referred to trucks and buses. I would like to clear up the fact that the waiting time for driver tests truck and bus licences is ten to 12 weeks. It is actually less. It is the tests for cars that take 19 weeks, which is 95% of the demand.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Absolutely.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is with regret that I say that there were 18 fatalities in January 2023. The Acting Chair is right that comparing January, like-for-like, over the last four or five years, we are going backwards in this regard. In 2022, there were a high number of fatalities. There were several reasons for this. The Minister, the agencies and the RSA are meeting tomorrow to discuss this matter and look at prioritisation for 2023. Speeding on rural roads was a key feature of the fatalities in 2022. The non-wearing of seat belts, particularly by drivers, prevails. This was not just in 2022. Data from between 2015 and 2019 confirm that more than 40% of driver fatalities occurred because the drivers were not wearing seat belts. There is-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes. This is information based on coronial data from between 2015 and 2019. This non-wearing of seat belts prevails in 2022. I must say that I and my colleagues from the RSA are here to save lives and reduce these incidents of collisions, serious injuries and fatalities.

Mr. Sam Waide:

No, they are not. An Garda Síochána, the RSA and other agencies are working to identify what we can prioritise in 2023. There are a number of actions and measures within the road safety strategy, but there is a need to prioritise key actions to try to not just curb but reduce the fatality rate.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is speed. Drink and drug driving is a significant causal factor-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

In combination, the multiple risk factors are drink and drug driving coupled with speed. I am happy to share this information and these insights with the committee. As I stated, this is being reviewed this week and the Minister of State, Deputy Jack Chambers, is involved in this.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My next question is for the RSA. An issue in Munster was brought to my attention. I will not give any more geographical detail because it would help to identify the case, but it relates to a driving tester who was serially rejecting students from a certain motoring school. Someone has come to me on a number of occasions with great of anger and frustration regarding the RSA's intervention in this matter. I have spoken to the person involved and they seem very professional in the work they do, and the complaint seems to be a genuine case. What processes does the RSA have in place to engage with that sort of person? If such a matter were brought directly to the attention of Mr. Waide or Mr. Walsh, would they commit to re-engaging with that driving instructor to determine whether they are being heard?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I am aware of the case the Deputy is referring to. We carried out a full investigation internally and investigated the allegations that had been made. The individual against whom the allegations were made totally rejected them and our findings found nothing to support the claim. The situation has since been lifted to the Ombudsman for consideration. I am satisfied my team has looked into the matter in the most stringent and professional manner.

In that type of environment, where a supplier, as an ADI, provides a service to customers who then go in for driving tests, something needs to be looked at if there is a high fail rate, whether that is retraining of the ADI, reconsideration of the circumstances of the test and so on. My team looked into the matter and was satisfied there had been no wrongdoing, but it has been escalated to the Ombudsman.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of driving tests, a large number of drivers have learner permits. Although more than 11,000 of them have been disqualified in court since 2016, only 722 of them, according to information I have, have surrendered their permit to the RSA, which is required by law. This was raised in a parliamentary question previously. Why is this allowed to happen and what steps is the authority taking to follow up on that matter?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Once a decision is made whereby a driver is disqualified, the onus is on the driver to surrender his or her licence. If an individual does not comply with what is a court order as a result of disqualification, it is a matter for An Garda Síochána.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a Garda issue and it does not concern the RSA.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

We do not have a right to enforce the law on individuals, particularly pertaining to a decision by the courts.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the RSA communicated with An Garda Síochána that it has a concern this issue is not being followed up? The figures show clearly that of 11,000 drivers who have been disqualified, only 722 have surrendered their permits. Have the witnesses followed up on that matter with An Garda Síochána? Mr. Waide stated the primary purpose of them appearing before the committee relates to road safety, and this is a serious road safety issue, perhaps the most serious when a court determines someone should not be behind the wheel of a car.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

There is continuous engagement between my team and An Garda Síochána. I will take the matter away and revert to the Deputy with the exact details on what steps have been taken so far.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I might add that a multiagency group, comprising An Garda Síochána, the RSA, Courts Service and Department of Transport, deals with a broader driver disqualification question, and this matter is addressed in part by that formal group. I agree that, as one of the authorities, it is the RSA’s responsibility to support and work with An Garda Síochána and the Courts Service to address this. Ultimately, it is in everyone's interest that we ensure those who choose to disobey the law on the roads are not on the road illegally.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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When those court cases relating to an individual who has lost his or her licence arise, does the RSA send a representative to the court to participate in the trial?

Mr. Sam Waide:

We are aware of specific cases but An Garda Síochána is the main representative at those kinds of trials.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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There would not be RSA personnel.

Mr. Sam Waide:

In terms of court cases, although this might not be what the Deputy is referring to, we attend court relating to cases that may involve commercial drivers, given we work in partnership with An Garda Síochána for enforcement purposes. For car drivers, however, we do not attend.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps most important, has the RSA calculated how many people it expects may be entitled to refunds, based on the figures in quarter 4? Is there an estimate as to how many motorists who paid for an NCT may be entitled to a full refund of their fee?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

As we said earlier, we continuously engage with Applus on that and it has told us nothing is owed. We have a service provider that is looking into the exact quarter 4 data, and if we see from those data that individuals should have had a free test, Applus will rebate those test fees to those customers.

