Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 15 February 2022
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport
Engagement with the Irish Air Line Pilots' Association
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with representatives of the Irish Air Line Pilots' Association. On behalf of the committee, I thank Captain Evan Cullen and Captain Alan Brereton for their attendance. They are very welcome.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a witness's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, he or she will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that her or she complies with any such direction. Witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus, please note there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present. Witnesses participating in the committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should be mindful of domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House campus to participate in public meetings.
I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will reluctantly be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I would ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams that prior to making a contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. If attending in the committee room, members are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Masks should be worn at all times during the meeting except when speaking.
Captain Cullen is here to discuss the Air Navigation and Transport Bill 2020. A matter obviously arose in the Seanad and Senators made the sensible suggestion of inviting the captain before the committee. I call on him to make his opening statement.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
The Irish Air Line Pilots' Association, IALPA, welcomes this opportunity to appear before the committee on behalf of more than 1,200 professional pilot members in Ireland. Mindful of the short time available to us today, this opening statement is short and focused.
The Air Navigation and Transport Bill 2020 represents the most significant change to Irish aviation safety regulation in 30 years. For many years, IALPA has campaigned for such a Bill. The Bill restructures the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, into a pure regulatory body by amalgamating the safety regulatory division of the old IAA with the Commission for Aviation Regulation into a new IAA, while separating out the current commercial activities into another State-owned company.
IALPA broadly welcomes this initiative. We were keen to propose additional measures to the Bill to achieve two objectives. The first of those is the future-proofing of the legislation and the second is the enhancement of the IAA as a regulatory body. As licence holders with statutory obligations, it is essential that the regulator listens to those it regulates, such as pilots, engineers and air traffic controllers. To ensure our proposed amendments are professionally based, we retained aviation safety experts and legal professionals specialising in aviation law to help prepare the proposed amendments. IALPA lobbied Deputies and Senators from all parties and none to consider our proposed amendments and, if possible, put them into the parliamentary process. It is important to state clearly that the amendments we propose do not conflict with the programme for Government, nor do they conflict with any published policy of any political party. The proposed amendments do not in any way interfere with the intent of the Bill to restructure aviation regulation in Ireland. They do not take away from the Bill's impact on the organisations and entities that it restructures. Contrary to what has been suggested by others, our amendments do not cut across any existing EU legislation or any recommendations of the International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO.
In summary, the European Union Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, and ICAO regulations set down the minimum required standards for aviation regulation. Our amendments enhance those minimums by adding to the powers of the new IAA. They enhance the ability of the IAA as the aviation policeman in Ireland.
To our dismay, the proposals from IALPA for the enhancement of aviation regulation have been dismissed by departmental officials and the IAA for reasons that have not been properly explained to us. The first time IALPA became aware of the Department's resistance to the proposed amendments was at a hearing of the Select Committee on Transport and Communications. The Minister was on notice of our amendments but refused to accept any of them. We subsequently met with departmental officials and IAA representatives, none of whom could give us any technical reasons for their opposition to these safety enhancing proposals. They expressed the view that primary legislation is not the place for these amendments but provided no rationale for that position. IALPA is perplexed at the refusal to provide a regulator with additional powers should it need to use them in the future.
For the record, we met the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, for the first time on these proposals for 30 minutes on 1 February 2022. The evening before, the Seanad considered the amendments. Following the events in the Seanad, we met the Minister with officials on 9 February for approximately one hour in the Department of Transport, Lesson Lane. In the 18-plus months that the Bill has been in existence, these are the only two meetings the Minister of State agreed to on this matter, despite numerous requests for such meetings.
It is significant that the Select Committee on Transport and Communications considered the Air Navigation and Transport Bill before the publication of the R116 accident report. As committee members know, four brave crew members died in the accident while in the service of saving others. The two pilots were members of IALPA. The report highlights an "organisational accident", which means a combination of multiple factors aligning to cause the accident. Significantly, the report did not identify anything in the crew performance that contributed to the accident.
However, the report made recommendations, many of which were directed at the Department and the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA. The position of the Irish Air Line Pilots Association, IALPA, is that the Bill would have been more appropriately scrutinised had the transport committee had sight of the accident report and its recommendations prior to the consideration of the Bill by the select committee. IALPA also has considerable concerns around the Bureau Veritas report and its use in the Dáil and Seanad. I will now take the committee through the proposed amendments and the rationale for these amendments. On peer support programmes, there is a briefing letter addressed to the Minister and copied to the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications; IAA performance on the production of adequate and accurate maps and charts, examples of which are contained in the booklet provided; IAA performance in best international practice on safety teams, an example of which is a case study where we were excluded form the safety team; IAA performance on security of Irish aviation, examples of which are contained in the booklet provided. I now hand over to Mr. Brereton, who will cover the peer support programme.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
All of us across the community suffered stress, anxiety and mental health troubles. Professional pilots are not immune to these serious issues. There are many triggers or causes of these issues which can range from family matters of separation, divorce, bereavement or a sick child or parent. Pilots, like all others in the community, suffer substance abuse. The issues of mental health and of well-being of pilots were abundantly clear on 24 March 2015 when Germanwings Flight 9525 travelling from Barcelona to Dusseldorf was deliberately crashed by the operating pilot north-west of Nice in southern France, killing all 144 souls and six crew members on board. In Ireland we have an average of one pilot suicide every 18 months. These are not pilots who are grounded or retired. These are pilots who are actively working in Irish airlines. In one particular period of seven years we had six active pilots take their own lives. These suicides we have seen among active pilots did not involve the use of aircraft. As we have seen from the Germanwings example this is not always the case. The issues get even more complex when you consider that pilots know that their performance as pilots is degraded by issues which are impacting on their mental health. This can cause a vicious spiral in the stress in the pilot's mind. In Ireland there are pilots who are going through the full spectrum of life's challenges such as bereavement, separation, divorce and substance abuse, to name but a few. Regrettably we do not have an aviation authority that understands the gravity of the issue, or a Department of Transport that appreciates the breadth of the problem. Our experience suggests that the Department of Transport and the Irish Aviation Authority have taken a minimalist view of pilot mental health and the impact on Irish aviation.
In the 1970s in the United States, pilots returning from Vietnam with mental health issues formed peer support groups in the US airlines to help them cope and deal with the stress of these traumatic events. In IALPA we copied their successful system in the 1970s by establishing a peer support group and programme for pilots suffering mental health issues. IALPA was to the fore in Europe in establishing a peer support group. This group has helped dozens of pilots on an annual basis to deal with serious mental health issues and in many cases the risks these mental health issues have presented have been mitigated by getting the pilots the right treatment for their particular issue before they get to the flight deck or the cockpit. The key to the success of a peer support group is for the pilot to know that he or she will be free from judgment or sanction from his or her employer should he or she put his or her hand up with a problem. In Ireland today we have a situation where the Irish Aviation Authority allows and supports Irish airlines where management representatives have been installed as peers in the peer support group. Not surprisingly, in these particular cases there is very little interaction between the pilots concerned and this management-operated peer support programme. Do we think this is a safe environment for pilots in Irish aviation? We have seen evidence that some airline management teams perceive pilots with these kinds of everyday mental health issues as an inconvenience. There seems to be an overt attempt to discourage pilots from raising their hands. These issues tend to be dealt with in a disciplinary manner rather than from a health-based approach.
This is a very dangerous situation for the pilot and the airline as we have all seen, time and time again, that when mental health issues or serious stress are not allowed to be aired in a safe and healthy manner there can be tragic consequences for the pilot and others. That said, IALPA supports the establishment of a national peer support programme where aviation employees can come for help with mental health or substance issues without fear of sanction or reprisal from an aggressive management team representative. Our evidence from best international practice supports the establishment in primary legislation of a national peer support programme that allows pilots and crew members from all airlines to interact on a safe basis without fear of reprisal from their employers while also getting the help they need.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
A number of statements were made by the IAA to this committee on 24 November last. We challenge those statements. The specific statement by the IAA was:
There is one set of charts which are produced by the IAA on behalf of the State. These are visual flight rules, VFR, charts. These are charts that are intended for use in visual flying conditions. These charts specify safe altitude minima for different sectors of airspace. Those charts are provided by the IAA in compliance with International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO, requirements for these specific VFR charts. The charts provided by the IAA are accurate.
We contend that is not true. We contend the charts provided by the IAA contain multiple errors. We have provided the committee with a booklet of many errors that have been pointed out by pilots over the years. I will not go through all of the errors that we have but they are in the booklet. I will highlight just a couple.
Offshore lighthouses have been depicted at the wrong location, at more than 1 km from the correct position. For example, Bull Rock Lighthouse was displaced south-east by 4 km. It is 4 km on the chart from where it should be. Fastnet Lighthouse was displaced south by 5 km. Tuskar Lighthouse was displaced south by 1.3 km. The lighthouses are just one example.
