Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of our meeting today is have an engagement with a number of stakeholders who have made written submissions to assist the committee in its consideration of the topic, minorities engaging with the justice system. This topic is an important one that was suggested by Deputy Pringle. All witnesses are appearing virtually before the committee this afternoon, from a location outside of the Leinster House precincts. I welcome them to the meeting. We are joined by Mr. John Farrelly and Ms Orla Keane from the Mental Health Commission; Mr. Bernard Joyce, director, and Ms Jacinta Brack, co-ordinator of advocacy and communications, from the Irish Traveller Movement; Dr. Salome Mbugua, CEO, and Ms Leina Ibnouf, development officer of AkiDwA; Ms Collette O'Regan, senior training and advocacy co-ordinator of LGBT Ireland; Mr. Deaglán Ó Briain and Ms Mary O'Regan, both principal officers from the Department of Justice. I thank the witnesses for being here.

I invite the witnesses to unmute their devices to allow the sound to feed into the committee room. I presume they can all hear me and there are no difficulties. They might stay on mute while they are not speaking and then unmute themselves accordingly. When we begin to engage I ask members and witnesses to mute themselves so they are not contributing to any background feedback. I ask that they would use the button to raise their hand when they wish to contribute. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Before I invite witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I must make them aware of the following note regarding parliamentary privilege. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. For witnesses attending remotely, outside of the Leinster House campus, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Witnesses participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask members who are participating remotely from Leinster House to keep their devices on mute until they are invited to speak. When they are speaking, I ask that where possible they have their camera switched on and to be mindful that we are in public session. In addition, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they are physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I cannot permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to that constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who tries to participate in this meeting from outside the precincts will be refused.

I remind members and witnesses that they are expected to strictly adhere to the subject matter scheduled for discussion today. Any deviation on these matters will be addressed through the Chair. The provisions of standing orders in relation to matters which are sub judiceplace an onus on members to avoid, if at all possible, comment which might affect or prejudice the outcome of a court decision. Therefore, we cannot admit any discussion or questioning which relates to any current litigation or court proceedings in the course of this meeting.

I will invite each organisation in turn to make an opening statement for a maximum of three minutes. Once all the opening statements have been delivered, I will then call on members of the committee, in the order they indicate, to put their questions. We are not trying to close the contributors down. We just have a very short window for being able to hold physical meetings because of Covid. Even though we are participating remotely, we are also physically in a room together. That is the constraint. Witnesses should please take it as read that we have the statements and members have read them in preparation for the meeting. We invite the witnesses to make their opening comments as much for the benefit of the people watching as for members of the committee.

I invite Mr. Farrelly to make his opening statement. He has three minutes.

Mr. John Farrelly:

On behalf of the Mental Health Commission, I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee today. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Orla Keane, general counsel for the commission.

The commission is an independent statutory body established in April 2002 under the provisions of the Mental Health Act. The principal functions of the commission are to promote, encourage and foster the establishment and maintenance of high standards and good practices in the delivery of mental health services and to take all reasonable steps to protect the interests of persons detained in approved centres. We also register and monitor the provision of inpatient mental health services in the State.

The remit of the commission was extended by the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act 2015, which provides for the establishment of the decision support service next year. Our vision is the highest quality mental health and decision support services underpinned by a person's human rights.

In our submission, we focused on the interaction of people with mental illness and An Garda Síochána. People with mental illness represent a growing minority in Ireland and although there have been significant improvements in the attitude towards and treatment of people with mental illness in the justice system, significant barriers still remain. In 2009, the commission and An Garda Síochána issued the Report of the Joint Working Group on Mental Health Services and the Police. That report made a number of recommendations including the creation of a 24-7 statutory social work service, expanded training for members of the Garda and the implementation of adequate diversion programmes to deal with minor criminal matters involving individuals with mental health problems. Twelve years later many of the recommendations have not yet come to fruition. At most, we can say that there has been some limited expansion of training for gardaí, but not to the level required.

Furthermore, since sending the committee the commission's submission, Dr. Susan Finnerty, the Inspector of Mental Health Services, has published her report on Access to Mental Health Services for People in the Criminal Justice System, which raises various concerns and makes recommendations. One issue which we focused on in the submission was the increased volume of applications made under the 2001 Act by members of An Garda Síochána and, more specifically, the increased use of section 12 of the Mental Health Act, which gives a member of An Garda Síochána the power to take a person into custody if he or she believes that a person is suffering from a mental disorder and that because of the mental disorder there is a serious likelihood of the person causing immediate and serious harm to himself or herself or to other persons. Although section 12 was enacted with the expectation that it would be used in exceptional circumstances, there has been a worrying increase in the volume of section 12 applications made. The most recent figures show a 5% increase in the number of section 12 applications made in 2021 as compared to 2020.

The commission is glad to note that the general scheme to amend the 2001 Mental Health Act includes amendments to sections 9 and 12 which will mean that only authorised officers will make applications in the future. However, this does not remove the impetus to make further improvements as it stands. An Garda Síochána still remains the only agency immediately available, day and night, to respond to crises in the community. The limited training and support available to the force creates a situation where the most vulnerable in our society are being failed.

The commission met with members of An Garda Síochána in July and is awaiting further information on a number of matters raised at that meeting. We have offered to assist with to the expansion of Garda training in mental health matters and it is our hope that through increased training and the implementation of an adequate diversion system by An Garda Síochána and the HSE, we can improve the experience of people with mental illness who interact with the justice system and that such people will receive appropriate treatment.

As outlined in our submission, we have had a number of stakeholder initiatives. We have met organisations like Cairde already and will be meeting Pavee Point in December.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am terribly sorry to interrupt. I gave the witness a little extra time to make those points about An Garda Síochána but I am afraid we are a good bit over time now. I am sure members will want to comment on many of the points made by Mr. Farrelly but we must move on to the next witness, Mr. Joyce from the Irish Traveller Movement.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to highlight issues relating to our community's engagement with the justice system. There are many and very particular barriers for Travellers in accessing legal support and justice. Shortcomings in the civil legal aid scheme limit its scope in terms of providing representation on accommodation, on discrimination under the Equal Status Acts, access to services, housing, education, for social welfare appeals and in employment cases. There are also restrictions in the scheme under section 28 of the Civil Legal Aid Act 1995 where someone is served with an eviction notice. Travellers also have significant difficulties in accessing private legal services such as those provided by solicitors because of the enormous costs involved. Furthermore, solicitors are often biased or prejudiced towards the community and have been found wanting in this area. There is a lack of cultural competency within the service and many are not familiar with specialised equality cases involving Travellers.

There is no specialised Traveller law centre in Ireland and no collective data set to work from. Therefore, the extent of Traveller’s legal needs are systemically undermined. The role in representation before the courts and tribunals played by the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, and more recently by the Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, Traveller legal service and independent law centres, is critical but inadequate relative to the demand. There is need for a State supported independent law centre for Travellers. This is supported by the Council of Europe which, in 2017, made four overarching recommendations to member states under Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights given Traveller and Roma's distinct and intersectional need for access to justice across the European Union.

The Irish Traveller Movement has long reported concerns regarding a review of hate crime legislation and we welcome the work in this area. We also endorse the campaign for a review of the Equal Status Act, given the context outlined here. We want to draw the committee’s attention to some very notable barriers for Travellers in legal instruments, namely the Intoxicating Liquor Acts 2003 to 2008, the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 and the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992. We have called for review of Section 19 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003. Cases against licensed premises were diverted to the District Court from the Equality Tribunal which has had a significant impact on Travellers who had referred most of those complaints. Since then, there as been a significant reduction in complaints taken. Court records show that in 2016, 26 out of 28 applications to the District Court under Section 19 were lodged by Travellers, with 27 out of 28 of being struck out, withdrawn or adjourned while in 2017, of the 51 out of 52 cases taken by Travellers, 50 were struck off, withdrawn or adjourned. In noting this alarming decrease, the Advisory Committee to the Framework Convention on National Minorities, in 2018, and the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, in 2019, called on the State to change the existing procedure before the District Court or to provide an alternative mechanism so that victims of discrimination have the same procedural guarantees as those of an anti-discrimination body.