Mr. Sam Waide:

To answer the Deputy's question, the matter is being reviewed.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From time to time, cases come to the constituency offices of Oireachtas Members that merit intervention relating to people being unable to obtain a driver's licence, where they might have been waiting a long time to get it. In the past, if people communicated with the RSA, they might have been able to be accommodated through the NDLS system. I ask the witnesses to ensure that if there is a case where there are genuinely urgent grounds, whether that is a medical issue or where a person's career is dependent on the licence, some leniency will be shown by the RSA. I understand the system is not as generous as it was in the past to people who contacted the authority. A few of these cases have come to me in my short time in Leinster House and it would be good to be able to help people in that position.

I thank the witnesses for their time.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Mr. Walsh has the information and I can share the headlines before I hand over to him. Furthermore, I will commit to providing that information to the committee in writing. Mr. Walsh can update the committee on Moldova and other countries, but I might point out that one of the requests or suggestions from the committee in October related to engaging with the US Embassy, which we have done. Working with other countries, particularly the US-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

At the committee meeting in October, we flagged the fact that particular states have a vested interest in Ireland and have employees coming to live and work in Ireland because they have head offices here.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Absolutely. We have engaged with the US Embassy and we are progressing that. Mr. Walsh might give some details on Moldova and other countries.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

In advance of coming here we wanted to look into the Moldovan situation. What I can tell the Acting Chair is that in early 2022 we rejected the exchange agreement with Moldova. Through additional engagement with my team and the individuals from the Moldovan authority, I can say that there are discussions and that changes have been made on the Moldovan side that align it more with the EU licence. We are carrying out further reviews. There is progress and it is moving forward.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

This is the objective but we need the Moldovan authority to implement certain structures before we can do this.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I do not. We hope to have some clarity in the middle of this year.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Honestly it has not expressed this frustration to me. I met a representative approximately two months ago. We came to a very amicable agreement on what we could do for the sector. This is being implemented since last Sunday with night-time testing to support the sector. The price is out of date. I am speaking from memory but I believe we came to a better agreement with it which it appeared to be satisfied with.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I will go back and check the rate but I think that was-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

It is an important symptom of Covid and the lack of new cars that are available. This is a sector that never before had to engage with the NCT and now it does.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Exactly. As far as I am aware we have come to a very amicable arrangement with it and it is working.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Absolutely.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I absolutely agree.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That is a symptom and not the root cause. The root cause is that we have not been able to balance capacity with demand. We are getting there. We have improved things dramatically in recent weeks.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I agree and we have seen that transformation too.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

The issue is that there is not sufficient capacity to meet the demand.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes, for the foreseeable future.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is a driving test centre.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the name of the campaign relating to perception?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Hazard perception test.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should do a piece of work on this. We were speaking about dealing with virtual driving. In this context it would be worthwhile. It would be interesting to see where we go with delivering on it.

Mr. Sam Waide:

As suggested by Deputy Crowe earlier, I am happy to meet and share our thinking on this and discuss it further outside of the committee.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that and I will definitely take Mr. Waide up on it. He could be sorry about it afterwards.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have capacity versus demand and we are talking about the end of the second quarter with regard to the NCT and 610-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Employed at present and we will continue to recruit.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An extra 30 should-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That is where things are at.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The big disaster is that it will take until the middle of 2024 to deliver driving tests. In a perfect world the RSA would have 170 permanent staff. Is this on top of-----

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

That is the full complement.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This has been coming down the road - no pun intended - for a long time. What would the RSA's ask have been, and how early would it have been, to the Department and Government? Why at this point in time if 170 permanent staff are needed is it looking for a smaller number of non-permanent staff?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I attempted to explain this earlier and I will happily go through it again. Back in 2020 there was an original request to the Department for 80 temporary testers. Sanction was approved in December-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why did the RSA opt for temporary workers at that stage?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

I do not know. To be honest I was not party-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will answer that question. The request was based on a two-year period and it was deemed sufficient to get through the Covid-19 backlog. What was not available in 2020 was the unprecedented increase in demand in the last quarter. There was a 36% increase. The world has changed in many ways since 2020 and that is where we are now.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I get that and I understand why some of it is. I imagine there is also an element, and I am not putting it on the witnesses, that a plan could have been based on future projections on the basis of changed demographics.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The projections done at the time were based on the data and what they showed. What we have seen since the first quarter of 2021 has never happened before. It is a totally new world. We thought it would reduce but the demand-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The RSA was dealing with old CSO figures at that stage. On what basis did the RSA make projections?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

The figures at that time were based on the historical information and reflected the request to the Department. The data we have now suggests that request needs to be for significantly higher. We are working with the Department so that hopefully while we can put in place the 40 temporary testers we will continue to monitor the service for another 12 months. For the past 16 months, demand has grown. If the demand is still there in 12 months, it will be the new norm and we will need to recalibrate the system. We believe we will then need 170 permanent testers.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The RSA is not quite sure it needs 170 permanent testers.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

Based on the data I have in front of me at present I am saying we need 170 testers.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is the request not for 170 testers?