Mountains are at incorrect co-ordinates. For example, the spot elevation of Carrauntoohil mountain, 3,414 ft, is depicted at incorrect co-ordinates, located 4 km east of its actual position. The correct location is indicated on the display screen by a blue arrow. There are also telling incorrect data with regard to the Great Sugar Loaf and Little Sugar Loaf mountains in Wicklow, from where Rescue 116 operates almost on a daily basis, saving people who have got lost or injured in the Wicklow Mountains.
Lighthouses were located at wrong co-ordinates, again, I gave the example of the Bull Rock Lighthouse. In the pack I submitted, if members go to page 10 and look at the number at the top right-hand side, they will see Achill Island, which is just south of Belmullet and Blacksod. If the members look at the scanned copy of the current IAA Aeronautical Chart, edition 03, scale 1:250,000, west, they will see missing terrain elevation contours and tint. This was purchased from Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSI, on 19 May 2017.
Next to it is a scanned copy of the old ICAO Aeronautical Chart, edition 3, scale 1:500,000, 2002, showing the correct terrain elevation contours. As members can see, there are brown points at the north of the island and they are not reflected at all. Members will note that is not far from where Rescue 116 had the accident.
There is also a picture of the sea cliffs. Those sea cliffs, which are not depicted in the tinting of the layer, are the third highest in Europe.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As I am conscious of time, I ask Mr. Cullen to allow us to start with the questioning. Then we will have plenty of time to go through that.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will and there is no issue with that. We have roughly about 20 minutes for the Senators. I reluctantly will have to confine them to five minutes each.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That is okay. I will keep it very brief. I thank Mr. Cullen for his presence here and thank him on behalf of his organisation and the work it does for his ongoing engagement with the political process. He is probably one of the most active in terms of his engagement with this committee and other Members around matters that are of serious concern, not just to his members, but to the wider flying public.
The issues Mr. Cullen raised at the end are very concerning. Is it the case that the charts that are currently provided by the IAA contain the errors that he has identified? Is today's information provided by IAA as he has described?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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We are going back to -----
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That was my next question. Is there a documented history of information being provided to the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA? They need not get into it in detail. Maybe they can provide it to the committee afterwards. Is there evidence that shows there has been ongoing communication with the IAA over a period of time? Is it fair to say that nothing happened until an accident occurred, all of a sudden we have had a situation where maps and charts have been updated very considerably since, and the Irish Air Line Pilots' Association, IALPA, is now of the view that things are in a much better shape?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
Regrettably, things are in a much better shape, not because of complaints from pilots but because of the death of crew. That is, in essence, the problem. They do not listen. They are not listening on the maps. They have not been listening on peer supports. They have not been listening on security, which is alarming.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That brings me to the next point. That sets a context for the legislation, which we are now being asked to rubber-stamp or accept, coming from Government which ultimately is a culmination of discussions that have gone on, principally within the Department of Transport, I would have thought, in consultation with the IAA. They are effectively saying to us as legislators that we do not really need to go there as they do not believe that this is necessary. Mr. Cullen is making it clear to us that we should tread carefully because here is the same corporate mix of Department and aviation authority which, prior to the accident at Blacksod, suggested, at least, by not intervening to reconfigure charts and maps, that everything was okay. We all know the sad reality of that situation.
It seems to me from what Mr. Cullen and the IALPA are saying that we have a problem here. We have an aviation authority in discussions with the Department, which has created a piece of legislation that the pilots' representative association does not believe is fully appropriate to meet the needs of all of us as the travelling public.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can I briefly add to that? What of the current maps?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It is not so much the maps for me now. That sets a context where the IAA - I do not want to apportion blame - certainly did not seem to take cognisance of the errors that existed on maps up to a point. That is probably for somewhere else to be adjudicated on, but for us to take as a context in which we address the points that are being raised by the pilots.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We want to be careful as well, with RII6, not to apportion blame. The Deputy will appreciate that.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Not at all, but it has been highlighted where the charts were prior to a particular event and how they improved afterwards. Based on what has been raised with us, and particularly with what Mr. Brereton has talked about, we need to bring the aviation authority and the Department back in to discuss that peer support issue. I am taken by the evidence that was given today. We all accept that pilots are highly specialised and highly trained in a very pressurised job but, notwithstanding their technical capacities and their ability to learn in a particular way, they are human as well. They suffer the same issues that anyone does - politician, pilot, carpenter, plumber, doctor. Really serious concerns have been raised. For me anyway, I was not aware of the statistic they mentioned.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That is striking.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Six in seven years.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I was personally aware of one or two.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I am familiar with one or two of them. I knew the families.
That is the most striking thing that has been highlighted today. Based on the evidence, there is nothing more they can tell me-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is something we will obviously consider.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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-----that we have to consider after that.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of the time with Senators.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I would suggest then, in conclusion, following on from whatever other discussions there are with other members, that the Chairman, on behalf of the committee, would write to the Department and the IAA and we bring them back in together to address this very specific issue.
We might also seek the advice of an independent human resources expert who deals with mental health issues in the main to seek his or her views on this matter.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When we finish our deliberations we will have to come together as a committee. I am conscious of the time factor as the Senators will have to leave. Senator Dooley's points were well made. I call Senator Horkan.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I will be as brief as possible. I thank Mr. Cullen and Mr. Brereton for being here. I read their opening statement last night but unfortunately the booklet was not attached and, therefore, I did not get a chance to go in depth through it but I will. I listened to their testimony this morning. The legislation is where it is at. I think they were watching the debate on the Bill in the Seanad. They will know I was chairing that debate when Senator Craughwell made his suggestion and we managed to process it as satisfactorily as we could. There is not a way to go backwards in the legislative process. The law does not allow that. However, there are measures whereby the Seanad can take further amendments to the legislation and take on board what the witnesses suggested, ideally with ministerial and departmental agreement because it would make it easier that way. Equally, if the legislation goes through the Seanad, I would point out that once an amendment to legislation is accepted in the Seanad, the Bill goes back to the Dáil and there is a further opportunity in the Dáil to make amendments. We should not rush through this legislation. I am taken by the fact, and it is very unusual, that rarely do the regulated look for higher standards than the regulator. That appears to be what the witnesses are asking for. They are looking for a higher threshold and a higher level of safety.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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As a former Vice Chairman of the finance committee, of which I was a member along with the Chairman, the then Senator and now Deputy O'Donnell, I totally take Mr. Cullen's point.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is the point I am making and Mr. Cullen has given me an extra example of it. I am taken by the fact that IALPA is a very professional outfit, representing pretty much every Irish airline pilot based in the State who number, 1,200 or thereabouts, as was referenced. They are very qualified professional people who have gone through a long period of training and do ongoing training. It is terrible if a suicide occurs anywhere but it can have tragic consequences, as we from an airline pilot perhaps doing it in the Germanwings incident. Nobody will ever take his or her life when in a clear state of mind. It is not something anyone would ever do in a clear state of mind, it happens when a person no doubt has many mental health challenges and so on.
I find it worrying the Department is not as willing to listen. I raised issues previously about maps. In a letter I received in response reference was made to some of the points I made, which we did not get to touch on. I hope to get back to the meeting from the presentation if I can to discuss the safety teams and IAA security aspects, on which we have not touched. The witnesses have given me the impression, and they can clarify if I am wrong on this, that the IALPA more wants to be the regulator than the regulator. I take it from the legislation the witnesses do not have a problem with the air navigation element but rather with the new reconstituted IAA. The air navigation base will go off and do its own thing and take most of the IAA staff and revenue, but it is the IAA regulatory element with which they have a problem. The IALPA has a problem with the fact that, from its perspective, the regulations do not go far enough to look after the safety initially of its members and, ultimately, the travelling public and but not only the travelling public given that as we saw in Lockerbie and other places, unfortunately and sadly, aviation disasters can affect people on the ground who have never been in a plane in their lives.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We can touch on that. I thank the witnesses for their interaction. It is useful all the Senators are getting to speak first because we are the people who are currently dealing with this legislation.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is there any timeframe scheduled for it?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The timeframe for dealing with it was two weeks ago, and we adjourned the debate on it.
It has not been rescheduled onto the timetable. There is no value in putting it back on the schedule until these issues have been ironed out.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That provides the window.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Dooley for his ongoing involvement. He can be assured of my support, the support of our party and the support of all of the Senators and the wider committee in trying to make sure this Bill is the best fit for purpose we can have.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman for his kind remarks earlier, which are much appreciated. We have an impasse in our deliberations on this Air Navigation and Transport Bill. All of us want to see regulation. I want to ask a number of questions and I thank Mr. Cullen for his engagement and thorough preparedness for this meeting. Does Mr. Cullen believe that any of IALPA's amendments will inhibit or take away from the independence of the regulator? To cite his example of the Central Bank, we need to have an independent regulator free from vested interests, be they Government, the transport sector or IALPA.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Have the proposals being put forward by IALPA been costed?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I will use the dreaded phrase of “the stakeholders” in airports and airlines. What is their view on the import of IALPA’s amendments and IALPA’s position on the Bill?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Like Senator Horkan, I did not get a chance to read the attachments to the opening statement. I apologise for that. I refer to the competency of overseeing aviation in our country. The IAA has approximately 140 people in its employ. Is the sector properly regulated as it is?
