Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome everyone to the second public session of the committee. I have received apologies from Senator Mark Wall, who has been ill for the last couple of weeks. We wish him well.

Before we begin, I will read some formal notices, starting with the Covid-19 code of conduct. The Ceann Comhairle, Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl, and the Cathaoirleach, Senator Mark Daly, published a Covid-19 code of conduct for the parliamentary community in May. Members, staff and visitors are requested to continue to be vigilant and to follow public health advice on preventing the spread of Covid-19 infection so we can manage the risk for ourselves and for others who are more vulnerable, including colleagues and their family members who may be elderly and-or have underlying health conditions. All members of the parliamentary community and visitors are strongly encouraged to wear face masks – not visors – in busy or crowded locations in the Leinster House complex. Medical grade FFP2 masks should be worn whenever recommended by the public health advice and should be worn for ten days after diagnosis of Covid-19. This will help to reduce the risk of Covid-19 spreading among the parliamentary community. I ask for everyone's full co-operation in this regard.

On privilege, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the parliamentary precincts will be asked to leave.

The first item on our agenda concerns the minutes of our previous meetings, which the members will have received on MS Teams. Are the minutes of our meetings on 16 June, 22 June and 28 June agreed? Agreed.

I warmly welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, who has special responsibility for special education and inclusion, and officials from the Department of Education. The committee appreciates the Minister of State taking the time to come before us this morning while preparations are under way for the Committee and Remaining Stages of the Education (Provision in Respect of Children with Special Educational Needs) Bill 2022 in the Dáil tomorrow. The Bill will allow the Minister for Education to direct schools to provide places in special classes to children with special educational needs, SEN, a topic very relevant to this committee. In our second session this morning, we will hear from representatives of the teaching unions, namely the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, and the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland, ASTI.

Before we hear from the Minister of State, I propose that we publish her opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I suggest that the Minister of State should make her opening statement for ten minutes, following which we will have questions and comments from each member, limited initially to three minutes. If we have time remaining, members can come back in. Our session today is for one hour. It was meant to be for one and a half hours, but unfortunately the Minister of State is caught for time in the context of the preparation of the legislation. I thank her for taking the time to attend. We felt it was important that she came into this committee prior to the legislation being enacted. I invite her now to make her opening statement.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the committee for the invitation. I am accompanied by Brendan Doody, assistant chief inspector, special education; Frank Hanlon, principal officer, special education; and Andrina Donovan, assistant principal officer, special education.

The mission of the Department of Education is to facilitate all individuals through learning to achieve their full potential and to ensure that the education system upholds the rights of every individual. The subject of this meeting is autism policy in education and as Minister of State with special responsibility for education and inclusion, I am committed to making a difference for students who have additional needs as part of an inclusive education system. My Department’s policy is to ensure that all children with special educational needs can be provided with an education appropriate to their needs. This means that children with special educational needs should be included where possible and appropriate in mainstream settings with the necessary additional teaching and care supports in place. In circumstances where children with special educational needs require more specialised interventions, special school or special class places are provided for. I fully recognise that these more specialist supports and settings also have an important role to play.

It should be noted that the vast majority of children with special educational needs are educated in mainstream classes. The benefits of mainstream education are known and recognised. We must continue to build a society with inclusion at its heart, where everyone is welcome and where full participation is the right of all people, no matter their background or need. While the overwhelming majority of our students are to be found in mainstream provision, we recognise the need to ensure that those students with more complex and enduring special educational needs are provided for as effectively as possible. In recent years, we have made great progress in providing the additional special class and special school places necessary to meet the emerging needs of children and young people, particularly those with autism.

This year, my Department will spend over €2 billion, or more than 25% of its total education budget, on providing additional supports for children with special educational needs. This represents an increase of over 60% in total expenditure since 2011. The number of special classes in mainstream schools has increased from 548 in 2011 to 2,118 for the 2021-22 school year. A further 315 special classes have since been sanctioned, which will bring the total number of classes to at least 2,463 in the 2022-23 school year. This represents an increase of 349% since 2011. The vast majority of our special classes are provided for children with autism. There are now 2,184 special classes for children with autism in place: 146 early intervention autism special classes, 1,401 primary autism special classes and 637 post-primary autism special classes. Special classes to support children with significant special educational needs are substantially smaller than mainstream classes and have a pupil-teacher ratio as low as 6:1 and will have special needs assistants, SNAs, assigned to look after the pupils' care needs. Special classes for children with autism, for example, have one teacher and two SNAs for six children.

Overall, almost 13,000 pupils are enrolled in special classes in mainstream primary and post-primary schools, representing approximately 1% of the overall pupil population. Three new special schools have been opened in the last three years, two in Dublin and one in Cork, and additional places continue to be provided to ensure that children with the most complex educational needs, including those with autism, receive an education in line with their needs. We have worked hard to strengthen and streamline the planning systems between the Department and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, to ensure sufficient special education places are available to meet needs throughout the country.

Significant investment has been made to ensure that schools have the necessary accommodation and facilities to receive children and young people with disabilities.

Professional development for teachers and school leaders is key to building capacity and confidence among teachers and their leaders and a truly inclusive culture and school environment. A comprehensive range of in-service teacher professional learning opportunities allows those working at all levels of education to access supports which will benefit all learners, including those with autism. Annually, the Department of Education provides funding for two distinct categories of postgraduate programmes for special education teachers, namely the postgraduate diploma programme of continuing professional development, CPD, for special education teachers and the graduate certificate in the education of pupils on the autism spectrum. The aim is to provide substantial theoretical and practical CPD to teachers working with students with special educational needs, contributing to the school's overall capacity to meet the needs of pupils with SEN, including autism.

I recognise the need for schools and teachers to have access to high-quality resources and supports to inform their practice every day. I was pleased, therefore, to announce the publication of Autism Good Practice Guidance for Schools in March 2022 as a resource for schools and others. This important document is designed to help to support the well-being, learning and participation of children and young people with autism in education. It will assist school staff to understand the varied nature of students' strengths and needs and to identify whole-school and individualised approaches to supports for students.

We are also reviewing the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004, known as the EPSEN Act. That legislation, as the committee will know, has been in place for almost 20 years, and it is timely that we are reviewing it now. There have been many significant changes and developments in departmental policy since the EPSEN Act, and education provision has increased very substantially in the intervening period. There has also been legislative change that impacts education. This review will help to ensure our laws reflect current policy on and international norms in respect of provision and inclusion. It is envisaged that the full review will be completed by early 2023.

Supporting the transition of young people with a disability right through the education system, with a particular focus on enabling young people to make informed life choices, is a priority for me. We are working with colleagues across a number of Departments to ensure that remains a focus of the third action plan under the comprehensive employment strategy for persons with disabilities, which will cover the period from 2022 to 2024.

The development of a demonstration transition programme has been agreed to address the transition needs of young people with disabilities in the two-year run-up to their departure from school. Under the proposal, the pilot will take place on 20 project sites with representation from a cross section of schools to include students with disabilities in mainstream post-primary settings, located in special classes attached to mainstream and in special schools.

I announced on 15 November a further planned development in the area of transition; namely, a transitions pilot for post-primary level students with special education needs. This measure will involve the Department partnering with an NGO with experience in this area and a number of schools, identified following a call for participation, to support the transition of post-primary level students with SEN to employment, training or further study. Under the proposal, the pilot will take place on seven project sites. Each one will partner with a careers and employment facilitator to engage with students and their parents and to collaborate with teachers in complementary activities such as mini companies, work experience and transition planning. This development is in the initiation phase and is planned to progress later this year.

I believe representatives of the NCSE have been before the committee recently. As members will know, it was set up in 2003 with the aim of improving the delivery of education services to persons with SEN, with a particular emphasis on children. I recently appointed the new CEO of the NCSE, John Kearney, who I believe will make the necessary changes to reform the organisation. There are legacy issues that need to be addressed. I am well aware of that and I will put in place the necessary resources in order to achieve that. The Department of Education continues to work with the NCSE, all the education stakeholders and, of course, schools to seek to continue to improve education provision for children and young people with SEN.

There are a significant number of policy initiatives and various legislation relevant to the provision of education for children and young people with SEN. In particular, the NCSE's final report offering policy advice on special schools and classes will be submitted to the Department later this year. It will inform the Department in making decisions on the direction of special education policy in the coming years, including in respect of special school and special class provision.

The committee asked for a statement on the Department's plans to increase the number of post-primary special schools. This is specifically in reference to the disparity in the number of primary special schools and post-primary special schools in Dublin. It should be noted that all special schools are categorised by the Department as primary special schools. There are no post-primary special schools. While there are a small number of special schools which cater largely to post-primary-aged students, those special schools remain primary special schools. Therefore, they operate for the primary year, which means that the students attend throughout June. Furthermore, 60% of our post-primary schools have either an existing special class or a project on the school building programme which will provide SEN accommodation. Last year I secured an agreement to introduce future-proofing at post-primary level involving the incorporation of four special classes in all new 1,000-student post-primary schools and other large-scale projects and pro ratafor medium-sized to smaller schools. We have also successfully engaged with the Spiritan Education Trust on SEN provision at its school sites, including its post-primary schools in the fee-charging sector. We are opening new special schools in response to emerging demand and looking at new opportunities to enhance how children with SEN are supported while awaiting school places. The Ombudsman for Children's report recommends that the Department and the NCSE publish a plan for ensuring there are sufficient school places in the short to medium term to meet the forecasted needs of children with SEN in their local communities. I welcomed the ombudsman's report. I have accepted its recommendations and will work with stakeholders to implement them.

I am committed to engaging intensely with schools, particularly post-primary schools, to ensure that there is an adequate supply of special classes and, ultimately, that every school will have special education provision.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for that comprehensive statement. As agreed at our most recent private meeting, the list of speaking slots for today has been circulated. There are three minutes per member for questions and answers. First we have Senator Ardagh.

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for attending the meeting. I am really glad she congratulated the Spiritans on their recent collaboration with the Department of Education. They are really leading the way, and I hope other educational organisations will follow suit. The Minister of State has done a lot of work in this field. I thank her for opening Our Lady of Hope School, in my area, Dublin 12, with the Minister, Deputy Foley, earlier in the year.

As we know, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. One of the big issues that concerns me is the fact that, as the NCSE confirmed last week, early intervention classes cannot be accessed without a confirmed diagnosis of autism. This does not fall within the remit of the Minister of State's Department, but children are not getting diagnosed because of the huge delays in diagnosis. That has a direct impact on children accessing early intervention classes. It leaves us in a space where only the children of the rich can access early intervention classes provided for by the State. That is hugely unfair on children. All children should have equal access to these classes. On top of that, in areas like Dublin 6 and Dublin 6W there are not any early intervention classes. I hope the Minister of State will be able to use the new emergency legislation, namely section 37A of the Education (Provision in Respect of Children with Special Educational Needs) Bill 2022, to ensure that schools open early intervention classes. We all know that early intervention is key, and these classes can make a huge difference to children when it is clear very early on that they have an autism diagnosis.

I am really glad the Minister of State mentioned transition into the workforce and the pilot programmes. That is very much welcome. However, when we open special schools and autism classes around the country, it is really important we have wrap-around services like occupational therapists, OTs, physios and speech and language therapists. That is just not there at the moment. I know the Minister of State is well aware of that, but it is prudent of us as members of the autism committee to call once again for proper services to be attached to these autism classes and special schools around the country because they do not really function without the OT, the speech and language therapist, the physio or the behavioural therapist. It is sort of like an ICU bed. Many of the advocates would describe special education provision as such. You need not just a bed but also all the wrap-around services to provide for children in order that they have the support they need.

I thank the Minister of State. I would appreciate hearing her thoughts on the diagnosis piece when it links in to early intervention in schools.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Senator for her comments on Our Lady of Good Hope school and some of the work we are doing there. As regards early intervention, as she is aware, the ECCE scheme provides two years of preschool for all children at no charge. The access and inclusion model, AIM-----

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not asking the Minister of State to address the AIM scheme. I do not agree with it at all. I am specifically referring to the early intervention classes. They have nothing to do with the AIM system or ECCE.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. I was just putting it into context. The AIM enables full inclusion and meaningful participation of children with SEN. Diagnosis of autism is not required to access the AIM scheme and those supports.