For discrimination cases at the point of entry taken to the Work Place Relations Commission, WRC, the burden of proof is too gruelling for Travellers. Given that discrimination is so widespread, it is almost impossible to give practical effect or remedy where immediate redress is required. For example, venues cancelling for special occasions like weddings, christenings or communions at the last minute causes a financial burden and emotional upheaval but is so frequent that Travellers no longer report or take cases. The system itself is such that it acts as a disincentive to taking equality cases. Additionally-----

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Mr Joyce, I am terribly sorry to interrupt----

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

That is fine. Myself and Ms Jacinta Brack look forward to taking question from members and to further engagement on the issues and the contents of our submission.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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There are a number of points in the submission relating to eviction that Mr. Joyce did not get to but hopefully we will have time to discuss them later. I now invite Dr. Mbugua from AkiDwA to make her opening statement.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. I am joined by colleague, Ms Leina Ibnouf, from AkiDwA, which was established in 2001. Our work is informed by migrant women through service provision, outreach, networking, and research. Migrant women's access to justice is rendered by many factors which are intersectional based on their race, gender and ethnic background. Given their particular racial and gender-based needs and challenges, migrant women have reported to AkiDwA on their experience of racism and discrimination while trying to access legal services or enter into legal service provision, including verbal abuse, intimidation, disbelief, mistranslation and culturally insensitive behaviour.

Allow me to share with the committee some of the experiences of migrant women as a minority group engaging with the structures and institutional apparatus of the justice system in Ireland. Based on our work with migrant women, we have noted an under-reporting of crimes. Women do not come forward to report. AkiDwA members have experienced a lack of cultural understanding among legal service providers and a lack of awareness of culturally sensitive issues which leads to misunderstandings, negative perceptions and stereotypes which hinder delivery of proper support and services. Complaints have been made about poor service from An Garda Síochána and racial profiling is still a problem.

Many migrant women struggle to access information about legal services in Ireland. As a result, many do not know where or how to receive legal assistance or access justice in Ireland. The legal and justice systems in Ireland are very different to what many migrant women are used to. A lack of awareness of their rights including legal rights and protections in the context of domestic violence, hampers them.

I will now focus on issues facing migrant women as minorities engaging with the justice system. An area of enormous concern to our members is that of immigration and asylum. There are particular legal issues facing refugee women and those in direct provision centres, especially surrounding the asylum and interview processes. This includes long delays in the application process, without definitive decision dates which causes demoralisation and damages women's mental health and well-being.

Another key area of concern for IkiDwA is sexual and gender-based violence. So many women are affected by such violence, as is clear from reports from Women's Aid but their legal status is a particular issue for those women who depend on their husbands to be able to stay in this country. We also have a problem with the habitual residency condition which means that many women find themselves destitute, together with their children. While Ireland has a policy which allows to women in abusive relationships to apply for legal resident status independent of their abuser, this is at ministerial discretion and not on a statutory footing. There should be an urgent review of all policies that hamper women in terms of safety and equality.

AkiDwA also empowers professionals and front-line staff working with migrant, refugee and asylum-seeking women to understand cultural differences. We also work with many women who have been affected by female genital mutilation, FGM. While we appreciate that we have the Criminal Justice (Female Genital Mutilation) Act 2012 in Ireland, we still do not have a national action plan to address FGM in Ireland. Trafficking is also a huge problem, and many migrant women are treated as criminals when they are caught. They are not supported to relate their experiences or to tell what has happened to them during the trafficking process.

Access to legal supports and services are limited for these women, sometimes due to language barriers, fear of alienation, lack of cultural competency or fear of stigma due to cultural and religious traditions. There is a need to increase legal support and to provide access to appropriate interpretation and support facilities. There are many others issues we would like to bring to attention of the committee. These can be seen in our report. We have not even mentioned the victims of racism. We welcome any questions in that regard. My colleague, Ms Ibnouf, can answer them because she is working on an organisation called Community Alliance Against Racism. This will provide victim support for people who are experiencing racism.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Mbugua for her contribution. I am sorry that I did not spot it immediately but her camera has slipped ever so slightly. She might adjust it to make sure she is fully included in the room, even if attending remotely. I thank her for doing so. That works so much better. We can now see her properly. I call on Ms. O'Regan, who has three minutes.

Ms Collette O'Regan:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak. I will just skim through my opening statement. LGBT Ireland is a national charitable organisation working to improve the visibility, inclusion and rights of LGBTI+ people living in Ireland and their families through our front-line support services. These services include national helplines, online chat and face-to-face and online peer support groups. We learn everything about our community and its members' struggles in accessing justice from these front-line services.

The LGBTI+ community is a target for hate crime and hate incidents. Our helpline deals with up to 2,000 contacts a year and there is a large amount of engagement through our peer support services. We have a lot of experience of hate crime and hate incidents. Some 4% of those contacting the helpline report violence but, anecdotally, we know that this low percentage does not reflect the true scale of homophobic, biphobic, lesbophobic and transphobic violence occurring in Ireland. This year's Pride season saw rainbow flags being burned in Waterford and Cork and vile homophobic graffiti on a very well-known gay bar in Dublin city. This can be seen as evidence of the impact of the online far-right, anti-LGBTI+ agenda coming more offline, onto our streets and into our communities and homes.

Research carried out on our community in 2016 showed high levels of fear of violence and of actual violence, with large percentages of people being threatened or physically assaulted. Approximately 20% of respondents had been physically assaulted, nearly 15% sexually assaulted and 6% attacked with a weapon because of being LGBT+. We can also see from that 2016 survey that a large percentage of our community felt very unsafe in publicly showing affection. They did not feel safe holding hands or showing any affection, which is completely contrary to the experience of our heterosexual peers. We see those levels of threats of violence and actual violence upheld in a 2019 survey carried out by the hate and hostility research group in the University of Limerick, with one in three respondents having been threatened with violence and one in five being physically attacked because of being LGBT+. There is a feeling in our community that this is the price of being visible and that we have to expect to endure living with this fear or to actually endure hate crime or hate attacks ourselves.

The legacy of the criminalisation of our community remains very strong. It presents a strong barrier to our engagement with An Garda Síochána. We welcome the organisation's national diversity and integration strategy for the period from 2019 to 2021, which focuses on its mission, "Keeping People Safe". This has led to renewed efforts towards engagement between ourselves and An Garda Síochána. However, there is a lot more work to do in respect of training because levels of reporting remain very low because the legacy of mistrust remains very strong. It has been there for far too long. It must also be noted that our community engages in activities which can result in ambiguity as to whether we can approach An Garda Síochána. Levels of addiction are high in our community. Chemsex forms part of its social scene. LGBTI+ young people are more likely to use drugs and alcohol and constitute a disproportionate share of the young homeless population. They are vulnerable to substance abuse, to rape and sexual assault and to engaging in prostitution as a means of supporting addictions and other dependencies. All of those issues make it quite difficult for members of our community to approach An Garda Síochána because of the legal issues around some of those aspects of LGBT culture.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Of course, there should be no price to be paid for being visible. I will use this opportunity to again call for a radically different relationships and sexual education programme that is fully inclusive and that is taught from the very earliest stages. That would be a real means of addressing some of these issues. For the benefit of witnesses attending today, I will mention that last week we undertook pre-legislative scrutiny of the hate crime legislation. On the day, we had representatives of the migrant community and of Pavee Point, on behalf of the Traveller community, in attendance. Although we had written submissions, we did not have representatives from disability organisations, LGBTQ organisations or religions. If any of the witnesses wish to make any points on the general scheme of the hate crime Bill, we are open to that and we will take such points into account.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome all of the witnesses and thank them for their contributions and written statements. I will ask questions of the groups in the order they spoke. The Mental Health Commission raised some issues, including in respect of engagement with An Garda Síochána. It strikes me, and has long struck me, that many of the situations members of the Garda encounter involve individuals who have a mental health issue. These individuals have been let down by many systems before finally ending up with An Garda Síochána. In many cases, that reflects a failure of early intervention and the inability of the mental health services to cope with the level of demand and the pressure that has been put on them for a long time. When gardaí end up in that situation, they very often come across an individual who is psychotic or who has a dual diagnosis, that is, someone who has issues with drugs or alcohol in addition to another issue. The point I am coming relates to the training gardaí need to be able to deal with these multifaceted issues. The commission mentioned the pilot programme in Limerick in its submission. Does that programme answer those calls? Does it work? Are there lessons to be learned from it?