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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How would Mr. Cullen rate the competency of the IAA in doing its job? What is our reputation like among the European and international agencies when it comes to safety and regulation in the aviation sector?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
The IAA is world famous for scoring the highest results in the ICAO and the European agencies. However, as we explained to the Senator in a letter, these are not in-depth audits of the IAA. They check policy and make sure policies are in place, rather than practice. The in-depth-----
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr. Cullen to explain that because that is important.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
It is important. When the ICAO come to Dublin, it does not talk to the stakeholders. It just checks that Ireland has the regulations and the required personnel in place to do it. It does not go out and check the practice. It is the practice that is the problem, not the policies. All the manuals and paperwork are perfect but the issue is down to how the organisation deals with the stakeholders in the industry.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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As part of the engagement in the Seanad on Committee Stage, the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, committed to meeting IALPA, which she has done. As part of her contribution to the debate that day, she stated that she would bring forward amendments to the legislation. We should look at that in the context of what the Minister of State said on Committee Stage in the Seanad.
Like Senator Horkan, I think there is a need to have all the issues ironed out while at the same time recognising that Mr. Cullen and Mr. Brereton have, on behalf of their members, serious concerns. The Minister, the Department and the Government want to expedite this Bill. I apologise for leaving.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The honest answer is she does not have to share the amendments with any of us.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, who is a member of my party, does not have to tell me what the amendments are going to be either. Just in case Mr. Cullen thinks it is only him, it is not. I take the point, however. It is important that we have conversation and dialogue. This is an important matter. Mr. Cullen has been thorough in his presentation and engagement with us. I thank him for that.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Captains Cullen and Brereton are welcome before the committee. Captain Cullen is an aviator.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have often heard it said that if we applied the same rules to medicine as we apply to aviation, fewer people would die in operating theatres and the like. Aviation has a track record of being regulated and of being totally and utterly committed to rules, regulations and cross-checking that is second to none. That is the first point I want to make.
Captain Brereton dealt with the peer support group a few moments ago. It is no secret that I spent quite a number of years of my life in the trade union business and I would never have advised a member of my union to go to a peer support group that was appointed by management. At that stage, one is not going to peer support. Who is putting the pressure on to maintain a peer support group that is controlled by management? Do our guests know the answer to that? It is okay if they do not. Have they any ideas in that regard?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Our guests have been dealing with the Department of Transport for quite a number of years. Who is the aviation expert in the Department?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is obviously a subjective view on Mr. Cullen's part.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious the Department is not represented here today.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Cullen is entitled to his view.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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We are also entitled to hear if the captain and his members are engaging with aviators or with people who-----
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I ask our guests to explain in more detail their concerns around the Bureau Veritas report that the Minister referred to in the Dáil and Seanad.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
During the statements following the publication of the R116 accident report, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, placed great emphasis on a report by Bureau Veritas which they described as an independent review of the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, national safety oversight regulation. What was astonishing to us was that these were statements around a search and rescue accident and yet the scope of the review covered the full range of activities in respect of aircraft operations but specifically left out search and rescue.
We did not have a copy of the Bureau Veritas report; it had not been published when the Minister and the Minister of State made those statements in the Dáil and Seanad. What they left out is outlined under the methodology section on page 11 of the Bureau Veritas report. It states:
The scope of the review was to cover the range of activities that fall to the IAA within its role as national regulator under the 1993 act. [...]
In view of the travel restrictions due to the Covid-19 pandemic, the review was performed remotely. Therefore this review was not a full audit as it was not able to perform an in depth examination of the evidence to establish if there were any non-compliances in the execution of the tasks related to the regulations.
In effect, it was a desk review rather than-----
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Lighthouses are mentioned in IALPA's charts, as are some peaks, including on the Skelligs. The charts are very frightening. I believe the highest point of the Skelligs is 714 m tall and they are included in the chart at 147 m, if I am not mistaken.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Are the Skelligs on a flight path into the country?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have a few questions about the issue of security. Anecdotally, I have been told about pilots having been handed packages by the company, for example. It might be cash that has been raised on an outward flight and it is given to them in a sealed bag to be brought home. That does not make for good security. Certainly, in my military career, I would not have taken a bag like that. Will Mr. Cullen explain the repackaging issue he mentioned?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
There was a company with two production facilities, one based in Dublin and the other in Cork. The one based in Dublin carried IAA-preferred consigner status, meaning it was a secure location and the people working there had all been Garda vetted. When the goods were being packed, a sticker was applied to show they would not need to be rechecked when passing security at the airport before being loaded onto an aircraft.
The Cork facility did not have the same Garda vetting and security clearance. The product was being boxed in Cork, shrink-wrapped onto pallets and brought to the Dublin facility, that is, the secure location. The shrink wrap was then removed, the boxes were not checked and a new shrink wrap with the security stickers was applied. There was no attempt to look inside the boxes. A whistleblower approached us and we brought the matter to the attention of the IAA, which indicated it would look into it. I might explain the problem by-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is this matter currently subject to a whistleblower investigation?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, there is a legal process with the whistleblower and we cannot say anything about the matter here.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
No, there is not anymore. It has stopped. It is over, from the points of view of both the whistleblower and IALPA. The issue we had was that terrorists, when they attack civilian aircraft, do not use timers as triggers on bombs. They use pneumatic pressure. Although pressure in the cabin does not decrease as quickly as the aircraft climbs, it goes to the equivalent of roughly 8,000 ft. When an aircraft is at 40,000 ft, the pressure in the cabin is equivalent to that which would be felt on a mountain of 8,000 ft. That is how aircraft manufacturers save money on the thickness of the metal in the aircraft and so on, given the cabin is pressurised.
We were of the view that a pneumatic pressure trigger device could be placed in one of those boxes by somebody who had simply joined the workforce in Cork, without Garda vetting and so on. We approached the IAA, which indicated it would look after the matter. Based on what we were told - this has not been denied by the IAA - it is our belief the practice continued for a minimum of six months after the IAA was informed about it.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I ask the Chairman to forgive me for going over time but I sought a suspension of the debate in the Seanad because I am so deeply concerned about what is going on here. Will Mr. Cullen explain what is going with the local runway issue at Dublin Airport?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
It relates to a recommendation from Europe and all the large safety organisations about having safety teams, whereby everybody sits around a table and discusses how they could make the infrastructure safer. One such safety team, on which IALPA had a seat, is called the local runway safety team at Dublin Airport.
IALPA pointed out that Dublin Airport was not adhering to the recommendations of the ICAO regarding tailwinds on the main runway. Commercial interests wanted to maintain the main, westerly runway despite the wind and allow higher limits to be applied before they would change the runway, purely for commercial reasons. We believe that, because IALPA insisted on adhering to the international recommendation on tailwinds, we were then excluded from the meetings thenceforth, and we have never been let back into them.
As members will see in the correspondence, we complained bitterly to the IAA about this behaviour, stating we had been excluded from a safety team because of a commercial motivation at the airport, and it has done nothing about it.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There are some suggestions that what IALPA is seeking cuts way across EU and ICAO regulations. Has the association taken any legal advice on its amendments? Can Mr. Cullen state, with hand on heart, that he knows IALPA is correct?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Cullen referring to the amendments?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Has IALPA provided this advice to the Department?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
All I can say is we have told the Department. It has not asked us for the advice and, in general, we do not give out advice. Nevertheless, my question is why the Department does not produce advice to the contrary. We have challenged it on this. It has never put forward a technical point stating that our amendments cannot be made to the legislation. It has only expressed the opinion that they should not be included in primary legislation.