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is. We have requested 130 plus 40.

Mr. Sam Waide:

This is why we are in discussions as we speak with the Department of Transport in this regard.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is an element of taking what it can get at this time but on the whole, the RSA's request is for 170 testers. In a perfect world, if the RSA could deliver what it needs and what we all need it would be 170 testers.

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is ultimately what the customer and the public require.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would all then be in a better scenario in relation to the calls we get. This issue needs to be followed up, as it seems that unless we are talking about those sorts of numbers, we will constantly be in this particular situation.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Chair, I have no doubt-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the shooting match.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

There is a limit of 21 months. That is the most vehicles can be out of date before they roll forward and become due again in the future. That is a nuance of the legislation. To answer the Chair's question, yes we do.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

There are 40,000-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Let me answer that because we do have those data. As of right now, we do not look at motor tax. We ask has the vehicle been in motor tax in the past three months, because that is a good indicator of what it likely to be presented to us. If we were to go from today, we would knock 40,000 vehicles off that waiting list right away because they are out of tax right now. We give a window which probably overemphasises the level of vehicles that are overdue but it is one that has been proven over time. If it has been on the road in the last three months, from what we can see in the system there is a good chance it will present for an NCT.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

We do. There is not a huge volume of those so motor tax is by far the biggest indicator for us. What we also know is that there are vehicles that are sitting in garage forecourts and that have been taken off the road for whatever reason. We have no visibility to that and no understanding of how to zero in on that.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

They could be motor taxed because the tax is paid in advance but equally the vehicles could have been traded in and could now have been sitting on a garage forecourt for months at a time before they come to us.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I can certainly provide those data.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That may be so.

Mr. Sam Waide:

We have never done it to the best of my knowledge. It is something-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

It is of concern but it is a specific ask which we can certainly confirm with Applus and the Department of Transport.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will take that as an action.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

I think I can answer the Actin Chair's question in a slightly different way. Typically, we see around 95% compliance after 12 months. It takes 12 months to get to a 95% compliance rate-----

Mr. Mark Synnott:

That goes back to my earlier point that there are typically 170,000 to 200,000 vehicles that are habitually not subjected to an NCT. I am sure the reasons for that can be varied but that is the average number we see on a day-to-day basis.

Mr. Mark Synnott:

Yes.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I am drawing my breath at the moment after going from one meeting to the next.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we will leave it until the next day.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I will make a brief point because it has been made over and over again. I have tried to watch part of the debate and I thank the witnesses for their attendance. I will go back to the point about issuing licences. I am talking about category C licences for trucks and lorries in particular. Businesses are expanding and have jobs for workers and are waiting four or five months for a driving licence test. It is causing a lot of frustration. I know we have had difficulties and issues and Covid-19 and all of that but we have to try to do better in that regard. I have one case where a person was waiting almost four months and that has been sorted out. There is another person waiting and I hope that will be sorted out but it is still too long where firms have got extra business.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

It is still within the service level agreement, SLA.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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There is someone talking about four months. One case has been sorted out now, one case has not and I hope it will be done in the next week or two. However I want to make the genuine that it is very frustrating for a small business. This person worked on the floor of this factory, he was going to go driving on the road and the firm then had to put him to one side for three months as there was no work for him because he could not get his driving test. The good thing is that he got it very recently. He passed and was successful and can go on the road. I have been asked by a small business to make the point that it is extremely frustrating in terms of urgently needing workers and wanting them to start and for them to get their driving test. We have to wait, within reason, for five or six weeks but we should be able to get those sorts of cases further.

By the way, from dealing with the RSA in the past I want to acknowledge its support and help and how it tried to help out but we really need to get those things done more quickly.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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It is so frustrating for businesses-----

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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-----and I am basically talking about family businesses.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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On that point, to be honest, we have had cases involving front-line workers where the RSA has been very good when we explained the cases to it over recent years. However in some of those cases, particularly for driving trucks or lorries, it is affecting businesses and they are frustrated with that.

Mr. Brendan Walsh:

If I may give a quick update regarding the C and D licences, ten to 12 weeks is how long the wait for a test will be. In the haulage sector in particular, there has been a big influx of drivers from abroad. Last year we had around 20,600 drivers come in and we processed their licences within 35 days on average. The last time we appeared before the committee, members asked us to try to improve that. My team did a great job on that and they have now got it down to 32 days and we continue to try to find efficiencies to speed up that processing. As for Friday of last week, we have had 1,243 applications for foreign licences and only 86 of those are currently waiting. We listened to the committee and were very thankful for the steer from it the last time we were here and we implemented a corrective process and will continue to do so to enhance the customer experience.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that and the RSA is obviously trying to fix the situation and that is very good news. I hope it continues to improve.