Mr. John Farrelly:

The pilot programme in Limerick still has not started. There are still questions regarding the budget for it. That programme would bring in what are known as crisis intervention teams to assist people who are unwell. A mental illness is an illness. It is a health issue in the same way as a cancer or any other health issue. When someone has a mental health problem, they need to be met by people who understand mental health, that is, trained personnel. I would like to think that, if it happens in Limerick, and it still has not, at the very least, lessons would be learned from putting it in place. However, I emphasise the recommendations in this regard. This has been going on for ten or 15 years. There is no reason these teams should not be in place all over the country at this time.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Are there examples from other jurisdictions where this type of multifaceted approach has worked?

Mr. John Farrelly:

Yes, there are examples from all over the world. There has been a fair bit of research into it. There are different types of approach but there is no doubt that it works. During the Covid pandemic, section 12 has been used 10,000 times. On 10,000 occasions, a garda felt that a person had a mental illness severe enough for them to be a risk to themselves or others. One would wonder about the capability of a garda to make that decision. However, if members of the Garda were surrounded by a 24-7 social work service - and we have a lot of social workers, they just do not work around the clock in this area - they could very quickly access the expertise to support them.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is it not the case that An Garda Síochána seeks an assessment of an individual by a psychologist before he or she is brought to a facility? Sometimes, there is no space for such individuals in those facilities and they end up being released. The risk the Garda has highlighted can sometimes come to pass because there is nowhere for these people to go.

Mr. John Farrelly:

Funnily enough, we met with the Garda to discuss that issue. I will let my colleague reply to the Deputy's question. There is a lack of transparency. The State has the Mental Health Act in place whereby if a person is brought into a mental health unit, there is a rigorous examination, transparency and a vindication of his or her rights. That transparency is not in place with respect to gardaí using their powers when people go into a station. I will hand over to our general counsel, who will give the Deputy the exact detail on what is required.

Ms Orla Keane:

I am also in charge of the mental health tribunal’s team in the Mental Health Commission. We deal with these issues all the time. The first point is that 32% of involuntary admissions used the emergency provision - we call it the section 12 provision - last year. This shows that the statistics are going in the wrong direction. They should have been decreasing. We would have expected them to be the exception, not the rule. The process begins where gardaí have a reasonable belief that somebody is suffering from a mental disorder. The criterion relating to identifying mental disorder under the Mental Health Act is very complex. even though we have asked for it, we have no visibility of the exact training gardaí get in that regard. That is not a criticism of the Garda, which engaged with us very well in July. We raised questions with the force. Unfortunately, we have not heard back. I am sure we will, but we have not heard back from them at this stage. Then the person is taken into custody. One of the problems is that there is no specific period set down in the Act regarding how long the person should be in custody. That is the first problem.

Then the person is seen by a GP. In 2020, 616 applications went through via section 12 to make people voluntarily detained. The Garda very openly stated that it initiated 5,700 or so applications under section 12. There is a gap in that regard. What happened to the other 5,100 cases? There is a lack of clarity regarding the pathway and what is happening. We hope there will be some good news on that front. The expert group on the review of the Mental Health Act stated that all applications under section 9 should be made by authorised officers and suggested that section 12 should be left there. The commission recommended that gardaí should not be allowed to make applications under sections 9 or 12. The Department of Health has taken that on board. What is now being proposed is that gardaí could take a person into custody but an authorised officer would have to come and make an assessment.

We have also stated that there needs to be a fixed period for which a person can be kept in custody. If anybody on the committee would like to pursue the issue, we would like the period for the person to be in custody to be reduced to the minimum. A person detained for being drunk and disorderly or because he or she is suspected of drink-driving is only taken into custody for three hours. For a person who is detained on foot of a mental health issue, there is no set period as regards how long he or she can be in custody. The period currently being suggested is 12 or 24 hours. We are saying that it needs to be an awful lot less.

There has been progress. Gardaí would welcome that they would have a role but that they would not make the involuntary applications because they would accept, from a human rights point of view, that the person who should be making those assessments should be someone with a health or healthcare qualification. The matter should be dealt with in the same way as that relating to a person with any other healthcare issue. I hope that assists the Deputy.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Keane for that response.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy time is just up. Perhaps Deputy Daly, who is the next speaker, might ask a follow-up question for Deputy Kenny.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I can spare 30 seconds at the end of my contribution for the Deputy Kenny. I thank all the witnesses, including Mr. Farrelly and Ms Keane, whom I remember from my time in University College Dublin, UCD. I have a few questions for Mr. Farrelly and Ms Keane in particular. I have two brief questions. Is an authorised officer an inspector or superintendent or is it somebody with training? Ms Keane asked us to ensure that a person with a mental health issue would be in custody for the minimum period. Does she want it reduced to three hours? What specific period does she envisage?

When I worked in the courts over the years, I came across prisoners who clearly had mental health difficulties, which would lead to them not having an address or bail money. Initially, they would be remanded in custody for a week. This also applied to section 4 detentions where someone is arrested for questioning. One would have had concerns about his or her mental health but would not have been able to give a reasonable or qualified assessment as to whether the person had capacity to make decisions either when he or she was arrested and placed in detention or when he or she was being remanded in custody for a week. That person would often come back from prison having spent a week in custody and even though one might have asked for an assessment to be taken of his or her mental health, nothing was done in prison. The person would often be remanded for another week or two weeks, and nothing was done for a period. Has there been any engagement with the prisons to ensure that such persons are seen by a psychiatrist, which would assist their legal representatives in making a decision as to whether they have capacity? One is sometimes boxed into a corner when a client states that he or she wants to get out of jail by way of pleading guilty to a charge and one is not sure whether he or she has the capacity to do that. My question is whether there has been engagement with the prisons to ensure that access to psychiatric services will be made available to those people.

Ms Orla Keane:

I will deal with the two brief questions and let Mr. Farrelly deal with the long one. We would like the period a person would be in custody to be reduced to the minimum time possible. Three hours or a maximum of six hours, for example, but not 12 or 24 hours. An authorised officer is defined in the current legislation as an officer of an grade determined by the HSE. The proposal under the forthcoming amended legislation is that the Mental Health Commission would set a code of practice regarding authorised officers and would deem who would be appropriate. Hopefully, that answers those two questions. I will hand over to Mr. Farrelly.

Mr. John Farrelly:

On engagement, we have had significant interaction with the prisons. We just published a report entitled Access to Mental Health Services for People in Criminal Justice System. I would point to two principles from our end. People who may have offended because of their mental illness should not enter the criminal justice system; they should be diverted earlier, either by the Garda or the courts, into forensic mental health services. Those in prison should have the same access as those in the community. The simple point is they do not have that.

I can imagine in the case of Deputy’s client at that time that with respect to the concept of that person getting a capacity assessment in prison, it would have been difficult. I have walked the remand prison in Cloverhill with the Inspector of Prisons. I have worked in mental health systems for 35 years, including in the old institutions in Ireland and England, and those are not places persons with mental illness should be put, full stop.

Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for those responses. Deputy Kenny is welcome to take the remainder of my time.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has two and a half minutes.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the migrant issue, particularly migrant women, I note at the end of Dr. Mbugua's presentation there is a reference to trafficked women and girls being used for sexual exploitation. What impact does that have on many people who would not have immigration status here? Basically, they are here illegally and that is being used as a means of coercion or control. Is there a fear in that community or among those groups of people who would be exploited in that way that if they came forward they will simply be sent back to the countries they came from? Does Dr. Mbugua consider that the authorities give sufficient recognition to the difficult and precarious situation these people are in and that they could be supported through that?

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

I thank the Deputy for his question. Many women and girls are trapped into this. We know that Ireland is a transit country.