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not true. The NCSE told us last week that one needs an autism diagnosis to access early intervention classes. The delegate from the NCSE was very specific and clear on that.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My understanding is that a diagnosis of autism is not required to access AIM supports. The AIM includes seven levels of progressive support, mainly from universal to targeted-----

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not asking about AIM support. I am asking about-----

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am getting to early intervention.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please let the Minister of State answer the question.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is based on the needs of the child and the preschool setting. More than 4,000 children have already received support through AIM.

As regards early intervention classes, there were 132 such classes in the 2021-22 school year. We had 118 of them in 2015-16. The NCSE sanctioned the establishment of special classes, including early intervention where needed. There have been occasions when these classes have been redesignated into special classes. That occurs in circumstances where there is a changing age profile of students, a change in needs in an area or to ensure a continuum of support for pupils who require a special class placement. That rarely happens, however.

The Senator asked about therapeutic supports. Obviously, some children need additional supports for them to realise their potential. There are approximately 63 special classes for children with severe speech and language disorders. The inspectorate report on the work of these classes indicated that schools highly value the services of speech and language therapists, SLTs, who are allocated to support the work of special classes. Many SLTs have shared professional knowledge effectively with teachers. In short, this approach works but it is not perfect. The progressing disability service is really under the remit of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. Its introduction has had an impact on the provision of therapeutic supports for children with SEN in schools. There are significant recruitment issues in that regard. One third of all posts remain unfilled at present, including SLTs and OTs. That has had a big impact on therapeutic supports, particularly in special schools. All present know of the benefits of such supports. As Minister of State, I accept that. The principle underpinning the school inclusion model, which will involve psychologists, OTs and SLTs working collaboratively with schools, will be of value. There is an issue in terms of recruitment of therapists, however, and we are working closely on that with my colleagues in the Department of Health and the HSE to ensure we can provide the therapeutic supports to which the Senator is referring.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State. I ask members to keep their questions within the time limit or we will not get to all members who wish to speak.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for all the work she has been doing on this issue. Classes have opened across my constituency and there are more to come. What in her perception or experience brought her to the point where she believed there is a need for the legislation she is introducing? What was the genesis of the legislation? What is the need for it? Having gone through a collaborative process with many schools and seen the output from that, I know many schools have been able to provide classes. Other schools in my constituency face challenges in doing so. What is the need for the legislation?

I refer to a particular issue relating to the legislation. I am aware of a child in fifth class in a school in my area who has been told that his needs are such that the school will not be able to provide support next year. The school is working hard to provide support to the child but it does not have enough SNAs or resources. There is a conflict that does not need to be there. I hope it can be resolved. The child does not need to be moved at this point. It may be that the school needs more support. The child has fewer SNA hours available to him as he gets older because, as more children come in, there are more children with a diagnosis. He has gone from, say, a one-to-one situation in the early part of his schooling to a one-to-five or one-to-six situation now. What will happen to that child and others like him who I worry are caught up in the difficulties faced by schools? The schools do not have space to open extra classes just yet and have to operate on their existing resources. The child to whom I refer is getting older and does not need to be moved. What will happen there? What effect will the legislation have for him and other children like him whose parents are worried they may need to move schools? That is my main question.

I note the comments of the Minister of State regarding the document published in April in respect of departmental support for schools that have opened additional classes. A secondary school in my area has opened two additional classes. I congratulate the school, St. Laurence College, on that, but it needs more support from the Department in terms of implementation. The Department has published a document. Is there someone in the Department whom a school can telephone between now and the opening of the classes in September in order to work out some of the practicalities? Some of the school's questions are simple ones. Is that something the Department can provide?

As regards teacher education, it is great that CPD and extra classes are available but what I am hearing from teachers and schools is that they can be difficult to access. It can be difficult to get places on the weekend or shorter courses. There is a question in respect of whether teachers can take time off to do more intensive courses. It is all very well opening classes, but which teachers will teach those classes? What training have they received? The current teacher training gives students two weeks in a special school where they do not even have an obligation to prepare a lesson plan. What preparation is available to teachers who want to do that? Schools are asking if the Department can consider facilitating structured time away for existing and experienced teachers who may have very good teaching and social skills but want to get better at this to do the appropriate training?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. She asked several questions. Her first was on the legislation. Obviously, I would prefer to be in a position where schools volunteer to open special classes. However, in circumstances where we still have 56 children in Dublin without a special class and approximately 49 children who do not have a special school place, we had no option but to bring forward the legislation. This relates even to some of the schools that have been named, such as Scoil Bhríde boys school in Blanchardstown, which is a very diverse school that welcomes migrant children from many different backgrounds and already has a special class. It is not that these schools are not already inclusive; it just means that some of them will need to open second special classes and others will open a special class for the first time. We do not want to be in a position every year where we are scrambling to try to open special classes at the last minute. The legislation will help to truncate the section 37A process so that there is a six to eight week timeline in which the Minister can give a direction or an order to compel a school to open a special class. It is always open to the school to open that special class earlier in the process. Indeed, the school would have already received letters from us. The section 37A process has worked on two occasions in the past. This is the third time we are triggering it. That is the reason we are bringing this legislation forward tomorrow. It will be of great assistance to families. It is a bittersweet act, one that we were reluctant to take, but we believed that we did not have an option.

In terms of SNAs, the Deputy is aware that the exceptional review process is available to schools. We will have approximately 19,169 SNAs by the end of the year, which is an increase of 81%.

There should not be a difficulty in a school accessing an SNA. It can be tricky sometimes if a child is moving from one different placement to another in those circumstances but a school should always contact the NCSE if it requires more SNA support or a child comes on stream, perhaps. Through this legislation, under section 67, a child will be able to be designated a placement in a school. That will be a new child and there may need to be additionality in the SNA support there. It is always open to them to do that.

I think the Deputy asked about training for teachers as well. She will know there is a mandatory inclusion module at the beginning for teachers, so all teachers are trained and they are qualified to teach. The NCSE will the give the advice primarily that you really need experienced teachers for special classes and special schools, but there is ongoing continuing professional development, CPD, and the national induction programme for teachers where there is a range of induction workshops for newly-qualified teachers. With the Department of Education, I mentioned earlier the two postgraduate programmes - the certificate and also the diploma programme on CPD as well, which is for special education teachers. Those two are very valuable. There is also the professional development service for teachers, where they provide quite a lot of different, varied modules and programmes. The NCSE itself has teacher professional learning, which is within the confines of the Teaching Council national framework and there are supports there. There is a complete suite of professional learning opportunities. If any teacher has an interest in pursuing this particular area they should contact the NCSE or indeed the Department because there are bespoke in-school supports that can be offered for whole school staffs, for small groups and for individuals. It can be tailored as well to specific needs of the particular school.

I mentioned earlier the Autism Good Practice Guidance for Schools, which we only published in March of this year. It is really critical, especially for this committee to know about, because it is specifically around ASD and it is developed as a resource for schools to support them to support the needs of autistic children. It will assist leaders, SNAs and teachers. The guidance was developed by an expert working group drawn from the NEPS, the NCSE, the inspectorate and of course the Middletown Centre for Autism.

I am sorry Chairman. There were a lot of questions.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know. I thank the Minister of State. Maybe members could give the Minister of State time within their time to make the answers. Otherwise we are going to run completely over time, and we do not want that to happen.

Deputy Tully is next.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chairman and wish the Minister of State good morning. The Minister of State referenced that she is in favour of and aspires to inclusive education. However, the special units she proposed a few weeks ago could not be further from inclusion. Has that proposal been completely withdrawn at this stage? We all know children will blossom if they are in the correct setting with sufficient resources and that is what we want to see. I am aware it is necessary now to bring in the emergency legislation because there are insufficient places this year but it is something that is happening year after year. The NCSE was here last week and its officials indicated they have regular meeting with the Minister of State and with the Department. The council has the data on how many children have additional needs so why is there not proper planning to ensure there are sufficient places, especially for children progressing from primary to post-primary? They are in primary for eight years and their needs have to be known. We know they are going to need a place in a post-primary school in their area.

Also on the NCSE, I welcome the fact the Minister of State recognises it needs additional resources and will be providing them. The NEPS is in need of additional resources as well. I think it was pointed out last week the number of special educational needs organisers, SENOs, employed by the NCSE is lower now than when it was first established. That is something that needs to be addressed.

There is also the issue of the number of students who must travel outside their area to access appropriate education. More than 15,000 children travel. That is quite an expense. There is one area where it is costing over €72,000 per day to bus children to appropriate school placements outside their areas.

There are also 1,455 students in receipt of home tuition. That may be a choice for some but for many it is not and is being done because the school placement has broken and children were unable to access an appropriate school placement. I am wondering what plans the Minister of State has to address those issues.

It has also been referred to that we need more places within our schools for children with additional needs but the place is not the only thing that is needed; we need more qualified teachers, SNAs, resources and sensory rooms, etc. I have been told of cases where a young, newly-qualified teacher has been told by the principal that he or she will take the special class for a year or two and then they will give him or her a full-time position. That is not fair on the children and not fair on the teacher either. Those teachers are not qualified. Many teachers will do their utmost to teach those children but then they will move on, so it is not fair on the children who are not getting appropriate education.

The Minister of State did not reference summer provision in her opening statement. What are the plans to improve that scheme, because something drastic needs to happen? It is too late for this year but for next year something needs to happen.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will try to answer as best I can. Obviously, any proposal the Department comes up with would need to be in agreement with the special education consultative forum I set up that comprises advocacy groups and other stakeholders. Any proposals, effectively, would need the forum's sign-off.

On the legislation and the planning, the Deputy will be aware that even the Ombudsman for Children noted and acknowledged the work over the past two years in terms of our forward planning. We now have a geographical information system, GIS, forecasting model where data is shared in real time from the planning and building unit with the NCSE. That was not done before so it should help with forward planning into the future. There is also the fact we now have a commitment from the Department that all new schools will automatically have an SEN base in future. That means 1,000 post-primary schools will have the four classrooms and then pro rata for medium-sized and smaller schools after that. That should make a big difference.

The inspectorate report on provision for students with autism was published in March 2022 and we are in the process of setting up a working group around that because obviously Covid interrupted it. However, some of the main findings are pertinent to the Deputy's question. Some schools, we found, are operating restrictions in their enrolment policies at primary and post-primary level. Some post-primary schools explicitly prioritised enrolment for students with higher cognitive functioning or for students who could easily integrate into mainstream classes which was thereby denying places for students with more complex needs. In fact, the enrolment policy for post-primary special classes was found to be clear in just half of the settings. The evidence would suggest learners with more pronounced autism needs and co-occurring learning needs encounter difficulties enrolling in special classes in these primary and post-primary schools. Some of them are directed towards home tuitiion or indeed special schools. The report also indicated some students' placement in a special class is inappropriate. There were students who should have been fully enrolled in mainstream classes because their needs did not merit special class support. There was also an issue around placement reviews. It is important to note that in the context of the Deputy's question.

She also mentioned transport. There are 15,500 children travelling. She is correct in that and we do not dispute what the Ombudsman for Children is saying. That is at a cost of €289 million per year. The first duty we have is to find an appropriate placement for a child. Then our second task is to try to ensure they can attend a placement in their locality. In Cavan there are 46 special classes and one special school and there are 36 in Monaghan at present. Obviously, it is completely desirable that a child would go to school in their locality but it is not always completely possible.

On summer provision, we are putting €40 million into that this year, as the Deputy knows. We expect an increase in participation this year and hope about 48,000 students will participate. There were about 38,000 participants last year. There has been an increase in uptake with special schools and classes over the past two years.

We also have inclusion programmes for Ukrainians and others.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We might set the clock at two minutes for members from now on. I apologise for this, but not every member will get to contribute otherwise.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will try to be brief. I welcome the Minister of State. Is the Department of Education planning further investment for this year to reduce the average class size by one pupil to bring it closer to the European average? A reduction in general class sizes would assist the delivery of services for disabled and autistic children. Will the Minister of State update us on the in-school therapies programme? Are there plans for further investment in the programme and to recruit more speech and language therapists to meet the increased demand? Next year, there will be a need for an extra 200 SNAs, speech and language therapists, etc. Will the Minister of State update us on the provision of reasonable accommodation at school more generally? Are there plans to increase the provision of supports in mainstream classrooms? Are there plans for greater co-ordination with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth regarding proposed reforms to the summer education programme over the coming years to support autistic students further? Is the Minister of State aware that there is no board of management at the Our Lady of Hope School in Crumlin? It also has no behavioural therapist, which it will need next year.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If a behavioural practitioner is required by the school, it should contact the NCSE in the first instance. The Deputy has asked me about the Our Lady of Hope School a number of times.