I also take issue with the fact that, when representatives of the IAA appeared before this committee, the designated chairperson stated the IAA did not disagree in principle with IALPA’s amendments. The letters from the IAA to the Seanad, however, are absolutely clear that the authority disagrees in principle with our amendments.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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It has been said, as Mr. Cullen noted, that primary legislation is not the place for IALPA's amendments. If they are not included in primary legislation, how can we meet the needs of pilots, that is, the people who sit in the cockpit with 300 or 400 lives sitting behind them? I cannot emphasise enough the importance of the peer support group, which absolutely must be independent of every employer. I appreciate the point IALPA is making with its amendments, but can they be made by statutory instrument, for example, or in some other way?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
We do not believe that is possible. The IAA is a unique organisation. It writes its own statutory instruments, it is not subject to freedom of information legislation or the jurisdiction of the Ombudsman and, currently, it operates as a commercial entity. It is an extraordinary organisation by any standard, not least in the western world, as we know because we have examined other jurisdictions. Other jurisdictions have always made the distinction between regulator and policeman, and commercial activities in aviation. For reasons we do not understand, this unusual entity exists and it is now, thankfully, being addressed. It was probably a political ideology in 1993 too, I would say, that gave us a financial services regulator.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I accept we will discuss this as a committee in private session, but I believe the legislation should not progress until an independent aviation expert appears before us and explains why these amendments should not be made to it.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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On the amendments IALPA is putting forward, is the association's advice such that they can only be dealt with under the primary legislation that is currently going through the Houses?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Brereton very much indeed for his time. I ask them to keep us in the loop as things move on. It is extremely important. It is the lives of passengers I am really interested in. These guys do a professional job but the passengers are the ones I am concerned for.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
I will just make the point that Boeing, when it had its first accident with the 737 MAX, almost got away with convincing it was the pilots who were at fault. It was when the second accident happened that the penny dropped that the fault was in the boardroom in Boeing, not in the cockpit.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Cullen very much indeed.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We need, obviously, to be careful about specific naming particular companies or organisations.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Cullen will appreciate my role as Chair.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Boeing is not represented here. It is only fair that I make that comment.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
If I could make one brief point in response to the one Senator Craughwell made, it is that the Rescue 116 accident investigation report is probably the most significant and insightful piece of writing in the history of Irish aviation on the culture of Irish aviation. What was extraordinary was that at our meeting on 1 February with the Minister of State, Deputy Hildegard Naughton, one of her officials stated that although the elected representatives in this country did not have sight of that report when drafting the legislation, it was okay because the Civil Service did. The committee members, as the elected representatives are charged with the public safety and we find it extraordinary that they did not have access to that piece of writing when drafting this legislation. It is extremely insightful on all the issues that we have been raising about the culture in Irish aviation. What Senator Buttimer said is what they have seen is that they do not have to tell them and, therefore, they will not. That is the point. It is best international practice to share information in a safety industry and what we have been getting for a long time is that they do not have to talk to us and, therefore, they will not. That is the problem that we are trying to highlight.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
At our meeting, it was an official who said that the officials had made an assessment because they had seen the draft final report. They had made their assessment that any amendments that would arise from the accident report were already built in to the Air Navigation and Transport Bill 2020 but, at the same time, they admitted they had no technical expertise. They admit this. It is part of their defence that they do not have technical expertise.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will now move to other members in sequence.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Much of this has been dealt with. In fairness, IALPA could not have synopsised its asks any more than in the four at the back of the submission.
Mr. Brereton spoke of the R116 report into what was an absolute tragedy, but he said it also shed a light on the culture. Could he get into the ins and outs of what he means, what the difficulties are and what needs improvement?
Mr. Alan Brereton:
I will start and then hand over to Mr. Cullen. The Rescue 116 report highlighted that it was an organisational accident. It was not a matter of a singular event occurring in the flight deck on that particular night. It highlighted that there was a series of issues in the Department of Transport, the IAA and the operator that culminated in the accident that took the lives of those four brave crew members. That was the point. In aviation, we talk about the Swiss cheese model where a number of holes line up to create a gap in the so-called "safety margin", and this is exactly what happened. We have a series of events, say, within the operator, where a number of issues were raised with the authority. They were not acted upon.
That then led those pilots to be in the situation they were in that night with inaccurate maps, inaccurate databases and faulty safety equipment. If we had a proactive effective regulator, as we see in other countries in Europe, one of those issues could have been stopped or trapped, which could have prevented that accident. That is the point that the Rescue 116 report highlighted.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is it fair to say it did not, as such, apportion blame.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, we have to be careful as a committee.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Correct, a cultural organisational failing.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
Chairman, you make a very good point. It is not to apportion blame. We believe blame is the enemy of good accident investigation.
The most important thing about an effective accident investigation report is that we learn from it. We now have a situation where we are drafting legislation in this country without learning from the failings that were highlighted in that report.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I want to get down to distil. Did anything arise under the R116 report that, in Captains Cullen and Brereton's view as operational pilots, is not covered under the proposed legislation, the Air Navigation and Transport Bill 2020, as it currently stands?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
Your question opens up a thesis of an answer, the way you have put it to us. One of the problems that I have with the way the Department proceeded is that despite all the recommendations within the report, the Department is still insisting on increasing the period for so-called section 32 examinations of the IAA. Under law, right now, section 32 of the 1993 Act demands that the Minister appoints a person to do a report on the safety and technical performance of the IAA and that has to be done every three years. The last report was done in 2019 and it had recommendations. Under current legislation it should be done again this year, but in the new legislation, they are stretching that to five years and it is unclear whether the baseline year is 2019 or 2022. We might not have another section 32 examination until 2027. How the Department could read the draft final report on Rescue 116 and still allow that to be in the Bill is beyond me. It is beyond any understanding. If anything, they should have been going the opposite way.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will hand back to Deputy Ó Murchú, who has been great for allowing me in.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was definitely worthwhile questioning.
My knowledge of airline safety is probably derived from Matthew Syed and Malcolm Gladwell. My general notion in relation to airline safety was that a determination was made. They may correct me where I am wrong - it happens quite often. It was the idea that if you were dealing with near misses-type scenarios, there was an amnesty so that you would make sure someone would come forward rather than hide and, therefore, there would be a communication. Protocols would be fixed to catch that problem and then ensure the problem did not continue into the future. This was communicated across the board. That is what IALPA is saying the ethos is, out in the wider world but not here.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
The baseline of what the Deputy said has been developed into what is called "just culture". There is a provision in the EU regulations that we must have just culture, not only in each organisation but also that the IAA is supposed to be supervising and have oversight of that just culture.
We challenge whether just culture is properly supervised in Irish aviation. We were told by a former representative of the IAA that he did not believe in just culture. Despite the fact that it was his job to police it, he said he did not believe in it.
He has since left but we are of the view that just culture is not promoted to the extent that it should be across Irish aviation.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
I will give a practical example. Thankfully it is not as severe as the near misses. It is generally the day-to-day things. I will give an example of an individual who is loading baggage onto an aircraft with the truck pulled up to the side of the aircraft. If that truck inadvertently damages the skin of the aircraft although that is an accident and the individual might feel responsible, that individual is encouraged to put his hand up and immediately say to the pilot that he might have banged the aircraft. Obviously, a puncture in the skin can be quite serious. The basis of just culture is that as long as it was not intentional, the worker came to work appropriately, did his or her job and it was an accident, he or she puts his or her hands up and is treated fairly.
The best example of that operating in the peer support group is in one operator where if I go into work and I believe a colleague has a substance abuse problem, I know I can safely say to somebody I think somebody needs to go and have a chat with Captain X or First Officer X and that person is treated fairly. That person is taken out of the flight deck and given the treatment needed and we protect that person's career as best we can, if we can. However, in other areas we see that does not exist because we have management represented as the peer.
I have personally dealt with a situation where an individual in one operator - I will not name operators - did not feel safe going to the peer support group because of its structure and actually contacted the peer support group in another Irish operator looking for help. He went out of his own organisation because he did not feel safe in it. That is indicative of a lack of just culture. How can you put your hand up and say you do not feel fit for work if your overriding fear is you will be sanctioned? Taking a pilot out of work and giving him or her the treatment he or she may need is a cost to the airline and it is perceived as an inconvenience.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, not doing it can lead to disastrous situations. In fairness, even though that individual felt unsafe, that person did what many people would not have done and went to find a solution himself or herself. However, it is not good enough that we put those sorts of obstacles in front of people.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
I can add one more layer to that, again without naming any operator. In one operator we are seeing a spike in the requirement for the peer support group because of the stress of the Covid pandemic. Obviously, we have well aired the stress that the Covid-19 pandemic has placed on pilots and the airline industry as a whole. However, in other operators we are not seeing that. Which would concern us more - an operator that is seeing a spike with people putting their hands up or an operator saying that it has no problem? I know which one I would be worried about.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Nothing to see here.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will repeat those numbers. The witnesses have said that every six or seven years, they might see one suicide.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would like to go back on that.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When was that approximately?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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At that point, there was one a year.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the situation now?
Mr. Alan Brereton:
The way it is structured at the moment in one or two of the operators is that the peer support group will keep us briefed on the level of activity among a certain pilot body. They will say they are seeing a spike with financial issues and marital issues because of the stress of people being at home. Pilots were effectively grounded for two years with all the issues that presents. We are seeing it very clearly in one operator because of the open culture that exists there. The other operator - we deal with pilots there - is totally silent. They are suffering the same problems and in fact are suffering worse financial challenges because of the way they are treated.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Some of the airlines are running peer groups as it is.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I presume one airline is not.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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IALPA wants this requirement put on a statutory footing.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is this on a statutory footing in any other jurisdiction?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is the German system statutory or voluntary?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, precedent is a big issue. It is not the only issue, however. Is this on a statutory footing in any other jurisdiction?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If all the airlines were consistent in their approach on this, would IALPA be bringing this issue before the committee today?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is all very frightening. Mr. Cullen is talking about increased regulation and catching mistakes before they become real problems. By looking after the pilots, it will look after the wider flying public.