The issue is very hidden because the majority of women fear that if they go to the Garda or report it, they will be deported or taken back. I refer to a case in June involving several women. Some of them have taken off. Many of them were trapped into this. In 2019, we had to take a corpse back to a country of origin. The woman had been sick but felt that she could not come forward due to a fear of being taken back to her country of origin if she said anything. Most of these women fear that. There is still a lack of organisation. Most of the time, women are just kept in there. They should be supported to recover from what they have gone through so that they can explain what has happened and where. Quite often, they are treated as criminals. This needs to have organisations and groups that can respond rapidly working together with the Garda to be able to support such women so that they can come forward. There are women who are trapped. Instances of trafficking are well hidden and may just come to light when the women are in trouble or sick or the situation is really unbearable and they are unable to stick it. It is still a huge problem.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Just to make the point that Ruhama yesterday launched a very good film in respect of trafficking and victims of trafficking. Of course, victims of trafficking are not asylum seekers and should not be in direct provision centres. They are victims of trafficking and need a different accommodation solution.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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As the Vice Chairman stated, we recently dealt with pre-legislative scrutiny of the hate crimes legislation.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am terribly sorry to cut across the Deputy but there is an issue with the sound. Is there anything that can be done to improve it?

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I will try my headset to see if that works better. Is that better?

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I think we can hear the Deputy now.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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As the Vice Chairman stated, we dealt with pre-legislative scrutiny on the hate crimes legislation. Reference was made to expression of hate towards the LGBT community moving from online to offline and onto the streets. My comments-----

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt. We cannot hear the Deputy. If he wishes to come to the committee room-----

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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The Vice Chairman can move on to the next contributor and come back to me later. I will see what I can do to address the issue.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can come to the committee room if that suits him.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry I had to leave the meeting due to Senators being called for a vote. I missed some of the points made but I have read the opening statements.

I refer to the just a minute, JAM, card mentioned in the submission from the Courts Service. It can be used by people with certain intellectual or learning disabilities or autism or whatever it might be in circumstances where they just need a moment to formulate their thoughts or say what they need to say to a judge, a garda or whomever it may be. I am a practising barrister who works regularly in the courts. I had never heard of this card before. What has the experience of our guests been? Have they found that system is in place or being used by people who need to use it? Is it effective? Those questions are not directed to any of the witnesses in particular. I do not know if any of them have seen the card or had cause to see it being used in the Courts Service. No response is forthcoming. That is what I was afraid the answer would be.

I refer to attitudes in the courtroom. Some of our guests referred to an understanding of cultural differences, interpretive differences and understanding that certain people have when they are before a court. On the whole, we have a good system. In general, judges are very fair. Notwithstanding that, there are attitudinal problems within some of the officialdom within the Courts Service toward particular groups. For example, I have thought for a long time that there should be specific judicial training in this area. I know that judges meet every year and have conferences and things like that. The committee recently spoke about the need for training for barristers in terms of dealing with vulnerable witnesses in the context of sex offences, for example. Is there a need for training for lawyers, but particularly for gardaí and judges in the context of court cases to understand the perspectives of vulnerable people who come before the courts? How would our guests give effect to that training? I do not know if any of our guests wish to deal with that.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

I thank the Senator for his input and his question. I mentioned some of these themes in my presentation. This is a major issue, especially for the women who are vulnerable when they end up in court or are with a lawyer. Sometimes they do not even disclose exactly what happened to them, especially in situations of gender-specific harm, such as rape. It may relate to something that happened while they were here. Some of them still fear speaking out or saying what happened to them. There are also problems with the language barrier. As I said, some of the women feel misunderstood even when they express themselves because of the way they speak, so most of them prefer to keep quiet.

I totally believe it is very important to have training. At the moment, my organisation is delivering what we call culture competence training. It is about people understanding working across different cultures and how people behave and react to different things, but also to address the unconscious bias that might exist and the assumptions people may have in respect of people from a different background. It would be very important for the committee to help us in that aspect of ensuring lawyers and others working in the courts are trained to understand working across cultures. Such training is very important so that they can provide the kind of effective support that is needed for the people who present themselves. I thank the Senator.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Does Ms O'Regan wish to come in on that issue?

Ms Collette O'Regan:

I thank the Senator. We cannot overestimate the importance of training or the lack of training across many of our core systems and the legal system in particular. We would love it if some of our community could take some of what is happening to them to court, but they do not get that far. They do not even get to engage with the Garda. I am thinking in particular about gay men of a certain age or even butch-presenting lesbians and trans people. They will just avoid at all costs reporting what is happening to them for fear of being disrespected when they are feeling most vulnerable. It is almost like a re-traumatising, which I know often happens to other vulnerable victims of crime. Even thinking about reporting and going into a Garda station not knowing who you will meet or how they will treat you is a massive barrier. People have a store of research evidence and a lot of anecdotal evidence of negative experiences in that regard. There is a need for training. We are doing training with the Garda and it is only reinforcing my belief that so much training needs to happen. I refer to the remarks of Dr. Mbugua in respect of unconscious bias. Most people who are not living the daily life of the minority identity really do not have a felt sense of what the issues are. That is the reality. It is not their fault. How would they know? They need to be trained to know because they have a duty of care and we are finding it very hard to experience that duty of care in a positive way at the moment.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Ms Brack and Mr. Joyce have their hands raised. I invite one of them to contribute.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

It is an important question. The courts system is an intimidating and challenging place for people, in terms of barristers, lawyers, judges, etc. It is very far removed from the ordinary person's experience. Even the way people dress in the High Court system is very intimidating. There is an elite system in place, which I think is ridiculous in some ways. It is so far removed from the ordinary person's experience, and it does not need to be like that. At the same time, on the question of whether training is needed, it absolutely is needed. It needs to happen in the context of access, culture and Irish Travellers, who find themselves on the receiving end of the courts system and decisions that are made. In fact, looking at representation in the criminal justice system or civil law, Travellers end up coming out on the wrong end. It is a very uneven system. It is like David and Goliath. It is very much opposed to those who are on the fringes, marginalised or excluded. On top of that, currently, there is institutional discriminatory practice in place. Human rights bodies across Europe, such as the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, CERD, have made key recommendations. We have also made key recommendations in our submission on the type of training required for solicitors, barristers and judges.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Is that okay, Senator Ward?

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Am I out of time?

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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You are out of time in the first round. I call Deputy Costello.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Having stumbled over my introductory remarks, I will move on to questions. I ask the witnesses to speak more to the Irish Traveller movement and civil legal aid and, in particular, to outline where the roadblocks are and what changes we could make. There is a civil legal aid review under way at the minute. It would be helpful if the witnesses could outline concrete issues that we could talk about in that review that we would like to see changed at the end.

I also have a question for the representatives from AkiDwA around the trafficking issue. It is basically the same issue. Our approach to human trafficking in this country is appalling. We keep tumbling down the ratings in the Trafficking in Persons, TIP, report. We are a tier 2 watch-list country for the second year. We are headed towards an automatic tier 3, which is quite worrying. What roadblocks do people face when they try to engage with that system and seek help? What concrete changes do we need to make? I will start with those two questions and ask another if there is time.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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To whom is the Deputy directing his questions?

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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We will start with Mr. Joyce.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I will refer to my colleague, Ms Brack.

Ms Jacinta Brack:

I thank the Deputy for his question. Travellers encounter many blockages in the civil legal aid system. One, in particular, is that under the Civil Legal Aid Act 1995, there are restrictions to taking cases around access to services such as housing and education and for social welfare appeals, as well as employment cases. Given the frequency with which Travellers need recourse in the area of equality law, that becomes a big problem, not least because many Travellers have difficulty, for instance, looking for private services due to the cost, but also because often Travellers are discriminated against in those services. Therefore, automatically, there are particular exclusions. We welcome the fact that the equality Acts are currently being reviewed. That is really important.

There are other significant barriers, such as the restrictions under section 28 of the Act, including cases where a person is served with an eviction notice. This, as we know, disproportionately impacts on Travellers who cannot access that support. We have made many recommendations in the submission to the committee. There is a particular barrier to Travellers in matters relating to eviction. If we could draw that to the attention of members later, we would welcome the opportunity to do so. The accessing of private legal services is difficult for Travellers on the basis of cost and also on the basis of the lack of cultural competency that exists within the service.