I took a note of most of the Deputy's questions. I believe one of them was on the school inclusion model, which is concerned with providing the right supports at the right time. It has a number of elements, including the provision of in-school therapies such as occupational therapy and speech and language therapy. There was a trial run in February 2019 with 75 participating schools and the outcomes for children were positive. Unfortunately, Covid interrupted it through the closure of schools and the diversion of HSE therapists from the project. However, the new pilot has recommenced in the area of community healthcare organisation, CHO, 7, which is where it was originally run. We are planning an expansion. The Department is consulting with other relevant Departments on this, including the Departments of the Taoiseach, Health and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, to ensure that we have sufficient therapists. The recruitment of therapists is a difficulty across the board, including for the HSE, but it is something that we want to do.

I believe the Deputy asked about summer provision. Did she have a specific question on it or was she wondering in general?

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked about the July summer education programme.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is going ahead this year. We are expecting to have significantly more children availing of the programme this year than last. We made a number of adjustments to July provision this year to ensure that the administrative burden was less difficult for schools, particularly in terms of payment and the employment of different staff to be in schools, be they teachers, SNAs or other assistants.

The Deputy referred to the board of management of Our Lady of Hope School. It is not unusual in situations where a school opens that there is not a board of management. Frequently, such schools are managed by a single manager until a board is formed. I anticipate that the school, which was only recently opened, is in discussions on forming a board of management.

The pupil-teacher ratio is a broader education issue. I can discuss the Deputy's point with the Minister for Education.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State and wish her well in what is a busy portfolio. I am conscious that some of my contribution will cross over into the responsibility of her colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, but both areas of responsibility come together with a common purpose in the betterment of our children.

Notwithstanding the Minister of State's legislation that the Dáil will be debating tomorrow, all educators in special education are wholeheartedly enthusiastic and value its place within the school system. It is important to note that several schools have been crying out for special education classes but have been struggling to get them. I am aware of a school in my area that had been chasing the NCSE for a letter of authorisation and only received it on the last day of term this year. It now has to scramble to get the classroom ready for the pupils. That level of response from the NCSE is not good enough. I hope that the Minister of State and her team can take some action on it.

I will follow up on an issue that Senator Ardagh mentioned, that being, children awaiting a diagnosis. We have a problem in children's disability network 8, CDN 8, in Longford, which probably has the largest number of children per capitaawaiting diagnosis in the country. As of 1 July, we had 186 children awaiting diagnostic screening and assessment for autism, the average waiting time was 31 months, and 37 children had been waiting for longer than 48 months. Per capita, that is probably the worst figure in the country. The Minister of State has acknowledged the significant challenges in trying to recruit therapists for these services. Currently, there are 4.5 vacancies in the Longford centre. Two of those are speech and language therapists. Most ironically of all, 0.8 of those posts is being filled through a speech and language therapist from an agency. I have made a proposal, supported by the schools in the area, to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, that we consider allocating emergency funding to allow the schools to source private therapy providers and bring them into the schools. There is a fundamental issue with the service in Longford. I am conscious of my speaking time, so is this something that the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, will give consideration to with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, given the severity of the crisis in Longford, as highlighted by the figures I have provided?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. What was his question about the NCSE? Did he say that the school had contacted the NCSE-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The approval only came through on the last day of term even though the school had been chasing it for several months because it was conscious that it would lose two incoming siblings if it did not have the class.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would encourage all schools that wish to open special classes to engage with the NCSE as soon as possible. It is heartening to hear that schools are willing to open special classes. They should not be refused unless there is some major reason.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It needs to be collaborative. When a school reaches out, we expect the full apparatus of the State to fall in behind it.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. That is how it should be.

Vis-à-visthe Deputy's question on access to special classes and special school places, I will discuss it with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. As the Deputy conceded, it is primarily under her remit. The nature and level of the education response in terms of special classes is based on the professionally assessed needs of each child. In terms of a special school, all children have to have a professional recommendation that says that they have complex or severe learning needs that require the support of a special school setting and the reasons for that being the case. In terms of a special class and early intervention, a diagnosis is required in order to ensure that the right supports are given to those with the greatest levels of need. The Department's policy is to try to get children into mainstream education if at all possible, but if they need special school classes or places, they will require diagnoses. The Disability Act provides for the assessment of the health and educational needs of persons with disabilities, which falls within the remit of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. The HSE makes an assessment through an assessment officer or another of its employees. An assessment officer prepares an assessment report and states in it whether there is a disability, the extent of that disability and a statement of health-led needs.

I appreciate there are waiting periods and I know the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is working really hard to reduce those and has done in certain cases. I will let her know about the Deputy's contribution and certainly pass on the comments to her.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State and her officials to today's meeting. Before I ask my first question, I assume she has the required delegated responsibility for the area of special needs. Will she confirm that?

We had a good engagement with the chief executive officer of the National Council for Special Education last week and he was open to the idea of re-examining and reappraising the threshold, that is, the numbers of students per special class. I can think of a couple of schools in my constituency that have requested the opening of a new class but they are not in a position to do it because other schools in the area, although not in the same community, have classes. Working on the assumption that the Minister of State has the delegated responsibility in this area, does she share the same opinion as the chief executive officer on re-examining that threshold? It is six per class currently. A reduced number would satisfy many parents who wish to keep their children in their own community.

It is not satisfactory that the system looks at a 20-mile radius but people who have sons and daughters in mainstream primary school classes are afforded the luxury of being kept in local communities. Under the current policy, if the classes do not fill to the required threshold, children with special needs may have to travel 20 km, 25 km or 30 km. That is against the express wishes of the school, the principal, the board of management and the parents' association, who have an aspiration or ambition to open another class. Under the current policy, they are not in a position to do so.

The NCSE and SENOs work under this policy and, in fairness, the SENOs see the value of keeping sons and daughters in their own communities. Under the current system, that threshold of six is a big number, especially in rural areas. It may cover an area between 25 km and 35 km across and parents who wish to keep children in a closer school may not be able to do so. This is the complete opposite to what is happening in the greater Dublin area, where there is pressure to get schools open. In my county, principals want to open classes but are not in a position to do it because of current policy.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a former Minister for Education and Skills, I take Deputy McHugh's contribution seriously, as I do with all members of the committee. I note his experience in the area. In Donegal there are 94 special classes and two special schools.

I have responsibility under the derogation order from the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, for special education. It is not the first time I have heard such comments about the numbers in a special class and there are different views on both sides. It is something we could consider although we would not be able to sign off on anything without the collaboration of stakeholders and unions around that, along with the school community itself. We could ask the principals' forum if it is something they feel they could provide. In a case where there are three children looking to enter a special class in circumstances where such places are available but it would not be properly sanctioned until there are six in the class, it must be looked at. I have also heard from some people they would like more pupils per class, such as eight or ten. That could also cause difficulties. It is worth exploring the option of allowing a class to go ahead where there are smaller numbers or with larger numbers if there are extra supports.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I omitted to note that apologies have been sent by Senator Róisín Garvey, who cannot be here today.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was asked to be brief and I will try. I have three questions. Last week, as the Minister of State knows, we had representatives of the NCSE before us. I asked if its planning and analysis of the need for school places was robust enough so the Department and schools could plan ahead. I ask the Minister of State the same question. Given the legislation we will deal with this week, does any aspect of the process need to be strengthened? That relates to planning.

My second question relates to the Minister of State's comment earlier about interest among teachers. Does she have an indication of that level of interest among teachers in providing special education? The Minister of State told us about supports for teachers already in place but has there been any reorientation with respect to teacher training models for new teachers? It is crucial for all teachers because if education is to be inclusive, there must be reorientation, but it is particularly important for teachers who want to specialise. It should be seen as an attractive proposal.

My final question concerns July provision. All of us receive so many emails from parents right across the country who are beyond distressed. One parent told me the family would be in lockdown until 1 September, and that gives an indication of how acute this problem is. In that context, has the Minister of State given thought to childcare practitioners, many with level 6 or level 7 qualifications, who have expressed an interest in providing July provision? I understand it is not something that can be done overnight but has that been considered and is the Minister of State planning for it?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Harkin for those questions. On the question of forward planning, there is a range of strategic initiatives we are building on and some of the recommendations were set out in the ombudsman's report. We have been building on those anyway for the past two years. As I said, he acknowledged that there has been much work done over the past two years with the Department, the NCSE, patrons and management bodies. There is also updated technical guidance for building projects and future-proofing, which I mentioned a few moments ago, for future accommodation in all new schools. The modular accommodation framework has also been in place since 2021. There is the expansion of existing planning exemptions for additional accommodation at existing school sites. Usually, if a school applies for additional accommodation under the scheme, it is requested to put in a special educational needs provision when it seeks that new project.

The strategic initiatives have helped to deliver permanent accommodation for 292 special classes and there is additional capacity for 122 classrooms in 22 special schools. That is during the period of the national development plan. There are 700 projects under that plan that would deliver 1,300 new special educational needs classrooms and 200 replacement classrooms for 7,800 pupils in primary and post-primary education. Almost 100 are currently on-site delivering classroom spaces for almost 1,000 additional special educational needs pupils. Taken together, that will enable approximately 50% new and additional or modernised accommodation in special schools.

A total of 60% of post-primary schools either have an existing special class or there is a project in the school at present. I am satisfied, in so far as I can be, with the forward planing. It is vastly different to what was there before. It will make a significant difference. A question was asked about training for teachers, particularly for newly qualified teachers. There is a lot of work being done in the national induction programme for teachers. A range of induction workshops specifically for newly qualified teachers is offered.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I meant the teacher training courses themselves.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a mandatory inclusion module that all teachers do before they are qualified to teach. The NCSE has said that only experienced teachers should teach in special classes and special schools for obvious reasons. There are many postgraduate training programmes, including diploma programmes and graduate certificates as well as professional development supports and teaching professional learning. There is significant investment going into training at present. When I first came into the role, which was newly created, one of the biggest issues I heard about from teachers and the larger school community was that training was really needed. Significant investment and efforts have gone in to making sure we have sufficient training in place. In Sligo we have 24 special classes and two special schools. In Leitrim we have 19 special classes at present.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about childcare practitioners?

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Bringing in childcare workers for the July provision is something we are already looking at. We are reaching out beyond the traditional education staff. We will engage with other Departments and agencies as part of the planning for 2023. We had an inspectorate report that informed our summer programme this year. We listened to the feedback from various stakeholders and we can build on it again for next year.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State and her officials for their presentation and for being with the committee today. I will endeavour to be brief where others have failed and see whether I can stick to the two-minute limit. My questions are closely related to those of Deputy Harkin. My first is about vision as distinct from forward planning. If we want to know the steps we need to take we need to know where we are going. It strikes me there is tension, even in the Minister of State's opening statement, between the wish we have to provide a fully inclusive society and providing specialist supports and settings where appropriate for the educational needs of the child. If we are sitting at just under 2,500 special classrooms at present where is it envisaged we need to get to with provision? Instances of autism are fairly predictable in terms of numbers per population. We have a good idea of the population that will attend our schools. Similarly with regard to special school placement, are we where we need to be? Where do we understand we will need to get to?

My next question is on continuing professional development arrangements. I am not sure they are sufficient, notwithstanding the position of the NCSE last week. For example, there is provision for substitute cover for up to 35 days for some diplomas. Stepping out of a special classroom and asking a substitute teacher to step in for seven weeks of the year is suboptimal. We need to plan ahead in terms of the provision of training for teachers. Very often we end up in a situation where teachers stay in special classrooms for a long period of time because they have become the most qualified teachers in the school setting and they find it difficult to step out of it either to access training or further training or to take a break in a mainstream setting.

I have failed miserably to stick to my two minutes despite my stated intention.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will try to answer the questions. The question the Deputy asked on vision is very important. Whatever about the work we are doing about the transit we need to know what the endpoint is. The Department has a core alignment with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and particularly Article 24. We have a triple-track approach with mainstream classes, special classes and special schools. The UN convention very much looks at a single-track approach. To give practical effect to this would take many years. There is absolutely a place for special schools, special classes and mainstream classes. We need to comply with the UN convention but it will take a long period of time to give effect to it and it will have to be in collaboration with all of the various stakeholders to achieve something like this.