The baseline, what is it, the section 32-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine this is the idea is that by looking at everything we catch all the mistakes thereby improving the system into the future.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
First, someone, normally from outside the jurisdiction, comes in. Not only do they talk to the Department and the IAA, but they also talk to us, the airlines and everybody involved. They get an overall picture of the landscape and what is going on. That is what good about this section 32 examination. We have never received a proper explanation of why the Minister failed between 2007 and 2014 to comply with the law and implement the section 32 examination as per what is in the law. It has been re-established. It was re-established by the Tánaiste, Deputy Varadkar, when he was Minister for Transport in 2014, but we have never received a satisfactory explanation of why the law was not complied with between 2007 and 2014.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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IALPA's difficulty now is that the law will allow for a greater amount of time.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the mapping problem, Mr. Cullen has stated that he believes we are in a better place.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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At some point, the information containing heights and everything else is received from the software companies that produce the mapping material. I do not know how we ended up with the height differentials and all the rest of it.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Cullen referred to the Skelligs.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is Mr Cullen quoting from?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
I am quoting from the State's safety plan as published by the IAA. It states:
The electronic terrain and obstacle data In Ireland, the IAA provides Electronic Terrain And Obstacle Data (ETOD), for use by industry stakeholders, such as [global positioning systems] GPS and [flight management systems] FMS database suppliers. The ETOD helps to eliminate database transfer errors in on-board [terrain awareness warning systems] TAWS equipment and thereby helps minimise [control flight into terrain] CFIT occurrences.
That is in the State's safety plan. That is why we were dismayed by some of the statements made by the IAA to this committee on 24 November.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am still somewhat confused. I obviously accept that due diligence was not done and that we had systems that were not fit for purpose. I am not still sure how that happened technically. Am I right in thinking that somebody made a technical mistake with the heights regarding taking it into the correct-----
Mr. Evan Cullen:
Let us go back to first principles on this. Under Annex 4, Ireland, as a contracting state to the ICAO, an agency of the United Nations, is obliged to provide a long list of stuff but essentially adequate and accurate maps. All of the details of how these are to be produced are set out in the annex.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Does that provide that the IAA would both have jurisdiction over and manage airspace?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
Yes. When we then come to the 1993 Act that set up the IAA, section 14 clearly states that the IAA takes on the burden of Annex 4. That is our understanding and has always been our understanding of the law. These are VFR maps. Annex 4 does not describe a difference between them and electronic data. It does not state that the IAA is only responsible for these and not the electronic data. This is our interpretation. We cannot see any other interpretation that the IAA took on the entire burden of Ireland's responsibilities to Annex 4.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Cullen will appreciate that we are not experts. The mapping area is obviously key. Can Mr. Cullen explain to a layperson the various layers of maps being provided? When he sits in his cockpit and he is flying, what layers of maps are provided to enable him to navigate?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If I may come in before that, and Mr. Cullen must excuse me if I am slightly off-tangent here, could he also tell us how that information is derived and how these mistakes would have occurred?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
There are a number of ways the information is derived. There are the original surveys that were done over the past 100 years. That information has all been digitised. We also have ground mapping radar from the NASA shuttle and a satellite owned by Airbus. These all give varying degrees of accuracy with regard to pixels and how much area is covered by each pixel. They are expensive. Obviously, the more accurate, the more expensive. That is how it works. Also, when they are more accurate and more detailed, we have to have people in to eliminate unnecessary detail. That is another problem we have. Mapping is expensive no matter who needs it but we are obliged to do it. We are obliged to provide this information. There is a get out of jail card, however. It is possible to say to the ICAO that we are not doing this and we do not know. A big box would go over Ireland and it will stated that Ireland has not properly adhered to Annex 4, but we have never done this. We have never filed a difference saying we will not adhere to Annex 4.
When I sit into the cockpit, normally we fly under instrument flight rules. We rely heavily on the databases that are contained within the computer system at the airport.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Who regulates them?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
They are supposed to be regulated by the IAA, the databases and everything. I fly with an IAA licence. The aircraft has got an IAA worthiness certificate. All of the manuals have an IAA approval page on the front. All of this was in the Rescue 116 helicopter. I have been in one and all of their manuals have an IAA approval. The pilots all have IAA licences and the aircraft have an IAA worthiness certificates.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
If I can simplify this, there are two categories of flight rules that pilots operate under. There are VFRs. When we start our careers and are in training, we navigate visually. We take off out of Weston, fly to Maynooth, use this river or that river or that town. That is how we do it. It requires certain weather conditions. That is the imperative for visual navigation.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It must be done during the day obviously.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
There are different categories for night time. As people progress on the journey to becoming a professional airline pilot, an airline transport pilot or a rescue helicopter pilot, they can use what are called instrument flight rules, which in very simple terms allow us to fly in cloud. Under those rules we are more reliant on the instruments in the flight deck. A VFR pilot will rely on the instruments to actually operate the aircraft but not necessarily to navigate. He or she will use the maps. If I could have that map for a second to show the members, every pilot who is flying around Ireland today on visual flight rules has this map sitting on his or her knee.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That physical map.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Pilots still navigate by means of the manual map.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
What we do have is more advanced - because of the cost of flight training, the more basic the aircraft, the better because it is cheaper. They can still navigate off this map today. A lot of the aircraft may have an electronic display but this can be the database upon which that display is----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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In layman's terms, and not in any way attributing blame, under the R116 report, why was the physical structure not spotted?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I still do not understand how exactly that-----
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am not very good at navigation myself. I have it.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes. The accident happened on 14 March.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
If we look at the page before it, what the IAA did, which was good practice, in page 15, there is a type of message called a notice to airmen, NOTAM. This where they tell pilots that they do not want them to do something. The IAA publishes a no-fly zone around the accident site. That no-fly zone is ten nautical miles in radius and up to 5,000 feet in altitude.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They did that from 15 March to 20 March.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If the recent Russian proposal had continued, they would have done the same thing for a specific area.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I see it - alongside the 282.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Nothing.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is below the word "lighthouse", just below it.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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This document you have given us, Where are you taking this from?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the legend?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
The legend is the key that describes what the symbols on the map mean. This was active on 31 May 2013. This is edition 6. Beside the red dot it says "lighthouses". It says that a red dot indicates a lighthouse. That red dot is indicating to pilots that Blackrock lighthouse is actually four miles west of where it should be.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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This map is indicating to the pilot.
What is the pilot looking at?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
When the pilot receives this notice to airmen, NOTAM, he will look at the information related to it. I know the IAA comes in here to ask why one would do that because everybody knows that the helicopter crashed at the lighthouse and that it was there. The lighthouse is not on the hard copy. The red dot on the Irish Aviation Authority database indicates that the lighthouse is four miles west of the crash site. It is not.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Have the witnesses raised this with the IAA?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How can the witnesses determine that it is 4 km from the lighthouse?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As far as the witnesses are concerned, the hard copy map is completely accurate.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Has the mapping system now been enhanced?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What has been done differently?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The mapping system provided by the IAA-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How recent is that?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is the mapping system in aircraft regulated by annexe-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Annexe 4. Are all the in-flight mapping systems for aircraft in the Irish jurisdiction licensed and regulated by the IAA? Do they meet international standards?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
We believe that the maps now produced and available to pilots are far superior to those that were available. Unfortunately, we believe that is because of an accident, not because of complaints. Getting back to the Air Navigation and Transport Bill, the issue is that if people were listened to and correct forums were in place, we would all be much safer. That is the point of everything we are trying to say today. I gave a booklet to the committee regarding all the errors. We have not done that exercise with the latest maps.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That would be very interesting.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses stated that the IAA is responsible. I still do not understand how the mistakes happened, but the buck stops with-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No blame was apportioned. We should be careful with what we say.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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My remark was directed to Deputy Ó Murchú. I fully accept that the map is evidence.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
A point was made about the impact of that map and the just culture. Just culture suggests that we should be able to highlight something like this, get a receptive audience, and that change should happen. It was said earlier that this is frightening. Our objective here is not to frighten people. We deal daily with things that people would consider scary. Regarding how we operate, if one identifies a threat or risk, one should come up with a plan to mitigate that risk. Regarding what Senator Craughwell said earlier, we are constantly looking for ways to make things safer. It is how we are trained. We can identify risks in the culture of Irish aviation. We need our amendments in primary legislation because we have seen in the past that a culture can be allowed to prevail where we can be ignored. We have been ignored often about many matters. Unfortunately, we have been found to be right with regard to many issues we have raised.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This is literally to ensure this international best practice and nobody is giving the witnesses an answer about why this cannot be in primary legislation. People say that it is an EU competence or such. Germany has no problem in setting up a proper peer group system.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
As Captain Cullen said, we have not been given a technical reason why our amendments cannot be accepted. Unfortunately, we are dealing with individuals who do not have the experience of the industry that we have. Many people work with us who have more than 40 years of experience in this industry. We do not feel we are being listened to. We keep being told that we are being heard but we do not feel we are being listened to.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Brereton does not believe the Department of Transport can make the call because it has stated it does not have the expertise. I will move on. I thank Mr. Cullen and Mr. Brereton. That was incredibly informative. Beyond that, we have serious work to do.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. I had a clash between another committee and this one, so I apologise for missing part of this. I will listen to the exchanges. I am glad to have the opportunity to address the witnesses. I am sorry if I am covering material that has already been covered. The Minister of State indicated that she will introduce Government amendments that will respond in a substantive way. I believe the witnesses received that correspondence on Wednesday, 9 February. It points specifically to the establishment of a stakeholders' forum and the development of a licence holders charter. Have the witnesses seen that correspondence? Does it meet their needs? If not, how does it not meet them?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is it fair to say that those two headlines do not cover the-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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This is the heart of the matter and why the witnesses are here. Will they go through the amendments? Let us do a quick recap of all the amendments, what is in them and what discussions there have been with the Minister. We have received the email too. We need to get down to business and to see nuts and bolts. Everyone wants to get to the same position. The question is whether we as a committee can assist in getting there. Is Deputy O'Rourke okay with that?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Certainly.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would like the witnesses to painstakingly go through each amendment to say how they have interacted with the Minister and the Department, and where matters stand. I know they are probably blue in the face raising matters. For the sake of completeness, the witnesses might give context to us as a committee.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many amendments are there in total?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is the fifth about the change to section 32?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Include that as a fifth. Mr. Cullen might proceed.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
Regarding the licence holders charter, we are saying that the Bill, as it impacts on the new IAA, should be amended. The amendment reads:
(1) For the purpose of ensuring that the system of authorisation and licensing is operated in an integrated and transparent manner consistent with the protection of safety, the Irish Aviation Authority shall adopt and operate a Licence Holders Charter.