We have been told by the community that when they go to access legal aid, very often they are met either with hostility, indifference or an unfamiliarity on the part of the people they encounter, even at the point of entry of those services, who are not familiar with the type of law that Travellers want to access, namely, equality law. That is something we know needs to be reformed and reviewed, at least. Often, what happens in the meantime is that Traveller organisations have to act as amiciin various quasi-tribunals, for instance, the WRC. Also, as Mr. Joyce mentioned, the services are fragmented and there is no specialised legal service for Travellers or a single body that collects data from which to work. That has obviously undermined the extent to which Travellers access legal services. One of the recommendations that we have made to the committee is to resource the establishment of a Traveller independent law centre in order to service the national demand.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I have a similar question on the trafficking issue for the representatives of AkiDwA concerning the roadblocks that exist and the concrete changes that we could make to our appalling system for dealing with trafficking and trafficking victims.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

Perhaps my colleague, Ms Ibnouf, would like to respond.

Ms Leina Ibnouf:

On human trafficking, there are multiple reasons for this. First, victims will not be familiar with the law in Ireland, how to approach gardaí, what to say and do, and how to protect themselves. They are completely unaware. There is no advocacy from the solicitors to address this problem. For example, if a woman affected by trafficking comes to a Garda station, which is very rare, she will not find staff who specialise in human trafficking. She will usually encounter junior sergeants who are not aware of the issue or how to deal with it. As Dr. Mbugua said, there is a lack of cultural competency. Therefore the victim I referred to will feel she is not listened to. She has been humiliated, rejected and is in danger. It is most likely that her case will not proceed to the next step, which is the decision to legally prosecute. This sends a message to other people who are suffering and are victims of this crime that there is no hope and no point in trying. The victim is risking her life by being up-front about her case. It is a very sensitive and delicate issue to deal with. The victims really lack support. They are completely isolated. They do not have financial independence and do not know the law or who to approach. Even gardaí are not equipped to deal with their needs and complaints. Therefore, unfortunately, because gangs are involved, it is most likely that a victim who is successful in bringing her case to light will be killed, at some stage, in trafficking. That is why we do not have whole A-to-Z procedure for human trafficking cases. The process is always cut short, for one reason or another. Perhaps Dr. Mbugua, who has expertise in this area, can add to that.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank Ms Ibnouf. I think my time is up.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It is, but there may be time for a second round. I have a few short questions before we begin a second round. They concern Garda training and the specifics of it. I visited Dolphin House yesterday, where much of the family law and childcare law is taken care of. Women's Aid and Men's Aid Ireland also have offices there.

We were talking about the need for a liaison officer for An Garda Síochána to be able to receive complaints from people who were disclosing abuse or identifying risky situations. We talked about a liaison officer from Tusla too, although I think there is a slightly stronger presence there. We talked about the training that had been provided to An Garda Síochána in the context of dealing with domestic violence and coercive control. There are new offences relating to coercive control and coercive behaviours. There has been a roll-out of protective services units throughout An Garda Síochána's various divisions. Part of the training was interrupted by Covid, including the physical training being delivered. It is very different when delivered online. There is a solid training programme, although it could be expanded. I am interested in the details of the training that need to be provided to An Garda Síochána in Templemore and on an ongoing basis. The witnesses have all talked about training. What is the detail and what do they need to hear?

Ms Collette O'Regan:

I cannot stress enough that I do a lot of training, not just with gardaí but with many public services, health services and key services on which citizens depend. I cannot stress enough that there is a perception across society that everything is now fine for LGBT+ people ever since marriage equality came into effect. We are not denying how positive and fantastic that was. It has created a roadblock in people's minds to hear that LGBT+ people are still struggling a lot. It is interesting that the Vice Chair referred to online training. Much of the training requires a strong experiential dimension. Members of An Garda Síochána need to engage in experiential learning whereby they get to feel, from the inside out, what it is like to walk the walk of that identity. That can happen in a 20- or 30-minute exercise. Once they do that, the atmosphere in the training changes, because they get it. It is a Eureka moment and they get it. That is important.

The LGBT+ sector is working with the Garda strategy implementation oversight committee. We are developing training resources. We are developing a series of videos for gardaí of experiences that members of our community have had. They are short videos. Gardaí can see somebody who is gay, lesbian or trans, and hear their story or experience, some of which is positive, though usually it is not so positive. We then have to engage with that. I did it about three weeks ago with diversity liaison officers, who are meant to be the officers who we go to. The level of defensiveness two years into the strategy left me really demoralised. We have much work to do. They have to have felt an experience, because otherwise it is too abstract.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I completely agree. I want to bring in the other groups. I was on the radio today with a gentleman called Cathal O'Sullivan, who is a member of the LGBT community. He was going into schools to talk about sex education from his perspective and what it was like for him going through school. Ms O'Regan referred to experience. We are naturally empathetic. Telling stories about each other and each other's experiences is a good way of training, but it is practically impossible online, as we can see.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I thank the Vice Chair. We have to start where gardaí are. At the moment, from the lived experience of Travellers and their dealings with An Garda Síochána, there have been tensions in the past, but the attitudes of gardaí towards the Traveller community can be poor. There are issues from the point of entry to training and the type of training that gardaí do. At the moment, the training is probably completely inadequate and not fit for purpose. I do not know if that resonates with other members here. Doing three hours or six hours of training is by no means going to be sufficient to equip them to deal with the community they serve. The other side of that is that gardaí are not particularly diversified. I do not see members of the Traveller community in An Garda Síochána, which does not give me much confidence, nor do I see members of other minority groups. The training and policing are dominated by white males. There needs to be a significant change. The Garda needs to become a modern service that reflects the society it polices. We are part of a diverse society. Travellers make up less than 1% of the population but find themselves in some ways over-represented in dealings with An Garda Síochána. We need to change that.

Some training is taking place in Templemore. We are not part of that but we would like to be. We would like to see more physical engagement post Covid-19, which is about the community going in to carry out particular modules along with other minority groups. It has to be embedded in training and not seen as a once-off.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I agree. I am out of time and have to keep myself to the time allotted. It is lovely to hear other people's children in the back of Zoom calls as much as my own. It is all very normal. If there is time for a second round from me, I will come back to the other groups on that point.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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At the meeting of the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth yesterday or last week, we discussed issues with other groups representing migrants and minorities and heard about their experiences. One issue that came up frequently was that of interpreters and translation services. What is AkiDwA's experience of translation and interpreter services? Are there examples of where it worked well? The experience from the other side seemed to be negative but if there is an example of where it worked well, we might understand how to improve it, as well as the general experience, even if it is incredibly poor.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

Translation has been quite problematic for some people. It is provided, for example, by Women's Aid and others who provide services. Sometimes it can go very wrong. I will give the example of some cases that we have had. For example, a woman might have experienced gender-specific harm and be brought a translator who is a young man. It does not work and it is not culturally appropriate. It is very difficult when that happens. We have also had issues where children are translating for their parents and there are issues of domestic violence. This is unacceptable. There have been examples of where children have to translate in hospitals because a parent cannot speak the language. There have been some good situations. For example, there was training in 2018 in order that people could understand the consequences of female genital mutilation. In fact, the family was able to identify someone who wanted to translate.

When people go for their international protection hearings, some people translate different things from what is being said. It is important that it is made clear that these have to be people who are competent enough to translate properly, particularly in view of the risk to the life of another person. We have had very good stories and very bad ones. Sometimes they are mostly bad. We need proper translators to be able to translate for various groups and different people with different needs. There are organisations and groups that can support this process. It is important that the right people do so.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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This is an important issue, which, perhaps, we need to address through the Courts Service. I have had some positive experiences with translators.

In my professional work I also have had some negative experiences, including the classic whereby the person one is trying to speak to will talk for five minutes and the translator will offer a one word response. Certainly, in the context of access to justice, we all need to be drilling into this more.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I invite Senator Ward to come back in. I also have some questions on behalf of Senator Ruane who sent them on to us in advance, as she was unable to be here.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I have a brief question about the jury system. I believe there are a lot of flaws in it that may not apply to this committee meeting, but specifically I wish to raise the issue of trial by a jury of one's peers and the diversity of juries, in the context of the various groups that are meeting here. When we look at juries they tend to be relatively homogenous. There is generally a good gender divide but not so much ethnic diversity, for example, in relation to the Traveller community. Other aspects such as sexual orientation are obviously very difficult to divine while sitting in a courtroom. Do any of the witnesses believe there is a piece of work that could be done by the Courts Service in achieving greater diversity and thereby greater fairness in the jury make-up system?