With regard to prevalence rates, the then Minister for Health Deputy Harris commissioned a report in 2018 that found 1.5% of children have autism. The NCSE data on ASD indicates a prevalence rate of 1.55%. While it seems small in the scheme of things it is an important component of the education system. This figure is used for planning buildings. We do provide a little more space above and beyond this. The Deputy was effectively saying there is an exponential growth in autism, which there is, and it is something we need to be mindful of when making our calculations, particularly forward planning for school buildings and ensuring we have adequate capacity for these children. The calculation is based on children between the ages of four and 18 in State-funded schools. It is a best estimate of what we have at present.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I also asked about continuing professional development.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have outlined the various continuing professional development options available through the Department of Education, the NCSE, the professional development service for teachers and teacher professional learning. There are also bespoke in-school supports and the national induction programme. If the Deputy has additional suggestions he can give them to me after the meeting.

Schools need to contact the NCSE when they have students who require supports. On some occasions children in a mainstream class were being put into a special class but the NCSE was not informed. The NCSE was then under the impression there was more capacity than there actually was. It is important that not only parents contact the NCSE but that schools do so. There is also the Department school leadership group that is looking at leadership training on inclusivity.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had better keep within the time limit after reminding everybody else to do so. I fully welcome the legislation passed this week. It is extremely important and will benefit thousands of children throughout the country. We will see children being educated in their own communities with their siblings. This is extremely important. I know the Minister of State is passionate about special education and that she is making very positive moves for families throughout the country. I fully support the school inclusion model. We have spoken about it on a number of occasions in recent years. I would like to see it expanded even faster. Deputy Flaherty mentioned issues in our county where there is a severe lack of services. If the Minister of State is looking at expanding the model I ask her to consider a model in our county where there are 36 primary schools.

That would be an ideal area to expand, especially given that it is lacking in services due to the lack of occupational therapy and speech and language therapy staff.

The summer provision has been highlighted by a number of members. We have it on our programme for discussion in the autumn. That might be a good opportunity for the Minister of State to come back in to discuss the provision. There is a major issue with the lack of schools engaging, the lack of special schools with a programme and the lack of in-school provision. Parents send me Facebook pages advertising people who are available to do the homeschool-based provision and looking for four or five families to come together for it. The children for whom we set up the July provision a number of years ago are not getting it now. Summer is a long period of time. I agree with Deputy Harkin about the possibility of using ECCE staff. They are qualified, some with a master's in education, but are not eligible to take part in it. I would love to see all schools running July provision. We could have ECCE staff coming in who are fully qualified. We could have speech and language and occupational therapy students from the colleges working in schools during the summer for work experience. If not every school, we could look at bringing two or three schools together. Senator Wall spoke to me about this issue as well. In a town in Kildare, four schools came together and agreed that at least one of them would have a full four-week provision. All the teachers from the four schools worked in the one school to make sure the kids in the area were covered. That is something that needs to happen. I thank the Minister of State for her commitment and passion for special education.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chair for his comments. Around the summer provision, there has been a 64% increase in special schools and classes availing of it between 2019 and 2021. It has increased over the last three years. However, I accept what the Chair is saying. We want to increase that into the future. I would like every school to provide summer provision where they can. There were 377 special schools with special classes providing it over the last two years, which is around 5,587 children. To put that in context, there were only about 149 schools in 2011 with about 2,500 children. It helps children build their confidence, increases their well-being and provides motivation to them. We want to see more schools providing it into the future. I will be working very closely with the Department to make sure we get the feedback from this year. We can come back to the committee if it wishes and speak about that.

The special schools get an extra €2,000 in grant funding to try to incentivise them. There is an extra week's pay there as well. I have heard what the Chair and Deputy Harkin said about using other staff outside the education staff. That is worth considering. The National Association of Boards of Management in Special Education, NABMSE, and the Department inspectorate provided a presentation on the supports and the benefits to children on the summer provision to try to encourage other schools to avail of it. We will be doing as much as we possibly can, on top of what we are already doing. Some of the steps we took included the provision of paid overseeing and preparation time for schools. We have reduced the administrative burden for schools, as I said earlier. We have tried to provide greater flexibility in the timing of the programme and guidance to schools to design and deliver the programme so we can have as much uptake as possible. It is a long summer and it can be very difficult for families. The children get so much out of it. They also get a report for September on what they have done. They can learn a lot through fun-based activities, whether that is in music, drama or art. It is something we are trying to promote as much as we possibly can.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State and her officials for coming in today. The discussion has been very beneficial and informative for the committee. We will now suspend for a few minutes. When we resume we will be meeting with representatives from the teaching unions, the INTO and the ASTI.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good afternoon. For the information of the witnesses, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses with regard to reference they may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or witnesses who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I welcome our next witnesses on behalf of the committee. From the Irish National Teachers Organisation, we are joined by Ms Máirín Ní Chéileachair, assistant general secretary and head of education and research, and Mr. David O'Sullivan, assistant general secretary of the legal, industrial relations and equality section. From the Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland, we are joined by Ms Moira Leydon, assistant general secretary, education and research, and Ms Miriam Duggan, vice-president of ASTI.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish their opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite Ms Ní Chéileachair of the INTO to make her opening statement.

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

Tá an-áthas orainn a bheith anseo inniu. Gabhaimid buíochas leis an gcoiste as an gcuireadh teacht agus labhairt ina láthair. The INTO is the oldest and largest teachers’ trade union in Ireland, representing almost 50,000 teachers at primary level in the Republic of Ireland and primary and post-primary level in Northern Ireland. We welcome the opportunity to address the committee. We would like to focus on access to assessment and early intervention, issues with assessment of need and some current challenges being experienced in the education system. We would also like to look briefly at the need for autism-friendly school buildings.

I know the Minister spoke to the committee this morning. She probably bamboozled members with the same statistics that I will. There are currently 3,329 primary schools on the Department of Education’s database. In the 2022-23 school year, there will be 1,548 autism classes and early intervention classes across all primary schools. This is an increase of 674 classes since 2018. The number of autism classes has almost doubled from 743 to 1,404 over that period. It shows that schools are committed to providing inclusive education for all pupils. These statistics speak for themselves.

As inclusive education has evolved in recent years, autism spectrum disorder, ASD, and special classes have become an integral and essential part of the Irish education system. It is important that the State continues to offer a range of provision to ensure that children obtain the best possible education in a setting that suits their needs. The INTO believes that all schools are inclusive schools, including special schools and schools with ASD and special classes. Inclusive education does not necessarily mean that all pupils must be enrolled in mainstream classes. The INTO believes that a range of options across a continuum of provision must continue to be available to parents.

In making this submission, we emphasise that the INTO has long advocated the need for improvements to educational provision for students with ASD. In 2014, we called for increased emphasis on early intervention, targeted professional development relating to ASD and improvements regarding the transfer of information process. I know the Minister referred to transitions this morning.

The INTO is fully supportive of the policy of inclusion, where it is in the best interests of the child and where resources are provided to meet the needs of the child. We must always be mindful of the potential effect of having a child who is either misplaced in a mainstream setting or for whom the back-up support services are not being provided by the State. The maintenance of a continuum of provision to include ASD and special classes is essential to ensure that the educational needs of all children are met.

An inclusive approach to education that is not fully supported through the provision of resources, support and therapeutic services, as well as professional development, places an intolerable burden on families and on school communities. Pupils who access ASD classes and early intervention ASD classes have unique additional needs that require specific therapeutic support that is often beyond the remit of a teacher. Due to a lack of therapists, teachers are being asked to take on duties that other professionals, such as speech and language therapists or occupational therapists, would normally carry out. While we welcome the commitment by the Government to continue to pilot a model of in-school speech and language therapy, we further recommend that other therapies, such as mental health supports, should be available to children on-site at schools. It is imperative that the Department of Education and its counterparts in the Departments of Health and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth devise a model to enable children attending school to be provided with the therapeutic services which they require, preferably in an in-school, on-site arrangement.

Collaborative multidisciplinary assessments should be readily available in a pre-school setting to facilitate early intervention. Timely access to therapeutic supports and other services is essential if early years settings and early intervention ASD classes are to provide targeted interventions at an early stage in the child's education.

Schools should be better supported in the transition of children with special educational needs from pre-school to primary and from primary to post-primary level. Protocols should be agreed about the transfer of information and continuity of support to ensure that there is no gap in the provision of resources.

While it is regrettable that the increase in special classes at primary is not currently matched by corresponding increases of special class provision at second level, we realise that there are improvements in the pipeline. This creates significant difficulties for pupils transferring from primary to post primary, particularly those who require a continuity of experience and support.

On assessment of need, AON, we all know the Disability Act 2005 provides for the assessment of health and educational needs of persons with disabilities as occasioned by those disabilities. All children and young people born on or after 1 June 2002 are eligible to apply for an assessment of need under the Act, regardless of their age at the time of application. As a union, we are painfully aware that the HSE is currently unable to provide assessments as envisioned in the Act. Children all over the country are currently awaiting a full assessment to determine whether they have a disability as defined by the Act, the diagnosis of which could lead to more targeted interventions and supports being provided in schools and early years settings.

Following a recent legal judgment in 2021, the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, now has the responsibility to nominate an appropriate person to carry out an assessment of education needs for children on behalf of the HSE under the AON process. This assessment of education needs will be informed by existing school-based information, which provides details of a student’s education needs as identified by the school. Schools will need to be supported by the NCSE and the Department of Education in providing the information necessary. The INTO is calling for substituted release time for school personnel who are responsible for the compilation of these reports to be provided, given this is such an important element of the process. We are also calling for the State to do all in its power to ensure that there are sufficient personnel in all HSE areas to carry out an effective assessment of needs under the 2005 Act.

The expectation gap between schools and the HSE needs to be closed and a clear policy developed in relation to the provision of services for children.

I will focus on some challenges. While we would welcome the publication of the Guidelines for Setting Up and Organising Special Classes 2016 for boards of management and principals of schools, we advocate for better planning across the system for the establishment of special classes for children with autism spectrum disorder, ASD, to ensure all pupils have access, irrespective of demographics or geographical location. The union notes the engagement in schools to date as evidenced by the exceptional increase in provision since 2018.

The INTO would also at this point like to condemn the recent naming of four Dublin schools by the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and once again calls on the Minister of State to apologise to the schools in question.

We also welcome the recent publication by the Psychological Society of Ireland of the Professional Practice Guidelines for the Assessment, Formulation, and Diagnosis of Autism in Children and Adolescents, which could prove invaluable to psychologists.

We note with positivity the proposals of the NCSE’s Policy Advice on the Education of Students with Autism Spectrum Disorder proposing that professional development opportunities should be made available for principal teachers, particularly in relation to setting up and managing special classes. However, we believe that induction and ongoing professional development are vital for all teachers working in special education settings. In this regard, we welcome the NCSE recommendation that special class teachers should be supported to engage in appropriate learning opportunities to ensure they have the knowledge, skills and competencies necessary for that role. However, teachers would value more opportunities for professional development in the form of summer courses to ensure they are prepared in advance of their placement in special classes in September, rather than subsequent to their placement. Furthermore, teachers should also have the opportunity to visit other special classes first-hand to see how these classes operate. Again, substitute cover and time must be in place for these visits and liaisons with other schools to be accommodated. Ongoing professional development must be provided to ensure that teachers engage in current and best practice at all times.

We are aware of and support the public calls for public buildings to be more autism-friendly. However, the provision of ASD classes in primary schools is not as simple as identifying a space and providing adequate furniture. ASD classrooms need to be correctly designed as suitable learning environments for children with ASD, particularly those with associated sensory difficulties. Outside the ASD classroom, schools need to be reconfigured with indoor and outdoor sensory spaces and learning environments. Issues such as lighting, noise management and even the colour schemes need to be addressed throughout buildings to ensure and facilitate inclusion. Outdoor areas such as pathways, walkways and play areas also need to be designed to meet the needs of all pupils. All ASD classrooms and the schools providing them need to be fully and properly resourced.

In conclusion, teachers are to the fore in making inclusion a reality in mainstream schools and ASD and special classes. The Department of Education and the NCSE need to acknowledge and address their needs and experience, including their health and safety needs and their professional development needs. For a policy of inclusion to be successful, teachers in ASD and special classes must be supported with professional development opportunities, access to multidisciplinary services and adequate resources and facilities. The INTO is engaged in ongoing consultation with teachers and principal teachers to ascertain their views on the provision of ASD and special classes and we explored this issue in depth at our biennial special education conference in March 2019.

We strongly believe that ASD and special classes can and must continue to provide an essential part of the continuum of provision for children with special educational needs and look forward to engaging in more detailed discussion on the issue.