(2) In this section, a Licence shall refer to any licence, permit, or authorisation that is granted by the Irish Aviation Authority to any person or body in connection with commercial aviation.
(3) The Licence Holders Charter shall make provision for— (a) the right of a Licence holder and their recognised stakeholder groups to obtain written general guidance from the Irish Aviation Authority as to any matter related to compliance with its Licence,
(b) the right of a Licence holder and recognised stakeholder groups to obtain specific written guidance from the Irish Aviation Authority, and where appropriate, direction on the interpretation of relevant legal requirements,
(c) the right of a Licence holder, in respect of any matter that arose or is arising in the course of the exercise of rights or the discharge of obligations under that Licence, to obtain a written ruling from the Irish Aviation Authority as to its compliance therewith, its duties, or authority,
(d) In respect of paragraph (c), a right to reconsideration of any such ruling by the Irish Aviation Authority, which to the fullest extent practicable, and such reconsideration shall be by persons other than the original decision maker,
(e) a procedure for regular publication of anonymised general guidance under paragraph (a) of specific guidance under paragraph (b), and subject to paragraph (d) any rulings under paragraph (c), and
(f) any incidental matters, including procedures. (4) The Irish Aviation Authority shall be bound by the Licence Holders Charter in respect of its dealings with Licence holders. It shall be without prejudice to the requirements of law in relation to the termination, withdrawal, or suspension of any Licence.
(5) Any right of a Licence Holder under this section may be exercised on its behalf by a recognised trade union or by a recognised stakeholder group.
(6) The Licence Holders Charter shall reflect and take due account of each of the following: (a) legal obligations of the relevant Licence holder and their corresponding duties independently of those of other Licence holders,
(b) the responsibilities of all Licence holders to take action where necessary to ensure compliance with their legal obligations,
(c) the need to approach compliance in an integrated manner by recognising the individual and collective role and responsibilities of all Licence holders, and
(d) the ‘Just Culture’ requirements of EU Regulation 376/2014. (7) Within 3 months of the date of the enactment of the Air Navigation and Transport Act 2021(the enactment date), following consultation of the Licence Holders Forum, the Irish Aviation Authority shall publish a draft Licence Holders Charter for public consultation and specify a period of not less than 2 months within which representations with respect to the draft Charter may be made by interested parties or the public.
(8) The Irish Aviation Authority shall consider each of the representations made and provide written reasons for adopting, modifying or rejecting each submission before adopting the Licence Holders Charter, which shall occur no later than 6 months from the enactment date and whereupon it shall become effective.
(9) Any amendments to the Licence Holders Charter shall be subject to the consultation requirements of subsections (7) and (8).
That is the licence holders charter.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can we just deal with that? Are we correct in saying that, as it seems from the correspondence we have received, the Minister and Department are open to looking at this particular issue?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will take it that matter is under firm discussion. The Department has agreed to bring forward amendments. Obviously, the amendments will have to be brought forward in the Seanad before being brought back to the Dáil.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We can follow up on that. Let us go to the next amendment. We can do a bit of business here. Does Deputy O'Rourke wish to comment?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is fine.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We are not worried about the order. We will just take it that this is the second amendment IALPA is proposing.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
On the crew peer support programme, we propose that the Act of 1993 be amended by the insertion of the following section:
(1) The Irish Aviation Authority shall periodically review the crew peer support programmes provided by the holders of air carrier licences or otherwise made available by them to crew pursuant to the requirements of CAT.GEN.MPA.215, [which is an EU regulation], to Annex IV, (Part - [commercial air transport]) of Regulation (EU) No. 965/2012.
(2) A comprehensive review of each such support programme shall be conducted by the Irish Aviation Authority at least every three years and no more frequently than at one year intervals, in respect of which it shall consider the following: (a) the nature of the programme having regard to the size and diversity of the air carrier in question,
(b) the ability of the programme to provide access to the requisite range of expert supports,
(c) the accessibility of such a programme including encouragement as to its use and the freedom of crew to access an alternative crew peer support programme to meet their personal needs,
(d) the adequacy of confidentiality arrangements,
(e) the involvement of crew representatives and recognised stakeholder groups in establishing and supporting the programme,
(f) the selection and training of peers, and their independence from any conflicting management or supervisory functions within the Air Operator’s Certificate holder or otherwise,
(g) the provision of adequate resources to the programme,
(h) the provision of mental health professionals to support peers when required by programme users, and
(i) the accessibility of programmes services and support by online and other electronic means. (3) In conducting these comprehensive reviews, the Irish Aviation Authority shall seek feedback from users of the programme to the maximum extent feasible, consistent with maintaining strict confidentiality concerning the identity of crew and their personal circumstances.
(4) In the event of any deficiency in a crew peer support programme being found during a comprehensive review, the Irish Aviation Authority may direct changes to any such programme, which shall be binding. That shall be without prejudice to the ability of the Irish Aviation Authority’s power to direct changes in respect of deficiencies other than those identified during a periodic comprehensive review.
(5) The Irish Aviation Authority shall convene the Crew Peer Support National Forum which shall include representatives of---- (a) the air carriers that it regulates and any persons engaged in the provision of support services to them or on their behalf;
(b) pilot associations and other recognised stakeholder groups and any persons from those associations engaged in the provision of support services to them or on their behalf and
(c) the medical assessor. (6) The Minister for Transport shall appoint a chairman to the Crew Peer Support National Forum.
(7) The Crew Peer Support National Forum, which shall receive secretariat services from the Irish Aviation Authority, has the following functions: (a) the sharing of best practice on crew peer support programmes,
(b) encouraging the implementation of co-operation and joint resource sharing between different crew peer support programmes,
(c) the development of a common (anonymised) database to identify trends and to monitor the effectiveness of crew peer support programmes,
(d) the approval and monitoring of the content and delivery of peer support training programmes,
(e) making recommendations to the Irish Aviation Authority as to the requirements of crew peer support programmes, and
(f) creating or encouraging the provision of a national crew peer support programme under a separate structure, whether through co-operation between programmes or by other means, and to be accessible---(i) by all crew irrespective of their employer,
(ii) by crew not willing to use the programme made available by their employer for personal confidentiality or other reasons, and
(iii) to crew who are out of work.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will hand over to Deputy O'Rourke but first Mr. Cullen might give us an indication of the interaction his organisation has had with the Minister and the Department on this particular amendment.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The stakeholders forum.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That point is well made. It strikes me from reading the Ministers response that - to put it bluntly - there is some movement and then there is a vehicle to kick things down the road. I came in at the end of the point, but we have heard very clearly the strong case made for each of the individual amendments, not just some of them, and the importance of including them in primary legislation. Neither the Department nor the Minister has sufficiently explained their reasoning.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What we will do is proceed through the amendments. This is a substantive body of work. Will Mr. Cullen proceed with the third amendment he proposes?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has said a stakeholder forum is to be established to foster the maintenance and improvement of aviation safety and support and the continued development of a positive aviation safety culture. Does that cover what the amendment proposes?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are we in that space?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
It is a start, but it is a long way off. If I read what we are proposing, the Chair can compare it with what the Minister said. We proposed to amend the Act of 1993 by the insertion of section 14A:
14A.(1) The Irish Aviation Authority shall establish a standing body to serve as the collective statutory collaborative and consultative forum in relation to air safety and its regulation between the Irish Aviation Authority and persons or bodies that it licenses or authorises who are active in commercial aviation, to be known as the Licence Holders Forum.