Ms Leina Ibnouf:

I wanted to come back to Deputy Costello's point.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Does Mr. Joyce also want to come in?

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I could call that a leading question. For a diversified courts system, part of that is the importance of the culture of competency training for the judges, barristers and solicitors, as the Vice Chairman has talked about. It is also for the courts to diversify that to ensure that under trial by jury one tries, as much as possible, to diversify the juries in terms or other minority groups, including Travellers and others. We need to have a system in order to do that but it has to be something as society's diversity increases. I am not aware that any Travellers have actually sat on a jury. It is probably none. To highlight that, whether it is a small court case or any case, nobody has ever indicated to me, in the course of my 30 years of work, that he or she ever sat on a jury. That indicates a lot.

Ms Collette O'Regan:

In general, we see greater inclusion in people coming into services. They feel more easily able to disclose who they are if they see diversity. Basically, workplace inclusion leads to inclusive practices, inclusive conversations and inclusive language, which makes it easier for people coming into the services to pick up on that and then to engage with that. I agree that it might be hard for a jury member to come out and say, as part of the preparation, "I have not been on a jury before and I do not know what kinds of conversation or preparation happen". It might be hard but it could happen. If it was me, for example, I might be strong and resilient enough to put it out there and say "This is part of who I am." I am sure that Mr. Joyce would know if there had been a Traveller on a jury, but I hear that it is easier for Travellers to come out as gay than it is to come out as Travellers. It is possible that Travellers have been on jury duty and simply remained in the closet as Travellers, as lesbian, gay, bi- and trans people would have done as well. This really speaks to how we create inclusive cultures in our workplaces and services. The people who come into those services pick that up and also say who they are. We can also get more familiar and make it a little bit more inclusive to ask questions of everyone around sexual orientation and gender identity issues; it should not be the case that you are just asking some people, you should be asking everybody. These are simple things we can do to normalise bringing these issues into everyday contexts.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

People from ethnic minorities have been invited to do jury duty but they never actually get to be on the jury itself. I did not want to emphasise the need to ensure that they are included in the jury, because we do receive the letters. I too received one some time back. To get onto the jury itself however is next to impossible because one goes to the court, stays and then is not called in. It would be important to ensure that there is good representation. Maybe a proportional system could be introduced to at least have two people on the jury from different backgrounds. Perhaps one cannot represent or cover all of the grounds where people experience discrimination, but it is definitely important that we have representation in those juries.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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The Vice Chairman has had to step out so I have stepped into the hot seat here. Are there any other questions? No.

As the Vice Chairman has said, there are some questions from Senator Ruane, which I will ask now. We may have covered some of these but it is good to ask them anyway. One question is for the Irish Traveller Movement and for AkiDwA. What is the implication of the low level of trust between the Garda and minority communities on their engagement with the criminal justice system and how can we rebuild that trust?

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

On bias in policing, the committee will find information in our submission on the ingrained negative view towards Travellers under policing and community engagement. Racial profiling and an inconsistent response to the community where policing is required, sometimes during times of trauma and bereavement, have impacted on some parts of Travellers' ability to have confidence in policing supports and police protection. In addition, we are aware that the findings of a relevant study undertaken in 2014 were unpublished, but it was highlighted by a journalist in 2020. The Garda ethnic liaison officer found high levels of negative attitudes towards Travellers at the time and established that all of the members of the Garda who were interviewed held those attitudes in advance of taking up positions and remained negative after taking up their positions as serving gardaí. I highlight here that there is factual information about the ingrained attitudes through which members of the Garda carried out their roles. On top of this, there is unconscious and conscious bias that has been catalogued in national studies of Travellers' own attitudes, where 70% of Travellers felt discriminated against by the Garda Síochána. When we consider this, the racial profiling, the experience of the ground and the interaction, there is a lot to be done in order to give confidence. The first part of giving confidence is that we need to see members of our own community and other minority groups represented within the Garda Síochána. That gives us confidence and it gives other people confidence. We also need to see training and it must be transparent, open, and accountable. It cannot be an ad hoctokenistic measure covered in the training of members of the Garda Síochána. There must be oversight around complaints and the procedures that take place in policing in Ireland. I am aware that Garda liaison officers are currently in situ, and on that basis it is a start.

The ethnic profiling is significant issue and we really need to get on that with regard to the policing force. Legislation proscribing racial profiling is absent, along with an independent complaints mechanism. I will restate this. We are calling for an independent complaints mechanism to deal with racial profiling and the lack of statistics.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Does Dr. Mbugua want to answer that same question on how can we rebuild the trust between minority communities and the criminal justice system and the Garda?

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

I want to start with the Garda. There is a significant lack of trust between the youth and the Garda. It is important that the youth feel protected and safe but most of the time - Mr. Joyce spoke about racial profiling - it is a big problem among the youth, in particular, black youth, where we even hear them being labelled as black gangs. They are even labelled to that extent.

There are also some areas in Dublin that have been blacklisted. Even when they are seen walking around as young people in the area from three upwards, they are targeted, they are stopped sometimes and they are questioned. Most of them would not even go to report. I recommend that the Garda and the criminal justice system change the approach that they use because sometimes it comes out as racist towards a specific group, which is quite unfortunate. Also, they have to be very sensitive in the way they deal, for example, with different ethnic groups and religious groups because we have people with diverse backgrounds and diverse ethnicities as well.

It would be important to work with youth projects, especially from the ethnic minorities, and from the black minority as well, to be able to ensure that they are engaging at the community level. In particular, community leaders can help them to shape the work with the youth as well.

Previously, my organisation indicated the importance of having a task force for the migrant youth so that they can be able to be supported in a meaningful way by first understanding what are the key issues that are affecting the youth, and then reporting to the criminal justice system as well, because it does not know about so many issues. We have so many youth ending up in the courts because they do not understand consent. Consent is a big issue now in Ireland that they should know and understand. They do not understand so many things because they are coming also from a different, poor background. They feel they are segregated and targeted and there needs to be a proper way of dealing with it. A task force for migrant youth would be important, not only for ourselves as migrants but also for the State to be able to ensure that they shape the rights of these youth in a better way rather than bringing problems into the future. Garda engagement, in an approachable way and in a manner that is understanding to the youth rather than just reacting to them and making assumptions as well, is very important.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Ms O'Regan has her hand up. Does she want to come in on that question as well?

Ms Collette O'Regan:

I thank the Acting Chairman. The question was not addressed to us but I guess I want to flag up LGBT+ people in direct provision centres because they are incredibly invisible and incredibly vulnerable to sexual violence, physical harassment and violence and bullying with dreadful mental health outcomes for them and they are terrified to call in the Garda. Mostly, they are closeted inside the direct provision centres and they feel unable to talk to the management to bring in the Garda. Their first line of defence is always to try to talk to the management. The management state that it is not their job and they should bring in the Garda. It does not often meet the threshold of physical violence that will bring the Garda in. Of course, they are terrified that if the Garda comes in, it will eventually come out that they are LGBT and what has happened to them. I wanted to flag up a very invisible group who have significant barriers to overcome to access the Garda and who want to call on the Garda but are scared of them at the same time.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I see Mr. Joyce has his hand up.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I wanted to highlight one important point on Traveller accommodation.

There is an issue in terms of response to 999 calls by members of An Garda Síochána calling out to sites. When people are at their most vulnerable and they need protection, there have been cases that have been pointed out to us over many years about the response time, not responding, not getting out and not intervening, and as a result serious situations have unfolded on Traveller sites. The Traveller community needs to feel protected and safe and feel that they are also part of the community. The values that underpin An Garda Síochána are to protect and service and they should protect and serve everybody. I am not saying they are not doing that but that there have been incidents where the response time has been questionably slow. That is an important point to add to the conversation here today.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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We still have plenty of time, if Senator Ward has further questions and wants to jump in. In the absence of a hand going up, I will ask another question from Senator Ruane. Among her questions, Senator Ruane asked what are the benefits to having an intermediary intervention service between minorities and State agencies. Perhaps all of the witnesses can, I would emphasise, very briefly, share their experiences of the benefits and potential pitfalls of having an intermediary intervention service between the minorities they support and the State agencies.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

The idea of having intermediary engagement with other groups is important. Part of one of our calls, and I am sure those of other civil society groups, was having liaison officers from An Garda Síochána in terms of community policing which is significant. I see that as the pathway. If I am right, there is not enough investment, support and training. In fact, this does not get the necessary emphasis or priority.