Gura míle maith agaibh as ucht éisteacht liom.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Ní Chéileachair. I would now like to invite Ms Moira Leydon of the Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland, ASTI, to make her opening statement, for which she has ten minutes. I might ask that Deputy Flaherty take the Chair for a couple of minutes because I just have to step out.

Ms Moira Leydon:

Go raibh maith agat agus tá mé an-bhuíoch as an ócáid agus an seans bheith anseo. I might just start off with a correction to the record. My good colleague here to my right is Ms Miriam Duggan, our president-elect of the ASTI, rather than vice president, and she will assume office at the end of August. It is a minor point, but it is important to have it correct on the record.

I commend, as usual, my colleagues in the INTO for their excellent, in-depth analysis. I have ten minutes allocated to me. We made a written submission that contains many very similar points, which I think speaks to the unanimity of analysis and recommendations that exists among the practitioners at both management and teacher level around how we move forward with making sure we have inclusive schools, buildings, etc. for students with autism. I will just make about three points that are more reflective of where we are right now, and perhaps we need to reflect on the pressing issues right now.

First, I will perhaps just set the scene. As someone who was around in 2003, 2004 and 2005, when finally the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004 passed the Oireachtas and as someone who is very familiar with and has a background in special needs, particularly at the policy level, I really think that moment was absolutely critical. We are at a similar juncture now in terms of how our society responds to students with autism and, indeed, students within the wider special educational needs community. The latter is consistently rated as 25% prevalence within student cohort throughout most of, one could say, the developed world. Some 25% of all students are deemed to have special educational needs. The statistic for autistic children in the primary and second level cohort is 1.5%, which represents 14,000 students in the system in any given year. Therefore, we are talking about very large numbers of pupils.

We are also talking about a condition, which by its very nature, is absolutely heterogenous. Every student with autism is a different student to the next student with a diagnosis, which makes policy particularly challenging. It has to be very flexible and be very much based on evidence, ongoing analysis, evaluation and moving forward. The whole point, of course, about education and support is that the children who become the young adults are then able to live lives that are meaningful and independent and they are capable of contributing to society, including earning a living.

I think we are at a step change. Obviously, the ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2018 was the major step. The invitation to today’s meeting included links to the two debates in Dáil Éireann from April 2019 and April 2021 and I read them in detail.

I was impressed by the language around students with special educational needs and people with autism having changed, profoundly, which gives us all hope that we can meet this challenge. The challenge is not insurmountable and it is not all about resources either. That is a considerable dimension of the problem, but it is not the only one. What came out in the latter debate in 2021 was that we want to be the accepting society. That is a good model for society to want to aspire to, in that we accept difference and diversity. That is the setting.

One of the issues of the day is the rightful anger and indignation about the fact that there are at least 270 children with autism who do not have a school place for September. That is outrageous. We also have the phenomenon of 15,500 children travelling outside their locality every day to attend specialist educational settings. A further 1,455 students are in receipt of home tuition, as a result of lack of specialised placements. Those statistics, incidentally, are from the recently-published report by the Office of the Ombudsman for Children. That report is critical because its focus is on places. It diagnoses the problem of lack of places as a lack of central planning, effectively, whereby demand cannot keep up with supply.

There are a number of dimensions to this. One is that the Department of Education has said that in the Irish education system, at both legal and cultural level, we have parents' choice. Parents have a choice about where to place their children. If there is a local service, but the parent prefers to have their child in a specialist location elsewhere, the parent's choice is predominant. Of course, that contributes to challenges, but it could be a cop-out clause. The biggest problem that the ASTI sees is that we simply do not plan sufficiently well in advance. With the guarantee of early childhood places, in particular, we have much more data about growing up in Ireland, the children coming through and the early childhood care and education, ECCE, sector. We have much more data than we have ever had before to be able to plan ahead. Unfortunately, that is not happening. I will not sit here and belabour and besmirch the good people in the Department of Education. The ombudsman's report has said everything. Central planning is failing to catch up with the need that is out there.

I will also pick up on a point that my colleagues at the INTO and others have made. We are very concerned about what I would describe as an emerging narrative that schools are reluctant to enrol special educational needs, SEN, students and that the problem lies at school level. I need hardly point out that the schools are highly-regulated institutions, which are regulated by law, policy, normative culture and professional ethics. We are operating in an environment in which a school that makes an admission decision on the basis that it does not have the capacity to enrol a child with particular needs, does so in full compliance with the regulatory environment in which it operates. However, it seems that sometimes, we blame schools for deficiencies at central level.

As a trade unionist and a part of the wider trade union community, the narrative of putting the blame on individual schools absolutely deflects from the wider contextual issues, whereby social infrastructure is not keeping up with a developer-led, market-based model of housing provision. New towns and suburbs and the beginning of cities are emerging and we simply do not have the schools, green places or primary care and public transport facilities. We really need to get the narrative right. This is not a case of individual schools making discriminatory decisions. It is a case of a social infrastructure not keeping pace with human need and demand, where we have a lot of evidence of such, because of the way we regulate and how we house and place people. I will not labour that point. I have made it very clear.

Trade unions are in the middle of pay talks. One of the biggest themes in those talks is the concept of the social wage and contract. What do we want from our society? One of the things we want from our society is respect. We wish for children to go to local schools and be with their buddies. We do not wish to spend hours in the car every day to get them there and back. When they leave school, they should be able to go to their friend's house for a birthday party. Unfortunately, the reality is that for thousands of autistic children and other children with high-level special needs, that is not part of their lives. We very much need to get back to basics and stop blaming schools for decisions over which they have no control.

The other issue which is utterly to the forefront for the ASTI, at present, is that of access to assessment and intervention. I carefully read the Dáil debate. The definition, which I like because it is simple and coherent, is that, "autism is a 'spectrum' condition that affects the typical development of the brain in areas such as social interaction, communication and sensory processing". The two characteristics of autism are its variety and its being lifelong. This very much places an absolute premium on making sure that we get assessment and intervention done at the earliest opportunity.

If a child has a lifelong condition which changes and varies over time and with intervention and the child does not get intervention until the age of six, when the period of up to three years old is when the brain is expanding exponentially, we have lost a considerable development stage in that child's life. I can very much see why the Office of the Ombudsman for Children is really harping on about this point. If we do not get assessment and intervention right, we will not make it. I will not quote the statistics about which the ombudsman's report was quoted with regard to time delays and the numbers on waiting lists.

We have all learned one thing, on which the politicians have given considerable leadership, in that when we had the pandemic, we pulled together. When we have the pandemic we pulled together. We made decisions overnight. We had money to make schools safe and to keep people's income alive and keep our businesses from going bankrupt. We have seen the same alacrity and capacity to make quick decisions on the Ukrainian refugee crisis. I cannot see why we do not have that capacity to respond to the current challenges, especially with autistic children, which is the business of today. Trade unions are very much in the business of finding solutions. We have capacity, past form and precedent. We can do this, but we really need to be clear about what needs to be done and get the investment rolling.

I will move on to building on what we call a strength and I will make a few recommendations to the members, who are the decision-makers. Sometimes we forget that only 2% of our special educational needs students are educated in specialist facilities. We have one of the highest rates in the world of students with special educational needs educated in mainstream schools. We know that, frequently, might mean they are in segregated classrooms on the same campus. That is where we are starting from. We need to go forward, but only having 2% outside of mainstream school is a considerable advantage.

One of the most devastating things I read about the displacement of young people in Ukraine was the fact that children with Down's syndrome and developmental disorders, and even dyslexia, are placed in institutions far away from homes and cities. I saw scenes of panic, chaos and mayhem and thought "oh, my goodness". We really forget how good Ireland is, when it comes to getting a little bit along the road, and then we seem to stall and do not get any further. Only 2% of our students are educated in separate facilities.

We were around this table talking about the framework for junior cycle many times. It was introduced in 2015. We have a differentiated curriculum of levels one and two and then we have junior cycle for students with a very high level of needs or a low level of needs. The reform of the senior cycle is prioritising the development of follow-on programmes. The inspectorate has a dedicated model of evaluation of provision, which commenced after 2017. It is already generating significant evidence about how well schools are doing in terms of meeting needs. What are the gaps in provision and what do we need to do?

The chief inspector's report, indeed, published earlier this year for 2016 to 2020 was broadly positive about provision and outcomes for students and, what is very critical now about the inspectorate focus is outcomes. Are these students learning? Are they thriving? Are they meeting the educational and developmental goals? We are beginning to learn a lot about what happens in the inclusive school. That is very important.

However, and I would not be sitting here representing the ASTI unless we had a however piece, we do not have training. When a new model of allocation of teachers to schools was introduced in 2017, the practice of withdrawing the child to the resource room to be taught by the specialist teacher was meant to end and the specialist teacher was meant to come into the mainstream classroom and co-teach along with the subject teacher. That was the ambition. It has not happened to the extent it was desired or envisaged. The reason is the training. There was no national training programme required. The entire area of planning for students with SEN is a complete fudge. Who will do it, who will follow it up, who will stand over it, who will record it and so forth was never worked out. There is also the area of qualifications and access to CPD, which the INTO has thoroughly gone into, and the time for planning. The biggest resource teachers have is time. That is their first resource. The second biggest resource is the time to do all the incredible work that they do.

In 2019, we did a survey on inclusive schools. I have brought it with me and I will leave it with the committee. It is very interesting, and I will finish on this note. It was done in Easter 2019, which was just before Covid-19. It gives some very good statistics on what is happening at second level. One of the areas I ask the committee to examine, and I am sure it has or will, is the fallout from Covid-19 and the impact on students with SEN, especially autistic children. I am sure some of the members had the experience of listening to the Joe Duffy radio show one week - I forget which year it was but possibly in 2020 - when families talked about regression in their children's lives and their families' lives and the chaos that was happening in homes because these children had no access to their daily education and daily routine. There is the issue of places and the issue of early and timely assessment and intervention. The third priority must be how to make up for that. For mainstream students we call it the learning gap, but we are talking about developmental black spaces for autistic students with very high needs. We need to put as much resources as possible into ensuring these children get to lead the lives they all deserve.

I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, that I got carried away on a few points. I like to think the two unions have complemented each other regarding the elements on the ground and then the wider contextual issues. Please do not blame schools. They did not make the decisions about the resources they get. We need to look at the wider picture.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next speaker is Deputy Carroll MacNeill.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious that I had to step out to attend another committee meeting, so I am happy to let somebody else speak now.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Senator Ardagh.

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have never agreed so much with trade unionists. My grandfather was president of the INTO in the 1950s and when one goes into the building on Parnell Square one can see his name on the board, Fionnain Breathnach. He was of a different political persuasion, but was a very interesting man.

As Ms Leydon said, the unions complement each other and everyone in this room will fully support what they are saying. They both articulated well points that we have tried to make. I thank all the unions' members and teachers for teaching our children and going that little bit further for them, especially when they have additional needs. Obviously, education is the cornerstone of our country. I am a member of Fianna Fáil and education is our number one priority. We do it really well, and that is one of the reasons I am still a member of Fianna Fáil. We always put the money into education. We introduced the free second level education and extended it to third level. We are now at another juncture and we have to make that extra leap and go that bit further for children with additional needs.

It relates a lot to the issue of childcare and figuring out what we do in that regard because it is important to capture these children at a very early age. The assessment piece is an important part of that. As a committee, we have much work to do. The Chairman is passionate about it and we hope we will be able to feed into many of the issues the witnesses have raised today, and have a vision for our children for the future and support the teachers. The teachers I have met are passionate about it. They want to help, they want the resources and, as they say, they have the time. We are entrusting them with our children every day. We need to support that.

I thank the witnesses. I did not go into the detail of all the statistics but I will print the speeches again. It was great to listen to both contributors and I thank them.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Carroll MacNeill.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I read both of the submissions and I am sorry I did not get to hear the witnesses. My apologies for that. I have one question and one observation. On the observation, I have been working closely with schools, teachers and parents across my constituency and I see a very mixed picture. From some parents I hear about a teacher or principal being absolutely wonderful and that the atmosphere the teacher or principal brings within the school is transformative in the delivery of education plans, the experience of the child, the communication between the parent and teacher and how it all works. Then I hear about a different experience in other schools, where it is hard to get the plan done, it is hard to make any criticisms and it is hard to raise problems. Parents ask me if there is a way of doing this through the board of management so they do not have to go through the principal because they feel the principal is not working with them on that occasion or perhaps is not as interested. I have also worked with schools in my area that have identified a premises and proactively chased the Department to make sure to get it as well as others who have very much wanted to do that and are already doing massively inclusive work, but maybe have not had the time or capacity to help to get its board of management to find the extra premises or whatever.