(2) Without prejudice to subsections (6) and (7), the Licence Holders Forum shall meet at least twice per annum at which the Irish Aviation Authority shall be represented by its Chief Executive and be accompanied by such other staff of the Irish Aviation Authority as necessary. Secretariat services shall be provided to it by the Irish Aviation Authority.
(3) Each of the following may appoint one representative on the Licence Holders Forum: (a) any air carrier holding an Air Carrier Operating Licence issued under Regulation (EC) No. 1008/2008;
(b) any recognised trade union or recognised stakeholder group representing 50 or more persons authorised to hold a commercial pilot’s licence or an airline transport pilot’s licence;
(c) any recognised trade union or recognised stakeholder group representing 50 or more persons licenced or authorised by the Irish Aviation Authority other than holders of commercial pilot licences or airline transport pilot licences. Where the particular class of licensed person is less than 50, then 50 per cent of their actual number by function shall suffice. (4) The Licence Holders Forum shall also comprise such other representatives of stakeholders in aviation safety as determined jointly by the representative of the Irish Aviation Authority and those persons appointed pursuant to subsection (3).
(5) The Licence Holders Forum shall adopt its own procedures including arrangements with respect to the promotion of candour and the treatment of confidential information.
(6) The Irish Aviation Authority shall consult the Licence Holders Forum at least 28 days in advance in relation to the following: (a) its proposal of a draft statement of strategy pursuant to section 29A(1),
(b) its submission to the Minister of any report pursuant to section 32(1) or 32(2),
(c) its submission to the Minister of an aviation safety performance statement in accordance with section 32A(1),
(d) the adoption of a State Plan for Aviation Safety in accordance with Article 8 of Regulation (EU) 2018/1139,
(e) the making of a decision pursuant to section 36,
(f) in respect of its adoption of any implementing measures (including orders pursuant to section 58) to give effect to any domestic, European Union, or international law requirement concerning or relating to authorisation or licensing, and
(g) all proposed or requested initiatives concerning the authorisation of licencing of personnel or carriers. (7) The Irish Aviation Authority shall keep the Licence Holders Forum informed in relation to the following matters: (a) the Irish Aviation Authority’s fulfilment of its regulatory performance plan as an element of its aviation safety performance plan,
(b) the implementation and operation of the Licence Holders Charter adopted under section 14B,
(c) any concern of any representative as to technical or safety standards for aircraft or air navigation or anything affecting or likely to affect the safety of civil aviation, and
(d) any guidance, clarifications, or direction issued under the Charter adopted under section 14B. (8) Each representative on the Licence Holders Forum may propose for discussion anything in relation to— (a) the licensing of persons or carriers involved in civil aviation,
(b) safety concerns associated with any licence or authorisation issued by the Irish Aviation Authority, and
(c) any issue concerning the safety of aircraft or air operations, whether or not regulated or subject to the oversight of the Irish Aviation Authority.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the difference? Mr. Evan believes the stakeholders forum, which the Minister is proposing, is a general forum, but he wants it to be a specific forum just for licence holders.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
The licence holders at the forum could decide to bring in people who are not licensed. One could argue that the hotels and restaurants around the country are stakeholders in Irish aviation. We could end up with a very broad spectrum, whereas we want to talk about safety and technical aspects. That is why it should be a licence holders forum. That would include the airports, pilots, engineers and airlines, people who are directly licensed.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If you define the membership of the forum-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but If the membership of the stakeholders forum is defined in legislation, would the rest of what has been proposed by the Minister work?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I accept that, but it has come up as a basis for discussion. Can we move to the next amendment?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is amendment No. 4. Mr. Cullen can also discuss amendment No. 5, which relates to section 32.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr. Cullen to outline the amendment.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
I will outline the basis of the graded penalties. We have members in the IAA. They are pilots. It frustrates them when they see non-compliance. They tell the operator that there is non-compliance and the operator says the non-compliance is not of a sufficient magnitude or degree that would justify the grounding of the airline. The frustration of the inspector is that he cannot justify grounding the airline and the non-compliance, therefore, continues. Just like with the Central Bank, the regulator will say it cannot stop the airline from operating but it will fine it for the non-compliance and for the duration of that non-compliance. That is what this amendment does.
It has already been introduced and it is already there as a fixed penalty but that is a different standard to this graduated penalty.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is the fixed penalty much higher?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Cullen therefore believes that within the current system, there are not penalties for what I will not call misdemeanours but for lesser infringements.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
When we met the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, to try to discuss this, the analogy we used was that the IAA was like a member of An Garda Síochána and only had two weapons. It is a slap on the wrist or 20 years for murder. We were offering a range of issues in the middle to deal with the day-to-day matters.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is there a precedent for this in any other jurisdictions?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What has been the interaction of the IALPA with the Department and the Minister on this particular amendment?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can we move now to the final amendment. This will mean that members will have some substance to deal with because this goes to the heart of the matter. The association brought it up today but perhaps our guest speakers can elaborate on section 32 and the timeframe for members who were not here .
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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In what sense?
Mr. Alan Brereton:
For argument sake, I will give an example, without naming any carriers. If we look at a practice today in Ireland as to how we train pilots where an airline has one division in Ireland and another division in Germany. To move pilots from Ireland to Germany needs what is called an operator’s conversion course because it is actually a different entity of the parent. It is effectively the same airline but is specific to that jurisdiction.
In Ireland, operators can say that a person can do a one-day course and migrate across. The Germans will say that one has to do a two-week course and it is a much bigger hurdle to climb. That is in line with the industry practice across Europe. I recently had a conversation with a member of management who said that if I want to do this in Ireland, I could do it in one day, in the morning, and do it on an e-ground school module, where the pilot just reads and watches a video. The CAA mandates that you have to go into the classroom, you sit with an instructor, you engage and he or she observes you conducting that training. That is just a small example of the difference in how the practical rules are applied between Ireland and our nearest neighbour.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can we deal with the final amendment, please? It is a very brief one but it is-----
Mr. Evan Cullen:
I will give the committee a briefing on this. Under current legislation which is section 32 of the Irish Aviation Authority Act 1993, there is a compulsion whereby the Minister must appoint a person to examine the safety and technical performance of the IAA and this must be done every three years. In the Air Navigation and Transport Bill, this is being extended out to five years. It is not immediately clear to us when one reads the Bill what the starting year is. The last section 32 examination took place in 2019. Under the current legislation it should take place this year but if the Bill is passed as is, it is possible that the section 32 examination will not be conducted until 2027.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What has been the association’s interaction with the Minister and his Department on this particular issue?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
The Department, to our surprise, said that it believes that it does not have to do this examination until 2024. We do not understand the basis of that on the plain reading of the language here. This was also the same Department that recommended to the Minister not to comply with the law between 2007 and 2014.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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On what?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will hand back now to members. I believe this gives complete context and I call now Deputy O’Rourke, to speak.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is very helpful. We have a clear picture of what is in front of us regarding the propositions that are being made strongly by our guests and the very limited, at best, audience and reception they are receiving from the Minister and his Department. That is something that I am certainly hearing loud and clear and on which we need to act.
I wish to raise another issue with the association relating to Dublin Airport; I am unsure if it has been raised yet. It is my understanding that the association has raised previously its exclusion from the local runway safety team there. Can I have an update on whether that is still the case?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
No, we are still excluded. We are not making the direct link between our insistence that a safety recommendation from ICAO would be applied to the runway selection policy at the airport but our deselection from the runway safety team followed shortly after that. We thought we were involved in the safety discussion when, in fact, other people in the room were involved in a commercial discussion.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Cullen give the committee a sense of the significance of that?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
The significance of it is that it is always preferred that aircraft takes off with a headwind. That is why runways are oriented, as far as possible, in the direction of the prevailing winds. What is very detrimental to the safety of an aircraft is landing or taking off with a tailwind. What one normally does is take off into a headwind and when established in-flight, the aircraft then turns to where it wants to go. The orientation of Dublin Airport is that the main runways are east-west. It is commercially efficient to use the westerly runway as much as possible so that aircraft can take off out to the west and then turn, normally north, to head east into Europe or to head west for the United States. When the wind, however, is blowing from the east this gives rise to a tailwind on the main westerly runway and the discussion is at what level of tolerance we are going to take the tailwind to. The aircraft are certified to a 10 knot tailwind but the difficulty is that there is no such thing as a perfect 10 knot tailwind. ICAO, on a safety basis, recommends that when the tailwind is at 5 knots, aircraft should then change runways. We wanted that policy implemented at Dublin Airport and there was resistance to it because of the commercial impact of that. We were then excluded from the runway safety team. That is the name on the team - the runway safety team. It is not the runway commercial team.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Who appoints that board and who had the association excluded from it?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I believe it is very important, Chairman, that we should follow up directly with the IAA given the imminent changes at Dublin Airport and the significant importance of it.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes, with the IAA.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
Another thing that has been missed in this debate is crew and peer support. The IAA have told us that they have audited all of the airlines and find that they are compliant with the EU regulations on peer support. We have talked to all of the peers across all of the airlines and none of them is aware of the audit that the IAA has conducted. Not one of these groups was contacted by the IAA.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is no reason we cannot follow up on that with the IAA.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Cullen explain in layman’s terms what he is talking about here because we are drilling down to the peer support group? On that, the three to five years appears to be a reasonable request. I am not saying that the others are not but that is a very defined request.