Community policing is about establishing and building on a relationship but also holding and sustaining the relationships with the community. Specifically, when we talked about young people here as well, it is about engaging with those young people and giving them confidence. Before incidents happen, it is about working with youth programmes, community groups, Traveller organisations, migrants and other minority groups, and the LGBT, and then establishing those relationships and looking at how you bring them into the work that is happening.

The Garda Síochána, if I am right, does not only do policing and has other roles and functions. It is about building that awareness right across the spectrum. The Garda diversity plan is also in place and there is an oversight group within that. That is another opportunity. Within the Traveller sector, there is a national Traveller Garda advisory committee which the Irish Traveller Movement and the other organisations are part of. It is establishing those relationships and functions and working with those who are leading in that direction.

Those are the areas which we can build on, complement each other and work together on. Where there is more engagement, there are more successes. When we see that, there are absolutely more successes but there can be blind sides. There are Travellers who are LGBT, there are those who are in direct provision who are LGBT and there are migrants. It is cross-cutting and inter-sectional. We need to ensure that is embedded and understood right across the board, including - we talked a little bit about this - in the area of mental health, which is obviously a big issue as well. We need to ensure that there is a holistic and real approach that is warranted in terms of meeting the needs of today.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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Ms O'Regan had her hand up to reply to that question.

Ms Collette O'Regan:

In our submission, we spoke about this. The intermediaries need to be from the NGO side as well as from the services side. As NGOs, we have a lot of casework experience. We are doing as much as we can on all the issues that come to us but having a dedicated access to justice position in some of our NGOs would resource us to push to get those intermediaries set up and to keep engaged.

Mr. Joyce spoke about community policing.

It is already happening with diversity liaison officers, where the new strategy is that people get moved on. Therefore, we are constantly rebuilding relationships. If people on the NGO side of the equation do not have that institutional knowledge, memory and know-how, then we will not be able to build up expertise and learning as we go. The NGOs and the services investing in intermediaries is the only way we will be able to make the changes we all want to see. One side cannot do it on its own. We must do it together, but we will require additional resources to do it.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I see Senator Ward's hand up, and I will come back to him in one second. I call Dr. Mbugua first to answer that question.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

Regarding building a better society, and building trust and dealing with issues to the extent where we do not need to keep returning to them again, there is a definite need to work with the community. The community is key when it comes to engaging with the people experiencing issues on the ground. We have experienced this in my organisation, for example, when we had problems with where people were residing in residential areas. Naturally, getting the Garda to work with us as an organisation and then working with the people experiencing these problems, and with the community, was an approach that worked well to turn the problems around there. Therefore, this approach can work magic. It can also make our work much easier for all of us, instead of it being a case of having to assume that the Garda and whatever services will do their jobs without having to link up with the groups and organisations on the ground. It is important to approach issues in this way and it can help to solve most of the problems, and address them with more constancy, rather than just going through the motions and round and round and on and on again in this regard.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I wish to address the issue of juries again. Regarding what Ms O'Regan said, I am not sure I properly understood what she was suggesting. Was she suggesting that people should be polled concerning aspects of their lives that may be diverse, such as sexual orientation or being a member of the Traveller community or an ethnic community? Other groups of people may have intellectual disabilities or mental health difficulties that may affect jury service, and we encountered issues in the past concerning people who were blind or deaf serving on juries. Those are major issues for people serving on juries. My next point is for Dr. Mbugua, but I will let Ms O'Regan answer this question first, because I am not sure I understood her point.

Ms Collette O'Regan:

Okay. I thank the Senator for his question, and I am sorry if I did not explain my point well.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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It is my fault.

Ms Collette O'Regan:

What I mean by polling is that often the focus of the issue is on the minority community itself, when in fact we all have identities. Everyone has a sexual orientation, for example. The biggest sexual orientation in Ireland is heterosexuality, but heterosexuals never have to speak about their perspective because it is just taken as so normal. It is the minority people who must speak about their identity. In the same way, everybody in Ireland has an ethnicity. White, Irish and settled is the biggest ethnicity here, but we never have to talk about that identity because it is just so normal and such a given in that regard. That is the powershift that must happen, and we can begin to make that happen.

It will create a great deal of awareness and privilege checking. It will make invisible privilege very visible, and that will help to make minority people at the table feel a bit more relaxed, because there will be an awareness then that at least the other people there have an understanding that not everyone is the same and that all opinions will be taken into account. The people in the minority may be able to trust that the attitudes of the other people present will not be hostile. I say that because that is the fear. We are always struggling with how we can try to achieve that aim. One of the easiest and most universal ways of doing this is to ask everybody the same questions. It may seem uncomfortable to do that, but it will get more comfortable and the majority group must feel a little bit uncomfortable, because they are privileged. That is where I am going with what I was suggesting.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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The Acting Chair can stop me if he needs to, but regarding the information available to the lawyers in court concerning the personal details of jurors, my understanding is that usually the address is provided and, sometimes, an occupation as well. Would Ms O'Regan be happy if there was also an opportunity for prospective jurors to provide information about their ethnicity, sexual orientation, or any other factor they felt was relevant, for inclusion on the jury list? I do not know if there are GDPR issues in this regard, but would she consider such an approach to be a positive or welcome development?

Ms Collette O'Regan:

I am not sure about the GDPR issues either. This is, however, a conversation and an issue worth exploring further. Perhaps we could talk to others who may be more expert in the legalities of this aspect, but the CSO, for example, includes such questions. It is, of course, not a guarantee that people will answer the questions honestly. I suppose people can only feel safe if there is a feeling that everyone has been asked and will answer the same questions. I am not sure how else we can begin to do this. Something like this is needed, and if it is not a matter of questions being asked, initially, then I am not sure that people will come. People may well be there on juries already, but they might be closeted and afraid that if they were to say who they were, the revelations would colour everything else they might say after that and their contributions would be heard in a different way.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I confess that it is not something that I had thought of. From the perspective of being in the courtroom when jurors are being sworn, we always think of the obvious differences. For example, ethnicity is an obvious one that we can see concerning someone’s difference.

Dr. Mbugua said earlier that people who are ethnically different often do not get to serve on juries, or it may be impossible for them to do so. I do not agree with that because my practical experience is that increasingly, as Ireland is becoming more diverse and, more importantly, as non-Irish people, if I can use that term, those born and living here or those who came here, are becoming citizens, more and more of them are finding their way into jury pools and, consequently, are being selected for juries. Would Dr. Mbugua also be happy with the idea of people giving advance notice of their ethnicity or something like that? How does she think that would make people feel?

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

I will clarify, first, that I was talking about jury duty, and I do not know if it is the same. I am referring to people who have been called and then they do not get to decide a case. I just want to make myself clear in that regard.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

There are so many people from ethnic minorities who are now highly qualified to be on juries and everything of this type. Returning to the Senator's question regarding ethnicity, it is important. If we want to get to know who is presenting in this context, how can we know that if we do not collect this information? From my perspective, therefore, it is important that these questions are asked of everybody, whether they are indigenous Irish, Travellers or LGBTQ people. It should be a general question posed to everybody. In that way, we will be able to capture the information required to allow us to be informed regarding how we are doing as a society and as a country.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Mbugua. I ask Mr. Joyce the same question about the Traveller community.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I see that Mr Joyce indicated and I was going to call him next anyway. If the other witnesses wish to contribute on this issue or a previous point, they should feel free to indicate at any stage and we will come to them. I call Mr. Joyce.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

What we are all probably saying is that there is a need for an ethnic question to be included. It is not necessary for someone to be on a jury and to display a T, for example, to specify that they are a Traveller, LGBT, etc., and nor should such information be anybody else’s business. However, what the system should be able to accommodate is the ability to collect data and identify information regarding the diversity of juries. It should be possible to collect such data over a year to provide insight into how diverse juries are. It should also be determined what measures must be put in place to address whatever gaps might be found and to improve the court system in future. There is a real and tangible way in which that can be done, and we have been asking for this for many years in respect of ethnic data being disaggregated across all public bodies, including the courts system and An Garda Síochána.