I see a very collaborative sector with parents and politicians across the board and I see people with very different challenges across my constituency. However, I do not believe at any stage that anybody is immune from criticism. I do not believe that the witnesses are immune from criticism, that I am immune from criticism, that the Minister is immune from criticism or that any other sector is immune from criticism. I struggle with that and how there are genuinely mixed experiences when I see how much collaborative work is being done. I struggle with that in both of the submissions. Perhaps this is not what the witnesses are saying, but I struggle with this idea that nobody can be criticised at any point. I am sure that is not what they are saying, of course. It must not be. However, we have a challenge with making sure that all children get access. Certainly, I have tried to work proactively on the ground with schools in my constituency to make sure the Department is delivering extra funding and making sure the painting is done on time and all the different things are done to deliver extra classes because that is what we want. There is a question around that. I am sure that is not what the witnesses are saying, or maybe it is. They can tell me.

Second, what is the union view on what more needs to happen with regard to July provision and making sure that people are available to deliver the July provision that is necessary so students, particularly at the more acute end of the spectrum, are not faced with the scale of disruption and regression that is happening year on year? What is the role for teachers in that?

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

I will take the question on July provision first. July provision has expanded amazingly in the last three years with the advent of Covid-19. The DEIS summer camps are available not only to DEIS band 1 schools but to all DEIS schools. The summer provision is available to all schools and not just those with special units in them. There would have been a tradition in certain schools of July provision where there was a special class or the children required it. It is a new thing for schools. One of the major issues we have found at trade union level is the payment of teachers for July provision. People are working this week and in our experience they will not see money until December. The prompt payment of teachers is a huge issue for it. There is a solution and we are hoping that this year the online claim system will be used effectively and far more efficiently than it was used last year for the payment of teachers.

It can be difficult in schools where there is no tradition of summer provision to establish that tradition. Schools are working very hard to do this. There have been some very creative solutions found this year, such as the registration of student teachers in the Teaching Council with student membership and the engagement with colleges of education to make sure newly qualified teachers realise they are eligible to teach on the summer provision courses.

Schools which have not traditionally provided it have started on that journey. It is well established in some schools but we have more than tripled provision in two years. To say that teachers are not engaging with it-----

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not say that.

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

They are doing it. It is an ask for people to work during what would normally be their holiday period. It must be made attractive to them and they must see the value of it. We need to engage with special education and with schools to quantify the benefits of it. I think there needs to be some research done on that.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps that is something for the public sector pay talks, a different model that brings people further into July.

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

I could not possibly comment. Does Mr. O'Sullivan want to come in on that? He is conditions of employment rather than legal industrial relations, so this is his baby.

Mr. David O'Sullivan:

We have been raising this issue with the payroll section. The payroll technical group has been set up in terms of the timely payment of teachers for the July provision programme. Members are probably finding in their constituencies and areas that schools are inclusive. As one drives past, one sees the level of inclusion and the commitment of teachers and principal teachers working throughout July to ensure pupils with special educational needs are provided with a service during the summer months.

On the Deputy's comment on engagement with principals and school leaders, education works when we are all working in partnership. We have been calling for some time for the parent and student charter Bill. It was at various stages and iterations in the Houses of the Oireachtas. We have made submissions in relation to that in terms of a community charter. We are not sure where it is at but would welcome if the Houses of the Oireachtas would look at that legislation in time to provide those engagements at school level. They are happening all the time. We advise and assist school leaders. As issues arise, the best approach is to engage with the principal of the school. There is a staged approach to engagement on particular issues. I do not say everything will always be right and perfect but there is a structure in place. We hope the parent and student charter or community charter Bill is enacted at some point.

Ms Miriam Duggan:

The Deputy spoke about schools and being self-critical about how we produce things for our students. We all need to be that way, I entirely agree, but the central point is about time, resource and training. That is hugely important. The Deputy talked about following up and chasing things. That is the experience. How much better it would be if the proper resources were in place and we could spend the time constructively.

Time is the biggest issue. Anybody who has been teaching will say it is very intensive. You hit the ground running at the end of August and keep going for the year. On planning for students with special educational needs, 65% of respondents to our 2019 survey, Achieving Inclusive Schools, said time and workload were huge issues; 67% of that 65% said that was a barrier to achieving. That is hugely important. We all want the same thing, which is that our students go through school not just surviving but thriving and flourishing. That will not happen if policy is made without concentration on resources, training and the time people will need to follow them through.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their in-depth presentations. There is not much I would disagree with in them. I still think there is resistance from some schools, both primary and post-primary, to open special classes or classes for autistic children. I was a teacher in post-primary and was the SEN co-ordinator for a number of years. There were a number of other second level schools in the area and I knew of parents whose child wanted to go to one of the other schools but was actively encouraged to go to the school I was teaching in because the SEN supports were better. That was unfair. We valued every child who came to us, put the resources into meeting their needs and got a good reputation for dealing with special needs, but every school has a responsibility. The admission to school Act in 2018 improved things but every school needs to step up to the mark and include all students who want to attend. Ms Ní Chéileachair mentioned the importance of the transition from primary to post-primary. Is it now mandatory to provide a report from primary to post-primary or is it still optional?

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

The passport is the relevant piece. I think providing a report probably is not enough. I was a primary school principal for 20 years. We had a great SEN department who made visits to the school, brought the SEN children with them, familiarised them with the post-primary school building and got them to meet their teachers, year heads, class tutors etc. We had a very good relationship with our local post-primary school. Some of the children went out of the area to other post-primary schools with which we did not have a relationship so it was harder to establish good practices.

Transition is not just a report. It is a more complex ongoing process that needs to start early in the year to build up a child's expectations of what is happening and engage with parents. Both schools on either side of the transition need to engage. We are doing interesting research with Early Childhood Ireland on transitions from the early years sector to post-primary, especially in the light of two years of more formal education under the ECCE scheme, and to see if a different type of reporting or transition is needed. That is a much more complex process that needs to be looked at. Each child will need a different support. We all know the children who wave goodbye at the school gate and never want to see you again, but others need support. Much of the transition process should start as early as September for some children; definitely by the middle of term 2 that process should be engaged with by both schools on either side of the transition.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those reports were good as an indicator to the child coming into the school. I used to do outreach with the schools the children came in from. There was a good relationship there. However, it is not done by all schools and that needs to be improved big time.

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

While the school may fill in its part of the passport, sometimes the parent or child may not. We must encourage all parties to the transition to engage with the formal piece, but also the informal. We all know small changes can make huge differences. This does not have to be rocket science. Small changes in practice can make a huge difference in a child's life.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Resource teachers are still not being valued and in some cases are being withdrawn from their duties to substitute in a mainstream class. That is still happening depending on the school, but it should not happen at all. I brought up with the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, that non-SEN teachers are being put into autism classes, for example, are being told to teach there for a couple years and then they will be given a full-time position. It is happening in some cases. I know it is not all but it should not happen at all. It is not fair on the children or the teacher. That teacher will move on but autistic children need continuity and for the teacher to know them. SEN training should be built into all teacher-training models if we are to have an inclusive education as we are supposed to have. I have come across teachers who had no interest in or knowledge of SEN. They did not want to know and would not even look at the SEN register in the school to identify students in the class with needs to be met. For that to be built into it, as well as CPD, would be important.

Ms Moira Leydon:

It is important that we be open with each other. Deputies Tully and Carroll MacNeill raised the issue of the mixed response at school level to special needs. No school can discriminate in terms of admissions but we all know the concept of soft barriers. There are soft barriers there. How do we change it? I referenced the concepts of accepting societies and inclusive schools. These are goals and processes. How do we get there?

It is important that we talk about the fact that they exist for starters. We cannot gloss over it. Our job as trade unions is to represent our members and defend their working conditions. We can also play a role as honest brokers and discuss what goes on at system level. In terms of soft barriers whereby a school prioritises academic achievement and the transition to third level as being more important than an emphasis on inclusion and culture, the system has tools to address this. The tools are working. I see them as a carrot and stick approach. The stick is an cigire or the inspector. The inspectorate has 16 models of inspection within the formal school system, not to mention the youth detention centres and special schools. One of those models, as I said earlier, is a dedicated inspection of special educational needs, which is focused on outcomes and use of resources. It assesses whether the additional teachers allocated to the school to teach and work with students with special needs, are actually teaching honours maths as distinct from co-teaching. The inspectorate reports identify these practices and schools are required to change them because the inspectorate performs follow-up visits. After giving schools recommendations, inspectors come back to see what is happening. There are quality assurance mechanisms in the system to address the soft barriers.

We also have a model of internal quality assurance in the school system called school self-evaluation. We are all familiar with the concept of school planning. It is a dual process. Schools now have a three-year plan - prior to Covid it was typically a two-year plan - which is based on a self-evaluation. Schools gather evidence, look at different types of students and how they meet their ambitions and departmental requirements etc. This is ongoing all the time. Again, we sound like a broken record. What do teachers say about this process? They ask when they are going to get the time to do it. They are doing it at lunchtime or during breaks. We have a very 19th-century view of teachers as people just being in front of a classroom. The role of the teacher in the 21st century is a wide professional role based on classroom teaching but with multiple non-classroom teaching duties. Until we start to factor in those non-classroom teaching duties into the working day, we will not achieve the kinds of outcomes and educational policies that we want. We make no excuses as teacher unions in saying teachers need time, because they do not have time. Teachers go into school for 9 a.m. and they are still there at 3.50 p.m. teaching students. Where do they get the time to do all the other tasks?

The Deputy is right to raise the issue of soft barriers. There are quality-assurance tools available to the system. There are also cultures that need to be addressed, which the member's Government colleague, the Minister, Deputy Harris, identified in his critique of the over-reliance on moving to third level education as distinct from looking at other post-school opportunities. We need to start broadening our horizons about what is a valid way to contribute to society in the 21st century. It is not all about going to college or apprenticeships. It is about autistic students who have extremely poor interaction skills and no friends. When they leave school, they can communicate and have friends. That is a huge achievement for a school and we need to start highlighting the value we attribute to that. Yes, we need to discuss and acknowledge that there are soft barriers. It would not be fair to pretend that everything in the garden is rosy.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We might try to shorten contributions so that everyone is given time to respond.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank both unions for coming in and giving excellent presentations. There is no doubt that the country is facing many challenges. One of the defining challenges of our time, for which a call to action is required, is the need to address the deficiencies in special education. I acknowledge that the change in the socio-economic landscape has fed into that in terms of additional challenges and providing infrastructural resources and all of that, which needs to be factored in.

One of the great successes we have had as a country has been the partnership model. No one better emphasises that better than the teachers. Teachers' unions and teachers have led the way on partnership. They have been community and school leaders. I was struck by what Ms Leydon said about the changing dynamic in moving from the perception of a 19th-century teacher. I spoke with a principal who has a large number of special needs classes in his school. One of the things that would assist him the most would be if he had a principal's assistant, which would be a new, non-teaching role. We have to take this on board if we expect our teachers to be at the front line of child welfare. Throughout the Covid pandemic, how many times did we ask teachers to be the front line? Local gardaí also relied on teachers during that period.

I greatly value the partnership model and what the unions and its members have done thus far. To emphasise this model, I was struck by what Ms Leydon said in that some traditional schools have not engaged in the summer programme. I also accept there were issues with payments, but I am hopeful that will be addressed this year. In the spirit of the partnership model, we have to get to a point where it is not acceptable for special schools not to deliver a summer programme. It was for those schools that the scheme was envisaged. Those parents are in greatest needs of the summer programme and are really struggling. If a special needs child misses out in that, the whole house is thrown into chaos. Union representatives have come here with their asks and we will take them on board, but they should bring the message back to special needs schools, in particular, that it is not acceptable for schools to continue the stance of not delivering the summer programme.

I come from Longford where we have a problem with the children's disability network team, CDNT, which I flagged with the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. The team is particularly understaffed and is at 50% capacity per capita. We have the longest waiting times in the country for diagnostic assessments. We have 37 young people who have been waiting 48 months or more for an initial assessment. In hard numbers, it amounts to six special needs classes that have not been filled because the assessments were not done.

The CDNTs should look after preschool initial assessments. We should consider giving the funding for therapies directly to schools and let them administer the funding and bring in the therapies. This is a broad question to throw at the union representatives today, but what are their thoughts on such an option whereby the schools are given the funding and power to bring in and manage those therapies?