We are down then to the penalties and the peer support group.
In layman's terms, why is IALPA so forceful in campaigning for this to be placed on a statutory footing? It is a departure from the norm. The norm in other jurisdictions is for this to operate on a voluntary basis. Why is IALPA looking for it to be put into primary legislation?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
It is because we are aware of pilots who have no confidence in the peer support group made available to them. The number one objective of the peer support group is not to look after the pilot but to get a problem pilot out of the cockpit. That is the number one objective. The number two objective is to ensure the welfare of the pilot but the number one objective is to make sure none of us gets into an aeroplane whose pilot has a mental health problem. That is the number one objective. At the moment, we are not providing a safe harbour or safe place for pilots with problems to go to. What is actually being said to pilots is, if they are alcoholics and if that is found out, they will be sacked. They will then have a problem with paying the mortgage and feeding their children as well as their problem with alcohol. Pilots will not, therefore, put their hands up. We need a safe place. Peers being selected by management or coming from management themselves does not augur well. We have to be in the real world. When we said this to the Department, it chose to conflate mandatory reporting requirements on pilots as to how they operate aircraft with this peer support. It was a complete and utter demonstration of its lack of understanding of how things work in the real world. That is all it managed to do when they set this up.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Cullen say that again and explain it in layman's terms?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
In law, there are things that pilots are obliged to report. If I fly an aircraft too fast above certain speeds or too slow and get to a stall, I am obliged to report that. There are something like 27,000 mandatory reports in Irish aviation every year. Pilots reporting that they flew the aircraft too fast or too slow, that they took out the gear too fast or that they did something else they should not have done outside the parameters of the aircraft is very different from reporting that they are alcoholics, that they have a drug problem or that they have a very sick child at home and are not sleeping.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is this pervasive across the sector or is it just an issue in specific airlines?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
It is across the sector. The problem seems to be a cultural problem with Irish men. We need to put this peer support on a statutory footing for it to work and for it to gain the confidence of pilots. Pilots do not have confidence in their management teams or in the IAA on these issues.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
I believe the Chairman actually gave the reason at the start. We are asking for a departure from the norm because the culture of Irish aviation is a departure from the norm we see in Europe and the rest of the world. If we had found a receptive audience or somebody who was willing to listen and act on what we believe is a serious issue in Irish aviation in the last ten years or in the 20 years Mr. Cullen has been working on this issue for, we would not be here asking for this to be included in primary legislation. Our faith has been eroded. That is the challenge we face. We do not believe that a culture exists that wants to see this change. That is why we need it to be included in primary legislation.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is a point well made. What I am hearing is that the starting point here is different from the starting point in other countries or areas where the culture is different. This is almost about a proper check-in, based on experience to date.
Mr. Alan Brereton:
If I may add to that, I have operated in a different jurisdiction for a carrier that was regulated by the Civil Aviation Authority in the United Kingdom and there were clearly prescribed peer support programmes in place. My colleagues and I could go to these programmes, which were supported by the regulator. That does not exist in Ireland.
Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have followed the debate on my monitor. I thank Mr. Cullen and Mr. Brereton for a very clear and coherent presentation to the committee. We have had engagement in the past. I am disappointed with the engagement between IALPA and the Minister of State and her officials up to now.
We have gone through the three, four or five amendments and there has basically only been progress on one.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would say there has been good progress on one and some progress on the second, which related to stakeholders, and that further work is required on peer support, the penalties and section 32.
Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The only way this can be resolved is by getting the Minister of State, the officials and IALPA back around the table. I propose that the Chairman take part in those discussions to give them a bit of urgency and to allow for some political oversight. I suggest he go to those discussions. This Bill is before the Seanad. It is basically stalled and waiting to go back in. We need a bit of impetus to get some agreement. Some progress has been made. However, to give it something extra, I ask that this committee set up such a meeting and that the Chairman sit in as our representative and take part in those deliberations.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We are here to assist. We have been very open with every side, as the witnesses will appreciate. We would have to consider the Deputy's proposal as a committee. What we really want to do is to move things forward. We will meet as a committee to decide what the best approach is. I will be guided by the members' wishes. The one thing that has come across today is that the witnesses are utterly genuine in their advocacy.
Mr. Evan Cullen:
I knew the two pilots of Rescue 116 personally. At least eight people I have known have died flying aircraft. Not one of those deaths would have occurred if everybody else had been doing what they were supposed to be doing. Unfortunately, we do not do regulation well in Ireland. We write good regulations and we always have an A on our copybook but how we do things in practice is not good, which I believe is a cultural issue. It is not good in aviation just as it was not good in financial services or other aspects of Irish life, for which we have had to pay billions in compensation. There is an opportunity to get this right. We have never refused a meeting with anybody. We have continually asked for meetings with everybody but our willingness to meet has not been reciprocated. Even the letters we sent to the committee, Senators and Deputies were copied to the IAA and the Minister of State to make sure everybody knew what we are saying. We do not even get that courtesy returned to us. The IAA is sending politicians information and letters which refer to us and to our position but it denies us even the courtesy of having that correspondence copied to us. We then have to get it from politicians who are asking for our reaction to it. If the IAA extended that basic courtesy to us, it would help a lot.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How many members does IALPA represent?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
We represent 1,200 pilots here on the island. That is the overwhelming majority of pilots in Ireland. I accept the point the Chairman is going to make, which is that there are an awful lot of pilots across the globe who have Irish licences. I would turn that back on him and ask why there are so many aircraft on the Irish register. Why are there so many aircraft on the Irish register that never enter Irish airspace and never touch down in Ireland? Why is that? You have to come to one conclusion. They are not registering here because the Irish Aviation Authority is the toughest regulator in town.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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However, for our size as a nation, we have a significant airline industry.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is a great employer across the spectrum. We pride ourselves on that fact. What Mr. Cullen is really saying is that, at this moment in time, IALPA welcomes the separation of the regulation from the-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What the IAPA now wants is for us to come up with legislation to separate the two strands. From IAPA's perspective, now is the time to deal with every aspect. It believes doing so will result in enhancements. If its proposals were accepted, what would it do apart from benefiting members? What would it do for the airline industry in Ireland?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness to captains Cullen and Brereton, they have laid out quite clearly that the desired culture does not exist at this point and that we need amendments, embedded in some shape or form, to ensure we have what is regarded as best practice internationally for pilots and safety to the highest degree for those who are flying. We need to follow up on that.
On section 32, how expensive is an audit?
Mr. Evan Cullen:
I actually do not know. While the legislation states it is the Minister who directs it is to happen, it is actually the IAPA that must pay for it.
I will tell the Deputy another story that will give more context on this. When we eventually got a section 32 examination, in 2014 and 2015, we participated in it. We had three three-hour sessions with the examination team. After we had participated in the process to provide the information, the Minister refused to release the report to us. It was only under the freedom of information legislation and the various appeals, going all the way to the Office of Information Commissioner, that we eventually won access to it. We were quite pleased that it reflected, in very technical language, what we were saying and our concerns. The reports are very technical but they do not give a clean bill of health. I will put it to the Deputy that way.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They are necessary but it is a matter of the actions that follow them.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It does not make any sense.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Even in a perfect system, it makes sense to check and review constantly and have a feedback loop. One checks, fixes the mistakes and moves on, the result being that everything is better and everybody is safer. In fairness to the Chairman and others, this committee has said it has a body of work to do in chasing up and getting better answers. Is there anything else the delegates need us to do? They have obviously stated what is needed-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As a committee, we have all sought to work on a collective basis.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There was an issue with the Senators in that they were celebrating their centenary.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Further engagement.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank captains Evan and Brereton for attending today’s engagement with the committee.
The committee will now deliberate on the best approach. It will be one of going back to the Minister and the Department for further engagement to see if we can devise legislation that everyone can buy-in to. That is the key thing.
I thank the witnesses for their engagement. I was a bit methodical in going through the amendments, but this is what this was about.