There is precedence in other areas and I cannot see why that would not cross over for juries.

Ms Orla Keane:

I suspect that GDPR would be a big issue. I also suspect that if this could be done, people would have to be given the option of whether to disclose the data. Owing to the range of stigmas we are discussing here, whether it is mental health, ethnic minority status or being from the Traveller or LGBT community, people may not want to disclose that data. In the initial stages at least, anonymous surveys could be sent to the people who are selected for jury duty, as well as those who are not selected, and one could work on the basis of the data collected. However, there are probably some basic GDPR issues.

The issue I wanted to raise was training because it is fundamental. I fully endorse what Ms O'Regan said. I expect gardaí receive training on mental health but they probably receive a lot of book training, in other words, they will read what this or that section of a book says, but they are not hearing from people with mental health experience. They could hear from an LGBT person or someone from an ethnic minority who has a mental health issue. We know that fewer people from the Traveller community are involuntarily detained because we have looked at that issue. All of the organisations need to hear from those people and meet representatives of these communities. Unless that is done, they are not going to learn about the issues and if there are fixed attitudes, they are not going to change. Expanded training and hearing from the people involved are key.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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We have heard some fascinating insights and I hope they will find their way into our final report. I thank the witnesses for outlining ideas that had not occurred to me at all.

Mr. Deaglán Ó Briain:

I would like to comment on the issue of juries. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is progressing legislation on the position of people with disabilities serving on juries.

The committee might consider recommending that the Courts Service consider ways to make juries more diverse. As the juries list is effectively derived from the list of Dáil electors, there would be real difficulty in capturing the type of information the committee and witnesses have been discussing by obliging people to disclose their personal characteristics when they register to vote. There is a real GDPR issue and a question of proportionality with that. The Department would welcome a recommendation that the Courts Service and the Department look at how we could make juries more diverse.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Section 10 refers to the electoral register. Is it the Dáil electors or is it the full register, including, for example, local electors who might not necessarily be citizens?

Mr. Deaglán Ó Briain:

The Senator is the expert. I did a quick look at the legislation and it seems to refer to the register for Dáil elections.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Ó Briain has made an interesting point.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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As some time remains, I will ask the witnesses if they wish to make a very brief final comment before we conclude.

Ms Mary O'Regan:

As the Mental Health Commission presented first, I wanted to let the dialogue continue. The high-level task force on mental health is sponsored by the Departments of Justice and Health. We will meet the Mental Health Commission on its recent report and findings. The publication is timely because it dovetails well with the work we are pursuing as part of the task force.

On a related matter, we all acknowledge the very complex needs of individuals with severe mental health difficulties, or even difficulties in the milder range, and their interaction with the criminal justice system. That is to the forefront of the task force. As the task force progresses its work, one area that is being looked at is diversion. Depending on the needs of the individual, diversion is important when dealing with people with mental health difficulties and keeping them out of the prison environment, where possible.

Ms Leina Ibnouf:

Is there any way to make it mandatory for the legal system, stakeholders and the courts to fully inform service users of their rights and entitlements from the minute they arrive? For example, most service users, whether they are Irish Travellers or migrants, do not know they have the right to change solicitors or translators. It is important, therefore, that people are informed of their rights.

The time between court proceedings is too long and very often plays a powerful role in people's mental health. The time is too long, especially if the case involves domestic abuse, human trafficking or securing asylum. The length of time between hearings is a form of mental torture because victims feel re-traumatised by having to keep their memories alive and fresh for the case.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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There is a general issue, one with which I am sure Senator Ward is familiar, with the timing of cases and the length of time between cases. The committee could spend a lot of time discussing the impact that the lack of judges is having and the roadblock in the courts. I have indulged myself by getting on the soapbox about that. I invite Ms Collette O'Regan, Mr. Joyce, Mr. Ó Briain and a representative of the Mental Health Commission to make final comments before we wrap up the meeting.

Ms Collette O'Regan:

It is unbelievable that Ms Ibnouf mentioned exactly what I intended to raise in my final comment, namely, the length of time people spend trying to access justice in terms of their international protection application. I am speaking in particular on behalf of LGBT+ applicants who are spending far too long in a very isolated, closeted and hostile environment in direct provision. They dread what is going to happen at their interview and wonder how they will explain why they are here. That is not fair access to justice in terms of their experience of international protection.

The Department of Justice needs to invest in additional human resources so that people get a fairer and just experience of international protection in a much timelier fashion. I cannot stress how much better their mental health and well-being would be. Going back to Mr. Joyce's point, all these things are interconnected and people are battling with multiple struggles at once.

Mr. Bernard Joyce:

I wish to re-emphasise some of the points we made earlier. Given that so many people are so far removed from the justice system and they cannot access the justice system, they feel the justice system is against them. That can be seen in access to services and goods. In the Traveller community when somebody dies, the community comes together. Whole towns, pubs and hotels close. It is horrendous that this can happen in 2021. It causes trauma, pain and hurt. People who are coming home to small towns and, in some cases, cities cannot take recourse of action. I do not know if any other community has experienced that. It really affects the community.

In addition, that gives a kind of a message of access going against the hope and aspiration of where we should be as a society. People should have access to services under anti-discrimination legislation. That is what I was highlighting earlier. In addition, we have the criminal trespass legislation. If an Irish Traveller is in movement it is a criminal offence. They are being criminalised for being a nomadic ethnic group. As members will know, Travellers were formally recognised as an ethnic group in 2017 by Dáil Éireann. However, legislative changes did not come with that. We still cannot travel on this island, nor do we have any recourse to action on this island when threatened with evictions from public lands across the country.

Many families are living in overcrowded, substandard poor living conditions. In our submission, the Irish Traveller Movement asked for a special independent service to address that and give the support that is needed. That needs to be supported with State resources to give confidence to the community that people are entitled to access the services in a culturally appropriate way. Currently that is not there.

I encourage the committee members to read the submission we submitted. It is really valuable in terms of what we recommended. I would be very happy to go back to any members or to any departmental officials after today's committee hearing. I again thank the committee members for giving us the opportunity to present and discuss the matter which was very helpful.

Mr. Deaglán Ó Briain:

The Department has funded and worked with the International Organization for Migration, IOM, office in Dublin to put a cohort of trained cultural mediators in place. The particular focus there is on victims of human trafficking, but we would be interested in and open to exploring that model with other groups, either by putting them in contact with the IOM or by having a direct relationship with them. There is considerable emphasis in the Department on increasing the supports that we provide for victims of crime and access to justice. We are definitely open to having discussions on whether that cultural mediation model might be extended. We might work further with the IOM and with other NGOs to do that.

Dr. Salome Mbugua:

I want to emphasise that there is a problem and a challenge of engaging with organisations and groups which are working directly with the victims meaning that people who are experiencing injustice are not able to access justice. These groups are very poorly resourced. If a group just goes and gives training and they are not from a specific background that is experiencing issues, it will not make any significant impact. It is very important that groups and organisations are resourced to be able to raise awareness among the people they reach on the ground and also to be able to support them and to support the service providers in front-line services.

I cannot overemphasise the importance of training that covers a broad range of areas. My organisation, AkiDwA, has been able to develop training to go into the training package on female genital mutilation, for example. It is good that it will be already included in the manual that they have. However, there are so many other areas. We are talking about cultural competency and so many other things we cannot have as part of that training. It is very important that the jury, the court and everybody understand about cultural competence and the issues that we are talking about. It is also important to support young people, in particular young migrants. It really will save us considerably if we invest in them, in particular. Our recommendation on the task force for youth would be very important to be able to explore the issues and how those issues can be handled.

I thank the committee for inviting us and talking with us. This is a good beginning in discussing these issues and how we can move forward.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for their participation in the meeting. We have had a good discussion. I have many things to take away with me. This concludes our engagement on the matter. I propose that we publish all the opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I again thank the witnesses for giving their time today on this extremely important topic.

We had initially proposed to have a meeting of the select committee to deal with Supplementary Estimates on Wednesday, 1 December at 5.30 p.m. Unfortunately, this needs to be postponed and a new date will be confirmed. The joint committee will meet again on Wednesday, 8 December at 5.30 p.m. to discuss pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the Garda Síochána (powers) Bill.