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

We have a campaign in conjunction with the National Parents Council around mental health in schools. We are looking closely at a model in the UK where there are teams of educational mental-health professionals based in schools. They are not the teachers; they are other professionals. I have said that sometimes teachers are expected to be all things to all people. They are expected to be the occupational therapist, speech and language therapist, psychologist and counsellor. I am aware there is a national shortage of therapists, but we need to be recruiting them under all disciplines. I would love to see them based in schools. I know this is not Government policy and that the policy is for them to be based in the community. We know from international best-practice that when the therapies were based in school buildings and campuses, there is a far higher level of engagement and success rate because therapists can engage with teachers and complement what is going on in each other's practice.

The suggestion to give the funding to schools and let them manage it is a sweeping statement and I think of the beleaguered principal who would then have something else to manage. Administrative deputies were mentioned. There are very few of them at primary level. At one stage a few years ago there were 24. I think we still have fewer than 30, but there are definitely fewer than 50.

Release hours for deputy principals, which were given during Covid, were taken away by the Department again this year. It would be very valuable to have them, especially where schools have special needs classes or ASD classes. In many cases the deputy principal is the SEN co-ordinator in the school, and such provision would free that person to do vital administration.

We really need to consider the co-location of therapies. We have school buildings. We have campuses. We now have a policy of campus development which means that somebody who is co-located on a campus development could very easily serve four or five schools. Co-location is not Government policy but it has real value.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that to get to that point, a lot of building blocks are needed.

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

Yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Ní Chéileachair made an articulated pitch for it and I have taken all of what she said on board. Has there been engagement with the Department on providing therapies on-campus or is it early days?

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

Recently we held a lobbying day across the road in Buswells Hotel. I thank all of the Members who attended. We missed those who could not attend.

Part of our budget ask is the provision of mental health services for primary children in schools. This should be based on the model in the UK, which has shown incredible success after a very short number of years. A similar model in Limerick is being done almost on a goodwill basis. it has had huge success with in-school engagement. For a child at risk, and probably from an at-risk family, a one-stop shop cannot be underestimated.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next speaker is Deputy Joe McHugh. As he is not available, we will move on. The next speaker is Senator Róisín Garvey from the Green Party. She has indicated that Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh will avail of her position.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Chair, I must attend an event at 1.30 p.m. How come I am not next if people are not here? Will Deputy Ó Cathasaigh allow me to speak before him?

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I am prepared to allow that but Senator Garvey had indicated and it is a Green Party slot.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Carry on. It is just so unfair on the Independents.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Flynn, these are the slots. We agreed the matter in the last private session.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The list says "Róisín" and then I am after her, Chair. If she is not here then it should be me, not given back to her party.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Róisín Garvey indicated that Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh could take her position. If the Deputy is willing to let Senator Flynn in, that is okay with me.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am prepared to allow the Senator in.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. It is okay, Deputy. Carry on. It is fine.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as a gcur i láthair agus as ucht a bheith linn. Tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go gcloisimid ó na daoine atá ag cur an tsoláthair seo i láthair sna scoileanna.

I thank the delegations for attending. It is so important to hear from the people who are at the coalface of this matter. I have a number of questions for the witnesses. I will start with a clarification question for Ms Leydon regarding the facts and figures in the submission. According to the ASTI submission, "5% of mainstream teachers have a SEN qualification and 40% of SET teachers do not have an SEN qualification". Are those percentages specific to the post-primary sector, or do they apply to both primary and post-primary?

Ms Moira Leydon:

They are specific to post-primary level. Each year, in advance of our conference, the ASTI commissions Red C to do research. In 2019, it focused on the inclusive schools with exclusively post-primary teachers. This really is a huge challenge.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for cutting across but my time is limited.

Ms Moira Leydon:

These figures are specific to post-primary level. I can leave a copy of our submission with the clerk to the committee.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are the figures roughly the same for primary teachers?

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

I do not have the figures for primary but it would not surprise me if they were similar, especially as the postgraduate courses can only be accessed by people who are in these roles. We know that there is not enough provision. All providers try. We are providers and we try to provide as much as we can. The certificate courses are highly sought after but are not as accessible as they should be.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I want to pick up on the issue of continuing professional development. Before doing so I want to touch on the issue raised by Deputy Flaherty, which is provision schools. Reference has been made to a pilot scheme that provides speech and language therapy within schools. Recently I visited a school in Waterford City that has children from three xxxxx children's disability network team, CDNT, areas. That service could be provided within schools. I have the same opinion about school meals so an while the State has them then feed

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before I discuss CPD, I will refer to provision within schools, as mentioned by Deputy Flaherty. One of the witnesses mentioned a pilot scheme to provide speech and language therapy in schools. Recently I visited a school in Waterford city that has children from three children's disability network team, CDNT, areas. I believe the scheme could be provided within the school. I have the same opinion about school meals - when the State has children, it should feed them. When the State has children, it should provide supports. In the case of the school I visited, one of the CDNT areas provides support out of Dungarvan. When a child who attends a school in Waterford city centre seeks to access supports, he or she must travel more than 40 km to Dungarvan. It does not make a great deal of sense to me.

I wish to refer to the benefits of co-location, as already addressed. Co-location allows therapists to engage with teachers. There is huge learning to be had in terms of a time saving for parents and children, the children can access supports in an environment in which they are comfortable and teachers can get there as well.

On CPD, is enough support given to providing targeted professional development? Notwithstanding the fact that teachers are trained in special education when undergoing their initial teacher training, the completion of a five-day summer course is not sufficient to allow people to step into a special classroom. A whole range of difficulties arise in this context. Are there supports in place for teachers and substitution cover? I know of teachers who would like to do these courses but do not want to step out of the classroom for a period and bring in a substitute, particularly in these contexts and environments. Are there incentives? If somebody decides to undertake a graduate diploma, masters or PhD course, is there a career pathway? Do teachers receive an allowance for undergoing the very onerous task of CPD?

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

On the CPD piece, I think that a five-day summer course is not enough, but it is preferable to putting a teacher into the classroom on 1 September and taking him or her out three weeks later to engage in some kind of induction that could have been done in May or June when student teachers become available in order that there could be substitute cover, and the teacher could be released for the week before he or she starts the job. It is a question of the timing around that piece.

We need to look at postgraduate qualifications. They are completely funded in other countries. Hundreds of teachers across this country pay out of their own pockets to upskill themselves or do it in their own time because we do not have enough State-funded provision for them.

Mr. David O'Sullivan:

In advance of opening a special class, the NCSE provides a four-day introduction to autism seminar. That is all that is provided in advance to teachers. We would welcome further CPD in that area and a blended approach, as mentioned by my colleague, Ms Ní Chéileachair. Such an approach involves not only the professional development and academic side, but also entails an opportunity to see autism classes in action. In addition, learning from peers and colleagues would be very beneficial.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Because there is so much good practice.

Mr. David O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be hugely beneficial if we created the opportunity to share that good practice among professionals.

Ms Miriam Duggan:

On making time for CPD, 67% of the teachers we surveyed said that workload was a huge issue in terms of accessing CPD and having time. Similarly, time is a huge issue with planning.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Collins is available online.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not have any questions. I am listening intently to this debate although I have just come back in, for which I apologise.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for not being available when the Chairman invited me to speak before Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I welcome the delegations and apologise for missing part of the presentation.

Will the various organisations give their perspectives on the in-school demonstration model, which involved 75 schools? I apologise if this matter has been covered already, but I would be interested in hearing their perspectives and whether they have any insight to give on rolling out a model like that nationally. The feedback that we received from the NCSE last week was positive, but the litmus test is the practicality of rolling out a model like this nationally, which would involve not just the Department of Education, but also the Department of Health.

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

Early in this school year, the INTO met principals and teachers from the schools involved in the first phase of the demonstration project to discuss their experiences of it. Many of the schools attended. Many of them had only a short experience due to the onset of Covid, with some only having had access to therapists for six weeks or so before schools were closed. The experience was mixed. Some of the schools stated that they benefited from the CPD that was provided and the various programmes that were rolled out in the schools. The upskilling of teachers in the programmes was welcomed. Some of the schools indicated to us that they had continued the programmes during the Covid closure and had seen real benefits.

The schools were disappointed because, although they had believed that the therapists would engage in more therapy with individual children, this did not seem to be a feature of the demonstration project. There was a fear among teachers that, once they were upskilled to a certain level, they would more or less be left to carry on on their own. The nature of the project was of an advisory and CPD nature, but the therapies were not carried through.

We are aware that the programme restarted in November. We have not engaged with the schools, but those that have engaged with us have indicated that it is again difficult to source therapists, given the general shortage of therapists. The programme has proved challenging from that point of view. We hope to engage with them again in September to see what their experience between November and the end of the school year has been.

Ms Moira Leydon:

The programme ran in the primary school sector mainly, but some second level schools were also involved. Unfortunately, Covid put a spanner in the works. We need to see how the programme will progress. The principle of having a multidisciplinary team available to and-or within the school is the only way forward to meet needs. We all like to refer to the concept of best practice, and it is the practical way to go, but best practice internationally is to view the child in his or her entirety. To paraphrase the Ombudsman for Children, who has always made this point, the child is not just the learner. When the child goes home, he or she is not just the kid at play. When the child goes to the therapist, he or she is not just the person receiving speech and language therapy or whatever. The child is the whole child in the school setting. Therefore, the services must come to the child. This is the optimum model of service delivery, particularly for students – we are discussing a minority, lest the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform get the heebie-jeebies – with very significant needs and who require access to therapeutic services and so on.

We endorse the principle of the project. Covid hampered it, so we need to extend the timeframe. What would be demoralising for the system as a whole would be to do what we always seem to do in Ireland. We might have fantastic pilot projects, but good reports on them sit on shelves for ten years and, by the time there is the political will to implement some of their recommendations, the situation has changed. The five-year-old who needed all of that support has become the 15-year-old, who has not had the affirmative and life-changing experiences that he or she could have had. The project's principle is fine, but we need more evidence. We also need a commitment to a timeline for bringing it to the wider education system.

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Regarding access and the launch of the event around the budget, having mental health supports for our young people is crucial for all students. Look at the mental health crisis within the Traveller community and among very disadvantaged children. Mental health supports will benefit the young people coming through our education system.

Our language is important. Third level education is also important, but we focus on universities a lot and this is about meeting the child where the child is. Last week, I made a comment about not having segregated schools. We need schools that meet the needs of young children with special educational needs, some of which are severe. People need to be met where they are. Like the INTO's representatives, I have not spoken to one person who agrees with the call for five special schools to be put in place through an emergency measure. This follows on from one of the points I made last week. All week, there has been a blame game, with the Department blaming the schools and teachers. At the end of the day, this is just a way of kicking the can down the road instead of trying to create places for more than 270 students with special educational needs who do not have places currently.

Someone touched on the issue of children travelling outside their localities. What number of children have to travel more than 10 km, or even up to 30 km, outside their areas?

Do the unions have a good relationship with disability organisations? Do they consult or work with them much?

We could sit here for another three of these meetings and talk about the issues within the education system. We are all individuals even though we are in roles. I know of teachers who can give Traveller children ill treatment by putting them at the back of the room with the colouring pages. That is not the unions' fault – that is the fault of individuals.

We talk about special needs teachers. I am on the campaign to treat our SNAs with respect. SNAs have a major role to play in the education of children with additional needs. Do the witnesses want to touch on the role of SNAs going forward?

What consultation do the unions have with disability organisations? If they had a magic wand to put something in place right now, what do the unions think would be ideal for teachers?

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

The INTO collaborates with other organisations. We have a consortium of organisations that we deal with and it is run out of our general secretary's office. It includes the Children's Rights Alliance, the Ombudsman for Children, the National Parents Council, Barnardos and various other advocacy groups. We do not agree with them all of the time, but where we do agree with them, we campaign vigorously together. We add weight to their campaigns and they add weight to ours.

Were the Senator to ask me what our main request would be for teachers around inclusion, I would point to two areas. The first would be class sizes, although we admit that there has been a welcome decrease in those. The second would be quality CPD for teachers so that every teacher feels sufficiently confident, competent, skilled and up to date.

We all study it at initial teacher education. I could be out of the college for ten years before I am asked to take a special class in my school. There is a time lag between what I learned in college in quite a different situation and real-life experience. This is a matter of the kind of access to professional learning communities, with other special class teachers, with other set teachers, with other schools and quality CPD that is available in a timely manner. The biggest asks for teachers today would be class size and CPD.

Mr. David O'Sullivan:

I am heartened that the Senator has mentioned mental health supports and investing in mental health supports. We are aware that last October third-level education was given €5 million. We would not begrudge one cent of what was provided to third level. In Northern Ireland in November last year, £5 million was provided to support emotional health and well-being.

The autism good practice guidance for schools says that there should be a focus on well-being for students with autism particularly because they have a heightened vulnerability to mental health difficulties. This can impact on the participation and learning in everyday life activities. In our pre-budget submission, we have called for much more investment into mental health for young people. We are finding since the pandemic that there is quite a need in that area. There has been an increase in the services and demands on the child and adolescent mental health services by 40% from primary school pupils. In the budget, we would hope that there would be a further significant investment into mental health services for young people in schools and especially for pupils with autism. I thank the Senator for the questions.

Ms Miriam Duggan:

I will mention the word "time" again. I do know other words in the English language, but time is a huge issue, as is having time to plan and to prepare. Ms Leydon spoke about a recognition of our non-teaching duties. That is part of it. CPD is also hugely important. I was happy to hear the Senator mention the role of SNAs in schools. It is very complex. The aim for SNAs is that our students learn to be independent. It can sometimes be difficult when sharing SNAs. It is complex for them as well. Their work is important for students with special educational needs.

Ms Moira Leydon:

In terms of collaboration, one of the powerful things about trade unions, and particularly teaching unions in the Irish context, is that we have significant political capital. We do not have that just because of the power that trade unions have per sebecause of the workers. Really, the political capital that teacher unions have in this country is due to the fact that there is extensive and sustained collaboration with other agencies, groups and communities that prioritise the welfare and well-being of children. These include the Children’s Rights Alliance, Barnardos, etc.

We collaborate practically. For example, coming up to budget day we will plagiarise each other’s statistics. We will say for example that Barnados have made a case back to school costs. They are a particularly vocal voice, etc. We need to be more proactive in reaching out to the groups who have been traditionally marginalised, including the Traveller community and the Roma community. We are doing extremely well in the Irish context, as is demonstrated by national and international evidence about the achievement levels of migrant students, particularly students who were not born in Ireland. We also need to start talking to wider communities, because our schools are incredibly diverse. Our society is diverse. Diversity is part of being a democratic State. We are always doing this in our daily work, but there is always room for that wider engagement, particularly with the Senator’s own Traveller community.

Last Friday morning I attended for a short period, although unfortunately I could not attend all of it, the Children’s Rights Alliance had particular engagement-----

Eileen Flynn (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I understand. I used it as an example. The focus is autism and on special educational needs. It should include Travellers as well.

Ms Moira Leydon:

I apologise as I thought the Senator was referring exclusively to this. However, we do need to reach out further.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next speaker is Deputy Harkin.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their presentations today. I want to focus on the challenges that teachers and schools face in trying to provide quality inclusive education. I have read the witnesses' documents and I agree with many of their asks. Many of them are practical, day-to-day asks. They include issues like teachers having substitution to go to another special needs class. How are we to get experienced teachers if they cannot gain experience? There is a lot of that there. Those kinds of things can be delivered. Ms Leydon spoke about the importance of early intervention which underpins everything. That is the big picture. The witnesses have dealt with both the day-to-day and the big picture very well in their documents.

I have one other comment before I come to my two questions. A number of Deputies have commented this. There is a narrative that schools are not co-operating perhaps as well as they should. We need to dig deeper on this. This is not just about financial resources. It is about qualified personnel that can provide quality education and committed teachers. Deputy Ó Cathasaigh asked a good question. He spoke about a career pathway for those teachers. That needs to be looked at. We are in the middle of transformational change.

Ms Leydon said that we are good at starting things but this a matter of moving it on to the next step. Transformational change requires support at so many different levels. While schools have a responsibility to provide for students in their area, we should not underestimate the challenge involved. I have spoken to many teachers about the challenges they face. If there are six students in a class, four of those students might be non-verbal. There is a huge range of abilities. There can be very bright children in those classes. The teacher has to be able to understand how each of those individual children learn. We often do not understand how demanding it is for those teachers to do a good job. That needs to be recognised. I do not say that because I am a former teacher, because the truth is that I did not do half of that, but I know many teachers who do. I wanted to make those comments.

I have two questions. I asked the Minister earlier about teacher training. I did not refer to ongoing development but to actual training of teachers and to whether it has been reoriented sufficiently. This is so that when young teachers come into schools and all teachers to have broad view of what inclusive quality education is. This is also for teachers who want to specialise. Do the witnesses feel that there needs to be any change there?

My second question is on the July provision. The Chair has spoken about this and about Early Childhood Care and Education, ECCE, staff. I want the witnesses’ views on qualified childcare practitioners being involved in the July provision. We all received many emails from parents. I am not putting it too strongly when I say that they distressed beyond words this summer because, although many children might get it, their child cannot access it. What changes would the witnesses like to happen so that this can happen next year and so that the children who need it can get it? This is other than the pay change which we spoke about and I fully agree with. This is specifically around ECCE staff.

Ms M?ir?n N? Ch?ileachair:

I will take the question on teacher training first. We are very aware that much of the initial teacher education courses are up for re-accreditation at the moment. The Teaching Council of Ireland will be looking at them. No more than some schools do some things better than others, some of the colleges prepare students very well for special needs education. That can be due to the interest of a particular person in the college. All students will have a minimum. Like my previous point if I have done something in college ten, 15 years or 20 years ago and now I am faced with a principal asking me to take an autism class this year, my first questions would be, “Will I be able for this? What do I need to learn? What do I need to do?”. It goes back to the point about time. I would say, “Gosh I would love to, but what training can I get? What can I do?”.

We need to be very clear about what is there for teachers. We can do a certain amount in initial teacher education but we cannot do it all. Continuing professional development does what it says on the tin; it is continual. It has to be there on a continual basis for teachers because we are all learning all of the time. We can certainly look to standardise across the colleges so that everybody has at least to do a minimum. There are more ways of looking at inclusive education, where it is across everything, rather than just having a module on it. It can be about how we deal with parents, how we teach language, how we teach science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and how we engage in outdoor learning. It could be physical education or anything. Inclusive education can be built into everything. I am sure the colleges are all screaming as I say this. From that point of view, the nature of what we are is never enough. We always want more and better and we always want it for our students.

I have not thought about July provision and qualified childcare practitioners enough to give an informed answer on that. It is something I will certainly think about. I will come back to the Deputy and email her on it.

Ms Moira Leydon:

Ms Ní Chéileachair has covered it. On early childhood, and Senator Flynn mentioned it earlier, it is about SNAs and respect. SIPTU's Big Start campaign, which includes Fórsa and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions more generally, is critical. We have graduates in the early childhood care and education, ECCE, sector, some of whom are graduates at master's degree level, who are being paid the minimum wage. We are now at the stage where we have the joint labour committee and improved wages will be brought in. For people who are professionals with this passion and commitment to their clients, which is what teachers are, whether they are teaching very young children or adults, pay is not everything. It is also about working conditions, career pathway and validation. It is critical to have time to grow as a professional.

One of the reasons teachers get very cranky is they are just too busy to have time to think about what they want to think about. That is particularly so in the early childhood sector where they are simply not valued. If we value pay as a mark of how much we value people, they are not valued. That is critical. In addition, they are working in privately run institutions, frequently chains, which have profit as their primary orientation. Their working conditions, including continuity of work and job security, can be very precarious and vary quite significantly throughout the country. They have a good, big union behind them, SIPTU, but I can see no territorial reasons why they would not engage with this because they are so qualified. However, I can see working condition reasons that are barriers to people staying in the sector. We talk about retention in the teaching profession. To me, there is a far greater threat of an exodus from the ECCE profession than there is from mainstream teaching at present.

Ms Miriam Duggan:

I will briefly echo what Ms Chéileachair said about continuing professional development. It cannot simply be a module in training because over the course of someone's career so many things change and information will not be current. There is also the idea that people need to keep updated with things and stay constantly in touch. It needs to be a mixture of both.

Marian Harkin (Sligo-Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that. My question, which has been answered, was about the need for standardisation across the colleges.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be the last speaker. This is my first opportunity to pay tribute to all the teachers for the work they did during the Covid pandemic. My wife is a primary school teacher so I saw the workload when there is teaching from home etc. It was difficult for teachers, particularly those who had children at home. It is important to put that on the record.

Two words have jumped out at me today: inclusion and partnership. If this is going to work, it will involve partnership with all stakeholders, including boards of management in schools, teachers, the Department and the Government funding it. That has to be the case. I will be honest that I fully support the legislation that has been brought in. In my home county of Longford, we do not have an issue regarding places at present, but there have been issues around the country where schools have not engaged. It is important we have a situation where every child in future is able to access education in his or her local community and we do not have situations, which I know of, where some families have to travel 55 km per day each way to access an education. In particular, as we come up to August and the provision of school transport, there is transport to the local school, but when it comes to special education it is provided to the nearest available school. We cannot have a situation like that in future.

The school inclusion model that was spoken about is something I fully support. It is the way forward. There is support for it in the programme for Government and the Government is committed to rolling it out. Unfortunately, Covid put a stop to it for two years. I fully support the ask that mental health services be included in it. I attended the presentation in Buswells Hotel at which the INTO representative, Ms Carmel Browne, spoke about it and asked me to highlight it within my party, which I did. I hope the Government supports it because it is needed.

Special classes and teaching were spoken about. Is it possible, if a teacher is going to work in a special class in September, that such a teacher would automatically work in July provision? This is so they will have four weeks' experience prior to going into a special class, if they have not worked in a special class before. Something that should be looked at, rather than an online course, is a teacher working in person with children for that four-week period.

The issue of special schools not providing summer provision was brought up. That is disgraceful and unacceptable. July provision was brought in a number of years ago particularly for those children and families. We now have a situation where those that need it most are not getting it at all. A situation like that is absolutely unacceptable. I fully support Deputy Harkin's view on ECCE workers working in summer provision. As was stated, many have a level 7 or level 8 master's in education but we have a situation where they are signing on during the summer months, if they are only doing the ECCE year. Yet, we are struggling to have staff to provide summer provision. I personally think summer provision should be in school more so than at home. We are one of the only countries in Europe that does that. The only reason the provision is at home is because we are not getting the people to work it in the schools.

Senator Wall brought something to my attention, and it is being done in Newbridge, which is that schools have come together to make sure that at least one school every year is providing July provision. Staff from the various schools who are available work in that school and it is changed the following year. That is something that needs to happen. We cannot have a situation where at least one school in a town is not providing July provision. That is a very good proposal that should be taken on board to make sure, as I said, we have more provision out there.

The committee plans to have a look at July provision in the autumn following this school year. Unfortunately, I still believe children with most needs, who really need such provision, will not get it this year because of the lack of special schools providing it and because they are unable to supply a teacher to take children for home provision. It is unacceptable and the committee intends to highlight that we need changes for 2023. We cannot have a situation where, for two months, families of children are outside the school system and are not getting speech and language and occupational therapy supports.

Students of speech and language therapy and occupational therapy in our colleges, perhaps in third or fourth year, could work in the July provision and work with teachers, so that kids would get occupational therapy and speech and language therapy during the summer because it is too wide a gap for parents and families.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee to give their views. As a committee, we plan to make recommendations by the end of March of next year for policy changes. That is what it is about. We want to see those policy changes implemented. Ultimately, we have to look after the kids who have these needs. We thank the witnesses for their input. If there is information they wish to share with the committee, please forward it to us. This is about collaboration and partnership to make sure we get the best for the kids who need support. I thank the representatives from the INTO and the ASTI for coming before us today. It has been very informative and beneficial to all the members of the committee. Would they like to make any comments before we finish up?

Mr. David O'Sullivan:

I am heartened the Chair mentioned collaboration and partnership with the stakeholders in regard to education and to special education as well. The current Bill before the Houses of the Oireachtas in regard to the amendment to the Educational (Admission to Schools) Act has removed the legislative requirement to consult with the education stakeholders. I just want that to be noted. We hope that consultation, that partnership approach, which has served us all so well, will continue. We hope the legislative requirement to consult with stakeholders will be part of this legislation.

Chairman:

That concludes our business today. At our next meeting we will meet the Minister of State with responsibility for disability at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, and Mr. Adam Harris, chief executive officer of AsIAm.